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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Dec 2003

Vol. 1 No. 19

Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association: Presentation.

I welcome Mr. Thomas Cooke and Mr. Paul Brandon from the ICMSA. We will hear first from our witness and then take questions from members of the joint committee. Before commencing the presentation I draw witnesses attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Thomas Cooke

I thank you, Chairman, and the committee for the invitation to make a presentation. Our deputation consists of Mr. Lorcan McCabe, chairman of our environment committee, Mr. Paul Brandon provides the secretariat for my own rural development committee and the environment committee and Mr. Grattan Healy is an energy adviser to the ICMSA and is also a member of our wind farmers' co-operative. I am also the chairman of the Irish Windfarmers Co-operative and we have an interest in both camps, being members of a rural community who are also interested in developing wind energy on a community model.

We were concerned about the Derrybrien issue. It clearly gave a very negative impression of the wind industry. Thankfully, it is an isolated issue, although a serious one for the Derrybrien area. Many questions have been posed today. We have a document which is available to members of the committee and which goes through five recommendations. As we are conscious of time, I will take a shortcut through them.

Wind farms have the potential to be of huge benefit to the rural economy. Unfortunately, the type of development which has taken place in Ireland to date has not shown that. In fact, one of the reasons a wind farm was proposed for Derrybrien can be directly linked to the Government policy which supports renewable energy, that is, supporting renewable energy at least cost to the consumer. I do not know if the citizens of Derrybrien would agree that the siting of the local wind farm was a least cost solution. As was outlined by the previous presentation, the lowest price wins the contract and those who propose the lowest price build the wind farm. That tends to lead to very large developments in very windy areas. The economics of such developments are better than those of small scale developments but economics only tell half the story. There are, clearly, other issues to be addressed. There is huge potential for the development of wind energy on ordinary agricultural land in Ireland without ever going near areas that are in any way sensitive from a planning or environmental point of view. The policy driver that has given rise to the wind farm needs to be questioned. We make recommendations in our proposal for facilitating smaller scale developments.

The Derrybrien planning issue must be sorted out. Derrybrien is not fighting an anti-wind campaign but an anti-development campaign. The issue might have been forestry or anything else. We are of the opinion that guidelines were ignored and certain rules broken. Galway County Council's reputation comes out of this episode quite well because it identified the problem at an early stage and this was clearly pointed out in a number of reports. Indeed, the planning officer refused permission and stated this very clearly. One must ask how An Bord Pleanála came to a different view. Both bodies cannot be correct. One is wrong and one is right. There is clearly a question of accountability. The citizens of Derrybrien or anywhere else cannot pick up the pieces when someone else falls down on the job.

Restitution must be made. Compensation is not the correct word. It has already been made clear that compensation is not an issue. There must be restitution for the damage done. This must be addressed.

The code of practice must be developed. There are vulnerable sites which must be looked at again. It is not adequate that existing rules and regulations be applied to what has happened. There are sensitive areas which must be looked at. The question of environmental impact assessments impacts on us. It may not be correct to say that the environmental impact assessment was at fault in this case. The people who assessed the environmental impact assessment can be questioned. The environmental impact assessment was determined to be inadequate and, therefore, a judgment was passed on it. However, someone overruled that judgment.

Our concern is not with this specific issue but with the matter in general. It is up to the applicant to employ someone to carry out this assessment on his behalf. The general view is that if you pay people they will tell you what you want to hear.

Mr. Cooke

We have experience of employing independent consultants to conduct environmental impact assessments. Such assessments also go through a process of assessment. The EPA is responsible for assessing the quality of environmental impact assessments. If the quality of the work of the person conducting such an assessment is questioned then his or her credibility is also questionable. These matters could be addressed within existing structures.

Small scale wind developers face enormous problems when trying to obtain planning permissions. The cost of an environmental impact assessment for a small scale farm is the same as that for a large scale farm especially when dealing with sensitive issues such as this. We would like the Government to give priority to smaller scale developments on land which is less sensitive. That would clearly assist us in maximising our wind energy without impacting negatively on the environment.

The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, carried out a review of the SAC process and stated that SACs and SPA designations cannot be used on their own as a reason to deny planning permission. That does not mean one can drive all over policy. We are very sensitive to such issues. Deputy Higgins made the important point that it is acknowledged that forestry development has a negative impact on the environment. That is something I missed.

The real benefit to the rural community will come in smaller scale locally owned wind farms. A project on land owned by Coillte and developed by the ESB has no local benefits. That is the reason such developments have a negative impact on the acceptability of wind energy. The recent report published by Sustainable Energy Ireland shows more than 80% of the community support wind energy. That is in danger of being undermined if large scale developments are not balanced by locally owned developments. We are strongly of the opinion that small scale developments have an important place, not just economically and socially but in a practical sense, in the planning process in supporting renewable energy.

On ICMSA policy, the current system in AER does not support small scale developments. The last round of AER put large scale developers, including the ESB, in direct competition with genuine small scale developments. That has caused an enormous lack of confidence in going forward with our plans. Our members, farm organisations and general rural community people, have spent more than €4 million developing small scale projects to their current stage which permits them to bid for contracts. The BES has been resuscitated which is a great boost for our organisations but the guillotine has been brought down on us by the ESB national grid which stated that the Irish wind contained enough wind energy. We had one day in the sun in terms of hope for the future but we are now facing a future of darkness given the ESB's domination of policy making in the current system.

We propose that priority be given to upgrading the national grid to facilitate the development of smaller scale wind energy. My colleague, Mr. Lorcan McCabe, will update the committee on further points. Some members have recommended there be an inquiry in this area. We would be willing to participate in such an inquiry and will supply the committee with any information we have gathered in that regard. We have gathered a substantial amount of information on the Derrybrien incident. A question was asked about the size of the bond requested. The sum involved is €350,000 for a decommissioning bond plus access to the equipment, if the development was scrapped, to the value of €500,000. The other bond amounts to approximately €150,000.

Mr. Lorcan McCabe

I will be brief. I welcome the comments of the Chairman of the Derrybrien group, Mr. Martin Collins, that he is not anti-wind. It is great that he can say that given this whole process is causing great problems albeit enormous mistakes were made in planning procedures. However, I will not comment further on that. We must ensure the wind industry is not tarnished by this incident. There is huge potential for small local co-operative groups involving one or, perhaps, ten farmers to create employment and wealth and security of our energy of which we have little. Much of our energy is imported. I welcome Mr. Collins' comment that this is not a matter of wind versus the environment. Enormous mistakes were made in this area and we would like to ensure they are not used as a yardstick in every other case.

The incident referred to is an isolated one and we should leave it at that. In most cases, on agricultural land, the wind speed is not as good and structures should be put in place to ensure farmers can erect one or two turbines thereby creating local employment and ensuring the devastating effects such as happened do not occur again. Local farmers and local people should be consulted as they know what they are talking about.

I thank the ICMSA for its presentation and welcome them to the meeting. I am intrigued to hear the ICMSA has developed such policies and research into wind farming. I thought the ICMSA was representative of the Irish Creamery and Milk Suppliers Association. What is the organisation's line on wind farming?

Pragmatism.

I would like to hear the delegation's views on how it perceives the ESB's function in terms the production of power by wind energy. In Derrybrien the ESB subsidiary, Hibernian Wind Power, is operating on this site. That is not good for local areas or small groups with small scale wind farms. Does the ICMSA find itself blocked by the ESB and its capacity to create big companies?

Everybody agrees the Derrybrien incident was the result of the planning process. I support wind farms and am aware some have operated successfully in Galway. I know a colleague of Deputy McCormack's, Councillor Pól Ó Foighíl successfully operates one in a flat area.

Page 4 of the ICMSA document points out that landslides, bogslides and mud slides are regularly occurring natural events, although the development of the Derrybrien farm had an effect on the area concerned. I am aware of two such landslides. How many farm co-operatives are seeking to get involved in wind farming? Did the ICMSA get involved because it is no longer possible to make money from dairy farming? Perhaps the delegation could elaborate on those points.

Mr. Cooke

The first and last questions are linked and related to why the ICMSA has become involved in wind farming. We have identified the challenges for the future to rural communities. There is no doubt but that we will face an energy crisis in the future. Within 100 years we will be 100% renewable energy sufficient. If not, we will return to living in caves. There is no doubt that we cannot depend on unreliable sources of fossil fuels coming from parts of the former Soviet Union or the Persian Gulf. We are facing an enormous challenge in trying to transfer ownership to the citizens in the rural community. Nevertheless, it is worth fighting for. Without a doubt, I regard rural communities as potential benefactors of renewable energy. The wind is a rural resource in the main, as is biomass and all the other residues that come from forestry. Wind and biomass energy can be provided and supplied within the rural communities. It should be considered especially because agricultural incomes are falling and we cannot compete with third countries. For example, our beef industry cannot compete with the beef industry in cutaway Brazilian jungles. We have to survive and this is why we are fighting.

The question of the ESB is related to this matter. The ESB and its many tentacles are probably the biggest impediment to the development of independent and small scale wind energy and renewable energy in Ireland. The ESB influences all policy making because it is the dominant player in the market. Speaking with my Meitheal na Gaoithe or wind farmers' co-operative hat, I and my colleagues have lodged an official complaint with the Competition Authority about the ESB's practices in this area. There is no doubt that a question has to be answered regarding the rules under which it was allowed to compete with private developers.

That is outside our remit.

Mr. Cooke

If the Government were more supportive of wind energy, it would have a huge social benefit.

Landslides have been recorded in other types of development. Coillte, for example, has a policy on how roadways should be built in sensitive areas. A landslide was associated with the building of a roadway in Tipperary, thus demonstrating that the problem is not only associated with wind energy. If one talks to anybody in the peatland area, he will state that bog slides have occurred in the Slieve Bloom mountains without any mechanical or artificial triggers. Landslides have happened naturally but if one interferes with the land in question they will probably be triggered quicker than they normally would be. It is interesting that the predecessors of the current citizens of Derrybrien never cut turf on the bog in question because it was so wet, but turf was cut on many other hills which had drier bogs. There were issues identified in the planning process that we believe were not picked up on at a higher level.

On the question of how many are involved in the development of small scale wind farms, we have 200 members throughout the country, 60 or 70 of whom have applied for AER contracts.

How are the projects funded? Does Mr. Cooke's organisation get involved in fund raising?

Mr. Cooke

Most of those involved are groups of farmers or individuals in rural communities who have come together and funded the high risk end, namely, the planning end. It costs between approximately €50,000 and €100,000 to fund the planning application end. An extraordinarily high risk is involved.

A vote has been called in the House so we will have to bring our deliberations to a conclusion. I thank Mr. Cooke and his colleagues for making a presentation and for answering questions. I apologise for affording them such little time. Just as we will do in respect of the Derrybrien Landslide Action Group, we will discuss the issues raised and decide how we should proceed as a committee. This is what we will do at our next meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.35 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 18 December 2003.
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