Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Jun 2022

Young Social Innovators: Discussion

I remind members to ensure that their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting because they interfere with the broadcasting equipment of the House, even when in silent mode.

The draft minutes of the meeting of 21 June have been circulated. Are the minutes agreed to? Agreed. I wish to advise members that at 1 p.m. the select committee will discuss a Bill. The Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, will be in attendance.

On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome Ms Rachel Collier, CEO, and Mr. Barry Peak, learning and training specialist, from Young Social Innovators, YSI. Mr. Gerry Fitzpatrick, chairperson, YSI, cannot attend due to illness. I also welcome a delegation from Coláiste Bhríde, Carnew, County Wicklow that comprises Ms Karen Murphy, teacher, Mr. Darragh Rawson, student, and Ms Annie Sheppard, student, who undertook the YSI project. The witnesses are here to discuss the YSI project. The format of the meeting is that I will invite Ms Collier to make a brief five-minute opening statement. She will be followed by Mr. Rawson and Ms Sheppard, who will share a five-minute slot. Members will then each have an eight-minute slot to ask questions and receive responses from the witnesses. I ask the witnesses and members to keep an eye on the time shown on the television screens during their slots. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statement on its website following the meeting.

Before we begin, members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

That also applies to the witnesses. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks by the Chair. It is imperative that they comply with such direction from the Chair.

I call on Ms Collier to make her opening statement to be followed by the other two statements. I will allow Deputy Ó Cathasaigh in to speak early because he has to attend another meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Ms Rachel Collier

Gabhaim buíochas le baill an choiste as a bheith anseo inniu i gcomhair chur i láthair Nuálaithe Sóisialta Óga. The vision of Young Social Innovators is to inspire, equip and empower young people to change the world for good. We do this through social innovation education. In essence, through the social innovation programmes we have designed, we engage thousands of young people, mainly teenagers, in social issues that concern them. In teams, they explore these issues, identify new responses or solutions and turn their ideas into action. It is team-based, action-focused and very much youth-led. Importantly for everyone, it exemplifies inclusive education.

Every year, we invite teenagers to take part in social innovation projects. They do this mainly through schools, Youthreach centres and youth services that sign up and receive access to our programmes and educator training. We train educators to facilitate teams of young people using our unique social innovation framework and resources. Teams at senior cycle are invited to a series of regional and national events. We operate a social impact fund on an annual basis and have given out over €100,000 to young people over the past 15 years. The Speak Out tour is another feature. We host it in the provinces and it gives an opportunity to young people to share their ideas locally, some of which are selected for our national awards.

Young Social Innovators, YSI, may be best known for its annual awards but that is just one element of our work. We have a competitive element, which is optional for young people, but our overriding purpose is to empower young people in society and to give them opportunities to contribute to creating a fairer and more sustainable world and to create much-needed social capital in Ireland, ultimately building our capacity to address the many challenges we face.

To date, more than 150,000 young people in some 600 schools have taken part in setting up over 5,000 youth-led innovations. YSI has trained more than 1,500 educators. Every year, approximately 220 post-primary schools and 14,000 to 15,000 young people get involved. We are also piloting a programme in primary schools.

YSI is, in fact, the originator of the concept of social innovation education in the world. This is a term we use to describe the learning and practice of using creativity to develop ideas to improve the well-being of people, communities and the planet. While social innovation and entrepreneurship and its methods were gaining momentum in the early 2000s, education in the area had yet to be discovered. It was virtually unheard of. It is informed by values of social justice, human rights and sustainable development and a firm belief that young people can and should contribute to communities and society in a much more pervasive way. It involves a pathway of change that incorporates design thinking, human-centred design and frameworks for critical and creative thinking.

The 2020 programme for Government commits to expanding access to social innovation programmes to all post-primary schools. With investment from the Tomar Trust and the Department of Education through the Dormant Accounts Fund, we are doing this by developing an area-based approach to youth-led social innovation. We now have local leaders in ten regions around the country. As well as supporting local schools, we are building networks of support for youth-led social innovation in different sectors from the business sector to the public, education and community sectors. We are ambitious in this approach. There is a challenge here that is not just for schools, education services and youth services. We are attempting to change a culture which has largely been exclusive of young people’s ideas and voices to one which is inclusive of youth voice, participation and innovation.

YSI is conscious that for this to happen, there is a need for us all to take up the challenge. It needs to be an important part of our very culture and the way we do things. We need all sectors on board to place a value on young people, their ideas and their innovations. They want to be involved, as we know from research we recently carried out with Amárach Research on the generation Z index, which was published last week and shows teenagers want to be involved. In fact, 78% of them want a greater say in future policies and planning, while 35% of them would consider becoming a political representative, which is very good news. Importantly, however, the vast majority, or 82%, do not believe young people have a say in how their area is planned, while a majority of members of generation Z approached for the survey wanted those over the age of 16 to have a vote and a say in Ireland.

We have seen many impactful projects over the years, not least those initiated by the young people here today, including the origin of the National Missing Persons Day, which was adopted by the then Department of Justice and Equality and which every year brings families together to remember those lost or missing. Many towns have benefited from YSI projects, including through environmental projects, playgrounds and gardens. This year, the high-impact award was given to Boomerang Youth Café in Drogheda, a project initiated by Our Lady’s College, Greenhills in the town. In Fingal, too, projects have been shown to be very impactful, such as in St. Fintan's High School, where the first ever student-led sustainable energy community for schools in the country was set up. Another school in Fingal mapped Lesotho in Africa, leading to much better planning in the country. Projects on policies include those relating to sex trafficking, human trafficking, sexting and cyberbullying - I could go on but the committee will hear more from the young people during the meeting. Our model of learning is being transferred from Ireland to new regions, in particular in Lebanon, Zambia and Sweden, through our international programme.

To address the challenges we face, we need to build Ireland's capacity and competencies in social change and innovation. Children and young people are an important part of that change who can and do deliver solutions to social problems. They should not be overlooked but should form an integral part of building our capacity to create the change we need to make. Our recommendations for the committee include support for the full roll-out of social innovation programmes; area-based support for youth-led social innovation; the development of an agency to support people under the age of 18 and to provide seed funding for their innovations; increasing research into youth-led social innovation; and support for our international programme to transfer knowledge to our partner countries as part of our remit to build peace in the world.

I thank Ms Collier. The rest of her statement will be published on the committee website. I now call on Mr. Rawson and Ms Sheppard to make some opening remarks.

Ms Annie Sheppard

We are honoured and grateful to be invited to speak here today on behalf of our class, our school and the young people of Ireland. We are especially grateful to the Chairman and Senator Casey for their support for our project.

Mr. Darragh Rawson

We represent Coláiste Bhríde Carnew, County Wicklow, a large mixed secondary school on the borders of counties Wicklow, Wexford and Carlow. Ours is one of 23 post-primary schools under the patronage of Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board, KWETB. In 2021, 969 students were enrolled.

Ms Annie Sheppard

Our school mission statement refers to "caring, challenging and achieving together", and that culture of academic excellence and our desire to be innovative make the Young Social Innovators module an attractive option for our transition year students each year. This module allows our students to work together to research and discuss issues that affect young people today. Once a class consensus is achieved on a topic, students start their project journey. Some projects merely want to raise awareness or money; we want to change the law with our project.

Mr. Darragh Rawson

During our initial classes, our teacher helped us list issues that were affecting young people. We did many exercises to explore these issues and it was truly shocking to see how many problems and obstacles exist for young people in Ireland in 2022. As we quickly learned, listing the issues that exist was not difficult. Our challenge was finding a topic all 22 students were interested in and passionate about. Our breakthrough came just before Christmas, when our teacher shared an article with us about body shaming and comparison culture.

The article explained how the American artist, Lizzo, had recently worn a sheer dress to an awards ceremony and, as a plus size woman, had been roundly criticised online. She is a talented artist who won awards at this particular ceremony, but none of the articles mentioned this fact. They focused solely on how she looked. Her talent and professional achievements faded into the background and all that people wanted to discuss was her choice of clothing. Interestingly, Rihanna had worn a similar dress previously and was widely applauded for her fashion choice. A class discussion started; we had found our passion.

Ms Annie Sheppard

After some research, we decided to focus on the pressure that the media put on people, especially young people, to look a certain way. What most people do not realise or accept is that a large percentage of images that bombard us each and every day are edited. This means that people are comparing themselves with an unrealistic and unachievable beauty standard. In our opinion, this can cause issues with confidence and anxiety and have an overall negative effect on the mental health of young people.

As a class, the most shocking image that we discovered was a Photoshopped image of Prince George of the United Kingdom in the American press. People are so desperate to achieve a perceived level of perfection that they are willing to Photoshop an image of a baby. There is no exact figure available for the number of images that are edited online, but estimates range from 30% to 70%.

Mr. Darragh Rawson

During the course of our research, we learned that Norway passed a law in 2021 that required social media influencers to declare if they had modified photos. This included filters on apps such as Snapchat. The UK attempted a similar Bill but it did not make its way through Parliament. We are proposing that a similar law be introduced in Ireland.

Ms Annie Sheppard

Our school community has been amazing and has completed numerous surveys for us, which gave us an idea of the scale of the issue. In our most recent school survey, which got more than 700 responses, 76% of our school felt that this law should be introduced in Ireland. Only 10% of respondents said that they never compared themselves with images online. Traditionally, this would have been seen as a problem that predominantly affected young girls, but our research indicated that this issue was affecting boys at an increasing rate.

Mr. Darragh Rawson

When we spoke on "The Ryan Tubridy Show", we received a significant response after the show aired. We have had two radio interviews on South East Radio and have had numerous articles about us appear in our local newspapers and online. We were delighted to receive €1,000 from YSI Den, which we spent hiring and designing a billboard on Main Street in Gorey raising awareness for our project. Senator Casey invited us to the Dáil in May to meet the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, about our project and the effect this issue was having on the mental health of young people in Ireland, particularly the concerning rise in eating disorders among both young males and females.

Ms Annie Sheppard

We understand that any such legislation would be difficult to police and would require the support of the various social media platforms, but on behalf of the young people of Ireland, we need this to happen. We are all individual and unique and this should be celebrated, not hidden behind filters and clever make-up. Children born today will never know life without a mobile phone or tablet, but let us at least give them a chance to grow up in an Ireland where they can look in the mirror and love who they are.

I thank our guests for their presentations. Before opening the floor to members, I welcome the other students in the Public Gallery - Mr. Adam Jordan, Ms Molly Hynes and Ms Chloe Cullen - as well as their principal, Ms Linda Dunne, and Ms Hannah Mulroe. It is important that we hear student voices at this committee, and Ms Karen Murphy is a teacher in Carnew. It is important that youths like our guests appear before the committee. During this Dáil session, we have heard from many student voices.

I call Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. He has to leave by 11.30 a.m., so if he asks his question, our guests can respond and he can read what they say in the Official Report.

The first meeting of the Joint Committee on Autism is happening today, so I apologise that I have to take off early.

I am delighted to see so many sustainable development goal badges on people around the committee room. It is an agenda that I feel strongly about, so I am delighted to see that it is represented in this social enterprise. While it is not strictly related to social enterprise, it is being marked out by the EU as an area where there is an opportunity for growth and to reinterpret our economic growth in a way that decouples us from emissions.

Our guests' work is inspiring. I am reminded very much about a debate that was held in the Dáil on Thursday.

Deputy Pringle brought forward a Bill on lowering the voting age to 16. There was a cross-party consensus that this is something that needs to be looked at. If we look at the work that the students from Coláiste Bhríde are producing it shows that they are politically engaged and that they are thoughtful about that political engagement. They are more than capable of being able to exercise a franchise and of deciding who they should be voting for to represent them. If we lowered the voting age to 16 that would have an impact on the manifestos of all parties in taking the concerns of young people more seriously and in putting them at the heart of politics going forward.

I am also reminded of an experiment I ran a long time ago when I was a teacher. I was teaching sixth class and I asked my pupils to cut out images from newspapers. We made four columns. One was if you were in a newspaper for doing something and the other was if you were in the newspaper for looking a certain way. We did that for images of men and women. It was incredibly striking when we saw how many men were in the newspaper for doing something and how many women were in it for looking a particular way. From what our guests are saying, that is not as stark a male and female issue as it was. Instagram and its influencers have changed that. Boys and men are increasingly coming under the same pressure to look a certain way that was more often associated with girls and women in the past, albeit that was not right.

I would like our guests to tell me more about the discussion. Achieving a consensus in a group of 22 people is not at all easy. In that context, I would like them to talk to me about the process of how they arrived at that notion with the class group. It sounds brilliant, and I will have to go away and have a look at the Norwegian legislation to see how easily it could be transposed to an Irish context but what were the other issues. Our guests spent a lot of time teasing through the issues that affect people of their age within a particular context. The school is at the border with Wicklow so it might be different from what students in a Dublin school, or a Waterford school in my context, would be thinking about. Can our guests give me an overview of what other issues came close to the mark in what they were hoping to take on? Did they see any projects from other schools that they thought were interesting and inspiring?

Mr. Darragh Rawson

At the start of the year, we had a YSI representative come down to talk to us on a Thursday morning. None of us knew what we were doing with YSI but we enjoyed the subject. After the YSI representative came in it opened our eyes to what we could talk about. Body positivity was a great idea for us to even think about and then there was cyberbullying-----

Ms Annie Sheppard

Sexual harassment.

Mr. Darragh Rawson

-----sexual harassment and sex trafficking. It took a long time debating and arguing but we put up a poll one day in mid-October or after and everyone voted. We decided that we would go with whichever one came out on top. Once we got the idea of "Be Aware, Don't Compare" we kept it going and the whole class got involved. Everyone loved the idea and we all thought it would work perfectly but we never thought we would be here today on the back of what we chose.

On the question on other schools, every other YSI project this year was amazing. We were looking at the mica project from the students in the Donegal school who were talking here last week. That project won the competition, and it was amazing. We were delighted to see them win it.

Ms Annie Sheppard

We saw another school fighting for girls to be allowed to wear trousers, which happened in the student council in our school so we found that relatable as well. At the start of the year, there were many class discussions and fights while we tried to pick a subject or topic that we were all passionate about, because you have to want it to go far. As Mr. Rawson said, it took a while for us but once we finally got our topic it took off from there.

We want to see this change, and we do not think that it just affects our school or area.

Instagram is a worldwide app and everyone in the world uses it. It is a problem, not just in Ireland. It is a worldwide problem but we would love to see a change being made, especially for Ireland. It is dreadful. When we spoke to the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, she told us about eating disorders and all. Loads of those problems, including mental health issues, are caused or influenced by social media platforms.

It got so much worse over the course of the pandemic when social media platforms were all people had access to. Could the witnesses tell me a little more about the Norwegian law? As Annie said, Instagram, TikTok, etc. are all over the world. Does the Norwegian law just impact influencers based in Norway or is there some way of making the reach a bit more international?

Ms Karen Murphy

My understanding is that it applies to Norwegian-based platforms and photographs that have a Norwegian audience. We did a lot of research into these things and we found out about the law trough a random Facebook post early in November. When we looked into it in more detail, we found it was something a lot of individual influencers had called for for years. Edited and photoshopped images online have a negative effect on people's mental health. As Annie said, it would be a very difficult thing to police in an Irish situation but we were struck by the lack of awareness among young people about the amount of edited imagery online. We visited primary schools as part of our project and did workshops and exercises with students from age nine to about 12. We got them to compare edited and unedited photographs to see the differences and the majority genuinely did not think these photographs were edited. They thought people actually look like this on a daily basis. They did not know the images were edited, although older students know. In our school, students are told about this as part of the SPHE module and other well-being modules, but students who are eight, nine, ten or 11 do not know it. They genuinely think this is what people look like. Anyone who has any kind of awareness of mental health will know these issues start at that young age. This is where this legislation could be most powerful.

I thank the Chairman for letting me in early.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh. I thank the witnesses for coming in and for the work YSI does nationally, as well as in the school in Carnew. It is very beneficial that Senator Casey is bringing them in to meet the Minister. That is very useful. I am a fan of YSI. I participated in 2005, which was not today or yesterday. We went to the national showcase and it was a very enjoyable experience. Our project was about a garden of remembrance for people who had died violently. I remember it being as much about what you learn from putting together the proposal and learning to work together as about the project itself. It was probably the first time we had to approach businesses to sponsor items. We were students approaching adults and it was a bit intimidating but people responded very well. One of the things about being a younger politician - I am not sure I am one anymore but I was in the younger generation for a while - is that you get asked questions about being a younger person in politics. People ask why more young people are not interested in politics. My answer to that was always that I did not agree. Politics is not just party politics. Wanting to improve your community is politics. Wanting to have an impact on policy is politics, whether that means getting involved in a community association, a youth club, or projects like this, which are very important in tackling issues around body image and the manipulation of imagery. This is a massive and growing issue, which probably affects this generation more than previous ones and is likely to continue to do so.

My first question is for Ms Collier and Mr. Peak. They spoke about integrating social innovation or youth social innovation into the school system as a whole. What is the current reach in that regard and what is the best method to achieve that aim? Is it curricular change or access to programmes? What way can that be best achieved?

My next question is for Darragh and Annie.

Deputy Ó Cathasaigh has addressed the issue in relation to the Norwegian legislation, which sounds interesting. I imagine that there are other avenues that can be pursued. I can imagine that education is potentially one of those. It occurs to me that tricky thing about some of these issues around manipulation of images is that sometimes, while we can intellectually understand that something has been manipulated, that does not mean that we do not still have an emotional response to it. The two things can happen at the same time.

Awareness will be important in people's education of the online space generally. This includes everything that happens online. It relates to what is real and what is not, as well as what is plausible and what is not. Aside from the legislation, which I intend to look at, as does Deputy Ó Cathasaigh, what other areas of policy change can we in this institution help to address this issue?

Mr. Darragh Rawson

Awareness will be a big part in this regard. We will need as much help as we can get. Legislation is not easily changed, as we have said. It is not even a case of just legislative change as we want to bring this into the view of teachers in primary schools, or any teachers at all, to inform people as young as four or five years old and in order that they can learn. We want to get this into their heads that this content can be changed, so that they do not look in newspapers and think that it is real, when it is fake. We want to make it well known that not everything is real. We think that people should have to make it known that when they change something, it has been changed. That is my way of looking at it.

Ms Karen Murphy

I agree with Darragh. From doing this project this year, it has been crazy to see the amount I learned. On Instagram or whatever, as a teenage girl or, in Darragh's case, as a teenage boy, you would sit, scroll and compare yourself to these images. We brought awareness to this issue through the project. We sat back and thought that particular images were altered or filtered or something. Education, as well as legislation, is important. We had two main goals at the start of our project. Our first goal was to educate the young people of Ireland. Our second, bigger goal was to change the legislation. We think that we have impacted our local areas. We went to all the primary schools. They definitely got something out of it. We would be interested in committee members trying to put something into the system to educate the young people.

Before I move on to ask a question of Mr. Peak, I will say that it is a fair project and initiative to come before an Oireachtas committee. I say "Well done" to them and to all of their fellow classmates. They are a credit to their communities, to their families and to their schools. Well done to them and fair play.

Ms Karen Murphy

Thank you.

Ms Rachel Collier

The Deputy asked about the reach of Young Social Innovators. We are in approximately one third of the post-primary schools. We want to be in all of the post-primary schools. This would be more achievable at senior cycle, where we are mostly, if there was a space for this in transition year. The new junior cycle curriculum has created more space for applied learning projects, such as in the area of social innovation. There could be more space at the senior cycle for applied learning. That would help. We could also have different access points for social innovation. This is very important. Whether a person is in Youthreach, in a school, at primary level or in a community service, they should be able to access social innovation methods, learning and support. That is what we are trying to do. It is a matter of creating that pipeline from primary right up to the end of a person's teens. There is some investment in third level but not so much in second level. That would make a difference. Does Mr. Peak have a view?

Mr. Barry Peak

With regards to reach, it is important to differentiate between quantitative reach and the types of schools we are reaching into. We do very well numerically, with 220 schools around the country and approximately 14,000 young people each year. That is great. However, we are really passionate about making sure that all young people have the opportunity to benefit from social innovation education. We therefore work actively with Delivering Equality of Opportunity In Schools, DEIS, schools. We work with Youthreach centres. We are increasing our reach into primary schools. This is important to us, because we think that there is real value in social innovation education. The projects that the kids are doing are incredible, in terms of their outcomes, the impact on the community and the difference they are making in social justice. However, it is also having an impact on them as well, given the skills they are learning in the areas of creativity, critical thinking, innovation and resilience.

We think all young people could benefit from those sort of skills.

Not unlike some of the committee members, I was a teacher for many years. It seems to me that critical thinking and creativity was at the back of the book for the good kids, but we think all kids ought to have exposure to that to get the learning from it. It is very important to us that our reach is increased into DEIS schools and Youthreach centres. We are currently working with the City of Dublin Education and Training Board, ETB, on a Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, level 4 module, which will enable us to go into community training centres and other institutions where we believe young people can benefit from social innovation education. They can benefit from the projects and the communities they live in can benefit from them.

Does anybody else want to add to that?

Ms Rachel Collier

I remember Deputy Ó Laoghaire's project very well. It was the garden of remembrance in Cork. I was wondering if it is still there.

I am afraid it is not because Cork City Council renovated the park. It was there for about ten years, and the school continued to maintain it. It was very positive. I am sorry it is not there still.

I thank all the witnesses for coming in this morning, in particular as it is during their school holidays. I am conscious that there is a huge amount of pressure on young people these days in terms of social media, the climate crisis and peer pressure, but it is important that they are informed as well that it is a great time to be alive compared to even 50 or 100 years ago. It is a great time to be a young person growing up. I know that there are a lot of pressure such as the climate crisis and social media, but there were pressures on every generation. One hundred years ago, kids did not have the prospects of health or education the young people before the committee have, so it is a really good time to be alive.

I will ask a question of Ms Sheppard first about the pressure that is on young people when they see social media. From her assessment, do young people believe what they see when they see influencers on social media? What are the pressures on young women or girls from seeing influencers on Instagram and other social media platforms?

Ms Annie Sheppard

I can say 100% that, as silly as it sounds, you do end up comparing yourself and think that this is real. It is about trying to look as skinny, pretty or perfect as models online. The Deputy has probably heard of the famous Kardashians. We were talking with Ms Murphy in class and she said that after you have children, you are often housebound and you do not get out of your pyjamas for that long.

I agree with Ms Murphy on that.

Ms Annie Sheppard

Then we saw Khloé Kardashian on Instagram sitting up in bed looking all glamorous and perfect. She had her abs and everything back within two or three days. It is so unrealistic, but at the same time, when you go onto social media first - I do not want to target Instagram - your head automatically compares. I do not know why that is, but it does.

It is great that Ms Sheppard spots that. Does she think that many young people do not realise that these influencers are exclusively about making money?

Ms Annie Sheppard

Definitely not.

They do not know that.

Ms Annie Sheppard

No, definitely not. It is easy to say that they are, but as a teenager you do not stop and think. You think straight away that you should look like that or be like that when it is not true, and it is fake.

Okay. What are the pressures on boys? Is there a pressure to be good looking or to be a brilliant sportsman?

Mr. Darragh Rawson

There are many pressures. I am a very sporty person. Everything comes down to sport or to your looks. The hardest part is admitting that you do compare yourself. I do not say that all boys do, but most boys my age compare themselves with other sportsmen or models - any boy or man who has the perfect body or the best skill set on a soccer team or football team. Comparisons will be made. While our project will help with comparisons in terms of looks, we will always have comparisons with sportsmen and sportspeople.

What can be done about these comparisons that young people are exposed to? It strikes me as primarily an issue of information. There is a false world out there that they are observing through social media. They think it is the real world. How do we cope with that and try to inform them that it is not the case?

Ms Karen Murphy

The goal is to get information to the relevant people early. Telling people aged 13, 14 or 15 years that they are fake is too late. In one's head, one has already decided at that stage that one is fat, one is ugly, one has bad hair or one has bad whatever. In addition, as Annie mentioned, for me on a personal level the thing with people having babies and appearing five minutes later on social media in a bikini is truly detrimental. There is the incidence of post-natal depression, especially in isolation during Covid-19, and then seeing an image of somebody like that online. Even though one knows it is fake and that the person has a personal chef and has taken 27,000 shots in order to get that one shot, the rational part of one's brain is put to the side and that other part just comes to the fore. One partly believes it and one still feels negative about oneself.

Our goal from the start has been education and to get to young people early. In one of the schools we visited, Clonegal National School, my son was in the class. He had heard me, not that he ever listens to me, talk about this project since we started. However, it was only when Darragh, Annie and the rest of the class came in and showed them that they listened. They listened to young people; they did not listen to me. I tell them all the time that something is fake, but they listen to the young people.

Ms Karen Murphy

He remembered everything they said.

The background to it, obviously, is to sell things. The picture we found the most shocking was one of Prince George. It was on the front of US tabloid weekly. There was a before and after picture of him and it showed how they edited and Photoshopped it. Prince George at the time was perhaps a year old. They changed his eye colour, made his hair blonder and changed his skin, all for a perceived notion that this is what the American market wanted, whereas the picture in another market would be totally different. It just shows the lengths people will go to create this fake image.

To answer the question, get the information to them very early, so primary school is the key to this.

One of the consequences of social media, unfortunately, and this is not just something to do with young people in politics, is that many people do not think for themselves anymore. When they are faced with an issue, sometimes a political issue, they look online to see the opinion of the people they follow online on it. How do we tackle that, to get people to think for themselves from a young age?

Mr. Barry Peak

I have some background in this because I taught politics and sociology for a number of years in Northern Ireland. I was fairly well versed with the media, although it was approximately ten years ago so social media did not have the same impact. Education and critical thinking are key to it. Many of the things we do in YSI encourage young people to be more critical thinkers, to engage with a variety of media sources, to identify those they can trust and to think about things such as reliability and validity. They need a type of toolkit whereby they can look at images and information and work out for themselves who are the authentic, reliable and valid voices. That is very important.

What is also important is that all this comes down to social justice. It is all about enabling young people to fulfil their potential and live the most empowered lives they can regardless of the social issues that the young people choose, whether it is about body image, mental health or racism. Every year we see a plethora of subjects. It is all about social justice and enabling young people and everybody in society to reach their full potential. Social media is an important part of that, but it is very important that we get young people to understand that they can use their agency to assert some control over their lives and to have an impact on social, economic, political, cultural and community life. That is the essence of what we do. That enables young people to be more critical thinkers and enables them to have more of an understanding of all facets of life, which will empower them as they go through their lives.

Increasingly, society is characterised by uncertainty and precarity so young people need to be critical thinkers and they need to be resilient, creative, adaptable and innovative. Learning those things in school and encouraging them to behave in those ways will help them as they navigate this society that is characterised by uncertainty, flux and precarity.

I thank the witnesses. My time is up. I am sorry I did not get to Ms Collier.

Is there any chance I could ask my questions now? I am due to be at the autism committee at noon.

I was due to be in the Committee on Environment and Climate Action at 11 a.m. and I sent an email at the time.

The Senator came to me looking to go earlier and I said I would let her do so.

Maybe we could both ask our questions.

I will get both Senator Pauline O'Reilly and Senator Flynn to ask their questions and I will make sure that a comprehensive reply is sent to both of them.

I thank the Chair. I would not normally ask to do this but we have an important issue in the Committee on Environment and Climate Action as well and I always feel like I am juggling these two committees and important topics.

I have not been a teacher and I have come from a self-learning background. There are probably no fewer people now who cannot think for themselves than there were previously. It is not to do with social media but it is to do with the education system and that is why we are here. I have kids who are generation Z and generation alpha. YSI is being a leader and the results of what it is doing will be seen by generation alpha because they are the ones who were born in 2010 and after, and as the witnesses have said, it is about getting to people early. They are all looking at "Love Island" and all of those things and they are seeing what is coming up on Instagram around those people. There are many more pressures on boys now than there ever were before. I never experienced that when I was young and it was all about girls and women and what they looked like. There was not the same professionalism in sport before but people are in the gym all day long now because they get paid for it and then young boys are expected to behave like that. I admire that Mr. Rawson brought that point up because he is doing a huge service for an awful lot of boys and young men out there. Part of what I wanted to say is to ask what our young guests can do as advocates. It should not just be about changing the system and we have a number of opportunities that I would love to come back in on. There are opportunities for us to have young people mentoring young people and to do so throughout our education system so that it is not, as was said, about older people like me talking to young people.

I am conscious that Senator Flynn wants to come in and I want to make sure that she can so I will ask my other question and then allow her to come back in. We have a number of Bills going through the Houses and I am more than willing to speak to the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, on behalf of our guests on the ideas they have around online imagery. We have the online Bill coming before the Seanad the week after next and I will bring up those ideas with the Minister. Maybe there is an opportunity to do it through the commissioner rather than just through legislation. We should leave it with the commissioner to decide what we should do.

There is also the matter of education, which is separate in some ways, and the education system needs to be changed. I know our guests are here to talk about their programme but any time I ask anyone who comes in here about transition year, including officials and Department staff, I say that schools in general should look more like transition year. We need to have mentors and these opportunities for young people in every school year, not just in one year out of their lives. They constantly revert to the idea that we should do that during transition year. Is there a recommendation I can come out with from this committee to show how this can be done in first, second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth years? I would love to hear our guests' ideas around that. I am sorry that I have to run to the other committee and I thank our guests.

I thank our guests for coming in today. I am a qualified youth worker and I love young people. We heard questions like whether young people can think for themselves. They bloody well can and they can do it well. I support the call for young people to be able to vote at 16, as my colleague spoke about earlier. Two weeks ago we had children from a YSI programme in to talk about what has been happening with mica.

Why would they not be able to speak very eloquently and also talk about the issues that are impacting young people in Donegal? Young people know the answers. I am listening as a mother of two very young girls. There should be something in place in order that our young people feel safe and the Ireland that they are in today should not have to put pressure on them to look a certain way on social media and behave in a certain way. Our young people are very unique in their own way and very clever and intelligent. As adults, we undermine our young people an awful lot. Young people are fairly undermined in here, as well. I am privileged to be on this committee, because from the two years I have been sitting on it, I know that young people are at the heart of the conversation in education. That is great to see. I would support any legislation to protect our young people online.

With regard to YSI, it would be powerful for our young people from ethnic minority groups also to be among the young innovators. When I was 17, I was on a student youth forum which really empowered me, as a member of the Traveller community. I was educated and able to be an educator to the group. I would be interested to hear about that. This committee will support in any way it can, as will I, in terms of protecting young people online.

The lives of Billie and Lacey are much better for having young people such as the witnesses who are well able to speak up. The young people never let anyone take that from them. I will give advice. I remember being asked, when I was very young, why I would be the sheep that follows when I could be the leader that leads.

I wish to know whether the witnesses have discussions along with Northern Ireland projects. Are they engaged in any cross-Border programmes? Is there anything else they very much wish to get across to the committee?

Mr. Darragh Rawson

I will reply to Senator Pauline O'Reilly's question about what we think we can do. She is saying that we are speaking up on behalf of our school. At the start of the year, we thought it would be just that. We never thought we would be hear today to speak on behalf of the young boys and girls of Ireland. Our project could make a difference. Aside from education, we could help with legislation change, no matter what way the Senator can get it in to legislation for us. The sooner the better. It will have a significant impact on Irish young people in order that we will be a step ahead and have more confidence to speak out and talk about it in years go come.

Ms Annie Sheppard

I could not agree more with Mr. Rawson. I do not have much more to say.

Ms Karen Murphy

Everything comes back to the fact of the power of the student voice. As Ms Collier and Mr. Peak have said here today, the purpose of YSI is to show students that they have the power to make change in the world. We did YSI training in which we were told that the one thing the facilitator must pass to his or her students is that they have the potential to change somebody's life with what they will do in class today. It is not that one cannot do that in every other class, but a facilitator has to let students believe that they can make the change. In recent years, because of Covid and for various other reasons, students have not had that opportunity. For Mr. Rawson, Ms Sheppard and the students in our school and our community to see the change these students have made, and to hear the discussions we had in the art room of Coláiste Bhríde at 9 a.m. on a Thursday morning happening in the media or on national radio, shows the power of student minds and what they can achieve when they work together.

To answer the question about how it can fit into the school curriculum and where it can be fit in across other years, there is massive potential in that regard but it must be student-led in order for it to be as powerful as it is in transition year.

Ms Rachel Collier

Following up from what Ms Sheppard and Ms Murphy have said, we have recently done research on social innovation education which shows the power of youth voice. Youth voice is not an outcome of the well-being of students but is actually an enabler of well-being among young people. They need to be heard and they need to contribute. That is interesting. For all the factors that have been researched on the well-being of young people, this is the first time it has been shown that youth voice is integral to well-being. That is interesting.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly asked what we can change in education. We have schools that adopt a whole-of-school approach to social innovation. It is integral to what they do and how they embrace youth-led learning and youth voice in the schools. They use the community of students to solve problems inside and outside the school. There should be more project-based work allowed and space provided for it in post-primary schools. The purpose of all those projects can be for societal good. Why not? We promote profit-making businesses in school without a problem. We promote science and technology. Why do we not promote all of those things for societal good? It can happen. Our school in Lebanon has trained all its teachers and it is core to all their subject areas. Any project is done with societal good in mind so the young people learn those values very early.

Mr. Barry Peak

The argument about this type of learning being crammed into transition year has been well rehearsed and was put forward by many organisations when the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, did its consultation. In other parts of post-primary education, there is simply not enough space in the curriculum to focus, for example, on social justice and the things that really interest young people. Particularly in the final two years of the senior cycle when students are preparing for their leaving certificate examinations, it does become a race for points for university entrance. That means there is no space in the curriculum for young people to do things that give them joy and pleasure, and which make an impact on the communities in which they live. We consider that very important.

From my own experience of the university and college admission system in the North, I know university places are offered on the basis of a student's personal statement, which includes the community work and sporting achievements of a student. Students are, therefore, incentivised to do those things whereas the system in the South is very much focused on points. There can be changes in the education system that incentivise young people to do this type of learning because we know it has benefits for them. Using their voices and agency can have an impact.

We also know there is a correlation between educational attainment and different types of thinking, such as systems thinking, design thinking and critical thinking. Those are the things that are lost in a lot of mainstream education. Creating the space to allow young people to do those things will have an impact on them as individuals and the communities in which they live.

I thank the Chairman for inviting representatives of Coláiste Bhríde to make a presentation on their Be Aware, Don't Compare campaign. It is a privilege for me to welcome Ms Sheppard, Mr. Rawson, Ms Cullen, Ms Hynes, Ms Mulroe and Mr. Jordan, and indeed Ms Murphy and Ms Dunne, the principal. It is my second time to welcome them to Leinster House. I am here not to question them but to thank them for their campaign. I will support them into the future to see can we bring some form of legislation through this House in response to their requests.

The most recent occasion on which representatives from Coláiste Bhríde came to Leinster House, we had a great engagement with the Minister of State, Deputy Butler. The Minister, Deputy Foley, visited Coláiste Bhríde in Carnew and the students had two minutes to make a pitch to her. That was when they grabbed my attention initially. Since then, I have been honoured to be involved with this important campaign.

It is important that we listen to their needs and to what they are asking us to do in Leinster House to address this issue. It is a simple ask. They have asked us to introduce legislation to provide for the labelling of photographs that have been cropped, adjusted or filtered and for that to be clearly identified. I congratulate these students on their massive PR campaign, which included the local press, the unveiling of a billboard in Gorey when we had a great day out, their engagement with Ryan Tubridy on the "The Ryan Tubridy Show" and their engaging with two Ministers, one in Leinster House and one in Carnew. It is very special and a privilege for them to make it to a committee hearing today and I wish them the best of luck with their proposal. Theirs is a simple ask.

When it comes to our physical health, we have no issue labelling products that cause harm, be it food products carrying a label with a fat or sugar content, alcohol products with a label indicating the damage alcohol can cause or cigarettes with a label indicating smoking is harmful. The students have raised the impact photographs have on their mental health. Why can such photographs not be labelled in terms of protecting young people's mental health and addressing the issue from a health perspective? It would also have an educational and online impact. The simple way to address it might be to introduce a legislative measure from a medical point of view and from the point of view of the impact such images have on young people and others. We all know the impact social media has on our lives and how disturbing it can be.

I thank the Chairman for allowing me to contribute on this issue. It is big honour for me as a Wicklow person to welcome students from a Wicklow school to this committee hearing. I will support the students in whatever way I can to introduce legislation on this issue through the education system, through online media regulation or through the health area. The students' ask is simple. Let us label photographs that have been cropped, altered or changed. All they are asking us to do today is to introduce such legislation. We know the impact such images have on our mental health. I thank all of our guests for coming to Leinster House, especially, as my colleague said, during their holidays. They did not even get a day off school today for their trip to Leinster House. I thank them for working with me and it has been an honour to work with them.

Does anybody want to comment on what Senator said?

Ms Rachel Collier

I would like to thank Senator Casey. It is important a voice is given to young people in Leinster House. This is a great example of how young people can effect change. We had another theme, which I mentioned, on the issue of sexting. I was completely unaware of the impact it had on young people until they told us. They subsequently met the Garda Commissioner, who will examine the guidelines on that. The legislation around sexting is totally inappropriate for young people. Often young people see things we do not see because we are not exposed to them. They see things way ahead of time. They were a major force in the marriage equality campaign. LGBT rights have been talked about by young social innovators for years. They see things in advance of the rest of us. Therefore, it is good to give them a voice.

Mr. Darragh Rawson

On behalf of Coláiste Bhríde in Carnew, I thank the committee for the invitation to our YSI class to come to talk here today. It was a privilege to speak here and hopefully our point has been made.

I must keep an eye on the clock because I will be raising a Commencement matter in the Seanad. I reckon I will cover what I want to say in the allocated eight minutes. It has been very refreshing to listen to all the students. Senator Pat Casey is an incredible advocate for the school and what they are doing. He shared with me a video that they put together, which is excellent. I commend them on that.

In terms of social innovators in general, YSI is an incredible movement.

It is so important all our young people, no matter where they are, have the opportunity to learn about social entrepreneurship and the importance of teamwork. I often think teamwork and collaboration is so important when we go into the world of work and no matter what we do, we cannot do it in isolation. Yet, when we are in school and marked in our State exams, there is nothing really to give the opportunity for that type of collaboration to be tested.

This particular committee has spent much time over the past two years looking at reform of the leaving certificate. This should be one of the areas in which we should be able to consider examination in some other way. It is such a big part of life and yet we are marked for going in and completing a paper in isolation. I am interested in general in comments relating to that.

That the witnesses have chosen this area is really important. I am very proud to be a member of this committee but I am also a member of the education committee for the Council of Europe and that is where 46 countries come together. There were 47 countries but after 24 February we booted out Russia because it was no upholding the principles of human rights, democracy and the rule of law. We have the opportunity to look at different areas that affect education. I was in Strasbourg last week and we spoke much about online communication and cybersecurity. With the permission of the delegation, I would be delighted to be able to bring this project to the attention of my colleagues and the secretariat so we can have a discussion with colleagues from Norway about the legislation and what difficulties they may have had. I note from the presentation that the UK tried to do this but was not able to bring it through. We must see what are the potential pitfalls.

The work done on body image and body shaming is very important. Every political party has a think-in every year and I happen to be a member of the same party as Senator Casey. Last year, after our think-in, an article was written that body-shamed and clothes-shamed a number of representatives, particularly women. There were six women named in that article and I was one of them, and we were slagged about what we were wearing. Some of the men, although they were not photographed, were mentioned as well.

A number of women contacted me afterwards because they felt it was a really bad message for young people and particularly young girls that politicians were being judged on what they wore as opposed to what they were saying or the key matters on which we were meeting. I want to give the witnesses some time to respond on that.

I love that Ms Sheppard finished by saying "love who you are" because it is such a strong message that cuts across everything. It cuts across gender identity, ethnicity and all of that. The projects that came in first, second and third place are really important. They concerned food waste, mica and menstrual disorders. We in the women's caucus have put much work into efforts against period poverty and it is in the programme for Government. I hope measures against it will be introduced in September.

Generally speaking, this is a wonderful programme and I wish all the witnesses well. Perhaps Mr. Rawson or others would like to comment on some of the remarks I made around value in marking exams that take in elements of collaboration and teamwork. I also asked if I could be given permission to bring this forward on a European level.

Ms Annie Sheppard

Definitely. We could not thank the Senator enough if she brought that up on a European level because it is the only way it will expand and grow. The Senator also spoke about marking exams. I am not too good in school from an academic perspective but I enjoy group work.

I play team sports and everything, including camogie and football. I feel that at the end of the day, it is all just pushed into one exam. We sit at our own desks with our own paper and we are marked on this one paper. It does not give us the chance to reflect who we are as people outside of academic results. Therefore, I definitely agree with the Senator.

Mr. Darragh Rawson

I would be like Annie in that I would not test overly well sometimes. It was the same with YSI this year. None of us would do anything by ourselves. If there was an interview, we went in twos and threes. We refused to go by ourselves. As a group, we can make our point. If one person forgets something, the others can help out. When we go in to sit a State exam, we are on our own. Someone who is sick, for example with a headache, has to sit an exam that could be the difference between becoming a doctor or becoming a blocklayer. The points we get can dictate the rest of our lives. In Northern Ireland they have personal statements, where students can say how they are in communities. We found with YSI that some of us like speaking in public but others do not. Some people prefer the quiet approach. I think the examination format for the leaving certificate, with everyone all by themselves, is very harsh. I would like to see some form of teamwork brought into that.

Ms Karen Murphy

I know from working with the guys that group work allows students to work to their strengths. Darragh did not mention that we did a class election and we nominated a project leader and a project vice leader. Molly who is in the Visitors Gallery is our project leader. Each of the students pitched to the class on how they would direct the project, what they would do and what their leadership style would be. The students decided who should lead the project, based on the merits of each individual. Molly and Darragh have done a fantastic job in steering the class. The students are clever. They know each other's strengths. Within our class we had individual groups working on design, logos and content for our school app and social media. Working within groups allowed the students to work to their strengths. Different people have different strengths. An exam-based system only works for some people. I am thinking of that famous cartoon where they have lots of different animals together and they tell them that success is getting to the top of a tree. In the same group of animals there is a goldfish and a monkey. The exam structure at the moment does not suit every student but group work allows students to shine who would not necessarily shine on an exam paper.

I have a couple of questions I would like to put to the witnesses. I will go to the students first and maybe Ms Murphy will come in afterwards. The committee has done a lot of module work on school bullying, including a report the witnesses might have seen, and on leaving certificate reform, as Senator O'Loughlin has mentioned. The issue that came forward in both modules of work was social media and its effects on mental health, as Senator Casey has said.

We do not want to mention the dreaded word of suicide but we all know people who have died by suicide because of social media, secondary school students especially. I have encountered it in my own constituency of Wexford. We have had families communicating to this committee whose son or daughter died by suicide as a result of bullying on social media. Did that form part of any of the research the witnesses are doing around social media? There are a lot of people who do not want to talk about it, but I think it is so important that we talk about it and we make people aware that there is a lot of help out there. There was an item on Ryan Tubridy's radio show this morning about a third year student at Maynooth University who committed suicide, although the show did not say it was because of social media or anything like that. There is a lot of help out there but often people are afraid to go and ask for it, or maybe they are afraid it is not there.

Did that form part of our guests’ research? Did it form part of their conversations with fellow students? Did it form part of their research on social media companies? Do they have any interaction with social media companies such as Snapchat, Instagram, Twitter and Facebook? Was it just based on research within their student cohort?

Ms Annie Sheppard

We have not had any contact with the big social media platforms. I do not think we would get very far with them, to be honest. To go back to what the Chairman stated in respect of suicide and things like that, the problem is that it is difficult to accept that one needs help and then go and look for it and find it. Unfortunately, some people think it is easier to just-----

Ms Annie Sheppard

We were talking to the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, who gave us leaflets for our school detailing all the help that one can get for depression, eating disorders, etc. There is loads of help. Our class know the help is available but not everyone knows that. Our class is only a group of 22 students in County Wicklow. There are thousands of students in Ireland who probably do not know.

Does Ms Sheppard believe it comes down to the student having the confidence to seek help? Alternatively, is it that the student believes he or she is too big and a macho man – I am not sure what the equivalent term is for women – and does not need help? Is it down to confidence or is it because of peer pressure? Are students worried about what their peers will think of them for looking for help? Nowadays, people can privately look for help, which is good. They can talk about it if they go to seek help. They need the support of other people. Some people think they do not need the support of other people.

Ms Annie Sheppard

It is a bit of both, to be honest. Personally, I would be too stubborn to go for help. If I managed to get to that stage, I would keep convincing myself that I was okay or whatever. On another level, I feel like people do not have the confidence to go and look for help. They are either too embarrassed or they want to deny that they are not okay. We know it is out there but I do not think it is shown enough that it is out there for people, especially young people.

Mr. Darragh Rawson

My take is that we all know there are helplines and people to talk to but, as Ms Sheppard said, some people do not want to admit that they are not okay. They think that if they admit it, then they are not okay. They refuse to think they will ever be okay. In my opinion, if people get to the stage where they might need help, speaking to somebody, even once, to get it of their chest could make a big difference. We recommend advertising it more. It is a big problem on social media that people get shamed for the way they look or dress, or even things they say. It is all peer pressure. The confidence level of teenagers nowadays has dropped significantly as a result of social media.

One of the recommendations of the report on school bullying was that there should be a therapeutic counsellor on-site in schools to help students. I have spoken to the INTO on this and in recent days I spoke to the clerk to the committee on it as well. There is a programme running in the south of the UK. I hope the committee will discuss this in September and visit the UK to look at the programme rolled out there in respect of therapeutic counsellors. The therapeutic counsellor would be a person who is on-site in primary and post-primary schools so that a student does not have to make a phone call to get help. For example, a therapeutic counsellor could be in the school in Carnew on Mondays and Tuesdays and in Gorey Community School on Wednesdays, Thursdays and Fridays. It would depend on the size of the school. This person would be very well known to the students and teachers.

Home-school liaison officers have made an immense difference in schools. I presume there is a home-school liaison officer in our guests’ school. They are there to find out if there are issues back in the home. The therapeutic counsellors would be on-site in schools.

Do the witnesses believe something like that would be of assistance to students and that students would be more comfortable in going to talk to someone on-site who they know is there for them and who is fully confidential?

Mr. Darragh Rawson

Once a person is brought in to talk it will take a while for people to go to them but once they are in the school and people have made relationships and start saying, "They are great to talk to", then people will start visiting them and it will make a difference. When people know that everything said is confidential and they can get help, it will make a difference. Still even at that, if you were going to visit them, you would not want anyone to know that you are there. If I was to visit them, I would not like anyone else to know just in case. I am not saying you are going to get slagged but you could get slagged because people will wonder why you are there. If your visit and what was said were completely confidential it would make a big difference in schools.

Ms Annie Sheppard

I agree, definitely. It would be about getting comfortable and trusting the counsellor more than anything. As Mr. Rawson said, we now live in an age when you would get slagged for seeking help. It has reached the stage where you would be teased or slagged. Boys especially would be considered weak, instead of it being just accepted that they need help.

Ms Karen Murphy

We in Carnew are fortunate in that we have a counsellor on-site a couple of days a week. She is amazing, fantastic and a wonderful support to our students. To go back to the first issue on bullying and social media, one thing I took from this project is that for the majority of young people, their entire lives revolve around social media. We very rarely hear a conversation that does not start with, "Did you see that online?" or "She said that online". Every conversation they have revolves around online media. When something negative about them is put online, because their world is social media, their world crumbles down. They do not have the sense of how transient and short-lived things are online that it will blow over in two or three days. When you are in your world and something bad has been said about you online or a picture or post or whatever it is that has caused someone to go to that dark place, it seems like their entire world has turned against them. The fact that it will blow over in two or three days and there will be another bikini thing or something to talk about down the line, the young people do not understand that. Counselling would be of massive assistance to them.

A cohort of students was very much involved in the programme and the research, but in the wider school from first year up, did students take an interest in what was being done, over time? Did they come to the researchers with ideas? Did the researchers seek their opinions? Was research done by a questionnaire in the school?

Mr. Darragh Rawson

Once we came up with our idea for the Be Aware, Don't Compare campaign we had surveys sent around the school. No matter what we needed from the school, they gave help. Between the radio interview with Ryan Tubridy and the publicity in the school, we were nearly like celebrities walking around for a while. We went around one day giving out stickers we got from the Young Social Innovators group. We got balloons and banners. When we did that, it lightened the mood in school. On the days when the billboard went up-----

Ms Annie Sheppard

The social area events.

Mr. Darragh Rawson

We were in the social area in our school by the canteen, doing face painting and guessing games with photoshop; it was a great day. We have our school's complete support, it has our back for as long as we need. Every student in the school is backing us and appreciates what we have done.

Ms Annie Sheppard

Not only have we come to the end of our TY journey and are, unfortunately, heading into fifth year next year, we will not get as much time to focus on our project YSI.

Are you saying you are going to have to study next year?

Ms Annie Sheppard

So my mammy thinks. We are happy to hand it over to next year's TY students until they get what we want.

I say sincerely to the witnesses and to the students in the Public Gallery that they are role models. They should not forget that. They have shown leadership within the school and people will look up to them. There could be people senior to them who will still look up to them.

The students should never forget that they stood out from the crowd for what they have done and that they are role models.

I wish to talk about some services within the school. I have nothing against the principal, who might make representations to the Minister next. On the library services in the school, were they used for any of the research during the programme?

Ms Karen Murphy

We are an iPad-based school and the great thing about that is that the responses from the student body were immediate, because we all had access to the Internet. I do not recall that we actually used the library for anything. We did have many meetings in the library. Our library space is quite big. In respect of information, though, we were lucky that we had the Internet at our fingertips. We used Microsoft Forms for our surveys. We had 969 students in our school as of September, and the majority of our surveys received 700 or 800 responses and we got them immediately. From an environmental perspective, there was also no paper trail. To answer the Chair's question, we did not use the library for research purposes.

I asked that question because the committee is doing some work on school libraries and their importance, whether they are digital libraries or libraries of hard copy materials. Regarding the YSI and programmes North and South, and I know there is a big difference in the respective sizes, how would activity and impact compare in this regard?

Ms Rachel Collier

Unfortunately, there are no schools in Northern Ireland participating in the YSI programme. We had them involved a few years ago. Mr. Peak may be better positioned to address this question, but I think Northern Ireland schools have a much tighter curriculum and do not have any space for this kind of work.

Mr. Barry Peak

In the context of the A-levels, there is no equivalent of transition year. Not to put too fine a point on it, transition year is a godsend to us and organisations like ours. It gives schools the space to undertake these kinds of programmes. In Northern Ireland, a somewhat similar programme is run by Co-operation Ireland, I believe. Again, that is very much about citizenship and active citizenship. What we do, however, is unique because it is about the innovation aspect and the learning that comes with it. I wish we had a presence in Northern Ireland because young people there would really benefit from the programme. We talked about uncertain and precarious futures and there is definitely a cohort of young people in that category. We need support on the ground. We need somebody in Northern Ireland to help us out, help us to navigate the school curriculum and identify where this programme would be best positioned. It could be that it would fit in with what in Northern Ireland is called key stage 3, which would be similar to the junior cycle here. We have not given up and I am sure there are opportunities.

Ms Rachel Collier

The programme is wide open to schools in Northern Ireland. We would embrace schools there.

The YSI programme is seeking to expand further. Is this solely a matter for the Department of Education or is there also a role for the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth?

Ms Rachel Collier

Yes, we cut across different Departments, a bit like social innovation itself. We cut across the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and the Department of Education. The latter Department, through the Dormant Accounts Fund, is trying to help us to scale up the programme and introduce it in more post-primary schools. We also see an important role for the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth in the youth participation sphere. Additionally, the Department of Rural and Community Development is a major player and supporter for us because of the generation of the voluntary effort among young people in particular. That is a very important in the context of the national strategy on volunteering as it gets young people involved. Much of the time, their involvement and work as volunteers are not captured. It is important for us that those young people begin to get recognition for the voluntary work they are doing.

I thank Ms Collier. That concludes our meeting. I sincerely thank the witnesses for coming in, especially the students, Annie Sheppard and Darragh Rawson, and their teacher, Ms Karen Murphy. I also thank the students in the Gallery, including Adam Jordan, Molly Hynes, Chloe Cullen and Hannah Mulroe. I thank them all very much. Darragh and Annie did the speaking, but I know all the students played their part.

They were all influential in the programme and in the research. I thank the principal, Ms Linda Dunne. When I took the chair of this committee, I made a commitment to have as much student interaction as possible. Students as young as 14 years of age have appeared. With the agreement of all the members, for the first time ever, students have been very much a part and parcel of the committee's work. We have engaged with students from throughout the island of Ireland. It is very important the student voice is heard. I thank them for coming before the committee today. It has been very interesting and enlightening to meet them all. In particular, I commend the students on their interaction today and on having the confidence to appear before the committee. They should be very proud of themselves. I know the teachers have had a huge influence over the students being here today and being prepared but, more importantly, so too do their parents. Having support from home is hugely important. They are a credit to their parents, teachers and, more importantly, to their school. They have done a fantastic job of work.

My thanks also to Ms Collier and Mr. Peak from YSI and to Mr. Fitzpatrick who was unable to attend today.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.36 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 5 July 2022.
Barr
Roinn