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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND EMPLOYMENT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Jul 2009

Retail Trade in Ireland: Discussion with Competition Authority.

I welcome from the Competition Authority Mr. William Prasifka, chairperson, Ms Carol Boate, manager of the advocacy division, and Mr. John Evans, manager of the monopolies division. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

This meeting was arranged some weeks ago to discuss a number of issues pertinent to the joint committee's ongoing examination of the retail trade. It is a follow-up meeting to a previous discussion between the committee and representatives of the Competition Authority. The authority published the retail related import and distribution study yesterday. It was charged with carrying out the study by the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Unfortunately, members have not had an opportunity to peruse the report as we first received a copy this morning. As we did not have advance notice of it, we would like to have a further meeting to engage in a detailed evaluation of the document and ask relevant and pertinent questions.

Given the inevitability that the report will be alluded to, I ask Mr. Prasifka to provide a brief overview of its contents. Members may then be in a position to raise some general questions. While members of the media may be under the impression that the meeting is being held to discuss the Competition Authority's study of the retail trade, that is not the case. The focus of today's proceedings is an examination of issues in the retail trade. We have struggled in this endeavour in a number of respects in recent months and have been disappointed by the lack of co-operation received from many of the large organisations involved in production, wholesale and retail. As a strong committee of the Houses of the Oireachtas, we are not receiving the degree of co-operation we had anticipated.

I have no doubt the Competition Authority's report on the retail trade will feature during the meeting. However, the joint committee is not yet in a position to subject the report to the searching analysis it would like. Questions will, therefore, be of a general nature. Nevertheless, given the experience of my colleagues on the committee, it is possible they will have quickly absorbed the details of the report.

Mr. William Prasifka

Thank you. I will be pleased to return to the joint committee once it has had an opportunity to digest our lengthy and technical report. I remind members that it was compiled at the request of the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Mary Coughlan, and that the timing of its delivery to the Tánaiste and publication was outside the control of the Competition Authority. We sought to publish it as soon as we could, which was yesterday.

I will make a few introductory remarks, after which I will give an overview of the report, as the Chairman requested. I wish to bring to the attention of the joint committee certain matters concerning the record of the Competition Authority. In the past three years we have secured 31 convictions on indictment — criminal offences — in the competition area. Convictions have been secured in relation to three sets of cartels, namely, the home heating oil cartel, the Irish Ford dealers' association cartel and the Citroën dealers' association cartel. The level of fines to date has been significant by any measure and is approaching €600,000 in total.

The important point from our perspective is that judges have been very much seized with these cases and recognised that competition offences are serious crimes against consumers. In the judgment of the High Court released on 23 March last Mr. Justice William McKechnie noted that the only real and effective deterrent for those involved in this type of unlawful behaviour might have to include a prison sentence and that the serving of a custodial sentence was near at hand. He added that if the first generation of carteliers had escaped prison, the second and present generation almost certainly would not.

When I took up my position three years ago, the Irish approach to the criminalisation of competition offences was an outlier within the European Union. All other EU countries treated such offences as administrative in nature at the time. The Competition Authority was given direct decision making powers. An important sea change has been taking place throughout Europe, not only as a result of the work of the Competition Authority. The High Court judgment of 23 March has sent reverberations throughout the European Union and there is a growing interest throughout the Union in the idea that criminal sanctions and personal deterrence are essential for competition offences. We view this as an important sea change.

Convictions could not be secured without the dedication and expertise of the staff of the Competition Authority who frequently have to put themselves in difficult positions using their enforcement powers. These decisions are not taken lightly, nor are staff free to choose which cases they work on. It is due to their dedication and the great support and expertise of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Office of the Chief State Solicitor that we have arrived at this point. A considerable amount of work remains to be done and we need to drive forward the process. Nevertheless, it is fair to note substantial progress has been made.

It is important to note that the Competition Authority's advocacy work is a statutory function. We have principal responsibility for looking after the interests of consumers and taxpayers, the groups we represent. This often brings us into significant conflict with a variety of sectoral and industry interests which are free to make robust submissions, whether privately or publicly, and do so regularly. Frequently, the authority comes under severe challenge and criticism which we accept as part of our statutory responsibility which we will continue to undertake in sometimes difficult circumstances.

I propose to provide an overview of the Competition Authority's retail related import and distribution study which was compiled at the request of the Tánaiste. I will focus briefly on the set of circumstances which gave rise to her request. It has become patently clear in the past year that a gap has opened up between the prices charged at retail level in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. There has been a significant consumer reaction to this divergence which is of great concern to us at a number of levels. It was important, therefore, to ask what was the underlying reason behind the differences in retail prices. One important hypothesis suggested was that suppliers were charging too high a price to retailers and Irish retailers could not secure access to prices and terms and conditions their counterparts in the United Kingdom or elsewhere could secure.

The terms of reference of the study we undertook were to examine the supply chain. We were given a short period in which to compile the report. We were also aware that the matter was one of great urgency. We examined three areas, the grocery, clothing and pharmaceuticals sectors, and came to certain conclusions.

What we found in the grocery sector was that there was significant reaction on the supply side as a result of the price differential that had opened up. We saw some retailers actively seeking to renegotiate terms of trade to seek better prices. Of course, this was helped in no small part by the fact that UK wholesalers were turning up in Ireland. Trucks and vans were moving between Ireland and Northern Ireland in reaction to these price changes. Many Irish retailers operated successfully in the UK and therefore had access to whatever terms of trade existed in that jurisdiction. Particularly in the grocery market, we have seen two important new entrants, Lidl and Aldi, which have chains of distribution and supply that are not so reliant upon the UK but are more focused on their continental suppliers. With this amount of flexibility in the system, we saw a lot of reaction and therefore we could not conclude that the suppliers were the source of the price differential on the grocery side.

The other way to put the argument is that significant adjustments were taking place in the market on the supply side in reaction to what was happening on the ground. After the completion of the report, we now see increased price competition at the retail level in the grocery trade, which is related in part to further adjustments on the supply side. That is welcome because we need to have a vibrant retail sector, not one that is constantly losing market share to Northern Ireland. For example, Northern Ireland retailers without any shops in Ireland have, according to the latest figures I have seen, a 3% market share of the Irish grocery market. That is simply a fact we must come to grips with.

That is what is happening in the area of groceries. If we look at the opposite end of the spectrum, which is pharmaceuticals, we see a very regulated market with less flexibility in terms of distribution and supply arrangements. We do not see the same types of adjustment taking place there. In terms of price differentials opening up at retail level, it is hard to see how the market on the supply side will adjust, simply because the retailers do not have same amount of flexibility in terms of bringing in alternative suppliers.

Clothing is between the two areas mentioned above. We must remember that many of products — in fact, almost all of them — are sourced outside the sterling zone. Therefore, it is not simply a case of the cost being directly affected by the depreciation in sterling. We see at the more generic, low-cost level that retailers have a large amount of flexibility, although for clothing there tends to be a longer time lag because of the nature of the product and the way it is sold. Thus, there will be a slower pass-through. We do not see a problem on the supply side for lower cost items, but in terms of branded products — especially higher priced products which have more limited volumes — the international brand suppliers and distributors are able to control the distribution system more tightly. In this regard, we are concerned that there could be continued market segmentation, which raises competition issues. This is something that been highlighted for the future work of the Competition Authority, perhaps not by report but by using some of our other powers.

We did not get a chance to go through the whole report. It is a pity about the timing, but we can do it again.

In the Competition Authority's investigation on behalf of the Tánaiste, was it asked to find out whether there was any evidence of unfair practices, charges or other procedures preventing suppliers of goods from getting their products onto the shelf? The area of "hello money" and similar practices was discussed yesterday on the radio and I noted that a certain gentleman avoided the question and it was not answered. There has been much insinuation that this is going on, yet we cannot get confirmation of it. Did the authority come across it? It was included in the terms of reference of the authority, from what I can see here.

The issue we have had was in trying to establish the reasons for the price differences. In the report it is mentioned that the increase in prices has been going on for the past eight years, with yearly increases greater than those in other countries. I question how useful the consumer agency has been if it took eight years to show that this is happening. In future the operations of the agencies will be joined together so I hope we will have more regular reports on prices. Last June's report was the first to show this, but it had been let go for eight years.

There were three main areas in which we found the causes of the problem. The first was sterling differentiation, which is dealt with quite well in the report and can be put to one side. The second was the cost of doing business, which was also dealt with well in the report, although Mr. Prasifka did not mention it just now. It has been made a significant issue in this report that the cost of doing business in this country is excessive and has the greatest impact on our competitiveness. This is within the control of the Government and local government. Any such reports need to focus on this and get the message across to whomever is listening.

The report also mentions economies of scale and states that these have a considerable impact. Larger international retailers have larger network distribution channels and greater buying power. However, nobody has been able to put a percentage value on it. If prices are 20% or 30% greater in the Republic, what percentage of this can be attributed to economies of scale?

The report mentions the Irish premium, which is a key concept. It clarifies what we have been thinking, which is that some retailers are taking a premium in the form of higher margins. Is that the case? Mr. Prasifka mentioned the Irish premium so I take it that is a relevant point. I ask him to elaborate on it. If we are being ripped off that is what we want to focus on. We accept there will be some differences in price due to economies of scale, but we must get to the root cause.

The area of pharmaceuticals was mentioned. This is a major problem, although perhaps Mr. Prasifka cannot talk about it fully because it has become a larger problem overnight, with many shops simply closing down or handing back their Government contracts. Where do we go with this? There seems to be a serious breakdown. The pharmacists claim they cannot cut their margins any further. The Competition Authority claims they are at 50% while they claim they are at 33%. There are serious problems in this regard and we cannot continue in this manner. The pharmacists say they will go out of business. I accept that part of the problem is that pharmacists may have made commitments based on previous margins and now the Government wants to drive these margins down, but if they are not allowed to switch products or change to generic drugs, we have a problem. Whose fault is it and what are we going to do about it? It is a major issue.

There seem to have been major changes in supply chains and all our retailers have had massive price reductions. My understanding is that some shops in the North have put their prices back up. It is now time for another study to show that the price gap may no longer be 20% or 30%, so that we can stop this massive movement of people. My own evidence is that there have been large increases in the prices of certain products in the North, while at the same time we have had good reductions down here. Thus, there has been some movement. However, it has been more than a year since we had a real report on this. Somebody, whether ourselves or the National Consumer Agency, needs to come out and say whether there have been changes to get the message out there. Our economy has suffered considerably because of this issue and we all have a duty to convey the message that there have been changes. I believe there have been changes, although they have probably not been enough. There is still room to do more.

Mr. William Prasifka

I thank the Deputy for his questions. The area of unfair practices, including hello money and slotting allowances, presents a particular challenge to the Competition Authority because we have enforcement powers in those areas. Due to the legal circumstances in which we operate, it is difficult for us to write a report about an enforcement matter as we would be concerned that it would make it more difficult for us to launch any kind of investigation. In answering the Deputy's question, I do not want to get involved in too much detail because of those circumstances.

I understand that.

Mr. William Prasifka

There are two types of practices which must be distinguished. The payment of hello money or compelling or coercing of slotting allowances is an offence under the Competition (Amendment) Act 2006. Such activities have been an offence for some time. It is also noted that suppliers give marketing support and promotional allowances and they will say as much quite openly. This is especially the case in retail practices in the Irish retail market. Let us consider the grocery sector. There is a high level of promotional activity. If one walks through any large supermarket at the end of a given aisle one sees two for one offers, three for two offers and 50% off. These promotions are supported by suppliers and there is nothing illegal or necessarily anti-competitive about it. This has been a widespread practice. Sometimes it is difficult to draw the line between compelling and coercing hello money and slotting allowances and these other practices but it is something we are willing to do.

When complaints arise we investigate them but to bring a case we need a person who says, not that money has been paid, because that is not an offence, but that he or she has been compelled or coerced to pay. That is the critical point for us. Let us leap ahead to where the argument is headed. There has been a view that because people are afraid of being delisted no one will come forward. The problem is if people are afraid to come forward to the Competition Authority. Under the Competition (Amendment) Act there is also a private right of action. If people do not wish to come to us, they may take a case in that way. Such cases have not been brought and there is some suggestion that an ombudsman should be put in place, a matter on which the Department is working and we defer to it on that. The issue that must be addressed is if these people are afraid to come to us or afraid to go to court then what is it about an ombudsman that would make them more likely to come forward. That is a conundrum to which we do not have any particular solution. The committee asked if we encountered this. We read the newspapers and the accusations made but we cannot comment about criminal investigations. However, I emphasise for the authority to bring a case people must come to us in the first instance and say they have been compelled or coerced to do these things, a burden we must overcome.

Without hard evidence nothing would hold up in a courtroom.

Mr. William Prasifka

We have said publicly that we have only received a handful of complaints in this area in the past three years. We also received some anonymous complaints but these are no good in terms of launching a criminal investigation. We cannot go forward with anonymous evidence, it is simply not possible.

Is Mr. Prasifka surprised given the anecdotal evidence — I understand the difference between types of evidence — that people have not emerged given the significant degree of complaint and annoyance in this area?

Mr. William Prasifka

It is puzzling to us because if one listens to the rumours and complaints, some people say significant extortion is ongoing. However, we are a criminal enforcement agency and we need people to come forward and this simply has not taken place.

I will put some questions at the end about enforcement powers and I will revert to the matter. Among the reasons cited for a fair trade office or ombudsman is that the presence of such a body might drive some changes. It would have the same problems as the Competition Authority in terms of people coming forward but the presence of such a body seems to have worked in other countries. Perhaps we can revert to the matter at the end of the discussion.

Mr. William Prasifka

Several other questions were put. The Deputy asked why it has taken six years for the current situation to unfold. It is obvious the depreciation of sterling has been a significant driver in this area and it has highlighted or brought to the fore a significant price differential. It is also important to see this as something more than a once-off event. In these circumstances the depreciation of sterling may be a once-off event but the ability of an economy to adjust says something about the underlying competitiveness within the sector. We have been concerned about the grocery sector and as previously reported, we believe it is a highly concentrated sector. Everything must be done in a robust matter to encourage new entry and to reduce the level of concentration.

A Deputy questioned why the National Consumer Agency has not done more in these areas. I remind the Deputy that the NCA, an agency on the board of which I sit, was only established on 1 May 2008. It has limited resources but has used those limited resources to become a significant driver in highlighting the differences in prices and it has made a very important contribution to the debate.

The Deputy also remarked on the reasons for the differences, including the sterling differential and the cost of doing business. I am pleased, in terms of the launch of the report, that we have been able to highlight this and to get the message across that unless we tackle the cost of doing business, everything else may be somewhat irrelevant. If it cannot compete then the food sector has a very bleak future indeed. I have tried to indicate that it has come under very significant pressure because of the depreciation of sterling, its costs and changes in demand. It is a sector operating in a very challenging environment.

There is an even greater impetus on us to try to do something about the underlying cost of doing business. We were asked to provide a percentage breakdown of the contribution of the cost of doing business, economies of scale, the sterling differential and so on. We attempted to do so at an early stage in our report. It presents many econometric complexities that, in the short time available to us, was not something with which we could come to grips throughout the sector. The Forfás study into the retail sector indicated it put the amount of price differential due to the cost of doing business on the retail side at approximately 5% or 6%. We believe this could always be argued at the margins but is a fair estimate.

It is very difficult to quantify everything else. It is also somewhat difficult to quantify the size of the price differentials which have emerged, especially in the grocery sector. One sees two very different pricing models. In Northern Ireland the retail sector tends to have everyday low pricing as a basic retail pricing policy. However, in Ireland there is what is called high low pricing with promotions. If one compares the promotions to the everyday low pricing one gets a particular snapshot but if one compares the non-promoted products in Ireland to the everyday low pricing one gets another picture. There are complexities in all areas of measurement of the sector and this is very difficult for us to come to terms with.

The matter of the pharmacy sector was raised and there are great difficulties in that sector. However, the Competition Authority has examined this market for some time and it is heavily regulated. In such a market one does not see competition working in the same way as in markets where there is more flexibility, such as the grocery market. It is the case that there are problems in the sector but given the nature of the market it is difficult to see how competition would be a great driver of solutions. We believe it comes down to the very difficult negotiations between the Government and the sector. I am unsure if we have a good deal more to say about that.

The Deputy stated it was his belief that perhaps the gap in prices between Ireland and Northern Ireland was closing and perhaps other studies should be undertaken to examine the matter. This would require further analysis. It is a simple fact that according to CSO figures, in the first five months of this year grocery prices fell by 2%. I do not have the UK figures to hand, but I believe there is grocery inflation there. It is fair to say, based on that and other things I have read, that the gap is closing. It is very important that we follow up on this. Just as the widening of the gap was an important driver of change within the sector, it is something we should continue to look at and I welcome the committee's suggestion that we should continue working with the NCA to follow up on that gap.

Was there an Irish premium?

Mr. William Prasifka

This relates to the issue of quantification we mentioned before. As we noted in the report, there are two ways of looking at the issue. If one looks at it from the position of Irish consumers, it is quite obvious that they have brand loyalty to Irish products and are willing to pay more for them. There is nothing wrong with that and it simply indicates their preference for certain types of products. If by the "Irish premium", the Deputy means the extra profitability and mark-up that has been imposed by certain Irish retailers, it is simply a fact that the prices have been higher here. The reason is not simply explained by sterling or the cost of doing business. The fact is there has been an Irish premium which explains part of the price differential, but it is very difficult to quantify that.

It is stated on page 43 of the report that suppliers of products imported into the Republic of Ireland base the prices of products on the cost of the product and the cost of doing business, plus the margin, and, similarly to retailers, the margin is assessed by reference to what consumers in the Republic of Ireland are willing to bear. Who assesses that? Reference to what the consumer is willing to bear is as wide as a piece of elastic. A person who works in the media found that there was a 9% margin versus a 6% margin. Where does the margin come from?

It can be pushed as far as they want.

Exactly. Mr. Prasifka said they push it as far as the consumer is willing to bear, but if the consumer knows no better, it could be pushed to infinity. Does he have any view on where that comes in? The consumer has, ultimately, no choice.

Mr. William Prasifka

What we have seen is that the significant changes which have taken place and are mentioned in the report are consumer-driven. Consumers are going elsewhere. They are shopping at discounters such as Lidl and Aldi and are going to Northern Ireland. It is very simple. There is a very important issue here, namely, local competition. When one opens a shop, what does one charge? One sets charges in line with local conditions. That is why, for example, we strongly believe the grocery sector is too concentrated and more competition, particularly local competition, is needed.

Some of our research has found that there may be certain areas where one particular group or retailer has a very significant market share in a catchment area. It may be higher than 50%. It is something that requires very strong and immediate attention to have further competition to give more choice. The content of the report is almost a statement of the obvious. If one looks at the prices being charged, obviously they are a function of the cost of doing business. If one cannot recover the cost, one is not in business. The cost alone does not drive the price. The price is driven by the market conditions and competitive conditions in the market, and there are problems in that area in the grocery trade.

Many of the changes and adjustments have been consumer-driven, at a retail and supply level. Suppliers came to us and said they are very concerned that they are losing market share to Northern Ireland because the prices here are too high. They knew an adjustment had to take place. This was not in their interests. Consumers have been driving much of the change. The work of the NCA in this area has been very helpful and we hope consumers continue to go for better value.

I thank the delegation for coming in today. In his opening statement, Mr. Prasifka mentioned almost €600,000 in fines. In terms of the money the authority has spent on legal fees, how much has it spent on court fees appealing the decision on the Kerry Group and Breeo merger? How much does it expect it will cost to see that appeal through to the Supreme Court? Another case concerned the Irish League of Credit Unions. They are two particular cases, but where the authority has lost one case, how much were the legal fees? Last October, the Minister indicated that the National Consumer Agency and the Competition Authority were to be amalgamated. What is the current position on that?

Mr. Prasifka also mentioned the recent IPU dispute and said he did not have much to say on it. However, given that he issued summonses, clearly he had much to say and do regarding that dispute at the time. Certain summonses were issued to pharmacists. What happened to those summonses? What was the natural outcome of that dispute? There are now 70 fewer pharmacists than last year, which is a significant number. In the context of the overall numbers it may not be large, but 70 pharmacists equates to quite a number of jobs. The Competition Authority has a very narrow view of the market and ignores many of the implications it has on towns and villages around the country, as we have said before. I would appreciate if Mr. Prasifka could cover those points.

Mr. William Prasifka

Regarding legal fees, I would like to put them into two groups. The first concerns criminal prosecutions. To be clear, in those cases the Competition Authority is the investigative body. It does the investigation and prepares a file which is then given to the Director of Public Prosecutions. The prosecutions are initiated and controlled by the DPP, who is responsible for all the legal fees. In terms of the criminal side, the authority does not engage counsel or incur such legal costs. I understand it is not an issue for it.

On the civil side, the Kerry Group case is a matter which is under appeal and will go before the Supreme Court. The outcome and the issue of cost in that case have not yet been decided. I do not have the cost of our legal fees for that matter to hand. In terms of the case we lost regarding the Irish League of Credit Unions, it was a civil matter. We are responsible for the costs. I do not have the figures to hand for that matter. I do not know if those figures are in the annual report, but I know they go into the accounts. I will be happy to provide the Deputy with the figures on our costs, which were very substantial. When one loses a civil case, the costs are substantial and that is why we do not undertake civil cases or other cases lightly.

How many civil cases has the authority undertaken?

Mr. William Prasifka

Most of the civil cases we undertake are settled well before trial. I would have to examine the annual report to find the total number of undertakings and settlements we agreed to. Relatively few cases have gone to trial and the vast majority of them have been settled prior to trial.

I imagine the authority has a list of legal issues for each year in its annual accounts.

Mr. William Prasifka

Absolutely, and are happy to provide the Deputy with them. I do not have them to hand. He asked about the amalgamation between the NCA and the Competition Authority. It is no longer simply the NCA and the Competition Authority, but a portion of the consumer function of the Financial Regulator has been added. We have been working closely with the National Consumer Agency, NCA, and particularly with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment which has been drafting legislation and we have been fully engaged with it in that process. We have worked with the NCA to establish where synergies and cost reductions can be achieved by combining the two organisations. I have the great benefit of being on the board of the NCA, being familiar with it and having a good working relationship with its chief executive and board. I am confident that a smooth amalgamation can take place. The legislation is at an advanced stage but as that falls within the domain of the Department it would be better for the Deputy to direct his queries to it.

Is it the Department's fault for not drafting the legislation more quickly?

Mr. William Prasifka

No, it is nobody's fault. Significant work has been done but it is a complicated amalgamation and the legislation involves more than the amalgamation of two bodies. There is a fundamental review of the Competition Act, how it functions and what powers it endows. We have learned a great deal since the legislation was brought in.

When does Mr. Prasifka expect legislation to be finalised, based on his discussions with the Department?

Mr. William Prasifka

It is the Department's legislation.

I am asking for Mr. Prasifka's view.

Mr. William Prasifka

We hope to see legislation published in some form before the end of the year but it is the Department's legislation. We are very happy to have engaged, and have a good relationship with it. The Department is doing significant work and questions about timing should be addressed to it.

Deputy English asked about the IPU sector and I said that was a matter for the Department of Health and Children and the pharmacists to sort out. We issued summonses and the outcomes of those are summarised in our annual report. Several pharmacists gave undertakings that they would not collectively withdraw services and that is also set out in our annual report.

Deputy Andrews thinks the Competition Authority has a narrow view and that it ignores small communities or other factors. That has been an enduring criticism of it but I tried in my opening statement to emphasise that the authority has a statutory function. There is now a significant precedent domestically and at European level on the nature of competition law.

The Act states that our domestic competition law is based on European law which has been decentralised so that national competition authorities have a more important role in the enforcement of European competition law than they ever had in the past. That guides much of our thinking, particularly in respect of small communities. For example, in the grocery sector we are concerned, based on our reports, that in some communities there is a higher concentration of certain retailers and groups than we see nationwide. Such high levels of concentration do not serve the market. We think we need to do more, particularly at local level, with smaller communities, to bring in more competition. Competition is an important driver, particularly of welfare in small communities.

The IPU is involved in a new dispute. Has the Competition Authority initiated any action on that dispute? Is it following up on its last investigation or will it undertake a new one?

Mr. William Prasifka

That is a completely new matter. We generally do not talk about investigations or using our enforcement powers. Other people talk when we do something but we operate in particular legal circumstances and do not talk about those types of investigations. It is good practice not to mention them publically until proceedings are issued. That is how we operate.

When we are reading reports we try as much as possible to get tangible answers. Page 12 of the Competition Authority's report, paragraph 2.25 reads:

The third class of factors that lead to different price levels in the two jurisdictions [on the island] are supply side factors. As an island nation on the edge of continental Europe, the cost of transporting goods across the Irish Sea means that prices in the ROI may be higher compared to the UK.

It continues in paragraph 2.26 to comment:

While NI stores must also transport goods across the Irish Sea [which they do], the NI market is serviced by a greater number of large UK retailers, many of whom regard NI stores as being the same as any other UK store, with the result that they are often willing to offset any transport costs in order to keep prices the same across all UK stores.

The logic of that seems to be that if we abandoned our status as a republic and rejoined the Queen and Britain we would have significantly lower prices here because the retailers would regard us all as British and would write off these additional transport costs. That seems absurd. It tells me that we are being ripped off and there is enough in the margin for these big British suppliers to supply the North and absorb the transport costs but that they are not willing to do so here. If that is the case, and clearly it is, that is a competition issue. Does Mr. Prasifka accept my point and if so what will he do about it?

To follow Deputy English's comment we have met the retailers here and they too cite economies of scale saying that the British market is 60 million and ours is not even 6 million. If they use that as a reason for lower prices in Britain it must surely be quantifiable. There must be a mechanism for working out that economy of scale in some way. We know that the bigger producers are, the better the economy of scale but the bigger they are the less competition there is in the market. Has the Competition Authority worked out which it would prefer, a series of small suppliers or the economy of scale giving fewer?

There is much in yesterday's report that I would like to discuss but that is for another day because there is too much there and I cannot condense it sufficiently now to ask questions.

The Deputy is doing well.

What is there to stop the authority examining the accounts of the multiples which take hello money? If it saw that money had gone from the supplier to the company that would surely be against the flow one would expect. One would expect funds to go only from the retailer to the supplier. That is one example of why I think nobody is bothering their backside to take on these multiples which are squeezing small Irish suppliers to the point that they must recoup the cost some way. I would support the proposal for an ombudsman because the various structures we have now are not working. There is scope to condense them into one efficient, effective body.

Mr. William Prasifka

It is not within the remit or even the desire of the Competition Authority that we reunite with Britain.

I am glad to hear it.

Mr. William Prasifka

That is outside our remit, at least until amalgamation.

In all seriousness, that section of the report has been repeated constantly to the Competition Authority by a number of retailers and it cannot be entirely dismissed in this context. Many of the British retailers do treat Northern Ireland as part of the larger UK market and would not like to see large price differentials there. Many of these same British retailers, however, are also active in this market. That is a less compelling reason for the price differentials than was the case in the past. We are seeing more British retailers active in Ireland which do not want to see market share being lost to the North. As a result of the large price differentials, more shoppers are going to the North and that has driven change. The solution must be to make the Southern economy more competitive and the retailing scene more attractive. We are not in favour of any political solution along the lines the Deputy suggested.

We were asked if we could quantify the economies of scale and the effect they would have on price. This relates to the same econometric difficulties I explained in my response to Deputy English. It would be lovely if we could say there was a 30% price difference and that 5% was due to one factor, 6% to another and so on, but we would be fooling ourselves to think we could come up with that. The target for measurement is moving because prices are coming down in Ireland and going up in Britain.

We are concerned about levels of concentration in the grocery sector. It would be no solution if we simply had bigger shops and greater concentration. We are often unfairly accused of simply wanting every town to have one superstore and nothing else. That is completely wrong and completely opposed to what we believe. In our retail studies we have looked at competition at a local level and mapped all the shops in the country. We are concerned that in some towns there are levels of market concentration far in excess of the national level. One group could be at a figure of upwards of 70% in a single town, which is a matter of concern. It is not a solution to have one superstore which accounts for 100%. The point we have made is that larger stores can bring competition but not at the price of higher market concentration.

The Deputy asked why we did not look at the accounts to address the issue of hello money. The payment of money is not prohibited by the legislation, compulsion or coercion is prohibited. We know that promotional and marketing allowances are paid all the time, as can be seen on the shelves in any shop and it is not illegal. As part of our study we brought in many suppliers and asked them about paying money to supermarkets. They said they were investing in their brand. According to them, there are three cost elements: the cost of the product, the cost of distribution and the cost of brand promotion, an integral part of the strategy. It is not as simple as saying an offence has been committed if money is paid. It is not and it happens all the time. There must be an element of compulsion or coercion for an offence to be committed. Our enforcement record indicates we are not reluctant to take cases, but before we do so, we must have evidence. That is the issue we face.

Should we look at changing the law?

Mr. William Prasifka

When I took this job, I knew there would be challenges and we are focused on implementing what we have. It has been a difficult issue. We have enjoyed enforcement successes in other areas but not in this one. We are not about to throw in the towel, but the committee can understand our difficulties.

It is an issue we could discuss with ISME and the SFA.

When asked previously about hello money, the response was that there had been no more than a handful of complaints, some of them anonymous. That was a dismissive response, although perhaps it was not meant in that way. The response I would like to hear from the Competition Authority is that there has been a number of complaints, some of them anonymous, and that they will be pursued, rather than saying that as the complaints are at a low level, we will leave it at that.

In the summary at the beginning of the report, it is stated differences in planning regulations between the Republic and Northern Ireland have had an impact, with the likes of Asda not entering the market here. We looked at this matter and spoke to companies such as Tesco, Aldi, Lidl and Supervalu, players currently in the market here. We also visited Northern Ireland and spoke to retailers there and it is fair to say on this committee we are almost unanimous that the retail planning guidelines should not be changed. The only group calling for change was the Competition Authority. Is it the authority's view that Asda and similar companies cannot compete on the same sized playing field as those already in the market?

Mr. William Prasifka

I apologise if I gave the Deputy the wrong impression. We will pursue any complaint we receive. I was trying to indicate that there was a vast difference between the complaints we had received and the reports I had read in the media. That is a statement of fact. According to some media reports, certain Irish suppliers have been extorted of six figure sums. If that is true, it is a serious matter, but such statements in the media do not reflect the complaints made to us. Any complaints made will be pursued. The committee understands the constraints under which I operate as the head of a criminal and civil enforcement agency. The Competition Authority remains of the view that the ability of incumbents to argue in terms of local planning decisions that new shops should not enter if they can show there would be significant trade diversion from the existing incumbents turns the competition test on its head. The issue is not if incumbents will lose market share but the competitiveness of the locality, its vibrancy and level of innovation. That is where the concern should lie.

Will Asda enter the market if the guidelines are changed? The Competition Authority is not a sounding board for international retailers or for any retailers as to what they will do if the guidelines are changed. However, when we look at a market sector which is under-performing, such as the retail sector, thousands of people have been crossing the Border because they do not like what is happening in the retail sector. Looking at high levels of market concentration, the first thing any Competition Authority or sensible person would do is ask about the barriers to entry and whether it is too difficult to enter the market. It is unavoidable that the planning laws are a barrier to entry. We are accused of wanting every town to have one superstore. We are accused of wanting to abolish all planning. We did not say that. That is not what we believe. We believe the planners have a difficult job as they have to look at the social and environmental issues and a host of transport issues and integrated into that thinking should be a concern about competition properly understood about the need to reduce market share and to give people a choice. That is a very important factor in making the retail sector more competitive.

I welcome the delegation. In his presentation, Mr. Prasifka mentioned that he had examined 311 different planning applications and that the case team had to compile a significant amount of information from the 88 local authorities. Later in his presentation he said he could not give an exact number of local planning authorities contacted but estimated the number at approximately 20%. Is that information contained in the body of the report? If so, I cannot find it but maybe that is because I only got it this morning.

It is the view of many that vexatious objections are lodged against low-cost supermarkets coming into small towns to frustrate the planning process if one supermarket is seen to have a dominant position. I would like a breakdown of the local authorities consulted given that we all have anecdotal evidence of what is going on and we find planning decisions difficult to comprehend.

I would like to hear the view of the Competition Authority on the recent announcement by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, on reviewing the legislation in regard to "upwards only" rents as I do not see in the report any reference to the rents that are crucifying retailers within shopping centres and shopping malls. There may be a different mind set on the high street, but if retailers in out-of-town shopping centres cannot function because of "upwards only" rents I would like to hear the view on "downwards sometimes" rents. At a time of global and national recessions many retailers with the best will in the world have done a cost-benefit analysis of trading and prices between the Republic and the North but if retailers cannot pay the rent this report is irrelevant. That is an important issue. Therefore, "downwards sometimes" rents, in these out-of-town shopping centres or shopping malls, should be considered.

Mr. Prasifka referred to market power and the supply chain. We are all aware that we have to reduce the price of doing business. As a retailer, I am particularly familiar with "upwards only" rents and the problems of retailing. He states that it is therefore of the utmost importance that the abusive exercise of market power is not confused with the legitimate actions by businesses seeking to protect their businesses in the face of a fall off in consumer spending. Perhaps Mr. Prasifka could expand on that as I do not quite understand what he is getting at.

Mr. William Prasifka

I thank Deputy White. The statement about our contact with the planning authorities was in response to a request from the committee in regard to the planning report. The opening statement and the report which was issued yesterday is about a different matter. It is about the import distribution scheme.

Mr. William Prasifka

The Deputy asked whether the import distribution study sheds any light on that. No, it is about an entirely different matter. We contacted the local authorities in regard to understanding the 311 applications that we have. Much of the information we needed was publicly available. What was sought was clarification to understand the basis for those decisions. We did not undertake to do a complete analysis of every single planning application and its affect on the local area. We were trying to draw some broader conclusions about the way the retail planning system worked and whether it could be a barrier to entry and a restriction on competition.

In regard to the rent review and the "upwards only" review, the Deputy is correct. That is not dealt with explicitly in the report but it would be highlighted in terms of our concerns on the cost of doing business. Clearly what is needed in the current environment is increased flexibility so businesses can get their costs down. We would welcome anything that adds more flexibility to it. We have not undertaken an independent review of the work of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in this area but, obviously, anything that could bring down the cost of business would be welcome and ranks as an important part of it.

What we found in talking to several retailers in terms of the cost of doing business is that real estate is at the very top of their problems. International chains who operate here tell us quite freely that their real estate costs here, as a percentage of their turnover, has been significantly higher than for any of the other jurisdictions in which we operate. That would be a great cause of concern to us. We should see those costs reducing and anything that can increase the flexibility of reducing those costs, thus making us more competitive, would be welcome.

In terms of trying to draw the distinction between what is legitimate use of market power and what would be an abuse, in some regards it reflects the difficulties we face on the whole issue of hello money, slotting allowances and payments. There are many payments made by suppliers to retailers which are not an abuse, which suppliers do quite freely, which are an integral part of their brand promotion and cannot be characterised as an abuse while the abuse is compelling or coercing that. That is one way of thinking about those differences. It presents many significant legal problems. In particular, the Competition Authority would be concerned about any type of use of market power that could be seen as foreclosing competition, such as preventing goods or something from having access in other parts of the market. There are types of market power which are of great concern to us but as pointed out in the report there are economies of scope and scale which, in a competitive market, can be used to benefit consumers and sometimes the lines are difficult to draw but that is our job.

Just to clarify, will the Competition Authority look at the restrictive practice of "upward only" rents?

Mr William Prasifka

We would be happy to look at it but we have to do so through the lens of competition law. We would have to consider whether it was a restrictive agreement, an agreement between undertakings which restricts competition. That is the way we would have to look at it.

It is a matter for legislation to reduce rents. In fairness to Mr. Prasifka we should not sit on our hands. The party of which I am a member, introduced a Bill which should automatically have come before the House.

The Minister is——

Yes, but my view is that for any lease negotiated in recent years it should be possible to have a downward pressure applied as well.

Downwards sometimes. I agree with the Chairman.

Absolutely. When we talk about costs——

Can we legislate retrospectively?

I would say we can.

We are trying to do something about them.

The law did not make them. They are private contracts.

It is not a competition aspect.

It is not a competition aspect but in fairness to the Competition Authority, it referred to the cost of doing business and this is an integral part of the cost of doing business.

It is a key component.

It is a key component. I call Deputy Ned O'Keeffe, who has been extremely patient.

I am patient but I have little to say because much of what I wanted to say has been said. I welcome Mr. Prasifka and his team. I come from rural Ireland where we have many corner shops. Am I correct in saying that in terms of the policies being pursued by Mr. Prasifka's organisation, if we, as legislators, were wrong in drafting the legislation in the way we did, we will have only one corner shop in Athlone. We will all have to drive from Mitchelstown to Athlone. We have a population of 4 million. We are not as big as the Greater Manchester area where people can shop and do business.

On the Northern Ireland study versus the southern Ireland study, I understand all the Northern Ireland retailers truck in their food from distribution centres in Scotland and the north of England but as we are a sovereign state they all have their own distribution centres here. There is a cost factor for us in terms of scale, therefore, which has not been examined.

I am rather shocked that the authority got anonymous letters and did not act on them. In the past three or four years this jurisdiction got a great number of queries about anonymous letters about illegal activities taking place. There has been criticism of that, and people have referred to whistle-blowers and so on. A number of suppliers telephoned me about the blackguarding they get from major retailers, and Tesco is one of the dominant ones. Mr. Prasifka should not try to tell me otherwise. A report in today's newspaper states that Tesco removed 250 Irish products from its shelves.

The most eminent economist in the land came before a committee last week, at which I was not present, and stated that 100,000 jobs will be lost because of what is happening in the retail and small manufacturing sectors. We have our own distribution centres here but small producers in country areas who manufacture products such as breads and various other items and sell them to other retailers and small multiples are being told by a major retailer to take them to its national distribution centre. It is impossible for someone from Castletownbere, Kenmare, Mitchelstown or elsewhere to do that. Those are job losses to our society and our economy.

The issue of promotion and shelf space has taken off in a big way. I do not want to take from what Deputy Doyle might say later but in response to the Deputy in the House yesterday my colleague in Government, Deputy Trevor Sargent, stated:

However, I have heard references to "market support money", "advertising money", and "promotional money". ... That is why this code of practice and this retail ombudsman position are urgently required.

There must be a problem when a Minister of State, Deputy Sargent, who is an eminent person, recognises it. I do not want to take anything from what Deputy Doyle might say in his statement but an ombudsman must have statutory power. There is no point in having a voluntary ombudsman if he or she does not have statutory rights and obligations to investigate.

Large manufacturers are under pressure as well. Between promotion money and "hello" money we all know there is an agenda in place. That problem is not being investigated properly. As legislators we were probably wrong that we did not bring in different legislation but everyone appears to be at it now.

We must never forget that Ireland is a small country of 4 million people. We are not the Greater Manchester area. We cannot allow dominance by the big retailers, changing the planning laws and so on. Corner shops are vitally important to the people in the area I come from to buy the local paper, the packet of biscuits and the pound of butter on a Sunday morning. We cannot all drive to the large multiples, and they cannot be allowed become the dominant force in Irish society. We must be straight about that. I have very strong views on that.

I was a member of the previous enterprise committee and we opposed the change in the grocery order but we were beaten by a decision of another Minister. That was a retrograde step and it has been a disaster for retailers, the food industry and the small suppliers. We cannot be run by one retailer which wants to be a type of large hoover in society. That is not good enough. I am only reflecting what the people are saying.

I am not happy with what Mr. Prasifka said about hello money. I could not be happy because any other technology, or words used, about stocking shelves is another way of getting hello money. These people are being forced into paying promotion money. They have told me that because I am one of the people leading the campaign and fighting and arguing about this issue.

A large Dublin manufacturer rang me three or four weeks ago and told me a story. I will not give the name of the product but he employs a few hundred people. He asked me to do something for him and I told him I would do it if he gave me his name. He said he would be delisted if he did not do certain things. This is happening and Mr. Prasifka should not tell me otherwise. I have to present the case as honestly as I can but we want to be fair to both sides. It is amazing that there is agreement on all sides of the House on this issue at a time when our economy is going in a different direction and people have different views on how to sort out the economy. I respect Jim Power's statement last week because he is the most eminent and the straightest economist in the land who writes about the economy.

I do not know the significance of the last comment but in so far as Mr. Prasifka can deal with the issues raised I call him to do so.

Mr. William Prasifka

Yes, many of them touch on some of the issues we have raised previously. I share the Deputy's concern about market concentration. It is important to note that under the current planning laws we have a highly concentrated grocery sector and we believe the planning laws have been used to maintain that level of concentration and, in some circumstances, to prevent entry. That is not in the public interest. The planning laws must be amended and competition taken into account. The net effect of that must be a reduction in levels of market concentration. If that does not happen, the changes will have been a failure. We are not in favour of every town having one shop. The opposite is the case.

To repeat what I said previously, we follow up on complaints that have been made under the Competition Act 2006. When I said we cannot follow up on anonymous tips I mean we cannot follow up on e-mails we cannot trace or letters that are unsigned because we have no one we can contact but in circumstances where people come forward, they are all followed up.

Our record in terms of enforcement, although at an embryonic stage, is good and it shows that we make a good faith effort to develop cases where we can do so. Members should note, however, that this is an area where, in terms of the information brought to the Competition Authority, there is an enormous gulf between what other people have been told and what seems to be common knowledge in other sectors.

The Deputy mentioned that the United Kingdom may have a distribution advantage, and this explains part of it. That goes some way to explaining its cost advantage but to repeat what I mentioned earlier, many of those UK retailers are active in the Irish market and there is no reason they cannot benefit from those same economies of scale. We now have other international retailers, Lidl and Aldi, which have their own distribution networks and they can use those to benefit Irish consumers as well. I agree we are part of a small economy but we are also integrated within the wider European economy, and that should not be used as a reason the retail sector here is not as competitive as it should be.

I listened with interest to Mr. Prasifka earlier and a number of topics have been covered. I support in particular the point Deputy O'Keeffe made that we are a small nation of 4 million people and the large superstore does not always work for our society. There is cross-party support in this committee for the idea that we must preserve the smaller local shop while having competition within our communities.

Mr. Prasifka mentioned a few times something that is of great concern to me, namely, that in some areas there may be a greater concentration of one retailer, particularly in the grocery trade. I live in an area where I can go to one retailer but there are three large supermarkets less than ten minutes drive from where I live. I do not have the exact figure but I am concerned about the number of own products on the shelves of that retailer. The choice available to the consumer, therefore, is further limited.

Mr. Prasifka mentioned he would be concerned about the over-concentration of one retailer in a particular area and he mapped such an example. What can be done through the planning process to address that? Such dominance is creeping into the retail sector. There seems to be a plan to target specific areas to remove other competitors in the market and, as a result, the consumer is being left with very little choice.

Having quickly read the authority's report, which I hope to consider in more depth, it states in regard to the pharmacy sector that the 50% mark-up paid for the DPS and the LTIS is not justifiable. It also states that it recognises the price paid to pharmacies in respect of medical card holders. I have been contacted by pharmacists, 80% to 90% of whose businesses comprise medical card holders. They have told me that they will go out of business because they will no longer be able to afford to provide the service they deliver to their communities. In these areas the pharmacy is an important facility and the majority of the people in these areas may not be in a position to drive to the neighbouring parish or small village. Mr. Prasifka might address that aspect and advise us of his thoughts on it. It is an issue this committee will also examine.

Mr. William Prasifka

In terms of what can be done to drive competition at local level, it is something which we are concerned to ensure happens, and this is what we stated in the planning report. As part of the current planning framework, local authorities are required to carry out health checks on a periodic basis, whereby they examine environmental and social factors and how the market is operating. It is important that a proper competition analysis is integrated into such examinations, which should be undertaken not for the purpose of restricting competition but to identity those areas where competition is required and what can be done to achieve it.

For example, we have examined areas where there may be a high market concentration and have found that perhaps the most the recent entrant — there may have been a long period during which there was no entry to the market — is a Lidl or Aldi outlet. That type of entry is welcome, but a proper competition analysis would indicate that while Lidl and Aldi, which are fine companies, have been important drivers of competition, they do not compete on branded products. They can bring competition to certain areas of the market but not across the whole range of products consumers buy. While we would welcome the introduction of a limited range of own branded discounted products, we recognise that more work must be done.

In the context of such health checks undertaken by local authorities which take into account social and environmental facts, we do not suggest that those factors be set aside but that they should also examine high levels of market concentration and what can be done to introduce choice and innovation in the market.

What can be done in circumstances where planning permission has been obtained for three shopping centres and the developer has negotiated with the anchor tenant? The planning process does not dictate who the retailer will be. It simply approves the square footage of retail space. Planners have no control in respect of a tenant or have they?

Mr. William Prasifka

No, but in terms of our review of planning applications, we have noted that applications are made by retailers. We have found different levels of opposition in terms of third party oppositions based on the identity of the retailer. Planners need to be aware of those aspects. The net result is that we want planners to be able to bring more competition to areas, particularly to those areas where there are high levels of concentration which is not in the interests of consumers.

The Deputy raised the issue of pharmacists and what the authority can do in this respect. A difficult balance needs to be struck between the amount the Government is willing to pay and the amount of service that will be provided. We do not have much input in that respect. Where we run into difficulties is where any group of undertakings is collectively seeking to withdraw its services. That raises Competition Act issues, but our role is not to do what is the work of the Department of Health and Children.

As Deputy Clune said, it is important for consumers to have choice in the market. Some multiples are dominant in selling their own brands. What criteria does the authority use to measure competition in this area? Suppliers suffer as a result of such dominance. Their products are often indigenous and they are forced to fight for the limited shelf space available as a result of the large display of own branded products. It is not good for consumers to have the option of purchasing only one brand of a product, say, the O'Keeffe brand or the Clune brand.

Mr. William Prasifka

The own brand is a phenomenon that is growing in Ireland. When we first began to examine this market some time ago, we noted that the prevalence of own-branded products was a significant part of the UK retail establishment. I forget what the market share of such products was a number of years ago, but it was significant. It was quite apparent a few years ago that this trend was only at an embryonic stage in Ireland, but that is changing. More own-branded goods are being sold in shops. We have also noted that they compete in different ways in different types of markets. Sometimes the own label products are the discount, economy or the lowest quality of certain types of products, but in the case of other types of products, they are at the higher quality end and in the case of other products, the own brand will cover a whole range of different products. The effect that will have will depend on the particular products. It is more relevant to examine the product market in terms of our competition analysis, but we are aware this is a growing phenomenon. It is still true today that own label products in Ireland in terms of market share are significantly behind what they are in other jurisdictions, but undoubtedly there will be further growth in this respect.

The strength of certain retailers in terms of own brands makes it even more important to have more competition within the Irish sector. Consumers should have choice. They can go to some shops and buy own brands, but it is important also to drive competition in branded goods. The NCA surveys have indicated that in terms the price differential between Ireland and Northern Ireland for own-branded products the price differential is smaller. That indicates to us that we need more competition on the branded side. More entry to the market and more choice are required to ensure there is competition in respect of branded goods. Lidl and Aldi have been responsible for much competition in own-branded products but, by and large, they do not sell branded products.

I thank Mr. Prasifka for his presentation which I viewed on my monitor. He has been quoted as having said that falling retail prices are proof that competition works, which is true, but is it not over-simplistic to say that in view of the fact that the suppliers are facing competition, which current practices seem to allow but which are unfair and unethical in many cases? It seems the only people who cannot be examined with regard to their profit margins are the retailers. The Minister outlined that she had commissioned Forfás to examine the competitive costs in Ireland compared with those in the UK and the Netherlands. Among the key findings of that study was that the wholesale cost of goods for sale in stores was by far the biggest cost facing retailers and accounted for 75% to 80% of their costs. The evidence we have is at odds with that. How did Forfás get that information in the first instance? How did it establish that the wholesale cost of goods was causing the major problem, given that everything that we have been told subsequently indicates the opposite is the case? Has the authority the power to assess where the costs lie and who is getting the margin of profit?

Following publication of the authority's report, the Minister, Deputy Coughlan, said that it confirmed that there were no major systemic problems in the retail sector. Mr. Prasifka mentioned the fact that there is a need for more competition, but all the evidence and trends point to the fact that we will reduce competition by having fewer players in the field — more big players but fewer small ones. That seems to be what is happening.

If it is right then it is as simple as having proper legislation, which Mr. Prasifka has hinted at, to underpin fair trade. It is as simple as that and we should have nothing to fear. Let us see what people have to say. Yesterday I heard a chief executive of one of the major retailers, but he would not answer the question when he was asked if he favoured fair trade legislation and a code of practice. He said he did not favour anything that interfered with lower prices. One can read into that what one likes. If profit margins can be divvied out fairly between each line of the production chain then they should have nothing to fear. At the moment, however, it suits to have the primary producer and processors blaming each other for low prices and low profits. The other elephant in the room is the fact that we cannot determine what retailers' profit margins are. I would like to have Mr. Prasifka's response to that. I know he is doing a report but we need guidance on how to legislate for a fairer system.

Mr. William Prasifka

I thank Deputy Doyle for those questions and I will take them in order. When I suggested that competition is working and that prices are coming down, just to be clear, that indicates that it is working at the retail level. The supply level is a much more complicated matter and that is the subject of the entire report. It is undoubtedly the case that Irish suppliers, and food suppliers in particular, have an extremely challenging environment. Sterling has depreciated and their costs remain uncompetitive, so they are in difficult circumstances. Everybody agrees with that but the question is what can be done going forward. The Deputy asked how Forfás calculates the cost of goods sold. When they looked at the costs a retailer faces in Ireland they had to include energy, labour rent and other costs. Although there was a significant cost disadvantage particularly with the UK, one also has to examine the cost of goods sold. They could be embedded costs that did not reflect Irish costs, particularly if they were imported. I am not sure how they worked out that percentage. My colleague, Mr. John Evans, might refer to that.

Mr. John Evans

As far as I know they talked to a sample of retailers, constructed a cost profile for each of them and tried to weigh them up and come up with some kind of average that would be indicative of the sector. I think they based their sample on three different types of retailer: small, local retailers; large retailers; and others who operate in business parks. The profiles were constructed on that basis.

We have been struggling with these issues over the past six months. Most members of the committee would agree with me when I say we are highly disappointed with the lack of co-operation from the organisations involved in production, wholesale and retail in Ireland. We are particularly disappointed by organisations and groups who have declined to appear before the committee or to respond to a simple questionnaire. We knew they would not appear before us but we went to the trouble of furnishing them with a questionnaire. I compliment the Competition Authority because in chapter 8.13 of the report entitled "Stakeholders' meeting with retailers", I notice that on 23 March the authority had a meeting with Dunnes Stores' grocery and clothing area. Congratulations to the authority because many of them did not even feel it was worthwhile responding to this committee's questionnaire. I am not doing any of them a disservice in saying so. We felt they would not appear before the committee so we furnished them with a questionnaire.

Why does the Chairman not name them?

The Deputy knows that we will name them in the report. The Deputy was here on 19 November when the questionnaires were sent out. We formulated questions and invited them to make written submissions to the committee but they did not do so.

There should be standardised contracts. Below-cost or slot-in allowances of any description should be outlawed. That matter should be as much a part of the Competition Authority's remit as anything else. Section 4 of the Competition Act may reflect the literal interpretation of what the authority is about, but it does not reflect the tenor of the legislation as passed by the Oireachtas. I hope that has changed. A commitment was given in Towards 2016 to change that so that the IPU can be represented as a union, as Irish Actors Equity can. I firmly believe that is the stated view of the Oireachtas. Because the new measure is coming out, one chemist in Mullingar will have to let off four people. We are in a big rush for competition at a time when there is not a job to be had out there. We have a small shop at home, but all those small rural shops will be wiped out. The end result of competition, according to the Darwinian theory, is that the strong will survive. The big players will dominate and, as Deputy Ned O'Keeffe says, the hoover effect will apply. It will wipe everybody out. The end result of competition will be one big boy who will be able to charge whatever he likes because he will have wiped out everyone else.

Unfortunately, we have a vote now. I wish to thank Mr. Prasifka and his colleagues. We are grateful to them for their patience. It is one of the best committee meetings I have presided over. While I normally have a different view, I know the authority is charged with its responsibility. In fairness, it stands firm on its view and I admire that. In that context I thank the authority's representatives for being forthright and forthcoming. It was an interesting meeting. I can see them coming back here in the next couple of months.

I have a couple of comments to make when the Chairman finishes.

Yes, but we have to vote.

I will still make the vote on time. It concerns the authority's legal powers. As I said here before, we are not getting enough benefit from the authority because it does not have the proper legal teeth. It is not the authority's fault but we need to do something about it because it is too slow to get a result from the work it does. On Mr. Prasifka's comments on retail planning guidelines, we had this discussion before. The authority wants to release some of the size restrictions. I understand where the authority is coming from and vice versa, but the danger is that as a result of competition we could end up with that hoover effect, and one big player. That will result in less choice. It will also result in new tastes because our producers will be forced to manufacture for the bigger UK market and the products will then be sold here. We are going to change people's habits and tastes across the board, which is not good either. It is not real competition. By trying to get more competition we will end up with, potentially, less competition. There is evidence of that happening around the country. Maybe some day we will be able to agree on getting something done about that.

I must agree with Deputy English about unfair practices and infringement of competition. I call on the Competition Authority to let us know about areas we can bring into the public domain which will benefit customers, suppliers and retailers alike, as well as protecting jobs and encouraging fair and open competition and retail practices in Ireland.

I excuse the witnesses and I thank them for their help. The meeting is adjourned until 8 July 2009 at 10 a.m. when we will meet in private session.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.20 p.m. until a.m. on Wednesday, 8 July 2009.
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