Joint Committee on Environment and Climate Action díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 31 May 2022

Challenge and Opportunity for Local Authorities in Climate Action: Discussion

Chairman

Apologies have been received from Deputies Bruton and Whitmore. This meeting is to discuss the challenge and opportunity of climate action at local level, specifically regarding the role of local authorities. I welcome Mr. Paddy Mahon, chair, climate action, transport and networks committee of the County and City Management Association, CCMA, and chief executive of Longford County Council; Mr. Peter Burke, Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, and the climate action, transport and networks committee of the CCMA; and Ms Eleanor Ryan, LGMA, who is joining us online. From the climate adaptation regional offices, CAROs, I welcome Mr. Joe Boland, regional lead, eastern and midlands CARO; Mr. David Dodd, Dublin metropolitan CARO; Mr. Liam Bergin, regional lead, Dublin metropolitan CARO; Mr. Kevin Motherway, Atlantic seaboard south CARO, who is joining us online; Mr. Louis Duffy, regional lead, Atlantic seaboard south CARO, also joining us online; and Mr. Martin Keating, Atlantic seaboard north CARO.

From the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, we have Councillor Nicholas Crossan, president, and Mr. Tommy Moylan, director, both of whom join us online. All of the witnesses are very welcome.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. For the witnesses who attend remotely from outside the Leinster House campus, or join us online, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as does a witness who is physically present on the campus.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members they may participate in this meeting only if they are physically located on the Leinster House complex. In this regard, I ask any member joining us online to confirm, prior to making his or her contribution, that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I invite Mr. Mahon to make his opening statement.

Mr. Paddy Mahon

On behalf of the County and City Management Association and the climate action regional offices, CAROs, I welcome the opportunity to meet the Chairperson and members of the joint committee to discuss the challenges and opportunities of climate action for local authorities. We believe the local authorities are well placed to address the climate challenge by embedding climate action in our operations and leading climate action across our areas and communities. With 31 local authorities across Ireland working towards this ambition, there is an opportunity to achieve significant impact locally.

In recent years, the CCMA has overseen a number of important developments. The CAROs were established in 2018 and are funded by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications for a five-year period. The CAROs were set up to do drive climate action across the sector, assist in the alignment of policy and mainstream climate action across all local authority functions.

In 2019, local authorities prepared their climate change adaptation plans and signed the climate action charter. A comprehensive local authority climate action training programme was also developed. In 2020, the sector achieved its energy performance target of 33%. We also developed a sectoral strategy entitled, Delivering Effective Climate Action, and made a subsequent funding submission.

In 2021, significant activity included the creation of guidance on the electrification of the local authority fleet and electric vehicle, EV, charging; a national conference on economic opportunities and climate action; the creation of active travel teams throughout the sector with funding from the National Transport Authority; the identification of decarbonising zones; a public lighting retrofit programme was put in place; work commenced on the local authority housing retrofit programme; and climate action training continued. This year, the focus has been on the preparation of guidance on climate adaptation for regional and local roads, engagement with local authorities on the areas of rising sea levels and coastal erosion, and preparing guidance for the forthcoming climate action plans, as we are required to do.

The challenges we face are framed by the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Act 2021 and the Climate Action Plan 2021, specifically in the areas of improving energy efficiency to 50% by 2030, delivering a 51% reduction in carbon emissions, and each local authority devising its own climate action plan.

Local authorities are also engaged in a number of areas. In adaptation, which is a pivotal area of local area activity, coastal erosion is particularly challenging at the moment. The CAROs and local authority sector are represented on the national steering group on this area, which is led by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. To date, training has been made available to over 16,000 employees and all of our elected members.

In the area of community and enterprise activity, local authorities are well positioned in communities with established engagement in climate action to take on a broader role, influencing and facilitating others to meet their targets. For example, we are a lead partner in the GAA green clubs programme. The economic opportunities arising from the climate action project work with local enterprise offices, LEOs, and the local community development committees, LCDCs, to promote climate action through the lens of opportunity.

A just transition is an essential element of climate action. Local authorities already provide a range of socioeconomic and community development services and we are well placed to enable and support a just transition.

Our ambition is clear. It was pointed out in the charter that we signed in 2019 and in the strategy that local government developed in 2020, Delivering Effective Climate Action 2030. It is a comprehensive commitment across all 31 local authorities. Our vision is to leverage the capability, reach and resources of local authorities to lead and co-ordinate climate action across Ireland.

It needs resources. In its annual report in 2021, the Climate Change Advisory Council, CCAC, noted the progress of the sector but it also pointed out the resource and capacity constraints facing local authorities.

Climate action, as the committee members all will be aware, is a broad area requiring diverse skill sets. It also needs boots on the ground. From communication with the sector and feedback to Departments at the recent CCMA plenary, it was clear that there is insufficient staff capacity at local authority and CARO levels. The CAROs, were originally established on a climate adaptation footing but their work programme has expanded rapidly and moved very much into the climate mitigation and energy area, with insufficient staff at regional level to assist local authorities. The sector is looking for clarity from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications as to what happens when the five-year temporary funding of the CARO ceases in March 2023.

We are also looking to that Department for support for staff resources across the local authority sector. Those resources were identified in the strategy that I mentioned earlier, Delivering Effective Climate Action 2030. We believe each local authority needs: a climate action co-ordinator; an energy and emissions manager; a climate action officer; a green solutions specialist; and a community climate action officer.

We have been engaging over the last year, particularly with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, with a view to securing the necessary funding towards the cost of putting these resources in place in advance of the preparation of the climate action plans that we will be required to do before the end of this year. The CCMA is clear that these additional resources need to be in place in 2022 to ensure that local authorities realise our ambition to deliver transformative change and measurable climate action across our cities and counties and within our own organisations through leadership, example and mobilising action at a local level.

I thank the Chair for the opportunity to speak. My colleagues and I would be delighted to try to answer the committee's questions.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Mahon for his opening statement. It is comprehensive, which we appreciate. I call Councillor Crossan, who is delivering the opening statement on behalf of the AILG.

Mr. Nicholas Crossan

As AILG president, I thank the Chair and the committee members for affording us the opportunity to meet the committee today and contribute to the committee's work and discuss both the challenges and opportunities for local authorities in climate action. The AILG's director, Mr. Tommy Moylan, is with me today.

Climate change is the defining issue of our time with all sections of society aware that we must deal with the reality of climate change. All sectors of society and the economy need to act now to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and thus avoid the worst impacts of climate change. The local government sector is no different. Local authorities have long been at the front line in dealing with extreme weather events and as these extremes become more frequent, local authorities must ensure local adaptation to a changed climate. The all-of-government climate action plan is a measure of how involved councils will be in addressing the climate challenge. The current programme for Government commits to an average 7% per annum reduction in overall greenhouse gas emissions from 2021 to 2030, a 51% reduction over a decade and achieving net zero emissions by 2050. The 2050 target has been set in law by the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Act 2021 with every sector contributing to meeting this target.

In order to ensure that the local government sector plays its part in achieving the 51% reduction, it is essential that we build the capacity of local authorities to lead locally and to engage citizens and communities on climate change and biodiversity. Local authorities are key decision makers regarding choices relating to energy use, buildings, transport, waste management, green infrastructure and the many other initiatives that can help reduce our emissions. The sector has already commenced this work in leading the local challenge to climate change with the establishment of the regional climate action offices, CAROs, in 2018, which have driven climate action responses at local level including building capacity, awareness and training with both local authority staff and elected members.

The CARO offices have developed a comprehensive local authority climate action training programme for all local authority staff and the 949 elected members. This training has been rolled out over the past 12 months with tailored training for the members and staff in championing leadership to harness that local leadership role of the members in driving effective climate action.

All local authorities, including the cathaoirligh and mayors, have co-signed the Climate Action Charter for Local Authorities and they have been formally adopted in each individual council. The charter commits local authorities to several actions that will ensure that they play a key leadership role, locally and nationally, in delivering effective climate action.

Local authorities have also prepared and published their climate action plans. Further initiatives for the local authorities will include leading the energy transition by retrofitting their social housing stock, reducing our dependence on high-carbon transport systems by providing safe cycling and walking infrastructure, ensuring that local development plans are developed to stimulate economic growth and ensuring no sector of society or community is left behind in the movement to a low-carbon future.

We, in AILG, are committed to ensuring that the elected members have the required training, knowledge and tools to lead and champion the local response to climate change. We have had extensive engagement over the past number of years with the Department's national emergency management directorate and Met Éireann which have provided briefings to the members on the local authority response to severe weather events and mitigation of severe climate events. As well as working with the CARO offices on the roll-out of their training programme, the AILG have also delivered a comprehensive training programme with the Office of the Planning Regulator and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications on the development plan review process to include areas such as decarbonisation, focusing on the implementation of national climate policy and the roll-out of new energy sources and active travel. We have also just delivered a training module for our members on local government and the sustainable development goals, SDGs. It is important that the members and local authorities embed the SDGs in their county and city plans and local area plans. The members must also ensure that the SDGs are integral to council policy development across all departments. The AILG has also engaged extensively and participated on the advisory body on the marine planning and development Bill and also currently participates on the advisory body on the new national waste and circular economy action plan.

The AILG is delighted to partner with UCC this year in developing a level 7 certificate in continuing education professional development in climate crisis and local government. This Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, approved level 7 certificate has been designed specifically for councillors. It will cover up-to-date policies and initiatives, such as the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Act and the climate action plan. Twenty-six of the AILG's members have just completed this course and are awaiting final results. As we have stated, one of the new emerging roles and responsibilities of the local government sector is responding to the challenges of climate change. It is imperative that the members have the necessary knowledge, education and leadership expertise to lead this challenge and the availability of a bespoke accredited course in climate action is of vital importance for the AILG and its members.

However, as local authorities rise to the challenge of leading the local response to climate change, they also face a number of challenges, particularly around resources. Over the last ten-to-15 years, local authorities have seen a reduction on staff numbers and if the targets on climate action set by the Government are to be delivered at local government level, local authorities will require much-needed additional resources. The AILG welcomes the commitment in the programme for Government that every local authority will have a sufficient number of biodiversity and heritage officers among its staff complement. However, additional staff resources will be needed to work with communities and the public on local initiatives to achieve out climate targets.

Additional resources will also be required for the local government sector in respect of the core philosophy of a just transition and to ensure that no sector of society or community is left behind in the movement to a low-carbon future.

I thank the Chairman and members for listening to our submission. We look forward to participating in the debate.

Chairman

I thank Councillor Crossan for his comprehensive statement. We are a little behind the time and about two and half hours remain in this session. As we do not have all day, I propose, as usual, that members take two minutes in which to ask questions. Guests will be given latitude to answer and take as much time as they need, within reason. Is it agreed that we stick with the two minutes for now? Agreed. If we do have time, there will be a second and third round. If guests wish to contribute on any question, even though it may not have been directed at them, just raise a hand and I will bring them in. If guests are joining us online then please use the raise hand function and I will get to them. I ask members to please indicate their wish to contribute and the clerk will make a list.

I wish to ask the witnesses a broad question because I am sure that all of the members are interested in hearing their views. We, on this committee, all work very hard on this issue week in and week out. I pay tribute to my colleagues on the committee on their efforts. We have found that as we go outside of the committee room to the Oireachtas that generally there is broad consensus at a high level about what is needed. Sometimes I wonder if the penny has dropped about how hard the challenge is going to be that we are setting out on because we have found that generally, it has not been politicised at the Oireachtas level but we have evidence at local authority level that when the meaningful polices and actions start to be implemented, debated and processed that, in some cases, all hell breaks loose. These things can be politicised very easily and quickly, and ultimately the best intentions can falter. We saw that happen in Salthill with the proposed cycle lane and similarly with Strand Road. In Lucan recently, there has been a huge public reaction to the removal of a handful of parking spaces and councillors took sides. In every local authority around the country, when permeability issues are discussed one sees there is resistance and the same with parking, which is also a contentious issue. I seek the views of witnesses on how we can translate this high-level agreement and the urgent need for action to the local level. We must respect the fact that we live in a democracy and everybody is entitled to a view. There are processes and due diligence of course but as we are also in an emergency, we must see this ambition realised. I am very interested in hearing the views of representatives of both the CCMA and the AILG on how we can get the local authority system more on board. I mean the political side as well as the official side. I say that because it will be one our biggest challenges in implementing meaningful climate action. I first address my query to Mr. Mahon and please feel free to bring in colleagues.

Mr. Paddy Mahon

The issue has been covered to some extent in the CCMA submission and that of the AILG. Increasingly, there is a higher level of governance across the local authority sector in the area of climate action. Consequently, climate action is a regular agenda item for all management team meetings across the sector. Most, if not all, local authorities now have a strategic policy committee named as a climate action committee and, in some cases, dedicated exclusively to climate action.

The AILG mentioned the training that is being rolled out at the moment. As I mentioned earlier, training has been made available to 16,000 of our staff out of a total of 29,000 staff and to all of the AILG members. So there has been a significant ramping up of governance and in promoting awareness, and an understanding of our role and the key areas that are involved in addressing climate change and in our functions under climate action.

Earlier I mentioned a very good example of when resources were put in place very quickly. Just over a year ago the Department of Transport, along with the National Transport Authority, NTA, made significant funding available for resources for local authorities to put in place active travel teams. A year later, up to 200 people are working on active travel projects, which are beginning to discover issues on the ground, although they are probably not unexpected. I believe that with the right approach and governance, and the right understanding and training for ourselves and across the whole local government sector, we will build capacity and the know-how that is required to deliver what is effectively a Government policy and a key tool in understanding, and dealing with, climate change.

My colleague, Mr. Joe Boland, eastern and midlands CARO, will comment.

Mr. Joe Boland

I will reiterate the importance of being strategic and what is expected of the 30,000 local authority staff and 950, I think, elected members. Building the capacity of the sector is key. We have about 18,000 people trained between elected members and staff, and I can go into the training structure in more detail. There are different methods used to calculate staff numbers. In the case of senior staff, elected members have a heading in the training plan, which is funded by the Department of the Environment, Communications and Climate Action, and is called championing leadership. There are other streams to that as well.

Policies and legislation are in place. The whole bottom-up aspect is very important and particularly involves municipal districts, Tidy Towns fora and different fora at local level and public partnership networks, PPNs. That is very important when encouraging innovation at local level. There are community capacity building pieces, which are very important. As for what some local authorities have, Kildare County Council has a graduate who works full-time with local communities so there is a whole link with creativity in the arts, for example. That is just a very high-level overview.

Another important point is strategic collaboration and reaching out at other entities at national, regional or local level. One example of strategic collaboration is the GAA green clubs initiative and there are other examples that we can progress.

One must realise that while there are challenges, as the Chairman has rightly pointed out, there are significant opportunities, particularly in the area of economic opportunities, which is an issue we can go into in more detail. We have done a lot of work on that aspect. A lot of that work can be rolled out through the local enterprise offices. We must also not forget just transition and that no one is left behind.

Mr. Mahon mentioned governance. Most local authorities have a climate action team and an energy efficiency officer. Climate action is a standing item on management team agendas, corporate policy group agendas and even on the agendas of full councils. There is also a strategic policy committee on climate action. Therefore, the whole governance piece is very important.

Earlier the adaptation piece was mentioned. Our adaptation plans were adopted in time. We have a lot of statistics and roughly about 85% of the actions nationally have been either delivered or are in the process of being delivered. As Mr. Mahon has outlined, the focus henceforth will be on mitigation and reducing the carbon footprint. We can go into those aspects in more detail. A key important message is that we must be strategic. I have referred to the big-ticket items and we can go into them in more detail.

The Chairman made worthwhile observations and I appreciate there can be disagreement at times. The strategic piece is very important, however, because there are significant challenges ahead, particularly in the context of the new Government targets.

I hope that is helpful.

Chairman

It is very helpful. I thank Mr. Boland. A big part of his answer concerned the bottom-up approach and I agree on that. Is there more we can do? The system we have had for a long time was reformed in the past ten years with PPNs and so on, for very good reasons. Is it equipped well enough? Do we have to engage more in the bottom-up approach and talk to more people to get them on board and help them understand why these changes are important and necessary and how they can be beneficial? We could then pre-empt the stage where councillors feel they need to take sides. The battle is lost if we get to that point. Is there more we can do on the bottom-up approach?

Mr. Martin Keating

The decarbonising project was initiated by the Department of housing and planning. In Mayo, for example, we did it as a competitive bid among our communities. We assisted them in making bids and got them to present their vision and how they would structure it, governance-wise and that, within their communities. We were overwhelmed by the response we got. Ten communities came forward and the outcome is we now have a network of communities in Mayo that want to decarbonise. We brought that back into the council chambers and got those communities to share their vision of decarbonising their communities over the next ten years. It demonstrated to the political system and to us as managers in local government that people have the ambition and it is important to them. That was a big breakthrough and needs to be continually worked on and fed through.

Chairman

That is encouraging. I do not know if there is a study on that example that Mr. Keating could send on to us. Members would be interested in learning more about it. I will go to the political side. I am interested to hear that viewpoint. Mr. Duffy had his hand up. Does he want to come in?

Mr. Louis Duffy

I will look at the strategic approach taken by the sector since the start. Climate action was low on the agenda of local authorities six or seven years ago. There were different approaches and scales of activity in local authorities. With this in mind, the CCMA decided to set up CARO, a shared service that would support the development of expertise and capacity within local authorities. It was established in 2018. The first climate adaptation strategies by local authorities were adopted in 2019, which was just 18 or 20 months after the initiation. The setting has changed so much with the climate action Bill being enacted and the development of the national climate action plan. CARO has worked on the development of guidelines for local authorities in order that they will be in a position to bring in plans for their entire counties. This is a shift from where local authorities were because not only do we have to look at activity of the local authority but we have to look at the ways we can support communities, industry and agriculture in making the transition. For this reason, we can, with the appropriate resources, work with our communities and Departments. That is another challenge because every Department and sector of Government has a responsibility and a role to play. Quite often, the local authority is seen as being the main actor on the ground.

Even in the development of our climate adaptation strategies, CARO representatives were members of the national steering group for adaptation and we engaged with all of the other sectors to ensure our plans matched with theirs. We have such a high level of ambition for Ireland that there is much engagement and alignment of the work of Departments and our sector to make sure we are not contesting or overlapping with what they are doing. We are trying to make the best use of available resources. It is a challenge for us. We need additional resources in our teams and in the local authority sector. Early engagement with PPNs was supported by local authorities, even though the engagement was directly between the Department and the PPN. In every instance, a liaison was offered by local authorities and this can continue.

In the broad response to the Chair's question about how we bring it down to local level, local authorities are there to do that and, even in areas where we are not the primary service delivery agent, we work with the relevant Department and community involved in that area, such as agriculture, industry and commerce generally.

Mr. Nicholas Crossan

Climate change has huge challenges for local government, but also huge opportunities. We see challenges in the training provided, which gives our members the necessary skills to empower the general public and bring it along with us. We are all sceptical of change from time to time but it is important that local members are upskilled as well as we can be to serve our communities. The opportunities include more responsibility for local authorities because we know the local leads and have local knowledge of our areas and how best to serve them with regard to climate change.

A strong point came through concerning sustainable development goals. They have to be incorporated across all Departments, whether in our national plan, our local area plan, regional plan or whatever.

Mr. Tom Moylan

Going back to the Chair's question, climate action is becoming the defining issue of our time. It is the defining issue at national Government and has now come through at local level. Sometimes change is difficult for members and a new way of thinking is needed. We see our role in trying to give that knowledge and skill set to our members and to make them aware of their responsibilities as members of their local authority to deal with issues of climate change and climate action at local level. I found the training really good in the sense that it was about the leadership quality needed from our elected members to bring their communities on board with them. That is hugely important because we have to bring the public on board. Hopefully, as that happens, we will see fewer instances where there is conflict at local level over new initiatives and getting a new way of thinking. We will continue to help with that.

Our development plan reviews with members over the past 12 or 18 months have been hugely important. All local development plans and county and city development plans are at some stage of the review process, some nearing completion. Addressing climate action as part of that review was a big part of the work of the elected members. Going through that process has empowered our members, as well as getting them a new way of thinking. As the objectives of the development plans are rolled out over the next six years, which is the lifetime of the plans, I hope they will deliver on their responsibilities on climate action.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Moylan. I am aware that I am taking much more than my allocated time, but I wish to flesh this out some more. Does the AILG view its role as just training and informing its members or would it step in during a situation like that at Salthill, Lucan or wherever and advise its members that the situation is important and they should think carefully about it and perhaps go a certain way? I am despondent. Before being elected to the Dáil, I served on a local authority in Limerick. Almost unanimously, its members argued for an almost universal right to build one-off houses. That has major climate implications. Recently, it made some national headlines when members of the local authority argued that the building regulations should be revised so that every new home would have a chimney stack, which is utterly crazy for anyone trying to build energy-efficient housing stock. It seems we are still a long way off, notwithstanding the good work that the AILG and CCMA do. As we go through the session, we might address how to bring the political system on board. "Hostile" is a strong word, so perhaps I should say that it is not as ready as the official side. We will revert to this matter. Other committee members will probably make similar points.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank the witnesses for their presentations and contributions so far. I will pick up on a couple of points. The title of this session is "Challenge and Opportunity for Local Authorities in Climate Action". Regarding challenges, I am hearing about staffing issues at local government and CARO levels. What is the extent of workforce planning? There are a number of headline positions, but what number and types of positions need to be filled at local government and CARO level? What difference would filling them make in practical terms?

What has been the experience thus far of drafting county development plans? To what degree are they, or should be, co-ordinated? What oversight is there of them? They contain obligations to meet targets.

What has been the witnesses’ experience of the bottom-up element? This is an emerging field, but can they provide examples of successes? What opportunity has there been to work with PPNs? I have a particular interest in sustainable energy communities, SECs. Do the witnesses see a role for local government in this regard? What community-led and supported vehicle can deliver on climate action? There is some complementarity between PPNs and SECs, but they are separate in many ways.

Mr. Paddy Mahon

I might ask my colleague, Mr. Mellett, of the Atlantic seaboard north CARO to discuss staffing. He did a great deal of work on preparing business cases.

Before I turn to him, each local authority has gone through, or is going through, a county development plan process.

A number of plans have been reviewed and adopted, overseen by the Planning Regulator. It is an ongoing process, but climate action is an overarching theme. It was a significant part in our case in Longford, particularly with the just transition owing to the closure of power stations in the midlands.

The county development plan process is guided by the national planning framework and the regional spatial and economic strategy, RESS. There is a co-ordinated approach to development plans, with climate action a significant theme therein. It permeates through the various sections of our county development plan and every other plan. The reviews of these plans will have a significant input from the response to climate action. There is considerably more detail involved than I have laid out, but climate action is an important theme now compared with previous county development plans and the process has significant regard to it.

Regarding the bottom-up element, our sector engaged in the national dialogue on climate action last year and this year. These were conversations on climate action that were co-ordinated by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications with cross-Government support. We were happy to be involved as a sector. Through our involvement, the PPNs and Comhairle na nÓg were involved in those conversations last year, which helped to inform the climate action Bill and the subsequent Climate Action Plan. This year’s conversations on climate action are being organised at the moment. Last year, a sample of PPNs were included in the conversations. All of our PPNs will be included this year. This is a positive message, not only to communities, but to the local government sector, given that we were happy to facilitate that process last year. The process works well. It gives communities the opportunity to play a meaningful and significant part in how climate action is addressed. The message that we keep sending at local, regional and national levels is that we are well placed to impact locally on national and global issues in terms of climate action. The PPNs and SECs have a positive impact at a local level.

I understand that the Department is due to roll out a community climate action fund. Through our involvement with the Department over the past year, that fund is being rolled out via local authorities in partnership with communities and PPNs. This is another positive contribution that we can make.

Mr. David Dodd

The 2021 Climate Action Plan set a target of 1,500 SECs by 2030. Significant progress is being made on this across all local authorities, particularly in recent years through regional mentorships. I will refer to one of the accompanying documents that was sent with our opening statement, namely, the CARO progress report, which provides some detail on the SECs. In the Dublin and wider mid-eastern region, 142 SECs have been set up, with 80 in the four Dublin catchment areas alone.

We view the SECs as playing a key role in the bottom-up approach. They are coming from the community and could be GAA or other sports clubs, local community halls or Tidy Towns groups combining with local sports halls. They come together to draft energy master plans, perhaps including the retrofitting of some residential houses, and then apply to the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI.

An issue we have encountered is that of bridging funding at community level. There needs to be some funding for groups to draft energy master plans. We are overcoming this issue through a memorandum of understanding with the local authority sector, which would provide the bridging funding for communities to get their energy master plans over the line. A master plan might call for a community hall to be insulated, solar panels to be put on its roof, etc.

The Dublin region and some other CARO regions are working directly with energy agencies. In the case of Dublin, that is Codema. Other energy agencies, for example, Tipperary Energy Agency, are doing a great deal of good work through local communities and SECs and driving community involvement in energy efficiency and climate action.

Mr. Paddy Mahon

Mr. Mellett might respond on the issue of resources.

Mr. David Mellett

To start with the question on the sectoral strategy to deliver on climate action, it is about leveraging our 29,000 staff and the 949 elected members to lead on climate action. All the interactions the existing staff have offer an opportunity to bring climate action into the conversation and be part of the considerations on whatever function or programme is being discussed. In developing the strategy, we identified core staff who were required to leverage the full ambition for the sector. To start with energy officers, we have tough targets in the context of our absolute emissions targets for 2030, so we are looking for energy officers to be deployed in each of the local authorities to help to deliver that. In addition, the energy officers will start to build knowledge and capacity within each of the local authorities which can feed back into the communities to provide advice on the new technologies that are appropriate for them. The second area of focus is climate action community officers. To follow on from the earlier discussions, a continuous engagement with the community for a bottom-up approach whereby we co-create a solution that is appropriate for each community is resource-intense. That is why we are looking for climate action community officers to carry out those engagements, consistently interact with the community and feed back into the different functions within the local authority. Third, there is a need for green solution specialists who will work alongside the planning departments but also feed into the adaptation strategies. We are considering our land use policies and nature-based solutions to adapt to the risks and impacts from climate change.

As regards the overall role for local authorities, one of the major roles in adaptation in particular is to co-ordinate the national and sectoral adaptation policies down at the local level. We identified climate action co-ordinators to assist with that and, in addition, to help to co-ordinate the broader role of climate action - the mitigation and community engagement piece - and co-ordinate the overall climate action team. To assist them, we also identified the need for a climate action officer within each local authority. One of their primary roles will be that cultural change within the local authority so that all 28,000 staff are aligned to deliver on climate action, but also to provide support to the co-ordinator or community officer for different programmes, such as the community conversations that were rolled out with the national dialogue. Those are the positions we identified in the sector. There are different metrics in respect of each of the roles. In total, we identified 170 positions across the 31 local authorities.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Has that business case been accepted, agreed and adopted? Do our guests have an update on how many of the staff are in position? I know some local authorities are getting on with the work in the meantime but do our guests have an update in terms of the complement of local authorities?

I do not know if any of our guests can address the possible need at a CARO level.

Mr. David Mellett

I can speak to the question on CARO. CARO was initially set up in 2018 with the main aim of adaptation but that role has been expanded. The report published last year by the Climate Change Advisory Council identified the potential that is within CARO to drive this on. We identified a resource in respect of adaptation to specialise in that area. Similarly with the role of energy, it is to support the local authorities on their own energy transitions but also to provide support to communities and planners to mobilise that element of climate action. I refer to the need for a planning and green specialist to help to co-ordinate and roll out green solutions. I refer to the need for a data specialist as a shared resource across the four local authorities, particularly in the context of adaptation. There are many data sets relating to risk and there is a need for a person to collate and manage those.

As regards funding, once the projects have been identified, there is a need to ascertain what funding sources are available. That will be the role of a specialist who can examine what national and European funding is available and help local authorities to capture that. I refer to the whole area of communicating climate action and, in particular, the good work that has been done by local authorities and communities. It is about communicating policies and funding streams to local authorities but also to communities.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

Have any of those positions been filled? In the first instance, is there agreement that they should be filled?

Mr. Paddy Mahon

I will take that question. As the Deputy stated, some local authorities have gone ahead and put people into some of these positions but, by and large, that has not happened across the sector. It is a resource issue. There is no point in denying that. There is great ambition, as I stated, but having the funding in place is critical for many local authorities. We have engaged, particularly with the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications, on this matter for more than a year. Mr. Mellett and his colleagues prepared a business case that was submitted earlier this year and helped to inform the Department in preparing its own internal business case that I understand is going through the departmental processes. Our expectation and hope is that it will secure funding to allow these resources, or some of them, to be put in place. We are awaiting a response from the Department in respect of what, if any, funding might be made available. What is critical to us at the moment is that although the ambition is there among our staff and the elected members, as the committee heard, there is a timing issue because we expect the Minister, before the end of the year, to direct every local authority to prepare its climate action plan. That will demand more resources straight away. The earlier we have people in place, the earlier we can prepare and put in place a meaningful climate action plan for every city and county council in the country.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

What is the headline figure in terms of the overall funding to populate those positions?

Mr. Paddy Mahon

Mr. Mellett may have that figure.

Mr. David Mellett

It is approximately €11.5 million per annum.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank our guests.

Chairman

May I ask a quick add-on question? If the local authorities are instructed to develop the climate action plans at the end of the year, do our guests envisage there will then be a review of county development plans, depending on what those climate action plans come up with? It may be the case that once that process is gone through, there are all sorts of things that are not consistent with the county development plans.

Mr. Paddy Mahon

It depends on the stage at which each local authority is in the process of their development plans. In some cases, the timing of the development plan might align with the development of the climate action plan. In other cases, the county development plan, such as ours in Longford, may need to be reviewed in the context of what emerges from our climate action plan. I do not think the responses for each of the 31 city and county councils will be similar but regard will have to be had to what is in the county development plan.

Mr. David Dodd

I will comment briefly on behalf of the four Dublin local authorities, which are among the larger local authorities in the country. They are slightly different as, since 2019, they have prepared climate change action plans through working with Codema. Those include adaptation and mitigation actions. As Mr. Mahon stated, there are several other local authorities that have mitigation elements in their climate adaptation or climate action plans. The vast majority are just adaptation actions. In the context of Dublin, the targets and actions that are already there in terms of retrofitting public buildings, social housing, etc., are already being taken into account in the context of the city and county development plans in the Dublin region. A similar situation pertains in other regions that already have mitigation targets included.

Chairman

Is it a reserved function of local authority members to review the development plans? It is. Okay. That could be a problem.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I thank our guests for their comprehensive opening statements and fulsome answers to the questions that have been asked. The Chairman and Deputy O'Rourke may have been looking over my shoulder when I was writing down my questions earlier. They are probably the obvious questions in respect of the role and function of our guests in the context of climate action.

I have a couple of questions for Councillor Crossan. First, I thank him for speaking to us. I am a former local authority member in Fingal. One of the issues that arose in terms of the training that was made available to local authority members is that the level of that training and the accreditation that was offered by that training was never perhaps where it should be. I appreciate things have changed since I left the local authority in 2011. Does Mr. Crossan feel, given his extensive experience, that this is still present and that there might be a difficulty in regard to regulated accredited training for members in their function, particularly as it relates to climate action?

I have a similar question, which I feel has been answered, in terms of identifying the roles that are going to be needed across local authority level, within the local authorities themselves and within their workforce. Notwithstanding the identified figure and the sum which Mr. Mellett has given us, we are now moving very rapidly. Identifying the individuals and then identifying the budget we will need to acquire them, so to speak, is fantastic. However, are we going to achieve the target of actually getting the expertise into the local authorities if any particular local authority does not have that level of expertise available to it?

Related to the Chairman's opening salvo of questions regarding a possible lack of willingness at local authority level among members, do we need to consider a legislative change in regard to the process of providing pedestrianisation, cycle tracks and other climate-friendly measures, as I consider them, that local authorities are trying to achieve in certain places? There are process issues that have been identified with certain applications as opposed to local authorities making a democratic decision not to proceed with a particular scheme, which is a different thing.

In regard to the local authorities’ role in improving biodiversity, the Chairman mentioned one-off housing. I would go a little further than the Chairman in saying that there is a middle ground but there is no line in some local authorities, whereas in others it is an absolute and they are just not provided anymore, certainly not in the same way they were provided in my time. I think there is a middle ground to be found where a carbon-neutral or low-carbon property can be delivered. The Chairman mentioned chimneys being put back in and things like that. This is just as frustrating as seeing A-rated new properties with gas boilers, and I have come across those in recent times as well. It is incredibly frustrating.

Are local authorities adequately equipped to properly administer our rivers and lakes? I reference to a certain extent the river basin management draft, which is on public display at present. There are many examples where local authorities are either unable or unwilling - probably unable - to fulfil their functions, and I am not just talking about my own constituency or county but others that I have read about and am aware of. Is that going to be a problem in the future in terms of clean-ups, including discharges into our rivers and lakes, and the impact that can have on flora and fauna, water, aquatic life and the general quality of land surrounding our lakes and rivers?

There is a broad range of questions there to top up what had already been asked by the Chair and Deputy O'Rourke.

Chairman

Thank you. I am not sure who to go to first.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I started with Councillor Crossan.

Mr. Nicholas Crossan

I thank Deputy Farrell for his questions. In the last few years, there has been comprehensive training with the Office of the Planning Regulator, OPR, and the CARO, and also an accredited partnership with University College Cork. I will let Mr. Moylan take that up shortly.

Before I move to that, the Chairman asked whether the AILG would get involved with the local authority regarding, for example, Salthill. The AILG is a representative body of all 949 members plus all 31 local authorities. While we must respect the democratic standards that the councillors have in that field, from time to time we have councillors, groups and political parties coming along for advice and guidance on that. If that happens, the AILG steps in and we offer our services to them to the best of our ability, and there are issues which we can deal with internally or else contact whatever Department it might be for advice. However, we would respect the democratic right of each local authority.

I hope that answers the question. I will hand over to our director, Mr. Moylan, on the question of training.

Mr. Tom Moylan

I thank the Deputy for the question. There is an argument for another day about the local government reforms of 2014. However, in fairness to the then Minister, Phil Hogan, at that time, as part of those reforms, he asked the AILG, which was the new representative body following those reforms, if we would take on a training and education remit with our elected members. Over the last six years, we have developed a comprehensive training module in conjunction with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, which has given us access to tremendous speakers across all Government Departments, sectors and public agencies. A number of the members who are at this afternoon's meeting have attended our training days and given briefings to our members. We have expert presenters made available to us as part of the training programme.

We want to take that training programme into the area of a continuous professional development programme for our members, and sitting parallel with that is a certified training module which we have pioneered with UCC. As I said, 26 members have just completed a level 7 certificate in climate action and local government. Hopefully, pending successful exams, they will have a level 7 QQI certificate later in the summer, and they will have that because of the AILG, which is a really good legacy for us.

That is what we want to do. We want to empower our members. We want to give them the required skills and knowledge to do that, so they can participate on these types of issues and they can speak at local authority level with confidence on the areas of climate action for housing, planning or whatever else because they have that skill set. That is our plan and we are certainly getting there.

I appreciate that certified training is not for everybody. We have a wide and diverse body of 949 councillors so we want to keep a tier under that of continuous professional development for our members. Over the years, we have seen local authority elected members giving 20, 30 or 40 years of service to their local authorities and maybe walking away with nothing as regards a certificate or a piece of paper to acknowledge that service. That is where we want to get to. That is our aim and we are doing that in conjunction with the Department and with the executive side of the local authorities as well. We are very grateful for the expert speakers who are made available to us right across the board.

With regard to the lack of willingness of local authority members in delivering on climate action at local government level, what I would say is that a lot of work is being done at the moment in regard to a review of the county and city development plans. As Mr. Mahon stated, our members have put in long hours over a long period, engaging with their executive and their planners, engaging with communities, engaging with the public and reviewing the submissions that have been made as part of this process. Climate action has really come to the fore as part of that process and we hear that on the ground with our members across the board.

The challenge once these plans are adopted and approved by the elected members is what happens then, and we are taking that challenge to our members. Their job cannot just be done when the development plan has been approved.

They must start delivering on the objectives of the development plan as well and bringing them into their everyday work as members of the local authority. That is the next challenge for us. We are pioneering more training with the Office of the Planning Regulator and with the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and we are saying, "Your development plan has been approved now, so what happens next?" That is where we have to take this conversation with our elected members.

I hope that answers the questions.

Deputy Alan Farrell

That was very comprehensive.

Mr. Paddy Mahon

I will respond to the other questions from the Deputy. In terms of achieving the target resources, assuming we have funding in place for some or all of those resources, it is definitely a challenge. It is a factor of the labour market at present. One example is that, more than 12 months ago, funding was put in place for active travel resources through the Department of Transport in partnership with National Transport Authority, NTA, and 60% to 70% of those resources are now in place 12 months later. It is not something that happens overnight, but significant progress has been made in that space. I expect that with the level of ambition and expectation there is within the sector, it would be treated as a priority by city and county councils. However, there is no doubt it does not happen overnight and there is no point pretending otherwise.

The Deputy mentioned the prospect of having to change legislation in respect of experimental traffic and trying to put in place alternative traffic systems. That has been raised with us through our committees at the County and City Management Association, CCMA, and we have engaged with the Department of Transport on it to see if the existing legislation is fit for purpose or if it needs to be changed. It is with the Department of Transport at this stage. In my past, along with one of my colleagues we did an experimental pedestrianisation of Main Street in Westport approximately 20 years ago and we learned a lot from the feedback from businesses, politicians and the public. It is very important to be able to do these things, but to do them in partnership with the communities, businesses and enterprises so things can be learned from them without creating significant opposition and antagonism in that space. It would be helpful if the legislation allowed it to happen more easily, possibly, but at present we have passed that back to the Department of Transport and look forward to its response on it.

The Deputy also mentioned the issue of river water quality and groundwater quality. That is something another committee of the CCMA is dealing with. A business case is being prepared in partnership with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to put in place the necessary resources local authorities need to manage that area effectively. That is going through a business case process in partnership with the Local Government Management Agency, LGMA. In time we expect it will deliver in terms of resources so that area can be managed effectively as well.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Is there a timeframe for that, as it is rather pressing and it has been in the background for many years? The river basin management plan is not in its infancy but has been in existence for many years. It is only now being updated.

Mr. Peter Burke

We have the local authorities water project office in place. As Mr. Mahon said, there is a business case that has just kicked off this year. It is a year-long timeline that is being funded by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. It is to present that within the year. That will set out what an expanded local authority water projects office will look like. We will probably rebrand it as natural water function. It will come back to the underlying issue, which is resources, but it will set out what the request is and what that reformed structure will look like. We are talking about a year for the business case to be developed. It is quite comprehensive and there is a lot of work to be put in place to do that.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I would imagine so. Chairman, that might be a subject this committee could come back to because it would be helpful for us to support our colleagues on the housing or transport committees, or both, to get into that. It is something that is critical to the delivery of the national climate action plans.

Does anybody wish to make any observations on the one-off housing?

Chairman

Stay well away. There are no observations.

Mr. Tom Moylan

May I, Chairman?

Chairman

Go ahead.

Mr. Tom Moylan

One-off housing is a major issue. It is a talking point among our members, particularly our rural-based councillors, and it is often raised. In fairness to our members, they are looking at their local communities, especially in rural areas, which they have seen being strongly affected over the past generation. They are trying to protect their local communities. For our members and for ourselves, it is about getting the balance right. We must look at solutions that get the balance right, that solve the issue of one-off rural housing, and that look at how we can develop our towns and villages and how we can get services into them that will allow people to remain in their rural communities, perhaps not in one-off rural houses but by building up the towns and villages. However, the services are needed there. They need the community services and the infrastructure services. It is a very difficult and emotive issue with our members so, for us and our members, it is about the getting the balance right.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I will conclude on this point. I fully agree with Mr. Moylan. There is a balance there and it is about making sure the services are delivered and the balance is right. However, the local authority system across the board should be very conscious of the level of vacancy and dereliction throughout the State and particularly in rural towns and villages. I might be from Malahide but I know rural Ireland very well over many years. The census will give us an opportunity to drill down into the actual numbers, as opposed to desktop exercises, which is what we are operating from at present, to find out if it is 196,000 or if it is a smaller figure. Given the audience before me, I ask that local government focus on that and use the schemes that are available through both the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications to try to further the renewal of towns and villages in rural Ireland, to use those vacant properties, and to reduce the requirement for one-off houses at the end of a boreen with no services but where there is an entitlement under the rural housing policy of the given local authority, and the difficulties this creates then in terms of delivery of services and the delivery of services in an environmentally friendly way.

I thank the Chairman for this opportunity.

Chairman

I thank Deputy Farrell. If I may make an observation, Mr. Moylan's point is a strong one. If we do not provide the services in our villages and towns and make them places where people will want to live and can live and make them attractive places, obviously people will look elsewhere and they might be more inclined to seek to build rurally. For me, that is where the effort should go. It is to create the positive incentive to solve the problem, rather than the negative.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I thank our guests. Many of the questions have been covered so I might change the topic slightly and broaden it out to some of the stuff that has been raised with regard to the joined-up approach in planning. This committee heard recently about buildings that are being demolished as opposed to being repurposed, the carbon footprint of that, and that the best and most efficient building is the building that is still standing. Are the local authorities doing any type of analysis of what buildings could be repurposed? For example, the one that broke my heart was the Kevin Street technical college. It was a fantastic building and it has now been demolished, but I believe it could have been repurposed. Are local authorities looking at that?

Also, with regard to joined-up thinking when it comes to fossil fuel lock-in and water use around planning permission for data centres and data centres having to have their own gas generation on site, are the local authorities doing any analysis of whether that leaves them exposed in terms of lock-in to fossil fuel?

There is the identification of homes that are at risk of sea level rises and the plans to address that. We heard on a recent podcast about issues in Galway with moving back from the coastline and where it is possible build. Are we identifying the properties that might need coastal adaptation measures or properties that might not be saved? How do we engage with the people living in those houses?

Dublin City Council has passed a motion and is progressing work on community wealth building as has Limerick County Council. There are great examples of where community wealth building in Britain is having a fantastic impact in shortening supply chains, keeping the wealth in communities and facilitating just transition. After all, local authorities are anchor institutions and they have quite a lot of power when it comes to procurement and things like that. If they led by example through a community wealth building model, it would facilitate a just transition, shorten those supply chains and put in place restrictions around procurement so that, for instance, it would have to be energy efficient or use sustainable products rather than just buying at the lowest price. I do not know who might want to answer any of those.

Mr. Paddy Mahon

I will ask Mr. Bergin from Dublin City Council to respond and Mr. Duffy might deal with the question on sea level rises because Atlantic Seaboard South is looking at the coastal issue.

Mr. Liam Bergin

On repurposing buildings, we are doing a good bit of work on embodied carbon at the moment. If a building is knocked down, there is a carbon consequence of that, as there is if a new one is built. We are looking at that in our city and county development plans. Some have gone through and they might not have had as much time to develop that notion. In this iteration of city and county development plans it is an emerging issue. I have no doubt it will be much further developed in the next cycle, which will be in four years for the majority of local authorities. It is something at which our planners, architects and housing sections are looking. I am not surprised it is absent from the ones that are about to expire but they will be much more conscious of that from now on because it is a major issue. It also makes a lot of practical sense, especially when working in a city. The effort involved in restoring a property can be much more community friendly rather than knocking a building where it may not or may not be necessary.

The question around outputs from fossil fuels is something on which we are very keen. I am thinking of Dublin but there are more examples of that now, particularly with data centres, as the Senator mentioned, and the outputs relating to them. Initially, it might have been hoped we would be looking at electricity into the carbon centres. It is only because the grid cannot manage it that we are looking at local fossil fuel solutions around that. My understanding, and obviously it will be specific to each planning application, is that fossil fuel will back up the electricity, that is, it will run off the grid insofar as possible but the fossil fuel is there for cases where there is blackout or a difficulty. The fossil fuel is complementary rather than the main source of power. Certainly, it is something on which we are focused.

The Senator will be familiar with the district heating schemes in Dublin city where we are looking at the waste to energy plant. That is a very significant scheme but south Dublin also has a district heating scheme from a data centre. That is very significant heat output. It is a negative, unfortunately, at the moment if it is using fossil fuel. Mostly it is using about 40% renewable energy. We are capturing the output. That output will give us a positive back into that. At the moment we are there or thereabouts but as the grid becomes more renewable, then it will be a pure benefit to the district heating scheme because it will be coming almost exclusively from renewable energy, but just with the backup. The Senator will understand why they would need a fossil fuel backup, especially when relying on solar or wind. From that perspective, it is something of which we are very conscious. It is being factored into any data centre getting planning permission now. A site will be being chosen that will allow us to capture those downstream benefits, in terms of hot water especially. They will be campuses rather than particular stand-alone data centres in the future to allow that.

On sea level rises, my colleague Mr. Duffy from Atlantic Seaboard South is more fully involved in looking at coastal erosion nationally. I agree, we have to stop making it worse by building houses close to the sea. That is an issue and the Office of Public Works is strongly involved with Mr. Duffy. He will cover that.

As the Senator says, Dublin City Council passed a motion on community wealth. Some colleagues in my own area of Dublin City Council are working on that now. It is being led by the finance section and is under the finance strategic policy committee, SPC. The work is at an early stage. The Senator is right we are paying particular attention to what has been achieved in the UK on this. It seems to have widespread support across Dublin City Council. I would say we are a little while away from any practical implementation on the ground. I understand that within 12 months it will be finding its way into the policies councillors will be adopting. A bit like the strategic development goals, SDGs, it will be flagged to reflect that perspective or ideology coming towards it. We are at the early stages but there seems to be widespread engagement across a number of departments in Dublin City Council and I think that it will be favourably received at council level.

On the materials used for buildings it would be a case of looking at the building regulations around that. They specify what materials can and should be used in development. We would be guided by that because any planning permission application we receive would be required to comply with building regulations, so it is a case of the technical specifications that are preferable. We have some things in our county development plan, and it is probably obvious, around the classes of development we would like to see. It would be easier to get planning permission for an A-rated house than for a B-rated house. Obviously, there are a lot of regulations around retrofitting too. It depends on whether a certain portion of the building fabric is being exceeded. I will say 51% but I cannot say exactly. If a house or building is being rehabilitated significantly, it is a requirement to bring it to a B2 standard. We would be guided by those regulations as well. Those national requirements would be reflected in our county development plans and other plans we would have locally.

Senator Lynn Boylan

On district heating, the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, did its heat map study, and a key thing it identified was district heating. The potential for its use is more widespread than it first considered. What sort of resources do the local authorities need? The SEAI is saying it will not just be our cities but that villages and towns will also be able to avail of district heating. What would the local authorities need to bring that district heating on stream as quickly as possible? That would allow us not to have to focus as much on heat pumps. It is a much quicker way of bringing down emissions.

Planning guidelines have to be changed to ensure the most efficient design of data centre is being used in terms of energy and water use. Irish Water made the point to me. Are local authorities making those observations when the planning applications come in? Irish Water has made those observations repeatedly because it is not actually stipulated in the planning guidelines that the most efficient design must be used.

Mr. Liam Bergin

To answer the simple one first, on oversight, the Office of the Planning Regulator gives guidance to local authorities about the particular conditions that should be applied to the design of data centres. A significant amount of work has been done on that. The Office of the Planning Regulator would have engaged with bodies such as the SEAI, the Department and the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, on that. There is also an umbrella group for data centres. A significant amount has been learned by the local authorities within the local area structure and from those external agencies. Unfortunately, that is where the simple answers end because then the question is what we need to enable district heating, and that is very complicated. From the local authority perspective, it is an enormous untapped resource for us. We could provide district heating to 1.5 times the number of houses we have in Dublin if we could get it up and running. It is extraordinary. District heating would be preferable, in my view, to air source heat pumps.

There is a significant cross-departmental focus on it. A working group has been established and is working on the issue currently. It will produce a report by October. The work includes listing the bottlenecks, as it were, in the context of providing district heating. Dublin City Council will be providing the heating. Our current work programme suggests that it will be the end of 2025 or perhaps even into 2026 before we will be able to deliver it. However, that will be dependent on a series of stakeholders contributing to the work.

Sometimes there is frustration that the local government sector is moving slowly on district heating in Ireland. It should be noted, however, that the local government sector in Ireland is much more constrained than is the case in Europe. For example, local authorities in Finland have a much wider base of power. It may be the case, for example, that we will need to put in 7.3 km of pipe for the district heating scheme. We do not have the legislative power to open the road to lay the pipe. We would have had that power once a upon a time, before Irish Water was established. We need a whole host of legislative powers to do the work. That is just the legislative side. Due to the fact that district heating is a new technology for Ireland, the SEAI has to decide on the appropriate rating mechanism. For example, a developer who has to meet the requirements of the building regulations to comply with an A rating will have to demonstrate that the district heating meets the requirements. At the moment, we do not have that capacity. Everyone, including the marker, has their part to play in relation to the project. We are a lot closer than people think to delivering it. It will make a massive contribution to Dublin city. I am perfectly happy to share information with the committee. In March we shared a document with the Department detailing what Dublin City Council feels is necessary and what we need from the Department. There are other players that we need to engage with. I am happy to share that information with the committee.

Senator Lynn Boylan

That would be great.

Chairman

We would certainly appreciate that.

Mr. David Dodd

I should add that we can also send some information on a recent district heating project delivered by South Dublin County Council and Codema, the energy agency, which took waste heat from the Amazon data centre there. The waste heat was taken and used in residential, commercial and council buildings. That project was undertaken from last October. We can share that information with the committee.

Chairman

We would be very keen to see that. I call Deputy Cronin.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Apologies if my question has already been asked.

Chairman

Sorry, Deputy Cronin. Mr. Mahon wanted to respond to the last set of questions.

Mr. Paddy Mahon

I might refer to my colleague, Mr. Duffy, to respond to the Senator's question about the coastal issue.

Mr. Louis Duffy

We look at the issue of coastal erosion, sea level rise and coastal deposition. These are issues that have challenged our island for many years. They have been dealt with generally by trying to protect anything that has been identified as damaged or exposed. Nationally, and as a sector, we are trying to look at it more strategically now, and trying to plan how we will deal with it in the future. Both erosion and sea level rise would have been seen as risks that led to the assignment of the Atlantic Seaboard, as a pair of CARO regions, to look at the whole area. Nationally, the issue has been led very much by the Office of Public Works, OPW. There is an interdepartmental committee reviewing the issue. A draft report has been prepared. It will be reviewed by the committee and hopefully published within the next number of weeks or months. The OPW has identified that 2 million people live within 5 km of the coast in Ireland. It has looked at the various different types of coastline, including hard rock, beaches, artificial coast, erodible rock and muddy coastline. Through the OPW, and with the assistance of Geological Survey Ireland, we are starting to identify the areas of coast that are at risk. Building on that, we will look at where interventions have been undertaken in the past, and where areas are generally at risk. In 2017, Fingal County Council carried out a survey of a number of coastal counties in the country. The survey identified what work had been done already and what work is ongoing with regard to identifying the risk and mitigating it.

When Atlantic Seaboard South took up the baton in this area, we formed a working group which included members from the relevant Department and subject matter experts from right across the country.

We looked at counties that had already done some work on the issue. We brought officials from those councils onto the working group. The first stage in that was to rerun the survey that had been done by Fingal County Council in order to try to get a complete picture of the national coastline. We found that just eight local authorities have undertaken processes to identify the areas at risk. Those authorities identified 2,279 properties deemed to be at risk as a result of coastal erosion. We are starting to go through a lot of the statistics on that. Generally speaking, we are starting to get the point of understanding the areas that are at risk.

We are working alongside the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, which is the Department with responsibility in this area and which is leading the interdepartmental group. As a sector, we are trying to ensure that we can collect and collate the information at a local level, feed that into the national interdepartmental working group and then take the learnings from that, interpret them and prepare guidelines for local authorities to work on. Typically, Ireland has sought to protect what coastline we can, and attempted to ensure that no properties are damaged. Having said that, 12 properties have been identified as being lost to coastal erosion. That is an increase of seven since the 2017 report.

Ten local authorities around the coastline have outlined processes to identify roads at risk. These are developing areas, and we are also challenged by resourcing issues. However, we are starting to make some progress in the area. In recent discussions with officials from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, we have set out to develop a protocol for establishing a baseline, looking at the existing coastline, the existing interventions that have been carried out historically and the areas that are immediately at risk. This will build an overall national picture of the areas of coast that we need to consider in terms of protection or indeed, managed retreat, if that becomes necessary, which clearly is not the preferred path at this point in time. It is something that we will build a picture of over the next 18 to 24 months. In the sector, the work is led by Atlantic Seaboard South. Nationally, it is led by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

Deputy Réada Cronin

Apologies if my question has been asked already or if the witnesses have commented on the issue. I attended a recent meeting of Oireachtas Members and my local authority, Kildare County Council. The issue of data centres was raised because as there are quite a few in County Kildare, and more are being planned. I ask the witnesses to comment on the fact that local authorities are financially strapped. Do the witnesses find that there is much conflict between those who are working in the environmental side, those working in the financial departments, and indeed, those at executive level? How does the increasing number of data centres sit alongside the climate plans that every local authority has? I have another question. Have the local authorities looked at setting up one-stop shops at county level? I am aware that there are a few SEAI groups in north Kildare, which I represent. How good is that at actually targeting the local authority homes where there is a lot of energy poverty, and getting into the homes where residents may not have the time to go looking for the information? Do local authorities find that they can get the information to the people who really need issues relating to energy poverty to be addressed? I ask the witnesses to respond to my question on data centres first.

Mr. Joe Boland

I would not say that there is any conflict within Kildare County Council in respect of data centres.

Data centres are not without their complexities, even leaving aside climate action elements regarding issues of transport and access. It can be challenging from a planning perspective but I would not say there is any conflict. There are many challenges in progressing a data centre. My colleague, Mr. Bergin, set out the scene in Dublin. One aspect in that respect that has been considered in Kildare is the issue of water usage and the possibility of locating a centre close to a treatment plant where it could recycle grey water. There are many aspects to it but I would not say there is any conflict, however, there are challenges from a spatial planning perspective.

On the one-stop-shop model, sustainable energy communities were referenced by Deputy O'Rourke and he is on the right track with that initiative. There is growing interest in sustainable energy communities. Twenty five of them are registered in Kildare, six are ready to progress to a master plan stage, which is positive. I am aware of one good example of that initiative in Dunleer in County Louth on foot of a presentation to our strategic planning committee, SPC, two weeks ago. Sustainable energy communities benefit the whole community. They are sponsored by Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI. That initiative is strong in Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and the example of it I cited in County Louth is quite good also. My colleague, Mr. Dodd, said there were 120 of them nationally. There is a role for them to interact with individual householders, community groups and industry to advise on the grants available for retrofits or more sustainable systems. There are also opportunities for local energy renewal initiatives. That is being progressed in Dunleer in County Louth. There is potential for the exchange and imparting of information on sustainability to local householders and communities. Each of the climate action regional offices, CAROs, has been assigned a specialism. We would seek in our CARO to increase our knowledge in this area and in the context of the next round of plans to bring forward guidance for local authorities to get more sustainable energy communities up and running. That is one avenue for imparting information on sustainability. I hope that response is helpful to the Deputy.

Deputy Réada Cronin

My question was not only aimed at the representatives from Kildare. Representative of the other local authorities might also like comment?

Chairman

Is it regarding the Deputy's question on the conflict between data centres and-----

Deputy Réada Cronin

Yes. If there is not one, should there be?

Chairman

Is the Deputy alluding to rates revenue and that type of thing?

Deputy Réada Cronin

Yes, revenue accruing from rates given that many local authorities are cash starved. Would there be a reluctance to object to data centres when a local authority would be very reliant on funds accruing from rates and, if there is not conflict at an executive level, should there be? That is a question not only for the Kildare local authority but the other local authorities, although I appreciate that Mr. Boland is from Kildare.

Mr. Joe Boland

I will defer to my colleagues but it is important to point out that any decisions on planning or on proper planning and development are on the basis of policies in development plans. Rates are certainly not considered in that context. My colleagues may also wish to comment on that aspect.

Mr. David Dodd

I will respond to the one-stop-shop element. Other colleagues might like to comment on the former point. Under the national retrofit plan, there are plans for a one-stop shop and I understand a number of them have already registered with the SEAI.

That would be private householders on the local authority side in terms of retrofitting. We are reliant on funding from central government for social housing etc., but the Deputy raised a good point. There is an opportunity to have better models to meet the ambitious target of retrofitting the number of houses that require it. We need to go into an area and deal with social houses and privately owned houses together rather than separately to get better bang for our buck from the Exchange and to do the work, for example, on a row of terraced houses as opposed to one or two along a road. There is an opportunity to have public private partnership but the one-stop-shop model is in place through the national retrofit plan being managed through the SEAI.

Chairman

Has Deputy Cronin concluded?

Deputy Réada Cronin

Yes.

Chairman

We have some time remaining. I will bring in Deputy Smith if she is still online. She indicated she wanted to contribute but she might have stepped out.

I appreciate the witnesses staying with us. I have a question relating to the alignment of the work of local authorities vis-à-vis the development plans, the operational decisions, the climate legislation and the 51% target and net zero target, both of which are set in law. I alluded to some instances with which I am familiar that suggest that alignment is not quite there. I am thinking of issues such as planning to build new roads, one-off housing, the chimney stacks issue I mentioned and the resistance to active travel development, notwithstanding the good progress that has been made. Do both groups represented consider they are constrained by the upcoming local authority climate action plans and that is the route to playing their part in reaching the 51% target or is the responsibility broader than that? Should we not be thinking of the 51% target in every decision we make because we all know it will be very difficulty to achieve it? If we are going ahead and planning new roads or housing developments on the edges of urban areas or even further out that would be very car oriented developments, are we not pulling against the climate legislation? I would be interested to hear the groups' views . I am not sure who to ask to respond first.

Mr. Paddy Mahon

I will begin. As I said, there is timeline issue in that not every local authority is on the same point on the journey in adopting the county and city development plans. In some cases there is an opportunity for alignment between the climate action plan we will all commence probably later on this year and the county development plans which are in the process of being reviewed. In some cases where climate action adaptation plans include mitigation measures, there is the opportunity, as Mr. Dodd said, for those to be incorporated in the development plan that is being rolled out. In cases where the development plans are already adopted, there is a challenge to merge the legal obligations that come with the climate action plan and the county development plan that has been adopted. As a sector we need to begin to understand what emissions we are creating, how to measure them and how to reduce them. That is something the sector, with the support of the climate action regional offices, is beginning to examine. The guidelines developed to assist us to prepare our climate action plans will allow us to do that. We have done good work on climate action in responding to climate change. The sector has met its targets on energy efficiency. That is as a result of a combined approach across all sections of-----

Chairman

To come in on that point, it seems that, rightly or wrongly, the local authorities are seeing their role very much as the operational side of stuff, such as meeting the targets for energy efficiency. However, there is the planning side of it and the emissions that might be induced by the decisions made by local authorities, be that by the executive or reserved decisions.

Transport is the big one for me. You could technically reduce emissions in any local authority by 51% or whatever is required but if you are planning and building roads all over the place, you are actually leading to a significant increase in emissions. Does the CCMA see that as not being a matter for local authorities but for central government and the policies it brings through that would ultimately trickle down?

Mr. Paddy Mahon

There is an opportunity for us to play our role there. Again, we in the Atlantic seaboard south CARO are doing work on adaptation of our regional and local roads. A significant element of that process is understanding the carbon element of how we manage, maintain and build our regional and local roads. That is work we are beginning to do. We are beginning to understand what are the carbon implications of everything we do in the area of roads-----

Chairman

We know; with roads we know. There is no question about it. There is carbon in building them. There is the carbon induced by changing travel patterns. There is no question about this. This is not something we need to do a whole lot of analysis on or innovation on. We know new roads equal increased emissions.

Mr. Paddy Mahon

In a lot of respects we are talking about the existing road network we are obliged to maintain, repair and rehabilitate. We are focused on understanding what the carbon implications are about ongoing works we do - it is just one small example. In the area of new roads we will be obliged to comply with the carbon budgets that impact on transportation. We are a significant player in that but we are obliged to work alongside the likes of TII, the Department of Transport and the NTA to understand what our budget is going to be because we spend significant funds either from central government or from our own resources in the area of roads and transport, so we have a job of work to do to understand what our budgets are, but that would be in partnership with all of Government.

Chairman

Okay.

Mr. Paddy Mahon

If I could give another example, and Mr. Boland might want to come in there, in the area of our public lighting we have made significant progress. We have I think 500,000 public lights. In and around 200,000 have already been retrofitted to LED, so they are significantly reducing the energy consumption but we need to understand how does that head over to reductions in overall emissions. We have a programme to replace the other 300,000 between now and 2025 so we are going to see a significant energy efficiency but as to how that follows through in reductions in emissions, and real reductions in emissions, there is work to be done there. We need to understand that not just on our own but in partnership with policymakers and Departments. One thing is to replace every public light in the country with an LED that is a more energy-efficient source of light but we probably need to do more. We probably need to get more out of that asset. To get more out of that asset we probably need to understand what is involved in what is called trimming and dimming. Do we dim the lights at certain times of day and do we do turn them off at certain times of the day? These are significant policy decisions-----

Chairman

They certainly are.

Mr. Paddy Mahon

-----that the investment in the asset allows us to consider and will in time reduce the emissions from what is an essential service without compromising the safety and security of the citizens who rely on them. There are significant challenges ahead but we feel we are a significant player, although we need engagement at Government level on a lot of areas that are slightly outside our control.

Chairman

Okay. I thank Mr. Mahon. Mr. Duffy wants to come in on that one.

Mr. Louis Duffy

One significant change the climate action plan requirement has brought about for the local authority sector is to expand our role in examining exactly where we stand and what the targets should be. Through the CARO, we are looking at putting together a framework for the appointment of specialists to look at carbon baselines both in our own activities and in those right across the counties.

In that way we can start looking at where action can be taken. It has been said that some of our local authorities might meet their 2030 targets for carbon reduction by some of the actions taken such as the LED shift and the shift to electricity as a source of heating power for our buildings and that, combined with the greening of the network, would make us reach our targets. However, that presumes nothing happens or there is no development. We are a growing country and there are challenges and every additional industry and every additional head of population we have will bring about a carbon demand. What we must get to is that situation where we can look at what the sources of the existing carbon load are and then what are the additionals. We will have to make some national decisions on prioritising what actions we will take.

It is certainly a very complex area. It is one where there are three different levels of carbon assessment that can be carried out at the moment. The first tier of that is something we will be able to do initially but a lot of the information is not available for going to tiers 2 and 3, but that will have to be the basis of the establishment of our first climate action plans. Based on those we will be looking, as I said, not only at our own sector and the areas we can directly control but we will also be providing information on sectors we must influence or sectors we may not have any control over at all and they will have to be brought to a national forum that will make some decisions on that as to where we take the action.

Much is said about agriculture and what it can and cannot achieve. All of that will be in the context of a desire for that particular industry to grow and develop. Other areas of activity in the State will also have to be considered and balanced against our needs. For example, at the moment there is a Government policy document on electric vehicles, EVs, that has been published for consultation. One of the areas we are trying to look at in that is the provision of EV chargers at transport hubs and park-and-ride locations so people living in rural areas who may not have access to public transport would be able to park their vehicles at a transport hub and be able to access cities and towns while charging their car and would be able to make the journey home. There are a lot of intersectoral discussions that will have to take place and in many ways, the apportionment of the targets will have to be reviewed when we look at how successful we are in the first stages of making those improvements.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Duffy. I apologise to our guests from the AILG. I believe Councillor Crossan needs to leave for a meeting. Or is it Mr. Moylan?

Mr. Nicholas Crossan

I thank the Chairman. I must leave for a meeting. Before I go, I thank the committee on behalf of the AILG for the opportunity it has afforded us to take part in this Oireachtas joint committee meeting. I have felt it very beneficial. I assure the Chairman our members will be given more detail on exactly what happened at it. Unfortunately, I must go to another meeting but our director wants to come for a minute to answer any questions. I again thank the Chairman.

Chairman

I thank Councillor Crossan. We certainly appreciate his time and his contributions. I am sure we will chat again. Mr. Moylan may come in.

Mr. Tom Moylan

I thank the Chairman. To go back to his point, and Mr. Mahon has touched on it, to achieve our targets over the next decade the practical measures that have been spoken about will help. There is the retrofitting of our public lighting and of local authority houses and the electrification of the local authority fleet over the coming years. They are concrete measures that can be taken. The role of our elected members is to set the policy for the local authority in any given local authority. When they are setting, reviewing or adopting that policy, it needs to be proofed for decarbonisation. That is the challenge for our members going forward, namely, that they bring in that way of thinking, going forward. These policy decisions, and major policy decision that they are taking need to be proofed for decarbonisation to ensure that not alone are the current climate action targets until 2030 achieved but also out to 2050, where we are looking for a 50% reduction in our emissions.

Chairman

A 100% reduction by 2050.

Mr. Tom Moylan

Sorry - a 100% reduction.

Chairman

So, 50% by 2030 - no pressure.

Mr. Joe Boland

Regarding interaction with planning, I set out a few strategic aspects at the start, including training, strategic collaboration, bottom-up, economic aspects and governance. The interaction between spatial planning and climate action is a very significant strategic aspect and is not without its complexities. For a sense as to what might happen in the future, all local authorities have been asked to nominate candidate de-carbonising zones. Deputy Cronin will be aware that in the case of Kildare, Maynooth has been so designated. That is where there is a concentration of adaptation, mitigation, biodiversity and good planning aspects. They could probably be regarded as a test bed for what might happen in the future. We are still awaiting guidelines on this but we would envisage that there will be a concentration of adaptation and mitigation measures in the areas of public realm, ensuring charging points are available, encouraging linkage with and the use of public transport, public lighting, local innovation and possibly local green enterprise. There is a concentration of measures along with good sustainable planning, particularly co-ordination with the regional spatial and economic strategy. Those de-carbonising activities will be a test bed for planning into the future. It is a very significant strategic aspect.

Infrastructure was referred to. Obviously, this would be a matter for future Government policy but there is provision in the public spending code and a methodology for calculating the carbon footprint of a piece of infrastructure. I can see this coming more and more to the fore in the future, particularly in the context of grants, but, again, this is a matter for Government policy.

The Office of the Planning Regulator was mentioned earlier. This office is taking a very active interest. The Office of the Planning Regulator reviews the plans of local authorities. In the case of Kildare, the entire local area plan was looked at significantly through the lens of climate action and I know the Planning Regulator took a particular interest in that.

We mentioned training earlier. One aspect of our training is thematic specialist training. One area that was identified - rightly so - at the outset was training in the area of spatial planning and climate action. Some 290 staff - mainly planning staff - have been trained to date. There is no question but that climate action is interweaving significantly with so many of our plans and programmes such as our local economic and community plans, economic development strategies and river basin management plans. We have a suite of specialist training in areas such as spatial planning and flood risk management where some 379 staff have received very specialist training to date. A training module in green procurement has been rolled out. We have already produced a specialist module on energy. I mentioned economic activity and local enterprise offices earlier. A lot of research has been done on that and the benefits of that will be rolled out significantly through our training programmes. I think the committee will appreciate that a lot is happening in that space. There is a lot of complexity there. Again, it is important to be strategic and to try to pull these things together at a strategic level be it through decarbonising zones, our training programme or various policies we have. I hope this is helpful.

Chairman

It certainly is.

Mr. Liam Bergin

I will go back to something the Chairman said earlier that was touched on a number of times, namely, constructive and lively discussion in council chambers in terms of translating national policy into local policy. I do not think that is a bad thing. I think it is necessary. First of all, it is a sign of a healthy democracy that people can have their views aired locally. Many councillors and officials are on a journey. Some of them are very climate-conscious while some are becoming more climate-conscious. Everybody has a series of priorities and we are re-ordering those priorities. That is true for councillors as well. Realistically, what we would expect and what we find is that as the priorities of the people re-order so do the priorities of those who represent them, i.e., the councillors. The councillors reflect public opinion. Public opinion is changing-----

Chairman

Public opinion is a challenge because some of this stuff is very difficult. In Salthill, people say "hey, no, we don't want this". How does the system say that this is really important and outline the benefits but also the reason we are doing it? I would be very wary of expecting everybody to demand climate action. Actually, the tendency might be to resist it and, therefore, progress falters.

Mr. Liam Bergin

That is a very good point. Touching on the just transition piece earlier, the burden must be shared across the community. This challenges us to ensure that the plans we bring forward for discussion and adoption by councillors reflect that there is burden sharing there. There are some people who are disproportionately asked to contribute due to their geographic location, socioeconomic position or whatever it is. We must try to proof those plans to ensure that the councillors understand that they fairly represent the benefit to the community. From the planning perspective, we are going to have conflict or constructive and lively discussion in the council chamber. I do not think that is something we should try to avoid. It is something we should welcome provided we get the right results at the end of the day. I think that is a challenge for us as well as the executive to make sure we can bring it forward in a constructive way.

Senator Lynn Boylan

I want to go back to the €11.5 million that was flagged. Is that to resource the enhanced CAROs or is it for the local authorities as well? How does it break down in terms of thinking about staff numbers? Do the witnesses from the CAROs have figures for how many people they think the CAROs will be hiring for that money?

Mr. David Mellett

I can take that question. That was €11.5 million just for the local authority resources we identified. That is broken down across the co-ordinators, energy managers, the climate action officer, the green solution specialist and the community officer. It also takes into account that some local authorities have already filled these positions. From the CARO enhanced structure, we were talking about an additional €1.9 million to provide those additional resources to the CARO.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I will return to the issue of planning and the relationship with the CAROs and local government. One theme that came up in various meetings was the challenge of delivering renewables at the scale that will be required. It seems to me that it is every form of renewable - onshore wind, solar and off-shore wind. One area for the CAROs is the prospect of local authority renewable energy strategies. The Planning Regulator has appeared before this committee.

Various people at different forums have expressed concerns such as, for example, about the amount of land available to develop onshore wind energy. The prospect of zoning areas as suitable in the context of the development of renewable energy gas been mooted. I have a broad question on the challenge of delivering renewables at scale and the types of changes involved, such as in terms of planning processes. For example, we know there is a lack of regulation and updated guidelines in respect of onshore wind. We do not have any for solar. This creates an environment that is not healthy for planning because it leads to developer-led speculation in what is already a challenging planning environment. It makes it even more challenging. This is my perspective. What is the sense of the witnesses about what needs to change to deliver renewables at the scale they are needed?

Mr. Paddy Mahon

In general, the Deputy is right. We are operating on the basis of interim guidelines for wind energy. Finalised guidelines would be very welcome. City and county development plans are required by the regulator to identify areas where each jurisdiction can positively contribute towards the national targets in terms of renewable energy. I will ask Mr. Dodd to go into a bit more detail.

Mr. David Dodd

It is quite a broad question. At national level we have the national planning framework and at regional level there are regional assemblies that identify regional policy objectives for renewables, such as the identification of renewables zones. At local level there are the county and city development plans. There are also existing and future climate action plans to try to identify renewable elements. Speaking on behalf of the climate action regional office I work in, we have the benefit of working with Codema, which is an energy agency that has developed a regional energy master plan. It is being formally launched tomorrow and there will be a webinar on it. Codema works directly with the four Dublin local authorities to identify opportunities in heat and transport to find solutions that can reduce the emissions in those sectors. These solutions could be district heating in Dublin city from the waste-to-energy plant or from data centres in south Dublin. There is also the potential for offshore energy. Depending on the location there are other possibilities. For example, Ireland is certainly a laggard in using anaerobic digestion, whether it be slurry or food waste, compared with other countries in Europe. This is linked to the regulatory regime. There is no attractive feed-in tariff for the private sector and farmers to get involved.

There is a broad range of opportunities. In terms of local authorities it is very much dependent on the national regulatory framework that has been set to meet the targets, such as in terms of a percentage of renewables by a particular date. Deputy O'Rourke mentioned solar power. We are slow in this regard nationally. The Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, opened the first large-scale solar farm in recent weeks. The planning perspective is not an area that climate action regional offices get involved in. We were set up on an adaptation footing and have moved into climate action mitigation. With regard to this enhanced structure there is a need for wider capacity in terms of energy managers regionally and at local authority level to help drive the renewable transition. There certainly are opportunities that local authorities can avail of.

With regard to decarbonising zones, as Mr. Boland mentioned there is an opportunity for test beds for renewables and for public private partnerships. There is already an example of community-owned wind infrastructure in Tipperary. It took a long time to get through the system. We need to make community-owned energy opportunities much more streamlined. We need to reduce the time involved. In July there will be a package to allow domestic owners and people who have made investment in solar and micro-scale wind to get a feed-in tariff for excess energy.

These are all incentives that can help to drive us to meet our renewable targets. We are very much reliant on the regulatory system aligning to enable us to do so.

Chairman

I want to ask about cars and transport generally. We certainly have to encourage people onto active modes and sustainable transport. For those who need them, we have to transition to electric vehicles to a certain extent. The extent is arguable. A total of 20% of our national emissions are associated with driving. A lot of emissions are associated with electric vehicles as well as with fossil fuel vehicles. We really need to not lean on them as a solution. We need a plan for cars. We really need to look at how much car parking we provide. We must also look at traffic management and the prioritisation of certain modes.

I do not know whether any of our guests are with Dublin City Council, but it has done tremendous work in prioritising the more sustainable modes. It seems we need to go a lot further in this regard. We need to change our thinking. Historically, it has been that we need to keep traffic flowing and solve congestion. In the past there may have been an economic benefit to this. Certainly, it was felt this was a very important objective. This needs to fundamentally change if we agree that cars, whether they are electric vehicles or fossil fuel vehicles, are a problem. What is the thinking in the system with regard to traffic management and the prioritisation of active and sustainable modes of transport over the private car? I am speaking from experience. The local authority I came through is certainly on a journey. Some really good work has been done in recent years but it seems there is still a long way to go. We are still falling back on the old conventional thinking that we need to get cars through our cities. When we think like this decisions on bus lanes, cycle lanes and wider footpaths become much more difficult. I do not know whether the witnesses want to comment on this observation.

Mr. Paddy Mahon

We are on that journey with the active travel programme I mentioned earlier and the interaction between local authorities the NTA. Every city and county council has resources in place, and they are beginning to put together active travel programmes. This is a sign of our commitment. Some of the biggest challenges we will face over the coming months and years will be delivering on the ambition we have with regard to having more suitable town and city centres for pedestrians and people who want to come into our towns and cities and engage and gradually removing cars from those centres. This depends on the situation and the level of alternative access to our towns and cities. There is definitely a strategy to make our towns and cities much more attractive and safer for the people who want to come in and use them. We have begun this journey. Some parts of the country are ahead of others. Our engagement with the NTA and the Department of Transport has put in place resources to be followed by sustainable transport plans for all of our major towns and cities.

We need to look at our villages as well. We need to look at safe routes to school schemes and at how our children get to school. Most of the traffic generated in our towns, villages and cities around the country, and many of the headaches and issues around it, relate to how our children go to school. We need to look at that. That is not just a matter of changing the infrastructure. This is a matter of changing culture and changing people's minds. As I said earlier, we are beginning that journey. It is a significant one. We will need clear plans and a clear vision and buy-in from all our communities, businesses and enterprises, if we are to begin to demonstrate that taking away car parking spaces and replacing them with outdoor dining and outdoor public ground spaces is to be of benefit to their businesses and not a hindrance to doing business in towns and city centres.

Mr. Liam Bergin

In terms of active travel in Dublin City Council, we are currently trying to find accommodation for 50 staff to work on this area. It is a priority for Dublin city. We have an executive manager-director who has been appointed solely to lead that. This is to create the critical mass in Dublin City Council, both from a resource point of view and from a strategic focus point of view, to allow us to deliver on it. I think one of the unintended consequences of Covid-19 was to allow us to bring to market a number of solutions in Dublin that demonstrated they could work without having to convince people in theory that they worked. We have by accident, and by design now, found ourselves in a position where active travel is demonstrable on the ground in Dublin. The benefits of it are clear.

In terms of EV charging, that follows behind that in this model shift. We do not want different types of traffic. We want less traffic in relation to it. That said, we are on a path in relation to our EV charging which fits in that broader context. Having the active travel piece first allows us then to slot another jigsaw piece into that, but informed by that modal-shift-first policy. A regional EV charging strategy is being launched on 13 July. The focus will be that this is not the solution but a consequence of the modal shift. It will not, therefore, be all things to all people. It is a consequence of the active travel.

Chairman

It seems like the demand management piece and the political challenge around that and how we use space on our streets and our roads is going to be hugely challenging. I do not think we have a choice here. So many of our streets are limited in width. We see it on Capel Street and we see it on the quays. I come up every Tuesday morning and I cycle from Heuston Station to Leinster House and the change is incredible. It may be by accident, because Dublin City Council has been trying to put in some segregated infrastructure for ten years, but it seized the moment when Covid-19 came along. It is there now and proven. I see the number of cyclists who are using it. While I am not suggesting we should have another pandemic, I pay tribute to Dublin City Council and other local authorities on the work, including my own in Limerick. They have done some very good work and they took that chance. We need to see a lot more of that reallocation of road space and a lot more thinking around parking, removing parking and, as Mr. Mahon said, getting the cars out of our towns and our villages and reducing the net total of private vehicles in the system.

I thank the witnesses for those answers. I have interrogated them for long enough so we will finish up. I thank them sincerely for coming in and for their time and contributions and the hard work they do in the various offices at local level. So much of climate action is going to be channelled through them and I certainly wish them well.

Central government and the Oireachtas generally want this to work. It is important we hear those calls.

The calls for resources are timely. That is a strong message. We will certainly relay it back. I thank all the contributors.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.40 p.m. until 2.15 p.m. on Thursday, 2 June 2022.