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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE AND SMALL BUSINESS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Nov 2003

Vol. 1 No. 28

Insurance Industry: Presentations.

Before resuming our public hearings on the reform of certain aspects of the Irish insurance industry, I welcome, on behalf of the joint committee, Mr. Myles O'Reilly of O'Reilly Consultants with his colleagues Mr. Joseph McGrath and Ms Aoife Teehan who are assisting the joint committee in its deliberations. They also helped to draft its interim report which has been very well received. I look forward to working with them during the next phase of our inquiry.

With the agreement of members, I propose to take the presentations in the following order: Quinn Direct, Allianz and the Irish Insurance Federation. Presentations by Hibernian Insurance, AXA and the FBD are scheduled for tomorrow. IBEC and the Small Firms Association will also address the joint committee. I acknowledge those who have made submissions and helped the joint committee in various ways. They include the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Minister for Transport in their respective roles and their officials. The Ministers have promised the joint committee every assistance and we will be calling on them in the coming weeks.

Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration in relation to any matter being discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contribution. Members are also reminded that if there is a possible conflict of interest, they should make a declaration of interest, either now or at the start of their contribution.

From Quinn Direct I welcome Mr. Kevin Lunney, financial services director; Mr. Ray Foley, chief underwriter, and Ms Sylvia Coldrick, private lines underwriting manager. I invite the delegation to make its presentation. The format, as in the past, will be a ten to 12 minute presentation by each group after which members will have a chance to ask questions.

Mr. Kevin Lunney

I thank the joint committee for its invitation. Today's presentation follows a written submission made to the committee in March 2003. We also made an oral submission on 1 July this year.

Today's presentation responds to the committee's requests on three fronts. This can be seen on page 2 of the document which I hope has been circulated to all members. Our response is made in the context of the committee's interim report. It discusses pricing and rate trends over the past year providing specific examples of motor and liability insurance costs. We intend to outline the objectives of Quinn Direct as a fully indigenous and Irish owned organisation and include our recommendations for possible further reductions in pricing.

Quinn Direct welcomes the opportunity to make this further submission. In general, it supports the recommendations of the joint committee which it outlined in its interim report. We draw the committee's attention to just two items. We have some concern about the possibility that the increase in the limits which may be applied by the lower courts may have the effect of exacerbating some of the legal costs involved in the process. We also draw the committee's attention to recommendation No. 24 which suggests that policyholders should be given the power to refer settlements to an arbitrator. While each of the recommendations may have merit, we have some concern that they may result in additional legal costs and a drawing out of the claims settlement process. We ask the committee to re-examine these proposals. We wish it success in the continuation of its work. The interim report is complete and useful from our own perspective and it is a beginning in getting to the nub of some of the issues in the industry.

To update our presentation in July, Quinn Direct has continued to enjoy 38% growth year on year up to week 43 of 2003. We have continued to have a 250% growth in commercial business lines which is very significant. We come to the joint committee from a position of having had substantial growth throughout the year. Many customers continue to come to Quinn Direct and we are appreciative of this. The reason is that our company has been a catalyst for change throughout its history. We have proactively reacted with lower prices and we have specific examples to demonstrate that to the committee. We have reacted with improved prices as an improved claims position has materialised on the ground.

Quinn Direct has led the way in price reductions over the course of the last year and in the entire period since its inception in 1996. Our yearly plate reductions across the board are approximately 19% in private motor insurance since the start of the year. A reduction of 19% in our prices since January is very significant. In commercial liability insurance our prices have fallen by 22% which is also significant. In property damage insurance our prices have fallen by 22%. In that context, we have fully supported the Government's initiatives. Ours is one of the few companies which has pushed forward with its response to the reform programme. We wish the committee to note this.

Quinn Direct will continue to assist customers where previous insurers have pulled out of the market. Principally, they are international players who have deserted the Irish market over the last two years and Quinn Direct has been in a position to assist some of their customers. As the company has become more involved in commercial liability and property damage insurance, we have developed concerns about the representation of consumer interests by the broker channel. We will delve into those concerns in more detail further into our presentation. We ask the joint committee to focus on this issue.

On page 5 of our document is outlined a specific request the joint committee asked us to respond to. The committee has asked us to outline our total private motor and commercial vehicles - including light vans and fleet business - premiums written in week 43 of last year, week 43 of this year and the average premiums pertaining. Our total written premium in week 43 of 2002 was €4.3 million; the figure this year is €4.5 million. The average premium was €1,551 last year and €1,241 this year, which represents a 20% reduction. This reduction is quite substantial and significant in the context of the objectives the committee has outlined. Equally, the reductions in commercial business are also significant. There has been a 15.5% reduction in commercial vehicle and fleet premiums since the start of this year.

We have provided information on page 6 of the document we supplied which outlines specific examples of private motor insurance cover. This information may put some bones on the numbers and specific examples may be useful for the committee to consider. The first example is of a 19 year old male driving in Dublin with third party fire and theft cover, a full licence and a one year no claims bonus. In October 2002 we charged such a driver €3,020; the price today is €2,251, which represents a significant reduction of 25.5%. The reduction in respect of a 19 year old female holding a provisional licence and based in Dublin with a one year no claims bonus was 16.1%. For 22 year old females with full licences prices have fallen by 22.5% and for a 30 year old male driving on a comprehensive policy with a full licence and a five year no claims bonus prices have fallen by 18.5%. For a 50 year old male with a full licence who is comprehensively insured to drive a more expensive car worth €25,000 the premium reduction is 20.5% on this time last year.

On page 7 we provide in response to the joint committee's request some examples of commercial insurance price reductions. In respect of public and employers liability insurance combined, we provide three examples of liability and two examples pertaining to fire cover for property and business interruption costs. We have taken from our portfolio the example of the liability of an engineering factory with an annual turnover of €1.5 million, wages of €264,000 and an excess deductible of €5,000. It is based in County Offaly. Last year its policy costs €29,268 but throughout each quarter the reductions have been progressive. By September 2003 there was a 25.1% reduction in the cost of the policy to the factory. The next example is of a public dwellinghouse builder based in Dublin with an annual turnover of €500,000, wages of €120,000 and an excess deductible of €3,000. The price of the policy for this customer has reduced by 21.8%. For a civil engineering contractor prices have reduced by 23.6% in the same period.

The next two examples concern property damage and fire perils. To insure a hotel property worth €3.4 million with a gross profit of €600,000 and an excess deductible of €300,000, the cost has reduced by 24.2% to give a price today of €8,881. The next example is of an engineering factory similar to the one described above but this time it concerns property insurance. With sums insured of €2 million, a gross profit of €340,000 and an excess deductible of €3,000, the price of the premium has been reduced by 20.7%.

Quinn Direct believes the examples I have given which have been taken at random from our portfolio and the aggregate figures demonstrate that our company is leading the way on price reductions in the market. We are confidently taking on the market and making a difference in the industry. We have done this since 1996 and will continue to do so. Three main factors have driven this leadership. Cost efficiency in our operation is among the best in the industry and we are able to make cost reductions follow through. We have a very fast claims response unit which strives on a continuous basis and is making progress to reduce legal costs within the cycle. Particularly within the commercial lines business, we are emphasising health and safety initiatives and working daily with policyholders to ensure health and safety measures are adopted to reduce the number of accidents.

Quinn Direct has been key in driving change throughout its history. Previously we led the industry by insuring young drivers throughout the late 1990s. We led again as the larger players deserted the commercial market over the last two years and, specifically, following the tragedy of 11 September 2001. We have created competition and driven prices down across the markets in which we have been involved and will continue to do so. We have remained consistent in our approach. We will continue to quote and deliver the best value to all driver sectors and will not try to cherry-pick the market. We will continue to adopt a hands on direct approach to our business.

Quinn Direct will continue to support the Government initiatives. Our presentation today demonstrates that we have done this to date. We commend the committee for bringing factors to bear which have allowed favourable conditions to arise. We will continue to develop our business in Ireland. As a wholly Irish owned organisation based in and run from this country, we have a contribution to make which is greater than that of some of the international players in the market. We do not take our direction from Paris, Munich or London; we take it from our Irish owners and operators. We have proven our ability to make this contribution.

Quinn Direct will continue to support Irish business with innovative products and through our claims handling approach. This approach is recognised as innovative within the market. We will proactively work to reduce legal costs and wasteful professional fees within our structure. We expect to see further reductions in prices going forward, though that depends on the way Government initiatives are followed through as well as on the claims position.

Quinn Direct has some recommendations which we believe would facilitate additional cost reductions. Insurance fraud should be made a criminal offence. The PIAB should be rapidly implemented and buy-in from the Law Society must be ensured. We would also like to see the introduction of judicial studies guidelines - or book of quantum - on claims costs similar to those in operation in the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. The guidelines should not be based on current Irish award levels but rather on European levels. This is an important point which the joint committee must assess. Quinn Direct also recommends that it press forward with the reduction of the time limit for the filing of claims. The limit is currently three years. While I understand there may be progress on this front, no legislation is in place.

Quinn Direct has seen 250% growth in its commercial lines business since the start of 2003. We are not complaining about not being able to attract customers. Many are coming to us. However, authorised advisers working on a commission basis make it very difficult for an organisation like Quinn Direct to break into the market and to ensure that our products are offered to consumers. We ask the joint committee to examine whether commission paying brokers and authorised advisers constitute a sensible way forward. While we deal with brokers, we do so on a fee basis which works very well. Where we have difficulty is where there is an established long-term relationship between an established broker and a member of the industry. In such cases, we have a great deal of difficulty breaking into the market and ensuring that our products which represent the best value available are being presented to customers on a fair and impartial basis.

I thank the Chairman and the members of the joint committee for allowing me to make my presentation. I would welcome questions.

Thank you very much, Mr. Lunney. It is a breath of fresh air to hear such a contribution. From Allianz I welcome Mr. Brendan Murphy, group chief executive; Mr. Sean Maher, director of risk management, and Mr. Damien O'Neill, senior executive manager.

Allianz Ireland welcomes the opportunity to make this presentation to the joint committee. Allianz Ireland supports the work of the committee in which regard I refer members to our letter of written submission of 21 March 2003. I take this opportunity to apologise for not being able to attend the committee's sessions during the summer. This was due to other commitments which could not be changed.

Allianz Ireland does not favour the current status quo for a number of reasons. The one closest to our heart is poor financial returns over the medium term. I will deal with this issue in detail later. We face severely pressured policyholders, short-term behaviour among some opportunist insurers - a matter I will also deal with later - and the increased adoption of self-insurance approaches by what we consider to be unsuitable companies. The purchase of commercial insurance is a financial decision. A decision to forgo the purchase in whole or in part may have serious financial consequences for a company as claims come through. This causes Allianz some concern. We have deeply concerned legislators which is why committee members are here to deal with these issues. We have an endemic compensation culture while the cost of claims in terms of delivery and compensation levels must be addressed.

All of these factors are a recipe for instability at best and, at worst, returns on capital employed are too low. Allianz Ireland believes deep-rooted reform is needed and commends the joint committee in respect of most of the recommendations in its first report. I do not intend to go through the report at this time as the committee has identified most of the issues which need to be addressed. The solutions have been identified and it is now a question of seeing them through.

Recent media reports on the future of the PIAB and the Civil Liability (Courts) Bill were a cause of concern. I read this morning that the PIAB was approved by the Cabinet yesterday and we look forward to the time legislators have an opportunity to pass the legislation in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Allianz Ireland is committed to playing its part in forging a better marketplace for everybody.

Allianz Ireland is a general insurer serving the commercial lines and personal markets. Our focus is on big ticket commercial insurance. We are an all-Ireland insurer and derive about 20% of our gross written premium from Northern Ireland. The company is owned by Allianz and Irish Life Holdings. Allianz Irish Life Holdings plc is the holding company in which Irish Life has a one third shareholding. We have over 900 employees at eight locations in Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Dundalk, Galway, Kilkenny, Limerick and Sligo.

Insurance is a people business and I cannot refer to Allianz without referring to our staff. Among our more than 900 employees, the average age is 36 years, the average length of service is nine years and the qualification profile is that 48% of staff have third level or equivalent education qualifications. We believe in training. In 2002 we spent 2,000 days on insurance training and commit to one week of training per employee per year.

Allianz Ireland's role is to provide solutions to protect policyholders from the adverse effects of accidents and losses. We achieve this through risk control and risk reduction advice to complement insurance. Insurance promises to pay for losses which may arise in the future at an unknown cost. This means we have contractual obligations to our clients to pay now and in the future in respect of the many variables over which insurers have no control. We have served this marketplace for over 100 years and look forward to doing so for the next 100 years and longer.

On page 7 of the document circulated to members we have outlined a profile of Allianz Ireland's business and compared it to the market profile and provided figures in respect of each. We have 11% of what is termed "other business" compared to the market level of 8%. "Other business" in this context refers to marine, aviation, credit and guarantee business. In liability insurance we are higher than the market profile at 21% versus 18%. In property insurance we have 29% versus the market profile of 24%. In motor insurance the market profile is 50% and we come in at 39%. Within that 39%, a large proportion of our motor business is commercial. These figures illustrate that our focus is largely on big ticket commercial insurance.

On page 8 is outlined the financial performance in the Republic of Ireland of Allianz Ireland over the last five years. I have set out for each year the underwriting result and the result after taxation. Losses are included in brackets. Unfortunately, there are too many bracketed figures. Our five year average return on capital to 2002 was 0.5%. Our ten year return on capital to December 2002 was 5.7%. These returns are inadequate in terms of the cost of capital and the risks associated with general insurance business given that we estimate the cost of capital for a general insurance company to be between 8% and 9%. For comparative purposes we have taken the four Irish published banks and looked at their returns for the five year period to December 2002. On that basis we see that their returns were 20.8%.

As I stated, our focus is commercial. Allianz offers assistance and other solutions as an integral part of its commercial insurance business. Risk control and reduction advice are key to the way we do business. We employ 17 risk surveyors who work closely with our insured parties to manage claims. Our claims relationship management and effective management claims practices have been an effort on our behalf over the years to work in close partnership with our insured parties to control claims. One of the problems we face is that some of the factors which have the greatest effect on claims are societal issues. We are heartened and delighted that the committee is addressing these problems. We use occupational and rehabilitation services aimed at helping insured parties recover and return to work more quickly, by which we mean that if somebody has a back injury, for example, he or she may not be able to do any lifting work but could be reassigned to do other work. Unfortunately, we are finding it difficult to get this approach accepted in the workplace.

Having addressed our approach to the business, I will turn to another crucially important issue, namely, the question of transient capital capacity. I welcome the opportunity to raise the matter with the joint committee. Page 7 of my presentation sets out what is, in our view, the insurance market as reported in the blue book in one of the appendices. However, the market is much wider than this here because other companies are operating in it. Capital moves easily in an open, free market with competitors entering and leaving it at will taking business on a selective basis. If one examines the blue book for 2001, one will see that there are 420 non-resident companies authorised to transact business here. While information is not available on the scale of their activities, we believe up to 40% of the commercial property and 20% of the liability business is transacted through them. In addition, offshore captive companies and collective captive operations operated through the brokers and large inward investment companies do not place their insurance business in the local market but tend to place it through global programmes. This has an impact on what is already a relatively small commercial market in that it becomes much smaller. In addition, diversity of risk is not possible in many instances.

The short-term movement of capacity capital in and out of this relatively small commercial market has a destabilising effect. Predatory pricing is applied to target risks and this transient capacity is not offered on a wide scale but is available only to selected risks. The Independent Insurance Company is a good example of this approach. The company undercut resident markets, underpriced risk, created unrealistic expectations and, finally, left many policyholders with unpaid claims which still affect balance sheets today.

There are two good examples of the problem left behind by Independent Insurance, namely, Diamond Engineering in Kilmallock, County Limerick, which was left with in excess of €1.1 million in unpaid claims by Independent Insurance resulting in the company going out of business with the loss of more than 90 jobs, and a well known retailer on Grafton Street which is carrying a provision in its balance sheet in excess of €500,000 to cover unpaid claims from the company. The key point is that one needs capital which covers the market as a whole and is not transient but available for the long-term.

What do we mean when we state transient capital causes instability? We mean prices fall to uneconomic levels before reverting to their previous higher levels. Experience has shown that prices which fall quickly inevitably shoot back up. This type of price instability makes it virtually impossible for businesses to price their products and services. What appears, therefore, to be a short-term gain usually turns out to cause long-term damage. It would be helpful to the commercial insurance market, therefore, if the joint committee investigated ways to oblige transient capital to commit to a minimum period and volume to ensure such companies do not cherry-pick individual risks before they would be allowed to transact business in this marketplace.

I now turn to the request we received - I understand it came from the Chairman - with regard to the movement in rates between October 2002 and October 2003. To summarise, we do our renewals on a monthly as opposed to a weekly basis. The figures I have supplied show that personal motor insurance premiums has reduced by 8% during the period in question, from an average of €905 to €833. In the same period, 17,027 policyholders in October 2002 and 14,648 renewed in October 2003. This means 14% of policyholders did not renew. The reduction in premiums for the period from April is 7.9%.

Overall, we are happy with these figures because they reflect the actual position. We reduced our rates by 5.5% on 1 June and 5% on 1 October. We would have increased our rates between the end of October and early January 2003 by about 2.5% but the figure of 8% in overall terms looks correct and we are happy with it in the sense that the volume of policies is such that the average premium appears to be correct.

Unlike commercial business, there is a homogeneous risk type in the motor insurance business which we compare. When one considers the figures, for instance, in the area of employer's liability, we have 200 policies, the average cost of which was €25,655. I have referred to the fact that we are geared towards larger commercial risks. Within the group of companies for which the average premium is €25,000 or thereabouts, we could have policies of €2,000, €200,000 or €2 million. Averages, therefore, do not indicate the true position.

Also in the area of employer's liability, the position in April 2003 was that we had 145 policies with an average premium of €17,000. Again, as the impact of individual large policies distorts the average premium, it is not possible to examine this sector of the business from the perspective of average premiums. Most of our larger risks are merit rated, which means they are rated based on the actual claims experience of the insured. As members will see, the overall trend is downwards but, again, we believe this to be only broadly indicative and we would not attach too much credence to it.

In summary, commercial business is merit rated; there are significant variations between policy premiums; unlike personal motor insurance no uniform pattern of business presents each month; different terms, conditions, offers and variations of premium levels apply, not all of which are written on a ground-up basis - there may be deductibles; and average premiums at policy level are affected by wage inflation on employers liability, the number of employees and declaration of premiums. Overall, the average reduction in the cost of the policies we renewed in October 2003 in comparison with the same policies in October 2002 was 8%. Due to the nature of commercial business, however, it is not possible to obtain an average which we could stand over.

Allianz Ireland fully supports and is anxious to see the implementation of the PIAB and the enactment of the civil liability and courts Bill to which we wish God speed through the Houses. Allianz Ireland recommends that the joint committee take into consideration the impact of transient capital on the overall stability of the commercial insurance market.

I thank Mr. Murphy and welcome back Mr. Michael Kemp, chief executive of the Irish Insurance Federation, Mr. Michael Horan, its non-life insurance manager, and Mr. Neil Doyle, its corporate affairs manager. I ask Mr. Kemp to make his submission and update the joint committee on improvements which, I hope, have taken place since he last came before us.

Mr. Michael Kemp

I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to make further written and oral submissions to the joint committee. I gather our latest written submission has been distributed to members. The summary at the beginning of the submission emphasises the main point we wish to make. As I do not wish to delay the committee, I will confine my contribution to summarising the purpose of the submission.

The Irish Insurance Federation aims to cover three issues. The submission contains detailed comments on the interim report and recommendations issued by the joint committee, the bulk of which we support. It then provides a progress report on the implementation of the MIAB recommendations with particular emphasis on those recommendations we view as the principal means by which cost savings could be made and those addressed to the market and currently being implemented by the insurance industry through the IIF. We also include some data and commentary on the liability insurance market, partly because of the undue focus on motor insurance in our previous submissions and during the hearings in July, particularly as liability and other commercial insurance are probably the main concerns of large and small business customers. Following reductions in motor insurance rates during the year, there is an appetite to know what is happening in the commercial insurance market.

We specifically draw the attention of the members of the joint committee to three aspects of the submission, namely, the comments in the columns headed "IIF Comments", which feature in the tables addressing the interim report's recommendations on pages 4 to 8, the data on the liability insurance market in the table on page 13 and the commentary on the market on page 14, particularly paragraphs 4.4 and 4.5 and the appendix, which sets out the precise state of play as regards the implementation of the MIAB recommendations.

In the context of the recommendations of the interim report, I echo the comments of Mr. Lunney. As I stated, we support the majority of the recommendations and have selected in the first table on pages 4 and 5 the recommendations we regard as particularly important. Nevertheless, we have reservations about one or two of the recommendations, particularly Nos. 2 and 24, which were referred to.

Rather than going into greater detail on the issues covered by the submission, I suggest we address them in reply to members' questions. Our feedback from our members echoes what the joint committee has heard from the two previous speakers, namely, that liability insurance rates have stabilised, the capacity to underwrite in the past six months or thereabouts has increased and, in some cases, some reductions in premiums in commercial property and commercial liability insurance have taken place. As is well known, there have also been significant reductions in private and motor insurance rates throughout the year.

I thank Mr. Kemp and welcome Deputy O'Donovan who has joined the proceedings. On the previous occasion Mr. Kemp addressed the joint committee, members felt they had not been told the full story. We were pleased on behalf of policyholders when we heard the good news announced by the insurance companies within four or five weeks of appearing before the joint committee. On this occasion, we are seeking immediate action and results of which we have not to date seen any. On the contrary, I receive dozens of letters every day from people who hold policies with many different companies, not all of which have been before the committee, which are not reducing their premiums. At least two companies have not reduced premiums. I have chosen at random a letter I received yesterday from a 47 year old lady driver with a ten year no claims bonus whose premium has increased. This is not what we have heard from the insurance companies this morning. I will take up the issues raised in correspondence with me later and I may seek the assistance of the Irish Insurance Federation in this regard.

As Chairman of the joint committee, it is heartening to hear the submissions by Quinn Direct, Allianz Ireland and the Irish Insurance Federation. On the issue of brokers, Mr. Lunney stated brokers did not offer Quinn Direct products in the market. Will he expand on this comment before I open the discussion to the floor for questions? Is it correct to conclude from his remark that his company's products were not being offered by brokers to everyone in the marketplace?

Mr. Lunney

Yes, that is the gist of the comment. Quinn Direct Insurance does not pay commissions to brokers but operates on a fee basis which means we charge a broker the same price as a policyholder who comes to us directly. If policyholders believe the broker has done them a service in achieving the best price on the market, it is up to them to pay an additional fee to the broker at whatever level both parties regard as appropriate. We do not make any stipulations on the level of any fee as it is a matter for the policyholder and the broker in question to decide. Our problem is that currently brokers, particularly some of the larger ones, have close relationships with the more established insurance companies. In many cases, individuals who have authorised adviser status will not place our prices before customers or seek quotations from our company. While they will cite various reasons for doing so, we suspect that it is related to our policy of not paying commissions which are available through other insurance organisations.

Quinn Direct is trying to enter the market and works with small and large businesses and the entire spectrum of policyholders. The caveat I wish to mention in this context is that we have recorded growth of 250% in this business. We have not, therefore, come before the joint committee to try to get additional business but to make the point that the joint committee must ensure the consumer is being well served by the current process. We have concerns about whether the role of a commission based broker structure is sensible in the longer term. The introduction of a more transparent, open structure based on fees - the basis on which we operate - would be more conducive to a cleaner, more transparent market. Our difficulties in this context, while not so significant that we would jump up and down about it, are sufficiently important for the committee to note them.

Does Quinn Direct pay a fee to the broker?

Mr. Lunney

No, under our structure, policyholders pay a fee for the service the broker has provided for them to ensure they obtain the best price on the market.

I welcome all three groups and the presentations of the three witnesses. The joint committee has made considerable progress on this issue and should continue to focus on ensuring that our clear objectives are met. These are to reduce of the cost of insurance in all market sectors for people who require insurance to operate in society and the economy and to remove, to the greatest extent possible, the obstacles to achieving the most competitive type of insurance market. It is for this reason that I particularly welcome the submission of Quinn Direct which provides clear, readable data to show that our efforts are having some impact. It is important for the joint committee to see in black and white that specific reductions are taking place in each of the categories of insurance on which we have focused. To that end, I have a question for Mr. Lunney on the average figures he has supplied, which he stated had been selected at random. Are these typical figures which represent the typical insurance premium reduction in each of the categories he addressed in his presentation?

Mr. Murphy's written submission and the opening part of his oral submission sounded similar to the original submission we received from the Irish Insurance Federation which described as fairly dysfunctional market. I share the concerns of others that in making enormous efforts to recommend substantial changes in the insurance market we found that this dysfunctional market was actually generating reasonable profit margins for the companies acknowledged by Allianz Ireland in its presentation. I understand Allianz Ireland announced a reduction in premiums yesterday. We will not get annoyed about this, although we would prefer announcements of this nature to be made before the joint committee.

On behalf of the joint committee, I accepted Mr. Murphy's apology.

If representatives of insurance companies are scheduled to appear before the joint committee, we would appreciate if such announcements were made here. Nevertheless, we also appreciate all reductions in premiums. What was Allianz's net profit on private motor insurance in the latest period for which the company has figures? These would allow us to judge the current position.

As regards our recommendations, which in some instances simply underscore the previous recommendations of the Motor Insurance Advisory Board, what impact will they have on motor insurance and the other categories of insurance provided by the companies before us? Their answer will allow us to set baselines.

The Chairman set a target of reducing motor insurance by 30%. The typical figure we have received from Quinn Direct indicates that we have already achieved a reduction of 19%. The figures supplied by Allianz Ireland, which are more difficult to nail down, indicate the company has reduced premiums by 8%. What is the company's best estimate of the further progress which could be achieved if all the recommendations set out in our interim report were implemented?

I welcome the groups before the joint committee and congratulate the Chairman on the fact that the companies represented here have lowered insurance premiums. I particularly welcome the 20% reduction in premiums Quinn Direct has announced. Mr. Lunney referred to two recommendations which concern Quinn Direct, namely, the proposed increase in the limits on awards in the lower courts and the proposal to give policyholders the power to challenge settlements through an arbitrator. Will Mr. Lunney elaborate on the reason these developments would concern him? The other concern the company raised was the issue of fees versus commissions for brokers. This matter will have to be investigated and addressed if it presents an obstacle to lower insurance premiums. Allianz Ireland has reduced its insurance premiums by a certain amount. Is it losing customers by not making greater reductions along the lines of those made by Quinn Direct?

We are delighted with the competition which appears to be emerging in the insurance sector and hope it will continue. The aim of the joint committee is to bring down the cost of insurance. The insurance companies want the PIAB, when established, to base its book of quantum on the rates used in Britain and Northern Ireland rather than current rates applied here. Will this be difficult to achieve? Will it result in people taking cases before the courts rather than accept the book of quantum?

Mr. Lunney

Deputy Howlin has asked whether the figures we cite are random or typical. Page 5 of our report features the total premium across the board in absolute terms. The figure of 20% from week 43 is, therefore, an absolute figure across the board. When I use the term "typical" in regard to the other figures I cited, it refers to the typical portfolio of individuals insured by Quinn Direct. We insure young drivers across the board and many third party individuals. We have selected as examples a number of categories ranging from young drivers through to 50 year old drivers.

Are certain categories not included?

Mr. Lunney

No, we insure everybody.

Does that include Deputies?

Mr. Lunney

Yes.

When renewing my motor insurance recently, two companies refused to quote me as a Deputy.

Mr. Lunney

Was one of them Quinn Direct?

No, when details identical to mine were recorded for a manual worker as opposed to a Deputy, the premium was considerably less than the one I accepted.

In fairness to Quinn Direct, it itemised in detail in dispatches in a newspaper last Sunday the premiums it charges, whether according to location in the State, sex or age group.

Mr. Lunney

Yes, the Chairman is referring to our current advertising campaign. Deputy Howlin has asked what will be the impact of the recommendations in the joint committee's interim report on reductions in insurance premiums. This is a difficult question to answer for an organisation such as ours. Further reductions will occur if current trends continue and further reductions in judicial awards take place. The perception is that awards have reduced during the year and claimants are showing less urgency to take cases before the courts. This is driving down costs and there is no reason we cannot achieve the joint committee's objective of reducing premiums by 30% in the foreseeable future. I cannot give it a timescale for meeting this goal as it will depend on many factors on the ground. My organisation will drive this process forward.

In respect of Deputy Callanan's questions regarding our concern about costs in the lower courts and the right of policyholders to seek arbitration, it is a simple matter. We have worked hard in recent years to reduce the legal input into the claims settlement process. If the limits on the awards made in the lower courts are increased, awards tend to move towards the upper end of those limits, which may drive costs higher in the long run.

Arbitration would create potential costs in that representation on either side would be associated with professional fees. We need to be careful about what further professional fee structures we build into a process which is already heavily laden with them. I can understand the reasoning behind the joint committee's decision to make these recommendations, but it should consider their potential downsides.

We have already covered the issue of brokers which was also raised by Deputy Callanan. The correct approach is to introduce a fee structure in which brokers are awarded for the service they offer and the process is transparent in terms of what the policyholder receives.

I will deal with Deputy Callanan's questions first. Regarding the book of quantum, the Judicial Studies Board for Northern Ireland has a list of 39 categories which is, effectively, a book of quantum. If one compares Northern Ireland to England and Wales, every single category is higher in the former than the latter. In some cases the difference is more than 200%. If one takes the three most common types of injury, whiplash, back injury and dermatitis, the average general damages award under the effective book of quantum is €2,000 in England and Wales and €8,000 in Northern Ireland. The average award for a serious back injury is £28,000 in England and Wales and £50,000 in Northern Ireland. The average award for a minor back injury is £4,000 in England and Wales and £12,500 in Northern Ireland. The average award for dermatitis is £10,000 in England and Wales while it is £50,000 in Northern Ireland. Awards in the Republic of Ireland are not any lower than in Northern Ireland. These are the kinds of levels we would be talking about in terms of bringing forward the book of quantum.

If the rate is too low, will the client not go to court, thus making the book of quantum irrelevant? We all want to have low rates.

A great deal depends on the reaction of the Judiciary when cases come to court.

In regard to the dysfunctional market, our concern is that we base our rates on claims experience. Unless we see an improvement coming through in claims, we cannot rate downwards because, if we do, we will not be around in the longer term. The whole purpose of insurance is to meet claims when they fall due. If we anticipate a reduction in claims which is not delivered, we will not remain in business in the long-term.

Some matters which the joint committee has identified have yet to be dealt with. We want to see them followed through. We believe the marketplace can be improved. Whether it is personal or commercial insurance, the piece of paper is worthless unless the company is able to pay claims when they fall due.

In regard to the 77 fewer deaths on the road in the past 12 months, for which we are thankful and the €100 million less in claims, there is certainly an opportunity——

We did not anticipate it but reflected it when it came through. It is a matter of concern to us that the road death figures for October 2003 compared to October 2002 do not make happy reading.

On profits.

If we adjust our five year average return figure up to June - again, I caution that June is the middle of the year and we are now in the middle of what has traditionally been the worst two months of the year in terms of losses——

What is the profit margin for the first six months?

It comes out at 3% average return on capital.

That is not the question I asked. What is the profit in money terms?

Our overall profit for the period——

On motor insurance.

I do not have the figure for motor insurance but can give an overall figure. It was €35 million on Republic of Ireland business which was €16 million investment profit and €19 million underwriting profit.

What would be the most opportune time of the year for Mr. Murphy to provide figures for the joint committee?

After the year ends. In March——

Early or late February.

Late February or early March.

What will be the impact of the recommendations being implemented on premia?

Of the PIAB.

The joint committee's report.

I could give a guesstimate but that is all it would be.

Mr. Murphy must have some idea.

We believe it will improve. What I see happening is that it will be reflected in the actual claims cost and this will be passed on in terms of premium.

Does Mr. Murphy have no idea?

I did not say we have no idea. It depends - the PIAB may not necessarily reduce costs. If we get a book of quantum that works well, it should create consistency. I will not say for definite that costs will be reduced but they should be when combined with the civil liabilities and courts Bill.

Let me interject. The joint committee is trying to work in partnership with the insurance industry for a common objective. It is frustrating for me, and probably for my colleagues, to find that we might do all these things and they might not have any implication for costs. We have gone through this so many times in terms of non-jury courts and so forth. Promises were made that if we did certain things, it would impact on premia. We want to hear the industry express enthusiasm that it believes this will have an impact and that we will work together to deliver reductions in premia at the earliest possible juncture.

I would be delighted to say that. The Deputy can rest assured that he has our commitment on it. What I will not do is anticipate and say premia will be reduced by X amount. I cannot say that because it depends on the level of claims costs. That is the cause of my reticence in this regard. We are totally committed and supportive of the joint committee's work.

Is Mr. Murphy happy with his company's efficiency in dealing with all these matters?

Mr. Kemp

Perhaps I can be of some assistance. We were asked to do an exercise by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment following the publication of the MIAB report on the potential cost impact of the implementation of all the recommendations. While it was hedged around with some caveats, we suggested that a saving in the region of 30% or 31% would be possible if all the MIAB recommendations were implemented. Of these, only a dozen or so will have a significant impact. The reductions achieved this year that have been passed on in motor premiums are notwithstanding the non-implementation to date of most of the key recommendations. It is worth saying we should not be complacent because further improvement can be made. We understand one or two of the recommendations will not be implemented such as the abolition of the 2% levy which was also one of the joint committee's recommendations. We have not had any indication——

That is only 2%. We are looking for 30%.

Mr. Kemp

Absolutely.

The 2% rate is one of the lowest in Europe. In some places it is 11% while in others it is 15%. I am stating a fact.

Mr. Kemp

Abolishing it would have an immediate impact across the board on all policyholders premiums. There are one or two other recommendations of the same order, perhaps not the most important ones, in the light of which we have to revise the projection.

A considerable additional cost saving can be made if the PIAB is up and running shortly and if the Civil Liability and Courts Bill is implemented. These are two of the most important recommendations, with the adoption of a new national road safety strategy and the provision of adequate enforcement resources for the Garda.

I welcome the groups present. In response to Mr. Kemp's last remark, it is interesting to note that companies made €180 million in 2002 without any of the recommendations of the MIAB being implemented. It will be interesting to see how much additional profit will accrue to insurance companies arising from the implementation of all the recommendations. This is where the benefit to the consumer will be found.

I was interested in the Quinn Direct presentation. The impression was given that if brokers were abolished, a significant reduction in premia would result. Is it easy to get a Quinn Direct agency?

Mr. Lunney

Anyone can do it.

Anyone at all.

Mr. Lunney

Absolutely but it is on a fee basis.

What fee is usually paid to a broker?

Mr. Lunney

That is up to the client. The client pays the fee.

It is nothing to do with Quinn Direct.

The client must know what the fee is.

They are obliged under law to do this. It does not have anything to do with the bottom line profitability of Quinn Direct. The fee is passed back to the policyholder.

When the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, was in a different ministry, we were told that a substantial reduction in premiums would result if brokers' fees were cut in half, yet they have increased a great deal since. In 2000 and 2001 there was a large increase in motor premia and in liability rates.

I have a number of questions about the management of insurance companies. One deals with underwriting losses. Is it not the case that provision is made for claims that have accrued in previous years in addition to claims in the current year? Allocations of reserves are made between the different categories of insurance risks at any given time. There is an indication, probably from the blue book, that there is a different allocation relative to the amount of business being written in motor insurance premia, from the point of view of allocation of reserves, than there is on liability of property. Is the level of profitability of insurance companies in regard to motor insurance, in particular, open to manipulation if one has a low level of allocation of reserves to motor insurance vis-à-vis other sectors of the business?

In regard to the allocation of reserves, generally, it is lower on motor than on the liability classes because if one looks at the tail, the period between when the premium comes in and the claims are paid out, it is much longer on liability than on motor insurance. In fact, as a general rule, it is assumed that about 50% of the motor premium has a liability content, whereas for both employer's liability and public liability it is 100%.

The Deputy must understand that we do not know the cost when we write the business. The cost is estimated and what happens in the liability business a great deal of the time is that new risks emerge and they are covered by the premium. The classic one that gets a great deal of attention is asbestos but there are other issues. Reserves are allocated on an actuarial basis. We have a database going back over many years and that is the basis on which we adjust and determine our reserves.

According to the blue book provided by the Department, from 1999 onwards insurance companies increased the levels of reserves required for claims. This created a massive increase in underwriting losses. In the six years prior to 1999 the cost of claims incurred for motor insurance was an average €46 million less than the estimated cost of accidents occurring in each year, yet the industry still allocated reserves which were at variance to the reality.

What happens in practice is that if one takes an individual claim which is initially estimated at €100,000, yet €350,000 is awarded following a court claim, effectively this is an under-reserving of €250,000 in an earlier year.

I refer to a six year period. One would not expect claims to accrue to the company in pay-out terms for a period longer than perhaps two or three years.

The average on a liability is probably close to five years; it is probably three and a half years for motor liability.

Does Mr. Murphy not accept that there is potential for manipulation of underwriting losses on the basis of the allocation of reserves?

No, because ultimately the reserves are in place to pay claims and that is the basis on which the determination is made. If the Deputy was to take it to its ultimate conclusion, which is the pay-out of claims over a period of time, this will either be a plus or a minus. It will never be exactly right because by its nature it is an estimation.

If money is left over arising from the pay-out in regard to claims, does it go back into profits or——

I refer the Deputy to the figures I gave for our results over five and ten years. They are not an adequate return on capital.

Money might be retained for reserves to pay out on claims and if money is left over, arising from the estimated figure included in the accounts, one does not give it back to the consumer, it goes back into profits.

In the same way we could be short also.

Rarely. Mr. Murphy was not short with the level of increases in 2000 and 2001.

I refer the Deputy to our figures which are factual and allows one to see the results.

The other question I want to ask is about investment income. We heard a great deal about the fact that there has been a low return on investment income. The average return quoted by the IIF in its fact file for investment income was 3.29%. Short-term gilts made 5.93% in 2001. One would expect insurance companies with all their sophistication to be able to invest money a little more astutely in the longer term and get a better return than 3.29% when it is available on the open market. Investments such as those to which I referred provide an opportunity to make secure levels of investment that would give a return of 5.93%. Why was that not done by the insurance industry?

Mr. Kemp

In regard to the investment issue, it has to be borne in mind that the figures which are returned include - as well as the actual income from investments which are held throughout the period - any gains or losses on the capital value of the investments during the period. That is in accordance with the accounting rules which apply. The 3.29% apparent yield takes into account the fact that there were significant falls in the capital value of investments in the period. We would certainly expect it to be higher in the longer term even in the present more restrictive investment climate. During those periods it relates to both realised and unrealised losses on the capital value of investments as well as the actual dividend income derived from it.

If I could make one point on the reserves, the MIAB in its report, looked at a ten year period to gauge the accuracy of reserving. The finding was that the initial first year reserves came out within 4% on average of the final figure. This compares favourably with most other markets in terms of the accuracy of reserving from the start of the life of the claim right through to completion.

What we were concerned about - this was my old hobbyhorse - was that only 15% of funds could be invested in property. As we all know, property has done very well over the past four to five years but the old reliables such as stocks and bonds have gone down substantially, with some reduced by 50%. Very few of the submissions commented on that point which we made in our interim report.

I, too, welcome and thank the various groups.

Chairman——

I have to alternate between Government and Opposition parties. I have always been fair in this regard.

In the interests of fairness, the Chairman should realise there are two parties in opposition.

I thought there were four.

On this committee there are two.

The Deputy from Galway also wants to be included.

He has even less chance than I have.

I particularly welcome the information given by Quinn Direct. From experience I know that what we heard is true. Are we forgetting the base from which insurance companies are starting? Over the past three years insurance premiums almost went out of control with increases of 100% and 200%. In many cases this was unjustified and unfair.

It would be an understatement to say we did not get the full picture from the presentations. We got a little bit more of the picture when profits were announced. I am not against profit. I am aware that a business must make a profit in order to be successful. We tend to forget that insurance premiums went out of control. In view of the information we have at present, does any of the companies plan to credit people or in some way give back the massive amounts of money they took over the past three years? As a committee, we would not be doing our duty if we did not focus on what has happened. It is all right to talk about reductions, they are welcome and I hope they continue but I sense that this might be just a short-term move and that increases may be on the way in future. Many small enterprises were put out of business or had to operate without insurance, which we want to prevent recurring. There is a justifiable case for some of the companies to give a certain amount of credit because of the high premiums they charged over the past three years.

That is a good point. I declare an interest as an hotelier. The Irish Hotels Federation carried out research prior to making a presentation to us which revealed an increase of 351% in insurance premia for hotels. Liam Griffin, the great Wexford man whom we all know, poured out his heart to us about how he had to struggle to survive in business. I am pleased to see that Quinn Direct has decreased premiums for hotels by 24%. I presume the company is working closely with the Irish Hotels Federation.

Mr. Lunney

Our prices did not go up by 300% in the past two years. Therefore, we are operating from a different base in regard to some of the prices referred to in the media by the Irish Hotels Federation. The federation is not a client of Quinn Direct and has not been in discussion with us in that regard. However, that is a matter for the federation.

In respect to increases and if they will be maintained, we are in the business for the long-term. We like to think that if the Government reform programme continues, we will be able to continue to reduce prices. Quinn Direct's business is in Ireland. This is where we are based. We will continue to support this business and make it competitive. That is our position.

Quinn Direct's presentation placed great emphasis on efficiency. Is this how the company can be competitive? It is a small player in the market.

Mr. Lunney

There are a number of factors. Our operation runs at one of the most efficient levels of any insurance company in the market. That information can be obtained in any of the blue book publications. In addition, we operate with a hands-on approach to settling claims, which we try to do without recourse to the legal profession. We work hard on behalf of policyholders the length and breadth of the country.

We do not try to make any excuse for the fact that we are making money. We are a profitable organisation and will continue to be profitable. There are opportunities to reduce prices. The question was asked if prices were out of control. Yes, they were out of control some time ago. The legal system was also out of control. The Crilly and McEneaney cases in the year 2000 had the potential to impact hugely on the future run-off of costs in regard to claims. Thankfully, such matters have been reversed over the past two years. The joint committee needs to understand that, in addition to prices, many other things were out of control,.

Following on from Mr. Lunney's last point, the joint committee does understand this, which is why we have people like him here today. I welcome the three bodies which made presentations. It was good of them to come; others did not.

Deputy Callanan said we all want to see awards reduced. I do not think this is the remit of the joint committee. We all want to see fair and just awards and, where people are seriously injured, we must ensure they have sufficient resources on which to live. That is what insurance is about. This is not a star chamber; its purpose is not to penalise people.

When I look for a quote for car insurance, it disturbs me that I am not getting all the information available. If a cartel is operating in this area, it is clearly a matter for the Competition Authority. Perhaps this is what we should consider. I want to know what is the best possible deal that provides adequate coverage.

The promised perjury Bill will make it a criminal offence to make a false or exaggerated claim. If a claim is deemed to be exaggerated, it will be lost in its entirety. The PIAB is another mechanism to reduce claims and give people speedy access to redress. Non-jury courts have also been suggested. These provisions arise from newspaper headlines announcing that claims were out of control and that many claims were fraudulent. This has been a feature of insurance in the past, it was not merely a case of costs being out of control.

The recommendations are aimed to prevent fraudulent claims, inflated payments and reduce legal costs. The aim is for people to be insured at a reasonable cost and for everyone to be able to get a quote, which is not the case at present. Our report will go to the relevant Minister. Will we make any recommendations to the effect that penalties will ensue for insurance companies which do not comply and do not come on board and reduce their premiums?

It fascinates me that Mr. Murphy is unable to predict the results of the proposed changes. I thought insurance was very much about predicting the future. Is that not what insurance is about? I accept that unexpected things happen. It worries me that we have not examined the possibility of imposing penalties on insurance companies which do not comply with the proposed changes. They may still come in here and tell us that they are losing money.

We will direct that question to the Tánaiste when she next comes before the joint committee.

Like my colleagues, I thank Allianz, Quinn Direct and the Irish Insurance Federation for their presentations, which I found most informative. I am sorry I had to leave to take a telephone call. I do not like leaving in the middle of committees and apologise for it.

I am glad that insurance premia costs are coming down although that was not my experience when I insured my car this year. Although I had not made any claim it still cost me more than last year. I intend to check on this.

I am aware that both companies are supportive of the concept of the PIAB. Does either of the insurance groups have any reservation about it? The Law Society has not bought into it. I am not sure why, although I may find out later today when I speak to some of its members.

The next question is for Quinn Direct. The company wants a reduction of the time limit, with which I agree, but it does not recommend the level of such a reduction. It also suggested that the policyholder should have the right to refer claims to an arbitrator. I am interested in how that would work. At what stage would they be referred? Who would be the arbitrator and who would appoint him or her?

Deputy Hogan referred to a profit margin of €183 million. Could somebody tell me - if it is not commercially disadvantageous to them - why we do not have more competitors in the market? Is there a cartel which keeps competitors out of Ireland?

Two other members want to contribute. We want to conclude by 11.30 a.m.

I am sorry I had to leave to attend the Order of Business in the Seanad.

I thank all those who contributed this morning. As ever, they were very worthwhile. What is Allianz's opinion on he impact of the penalty points system on insurance premiums? Will it be introducing a scheme to offer discounts to drivers without penalty points? Allianz's sister company got into some difficulty in Germany in regard to a price fixing cartel. What was Allianz's role in that cartel and what fine did it face as a result?

Will the delegates from the Insurance Industry Federation explain how features of overheads are allocated between different types of insurance?

I thank the Chairman for allowing me to contribute because I am not a member of the joint committee. I have great appreciation for the tremendous work the committee has been doing. I carried out a survey in my constituency, Cork South West, in the run-up to the last general election. Insurance, especially motor insurance, emerged as one of the top three issues of concern to the electorate, particularly young people. I am not quite sure whether the results of this survey reflect the views of voters throughout the country.

As a practising solicitor - I qualified in 1978 - and having once been secretary of the West Cork Bar Association, I confess that I have always been disturbed by the cosy cartel between insurance companies and certain firms of solicitors. For example, without mentioning any companies——

The Deputy must not name any of the parties involved.

I will be careful.

The Deputy can say what he likes.

They are not here to defend themselves.

I will be careful because of my involvement, in a small way, in a rural practice. Let us assume Deputy Howlin has an accident and believes he has a valid claim. If he goes to his local solicitor to have his case defended, the insurance company might say it has a very reputable firm in Dublin which will take over the handling of the claim. This is the reason PMPA went to the wall. I could instance scores of cases pertaining to west Cork in which neither the solicitor nor the barrister involved knew the location of the accident. I am not saying this is the case with Quinn Direct or Allianz but it certainly was the case in respect of some of the major players in insurance in Ireland. The system was in place down through the years and, as far as I know, it still is.

In Cork county or city, for example, one firm of solicitors handles insurance cases for a certain company. This takes away the basic right of a person who has an accident and feels he has a genuine case to choose who will defend him. The companies are saying that they decide who will defend such a person. I have had experience of this over a period of 25 years and it has been detrimental in terms of the cost of insurance. What is the view of the Irish Insurance Federation on this?

I came across a number of cases where insurance was obviously not an issue from day one. If a driver crashes into someone from behind or knocks down a pedestian, the defence mode kicks in straightaway. Perhaps the PIAB will change this. Efforts are made to defend indefensible cases over a period of two, three or four years. I do not always blame the solicitors for their clients, but the defence should say after three or four months that they were wrong and that they will sort out the problem. Cases usually end up in court because of this mindset.

On the PIAB proposals, which are a step in the right direction, I worry that the statutory limitation period for personal injuries actions that citizens currently enjoy may be changed three years to one year. This should be checked. It could lead to problems such as those that could arise when the smoking ban comes into effect. I foresee a constitutional challenge in respect of the statutory limitation if the inherent right to make a claim is interfered with. Perhaps a delegate will address this.

Three members of my family are of an age at which they require insurance. Last spring I and my oldest lad, who was 21 years of age and had a full licence, phoned 11 insurance companies listed in the Golden Pages and each said it would not give a quote for a male under 27 years, regardless of whether he had a full licence. Perhaps Quinn Direct or some of the newer players in the market might be different.

Young people of 17 to 27 years are the market of the future. When I needed £200 in 1976 to do my final law exams, two banks refused me a loan, whereas another did me a favour. I always remember the one that helped me out. However, there is scant regard for the younger generation, 95% of whom are very honourable. If they get a licence they know the law and, by and large, will not drink and drive. They have a great respect for the law and the penalty points system. This niche of the market will bring itself to bear on some of the big players in the next five to ten years and, in this context, I issue a word of caution.

Mr. Murphy mentioned a list of companies which are allowed to trade here but which do so on a very limited basis. The joint committee has been very anxious to see further competition. Any proposals the delegates have in this regard would have to allow for the fact that a company might not wish to set up a full representative office initially but may yet enter the marketplace. We are conscious of the fact that the consumer can benefit only from competition.

Do the Quinn Direct representatives know of any study of the black box, whether it be for cruise control or the assessment of accidents, which shows how it could assist in the reduction of insurance premia?

Mr. Murphy may reply, followed by the representatives of the Irish Insurance Federation and Quinn Direct. We hope to conclude by 11.30 a.m. if possible, perhaps a little later. Many questions have been asked and the delegates may share them.

On Deputy Lynch's question, I would love to be able to predict the future but unfortunately I cannot do so; if I could, I probably would not be sitting here. More seriously, insurance companies use experience to extrapolate what will happen in the future. If the PIAB could anticipate a reduction of a certain percentage in the overall cost of claims, we could then specify the impact on premiums. In answering Deputy Howlin's question, I was avoiding committing myself to something that may not be delivered. I did not want to go down that road. This responds adequately to that question.

We are all working hand in hand to deal with fraudulent claims. The reality of life is that most people are honest by nature. We have a certain amount of fraud and this is being dealt with. Of greater concern is the culture in which attempts are sometimes made to exaggerate claims. We need to deal with this. The necessary cultural change has begun and, with the help of the joint committee, it can continue, after which we will not have to deal with exaggerated claims.

The manner in which penalties are dealt with is really a matter for the joint committee. Our commitment - we stand over our record - is that we reflect what is happening in terms of claims costs and pass it on on the premiums side. Again, I point to our results which clearly show we are not making super profits or anything like it. We are not even getting a return on capital. This is a fact and the position over five and ten years.

Deputy Dempsey had a reservation about the PIAB.

The tide has turned in the past 12 months.

Admittedly, it has.

We will accept Mr. Murphy's bona fides on——

I want to return to my point and tie it to another question, namely, that on competition. We welcome competition but welcome it on a level playing field, not on the basis of somebody cherry-picking individual risks, destabilising the market and then leaving. If one is committed to the market——

Does Mr. Murphy's organisation quote everyone?

Yes, we do.

On Deputy Dempsey's question, if an appeal goes to the court and awards are higher than those of the PIAB, the PIAB becomes ineffective and only adds another layer of costs. This is a concern. However, I do not believe it will be the case and this is why we are supporting it. There is a possibility, albeit slight, that it might happen, thus adding a layer of cost that would be in nobody's interests.

Senator Coghlan asked about our attitude to penalty points. We welcome them and believe they have improved driver behaviour. In terms of a rating factor, how do we recognise good behaviour? We do so by way of a no-claims bonus. We continue to monitor what is happening regarding the penalty points system. When it is fully up and running and interactive, we would like to have the information it could provide. It would assist us in making determinations and cross-checking other information we may have received, which is inaccurate in some cases. In the longer term this would lead to lower costs because we are under-rating some business if we are getting inaccurate information on proposal forms.

Mr. Kemp

A number of members have referred to the €183 million profit made by the motor insurance industry last year. Deputy Wilkinson has asked if companies will give refunds for alleged unjustified and unfair premiums in recent years. It is worth underlining that last year's profit in the motor insurance industry was exceptional. Over the five years, a fraction of 1% of premium has been derived——

We all accept that and that the industry went through a very difficult time.

Mr. Kemp

With specific reference to liability insurance, there has been an operating loss every year for the past five; it amounted to €56 million last year. I am not sure what part of the total loss we are expected to give back.

At what time could we assess the public liability insurance and employer's liability insurance end-of-year figures, comparing like with like?

Mr. Kemp

The blue book, which has been published until now by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and which will be published by the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority in future, has been issued every December for the previous year. Everyone is agreed that this is too late. I believe the authority will be making an effort to compile the statutory returns and publish the blue book earlier next year. We have been able to publish our fact file based on our returns from our members in August-September and hope to do so earlier next year. However, it will be at least mid-year before complete results for 2003 are available.

I asked Mr Murphy when would be the most opportune time to assess the end of year figures for both public liability and employer's liability insurance, particularly the latter in terms of jobs. He stated it would be the end of February or the first week in March. When does Mr. Kemp's believe the most opportune time would be? We have been asked by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to be the watchdog committee for the duration of this Government. As Deputy Howlin stated, we want to work hand-in-hand with the industry. We must solve problems together and we are not in the business of knocking anybody because the industry has to make a profit and customers have to get value for money. This is the viewpoint of Deputy Lynch and all committee members. We want to know the best time for us to make an assessment in conjunction with the industry rather than doing so when the joint committee considers it opportune. I just picked week 43 on behalf of the committee because it was probably the last trading week before we decided to revisit this topic in this session. It was picked at random.

Mr. Kemp

Any week could be used for the joint committee's comparison of average premiums for a sample of businesses provided the same week from the previous year is used in making the comparison. It is relatively easy to do and, therefore, there is no particularly opportune time. If one wants the full year figures for the companies, individual companies may be able to provide them from February or March onwards but the market figures cannot be provided until after the middle of the year, probably July or August.

We do not want to sit during August again next year.

Mr. Kemp

However, one can do the survey——

We will have three elections next year and want to be able to include any assessment that takes place into our working diary.

Mr. Kemp

Meaningful information can be obtained at any time along the lines of what the joint committee has just been doing.

Is Mr. Kemp happy enough with that?

Mr. Kemp

Yes. On the question of why there are not any more competitors given the €183 million profit, we are seeing that there are. This has also to be seen against the background of the longer term results in the motor and liability insurance markets. However, having said that, there is certainly increased capacity this year.

Senator Coghlan asked about the allocation of overheads between classes of business. It is done as accurately as possible based on the actual expenses incurred in servicing each type of business. For instance, one will see from the blue book that there is a much higher expense ratio with regard to property and liability insurance business than motor insurance business. The allocation is made as accurately as possible and there is some sharing of expenses. Each company can give the joint committee more detail on how it does this but, in general, surveying costs and extra costs of processing the business would be reflected in the expense ratio for that class of business.

Deputy Lynch asked about the lack of information in respect of motor insurance. I certainly would not accept that there is a cartel in operation. There is considerable and very pointed competition between companies. The Competition Authority is certainly studying both the motor insurance and liability insurance markets and we expect a report from it some time next year. On getting quotes for private motor business, I understand that the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority is in the process of setting up some form of quotation engine on its website. I do not know how soon it will be up and running but it may be another resource from which one can get information on what quotes are available in respect of individual cases.

Would the Irish Insurance Federation engage with all its members to ensure there is one focused website or location where all its members would quote for any business? Is that outside the standing orders of the federation?

Mr. Kemp

I believe it is outside our remit. Given that IFSRA has taken the initiative on this matter, there would possibly be a duplication of effort if we were to do so.

Deputy Wilkinson wants to ask a further question, as does Deputy Hogan. When they have done so, I will ask Mr. Lunney to conclude.

In reply to Mr. Kemp, who asked what part of the industry's losses it should return? Let me outline three cases with which I am familiar. A small builder's premium increased €11,000 to €35,000 although he had made no claims. Another small builder without a claim saw his premium increase from €4,000 to €12,000. The premium of a transport business, which made no claim in recent years, rose from €17,000 to €36,000. These increases are utterly unjustified and it is on this that I based my original question.

The Deputy has an obligation to tell those concerned to shop around, based on what we have heard this morning.

However, these increases happened and that is why I made my point. We have forgotten what has happened and, in all fairness, the increases involved were totally unjustified.

There is one question I wish to ask Mr. Murphy. When I was speaking earlier on returns on investment income which would make a contribution towards reducing premia and improving the profits of a company, I was amazed to discover in the blue book of 2001 that there had been a loss of €2 million on investment in spite of the significant technical reserves of over €600 million.

If one looks back to the late 1990s, one will see that we had significant investment returns because we were investing in equities. With the fall in equities the capital value dropped, as Mr. Kemp explained. It is not just a case of investment return but also of the changes in the capital values.

What percentage of technical reserves are allocated to motor insurance?

We allocate based on investment return across the board. When we are pricing motor insurance we price it on the pay-out period. Obviously, the impact of investment income is much greater on liability insurance than on motor insurance because there is a much greater period over which we hold the premium.

What proportion of reserves are allocated to motor insurance?

About 50%.

Mr. Lunney

On the question raised by Deputy Dempsey on whether we have reservations about the PIAB, our position is that anything that will fast track claims through the legal process is good. Certainly, the question whether the Law Society will seek to obstruct it must be considered, as must whether the PIAB will be another channel into the legal system. Will potential claimants be given an opportunity to take the legal route afterwards? This could be a stumbling block but it is for not me to decide. In principle, the PIAB is a good thing.

On the question of the time limit, one year should be the recommended period. We are not recommending that arbitration should be employed. Our presentation contains reservations about the fact that it should be employed by policyholders. We have concerns about this issue and we ask the joint committee to examine it.

Has Mr. Lunney an alternative to the very real point made to us by policyholders that, when they want to fight cases, they are helpless victims when the insurance companies simply decide to ignore their views? Is there a mechanism in place to address this?

Mr. Lunney

It is a question of how any insurance company is servicing its clients. Our objective is to work right through the legal process from day one with the client in the event of a claim. If we end up in circumstances where an arbitration is taking place, we have lost the case in any event and have lost the client in question. Our objective, from a service perspective, is to be on the ground, talk and continue to talk to clients, make them aware of every——

From an industry perspective, would Mr. Lunney prefer to have a smaller pay-out and condone fraud or to take the hit on the pay-out and tackle fraud?

Mr. Lunney

We do not condone fraud but where a difference of opinion arises between an insurance company and the insured, the company has to have the right to settle that case because it ultimately has to carry the can for the next five years.

What if the policyholder identifies a false claim and states he can prove it in court?

Mr. Lunney

We would fully support that client and would do so in any circumstances where a potential fraud is involved. We would seek cases to put through the legal system in that regard. If people cannot agree, a problem will arise. This is ultimately a matter of services.

We were asked if there was a cartel operating. I state categorically that Quinn Direct is not part of any cartel. We have difficulty getting anybody to talk to us, as we have mentioned before.

Deputy O'Donovan asked about the PIAB and the reluctance of insurance companies to offer quotations to young motorists. We will certainly provide a quotation for his 21 year old son.

Senator Hanafin asked about changes in perspective owing to the black box. Quinn Direct does not use this system. It has assessed it and may do in the future. Certainly, there is benefit in bringing something into play that would introduce consistency to the level of awards and the standards associated with injury costs. We use our own in-house system. It involves a hands-on approach of looking at each case individually. We have a number of in-house experts to assess each case. We have not gone down the route of the black box but there may be some merit in it.

I thank Allianz, Quinn Direct, the Irish Insurance Federation and the members of the joint committee for their contributions. We have had a most informed start to the resumed hearings on this issue.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.35 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 13 November 2003.
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