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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Sep 2005

Illegal Dumping: Presentations.

Roadstone Dublin Limited has written expressing its reluctance to appear before the joint committee regarding illegal dumping in County Wicklow. Members will see its grounds in the letter circulated. The most recent correspondence from Roadstone Dublin Limited on the issue is dated 12 September 2005 and states:

We note the decision of the Committee as outlined and we wish to inform you that Roadstone Dublin Limited will be unable to attend on the specific date of September 14th, for the reasons outlined in our previous correspondence of September 2nd.

We look forward to coming before the Committee again in the near future and at a time which would permit a constructive engagement, free of the current restrictions.

We would appreciate if our correspondence on this matter be read into the record, should the meeting proceed as scheduled.

There is one other issue that arises, after which I will take speakers on the matter of Roadstone's correspondence. The Health Service Executive replaced the Eastern Regional Health Authority and there was some difficulty in contacting the relevant person in the new organisation. As a result, the executive is not represented at the meeting. However, we will certainly invite its representatives to come before us at a later stage. Are there any comments?

I wrote to the committee some months ago requesting that Roadstone, An Taisce and Wicklow County Council come before it as a follow-up to the meeting of February or March 2003 in order to ascertain the current difficulties. I understand the situation has not really progressed. I deeply regret the fact that Roadstone has chosen not to appear before the committee; it should have done so, since such an appearance would have been of benefit to all concerned, including the company. I ask Roadstone to reconsider its position. I do not know when the adjudication on its licence application will be finalised but it should use the first available opportunity to attend a meeting of the committee. It is almost as if the company is treating the committee, and the issue of illegal dumping, with a degree of disdain.

The committee's first examination of this issue took place on 5 February 2003 following a request I made that it examine illegal dumping in County Wicklow, with particular reference to information then coming to light regarding the Roadstone site at Blessington. However, although representatives of Roadstone were present at that meeting and said as much as they were willing to say, they provided the committee with very little information about what was happening. There was a great deal of pleading the fifth amendment, or whatever this committee's equivalent might be, on that occasion. For example, its representatives stated, "Unfortunately, the timing of this meeting is somewhat premature for CRH in relation to its lands in Blessington." They went on to explain that they had only recently found out about the problem, that it was terrible and that their investigation would take some time. Until it was complete, they said that they could not say very much. They did not have much to say to us at all. It is particularly disappointing that two and a half years later the company cannot come before the committee. I appreciate that there may be issues relating to its dealings with the EPA — licences awaited and applications made — in respect of which it might wish to avoid commenting specifically. I am sure the committee could facilitate it in this.

After two and a half years, Roadstone has had plenty of time to root around the site in Blessington, find out what is there, who put it there and who is responsible and indicate what the company has done about the waste and why no one saw it being dumped. Estimates of the dumping range from 100,000 tonnes to 150,000 tonnes, depending on whom one believes. That works out at a load of illegal material being dumped in Blessington at least every two hours if one accepts the figure of 100,000 tonnes and every single hour if one takes the figure of 200,000 tonnes. That was going on every day for four or five years and yet no one saw it. Two and a half years after our first meeting with its representatives, the company has not informed the committee as to what was going on.

The company has said that it is unwilling to come before the committee because of the EPA. In such circumstances, we must ask the question "How long is a piece of string?" The committee should exercise its discretion, if not today then at a future date, to decide that it wishes to have representatives of the company back before it to answer questions. We cannot agree to be strung along. The current reason for CRH's non-appearance relates to the EPA licence but if there is a prosecution, there will be another reason. It appears to me that we are being strung along and we should not allow that. We should decide instead, in our own good time, to bring the company before us to answer our straightforward questions on behalf of the public, members of which are concerned.

It is outrageous that representatives of Cement Roadstone Holdings, CRH, are not appearing before the committee today. All we want are the facts and I wonder what the company fears. We know that tens of thousands — if not hundreds of thousands — of tonnes of waste were found on the company's land. We want to know how it appeared there and how CRH seemed not to know about it until told. That comment comes from one of the largest companies on the island. It is certainly treating this committee with contempt and I expect better from it.

I congratulate the Chairman on his speedy response, about which I read in today's newspaper, to CRH's arrogant refusal to come before the committee. I echo the words of Deputies Cuffe and Gilmore. This company has bullied its way through the Irish corporate and political world for a long period. It has been well documented that it appears to regard its quasi-monopolistic status as placing it above the law.

It is obvious that CRH is avoiding accountability for its deeply culpable behaviour. It is not enough for members to express disappointment at its failure to appear before the Joint Committee on Environment and Local Government, while extending the company an invitation to come before it in the future. As Deputy Gilmore stated — I was present when CRH personnel appeared before the joint committee in February 2003 — they might as well not have bothered their barney because they made a great virtue of being present but continually refused to answer questions on the grounds of an ongoing investigation. They had a legal team to beat the band surrounding them, the members of which were threatening members of this committee and warning them to be careful of what they said. As both previous speakers said, this saga is to provide an arrogant company such as CRH with a fig leaf of an excuse not to come before the committee on each occasion until the licence issue is dealt with.

I do not agree with Deputy Gilmore that the company should be allowed to come in and not answer questions about the licence. I do not think that is a good enough excuse. We could certainly allow its representatives that but then the issue of appealing the licence, investigations, court cases, papers with the Director of Public Prosecutions and so on will be raised and they will have every excuse known to man ready for not coming before the committee. I suggest that the joint committee reply in the strongest possible terms and if CRH, which is a major international company with a reputation about which it is very sensitive, refuses to come before it, we should seek statutory powers to bring its personnel before the committee if they will not appear voluntarily.

On a point of information — I raised this at the meeting in February 2003 — when was Wicklow County Council informed of the activities of CRH?

The personnel from Wicklow County Council will be in a better position to answer that question.

It is important that we know the answer. The issue of illegal dumping is in the public domain. It was reported that the matter was raised in the council chamber as far back as 1996. Perhaps the members of the joint committee would be afforded the opportunity to see the minutes of that meeting. That would be important.

I share the concern expressed by previous speakers. It is totally unacceptable that CRH is refusing to attend this meeting. How could the presentation of the facts by CRH personnel prejudice its application to the Environmental Protection Agency? I am concerned that the excuse CRH is offering could be used by any organisation or company, which would simply lodge an application with the EPA — or a planning application with a local authority — as a method of giving it what has been accurately described as a fig leaf of cover to avoid coming before the committee. That is totally unacceptable. I hope we will revert to CRH in the strongest possible terms to ensure that it is brought before us to answer these questions. If a fledgling business or a community group behaved in this way, I am sure the Joint Committee on the Environment and Local Government would be very hard on them and we should be at least as hard if not harder on this multinational company, which is virtually giving us the fingers.

I share the views expressed by members. One would expect a company of the stature of CRH should at least have come before the committee today. Illegal dumping is one of the most serious issues to be raised at this committee.

It is clearly evident that a joint committee does not have the powers it should have. The CRH response has given the two fingers to democracy and to the vehicle of governance. I share the view of Senator Ross that we should seek statutory powers to compel people to appear before the committee. While I accept that it would not apply in every situation, I support the call for statutory powers to compel witnesses to appear before the committee on issues affecting public health and safety. Otherwise the committee will only be a talking shop. I demand that CRH be directed to come before the committee and if it refuses, let us test out the possibility of seeking statutory powers to ensure that it does appear.

As members will be aware, the joint committee does not have powers of compellability but a procedure can be initiated whereby the Dáil, in plenary session, could consider the matter. There is, however, a process to be followed and we will certainly look into what is involved in that regard. In the meantime, I propose that the joint committee write a strong letter to the company expressing the views of members present and demanding that it appear before the committee at the earliest possible opportunity.

On a point of order, may we initiate the process to which the Chairman referred now, rather than look into doing so? I propose that the joint committee initiate the process of seeking the power of compellability to bring CRH before it. This is a power struggle. What is happening is that CRH is flexing its muscles and telling the members to go and jump in the lake. If the joint committee does not bring it in, the company will have seen us off and shown that it is more powerful than members. CRH is powerful.

Other companies will follow a similar line.

We must prepare a submission which can be initiated if members wish.

Can we do it now?

Is that agreed? Agreed. It is the wish of the committee that we initiate the procedure to compel these witnesses to appear before it.

An invitation to appear before the committee should be sent to CRH, at the same time making it aware of what the committee proposes. Clearly, if it should decide to come before us, we should be prepared to meet its personnel.

The clerk will work on that immediately.

I welcome the representatives of An Taisce and Wicklow County Council to our meeting dealing with the issue of illegal dumping in County Wicklow. Before the presentations commence, I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee enjoy absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Mr. Corcoran and ask him to make his presentation.

Mr. Frank Corcoran

I appeared before the Joint Committee on Environment and Local Government in February 2003, when I gave evidence on this issue. I stated then that when Wicklow County Council was carrying out its investigation in December 2002 to January 2003, unlike other investigations, the press was not allowed to see what was there and was not allowed to take pictures. This was unlike what happened at the Whitestown dump, when the press was brought in to see it. This concerned me to such an extent that I had pictures taken of the area when investigations were taking place so that I could see the situation and have a reference when giving evidence to the committee and to the European Commissioner, to whom An Taisce had made a proposal. I had spoken to his predecessor, Margot Wallström, about this matter when she visited Ireland and she was interested in receiving a final report from An Taisce in respect of it.

When I came before the committee in February 2003, I showed members a picture of foundations for a housing estate — Woodleigh — which at that time had not yet been built but which is now completed. I stated that it was in breach of guidelines from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to allow a housing estate within 250 metres of a dump. The reason for this is that landfill dumps produce particular gases, most notably methane, which are dangerous when in proximity to houses. Members may be aware that Kildare County Council had to evacuate houses beside its dump because methane gas had seeped into the houses. According to the EPA, methane gas may be explosive in mixes of between 5% and 15% and can cause adverse health effects in less concentrated forms. It is for this important reason that housing should not be built in proximity to dumps.

The housing estate to which I refer had planning permission and quite legitimately could proceed, which raised the question of removing the dump. I asked Wicklow County Council to order the immediate removal of that dump. It was important that it be removed before the residents who bought houses, some of them off the plans, moved into the houses because the council would then be in breach of Department guidelines. Wicklow County Council chose not to do that but to go down an entirely different route. It decided it would serve a section 55 notice on Roadstone under the Waste Management Act 1996, directing it to build a landfill on top of the drinking water aquifer for Blessington. The latter is a regionally important aquifer. Under Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government guidelines, one cannot, under any circumstances, build a dump or residual landfill on top of a regionally important aquifer. However, that is what Wicklow County Council chose to do instead of doing the obvious, which I asked it to do, namely, to order the immediate removal of the waste under section 55 of the Act to an existing licensed facility, of which several were available to take it.

This was an extraordinary course of action for the county council to take. In July of this year, the EPA inspector stated that the county council's proposal represented a threat to the drinking water of Blessington town, which extracts water directly from the aquifer — sometimes mixed with river water — for drinking. Moreover, planning permission was granted to Cookhill Limited for a large development of over 700 houses plus a hotel and many business premises, with the former expected to extract its water directly on the site, which is beside the Roadstone lands. The hydrology report for Cookhill shows that it sourced the water from Dillonstown and Deerpark, which are on Roadstone's lands, and Newpaddocks, which are the sites of three of the illegal dumps, according to Roadstone's document. The Cookhill development received planning permission to sink wells to supply its development and to source water from Roadstone land. Although that permission was already granted, the county manager should have removed it because not only are the Woodleigh residents directly exposed to the gases but so also are those at the Cookhill development of over 700 houses.

Cookhill Limited is not using the well. In a recent discussion with the company, I told its officials it could not supply its residents from that well because the company knew it was contaminated. When they said they did not know it was contaminated, I told them to check with the county council because an environmental consultant's report sent in as a result of the current application states that the well is contaminated with leachate from the dump and refers to various types of heavy metal contamination. While I will not give the details of the report, if members wish I can list the exact detail of the contamination in the Cookhill well. Despite the report, Cookhill Limited as recently as one month ago stated it had not been informed of the contamination and knew nothing about it.

This is extraordinary. Two major housing developments are now threatened by this problem. However, instead of taking the obvious course of action, Wicklow County Council did the opposite. The county council began detailed physical surveys on the ground in earnest in December 2002. The county manager stated as recently as last Monday that the council went in as a result of rumours of dumping, thereby downgrading the minutes of the county council meeting of 1996 to "rumours". The minutes of the 1996 meeting note that the council was asked whether it could confirm that it was investigating the creation of a private refuse dump, at a disused gravel quarry at Blessington, which was taking Dublin refuse on contract. The meeting was advised that the council was not aware of any private refuse dump but that if the problem was ongoing, it would be investigated. In 1997, the matter was again raised at a county council meeting and minuted.

Each time the matter was raised, a story appeared on the front page of the Wicklow People. Therefore, everybody in Blessington knew the dumping was going on. The local residents asked their local representative to bring it to the attention of the council because while they could not go poking around on private land, the council could do so. The local representative raised the matter at a meeting, which was minuted. Despite this, however, when the matter was brought to the attention of the county manager at a council meeting, he stated that it was only a rumour. At no stage did it lead to a substantial physical investigation on the ground by Wicklow County Council. The matter was raised again at a council meeting in 1998. The local councillor stated that the waste was coming in from the Dublin area in dozens of private vehicles. He referred to the commitment that none would be allowed to come in. The county manager stated that this was a totally inaccurate statement and dismissed it out of hand. The matter was again raised in 1999 and dismissed out of hand.

At approximately the same time, a Mrs. Bailey, a resident living across the road from the Whitestown dump, where 300,000 tonnes of hazardous waste, including hospital waste, was dumped, informed Wicklow County Council on numerous occasions by telephone and letter of the dumping and of the registration numbers of trucks visiting the site. The council did nothing about this at the time and later said it had lost the relevant file. When the media contacted Wicklow County Council, it denied the existence of Mrs. Bailey's letters. When she produced receipts for the letters, it admitted the letters were received but claimed the file was lost. This behaviour did not inspire confidence among local residents. Not only that, but the county council dumped material in both Whitestown dump and on Roadstone's lands. In the case of Whitestown, it sent an engineer to survey the dimensions and soil type of the dump because it had a proposal to buy the dump for itself. While that survey was undertaken by the council and it had received letters from a neighbouring resident detailing the registration numbers of trucks carrying out dumping at the site, it stated it did not know dumping was going on.

The problem became serious in 2002 when a new investigator was brought in by Wicklow County Council. She began finding information that was not evident before, including the location of the Coolamadra, Whitestown, Stephenson's and Roadstone dumps. The problem for the county council at that stage was that since it had dumped at these sites, it was compromised when it went to deal with the dump operators. One can imagine the situation that would arise if somebody who had undertaken an activity then tried to prosecute another person for the same activity. The person threatened with prosecution would threaten to reveal that information if taken to court. The county council is compromised in its dealings with Roadstone and with regard to the other dumps because it did not act on the information given to it on the dumps. When it received details of the dumps, instead of ordering them to be removed immediately in order that they would not present a threat to Woodleigh, Cookhill and the rest of the town, the county council ordered CRH to build a landfill on the drinking water aquifer without planning permission. It used an existing loophole in the law, in which the committee will undoubtedly be interested. Some Blessington residents circulated a petition for the removal of the dumps, and wanted me to ask the Minister to do something about ordering the county council to deal properly with the matter. They wanted him to issue a notice under the Waste Management Act directly affecting this land, but I responded that he could only issue a section 60 notice in general terms. I, therefore, composed a letter to the Minister asking him to use his power to issue orders under section 60 of the Act which would close the loophole and stop dumps being built without planning permission. He issued a section 60 notice but did not deal with that issue. Therefore, there is still a loophole.

We also asked the Minister to appoint an inspector from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to oversee the investigation because the county council is compromised in its handling of the matter and is in a weak position. The Department, on the other hand, is not.

We pointed out that CRH had applied to remediate waste on three of its small dumps, but the county council excavated and found waste in eight separate areas. Nothing was done about the other five, which we find unacceptable. We also find it unacceptable that the investigator was prematurely pulled out after a very short period and that there was no further physical investigation or drilling down on the remainder of the sites. We wanted an inspector to be appointed by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to oversee and report on the county council's dumping, as well as to order an investigation of the five other sites, which the county council has looked at, in order to quantify the amount of waste in them. As it stands, CRH is proposing to do nothing about them and allow waste to leach into our drinking water. The inspector could also order the continued investigation of the site.

As we pointed out to the Minister, this poses absolutely no risk to the taxpayer because, under existing legislation, the cost of such an investigation can be charged against the company or landowner involved. In this case, the company is worth €10 billion and made €1 billion profit last year. In this way, there is no risk whatsoever to the Exchequer in carrying out a proper investigation.

The Minister asked why we did not go to the Office of Environmental Enforcement. I had a meeting with that office and asked why it told landowners they could site a dump on lands where illegal dumpers had already built a dump because the site selection was made by criminals, and in certain instances by organised crime. As illegal dumping is a criminal activity, I can use such terms. Nobody in their right mind would select Whitestown, a European-designated special area of conservation, because it is a spawning ground for salmon on the Carrigower river and a habitat for lamprey, pearl mussel and otters, yet the company which bought the site deemed it suitable. It applied for planning permission, which was opposed by Wicklow County Council which did not want any new waste to be brought in. The company wanted to bring in an extra 1.8 million tonnes of waste. The site selection of a SAC was, therefore, carried out by criminals.

The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government changed the boundaries of the SAC during the course of the appeal but we could not get copies of the scientific evidence that allowed it to do so. This is very dubious and we are making a complaint regarding the change of a European-designated SAC boundary without scientific reports. The change facilitated the applicant in respect of the landfill in Whitestown. Fortunately An Bord Pleanála turned down the application two weeks ago on the grounds that it would still affect the SAC, notwithstanding the boundary being changed, as well as the aquifer. It is not a regionally important aquifer, does not supply drinking water to a large population and is not part of the Poulaphouca reservoir. Nevertheless, it is an aquifer. The aquifer in Blessington is far more vital and regionally important.

Whitestown is an example of site selection by criminals. If someone said they wanted to build a dump in County Wicklow, a competent consultant would first check the location of any regionally important aquifers. The most important aquifer in County Wicklow is located in the entire Blessington area. It is regionally important because it supplies drinking water to Blessington. It was also supposed to supply drinking water to the 700 houses, although it cannot do so now because residents should not be situated on a contaminated well. Any consultant would exclude such a site. However, Wicklow County Council directed CRH to construct a landfill for residual waste, including organic material which would produce leachate, on top of a regionally important aquifer. That was a fundamental error.

This issue is vitally important. "Aquifer" is a strange word and is not used in general parlance, but everybody in Blessington knows what it means. They know it is where they get their drinking water and that it is contaminated. Last May, on the front page of the Wicklow People, the director of environmental services stated that there was no evidence whatsoever of any contamination of the aquifer. The county council claims that we are scaremongering. I used the new EU directive regarding access to information, which only became law in February this year, to request environmental documents from Wicklow County Council which it refused to give me. I did not ask for the name of a guilty person. As a result of its refusal I initiated legal proceedings against the council at European level for breach of the directive.

I also sent the same request to other State agencies and received a letter, dated 2003, from the director of environmental services to CRH. In this letter, the same person who publicly told the people of Blessington that there was no evidence of contamination of the aquifer stated that the risk assessment demonstrated that significant breaches of EPA guidelines regarding contamination of the aquifer had already taken place. The following contaminants had been noted in the groundwater beneath the site: heavy metals, notably barium, lead, manganese, iron and silver; a wide range of inorganic parameters, such as potassium sulfide and ammonia, which are all indicative of landfill leachate contamination; phenols, polyaromatic hydrocarbons, rated as carcinogens, which means that they are cancer causing agents; fuel-related hydrocarbons; and other organic compounds, notably DEHP group 2 carcinogens, yet the same person stated in Wicklow People that there was no evidence whatsoever of any contamination in the aquifer. For all of those reasons, people in Blessington have no faith in Wicklow County Council to handle this investigation.

CRH appealed the recommendation against the building of the landfill and the EPA is obliged to give its decision by 8 December. A new section 55 notice must then be issued. We do not want more delays during which leachate and gases will be produced while they mess around again. We want the Department to appoint an inspector to take charge and appoint consultants to conduct proper digs and decide what must be done to remove the waste. A Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government inspector would not be compromised and would be in a position to robustly ensure all this waste is legally removed.

I will make one final point. The State authorities stated they will not take criminal proceedings against CRH because it is a limited liability company and according to a House of Lords case in company law, one cannot take criminal proceedings against such a company. This is nonsense because the European Court of Justice judgment in the widely reported and important case of Van de Walle v. Texaco in September 2004 states that a company is criminally and civilly liable for waste on its land, whether it is aware of it or not. That case involved a company which did not operate the land itself as it was an independent contractor but the court found it was criminally liable. This contradicts what the Irish authorities have stated.

Although the inspector for the EPA recommended against the landfill, he stated that CRH overstated the amount of waste because it included some contaminated soil, which is not waste. The inspector did not refer to the Van de Walle case which specifically stated that contaminated soil is classified as waste. That is important. According to that European Court of Justice ruling contaminated soil is waste despite what the EPA stated. The EPA is correct to recommend against the landfill but wrong to underestimate the amount of waste there. I do not refer to all of the other waste there.

I wrote to the Office of Environmental Enforcement asking it to intervene and investigate the rest of the waste but it has refused to do so. As that office will not do so and the county council has not done so, the obvious thing to do is ask the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. If it does not do so, based on the recent European Court of Justice decision reported in today's newspapers, Europe will intervene directly. That would be to Ireland's shame. If an agency lets us down, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is a back up and we should use it.

I suggest we hear the submission from Wicklow County Council now.

Perhaps we could clear up some issues before that.

We have plenty of time. I suggest that we proceed with some questions and we can recall Mr. Corcoran if necessary.

I am not from County Wicklow but I am interested in this matter because we have had an issue in County Laois for many years. We have one landfill and came to prominence a number of years ago when the ESB wanted to dump asbestos in it.

I listened with interest to Mr. Corcoran's presentation and apparently An Taisce comes out on top with regard to all of the issues under discussion. From what I heard Mr. Corcoran certainly dumped on Wicklow County Council and I am not sure that should be the issue. I was of the belief that when the manager arrived in Wicklow he invited public representatives to list the issues that might affect them. I am initially of the view that no attempt was made to disregard illegal dumping because of that invitation.

As a rural councillor who has dealt with An Taisce, I am aware of the fact that it is "clued in" to planning and development legislation. Does Mr. Corcoran live in County Wicklow?

Mr. Corcoran

Yes.

Mr. Corcoran's organisation campaigned nationally on illegal dumping in Blessington. I cannot understand why he did not make an objection to the EPA when CRH made its application as he knew he could have done so under the legislation.

Mr. Corcoran

I did. I wrote to the Office of Environmental Enforcement. I told that office——

It is not a matter of telling. I am discussing——

Mr. Corcoran

CRH——

I listened with interest to Mr. Corcoran——

Mr. Corcoran

The Deputy states——

I am asking if Mr. Corcoran made an objection.

The Deputy should conclude his questions.

For that reason I find it peculiar. I also noted that An Taisce distributed leaflets making allegations on the Blessington issue on its own official paper signed by its chairman but as an organisation it did not make an objection to the EPA. Knowing how it operates——

Mr. Corcoran

I stated we did write to the Office of Environmental Enforcement.

I am asking about it and Mr. Corcoran might let me finish. I am interested that An Taisce treats an ordinary applicant for planning permission as it does and yet when something as significant as this arises it does not seem to have the same interest or energy.

Mr. Corcoran

We did.

If I am wrong, Mr. Corcoran can tell me so in a few minutes.

Mr. Corcoran

We wrote to the Office of Environmental Enforcement. Let me explain to Deputy Moloney——

I ask for the protection of the Chairman.

I will call on Mr. Corcoran afterwards and he will have adequate time to respond.

I understand An Taisce campaigned to have the works at Blessington subject to planning permission, yet it did not seek a ruling from the council or An Bord Pleanála on the issue. I find it peculiar that if the council was not prepared to become directly involved An Taisce could have done so but did not. As pointed out by Deputy Gilmore, throughout all of this it was obvious the dump was being used illegally. I would have thought that rather than rely on the county council somebody as concerned as Mr. Corcoran, who is involved in An Taisce and who lives in the area, would have seen his role as protecting the local citizens and would have taken up the issue.

Some time ago I read about the issue of an inspector which was raised by Mr. Corcoran today. Mr. Corcoran sought a departmental inspector to examine illegal dumping in Blessington. I was aware of the fact referred to by Mr. Corcoran that the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation carried out criminal investigations in County Wicklow, and criminal cases have been initiated. What is the attraction then of appointing an inspector? An Taisce believes that if a council fails in its duties, one has the right to refer the matter to the Office of Environmental Enforcement, which would have far more technical expertise available than would be typically available to an inspector from the Department. Why is there a need to call for an inspector when quite clearly an inspector's work could be thwarted?

I cannot refer to individual cases in which An Taisce's operation caused me grave concern. I do not see the same energy levels in An Taisce to get proactively involved in this case as it has in others but I see a significant level of energy used to criticise the local authority. I do not know the local area well. I remember the last time this issue was discussed an allegation was made that An Taisce directed CRH to build a dump on top of the aquifer. Mr. Corcoran makes reference——

Mr. Corcoran

It was the council. We would never do that.

Of course not. I will clarify that error. The council directed CRH to build, yet under section 55 of the Waste Management Act, CRH was directed to undertake remedial action on its lands in Blessington. It was not specifically to do what Mr. Corcoran was claiming.

Mr. Corcoran

It was.

I do not believe so.

Mr. Corcoran

I will read it out for the Deputy.

The delegate will have every chance to respond. An Taisce had every opportunity to bypass the local authority if it was felt it was not interested in, competent or aware of the happenings; it could have made observations, complaints and objections.

Mr. Corcoran

I am a member of the Blessington Forum, which employed consultants to conduct an investigationand produce a report. As a member of the forum, I stated that the report should be lodged with the EPA, which was done. At the same time, as a member of An Taisce, I wrote to the Office of Environmental Enforcement, stating that there was an application for three dumps to be removed. There are many more than three dumps, and it was the function of the Office of Environmental Enforcement to tell An Taisce the full extent of the dumps in order that it could properly prepare a submission to the council on the issue.

If this is not complied with, An Taisce has the option to contact the European Commission. An Taisce is entitled to information on the matter from the Office of Environmental Enforcement before it makes a submission, and the Commission was informed that a proper submission could not be made on the farcical application regarding three small dumps when the entire area is full of them. This is the reason An Taisce wrote to the Office of Environmental Enforcement. Despite claims to the contrary we did so in a proactive manner. This involves An Taisce dealing with the matter at that level and the level of the European Commission. We are being very proactive on the matter.

In a situation where there is an application for three small dumps and it is known that there are far more, it is important to flush out the rest. The manner in which I have done this gives me the option of going to the European Commission. If the Office of Environmental Enforcement does not give information on the dumps, An Taisce can legitimately go the European Commission stating that it is entitled to environmental information, and that a proper submission on the EPA application has not come about because of the lack of this information.

The EPA agreed that the dumps should be left where they are. A representative stated that this would be the easiest route. I stated that the sites were selected by criminals and that the sites should not be on aquifers and SACs. Roadstone, in its appeal, stated that it applied to construct a landfill as this was agreed with the EPA. The county manager stated recently that the section 55 notice to build the dump was a result of 12 months of negotiations and consultations with the EPA. In a situation where the EPA tells Roadstone to put the dump on an aquifer, should An Taisce put all its faith in the EPA or should it have the option to go to the Office of Environmental Enforcement in order to learn the full extent of the waste? This leaves the option of going beyond the EPA if required, as may now be the case. This approach is proactive and involves much more work for An Taisce.

An Taisce sees itself as proactive, and although I do not wish to be parochial, it certainly expends much energy on objecting to one-off housing in rural areas. Is there hard evidence of An Taisce objecting when Roadstone made an application to the EPA?

Mr. Corcoran

Yes, there is evidence of correspondence with the Office of Environmental Enforcement.

Is there evidence of correspondence with the EPA?

Mr. Corcoran

I explained to the Deputy——

I am asking if a copy of a letter to the EPA can be provided.

Mr. Corcoran

In order to answer that question I would have to repeat myself. I have already stated that because the EPA negotiated for a year with Roadstone——

Therefore, in other words, a letter cannot be provided.

Mr. Corcoran

If the EPA is allowing Roadstone to build a dump in a certain area and an application subsequently goes into the EPA, An Taisce wants the option of getting full information, which under European Union law must be furnished——

An Taisce did not object.

Mr. Corcoran

We objected to the Office of Environmental Enforcement.

It did not make an objection to the EPA. For a body that is so forceful on more minor issues, I am stunned by this.

We have both sides of that argument.

I did not intend to intervene in this at all. I am surprised at Deputy Moloney's line of apparently well-briefed questioning about what letters were written or not written by An Taisce, and to whom the letters were addressed. To be fair to Mr. Corcoran, he has had an interest in the subject of illegal dumping for a long time. The initial request to this committee to take an interest in illegal dumping in County Wicklow was on foot of an invitation I received from Mr. Corcoran to visit Blessington to view the problem there with him and meet with local people, including residents of the housing estates he referred to. That was around January 2003, and I subsequently made a request to the committee to take an interest in the issue.

The manner in which An Taisce conducted its business vis-à-vis the EPA is a distraction. This committee needs to address the serious information available about the extent of illegal dumping in County Wicklow, particularly on this site about which a hearing occurred more than two and a half years ago. I would like to hear from the relevant authorities on the progress that has been made on the issue. I agree with the suggestion made by Deputy Cuffe earlier that in order for progress to be made, it would be helpful to hear now from representatives from Wicklow County Council and pursue questioning afterwards.

Two or three speakers are offering and I must take those first.

I will be very brief. I thank Mr. Corcoran for his comprehensive overview of general activities in the Wicklow area over the course of the relevant years. On what does Mr. Corcoran believe the advice to leave the illegal dumps in place was based? Was this advice based on sound environmental considerations or, in his view, was it more to do with the cost of dealing with the issue or a fear of taking on the company involved?

Mr. Corcoran

It was based on a fear of taking on the company in question. Roadstone had quarried illegally in that area and the county council refused for a year to take action. Local people, a group with which I was involved, had to complete an action in the High Court to get an order to have the area restored. There was later a proposal to rezone the land, even though it was an archaeological area. Two High Court cases were taken, the first to prevent the rezoning from being forced through before councillors had all the relevant information, and another to force the county manager to give information to councillors which was being illegally witheld. The county council then illegally rezoned Glending Wood and an action was again taken in the High Court, overturning the illegal rezoning.

There are also extraordinary dealings between Roadstone and the county council directing the company to build a dump without planning permission. In the course of these dealings, planning permission was granted to quarry a further 32 acres of the area in question, which was appealed by An Taisce to An Bord Pleanála. At this stage Dublin City Council water engineers stated that the Roadstone activity was a serious risk to water supplied to half the Dublin region.

At the same time, an application was submitted by the county council to have a reservoir built on the Roadstone plant in the very area subject to a High Court injunction. This would allow Roadstone not to have to spend many millions of euro on reinstating the area, as the injunction stated that the area should be reinstated within six years. This is much evidence, with many High Court judgments, that shows there is something wrong in the relationship between the county council and that particular company. It was stated I had said falsely there was a direction to build a landfill. There is reference in section 55 of the county council notice to constructing an engineering facility for the deposition of residual waste. I must, therefore, contradict Deputy Moloney. The county council did order CRH to construct a landfill facility on the site.

I thank Mr. Corcoran for coming here. He has done much work on this issue.

The Fine Gael group and I, locally and nationally, want all the waste dumped in illegal sites removed. I refer not just to the CRH site. There are several others. I hope the EPA will bear in mind that the practice of site selection and of rewarding an illegal act by legitimising it sets a very bad precedent. I made a submission to the EPA regarding the CRH application and the application by Brownfield Restoration Limited at Whitestown requesting that it direct both to remove all waste from the site.

I hope everybody who has been involved in illegal dumping will go through our criminal justice system and face the full rigours of the law. However, I am concerned about corporate liability and the fact that the remoteness of the directors of a company may mean they cannot be held liable. Once our deliberations have been completed and CRH and the health board have come back in, this committee should make certain recommendations to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government as to how the issue might be dealt with. I sat here two and a half years ago. We may point the finger of blame at various bodies, but local people no longer have confidence in the system because there is still waste lying in the ground. I have seen the vents. Houses have been built and the people who came to live in them did not realise the landfill was there. Their concerns are quite legitimate. We can argue about what was or was not done, who did what and so on. The bottom line is that we want the waste removed as soon as possible, and we want those responsible dealt with under the criminal justice system.

I hope the EPA will not merely refuse the CRH application but will also direct it to remove all the waste from site. It will be up to CRH to sort out how to dispose of it. We have a difficulty in Wicklow in that I understand the South Dublin County Council development plan refers to exporting hundreds of thousands of tonnes of inert waste in the years ahead. Wicklow is on its doorstep and will be the recipient of it. I call on South Dublin County Council to re-examine its development plan with a view to keeping this inert material on its own sites because, irrespective of whether the sites are legal or illegal, the volume of truck movements is destroying the road and making life very difficult for commuters on one of the most dangerous roads in the country.

Wicklow County Council had difficulty when it was looking for a landfill site. It is an issue I will take up with the council. It employed MC O'Sullivan which picked numerous sites around the county. I understand it was never proposed that any of the recommended sites, which subsequently turned out to be illegal, be taken on board. It is important not to allow people who dumped illegally to dictate the location of sites.

I have a couple of specific points for Mr. Corcoran. If he cannot deal with them now, perhaps he could come back to us on them later. I missed what was stated in the letter from the director of services on contamination of the aquifer. Perhaps Mr. Corcoran could run that by me again.

Regarding the appointment of an inspector, I am aware that local Labour Party councillors have tabled a motion seeking the appointment of an inspector to examine this issue. Mr. Corcoran also called for it in his submission. It is something I support. Deputy Moloney pointed out that the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation was carrying out an investigation. That is fair enough. However, given that there is so much innuendo, misinformation and distrust among the public of officials and of politicians, inspectors should be appointed and should publish a report, and that should be extended to all sites east and west. We get the flak in west Wicklow but there are sites on the other side of Wicklow that are involved. They have been mentioned in the Wicklow County Council submission. I would welcome the appointment of an inspector, given the public's perception that those involved in wrongdoing have not been brought to justice.

Mr. Corcoran mentioned informing Wicklow County Council about illegal dumping in Blessington. He may not have the answer, but can he tell me the location of the disused gravel pit that was used for illegal dumping in 1997 or 1998?

Mr. Corcoran

It was the CRH site.

I am concerned that the changing of the SAC boundary in Whitestown might assist Brownfield Restoration Limited in its application for an EPA licence. The committee might, therefore, consider inviting in officials from Dúchas who previously dealt with this issue to deal with it.

The emphasis has rightly been on CRH because it is such a large and well known company. Irrespective of how big or small it is, it has a responsibility. I realise that, given that there is a large population beside the CRH site, it is probably the one that will cause the most heat. However, there are other sites in the county. There may not be as many people living in proximity to them but it is just as big a problem for them. We should not, therefore, get bogged down in relation to one site. I am not saying the CRH site does not deserve attention. It does and the waste should be removed particularly as CRH prides itself on its reputation and on protecting its reputation. I regret there is no representative from CRH here today. The company has done itself no favours in that regard.

Mr. Corcoran mentioned an amount of 300,000 tonnes. Does that refer only to Whitestown or to both sites?

Mr. Corcoran

That refers to Whitestown.

Mr. Corcoran mentioned three sites marked on the CRH map. He stated that eight areas were inspected. Is there concern that there may be more illegal waste than we believe there is at the moment? If so, how is it proposed to go about uncovering it? Does Mr. Corcoran believe that if CRH is directed to remove all the waste it will be uncovered in the removal process?

Mr. Corcoran

I will answer the last question first. If CRH is ordered by the EPA to remove the waste relating to its licence application it would be removing waste only from three small areas, leaving the other five untouched. It has no proposals to remove waste from the other five areas and would continue to contaminate our aquifer.

This goes beyond the eight areas inspected because the investigators were pulled out prematurely. Rather ludicrously, it was left to CRH to investigate itself. We checked with CRH and, not that one would have any confidence in any investigation it would do, it did not investigate and drill sites other than the ones the council was in. What needs to happen, therefore, is to have the waste removed from the three sites in respect of which CRH has applied and also from the other five sites. The investigator must then be sent to do a physical examination of all the sites to make sure the rest of the waste is quantified and removed in order that it ceases to cause a problem.

The letter from Wicklow County Council's director of environmental services was dated 23 October 2003 and addressed to CRH. I have read the last paragraph of it to the committee. It is clear from the letter that he is aware of very serious contamination of the aquifer by the dump on CRH's land, despite what he says to the contrary to the people of Blessington.

When Mr. Corcoran seeks an inspector, is that merely on the issue of CRH and the section 55 notice issued to it?

Mr. Corcoran

It is to investigate the council's role in dumping. Otherwise the council would be investigating itself. It is also necessary for an inspector to quantify the amount of waste in the other five sites, to organise the physical examination of the rest of the land and to have waste removed.

Mr. Corcoran said the council dumped at Whitestown as well. What did the county council dump on those sites?

Mr. Corcoran

I believe there was quite a lot more dumping at the Whitestown site than at the CRH site.

What type of dumping was it? I ask in the context that the council had a legal landfill at Rampere. Is Mr. Corcoran talking about domestic waste dumped at Whitestown?

Mr. Corcoran

It is material, rubble that council workers would pick up and bring in in quite substantial amounts. The amounts were very large in the case of Whitestown and smaller in the case of CRH but they said they had an agreement with CRH to do this dumping. That begs the question as to why they did not move against them if they knew the full extent of what was going on there.

I thank Mr. Corcoran for his submission. My question relates to the inspector. Given that everybody agrees this whole process has been dragged out over many years the addition of another layer of inspection strikes me as unusual. From our previous meetings we know the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation and the Environmental Protection Agency have their investigators. I presume the Office of Environmental Enforcement has investigators. An Taisce has its investigators and it strikes me that——

Mr. Corcoran

We do not have the powers to go in and investigate.

I mean privately or whatever. People are examining these issues and another layer on top of that will only delay the matter further. If it is crucial that action is taken as soon as possible, this represents another delay.

Mr. Corcoran

I understand the Senator's concerns in that regard but there is a reason we have to do this. I asked the Office of Environmental Enforcement and it refused. If the Office of Environmental Enforcement will not do it, somebody has to do it. If the council has not completed it, somebody has to do it.

Regarding the result of the investigation of the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation, the State authorities have said they will not take any criminal proceedings against CRH based on a House of Lords judgment which does not apply. It is the de Walle judgment that applies and states that criminal liability applies in cases like this. The National Bureau of Criminal Investigation is not doing anything about prosecuting the landowner in this case. It may take prosecutions against people who dump at the site but they are not taking prosecution against the landowner, which is contrary to the de Walle judgment.

There are charges or prosecutions pending as a result of the investigations.

Mr. Corcoran

They have not yet come before the courts. They may be in respect of people who put material on the site but they are not in regard to the landowner. The de Walle judgment states the landowner is responsible, both criminally and civilly, for waste on his or her land.

Another important aspect in terms of Ireland concerns the failures of any local authority, the Office of Environmental Enforcement or the EPA. If there is a failure at State level to do something about the matter and the European Union becomes involved, it will not take action against Wicklow County Council but against Ireland. There will be a judgment in the European Court in Luxembourg against Ireland and Ireland will have to pay for it. If substantial fines are imposed, as was the case against Greece and other countries, which can amount to hundreds of millions of euro, it is the poor taxpayer in Ireland who must pay. That is why it is vitally important that this matter is not left to be sorted out by the European Union. If Ireland is responsible, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government must take responsibility if it sees a failure by other agencies to properly investigate this matter. Ironically, that would be at no cost to the State because under existing legislation it can charge it to the State.

I did not get an opportunity to reply to Deputy Moloney's question on the reason we did not refer to An Bord Pleanála as to whether planning permission was needed. We did not refer to An Bord Pleanála because we know its answer would have to be that under section 55 it is possible to direct a landfill to be built without planning permission. That is the reason I referred to it as a loophole in the law. There is a loophole in the law and I would not go through a process with An Bord Pleanála when I know what would be its answer. That loophole should not exist and it is for the Legislature to plug it. A good function of this committee is that it can make recommendations to the Legislature.

An Taisce can presume the outcome of an An Bord Pleanála decision, unlike the ordinary Joe Soap. It can presume what the board will say on the matter.

Mr. Corcoran

The law is——

I am just lost on that particular issue. An Taisce appears to be judge and jury on everything, including planning issues, An Bord Pleanála——

Mr. Corcoran

No, I am not saying that.

——Wicklow County Council and so on.

Mr. Corcoran

If I am wrong, then the county council was wrong in directing CRH to build a dump without planning permission. If the county council is right, a loophole does exist. I am not saying it is wrong in that regard. There is a loophole.

There appears to be a loophole in what Mr. Corcoran is saying in that he can decide whether it is worth his while to——

Mr. Corcoran

We must close the loophole.

That is his position.

Mr. Corcoran

We know there is a loophole and if there is not, then the county council was wrong to direct CRH to build a landfill without planning permission.

Is Mr. Corcoran satisfied the Minister has legal powers, given all the circumstances, to appoint an inspector?

Mr. Corcoran

Yes.

That concludes our questioning. Mr. Corcoran is welcome to take a seat in the Visitors' Gallery. We will now ask the Wicklow County Council representatives to take the floor. Thank you very much, Mr. Corcoran.

Sitting suspended at 3.55 p.m. and resumed at 4 p.m.

I invite Mr. Eddie Sheehy, County Manager, Wicklow County Council — he was promoted from Dublin City Council to Wicklow County Council many years ago — and his staff to address the committee.

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Thank you very much, Chairman and members of the committee. We have made available a written presentation to the clerk to the committee. I will go through some of it with the Chairman's indulgence.

I thank the Chairman and the members of the joint committee for inviting me to update it on the problem of illegal dumping in County Wicklow. As I advised in my previous appearance before the committee, Wicklow County Council shares the committee's concerns regarding a number of serious incidents of systematic illegal dumping that occurred mainly between 1998 and 2001. These came to light as a result of investigations by Wicklow County Council. We are delighted to assist the members in any way possible in their deliberations on this matter.

I would like to put the matter in context because sometimes all one hears in County Wicklow is the problem of illegal dumping. Wicklow is a beautiful county. It is the garden of Ireland and there are many wonderful events happening in the county. Internationally acclaimed films have been made there. We have huge numbers of visitors from Dublin at weekends. Thousands of tourists from throughout the world are drawn to the county each year. Thousands of people want to live in the garden of Ireland, which puts enormous development pressure on the county. A number of top quality hotels have opened recently, including brands like the Marriott, which built its flagship hotel in Druid's Glen. The Ritz Carlton is building its Irish flagship hotel in Enniskerry. We have leisure facilities such as the ski slope in Newtownmountkennedy and more than 20 golf clubs. We have two marina development projects in Greystones and Bray, valued at €200 million each, of a scale not happening anywhere in the country. Very large commercial developments are under way in Arklow, Bray, Wicklow and Blessington.

We were shocked and appalled at the discovery by council officials that the illegal dumping of domestic, commercial and hospital waste had been taking place on a commercial scale at a number of sites in the county for several years up to 2001. In August 2001, council staff followed a truck containing waste to a site at Coolamaddra. This was Fenton's site. When we discovered what was happening there, we suddenly became aware of the possibility that illegal dumping was taking place on a systematic commercial scale in the county. We subsequently discovered the O'Reilly site, the Stephenson site and the site at Roadstone as the investigations progressed.

We referred to a number of other sites where investigations are ongoing. Occasionally one reads in the newspapers of references to there being 100 dumps in County Wicklow. There are a number of large-scale illegal dumps in the county which are being dealt with. The figure of 100 refers to smaller incidents of fly tipping or dumping of waste material on open spaces and these are being dealt with on an ongoing and routine basis.

Members may be confused about the various investigations taking place into dumping in County Wicklow. In light of what Mr. Corcoran said, it is important to explain to members precisely what is happening in the case of these investigations. There are two different and distinct types of investigations still taking place into the illegal dumping which has occurred in County Wicklow. First, we in Wicklow County Council have been investigating the major sites with the objective of establishing the nature and scale of dumping that took place and the environmental consequences of such dumping. These investigations aim to establish the appropriate remediation measures that need to be taken and to ensure that the landowners, the waste companies involved and/or the directors of those companies take all such necessary remediation action, either voluntarily, which would be our preference, or on foot of appropriate High Court orders.

To give members an idea of the scale of the investigations we have been conducting in the past four years, we have spent more than €2 million and thousands of man hours in regard to the major sites with which I will deal later. In addition, to such allocation of thousands of man hours, approximately €400,000 per annum is currently being spent on routine investigations into smaller cases. That is what Wicklow County Council is doing.

In regard to the other investigation, I stress that formal complaints were made by Wicklow County Council, not by An Taisce, Mr. Corcoran or individual councillors, and I personally made formal complaints to the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation in regard to a number of sites. I asked the bureau to investigate whether serious offences under the Waste Management Acts have occurred in regard to these sites. Its investigation has been ongoing for a number of years. It allocated a great deal of manpower and resources to it. This investigation is taking place independent of Wicklow County Council. The Garda will prepare a book of evidence and refer it to the Director of Public Prosecutions and he, not Wicklow County Council or the Garda, will make the ultimate decision as to who should be prosecuted in the courts.

The penalties under the Waste Management Acts can consist of up to ten years in prison and/or €15 million in fines on conviction on indictment. Proceedings on indictment are those which would be taken on foot of directions by the Director of Public Prosecutions to the Garda. Such proceedings are taking place in a number of cases.

The first major site that alerted us to the problem was Fenton's site at Coolamaddra. We investigated the site, which involved considerable expenditure. We took Mr. Fenton, Dublin Waste and the directors thereof to the High Court. Ground-breaking precedents were set in that case and these are now being followed in other court cases throughout the country. The judgment in the case established, for the first time in this country, the personal liability of directors in respect of this type of offence and also the application of the polluter pays principle.

The waste company applied to the EPA for a licence to carry out the remediation works. We were concerned about the delay in removing the waste so we went to court again by way of attachment and committal proceedings in an attempt to have the directors of the company committed to prison for contempt of court. As a result of those proceedings, a licence was eventually applied for and issued by the EPA and our costs of €200,000 to carry out the investigation were paid by Dublin Waste. The waste was removed at the end of July. The capping of the site and its subsequent monitoring are the outstanding matters.

We did not conclude our investigation there but made a formal complaint to the NBCI regarding the site. The Director of Public Prosecutions directed that charges should be brought against four defendants. A case is due to be heard in Naas District Court today. However, I am not yet aware of what may have transpired in court.

We then moved to deal with the O'Reilly site. We are taking a High Court action against the former landowner, John O'Reilly, the new owners, the waste companies that used the site and the directors of those companies to have the site remediated and to the recover the council's expenses and costs.

Brownfield has applied to the EPA for a licence which goes well beyond mere remediation of the site and includes the importation of in excess of 1 million tonnes of waste to be processed for recovery and disposal. We are not be happy with that and have written to the EPA objecting to any additional waste being imported. Brownfield also applied to the county council for planning permission to proceed on that basis but we refused that planning application and An Bord Pleanála upheld our decision to refuse it. We did not finish there. We made a formal complaint to the NBCI and asked it to investigate the site. Proceedings were initiated in the criminal court against seven individuals. A case is due to be heard in the courts in January 2006.

I draw Mr. Sheehy's attention to the fact that he has named individuals. Obviously, there have been no findings yet in the courts in regard to these individuals. In regard to the O'Reilly site, he mentioned one individual and included his name in the second line of the paragraph in his presentation dealing with this site.

Mr. Sheehy

They have been charged and we have also initiated proceedings in the High Court against the various individuals concerned. The names are already on public record. If the Chairman wishes, I will not refer to the names.

I want to make the point that the courts have not yet decided on these issues.

Mr. Sheehy

Absolutely. Proceedings were taken against seven individuals in that regard.

Relating to the Stephenson's case, we have prepared grounding affidavits, served legal notices and are initiating a High Court action against the owners and the waste companies to have the site cleaned up if they do not voluntarily do so. We made a complaint to the NBCI and it has investigated that site and a file has been sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Reference was made to the Roadstone site, particularly by Mr. Corcoran. I came to Wicklow County Council as county manager on 3 January 2001. Incidents dating back to 1996 to 1998 occurred before I became county manager. Regarding such events that have taken place since I became county manager, I can tell the committee precisely what happened. In July 2001, an inspection relating to another matter dealt with by a council official indicated that some dumping had taken place on the Roadstone lands at Blessington and this was confirmed by a further inspection a few days later in August 2001. At the time, it was claimed that the material which was above ground was mainly caused by fly tipping at weekends and it was believed to be confined to one particular part of the site. Within a few weeks, on 29 August 2001, Wicklow County Council served a section 55 notice on Roadstone requiring it to cease any dumping, to remove all the material and to restore the lands to their original condition. However, this was overtaken by events during the investigation of the O'Reilly and Stephenson sites. We heard persistent rumours that the illegal dumping that had taken place on the Roadstone lands at Blessington was on a much more significant scale than was believed to be the case in 2001. Preliminary assessments made by the council indicated that there might be cause for concern and the Roadstone site was then programmed for intensive investigation when work on the Fenton, O'Reilly and Stephenson sites had progressed satisfactorily.

Initially, even this intensive investigation did not identify additional major dumps on the Roadstone lands. However, we were still suspicious. We arranged for the use of thermal imaging technology to locate hot spots on the site. The investigation then focused on the excavation and examination of these hot spots using Roadstone equipment. To give the committee an idea of the scale of the investigation we carried out at the time, the county council's costs alone amounted to €550,792 which did not take into account the equipment made available by Roadstone to excavate the site. We have recouped these costs from Roadstone without any admission of liability. It was a huge investigation. Suggestions that people were withdrawn prematurely or that there was a lack of determination and commitment on the part of the county council are nonsensical.

After we had formed a view about what was in the site, we served a notice on Roadstone under section 55. We asked it to implement a management system and establish a data acquisition infrastructure and monitoring system to assess the risks; to propose a remedy to the council which would deal with the risks; to repair to an acceptable level the damage caused, and to remediate the environmental status of the affected areas. Initially, we were not satisfied with the response from Roadstone. However, the council's professional staff and consultants had extensive and prolonged consultation with the EPA, the foremost environmental agency in the country, and the Roadstone consultants for approximately 12 months. At that stage a remediation process was proposed by Roadstone, fine-tuned by our staff and consultants and discussed with the EPA. After many drafts were prepared, modified and improved, a supplementary order under section 55 was served on 7 July 2004 which instructed the company to apply to the EPA for a licence to implement certain measures.

Mr. Corcoran focused on one issue, namely, the construction of a dump, as he referred to it. Anyone who reads the section 55 notice will see that it contains many things which Roadstone was required to do, the first of which was to excavate and safely dispose of or recover all waste likely to cause environmental pollution. It was not about waste on three, four or five sites, but all waste on its lands in Blessington. It was also to excavate and safely dispose of or recover continuous soils which might be contaminated. It was next instructed to segregate the waste and remove all hazardous waste and recoverable and recyclable materials off the site. It was to construct an engineered facility within the Blessington site which would environmentally isolate and contain the residual fraction of the waste. The residual fraction is what is left when all the hazardous, recyclable and recoverable waste has been removed. It does not cause environmental problems. Roadstone undertook to carry out the work and applied to the EPA for a licence. However, the EPA has made a proposed decision to refuse the licence.

All parties are agreed that the waste on site should be excavated and the various fractions segregated, recovered and removed. It appears all parties also agree that this requires a licence. Where the EPA proposed decision of 12 July differs is in the proposal to contain the residual waste within the Blessington site. It appears there are three main options available to the EPA, the first of which is to grant the application sought by Roadstone and that it will do what is required under the section 55 notice. The second is to grant a licence and to carry out the other measures, with the exception of constructing the residual waste facility on the Blessington lands. An amendment could be included to provide that the residual waste fraction be removed off site to an appropriate licensed facility. The third is to refuse the application, as it has proposed.

Options one and two would enable work on the remediation of the site to commence immediately. We want this to happen to deal with the risk. Roadstone has also indicated that if directed by the EPA, it would be willing to remove the residual waste to an alternative off-site landfill facility. We do not see any reason a licence issuing instructions in either option one or two could not be issued now by the EPA rather than refusing it. Option three would necessitate the preparation of new remediation proposals, the service of a new section 55 notice and the submission of a new licence application by Roadstone to the EPA. It would delay the remediation process by probably in excess of one year. However, if that happens, it is my intention, following consultation with Roadstone and the EPA, to serve a new section 55 notice on Roadstone directing it to do the other things listed in our original notice and then remove the residual fraction to appropriate licensed facilities elsewhere.

We fully understand the concerns of the local residents. We want the waste on the Roadstone lands dealt with as quickly and comprehensively as possible. We want to minimise the risk to the area and the environment. Lest anyone suggest that the Roadstone site was dealt with differently from the others, I made a formal complaint to the NBCI about what happened on the Roadstone site. It prepared a file for the Director of Public Prosecutions. I understand two individuals have been charged and that the case is due before Naas District Court today. However, I do not have any information on whether that happened.

I asked members not to speculate on the EPA's options one, two and three when asking questions.

Mr. Sheehy

I will deal with the Redden site. We made a complaint to the NBCI and are now pursuing appropriate legal proceedings against the defendants to have the site remediated. I will also deal with the work in progress on the Treacy site at Russborough.

As regards the alleged involvement of Wicklow County Council which Mr. Corcoran claims compromises it, we have not made any secret of the fact that small amounts of material generated as a result of minor roadworks and road improvements and sweepings were deposited at various locations around the county on farmers' lands, in quarries and sand pits. Such activity has taken place since the Romans first started building roads. The road was levelled out and the surplus material surplus placed at convenient locations. It did not cause any environmental damage. While I am aware that such material was deposited on the Roadstone and Whitestown sites, the council does not feel compromised by it. We have initiated proceedings in both cases and made complaints to the NBCI about both locations. As regards the Roadstone case, we insisted on the recovery of our full investigation costs of €550,000.

As regards possible threats to water supplies, illegal dumping of the nature and scale discovered by the county council in County Wicklow can give rise to serious environmental damage and risks. We understand the concerns of local people. As Mr. Corcoran said, County Wicklow is the major source of water for the entire area. We regard any threat to either local or regional water supplies as serious. Protection of water sources is a major priority for us. As part of our investigations, we monitored both ground and surface water close to the illegal dumps and analysed samples for bacteriological and chemical contamination. It is important to stress that to date we have not found any evidence of contamination of drinking water sources by leachate from any of the dumps. Dublin City Council also carries out extensive monitoring and testing of the supplies and is happy with the excellent quality of water from County Wicklow. The council confirmed that to me this week. However, we cannot become complacent. Our objective is to have the sites remediated and cleaned up in order that they will not become a threat to water supplies in the future.

As regards resources, I referred to the ongoing complicated investigations. We carried out detailed examinations of the sites and spent approximately €2 million. Huge staff resources have been devoted to the work. The NBCI has also deployed large Garda resources to this problem.

With regard to the Fenton case, we recovered €200,000 of our costs. In the Roadstone case the council has recovered €550,792 in costs but we are still out of pocket to the tune of more than €1 million. However, we hope to recoup this from the various people involved in illegal dumping.

Lack of resources has not been a constraint in our investigations. Despite not necessarily having a provision in the estimate, I have instructed that all necessary steps be taken to process the investigations vigorously. In recognition of the need for additional resources, particularly for preventive work, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, is funding 100% of the cost of the council's new environmental enforcement team which is fully operational. The full complement of seven contract staff has been in place since March. The team works in conjunction with litter wardens and others. Currently, 14 staff work in the waste management section at an annual cost of almost €14 million dealing with the legacy of the 1990s which the council inherited and trying to prevent a recurrence of this problem. I set out in the report the steps being taken.

We have worked tirelessly during the past four years on investigations into illegal dumping in pursuit of the remediation of the illegal sites, in ensuring those criminally responsible are brought before the courts and also in developing an effective enforcement network with an emphasis on prevention through education, vigilance and swift "nip it in the bud" actions. The council's work has been supported by the Minister and his Department in the form of informal advice and guidance, the Minister's funding of the council's environmental enforcement team and, more recently, through his section 60 policy guidance. We have also received valuable assistance from the Health Service Executive, other local authorities, the EPA and, latterly, the Environmental Enforcement Agency. The assistance and resources the Garda has provided through the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation, NBCI, are very much welcome and appreciated and a number of people have been before the courts on foot of those investigations. The decision on whether to bring individuals or companies to court is one for the Director of Public Prosecutions, not Wicklow County Council. We take our responsibilities in this area seriously. With the assistance and support of the other agencies, we will continue to do everything to secure the remediation of the illegal dump sites in an environmentally appropriate and responsible manner.

Much play has been made in the media about when the council became aware of illegal dumping and so on. Earlier, when questioning Mr. Corcoran, a member alluded to something that happened in 2001. I became Wicklow county manager in January 2001 and, as a new manager, was interested in finding out what were the major issues in the county. During my first week I wrote to all 24 county councillors individually inviting them to meet me to discuss items that concerned them. I met many of them in January 2001, including those who claimed they had been aware since 1996, 1997 and 1998 of illegal dumping in west Wicklow. Dozens of issues were raised by the councillors during those meetings but not one mentioned that illegal dumping was taking place on the sites mentioned in my submission. At no stage did Mr. Corcoran or An Taisce contact me to provide evidence regarding illegal dumping, about which they allege they knew as far back as 1996, 1997 and 1998.

My first knowledge of illegal dumping in County Wicklow was gained on 21 February 2001, seven weeks after I became county manager. I was told by an engineer in the environment section that they had been investigating two sites where illegal dumping was suspected and that they were having great difficulty obtaining adequate evidence to substantiate these suspicions for three reasons. They believed the activity was happening at night or weekends when they were not on duty; they believed those involved were aware of the identities and car registration details of the council enforcement staff and would be alerted to their presence in the area; and they also found that nearby residents were unable, unwilling or afraid to give evidence in court regarding the activities.

I was concerned about this and, on that date, instructed that the investigations should be pursued. However, I also instructed that private detectives be brought in to augment the efforts of the council's staff and, in particular, to carry out covert surveillance at night and weekends of the two sites brought to my attention. Even following surveillance by private detectives with their expertise, knowledge and skills in May and June 2001, we still did not obtain adequate evidence that illegal dumping was taking place at the sites. Since the issue of systematic commercial scale illegal dumping was brought to my attention on 21 February 2001, all steps have been taken to investigate the sites, identify those responsible and seek to have the sites remediated voluntarily or on foot of court orders.

The investigations were pursued with courage, commitment, tenacity and ingenuity by my staff in the environment section, despite the pot shots taken at them by one or two publicity seeking individuals. Their efforts were augmented, as necessary, by the use of private detectives and consultants on a number of occasions, by overflying sites using thermal imaging surveys and the use of other appropriate technology. In addition, as soon as I obtained evidence that systematic commercial scale illegal dumping had taken place, I discussed the matter with the former Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and his staff. He asked the Garda Commissioner to arrange for the NBCI to carry out separate, independent investigations of criminal activity that might have taken place. I made formal complaints to the NBCI regarding five of the sites, including the Roadstone sites, and its investigations have resulted in the preparation of files for the Director of Public Prosecutions and the charging on indictment of those responsible.

Those who say they knew in 1996, 1997 and 1998 illegal dumping was taking place in County Wicklow did not show the same commitment and effectiveness in doing anything about it. I am not aware that they approached local Oireachtas Members, Deputies Roche, Timmins, McManus, Jacob or Fox, at any stage to bring the matter to their attention; that they approached the Garda at any stage to state this was happening and that they were getting no response from the county council; or that they approached the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or other agencies. It is easy to jump on the bandwagon now and say, "We told you so, we have been saying this all along." I challenged them during the past four years to provide evidence for me or the Garda regarding the allegations they had made. Apart from waving sheets of paper at council meetings, they did not respond to the challenge at any stage and produce evidence to me or the Garda. If individuals or councillors feel officials have acted inappropriately, I want to hear about it.

I discussed this matter with my predecessor who had been county manager for one year before I arrived and also with his predecessor who had held the post for approximately 15 years. I also discussed it with the county secretary and the county engineer, the most senior officials at the council prior to my arrival. The issue of illegal dumping was referred to in vague terms at council meetings. It is clear from the minutes that the county secretary, in responding, asked the individual councillor to submit details. The county secretary has no recollection of such details being provided for him. The two former county managers have no recollection of such information being provided for them. The only recollection the county engineer has regarding the sites is an approach by a councillor who made representations to him that the site would make a suitable landfill site after a proposal had been rejected by the council. He made representations to the county engineer that the site should be examined. As a result, the county engineer arranged for an individual to visit the landowner concerned and advise him on how he might go about applying for a licence and so on. It was some time later when we discovered the site had been used for illegal dumping for many years. The discovery was not made prior to the representations by the councillor to the county engineer that the site in question was an appropriate location for a landfill.

They are the facts relating to illegal dumping in County Wicklow which have come to my attention since taking office on 3 January 2001. I thank the joint committee for allowing me some leeway in explaining fully what is the county council's perception of what has been taking place.

I thank Mr. Sheehy for attending the meeting this afternoon.

I thank Mr. Sheehy for his submission. He will be glad to hear I do not propose to refer to events in 1996 but will confine my questions to the period during which he has had responsibility for the administration of Wicklow County Council. It is almost four years, as acknowledged in the submission, since first indications of illegal dumping at the Roadstone site were brought to the attention of the county council. Mr. Sheehy has detailed for the joint committee the extent to which that matter has been investigated in the meantime. We have heard that the use of thermal imaging equipment cost €550,000, that €2 million was spent during the entire investigation at a rate of approximately €400,000 per year, that 11 staff were permanently assigned to the investigation, that there was no problem in terms of resources and that additional assistance was provided by the current Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, who declared on his first day as appointment as Minister that the issue of illegal dumping was at the top of his agenda.

I would like to ask questions of Mr. Sheehy which relate specifically to the Roadstone site. How much waste was dumped at that site? What was its composition and from where did it come? Who brought the waste to the Roadstone site? How was it possible to dump waste at a rate of one load per hour or every two hours, depending on which estimate one believes, at that site without somebody knowing about it? How did such dumping escape the attention of council staff based in west Wicklow during that period? What was the extent of the council's dumping at the Roadstone site? Is it true that Roadstone has produced for the county council photographs of its staff dumping at the site? Taking into account all the investigations such as those at Coolamaddra, Whitestown, and O'Reilly and Stephenson, am I correct in my reading of the submission that Roadstone is the only case, or one of a few, which the council has not taken to the High Court? If I have read that correctly, why is that the case?

Deputy Gilmore has asked many questions some of which he may need to repeat for Mr. Sheehy.

Mr. Sheehy

On the amount of waste dumped, it is difficult to be precise until Roadstone completes its excavation. The council estimates that approximately 112,300 tonnes of waste was dumped at the site. We believe that comprises approximately 52,300 tonnes of commercial, domestic and industrial waste and 60,000 tonnes of construction and demolition waste although I stress that is only an estimate. Those figures may vary once excavation is under way.

The section 55 notice to Roadstone was an instruction to locate, excavate and dig out all the waste and to remove all hazardous, recyclable and other fractions of waste. We did not specify a time for the task. We instructed them to excavate and deal with the waste and that is what we expect it to do. On the question of from where the waste came, I expect it came from different locations in County Wicklow and Dublin. Again, such matters will be dealt with in the court case being taken by the NBCI against particular individuals.

Have sources been identified?

Mr. Sheehy

Waste materials have been identified. The Garda Síochána has prepared a comprehesive book of evidence and sent it to the Director of Public Prosecutions, as a result of which two individuals are being charged. It would not be appropriate to give further details on the matter. The question was also asked as to who brought the waste to the site. Such issues will be dealt with during the court proceedings. I do not wish to say anything that might prejudice the cases concerned. I am conscious that in one case the defendants pleaded they would not receive a fair trial in Wicklow because of publicity and the case has been adjourned and transferred to Dublin for trial. The questions raised by the Deputy about where the waste came from and who brought it to the site are issues which will arise in the course of the criminal proceedings now being taken.

I am not asking Mr. Sheehy to identify the individuals or companies involved, I am merely asking if he knows who they are.

Mr. Sheehy

I am aware of the identities of the persons being charged. I am also aware, based on the detailed work carried out by council staff and consultants, of a number of sources which may have generated the waste and so on. The council sifted through thousands of tonnes of waste and found documents and materials which it is attempting to trace. Doing so at the Fenton site was an easy task because we could trace the hospital waste, through numbers, to the particular hospitals from which the waste came. Waste at the O'Reilly site had been carefully shredded before being dumped.

I appreciate Mr. Sheehy's information in terms of prosecutions and so on is important but I would like to focus on the Roadstone site. Can he tell the joint committee the number of operators whom he is aware brought waste to Roadstone?

Mr. Sheehy

From a factual perspective, I am aware that two individuals are being charged before the courts and were, as far as I am aware, due in court this morning. I do not know the outcome in that regard given my presence at this meeting. That is as much information as I can give on criminal matters.

On the civil matter, which is of major concern to me given criminal matters are, at the end of the day, matters for the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Garda Síochána, the notices served by the council have been served on Roadstone as the landowners. The Deputy also asked whether Roadstone is the only operator against which we did not take High Court action. I would prefer if those who dumped the waste at any of the sites and the landowners removed it in an environmentally friendly manner as quickly as possible. The quickest way to do this is to persuade them to do it. If they do not do it voluntarily, we threaten them with court proceedings. If they still do not comply, we initiate proceedings and go to court. In the Fenton case, when the company did not comply with the court order, we went back to court to attempt to have the directors jailed for contempt of court.

In the case of Roadstone, it said that while it did not put the waste on the lands in question, it accepted responsibility for it and would deal with it in an environmentally friendly manner. It made proposals voluntarily on which there was considerable discussion between my staff and consultants and Roadstone consultants. We also had considerable interaction with and support from the EPA. At the end, a formal section 55 notice was devised and we served it on Roadstone to give effect to its voluntary agreement to remediate the site. There was no necessity for High Court proceedings. If Roadstone had not complied with the notice or had not paid costs etc., we would have taken the company to court. However, it took responsibility for its land from an early stage and said that although it did not know it was happening, it accepted responsibility and would deal with it voluntarily on foot of council and EPA directions.

The recoupment of our costs was a major issue with Roadstone at the time. We said that under the polluter pays principle, we expected that if it accepted responsibility for the waste, it should pay our €500,000 plus costs. After several robust exchanges in that regard, including comments such as that Wicklow County Council was attempting to screw Roadstone, it agreed to pay costs on the basis of no admission of liability. I do not understand why anybody should take a company to the High Court to force it to do what it has already agreed to do voluntarily. We would love the other perpetrators, landowners and waste companies, to do the same as Roadstone. This would avoid the waste of time, legal costs, the risks of legal proceedings etc. involved. We would be much further advanced with regard to the Stephenson and O'Reilly sites if the perpetrators did as Roadstone did — admitted responsibility, agreed to do what we want them to do to remediate the sites and paid our costs. We could then move on to other work on developing our county.

What about photographs?

Mr. Sheehy

There has been mention of photographs in the newspapers. I have been told that Roadstone has photographs of the county council putting material on site. I have seen statements from some council staff admitting that when some roads were being straightened, or whatever, the surplus material was brought to a number of locations, including the Roadstone site. Council staff have accepted that when the N81 was swept, and members and Deputy Timmins are aware of the problem of sand and grit on that road, it was usual to deposit the sweepings in places such as the Roadstone or O'Reilly sites instead of taking an hour or more to take the sweepings to a landfill site. That material did not cause an environmental problem as it was inert. I am not sure what quantity of material was involved, but the practice carried on over many years with the agreement of Roadstone, under a local arrangement.

One of the arguments used by Roadstone was that because the council had engaged in that activity, it should share part of the cost of the clean-up, but I disagreed and said I expected Roadstone to clean up the site. It said we should bear our costs of the investigation, which amounted to approximately €550,000, but I disagreed and stated that under the polluter pays principle, it must pay the costs. Roadstone's final position was that because we had put some material on its land, we should not charge it the approximate €50,000 overheads we added. I disagreed and pointed out that the overheads were costs incurred by Wicklow County Council and should be paid by Roadstone. In the end, Roadstone, despite any photographs it may have, agreed to pay our full costs and to fully remediate the site at its expense. Roadstone and Wicklow County Council agree that the council deposited small amounts, over a long period, of inert material on the Roadstone land, but that material did not cause an environmental problem.

Our concern is the assessment of environmental risk, dealing with any risk as quickly as possible and removing it. I am told there are photographs and know that Roadstone referred to them in its dealings with me. I have not seen or been given any photographs and do not recall whether Roadstone claimed to have them at any meeting.

Did Roadstone offer any explanation as to how it had photographs of the county council putting material on the site, but did not have any knowledge of other people dumping on it?

Mr. Sheehy

I do not have the photographs, nor do I know when they were taken. I suspect that if photographs were taken, they were taken around the time we became suspicious of illegal dumping and it was reported in the newspapers that we were investigating the matter. However, I do not know.

I do not dispute that, prior to my involvement and the information regarding these illegal dumps coming to my attention, it was council practice to dump road sweepings and surplus material from roadworks on the sites. As soon as the matter came to my attention, I issued instructions to all the area engineers that any such practice should cease. This was not because I thought it would cause an environmental problem, be illegal or compromise our position, but because Caesar's wife should be above suspicion. I felt that if we were to take legal proceedings against anybody, we should not be in a position where it could be said the council had been doing something similar, although what we had been doing was different and caused no environmental problem. I did not want the council to be tainted and immediately instructed that the practice be discontinued. This resulted in additional expense of hundreds of thousands of euro to Wicklow County Council for dealing with this material. This is unnecessary expense from a pragmatic point of view, but from the point of view of the public perception I was anxious to send out a strong message that the council had zero tolerance for any of this type of behaviour.

I thank Mr. Sheehy and do not envy him his job. Politicians are often accused of having thick skins, but one would need a rhinoceros hide to deal with the level of vitriol directed at times at a county manager. This week is an interesting one with regard to waste. Yesterday, a European Court of Justice ruling stated that environmental crimes should be taken seriously by member states and tomorrow, a report will issue from the Environmental Protection Agency on illegal waste. Mr. Sheehy also referred to an ongoing court case today. I hope the outcome of this will be that resources will be put into the right area to stop illegal waste.

In his introduction, Mr. Sheehy painted a picture of Wicklow as a beautiful county blessed with wonderful natural amenities, coastlines, mountains, lakes and rivers and continued to wax lyrical about the county. Does he have an appropriate or similar vision for the town of Blessington, which appears to be torn between being a quarry, a landfill, a town beside a reservoir and an expanding dormitory town for Dublin? It cannot fulfil all these visions. I hope we can get some clarity on the county council's vision for the town of Blessington and its surroundings today.

I was quite taken aback by the chronology as presented to us by Wicklow County Council. The dogs on the street knew that illegal dumping was taking place for at least nine years. The front-page story of the Wicklow People from June 1996 stated that a secret dump was being used for Dublin waste. That was not rumour or innuendo. It was not just an isolated case. Later that year Councillor Cullen asked whether the council could confirm that it was investigating the creation of a private refuse dump in Blessington that was taking Dublin refuse on contract. The dump being used is a disused gravel quarry. This indicates some clarity in 1996.

In 1997 the Wicklow People again stated that the council was fully aware of it, but was doing nothing to halt it. In 1998, Councillor Cullen stated that refuse was coming into the county on a commercial basis and this could be seen every day on the N81 and the N11. He spoke about dozens of private commercial vehicles. At the time the county manager said this was a totally inaccurate statement. I believe there was certainly a concern about senior management at that stage, in the mid to late 1990s. It did not just come out of nowhere in 2001. The council was well aware of the problem long before then.

There appears to be a Jekyll and Hyde persona within the body corporate of Wicklow County Council, on the one hand trying very hard to deal with the matter while also having to acknowledge that at some stages the council itself was causing the problem. This also extended into the area of planning. Several years ago planning permission was refused for a one-off house in Hollywood, many miles from Blessington. One of the two grounds for refusal was the vulnerable aquifer. At some level in the county there was acknowledgement of aquifers and the need for them to be protected. At the same time in some cases, planning permission was being granted for a substantial development. This year permission was granted for a huge quarry at Blessington beside the lake. However, Dublin City Council points to a risk to the water quality at Poulaphuca in correspondence sent by a senior executive engineer. It is crucial for Wicklow County Council to have a vision for west Wicklow to ensure Poulaphuca Reservoir is protected and that towns like Blessington receive the attention they need.

I come to the section 55 notice issued to Roadstone. I accept that different types of waste have different effects. There is the good, the bad and the ugly in terms of the waste in and around Blessington. However, as one who uses the water supply originating from there, I believe it is crucial not to have dumps, landfills and waste upstream of a reservoir used by 750,000 people every day.

I am curious about Mr. Sheehy's reference to no provision having been made in the estimates for addressing the issue of waste. I would have thought that a separate heading would have existed to address the very real problem of illegal dumping. I hope this will happen this year and in future years. On the subject of granting or not granting planning permission, it was incredible that the Woodleigh development was allowed to proceed metres from a major landfill and that the manager had said no evidence existed of gas being emitted. We now have several boreholes to address landfill gas coming from that development.

Is Mr. Sheehy satisfied with the level of co-operation between Wicklow County Council and Cement Roadstone Holdings? At times CRH seems far too close to Wicklow County Council. As a very simple example, I have heard that Cement Roadstone sponsors the annual golf outing for Wicklow County Council staff. There seems to have been a very strong relationship between Wicklow County Council and Cement Roadstone Holdings over the years. It is difficult to get the distance to look objectively at the problems. I wonder whether the council is compromised in its dealings with Cement Roadstone.

When did Wicklow County Council stop disposing of waste in an unsatisfactory manner? Again there are various chronologies. Is Mr. Sheehy now happy with Wicklow County Council's waste management practices?

Unlike some of the waste at Blessington, the waste at Russborough is right beside the lake — literally a stone's throw away. Some time ago Wicklow County Council said there was no significant problem. I understand the report to be published tomorrow will refer to thousands, if not tens of thousands, of tonnes of waste at Russborough. Has Wicklow County Council ever investigated that location? Three years ago I submitted a freedom of information request and discovered that Russborough had not been investigated in full. I ask Mr. Sheehy to enlighten us about that site which is right beside the lake. That freedom of information request made reference to 88 sites, 19 of which had not been investigated in any way at that point. Does Wicklow County Council have the resources and has it been able to investigate any or all locations notified to it as possibly having unauthorised dumping or landfilling in the county?

Would the manager welcome the appointment of an inspector to Wicklow County Council? At some levels I believe Wicklow County Council is still in denial of this issue. Despite the huge resources and the very good people within the council who are trying to address this problem, I believe a change of corporate mindset is needed to ensure this is taken seriously. The reference to Mr. Sheehy only trying to come to grips with the problem in 2001 makes a mockery of the efforts made throughout the 1990s to address this problem. It is not good enough for a manager to say "Put it on my desk and I'll address it". As Mr. Sheehy knows, it is crucial that a manager is proactive and works with the council to investigate what the councillors bring to his or her attention.

This is not just about illegal waste in County Wicklow. It is a metropolitan and regional issue. Dublin's water supply, Dún Laoghaire's water supply and the water we are drinking today come from Poulaphuca Reservoir and it is crucial for the health and safety of anyone living in the Dublin area that Wicklow County Council be on top of this issue. If Wicklow County Council is not on top of the issue, as I believe is the case, an inspector should be appointed.

Mr. Sheehy

As the Deputy said, Wicklow is certainly a wonderful county and west Wicklow is a beautiful place. The vision for Blessington was set out in draft development plan for the town. Ultimately this was not accepted by the elected members and we are in the process of developing a new draft development plan in consultation with the residents, community, etc. That plan will attempt to balance the various uses and needs of the area. Obviously, Blessington is under tremendous development pressure from Dublin. Its place in the county is set out in the regional planning guidelines, etc. The population targets and the overall strategy are set out in our county development plan. It is necessary that we finalise an actual area plan for Blessington. We will try again shortly to strike a balance between all the uses and all the aspirations of the various interest groups in Blessington. While it might be the case that the dogs in the street knew in 1996, 1997 and 1998 about illegal dumping in County Wicklow, nobody has produced a file to demonstrate that any evidence was brought to the attention of Wicklow County Council.

Complaints were made at the time. The relevant files were lost by the county council.

Mr. Sheehy

I will refer to the quarries in Blessington, for example. There is a file relating to a council question about such a quarry. The file contains the response of the county secretary who asked the councillor in question to provide details of the quarry in order that it could be investigated. The then county secretary has told me that he has no recollection of ever receiving such details. It is not uncommon for one or two elected members of Wicklow County Council to make allegations in front of media workers at meetings of the council. Some scurrilous allegations have been made since I started to work in County Wicklow. On each occasion, I asked the county secretary after the meeting to write to the councillor in question to ask him or her to provide details of the allegation and to produce any evidence that he or she may have in order that the matter can be investigated. It is invariably the case that such letters do not receive a response. During the past four years, I have challenged a certain councillor on several occasions to supply any evidence of wrong-doing on the part of council staff or other elected members of the council. I have reminded the person in question that he has a duty to bring such information to my attention or that of the Garda Síochána. I have asked him on numerous occasions to "put up or shut up", but he is doing neither.

There have been references in newspapers and in council meetings to unidentified locations where waste was being dumped. I have not seen any significant evidence in the files I have examined to suggest that council staff were aware of such dumping. A council official approached me in February 2001, seven weeks after I took up duties in County Wicklow, to say that the council had suspicions about two sites but had been unable to obtain evidence. He told me that it was difficult to do so because locals were afraid and felt intimidated by the landowners in question. Local people were concerned that their car registration numbers and their identities were known to the perpetrators. They had explained that dumping was taking place at night and at weekends when council officials would not be on duty. They outlined the extent of the problems. Even though evidence was not forthcoming, locals were concerned that something might be happening.

When I was the county manager in Roscommon, I used private detectives on a number of occasions. I found that their skills and resources enabled them to do things which council staff were not equipped to do. On the day in February 2001 when the matter was brought to my attention, I instructed that private detectives be engaged to investigate the sites mentioned to me. I took action on that very day — I do not think I could have been more proactive. The private detectives found it difficult to gather evidence. As Wicklow County Council continued to have suspicions, it overflew areas and used thermal imaging cameras to photograph them, undertook magnetic resonance testing and applied all sorts of technology. It engaged firms of environmental consultants. It spent €2 million as part of a determined effort to identify the scale of the problem and to deal with it in an effective manner.

I would like to make a frivolous analogy. Some elected members of Wicklow County Council are capable of telling one the winner of the 3.30 p.m. race at Punchestown at 3.45 p.m., but I have not seen any evidence that they could tell one the winner of the race at 3.15 p.m. It seems that people are getting great headlines by saying they provided substantial evidence of illegal dumping and that the council did nothing about it. If the people who like to talk about conspiracies and cosy deals have evidence of cosy arrangements or improper behaviour by any elected member or official of Wicklow County Council, they have a duty to bring such matters to the attention of those who can deal with them.

The National Bureau of Criminal Investigation has been investigating illegal dumping in County Wicklow since 2001. I have made five formal complaints to the bureau. Have any of those who claim to have had extensive knowledge in 1996, 1997 and 1998 of illegal dumping made complaints to the bureau? Such people have demonstrated clearly during the years that their capacity for gaining scaremongering headlines far surpasses their capacity to do anything effective about the problem.

Does Mr. Sheehy not accept that such people were proved right by the investigations which took place relatively late in the day? Were complaints made by members of the public? Did such complaints go missing? For example, did the files of an investigating engineer, Ms Sonia Dean, go missing in the course of the investigation?

Mr. Sheehy

The only evidence I have of a complaint made by the public about the O'Reilly site, for example, relates to one made by members of the Bailey family, who sent a letter to Wicklow County Council. Deputy McManus made representations in that regard. I have seen a copy of the report on the examination of the site by a member of the council's staff. The official in question came to the conclusion that nothing significant was happening. No further complaints were received from the Bailey family. It seems, with the benefit of the 20:20 vision one achieves in hindsight, that the waste contractors who were working on the O'Reilly site moved elsewhere on the site where they could not be seen from the Bailey household.

The joint committee seems to be particularly concerned about the Roadstone site. I have not seen anything in the files I have examined to indicate that any evidence of illegal dumping, in the form of letters, files, lists of complaints or lists of vehicle registration numbers, was submitted to the council. I accept that such evidence might well exist. The first evidence I encountered of knowledge, as distinct from rumour and allegations, of illegal dumping on the Roadstone site dates from July 2001, when a member of the staff of Wicklow County Council who was at the site on other business saw some dumping taking place. He immediately alerted the litter warden, who visited the site within a few days. The county council served a section 55 notice on those responsible by the end of the month.

Deputy Cuffe also asked about files going missing. I am aware that a laptop and other property belonging to Ms Dean were stolen from her car during the course of the investigation. I simply do not know whether the theft was opportunistic or had a more sinister motive. The evidence speaks for itself: Wicklow County Council has successfully pursued the Fenton case; proceedings have started in the O'Reilly case; and the council is preparing the file to go to court in the Stephenson case. The council has secured voluntary agreement from Roadstone to remediate the site in that case. No important files which have a material impact on the prosecution of the cases to which I refer I have gone missing. I remind the committee that we are talking about files which date from ten or more years ago. The county council has expanded its offices and experienced a high staff turnover since then. Files which were opened on various issues were closed and disposed of after the issues were dealt with. On the basis of the investigations conducted by Wicklow County Council, I am satisfied that the council has assembled a complete picture of what happened on the six sites to which I have referred. I do not believe that any of the documents which are missing would have a material impact on the decisions I am taking on individual cases.

The council has spent a great deal of money on consultants, thermal imaging, all sorts of technology and private detectives as part of the investigations I have mentioned. There is nothing more it could have done since this matter first came to my attention in February 2001. On my instructions the director of services in charge of the environmental section, Mr. Michael Nicholson, has pursued this matter courageously, vigorously and persistently, despite all sorts of distractions and red herrings, including allegations thrown at him and his staff, attempts to thwart his investigations and suggestions he stay away from particular sites. Wicklow County Council staff have put their heads down and pursued their investigations and this has involved unpleasant work. They have rooted around in Wellington boots on smelly, polluted sites and sifted through bags of rubbish. In the case of the Fenton site, they handled bandages infected with blood and faeces, breast material from clinics and all sorts of most unpleasant material. It has not been a nice experience and I am extremely proud of the work council staff have done in pursuit of their investigations since 2001, which has gone beyond any normal expectations a county manager would have of his or her staff.

At the same time, we have had hurlers on the ditch accusing council staff of all sorts of things and trying to distract them and gain headlines. I believe the vast majority of the 24 elected members of Wicklow County Council and the five members of the Dáil representing the county are supportive and appreciative of the fine work being done by council staff as part of the investigation.

I have a supplementary question. When was a section 55 notice served in connection with the Coolamaddra site?

Mr. Sheehy

Before addressing his question, I apologise to Councillor Cuffe for overlooking his earlier question about the provision for investigations into illegal dumping made in Wicklow County Council's estimates. It is important to answer this question. As I stated, no provision was made in the estimates. From the outset, my view on this matter has been that Wicklow County Council should not be out of pocket by 1 cent as a result of its investigations into illegal dumping. I strongly and passionately believe the polluter pays principle should apply and that landowners and waste management companies which benefited from illegal dumping in County Wicklow should be made to pay all legal costs and the full cost of investigating and remediating illegal dumping. For this reason, I deliberately chose not to ask the elected members of Wicklow County Council to include in the estimate a single cent for the investigations.

Nonetheless, I have spent money which we did not have in the hope and expectation that the courts will, when the investigations are completed, support our efforts to recover most, if not all, of the moneys spent, either voluntarily, which occurred in the case of Roadstone, or, as in the Fenton case when we returned to the courts and requested that the two directors be committed to jail for contempt for not paying our costs, on foot of court orders. That is the strategy the county council is pursuing. Most public representatives share my belief that the public purse should not be used to pay for the scandal involving criminal activities which has taken place in County Wicklow. The individuals involved are being brought before the courts.

No section 55 notice was served in the case of the Coolamaddra site. Initially, on finding some material on the site, the engineer recommended that such a notice be served on the landowner. Searches were then made to identify the landowner but the process was overtaken by events when a further inspection revealed that not alone had the landowner not stopped dumping on the site but it contained a large quantity of highly dangerous hospital waste. As a result, instead of serving a section 55 notice, we went straight to the High Court. One of the arguments used in preliminary proceedings in the High Court was that we should have taken a different approach. We won that argument and the substantive case and secured orders against the directors of the company, for our expenses, which we have been paid, and for our costs which, when taxed, will amount to an additional several hundred thousand euro. We will pursue these matters. While a recommendation was made to serve a section 55 notice, it was overtaken by the discovery that further activity was taking place.

I put the question because a report dated 6 September 2001, which I received in response to a freedom of information request I made on 4 March 2002, indicated that a section 55 notice had been served in connection with the Coolamaddra site.

Mr. Sheehy

That is correct. A report carried out for the county council at the time may have been prepared by some of the staff involved in recommending that a section 55 notice be served. They were not aware, however, that the notice had not been served on the date that the administrative staff were trying to identify who was the landowner through land searches and so forth. The erroneous report was subsequently corrected. As I stated, the proposal to serve a section 55 notice was subsequently abandoned when the county council decided to proceed in a different, more serious, manner by going straight to court.

The document I received indicated that section 55 notices had been served in connection with 88 sites. Is the Coolamaddra site the only one on that list for which a notice was not served?

Mr. Sheehy

As far as I am aware, that is the case.

Reference is made to six or seven other section 55 notices.

Mr. Sheehy

I would have to refresh my memory on the issue but I am not aware of others. I do not have the report with me but if the Deputy provides me with details, I will check it out and drop a note to him within the next week or so confirming the position.

I appreciate that.

I will be brief as the joint committee has kept the county manager here for a long time. On a general question related to the undercurrents of this issue, is the relationship between Wicklow County Council and Cement Roadstone Holdings good, close, combative or robust? Deputy Cuffe touched on this issue when he asked whether the company sponsored any council activities. I ask the question because my experience of CRH is that the company is, to say the least, a robust, tough and energetic lobbyist. When I was a member of Wicklow County Council, CRH was very enthusiastic about lobbying councillors on various quarries and permissions and would go to great lengths to ensure it got its way on them. That is not to say there is anything wrong with that type of lobbying but the company's financial muscle gives it an unfair advantage.

Mr. Sheehy stated that CRH made a voluntary settlement with Wicklow County Council and if the other parties involved had done so readily, it would have made life much easier. It is easy to settle using other people's money. CRH is settling with shareholders' money as opposed to the money of individuals and I suspect the other parties the council is dealing with would have to pay out of their own pockets. The great virtue of being a rich public company is sometimes diluted by the fact that the cheque is being written on an account that is not one's own.

Does Mr. Sheehy believe the explanation given by CRH that over the lengthy period the company — whatever that word means because to my mind companies consist of individuals — was not aware of the high level of dumping taking place? If that is the case, how did it manage to take photographs? This fact has not been reconciled with the fact that the council took great trouble to try to prove illegal dumping was taking place, including the use of private detectives who it appears were unable to prove the case to the council's satisfaction. I wonder how the company was able to see council lorries dumping small amounts of litter. It appears it was easy for some to dump but not for others given that the company was able to catch people committing minor offences while remaining unaware of others. Mr. Sheehy, to his credit, rightly said that when he initially decided to explore the allegations of pollution, he dug a lot deeper because he was suspicious. Does this imply there was a massive cover-up going on? I do not understand what happens technically when one dumps but I presume the fact that Mr. Sheehy had to investigate to the extent that he did means that whoever was dumping went to a great deal of trouble to disguise it. Could he elaborate on this a little?

Does the fact that whoever was dumping went to a great deal of trouble to disguise it not imply that those who were responsible and owned the lands might have been aware of it? There must have been a great deal more activity on the lands at the time given that the council had to dig a long way to find the waste. I am interested to hear what Mr. Sheehy has to say. I am trying to suggest that the council may have had difficulty in believing CRH's explanation and still has this difficulty. Does the council believe it is its job to settle this matter and get on with business rather than express a view on whether CRH is telling the truth? I have my own views on this but they are neither here nor there — Mr. Sheehy's views are far more relevant.

I am puzzled by one point. If I am being stupid, Mr. Sheehy should not hesitate to tell me because I do not totally understand the procedures. From what I understood he said, Wicklow County Council got together with CRH and agreed section 55 with the EPA, and the EPA had an input into instructing the company and giving it the opportunity to build this new landfill. If the EPA wanted to go ahead with this plan, why is it now refusing to license this agreed activity? Am I wrong in saying there seems to be a contradiction in that regard? It seems the EPA suggested and agreed to the idea and is now saying it is not a good idea and is therefore refusing the licence. There seems to be a glaring inconsistency which is very difficult to explain unless other influences have come to bear on the agency in the meantime.

I have an unrelated but perhaps important question. One of the submissions today states the illegal dumping, as far as Wicklow County Council was concerned, was confined to three areas. Is it correct that the CRH quarry in Blessington extends beyond Wicklow County Council boundaries into County Kildare, in which there is another dump or quarry — the Carnegie quarry? I understand there are extensive suggestions that there is large-scale dumping at that site also. Will Mr. Sheehy enlighten us on this? Does he believe that particular quarry also merits investigation?

Mr. Sheehy

Our relationship with CRH is a business one. We buy a considerable amount of road-making and road-repair materials from it. We pay it for the materials. As I said, there was an informal arrangement in the past whereby surplus material from roadworks and road sweepings were deposited on the CRH land. There was no payment made to CRH for that particular service because the materials were inert and would be part of the reinstatement of the worked-out CRH land.

I understand CRH has sponsored — perhaps once a year — some golf tournament in which staff at Wicklow County Council have participated.

If I may interrupt, does Mr. Sheehy believe that compromises the staff?

Mr. Sheehy

I do not believe it compromises the staff at all. It certainly does not compromise me. I do not play golf. I have never been at any event hosted by CRH. Ultimately, the decisions made on how the CRH matters were dealt with were made by me. I assure members that I do not feel in any way compromised by our relationship with CRH.

What is the value of the sponsorship?

Mr. Sheehy

I have absolutely no idea. I have only recently become aware of it and I gather it involves a golf tournament, a corporate day out, which is obviously quite common.

Perhaps Mr. Sheehy could answer the following question, which I believe is fair. Why does he believe CRH sponsors the tournament?

Mr. Sheehy

It is part of its marketing budget and part of its ongoing relationship with customers. Corporate hospitality is quite a common feature of business in this country and modest amounts of corporate hospitality do not compromise either the giver or those who benefit from it. Personally, I discourage it and, as I understand it, I have been told that no staff member of Wicklow County Council attended this year's event. That such an event was taking place came to my attention and I made my views thereon well known around the office. I am told that staff of Wicklow County Council did not participate in the event. Obviously, other companies and organisations also participate in it. I would not read anything significant into that, nor do I believe any of the staff involved in this matter felt compromised in any way. All of our staff who were involved in the examination have pursued it with considerable vigour, courage and commitment. The results speak for themselves.

To suggest that the relationship was cosy as we developed the section 55 process is incorrect. As we said, we wanted our costs and so on. The relationship became pretty robust, to put it mildly. As I said, I was accused by CRH of "screwing" it. That was the phrase used at the time. Ultimately, it complied with our requests. We were very determined that we would treat the CRH site in precisely the same way as the other sites were treated, despite any suggestions to the contrary. Our preference in all cases was that the sites be remediated voluntarily.

We did not dream up the section 55 notice. We served a notice initially on CRH to assess the risk and propose a remediation plan. We spent more than a year having meetings with CRH and the EPA to discuss and work out what the best solution would be. We did not have tripartite meetings. CRH at times consulted the EPA and we consulted with the EPA and with CRH. Ultimately, we finalised a draft of a section 55 notice, which would have been shown to the EPA. It suggested how it might be further improved. Once the final draft had been cleared, the service of the section 55 notice was authorised.

I have before me the evidence given to this committee by Dr. Mary Kelly, the director general of the EPA. She said the EPA had been involved from the outset in directing the investigation of the site. She said she did not have all the information with her but could state that the EPA was aware that waste was illegally dumped in more than one place on the site. She stated the nature of the waste was complex because the quarry is a working quarry and that the EPA directed and examined all the risk assessments carried out and was happy with how they were conducted. She stated that as the EPA had many meetings with CRH and Wicklow County Council and their respective consultants, it was au fait with what was happening on site.

Senator Ross asked why, in the light of the fine-tuning and agreement of the section 55 notice, the EPA ultimately proposed to refuse it. I admit I initially found that decision puzzling. However, we must bear in mind that all applications involve pre-planning discussions with the local authority during which certain advices and indications are given. Applications are submitted and considered in accordance with a statutory process and include third party submissions and so on. Despite what may be indicated during pre-planning discussions, a decision may issue that is contrary to that initially suggested.

In this case, a number of issues arose in regard to the section 55 notice and the licence. First, in the year that had elapsed since the section 55 notice was issued, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, issued a detailed section 60 guidance notice which dealt with the issues of illegal dumping and site remediation. In addition, much detailed information was provided in the licence application and environmental impact statement which were submitted as a result of the section 55 notice. The EPA inspector examined this information as well as the many third party submissions received.

The EPA did not feel constrained by the advice and recommendations it had given to Wicklow County Council and CRH but rather made an independent decision based on all the available evidence. I await the final decision on this proposal and I am anxious that it be given. My preference and that of my staff is that a licence should issue to provide for the sorting, segregation and excavation of the waste, and the removal of the various fractions. The licence should also allow for the transfer of the residual fraction off site — if that is what the EPA proposes — rather than its disposal in the lime landfill, as originally directed by the council. I would be satisfied to see the residual fraction moved off site, ideally to a location outside County Wicklow.

CRH has indicated in its response to the EPA proposal that it will comply with any instruction to move the residual fraction off site to licensed landfalls elsewhere. This is the most expeditious way of dealing with the matter. It is my wish and, I hope, that of others concerned that the matter be dealt with in a speedy and appropriate manner through the issuing of a licence. If the EPA is no longer satisfied with the prospect of the residual fraction in earth material being disposed of in a properly constructed cell on site, it can stipulate that it must be removed elsewhere. There is a number of licensed facilities in the eastern region that could take all or part of the residual fraction.

I emphasise that the part of the section 55 notice regarding the engineering of a landfill on CRH land was intended specifically to deal with the inert material after all the hazardous, recyclable and reusable material had already been dealt with, material which we believed would not cause any environmental risk to the water, aquifer and so on. The engineering of such a cell would cost many millions of euro. I estimate the cost of investigating the site and getting it to the licence stage has been approximately €2 million. To do what we specified in the section 55 notice would cost between €5 million and €20 million. This is an estimate based on my knowledge of the issue but it is ultimately a matter for CRH. I cannot say whether it would cost more or less to implement all that was specified in the section 55 notice but with the removal of the residual material off site. That would depend on the make-up of the material, what the different fractions amount to and so on. Much work went into the remedy we proposed and it would be an expensive project. I would be pleased to see the various other sites, O'Reilly's, Stephenson's and so on, dealt with voluntarily in a similar manner.

In regard to the number of areas concerned, we examined eight sites and found three with considerable amounts of buried material and three others with some quantity of material. There have been suggestions that staff were prematurely withdrawn from site but this is a figment of somebody's imagination. Staff were kept on site for as long as was considered necessary. We felt we had gained a good understanding of the extent of the problem and the notice we served on CRH was an instruction to excavate all waste on its lands. We did not specify a particular number of sites but ordered the company to excavate and segregate all lands, remove all hazardous waste and ultimately deal with the residual fraction.

The next steps, the further investigation work and so on, will be a matter for CRH in compliance with whatever licence is issued by the EPA. I absolutely refute the contention that staff were withdrawn prematurely. We carried out an exhaustive investigation costing €550,000 which we have reclaimed from CRH and can use for other projects.

What is the situation in regard to the Carnegie quarry? Is Mr. Sheehy aware of the reports of the existence of a landfill there with similar contents?

Mr. Sheehy

I understand the Carnegie site has been licensed by the EPA and is the responsibility of that agency. It is not appropriate for me to comment on CRH land in County Kildare. My colleagues in Kildare County Council are aware of the work we have done through our liaisons with other local authorities and various agencies. However, I do not wish to comment on issues pertaining to County Kildare.

Has Mr. Sheehy seen the reports?

Mr. Sheehy

While I am aware of various suggestions in this regard, I emphasise that I can only deal with issues relevant to Wicklow County Council. On whether I believe CRH's explanation, I stress that my only concern has been to assess the risk, develop and implement an appropriate remediation plan and recover our costs. Separately, I made a complaint to the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation, NBCI, and asked it to investigate whether any criminal activity had taken place and, if so, to refer files to the Director of Public Prosecutions. That investigation is a matter for the NBCI and has concluded. The bureau referred the file to the Director of Public Prosecutions who directed that prosecutions be taken against two individuals.

I am not in a position to form a judgment as to CRH's knowledge or otherwise of this matter. It is for the NBCI to form a judgment on it. It has spent thousands of hours investigating all aspects of my complaint. The decision as to whom and how many to prosecute was made by the Director of Public Prosecutions following review of the books of evidence. It would be totally inappropriate to comment on what I consider to be the level of CRH's knowledge. That would be hearsay. It is a question the committee could appropriately put to CRH or the NBCI. I regret I am not in a position to comment on it.

I will be brief because much information has already been discussed. It is important to point out that Wicklow is a lovely county and Blessington a lovely town. Deputy Cuffe mentioned the pressures the county is under, experienced most particularly by those who have bought the new houses to which illegal sites are in closest proximity. Many towns are under pressure. It is ironic to recall that County Wicklow had a strange policy of not allowing people from other areas to move to certain towns. I was the only councillor in the county who voted against this policy which was subsequently amended to allow a threshold of 50% of residents from outside areas. Many of those who bought new houses in Blessington, particularly those from Dublin, were covered by the 12 mile radius rule which was part of the planning conditions. It is ironic that they are the people suffering. The committee might take up the concept of people moving into new homes being furnished with a development plan or policy proposals for the area in order that they know what is happening, whether the onus is on the local authority or the individuals selling the houses. There is also the issue of sponsorship, by CRH or anyone else, regarding local authorities. I have raised it several times and it must be examined in broad terms.

Sins may have been committed in other areas, but that does not lessen our own in County Wicklow. I am reasonably confident that a great many local authorities have difficulties with illegal dumping, albeit not on our scale. Senator Ross rightly mentioned County Kildare, and there is an issue in Ballyogan in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, since it was widely reported in the local media. There is a legal site, but material may have been dumped there illegally, and certain allegations have been made in that regard. I do not know whether those have been investigated, but there are many issues regarding the dumping of waste either at illegal sites or otherwise illegally because money can be made out of it. It is very important that we have a process in place, particularly in the criminal justice system, to deal with it.

I have no confidence in that system. Before me I have two notes. The CRH corporate body had no charges made against it by the Director of Public Prosecutions, and the same was true regarding the Reddens' site in Enniskerry. I would like to ask the manager a few questions. I acknowledge the work Wicklow County Council has done, and I know it has been the recipient of a great many pot shots. Much of that has resulted from a sense of frustration at the snail's pace of the process. Naturally, the closest statutory body will take the rap, but I realise that many of the staff and officials work day and night at this and that the council as much as anyone would like to see the problem solved so it can get along and deal with the many other issues affecting the county.

Does Mr. Edward Sheehy, the county manager, believe there could be any change in the legislation that might help expedite this process? I first heard of illegal dumping around September 2001. I have heard the claim that it was reported in 1996 or 1997, but only within the last year or two. I would not like to categorise myself as a dog in the street, but I did not hear of illegal dumping in the context of what we know today. It is my hope, although it may be unfounded, that through the criminal process or the case going on today we might get to the bottom of when the waste was first dumped there. I also hope that, when CRH attends the next meeting, it brings its photograph collection, which would be interesting to peruse.

I urge the county manager, when he is at his mid-east regional meeting, to liaise with his counterparts in the Dublin local authority to try to get sites in their own areas for the deposit of inert material. There is a great deal of construction taking place, and as Deputy Cuffe said, it would certainly make life for people in Wicklow more pleasant — for none more so than me. I travel that road, and it is one of the reasons I stay late in Dublin on many evenings, since it is very difficult to drive home with that level of traffic.

I have a few more specific questions. If I am correct, the manager did not express an opinion on Deputy Cuffe's question whether he would agree with the appointment of an inspector. I would also like to know whether he is definitely satisfied with his current resources. The last time Mr. Sheehy was before the committee, he commented in that regard. We now have additional resources, and I wonder whether he is happy with them. Is there a need for additional thermal imaging of CRH or other lands? If so, can we put that in place to deal with all these issues together rather than in a piecemeal manner? Brownfield Restoration (Ireland) Limited, the company dealing with the Whitestown site, has an application with the EPA. Its planning application was turned down by Wicklow County Council, and its appeal was rejected by An Bord Pleanála. What happens if the EPA now grants it a licence? What is the process? Does it go back, based on that, to reapply, or is its application amended? I have grave concerns that Brownfield Restoration (Ireland) Limited might obtain a licence from the EPA.

I again acknowledge the amount of work done by the council. I take issue with it over the content of the section 55 notice originally issued. I welcome the change in direction that I detect in paragraph 4 of page 9 of the submission. It is reflected in the motion on the county council order paper, and I urge the council to adopt that policy, in line with what Mr. Sheehy has intimated at today's meeting, regarding every illegal site. If he does not have this figure to hand, that is fine. How many cases of illegal dumping are going through the criminal or civil process in County Wicklow? I am not talking about someone who did not pay a litter fine.

Perhaps I might finish on a lighter note, since this has been a difficult day for many people. Mr. Sheehy was talking about Punchestown. Unfortunately, Deputy Moynihan has left. There is a group of punters in Cork who can back the winner a few hours in advance in that virtual reality race. I believe they conned Ladbroke's through a computer error.

I might allow Mr. Sheehy to respond.

He can answer when he is wrapping up. I do not want to delay that. Mr. Sheehy said the NBCI investigation into the CRH case had been concluded. Has it informed him of that, and is it actually the case? I am a little surprised, since the council is still only at the stage of estimating the quantity and type of material, which is still there. Nothing has been moved out. There may be a deal regarding what to do about it, but I am surprised, and perhaps Mr. Sheehy might pick up on this.

Mr. Sheehy

I thank Deputy Gilmore for the opportunity to clarify that in case what I said confused anyone. The case has not been concluded, but it has been brought to the stage where files were referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions who, I understand, has issued a direction to prosecute several individuals. I understand those people were due before the courts today. If the NBCI investigation produces any further evidence of wrongdoing by anyone, it will also be submitted to the Director of Public Prosecutions, and further cases may emerge. In that sense, it has not been concluded, but it has reached the stage where the Director of Public Prosecutions has issued a specific direction, and I understand that two individuals are to be charged. The same would apply to the other cases. In several, the investigations have reached the stage where the NBCI has issued directions. That does not preclude further evidence being found resulting in more prosecutions, either of the same people or of others if there is substantial evidence of criminal activity on their part. The Deputy's point was a good one.

Deputy Timmins asked whether I felt the legislation was adequate. As someone in the enforcement business, I suppose that I am somewhat frustrated at the time it takes to do such things. I would have preferred for those sites to have been remediated several years ago. However, as a public servant, I am very conscious that we live in a constitutional democracy where the law strikes a balance between public good and private right. I must act within the law as it stands. Although my perception is that this matter has proceeded slowly and that it has been difficult getting cases into court, based on my experience in the Fenton case, it has been very effective.

Mr. Frank Corcoran of An Taisce referred to loopholes in the section 55 process allowing planning permission to be avoided. It strikes me that it is not a loophole at all. The section 55 procedure was deliberately inserted into the legislation in order that speedy action might be taken and to allow a local authority to direct that serious environmental risks be remedied without the process being delayed by planning consultations, applications, possible appeals to An Bord Pleanála and so on. It does not strike me as a loophole, and I share the Deputies' puzzlement. If An Taisce had a view on the licence application, why did it not make a formal objection to the EPA? I was puzzled by this and Mr. Corcoran's explanation has not done anything to obviate my confusion. I am now far more confused about the rationale for this.

In regard to the appointment of an inspector, that is a matter for the Minister and the joint committee may recommend that one be appointed. The proposal in Wicklow County Council is to appoint an inspector to examine the Roadstone site. Personally, I see no need for the appointment of an inspector as an independent investigation is already being carried out by the NBCI, our foremost law enforcement and investigation branch. The EPA has carried out an investigation and Dr. Kelly referred to the thorough investigation by Wicklow County Council. I do not believe there is a need for an inspector and calls for such an appointment are only a distraction. The matter is being dealt with effectively and is drawing to a conclusion.

There are aspects of some of the other sites that have intrigued me, for example Mr. O'Reilly was featured on television claiming that Wicklow County Council owed him €1 million for using the O'Reilly site for storing material. He sent the council a bill for that amount and I invited him to the county council and interviewed him——

I cannot allow Mr. Sheehy to proceed on those lines, as he is naming a person who is not present to defend himself.

Mr. Sheehy

The O'Reilly and Stephenson sites give rise to issues which have intrigued me. I have heard two opposing views from the two parties and I would love to know the answers. If there is to be an investigation, issues other than the Roadstone site should form part of its terms of reference. I do not believe there is a need for an investigation as I have every confidence in the NBCI, the professionalism and independence of the Garda and the independence of the Director of Public Prosecutions to take whatever steps are necessary.

In response to the question of resources, we now have resources that were not available during the 1990s or in 2001 when I took office. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has provided additional resources to deal with the problem we inherited and to prevent its recurrence.

The steps taken by Wicklow County Council may have forced those involved to go elsewhere and when we had effectively closed Wicklow to this activity, we learned that it started in some of the other counties north of Dublin and in Northern Ireland. To some extent that may have been a result of making Wicklow a no-go area for illegal dumping. As I stated, we are spending more than €900,000 on dealing with the problem of illegal dumping. If I had more money, I would not be prioritising further investment in illegal dumping, but using it to meet other demands such as development needs. Where thermal imaging is useful or necessary, we use that procedure.

We turned down the planning application from Brownfield Restoration (Ireland) Limited and An Board Pleanála upheld our decision. While it would not be unreasonable to have its waste material dealt with on site, in a similar manner to that proposed to Roadstone, under section 55, we would be totally opposed — we made such a recommendation to the EPA — to the company bringing in additional waste of more than 1 million tonnes to process it on site. That would be highly inappropriate, but at the end of the day that is a matter for an independent decision by the Environmental Protection Agency.

In response to questions on whether Roadstone co-operated with Wicklow County Council, we had a meeting with company personnel who undertook to do certain items. They did what we asked and paid our costs. Unfortunately a number of other land owners who allowed waste companies to use their sites have not responded to our requests and this has meant that we have had to spend time and effort dealing with the issue.

I disagree with Mr. Sheehy's stand on Brownfield Restoration (Ireland) Limited — this criminal activity must be moved off site. If the company gets a licence from the EPA, must it reapply for planning permission?

Mr. Sheehy

Yes, absolutely. To develop the type of facility that Brownfield Restoration (Ireland) Limited is talking about would require a licence from the EPA and planning permission from Wicklow County Council or on appeal from An Bord Pleanála. Wicklow County Council has already turned down one planning application from the company and that decision was upheld by An Bord Pleanála. I assume if the company were granted a licence by the EPA, the next step would be to submit a further planning application which would have to be considered on its merits in accordance with the legislation before reaching a decision, which it could then appeal by referring it to An Bord Pleanála.

I thank Mr. Sheehy and his officials for attending this afternoon. This is an ongoing inquiry and the situation is evolving. We are anxious that CRH would come before the joint committee and will write to it extending a further invitation to appear before us in addition to initiating the process of compellability, which is a lengthy process.

We would like representatives of the CRH and the Health Service Executive to come before the joint committee. Should the Minister wish to defend his role on the issue and address the committee on the appointment of an inspector as well as other matters, we should give him the opportunity to do so.

We will defer the item on EU legislation. At our next meeting we will deal with the proposed infill of 52 acres of Dublin Bay and, in particular, the designation of part of Dublin Bay as a special area of conservation.

Will Dublin Port be represented at that meeting?

Representatives from Dublin Port, Dublin Bay Watch and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government were invited to attend. A ruling from the Ombudsman on that process makes very interesting reading.

Could we include a related issue, namely, the sale of the site by Dublin Port for the National Conference Centre?

I am not sure if that comes within our terms of reference; the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources is investigating the issue.

The joint committee adjourned at 6 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 September 2005.

Barr
Roinn