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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENTERPRISE, TRADE AND INNOVATION díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 9 Nov 2010

Industrial Relations: Discussion with Labour Relations Commission

From the Labour Relations Commission I welcome Ms Breege O'Donoghue, chairperson, Mr. Kieran Mulvey, chief executive officer, Mr. Eddie Nolan, director of corporate and commissioner services divisions, and Mr. John Hennessy, board member. Ms O'Donoghue is also executive director of Penneys-Primark and a member of the national council of IBEC. Mr. Hennessy is also chairman of Ericsson Holdings Limited. I think I have got all the titles correct as that is important. I thank the witnesses for their attendance at today's meeting.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009 witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members of this committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms O'Donoghue to address the committee.

Ms Breege O’Donoghue

It gives me great pleasure as the current chair of the Labour Relations Commission to attend today's meeting. As the Chairman outlined, our team is comprised of the chief executive, Mr. Kieran Mulvey, Mr. Eddie Nolan, secretary to the board and director of corporate affairs, and board member, Mr. John Hennessy, otherwise director of LM Ericsson.

Members are aware that the Labour Relations Commission was set up under the Industrial Relations Act 1990 with the responsibility of promoting the improvement of industrial relations. In addition to a chief executive it has 46 employees, a proactive board with independent trade union and employer representation. In addition, there are 15 rights commissioners. The Labour Relations Commission's recommendation is to promote the development and improvement of industrial relations policies and practices through the provision of appropriate, timely and effective services to employers, trade unions and employees. What this demonstrates is that although the resolution of collective disputes has always been a core activity, the work of the Labour Relations Commission is not just about the provision of this service. From the very beginning the commission has evolved into a key public institution for the resolution of employment disputes and the promotion of co-operative, stable management in union, employee relations. Three divisions are responsible for the development and delivery of a broad range of flexible and innovative service initiatives and programmes. Our budget is €5.64 million, 71% of which goes on salaries.

The commission continues to be extraordinarily busy in the context of dispute resolution - both in relation to disputes of interest and of rights. We live in a time of unique economic challenges and the level of referrals to the commission mirrors the impact these challenges present in terms of business reconfiguration, collective bargaining, public sector changes and the investigation of alleged breaches of employment rights under 32 pieces of legislation.

The officers of the commission will outline some of these challenges in greater detail and the actions of the commission's services in addressing them. However, I wish to emphasise a number of areas in which the board of the commission has placed particular priority in recent months. First, the development and issuing of our most recent strategy statement for 2011 to 2014, Building Better Employment Relations in a Recessionary Period. This has five key strategic objectives. The first is getting through the recession. The second is developing a dispute resolution capacity. The third is focusing on the employment rights agenda. The fourth is participating in the public sector reform agenda. The time is right to dramatically accelerate the process of transformation across the public sector to provide a leaner, meaner and more effective public service and better value for money. The fifth key objective is promoting dispute resolution, prevention and management, and employee engagement.

Another priority for us is wholehearted support for the initiative of the chief executive and his team in chairing the negotiations which led to the Croke Park agreement and the resolution of outcomes from that agreement. In addition, we are also involved in reviewing current employment law and proposing the removal of various anomalies in legislation. We sponsored a report in that regard.

The commission is participating in a ministerial review group aimed at streamlining procedures for the investigation of employment rights cases in the various dispute resolution bodies. We are concerned with advocating and overseeing management initiatives to deal with the unprecedented level of referrals to the rights commissioner service in recent years. There were 5,500 referrals in 2005 and just under 16,000 in this calendar year.

The sixth objective is mapping employment relationship changes in the private and commercial State sector through a national collaborative project with IBEC, ICTU and the CIPD. The results of this research on managing human resources in a recessionary period and the focus groups established as part of this project under Professor Bill Roche of UCD and Mr. Paul Teague of Queen's University in Belfast, will be published by year end. A symposium outlining the findings, lessons learned and future policy programmes will be held early in 2011.

The board of the commission in pursuing its own business plans. We had the opportunity of a recent meeting with the Minister of State with responsibility for labour and public transformation, Deputy Dara Calleary, and his senior officials. At that meeting we outlined our current programme of work and the resources necessary to fulfil our task. As a structure and resourcing model of 20 years ago is no longer fit for purpose, these issues are currently being worked upon in tandem with departmental officials. We hope to have these addressed by the year end.

Ireland enjoys an international reputation for good and innovative industrial relations practices and employment law standards and the commission is at the forefront in promoting and maintaining those standards. Already, more than 1,500 conciliation conferences have taken place in the first nine months of this year and 5,500 hearings were scheduled in the rights commissioner service. The commission itself will be 20 years in existence in February 2011. Throughout that period it has contributed significantly, not alone to the record of industrial peace, but to many successful business transformations in the private and public commercial sector, including continuity of service in the public sector. It represents excellent value for money and has deservedly attracted the continued support of the major representative constituent bodies of employers and trade unions and indeed successive Governments.

Today, we face many, varied and unprecedented difficulties in the economy. The board of the commission is conscious of the necessity to ensure that all the services of the commission, advisory, conciliation and employment rights, continue to be fit for purpose and follow a value for money, lean and mean ethos in a public sector organisation.

I will now ask the officers of the commission to outline some important and current issues which the committee has asked us to address.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

I will give the committee a flavour of current developments in the industrial relations business environment we are currently facing. As members know, the national economy is in an unprecedented situation. Much of that is configured or reflected to some degree in the activities we undertake, particularly in terms of meeting the business and unemployment reality.

In tandem with what the chairperson has said, we must reflect the fact that Ireland enjoys a very stable industrial relations environment, particularly in the context of the tsunami that has hit us over the past two or three years. In the first two quarters of this year there have been only 11 disputes involving just over 354 workers. That contrasts dramatically with what is happening in the neighbouring island, the United Kingdom, where there have been rail, aviation, mail, transport and public service disputes with potentially more to come arising from the recent decisions.

Is the commission trying to keep that a secret?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

It is a competitive advantage here in the context of the industries we are attracting and in terms of what is happening in Spain, Portugal, Greece and France. It is an important strategic issue for us that in the past 20 to 25 years this country has constructed a stable industrial environment, regardless of what people think of previous periods of social partnership. Those structures have remained robust even though we do not have a national agreement in the private sector and we have one in the public sector. There are accolades this country should acknowledge, one of which is that with labour capital and public service management and Government we have managed to achieve a significant period of industrial peace. That is continuing and we hope it will continue.

Earlier this year we were in a position to conclude a public service pay agreement, the Croke Park agreement as it is now called. That has, at least currently, withstood a certain amount of criticism in the context of the change requirement that must be made under it. That is what the parties agreed to and it must happen. It has to have tangible, measurable delivery and must achieve that significantly over the next six to 12 months. Otherwise, the agreement and its efficacy will be called seriously into question, not only by those who are party to the agreement but by the general public and the political representatives. We are involved not as caretaker of that agreement but as a dispute resolution body in the context of issues that must be and are being addressed. It certainly got off to a slow start but I have a feeling there is momentum on this agreement, in light of the budgetary changes that are imminent not only nationally but also in regard to the provision of State services. I believe we will see a great deal of traction in the Croke Park agreement over the coming months. I hope we can be in a position to manage and deliver those changes without any reversion to conflict. As the committee knows, there are robust procedures including voluntary binding arbitration in this public service agreement.

Significant transformation has taken place in the commercial semi-State sector. We have been involved in this over the past six to 12 months. Over every two or three years there is significant change in these firms and companies, which are household names. We have been involved in all of them, ranging from energy to transport to aviation. That also reflects itself in local authorities and other areas.

In regard to the private sector, both indigenous and multinational, I doubt there is a company here that has not been affected by the international crisis. We are involved significantly in a great deal of transformation change management issues in the indigenous and multinational sectors. It is a mixed picture. There is some good news and much bad news at present in the context of the change that has taken place. However, one must also take cognisance of the fact that there is a continual stream of inward investment being attracted to this country in the multinational sector and that there are still 1.8 million people employed in this country in daily economic activity.

The main issues relate to pay, not so much basic pay as plus payments such as overtime, shift pay, premium pay and so forth. To a large degree basic pay has generally remained reasonably intact in most of these transformation agreements. The issue is competitiveness and outsourcing, including outsourcing within the multinational sector in other countries in which the multinational is operating. This has taken place with the considerable involvement of unions and management. In 85% to 90% of cases it has been done by agreement between both sides. An amicable settlement has been reached and there is no need for unilateral action to be taken that would lead to industrial conflict.

The biggest areas we have been involved in over the past six to 12 months are the financial services sector, the construction sector and the service companies to these sectors. Employment is haemorrhaging in these areas. Up to now in the case of the construction sector it has been marked by closure and, in effect, compulsory redundancies. In the financial sector it is largely still voluntary redundancy and early retirement. The question is how long that position can sustain itself in light of the downturn in business in the financial sector. We are awaiting probably some major news in that area in the next two or three months as banks readjust to their current financial and business circumstances. These are being done by agreement with the representatives of the unions involved.

Pensions has emerged as the serious major issue in a considerable number of employments as a reflection of the international markets. I doubt there is an employee in any company in this country lucky enough to have a pension scheme who is not seriously concerned about the status of their pension, the longevity of that pension fund and its future funding. We are already engaged in a considerable number of employments on reviews of pension schemes and the almost universal elimination of defined benefit schemes with a move towards defined contribution or hybrid schemes.

The other issue is the phenomenal growth in the employment rights and related cases, to which the chairman referred. It has moved from 5,500 cases in 2005 to an anticipated case load of 16,000 this year. Already, 12,000 were received in the first nine months of this year. On the one hand this is a reflection of the unemployment situation, where people have terminated their relationship with their employer, are taking the view that the termination has not been to their satisfaction and are exercising their rights under various legislative measures in regard to redundancy, payment of wages, holiday pay and so forth.

Over the past 12 months there has been the phenomenon developing of what we call multiple cases, which are emerging from the failure of either collective bargaining or collective agreements. At present, we have more than 6,000 multiple cases on our books which we have not processed to date. I will give the reason for that. These are largely, although not exclusively, under the Payment of Wages Act. A total of 95% of them are under that Act. We have received 4,375 collective cases involving three financial institutions over the non-payment of bonuses, national wage agreements and related payments which are covered by the Payment of Wages Act. There are 250 involving voluntary hospitals and 416 involving the closure of a multinational. In the run down in community employment schemes involving 93 employers there are more than 1,000 referrals. There are 100 to 120 in the aviation sector.

These are causing particular difficulties for the commission because under the Payment of Wages Act and the primary legislation establishing the rights commissioner service everybody must be given an opportunity for their case to be heard. In our quasi-judicial procedures it means they must have an opportunity for a scheduled hearing and to be heard. That means that if we were to schedule all these cases individually for the next 12 months alone, all 15 rights commissioners would be totally engaged and not one other hearing could take place. We have asked employers and unions who are representing most of these categories of people to agree to class action cases, in the sense that we would select ten to 15 from the grades. We are not getting a positive response in this regard, largely, I must say, from the employer side. A considerable number of employers have indicated a "No" to us. They want copies of every claim submitted to us which is impossible to do administratively with the resources at our disposal. We do not believe that, in efficacy, this is the right approach. Taking financial institutions, for example, of those 4,000 cases I mentioned all may be on different grades of pay, personal contracts, personal bonuses or personal types of payments. That is our difficulty at present. We are reviewing this but that is where it stands.

We are giving priority, however, to people who have lost employment. We feel to some degree they came in earlier and are precedent cases and we are trying to work our way through all of the cases. In the majority of cases the employment relationship was terminated by the employer. In a minority, but still in significant numbers, the employer is no longer solvent, is in liquidation or is not around to answer the correspondence from the commission. We find that a heavy volume of correspondence is returned to us.

In a nutshell, that is the enormity of the situation. We are constrained, limited, or protected, whatever way one looks at it, by legislation, both primary and secondary. We deal with 32 pieces of employment legislation, some of which are very detailed and some of which have their origins in the European Union and the directives that are transposed into Irish legislation. Our board has said, "Look, we can't leave this situation as it is. It must be addressed." Justice delayed is justice denied. People are entitled to have a hearing of their case so we are looking at ways of doing this. We undertook a study with the support of our parent Department and with an acknowledged law expert, Mr. Tony Kerr of the law faculty of University College Dublin, to look at the anomalies and inconsistencies in the legislation. With the best will in the world, over the past 20 years legislators have had to deal with an enormous amount of legislation, particularly in the area of employment rights, that has been transposed or domestically driven. There are inconsistencies and anomalies which we are trying to eliminate. We have presented the results of our study to our parent Department which is responsible for legislation and policy.

Through the employment rights review which the Minister has undertaken for the past six months with the dispute resolution bodies, we are trying to find whether there is a method by which legislation can be adopted or amended that would not require every case to be investigated; whether there might be a way by which we could use a clearing house, a deciding officer or a progression officer who would look at these cases and the related paperwork and contact the parties by telephone to see if they could mediate or effect a settlement without the necessity for the paraphernalia of a full investigation of the case, with the time constraints and difficulties that occur. We are looking at that at present and also at the possibility of creating a singular IT platform so there would be one point of receipt of all employment-related issues for the dispute resolution bodies. In that way a person would get one number and would be put in line, on schedule, and we would utilise a common scheduling system. At present, an employee or employer can potentially be asked by four or five dispute resolution bodies to turn up in the same week or on the same day in a multiplicity of locations, because of the multiplicity of claims. Therefore, we are looking at ways in which we can co-ordinate the legislation with the bodies and this may lead, in the interim or in the long term, to a consolidation of labour legislation. However, that is a matter for the Minister who has sole prerogative with the Oireachtas in that regard. It might also remove the most blatant examples, few as they are, of dispute shopping whereby people put in claims to all dispute resolution bodies on the basis of having their day in court, irrespective of the issues involved and whether they are appropriate. We have a strong tradition in this country constitutionally, administratively and in natural justice, namely, the right to be heard. We have to balance that against administrative effectiveness, and efficiency.

With all respect to the Chairman, we also have increased attendance by legal practitioners. There are now some firms which are involved exclusively in the representation of litigants in the employment rights area. That produces problems, first, of scheduling and availability and, second, it stops the user-friendly ethos. We are now beginning to find ourselves being more judicially challenged, if not judicially reviewed. Obviously, in that regard we must be careful to adhere to the principles of natural and constitutional justice. This is an element, however, that has come into the system over the past two or three years. Where there is more of what we may call the quasi-judicial element of the system there is more of the judicial than the quasi, user-friendly side in terms of the practitioners in the system.

That is an overview of our position. In summary, on the conciliation-advisory side of our activities, in preventive mediation, dispute resolution on interests and in trying to scope what is happening in the economy in terms of the employment relationship, we feel we are ahead of the posse in the sense we are matching our resources to the requirements. Members will see that product being produced on a daily basis. It is far more complicated and difficult to address employment rights because of the complexity of legislation.

I thank the delegation for its presentation which was very interesting. The LRC was key to the evolution of the Croke Park agreement so are the delegates surprised or disappointed that we are seeing such slow progress? The approved negotiation of the agreement seemed to happen at the speed of a slow bicycle race and there has been an even slower bicycle race to develop any related initiatives. This is at a time when the country is in an extraordinary level of crisis. I welcome the delegates' honesty in stating that if this agreement does not start to produce results soon it will be discredited. Do they have a view on what went wrong? Was the implementation not managed properly? Was it the case that Departments never came to the table with a serious restructuring and reform agenda that representatives could respond to within the terms of the agreement? What went wrong that this seems to be such a painfully slow process at a time when, God knows, the need for it is extraordinary?

My second question is in the context of employment law. Increasingly I hear from people on employment regulation orders, EROs, or statutorily set wages in situations where downward pressure is coming on wages and the continuing legitimacy of that process seems to be coming into question, certainly from the employer side. What are we to make of that? On the face of it, it seems very strange that decisions can become statutory where there does not seem to be a system of review and there is no inability to pay clause. Is this an anomaly for a voluntary industrial relations code, one which has been characteristic of our system and has been highly valued by all sides? Surely there should be a legislative change. It is being challenged in the courts but I am not familiar enough with it to know its progress.

In old God's time, there was a frequent user problem in the Labour Relations Commission and many of its resources went to the same clients. I suggest that in its annual report the LRC should present its material in different programmes so that we might see the spending for the different programmes. It is hard to make out where the money is going. Is that still a problem with persistent offenders who simply do not get their act together or respect basic procedures that could reduce the necessity for LRC services to be applied?

Mr. Mulvey made the point about employment law being very complex, which I certainly acknowledge. I find it hard to understand. He also raised the point to the effect that people can shop around between different agencies. Perhaps this is very Machiavellian, but does that not argue that we should consolidate the agencies involved? We have the Equality Tribunal, the Employment Appeals Tribunal, the Labour Court, the Labour Relations Commission and so on adjudicating or conciliating. Are there economies to be achieved by consolidating that process even institutionally, so that there may be some savings in administration and a coherent approach to the same clients without this shopping around between dispute agencies?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

I am conscious that the Croke Park agreement is now under the aegis of the implementation body, and I do not wish to cut across its work. I am on record as having said in public at one or two forums that I was conscious and worried about the scenic route being taken in regard to the implementation of the Croke Park agreement. I stand by what I said then and now to the effect that this needs to get traction and results. They need to be tangible results.

As to what may have happened between April and June when the unions accepted, and between June and where we are now, I suppose I would have felt that some more alacrity could have been shown in the implementation of the agreement. I am conscious, as well, that a very detailed budgetary process is going on, and no matter what is produced now, it will be significantly different from what will be produced in December or January in the light of the decisions that have been indicated by the Government. There will be a new ball game in terms of Croke Park in December and January and all the agencies that will be covered by the Croke Park agreement - education, health, quangos, the Civil Service, local authorities and so on - will address and have to deal with significant levels of potential expenditure reduction that will also then have significant work practice and deployment implications.

Already, I have seen that there has been a major proposal in the context of the health services. They have been given a very short timeframe. They are still in with us, so I do not want to pre-empt what will come from that, but it is very clear that this will move forward very rapidly. I do not believe there is a problem about the numbers they are looking for. It is a question of what is going to manage the rest of it, after they have left. That will potentially be the same situation in a number of Government services. We have to look at the positive side. Within six months of it being ratified by the unions through their democratic process we are now beginning to see a certain degree of movement and traction and I believe very solidly that in the next two or three months significant changes will be emerging for those covered by the Croke Park agreement.

I should like to put a positive spin on that. It is a four-year agreement. This is the first stage of it, and people are adjusting to its implications. There is much value in this agreement. If it is driven as we would have done in major private sector reorganisations, it should deliver significant savings and potentially, quality of service. We have to remain optimistic. At least it is one agreement that exists in the country with a uniformity of purpose. The alternative is: one would never have got what we have in the HSE at the moment in terms of a voluntary severance early retirement scheme if we had no agreement. There would have been open warfare over it. At least people are engaged around it and see the necessity or efficacy for it, and are more consciously prepared as regards how the change of service will be managed after the 6,000 have left. That will be a template for a considerable amount of change in other State services, where there appears to be a view to the affect that there are numbers surplus to requirement or capacity.

On the issue of the current legal arrangements around EROs as regards wage and other questions, these are areas not within the remit of the commission, and are largely under the remit of the Labour Court. However, the Labour Court, in fairness, has taken cognisance of the change that has emanated in the economy in its most recent decision regarding the construction industry to reduce rates by 7.5%, which some of the construction and electrical craft unions are having difficulty in accepting at the moment. However, there is an indication there that some adjustments must take place.

The LRC over the years has reviewed the JLCs and JICs. They go in and out of the courts at regular intervals and do not seem to come to any fruition. Perhaps it is just as well that we do not have a handed down judgment. However, many unions are voting with their feet in regard to this. People are looking at basic wages, premium pay and weekend payments. Employers and unions in individual circumstances are taking cognisance of this. Whether we need the construct of these legal arrangements in the future is under timely discussion at the moment.

Are those constructs outside the law at the moment in defiance of the law?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

If there is a complaint against them, obviously the law has to take precedence. However, I am not aware from an LRC perspective whether complaints are coming through on these areas, although I cannot speak for the Labour Court, which would have more information in this regard. However, I have not seen the Labour Court issue any statement on this either in its annual report or since.

On the frequent users, or the frequent abusers of the system, as we used to call them, there is much greater reality nowadays in respect of this. The biggest abusers of this in the past were some semi-State companies. We believe the agreements we are doing with aviation, transport, energy and the public providers of services that have a monopoly arrangement in energy and elsewhere are being done very quickly now. There is a certain economic reality at the core. Most of them are in a trading competitive environment. Even where we have An Bord Gáis and the ESB, they are in competition with one another, and then with Airtricity and other markets. The same happened in An Post and in the telecommunications area. Therefore there is far less lead time in terms of negotiations. Our mission statement in effect is, normally, "Get them in, get them settled, get them out", so that the requirement is met. There are no really long-term negotiations now in many areas. Having said that, one company has come to mind that seems to take a good deal of time, but it is addressing that problem as well.

On the consolidation of agencies, streamlining of the legislation is taking greater priority at the moment. That may in the short to medium term lead to a consolidation of agencies. If we could bring the agencies together in one location, that would be a big start. If we could get everybody sharing a common secretariat, reception and information platform along with common IT, then there are major synergies to be achieved in terms of cost, efficiency and manpower. That might be a good initial first step. Out of that certainly those synergies might lead to agency consolidation. The last thing I want to say is that we would go for it. I am sure other agencies would say the consolidation process should start with the LRC. A great deal, in terms of reality checks, is taking place. On dispute shopping, people have legitimate rights and entitlements under a plethora of legislation here. It would be inappropriate for me to suggest anything other than appropriate use of the machinery. One gets the impression from some cases, recent and current, that some people are unable to take "No" for an answer. They have a legitimate investigation of their case undertaken and somehow believe they might get a better, more favourable or different hearing somewhere else under different legislation. That is what I mean by dispute shopping in that sense. They want a "Yes" answer when unfortunately the answer is "No" or is a variation of "Yes" and "No" but is not to their satisfaction.

On cost, the cost of a rights commissioner hearing, of which there could be a multiple, works out at approximately €520 per case per annum, which in our opinion is exceptionally good value for money in the context of the overall cost that could be incurred by people if our service was not in place. Our chairperson deals with employment dispute resolution issues in Europe, which cases are dealt with by the civil courts. As she said earlier, our system provides exceptional value for money and is not something we would wish to lose.

Does the Labour Relations Commission have a programme budget?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

Yes. I take Deputy Bruton's point that it is important for us to list the cost of our conciliation service, rights commissioner service and our overall administrative costs. We will take the Deputy's point on board. To come back to the conciliation service, two or three down days in aviation, transport, a major multinational or major public service would cost more to the Exchequer than would the total cost of provision of the conciliation service. In that sense, our service is excellent value for money in terms of savings to the Exchequer and the advantage to the economy.

I, too, welcome the delegation from the Labour Relations Commission and acknowledge its tremendous contribution in terms of bringing about industrial peace. The commission will celebrate 20 years in existence in a few weeks. I am sure things were different before its establishment and as such, we may have taken much of that peace for granted. I acknowledge the commission's contribution and role in bringing about that peace.

My first question is directed to the chairperson who referred to a recent meeting she had with the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, and his senior officials. Ms O'Donoghue stated that at that meeting she outlined the commission's work programme and the resources necessary to fulfil its task. Can I take it the commission believes it does not have sufficient resources to fulfil its duties and has it sought additional resources?

In listing the activities the commission undertakes, the chief executive, omitted to mention the GAA. We are all familiar with the role the commission has been on occasion asked to play in this regard. I have two questions for the delegation, one of which is quite specific and relates to restaurants from which we constantly receive queries in respect of Sunday opening and the additional pay required in this regard in certain parts of the country. Perhaps the delegation will comment on the extent of this problem and say if it believes it is an issue we should take a fresh look at.

On the Croke Park agreement, the delegation appears to express a criticism of the slow rate at which it is being implemented, although the commission has acknowledged in recent weeks that it has been expedited somewhat. Is it the commission's view that the Croke Park agreement is something we could and should build upon rather than scrap? This matter has received much comment in recent times. Many people believe the agreement is dead in the water. We are all agreed that the economic situation has worsened considerably in the past six or 12 months. Does the commission see a future for the Croke Park agreement?

Ms Breege O’Donoghue

It is true that we had a good meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, recently. We went to see him as a matter of urgency to address our shortcomings in staff, which we believe could pose a reputational threat to the commission. We told the Minister of State that this was unsustainable and that we were seeking a replacement for seven people, two new posts for corporate services and that in all we required a certain level of competence and capability. We also required, as a short term measure, some temporary clerical assistances. We talked about possible outsourcing, internships and secondment of staff. We also asked about former employees returning from retirement and stated that, owing to the complexity in terms of the legislation, we believed a legal adviser on site would be of assistance to us. We told the Minister of State that we believed the rights commissioner was almost in crisis, facing as it did monumental and unprecedented demand for service. Mr. Mulvey has already outlined the position in this regard to the committee. We also informed the Minister of State that we had reduced resources within which to deal with same and were there to highlight our concerns at the highest level.

Since that meeting, which took place earlier this year, there have been a number of discussions with the executive and the Minister of State's Department. We have had some response to the issues raised.

When did that meeting take place?

Ms Breege O’Donoghue

It was held on 21 July. There has been considerable discussion between both parties and some resources have been made available to us. It is hoped that further resources will be made available by the end of this year. All in all, I am sure the chief executive and board colleagues will agree we received a positive response.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

In fairness to the Minister of State and the Department, we are beginning to see movement on some issues. This, too, is what the Croke Park agreement is about, namely, redeployment of staff.

On the restaurants issue, it must be remembered that many of the EROs are specific to particular employment. There is a long history in this regard. Taking restaurants as an example, I do not believe the issue that arises is solely related to labour costs. It is about pricing, quality and the service charge applied and so on. Before we go down the route of examining what minimum wage applies we must consider the competitiveness issues involved. It is a question of the totality of the requirements of business. Energy in this country is expensive. Is that a bigger or smaller problem than the labour cost of €8.65 or whatever it may be? I am not being unsympathetic to the plight of those involved but other issues arise including what shift arrangements are in place, the requirement to open on a Saturday, Sunday, five days a week or not on a Monday and the arrangements that can be made in this regard. There is scope for discussion and negotiation on these issues.

The Croke Park agreement has its critics and detractors. I have had legitimate questions from a considerable number of people here and elsewhere in relation to the Croke Park agreement. I have heard a great deal of comment from people who no matter what one did would criticise what is agreed and achieved. These people appear to have a perpetual view about the country and what is achieved and done here. I wish some of them would practise what they preach. If one went today to the Government of France, Greece, Portugal or Spain and said one could secure a public service agreement one would be welcomed with open arms because they do not have that type of stability required in terms of the amount of change to be inflicted on their public services. In this day and age in which we are seeking consensus around the economy and how we get out of the economic crisis, let us accept the Croke Park agreement for what it is and in terms of its potential. There will be a review in late spring or mid-year next year and that will be one of the first tests of this agreement. I ask people to hold back until they see what emerges from that review because in fairness to public service managers and in terms of trade union officers, we are talking about people. We are asking people to change from a position of constant economic growth in the past 20 years to a collapse in their standards of living, no matter what we might think about it. That is true in the private sector and for every citizen here in most walks of life. They have to deal with that as well.

I would look upon the Croke Park agreement as a positive economic indicator in that it can address its difficulties by consensus. My colleagues in Acas, in the United Kingdom, have put a proposition to their Government about something similar on the basis of having come to this country and looked at the Croke Park agreement. They are trying to convince their Government that they might need a negotiated public sector settlement rather than a constant series of disputes. We should look at the benefits and positives and hold the judgment until we get the first six or 12 month review on it.

On the other issues, I am lost-----

I think Mr. Mulvey was going to comment on Cork GAA.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

Yes, the Cork GAA. I was in Croke Park in September and the team I negotiated to return to the playing fields won an all-Ireland. The new manager I suggested be appointed was a successful manager and I still have not got an all-Ireland medal.

That is the real Croke Park agreement.

On the Croke Park agreement, I note Mr. Mulvey's optimism about it and his sense that it can deliver value and savings and improve service but regarding the slow progress to date, there is a tendency in the national media to say there has been slow progress and it is the unions who are to blame for lack of activity or progress or resistance to change. It seems that for anything to come about it has to be as a result of the management bringing forward some initiatives. My sense of it is that it is wrong to blame the unions at this stage. Obviously, when we begin to engage we can test it, and I look forward to a successful outcome, but I share Mr. Mulvey's optimism about it and hope it can deliver.

On the matter of the Payment of Wages Act, an individual's right to be heard and Mr. Mulvey's desire to bring about some system whereby a class action could be taken recognising the right of individuals to be heard, to which there would be resistance from employers, do the employers have a right to insist that it goes on an individual basis? If there was a group of workers who wanted to go along those lines it would be unfair of the employers to resist that. Is there a right in both directions? I am interested to hear the clarification on that.

In terms of somebody seeking a hearing by a rights commissioner, how long must they wait to be heard? In what direction is that going? Presumably, it is taking longer and is that reasonable?

In terms of developments in the quasi-judicial area, Mr. Mulvey said there is an increase in the number of people wanting to be legally represented. Why does he believe that is happening now? Is it something to do with affected people being from a non-unionised workforce and, therefore, it is natural that this would happen? I am interested to hear Mr. Mulvey's comments on that.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

Regarding the Payment of Wages Act, section 6 clearly lays down that an employee may present a complaint to a rights commissioner that his employer has contravened section 5 - this is over the payment of wages or related payments and they are described, including bonus and other payments and commissions.

Our view is that currently it is impossible for us to depart from that. What we are trying to do, and we are still in discussion with employers, is to advocate reasonableness and that we start this because there is a cost benefit for them in it. Most employers, particularly in the financial services sector but not exclusively, are represented by legal representation at some high powered level, including senior counsel. Do they want these cases in the Labour Relations Commission or wherever for the next 12 months on a daily fee basis where we get into another tribunal cost level? However, they are paying it this time. What we are saying is that there is a cost, that there is an advantage in them getting this off their books because it continues to be a risk on their books in terms of potential outlay and potential pay-out or compensation payments. We are still working on that. In most of the cases we are talking about here there is union representation involved, and collective bargaining has been in place. We are just trying to say can we get them back to an agreement as to how they will be heard. I still hope that can be done with some kind of verbal persuasion.

On the issue around delays, up to about two years ago we had a three months delay. It has now drifted to nine months. That does not give a complete picture because we are hearing some cases that arrived in June for the simple reason that the location of the hearing may be Cork, Limerick, Sligo, Donegal, Dublin. Logistically it will fit into the situation. Also, we schedule rights commissioners for at least three hearings a day. That may fall to two because people withdraw, settle, do not turn up or seek adjournments. We facilitate that wherever we can because people, for good reasons, are not available on the day.

In the context of representation, we have detected in the past two years a high proportion of individuals coming to us under the rights commissioner service who are not represented by trade unions. A significant proportion of those are workers who are citizens of other EU or non-EU states. In that sense it presents a different difficulty in that, on occasion, translation has to be provided. What happens in some of these cases, but not exclusively, is they will fill in the on-line referral or the form under five or six different Acts and we have to hear all of the complaints under those Acts. There are particular administrative difficulties relating to that. We also believe that there is a number of representative bodies emerging in the field for citizens from other European states who are representing their own people who are working in Ireland or are now being laid off or whatever. That is a particular feature of the cosmopolitan nature of our workforce and there are cultural and other issues surrounding that.

In terms of whether there is a way of doing it more effectively and reducing that delay, we hope, if we get the multiples out of the way, that we could return within 12 months, not with more rights commissioners but with some administrative support, to get it down to at least a target of six if not three months. We are trying to assess when this will peak. Some 12 months ago we thought it might have peaked but we have the double dip recession almost in place.

The other issue is whether, out of all of these new schemes and all the people leaving in other employments, we will have more people coming in because they were not happy with this, that or the other or they believe they are still owed money from their previous employments. We cannot rule out that possibility. The real change will take place in access to employment rights. If we have some streamlining of the procedures and, to a large degree, a common IT platform that allows an on-line referral to us.

At the moment, there are 32 relevant Acts. If we put up a form on our IT system with 32 boxes to be ticked, all 32 boxes will be ticked, believe me. People just tick them. The minute they do that, a complaint is automatically generated and must be investigated, because we are not allowed, under the legislation, to lift the phone and ask people if they really want to put in a claim in some area. A large educational and information system is required, and much administration.

Is there potential for a type of smart IT that might direct people to the correct legislation?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

Very much so. However, I am worried about the shadow of PPARS. I do not want to get into that situation until I am absolutely sure it will solve the problem. As members know, IT systems are always designed on the basis of what one asked for, not on the basis of what one wanted, so we need to be careful. We are discussing with our own Department, and it is discussing with the other agencies, whether there is a single way of doing this based on all the modern technology. It would need to be user-friendly and cost effective. We are going through a business process review at the moment for the Employment Appeals Tribunal to see whether this can actually be done. If we did get that and we ended up with a paperless office as far as possible, it would considerably ease our administrative burden.

I welcome the delegates. In Mr. Mulvey's dealings, how does he see the industrial relations landscape over the next year in the public and private sector? Where will the pressure points be on various issues?

I was looking at the annual report of the Labour Relations Commission which states that it was a key player in organising and achieving the new Croke Park agreement. It states: "The Executive remain available for continued involvement in assisting the parties involved in all sectors of the public service in achieving the targets and aspirations set out in the terms of that Agreement." It is now four or five months since the agreement was ratified by the unions. Has the commission had any involvement with the parties to the agreement? We are seeing on the ground that where savings are required across public sector bodies, crude cuts are taking place. Some employees seem to feel that if the Croke Park agreement was in place, savings could be found in a more proactive way. What the annual report states, if I understand it correctly, is that the Croke Park agreement will react to budget cuts from January onwards, as distinct from being a proactive, reforming agreement in its own right. I ask Mr. Mulvey to address this. Clearly, the commission was involved with the agreement from the very start. It appeared in various incarnations and was eventually ratified in its current form last July.

The annual report referred to the likelihood of the Rights Commissioner Service receiving more than 16,000 referrals in 2010. It states: "The Service is not equipped to cope with this level of referral." Mr. Mulvey referred to class actions in this presentation. What simple measures could be introduced in terms of legislation or amendments to legislation that could deal with this? We are in the midst of what is probably the worst financial crisis the State has ever seen, and I include in this the foundation of the State itself. I ask Mr. Mulvey to give a picture of the industrial relations landscape, in terms of his experience and in view of the Croke Park agreement, for the next 12 months. My understanding of the agreement was that it was to be a positive, reforming agreement under which change could be implemented. People working in the public service provide a great service, but everyone agrees there is a need for positive change. I worry that under the Croke Park agreement, organisations may simply react to budget cuts rather than bringing about positive changes such as efficiencies and redeployment. It should not be a crude instrument for making savings. I ask Mr. Mulvey to address these broad questions, which will be extremely important over the next 12 months.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

Over the next months, as we see in our strategies, the priority is to get ourselves through the recession. I will dwell on the private sector for the moment. We are dealing with private sector companies the length and breadth of the country which are attempting to stay in business. Some are expanding their businesses, some are consolidating, and some are outsourcing. Our objective is to obtain agreement and to get both sides to buy into it. We also try, as far as possible, to bed down the issues involved over the following two or three years so that companies can consolidate and potentially grow. Much of this is addressing issues of cost competitiveness, plus payments, in many cases, rather than basic pay, and potential outsourcing in areas such as warehousing, transport, catering, security or waste management. That is the general picture.

It is not all bad news. Companies have consolidated. We were involved with one in the area of food preserves, that recently returned a profit of €1.6 million. If we had not had the intervention we had 12 months ago, 300 people would have been unemployed. There are other such stories. I am not at liberty to name companies because of the requirement to keep their commercial business private, but such things are happening. It is not a bad picture. In the next 12 months, the pressure point for many companies will be consolidation of their businesses and attempts to stay competitive. As members know, the relative values of the euro, the dollar and sterling is a major issue in that context.

To a large extent, the issues that companies need to address are not labour market issues. They are issues of transport, energy, or the cost of delivering products to retailers, wherever they may be. Board members are familiar with these.

Does Mr. Mulvey believe that we will see more large job losses in the private sector?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

I do not. I see that some haemorrhaging of jobs is continuing, and one of the areas about which I am still concerned is the continuing elimination of the construction sector. I have personal views on that. Now is the time to invest capital, if we can, to ensure that the logistical infrastructure and skills we have built up over the past five years are retained. We have built some of the major infrastructural projects in Europe. Leaving aside the argument of what they cost, we have been able to build roads, tunnels, stadiums and state-of-the-art buildings. We have been able to achieve extraordinary skill development and we are beginning to lose those skills. If we can develop a capital building programme that will deliver infrastructure and commercial value in the long term, we should do so. Many buildings have been built over the past five years, and if we can refurbish or reconfigure some of them, we will not have to build another school, hospital or third level institution.

Is Mr. Mulvey worried about a severe cut in the capital budget?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

We have to generate employment that is not a subsidy. We need to take skilled people who were in the construction industry off the dole. The industry did not materialise out of nowhere.

Deputy O'Donnell asked about what may happen in the public service over the next 12 months. The problem with the plans produced recently is that they are only a broad outline. The devil is in the detail, but many are holding back public service management until they see the shape of the budget and what it might contain for their Department, agencies and services. Then the devil will be in the detail, so that will happen. The public service agreement allows that to be done, first, by engagement and negotiation and second, by arbitration which we never had before. It will be fast-track arbitration - a six-week process from outline to decision. We have never had that before with no suggestion of any form of industrial action, which is mammoth. In the public service agreement the silos are being eliminated. There is transferability involving the paymaster - the State - local authorities, quangos, the Civil Service, education or whatever it might be. There should be interchangeability and I believe it is management's duty to manage. That does not mean that everybody will universally agree with every deal. There will be outbreaks of hostility but at least they can be contained within a structure.

While I am not talking about the commission itself, we spent the entire summer through July and August dealing with the problems with the €90 million overrun on this year's budget in the HSE western region. It was not part of the Croke Park agreement. We were also dealing with some of the local authorities around the country, most prominently Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. Some residual issues, which do not come under the Croke Park agreement, are getting attention at the moment, but we are trying to get rid of them off the block so that it is clean and neat when it comes to the Croke Park agreement. There are some pre-Croke Park agreement issues that need to be addressed. That is where there was considerable engagement in the summer, but I believe there is a sense, particularly on the management side, that once this budget process is over real tangible changes are needed. I believe the union leadership at least is very conscious that if this is not seen to be delivered and without some tangible change in the delivery of services leading to savings, it is in a very difficult position.

The first review is in April.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

While it might start in April, more realistically it might be June before-----

Does Mr. Mulvey expect to see tangible results under the Croke Park agreement across the public sector in the first quarter of next year?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

Yes, and there will be one very serious one. Potentially there will be 6,000 fewer HSE employees on 1 January than there were on 1 November. The problem then becomes the management of the loss of those 6,000 people, which is an enormous number. If that is replicated proportionately in other public services it will require day-to-day managing by management initially and by unions co-operating with it. That is where we expect to be busy in terms of some of the fallout. We need to have a safety net and we are that safety net to ensure everything moves along. It is into the implementation body.

Has the Labour Relations Commission had many discussions on the Croke Park agreement since then?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

Many private conversations take place between the commission, the implementation body, the Labour Court, the unions and the Department of Finance. There is a fair bit of conversation going on at the moment.

I welcome the delegation and Mr. Mulvey in particular. The LRC is doing a wonderful job. Mr. Mulvey appeared on television and he even made an effort to solve the dispute in Cork hurling. I have good memories of Croke Park this year because Cork won its all-Ireland football final. I apologise for being late; I had to attend an important meeting of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food of which I am also a member.

One of the problems here is that the cost of production is 14% too high in terms of energy costs, labour costs and other costs. If we do not get that right we will not have a proper private sector food industry. We have tremendous agricultural resources but we have little added value, which is where the jobs are, and what we had we have lost owing to high costs. Some 10% of our milk goes into the production of infant formula but not in added-value terms. In powder milk, butter and cheddar cheese we are very short in added value. If we want to be successful and create jobs in rural areas we need to go down that route. If our costs are wrong, I do not know where we are going.

Mr. Mulvey made a good point in saying that we have 1.8 million people in the workforce today whereas we had 2.35 million two years ago. Am I right in saying Mr. Mulvey first attained his present position in 1988?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

It was in 1990.

I believe the late Mr. Charles Haughey was looking for some skilled person such as Mr. Mulvey who might survive so long. At the time we had only 800,000 people in the workforce and so have come a long way since then.

Are national pay agreements appropriate given that they can kill the competitive edge with everybody getting the same wage level irrespective of how competitive they are? We hear considerable talk about our economy and the enormous national debt we are envisaged to have. We hear about the European Stabilisation Fund and the IMF. As we are a very open economy dependent on trade particularly with Britain to which 40% of our products are exported, what effect would the involvement of the European Stabilisation Fund or the IMF running our affairs have on our people and what threat would it be to our society? The IMF has not done a good job in the many countries in South America in which it has been involved. Those in the IMF are bankers and can take savage decisions. I do not want to see it happening here. Where does Mr. Mulvey see us going if that crisis arises?

It is reported today that the United States wants more quantitative easing through printing more money. It is having an amazing effect particularly on the construction industry and we have seen the CRH share price rise considerably in the past day or two as a result because it is heavily involved in the United States of America. That company employs 100,000 people around the world. Perhaps Mr. Mulvey can give me some answers to those simple questions.

I do not think they are simple, in fairness to Mr. Mulvey. The Deputy gave a global economic view, but I am sure Mr. Mulvey will have some points to make.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Deputy O'Keeffe has a remarkable memory. It was the former Taoiseach, the late Mr. Charles Haughey, who appointed me to this post. It was interesting and curious. It was at the end of the negotiations in 1990 and he called me into his office to tell me he had a job for me. I told him I had a job already. There was a transfer of ownership at the time; we had the transfer of undertakings legislation, which thankfully protects me. Somehow I do not think the ASTI would want me back.

It is generally recognised that we lost cost competitiveness in 2004 or 2005 when the graph went in the wrong direction and we slipped out of the top ten. We were well up in the top ten and we have now slipped to 22 or 23. Another factor in cost competitiveness was that the euro currency became too strong with our major trading partners. We are adjusting rapidly. One must remember that we do not have a pay agreement in the private or public sector. There is an agreement in the public sector for pay restraint and a standstill effectively. In the private sector there is an understanding between IBEC and ICTU on the parameters. I would need to walk a long road to find a company running to us to offer pay increases at the moment and if they do they are very circumscribed and totally relate to cost competitiveness and productivity. Some are doing that but it is for significant changes in work practices.

I have long had a view on the food industry in this country, but I have a more political view on the Common Agricultural Policy. This country has great potential as a producer of food. I travel the length and breadth of this country and all I see are animals grazing on prime agricultural land. With technology we have great potential to develop a horticultural industry, a fruit industry, a dairy industry and a livestock industry beyond our present capacity. It is a political point but I am also a citizen of this country. In the review of the Common Agricultural Policy I hope that we will play to the natural strengths of this country and begin to produce the food we are capable of producing to the levels we are capable of producing it. I hope we reassert our priorities in that regard because it will be of tangible value. It is a bit like energy. As we have seen in recent days our capacity for natural energy is phenomenal. We are not exploiting it enough to replace energy based on fossil fuels. I have been involved in the past 20 years in a considerable number of co-operative society rationalisations. It is sad to see that in the case of cheese and food production factories.

In some cases it has involved destruction.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

Yes. I could outline some towns in this country that had a thriving food industry and now they are market towns.

Mallow and Mitchelstown for example.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

That is correct. I have been in both recently. The heart is gone out of them but they are thriving in other ways.

They are like Baghdad and Beirut.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

I will not go there. I will read George Bush's memoirs in the meantime. On the IMF and the ECB, it cannot happen, it should not happen and I hope it will not happen. We are resilient, proud, independent people. We have the capacity in the Parliament and people of this country to avoid that. All of us wish that will be avoided and we do not have to do that. We have the resilience, strength and capacity among ourselves to, first, recognise the problem and, second, to deal with it. That is a matter largely for the Oireachtas.

When the Labour Relations Commission makes a decision and gives results on conciliations, employers often do not honour them. I refer to workers rights, redundancies, wages and various other issues. There is a significant delay after a decision is made which is a major problem.

Politicians on the ground often come across people who have difficulties getting a P45. One might say that is not earth shattering but it is important to a person who has been laid off which is, in effect, being made redundant. If one does not have a P45 when one goes to the labour exchange there is no acceptance of one's position and the case is left hanging. The witnesses might find it strange but that problem is on the increase which is a worry.

I am interested in cases where there is not a dispute although the Labour Relations Commission's competence in that regard is extremely important. A number of people operate mediation centres and specialise in mediation areas. Has the commission given consideration to contract in such people? The commission is affected by the moratorium on recruitment in the public service. Is it possible to consider that option to expedite the resolution of outstanding disputes which have trebled in the past four years? The variety of disputes has also increased. The Labour Relations Commission is playing an important role in the economic life of the country. It is important to ensure that industrial disputes are not allowed to spiral out of control and lead to industrial action and ultimately lost employment and a loss of competitiveness. The commission's role is acutely important. The last thing we want is unnecessary confrontation between employers and employees. In that context the commission also has a role in ensuring fair play and that fair procedures are adhered to. The commission mainly hands down decisions that are put in the dustbin for the want of a better description.

Are the rules concerning parties to an industrial dispute in a workplace referred to the commission only when local procedures and efforts have been exhausted? Is it the case that people are too eager to go to the commission rather than using local resolution mechanisms? If that is the case, what steps is the commission taking to encourage better co-operation in terms of finding internal solutions in the workplace?

Is there any evidence to suggest that employers are taking advantage of the current economic downturn to introduce new procedures and conditions that are unacceptable to employees and that this sparks off a dispute that goes before the Labour Relations Commission? Does it have a bearing on the waiting times for cases being extended from four months up to ten months? Conversely, is there any evidence to suggest that employees are more reluctant than in the past to challenge what they consider infringements of their conditions and rights because of the lack of job security in the current market?

There seems to be an impetus especially in some media circles for a rush to judgment on the Croke Park agreement. Before it gets out of the traps it is already been painted as something that will bring the whole edifice down. Mr. Mulvey referred to significant changes and that more are to come. Some more changes will have to come in the context of what has been agreed. There is a significant rush to judgment on the part of certain media sources about the efficiency or effectiveness of the Croke Park agreement. The agreement should be given an opportunity to bed down. In the context of the first element of the review in approximately six months' time we will see what has been achieved. We all hope that the efficiency and effectiveness of the agreement will be evident at that stage and that it will be for the betterment of the country in the longer term.

Mr. Mulvey made a point that is worth repeating. Other countries would be eager to secure agreement of that nature on the public sector. That should not be overlooked in the context of what is happening now. The European Union and visitors to our shores in whatever guise or from whatever powerful sources they emanate should give due cognisance to the fact that, largely, we have had industrial peace in this country in recent years, that a significant effort has been made to continue it, and that workers in conjunction with employers are taking significant steps. We must acknowledge that. One of our problems is that we have a bad habit in this country of continuing to highlight anything that might appear to be negative and we forget to accentuate the positives. That is extremely important in the context. It is foolhardy to rush to judge something until we see what emerges after the first review period. The agreement was only made in June.

In the context of making decisions and handing down recommendations I am interested to know whether there is any follow-up to ensure adherence?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

On the enforcement side, once a rights commissioner's recommendation has been made in disputes of right, this can be appealed either to the Labour Court or the Employment Appeals Tribunal, as appropriate. Approximately 10% of decisions tend to be appealed. In most cases the outcome is to uphold the rights commissioner's recommendations. Although it might vary slightly in certain respects there is no fundamental change to them. NERA has the function of enforcement. I empathise with claimants who have succeeded because this can take almost six months to get to a level of enforcement in terms of the courts which, having waited for a hearing from the LRC, got some of the result they were hoping for and, recently, unfortunately in some cases, the employer does not exist any more but has gone into liquidation and they become a creditor, and a low-level creditor in the context of the situation. Enforcement is one of the issues we are addressing in the context of whether there is a fast track, a better way of moving from a decision that is not appealed to enforcement rather than having it delayed. I do see the need for this period of time in terms of an appeal.

As to whether people are exhausting the procedures, we would have seen in collective disputes that they are. In disputes of interest, people are applying to the LRC and other dispute resolution agencies. In a considerable number of cases where there are individuals involved, they are not represented; they are in non-sheltered employment for areas the EROs are to cover and others. Of course, the service is free. There is no cost unless one engages legal representation.

Our advisory service has been engaged with a considerable number of sectoral groups, community employment scheme people who have no experience of managing and are experiencing a downturn in their funding. We have been engaged with the Small Firms Association and ISME about sole employers who do not have a human resource on the best way to avoid coming into the commission in the first place. We have just completed a major national exercise through the advisory service with vocational education committees that had many part-time, temporary appointments, many of whom, when their services were being disengaged ended up with us. We have been working with them on how to better handle that arrangement. We have completed that exercise to the satisfaction of the Teachers Union of Ireland and the VEC authorities and that can be replicated.

There is an enormous increase in atypical employment, part time, temporary, three-day week, two-day week, and many people coming in and out of the workforce which creates its own problems under employment legislation and access to employment rights. There is an issue where people who have been engaged for a short period have a dispute with an employer or are laid off and then claim holiday pay or payment of wages. We insist on some evidence such as P45s and P60s and we have the same experience as the Chairman has addressed. Trying to get some of these documents is like trying to pull hens' teeth. That is the only evidence we have that they were employed. When we come to hearings we try to be reasonable and amenable. There is also the position where, under legislation, employers can object to going before the rights commissioner. Perhaps that is not the most fair situation but it is an issue that must be addressed with the social partners.

People have made enormous sacrifices in their employment during the past 12 to 18 months and have seen their pay eroded. In a considerable number of cases it is to some degree force majeure because there is a reality but it has been negotiated through the conciliation service in order to preserve employment and to ensure a continuation of employment and their company. We should not underestimate the real sacrifices that have been made throughout the economy.

In regard to my good friends in the media who are here today on the industrial relations side we always draw a line under them in so far as they are experts. They understand the situation, the name of the game, and their reporting, compared with other jurisdictions, is at the height of professional reporting. I deal with colleagues in ACAS in the United Kingdom who despair of the reporting they get on industrial disputes. I pay that particular comment - I may not always agree with what they say but certainly there is a dedicated professionalism about their reporting.

Unfortunately, in the media, there are what I call the commentariat who have no relationship with the world of work in which we involve ourselves in the concept of engagement about industrial relations disputes and have a simple view. A throw-away line in an economic or political commentary such as "The Croke Park agreement is nonsense", is fine. Sometime I am going to point out the circle turns around and maybe they would be looking to the LRC some day. It may not be their problem today but it might be some day and they would be looking to the LRC to resolve it.

I agree we have an infinite psychological tendency in Ireland, which is deep rooted in us, to say the worst things about ourselves. What we need around the economic commentariat is not glib references to the Croke Park agreement. Nobody challenges a reasonable and fair analysis on the one hand or on the other, but these are throw-away one-way lines to the effect that the Government should abandon the Croke Park agreement. That is great. The next dispute may be in the national newspapers, they do not get produced. We might have a BBC strike like there was last week in RTE. Let us have a fair and reasonable analysis. One does not want a social partnership or an employer individual union agreement, one wants a Croke Park agreement. Let us have nurses on strike, teachers on strike, no aeroplanes taking off, no trains running, no buses running. The consequences of glib comment are enormous.

Is Tony Kerr making some recommendation in regard to codification of the legislation?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

To address inconsistencies and anomalies we undertook this work and we have passed it on to our own department which is actively moving on it. In fairness to the Oireachtas over the past 20 years it has been under pressure on a wide range of fronts, domestically and from Europe, to codify employment legislation and inconsistencies and anomalies slip through the system. For example, there could be a three months, six months time reference, a requirement for an investigation, a penalty, a discretion-----

Clearly everyone recognises the need for long-term legislative change. We were told there would be a merger of the National Consumer Agency and the Competition Authority. It appeared to be a good idea but two years on we have not even seen the heads of legislation. The Government makes decisions but nothing seems to happen. In Mr. Mulvey's experience, what is the problem?

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

I assume the problem is at parliamentary draftsman level.

We could get the Chairman to write the law for us in 20 minutes.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

I could help. I have a fair number of ideas. Having had to face it for the past 20 years, I know half of it is obsolete, the other half is unintelligible. I do not know any ordinary person who could understand the exigencies of labour law at present. When an employer employs somebody in this country, on the first day of operation, he or she would need to be an employment law expert. We do not need the complexity of the legislation. Every nuance appears to be put in legislation. Think the unthinkable and it will happen.

We seem to need a committee that would sit for 14 years to decide what changes will be made.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

I believe that if given authority to consolidate a piece of legislation which we would like to see in three months' time, one can appoint A, B and C to do it. We have enough experts in labour law. If given the task, they would produce it within three to six months. That is a policy issue and, as soon as I go out from here, I will be told it is.

We know it is a policy issue and we agree with Mr. Mulvey.

I support Deputy Bruton. The merger of those two agencies has been long-fingered for too long. That was part of the an bord snip nua report. There is no room for the two bodies.

Mr. Mulvey mentioned the construction industry and I agree with him that skills will be lost. We are where we are because of the construction industry and let us be straight about it. It has put this economy into a real whirl resulting in banking and other services going astray. We were building 90,000 houses when we should have built 44,000 or 45,000 houses. It is hard to sell that message to Joe Citizen on the street because I do not think we can continue. We would not be in this crisis were it not for the construction industry. We definitely have a financial crisis and there would be cutbacks because other countries throughout the world are in financial crisis. Financial crises come in cycles especially for commercial nations. I cannot disagree with Mr. Mulvey's suggestions but I would like to see how we can accommodate those skills that could be lost from the construction industry. Look at the massive infrastructure we built in the country in the past five to seven years. When I travel down the east coast to Waterford, I marvel at what has been achieved. What I see as problems are a way to get people back to work and using those skills in construction.

Mr. Kieran Mulvey

The problem identified by Deputy Edward O'Keeffe could be addressed by targeted localised projects. We have a growing population and we still need to build schools. If we are not building more hospitals, we will have to build primary care facilities. We have a population that is getting older and they need primary care and accommodation. We have buildings that need targeted refitting. People such as electricians, builders, engineers and so on can be taken off the dole and employed on local targeted refitting at reasonably competitive pay. We are then putting people back to work and 40% of every euro they earn is going back to the State. They are not being paid unemployment benefit and they have the dignity of work in their area. They are not going abroad and hope is being fostered. I am not talking about projects such as metro north, but having built wonderful infrastructure the length and breadth of the country, we can now target projects such as hospice, aged care, sports or commercial facilities. We should continue that targeted programme and avail of a recession price for the job.

I will leave the economic debate to my colleague, Deputy Bruton. Money is the problem. Our tax take is such that we would have to borrow to do the projects suggested by Mr. Mulvey. I agree with him but I cannot see how it can be accommodated.

The Deputy has a name of being a maverick, so I am sure he would be able to find ways to do things.

One would want to be more than a maverick.

Mr. Mulvey and his colleagues have been more than patient and have been frank and forthright in answering questions. I know they strayed a little outside the brief, but Mr. Mulvey has a great deal of experience and has worked in various other areas.

I thank Ms Breege O'Donoghue, Mr. Kieran Mulvey, Mr. Eddie Nolan and Mr. John Hennessy for coming before us to assist the committee. It has been a very useful exchange. We appreciate that they have been extremely helpful. We appreciate their frankness. It is time to put all cards on the table and let the chips fall.

As a barrister, and Mr. Mulvey referred to this point, I certainly think the complexity of labour law is taking up at least half a day per week in small firms. Small businesses need to devote at least half a day a week to ensure things are right. We should simplify, codify and streamline labour law and recast it in layman's language. Language that is archaic and arcane does not help. The language of property registration law, dating from the 1700s which was phenomenally archaic and complex has been simplified. Having done that, we should tackle employment law which dates from the mid-1970s. I have an interest in getting this problem solved. I think somebody like Mr. Tony Kerr who is extremely competent in this area, would do an excellent job. I hope when the delegates meet the Minister again, they suggest that somebody such as Mr. Kerr should work on the legislation and in six months' time we would have a solution so that a person in business who does not have third level education can look at the law and put in place a complaints procedure, a grievance procedure and resolution mechanism and ensure that people are paid properly. We should streamline the process. A great deal of money is being lost because of labour law. I agree that labour legislation is becoming fertile territory for legal eagles and it is time to bring it back to the real world. I thank the delegates for the role they have played in the Labour Relations Commission during the past number of years and hope they are not as busy in the future in that context.

Ms Breege O’Donoghue

May we thank the Chairman for his welcome. He listened to us and asked questions. The board and executive is well aware that we live in a constant economic, social and political flux but for our part we are focused on delivering quality service, notwithstanding the constraints we talked about, good corporate governance and ensuring we have most value for money for the taxpayer.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.20 p.m. until 2 p.m on Tuesday, 23 November 2010.
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