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JOINT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Sep 2005

Dublin Bay: Presentation.

The joint committee met in private session until 2.45 p.m.

We will now have presentations from the Dublin Port Company, Dublin Bay Watch Limited and the National Parks and Wildlife Service regarding the proposed infill of a 52 acre site in Dublin Bay. I welcome the representatives from the three organisations to which I have referred. I draw attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Mr. Enda Connellan, Mr. Michael Sheery and Mr. Seamus McLoughlin of the Dublin Port Company. I ask Mr. Connellan, the chief executive of the company, to make his presentation.

Mr. Enda Connellan

I thank the Chairman for inviting us to appear before the committee. We have been asked to give members a presentation on the proposal by the Dublin Port Company to create additional capacity at the port. In particular, we have been asked to deal with the proposed reclamation of 21 hectares as part of the proposal and the environmental issues that arise from such reclamation.

The sole objective of the Dublin Port Company is to fulfil its statutory obligations to facilitate trade at the port and to do so in a sustainable and efficient manner. Dublin Port is suffering from serious capacity constraints and this problem will become acute in 2007. The port urgently needs extra deep water capacity but our expansion options are limited and we have little time in which to achieve our objectives. The proposal for additional facilities at the north eastern part of the port includes the reclamation of 21 hectares and must be viewed in the light of the aforementioned constraints.

As the facilitator of trade, the company has sought to meet the extra demand for capacity at the port within the timescale required and in the most environmentally sustainable way. None of the critics of this much-needed facility has suggested any realistic alternative which will meet the national demand. If the port that handles over half of Ireland's foreign trade is unnecessarily constrained, the negative impact on the economy will be enormous. It will impact on our national competitiveness, lead to higher prices for consumers, adversely affect the availability of many goods and deter foreign direct investment. These are serious consequences that must be factored into any discussion on the future of Dublin Port. In advancing our proposals we have done our utmost to limit the environmental impact. Our proposal addresses local issues while meeting our wider obligations.

Irish ports have acted as facilitators of our economic boom and have struggled to keep pace with major increases in imports and exports. At present, over 99% of Irish foreign trade comes through our ports. The operation of efficient and competitive ports is central to the effective operation of the economy. It enables exporters to ensure their products reach their destinations in a timely and cost effective manner. It also assists importers in the fast and cost effective delivery of raw materials and consumer goods.

Dublin Port has recorded growth of over 20% in the last four years. In 2004 it handled over 25 million tonnes, which is almost a fourfold increase on the tonnage handled in 1992. Significant investment has taken place to maximise the efficiency of our existing land in order to deal with the growing economy and the increased volume of traffic. More than €136 million has been invested in infrastructural improvements since 1997. We have seen growth across the full range of the port's operations, including freight, tourism, vehicle throughput and cruise visits. This year, for example, the increase in cruise liners visiting Dublin Port will generate at least €50 million for the local economy.

Dublin Port has experienced such high levels of growth because importers and exporters prefer to move their goods through the port. Most of our customers are local, with 75% located within 80 km of Dublin Port. The port is highly competitive. This competitiveness has been achieved by encouraging competition among the stevedore companies and between competing scheduled services as well as by reducing our cost base to become price competitive vis-a-vis national and international standards. Increasingly, we need to accommodate new developments in shipping. The trend in international shipping is towards larger vessels, which by their nature require deeper and longer berths. As an international trading nation, we need the facilities to accommodate the larger, more efficient vessels. Otherwise, importers and exporters will have to utilise a less efficient means of trading goods, which will have cost implications for the economy and for consumers.

On the basis of our current and projected throughput, Dublin Port will reach operational capacity in 2007. Put simply, by the end of that year Dublin Port will not have the facilities to deal with the volume of business generated by our customers. This is not scaremongering but a fact. In April of this year the Irish Exporters Association published a report which carried an even bleaker assessment of the port's capacity constraints than we have determined. The report asserts, "Port congestion will prove to be the single biggest challenge facing the Irish export industry over the coming years." It further states that "backlogged exports, inefficient road haulage and disgruntled customers will inevitably constrain exports to 0% growth unless we see urgent action in terms of port development."

Irish exporters are looking at only one side of the equation — the export of goods. The other side of the equation is the importing of goods, to which capacity constraints equally apply. The range of consumer goods coming through our ports is very broad and includes food, wine, cars, white goods, clothing, furniture and so on. The effective and efficient operation of Dublin Port is an issue for Irish consumers who are seeking low prices and wider choice and our proposal to provide additional capacity at the port must be examined in this light.

The proposal advanced by the Dublin Port Company is designed to generate additional capacity to service future growth and is a modest one. It involves the reclamation of 21 hectares along the eastern edge of the northern part of the port in order to develop additional roll-on, roll-off and load-on, load-off trade berthing facilities. The proposal involves the construction of a rock bund along the northern and eastern edge of the existing port reclamation, together with the reclamation of a new area of approximately 600 m by 350 m. A new quay wall will be constructed along the southern and eastern edge of the proposed reclamation, as well as ramps and other structures associated with the provision of berthing facilities. The proposal involves the provision of landscaping on the northern part of the proposed reclamation area and appropriate planting similar to that successfully carried out at other parts of the boundary of the port.

The proposal advanced by Dublin Port Company is the only viable option to deal with the problems of capacity at Dublin Port within the relevant timescale. Some critics have suggested alternative options which the company has considered to determine if they present a viable solution to the problems now faced at the port. Regrettably, these alternative options fall far short of dealing with the capacity problems at the port. I will deal with each of the suggested alternatives in sequence.

It has been argued that we could make better use of the existing land at the port. Critics have claimed that we make poor use of the 260 hectares at Dublin Port and, in particular, of the oil tank storage facilities there. However, much of the land at Dublin Port is held by tenants under long leases. While Dublin Port Company may be the nominal owner of the port, we have very little control over the leases and activities of the tenants in the port. We have engaged in a process of gaining control of some of the land within the port as leases expire, but this is costly, slow and often difficult. Even if we managed to recover significant portions of land from existing tenants, we would still have the problem that much of the land of the port area is remote from the deep sea berths that are so urgently needed. In so far as possible, the company currently has access and control over all available deep berths and quay wall facilities within the port and we simply need more of them. We have made proposals to Government regarding changing the situation on long leases to tenants at the port to facilitate the recovery of more land and we await a response in this regard.

Critics have also argued that Dublin Port could address the current shortfall in deep berths by using other berths throughout the port. Some have even suggested that we should use North Wall and Sir John Rogerson's Quay to facilitate freight. These two locations are not practical, however, and would take core port activities outside the main port area, with all the associated traffic, storage and safety implications.

One other obvious option would be to dredge deeper water berths in the Tolka estuary so that larger vessels could discharge their cargo at deep water berths directly facing the current shoreline of Clontarf and Fairview. This would help the port to gain access to deep water berths without the need for land reclamation. However, the environmental impact of expanding such operations on the north side of the port, fronting on to Clontarf and Fairview, would be very serious and far in excess of any negative implications of the current modest reclamation proposal.

Relocation of the port is another option, with particular attention drawn to the development proposal of Drogheda Port Company at Bremore. The development proposal at Bremore may present a longer-term possibility to assist in alleviating congestion at Dublin Port, but does not present a short-term solution. I have no doubt, for instance, that the Drogheda Port proposal for Bremore will encounter even more green field planning and environmental objections than those experienced by the Dublin Port development proposal. The development of such an additional port north of Dublin would also involve considerable additional infrastructural costs and it is likely that it would be many years before it was fully operational. Regrettably, the imminent capacity constraints at Dublin Port will occur far sooner than any alternative or complementary port facilities can become operational. Members should also note that developing a port facility at Bremore or elsewhere, either to complement or as an alternative to Dublin Port, ignores one key fact, namely, that while Government policy recognises that Dublin Port has a national role, over 50% of imports in Dublin Port remain within the M50. In fact, over 75% of imports remain within 80 km of the port. Seeking to defer the development of additional capacity at Dublin Port by relying on alternative port proposals will not increase capacity within the timescale required.

Environmental issues have also been raised by our critics. In 2002 the company submitted an environmental impact statement, EIS, to the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, assessing the environmental impact of the proposed development at Dublin Port. The EIS was prepared by Pasford Haskoning Environment and reviewed the various reclamation and infill options. It examined the impact of the proposed reclamation across a range of different categories, including the impact on flora and fauna, people, amenities, water and hydrodynamics and the consequences for air and noise. The EIS found that while there may be some potential for adverse impacts during the construction phase of the reclamation, successful implementation of mitigation measures could reduce the impacts to either minor or negligible levels. It also found that any of the possible adverse impacts would be reduced in scale during the construction phase through the careful timing and completion of different stages of the works. In particular, the EIS found that the proposed development would have no impact on the tidal regime or on recreational amenities. The EIS also found that, following construction, the most significant impacts arising from the operation of the proposed reclamation site would be those associated with traffic increases. However, the construction and commissioning of the new Dublin Port tunnel is expected to address any adverse traffic impact. The EIS concluded that the proposed reclamation scheme will provide the facilities needed to cope with current and future port requirements but with lower environmental impacts in comparison to the alternative options.

Some people have criticised the EIS because it was commissioned by Dublin Port Company but this is unfair to the leading experts retained by the company. The best way of assessing the claims and counter claims relating to the proposed reclamation project is to allow the matter to be considered by the relevant independent authorities. It is up to them to make an assessment of the merits of our proposal.

Dublin Port Company has no control over the issue of the extension of the special protection area, SPA, for Dublin Bay. It is a matter for the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. In line with other parties interested in the future of Dublin Bay, and in the context of our statutory responsibilities for the port, we have had contact with the NPWS on issues relating to the SPA. We have made our views known at different times and are entitled to do so but the question of the designation of a specific area as an SPA is a matter exclusively for the Department and the NPWS. Our key focus has been on dealing with the operational capacity issues affecting the port in a sustainable and ecologically sound manner. We have been a good neighbour to the SPA. For example, we have undertaken a habitat creation project for the tern colony at the ESB jetty. The condition of Dublin Bay is very good for birds compared to other European port environments.

Members should be aware that there are a number of stages that Dublin Port Company has to complete before any proposed development can take place. Each of these stages provides for public consultation, including an oral hearing and an independent verification of the proposal. Given the imminence of the capacity constraints, we hope that we can progress to these various stages at the earliest opportunity.

The question of whether Dublin Port Company is allowed to develop additional deep water facilities at Dublin Bay is not a matter for the company. We have set out the reasons why the development is required, the absence of any feasible alternative proposal and the consequences for the national economy of our failure to secure additional capacity. We have tried to do this in the most environmentally sustainable manner possible and to engage with and address concerns raised by objectors to the proposals. A balance must be struck between the needs of an economy which is heavily dependent on efficient and competitive port facilities with sufficient capacity and the needs and requirements of Dublin Bay, its users and adjoining residents. We believe our proposal achieves the balance required and ensures that Dublin Port can secure additional capacity while minimising any adverse environmental impacts. However, we recognise that the decision to proceed with the development is not for Dublin Port Company but for others to make. I urge those who dismiss or criticise our proposal to suggest a realistic and viable alternative, given the major national issues involved. Finally, I invite members of the committee to visit Dublin Port to assess the impact of the development and the concerns to which I have referred.

Thank you, Mr. Connellan. I now call on the National Parks and Wildlife Service to make a presentation.

Dr. Alan Craig

Thank you, Chairman. Before making a presentation on behalf of the National Parks and Wildlife Service of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, I wish to clarify that the NPWS is an integral part of the Department. It is not a separate, autonomous organisation.

Dublin Bay is of considerable ecological importance and is recognised as such by the designation of substantial portions of its area under national and EU legislation and also under wider-ranging international agreements. Perhaps the most important of the designations, in the context of today's presentation, is the special protection area, SPA, of Sandymount Strand and the Tolka estuary, under SI 367 of 1999, designated under the EU birds directive. This site was first designated as an SPA in 1994 and the designation was subsequently extended in 1999. A full comprehensive list of nature conservation designations in Dublin Bay is appended to our statement, copies of which have been made available to the members of the joint committee.

The designation history of a special protection area, SPA, for birds in Dublin Bay has aroused some controversy. In 1999 the NPWS was approached by the Dublin Port Company shortly after the extent of the SPA for birds was proposed by the then Minister, by way of advertisement in the national and local print media. Those with a legal interest in lands or waters proposed for designation have three months to advise the NPWS, acting for the Minister, of their objections on scientific grounds to such proposals. The port company drew the attention of the NPWS to a mapping error that arose due to the practice of using Ordnance Survey six inch national mapping as background for SPA boundaries. This mapping is old and in urban areas in particular it is often out of date. The scientific grounds for the port company's objection were quite simply that the mapping was clearly unscientific and erroneous.

The NPWS accepted that the proposed boundary for the SPA unintentionally included a strip of reclaimed land, developed by the port company in previous decades and an eastward projection of this strip into open water. The reclaimed land had no ornithological interest and the expert opinion available to the NPWS was that bird usage of the open water strip was not significant and did not justify SPA designation. Consequently, the area to which the port company had objected was excluded from the site as subsequently advertised in the print media as part of the formal designation by the Minister of the Dublin Bay SPA.

The Dublin Bay Watch group subsequently challenged the amendment of the SPA boundary in a complaint to the Ombudsman. The Ombudsman upheld their complaint. The Ombudsman's conclusions were mainly concerned with our failure to re-advertise changes to our original designation proposals subsequent to our discussions with the port authority and our record keeping at that time was found wanting. New administrative procedures have been put in place to avoid any recurrence of the shortcomings identified.

Arising from discussions with the European Commission concerning implementation of the birds directive, Ireland has agreed to re-designate all previously designated SPAs, ensuring they are given full pro-active protection, formally notifying owners and users of specific notifiable activities that require ministerial consent if they are to proceed. Many of the SPAs were designated prior to the adoption of the European Communities (Natural Habitats) Regulations 1997, which provide the legal basis for such protection. The Dublin Bay SPA, although first designated in its present extent more recently, will be included in this process of re-designation.

Applications for development which may have an impact on heritage areas or sites are considered by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in order to provide advice to ensure that significant adverse impacts are avoided. This applies to developments requiring planning permission and to those requiring a foreshore licence from the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. The Department has not been formally consulted about any current plans for the infill of 52 acres in Dublin Bay, but will give careful consideration to any such plans that may be referred to it.

The primary concern of the NPWS, which is a section of the Department, would be to address any potentially significant adverse impact of such a development on the natural environment of Dublin Bay. On the basis of our understanding of the matter, the primary concern of the NPWS would be to avoid any adverse impact on populations of protected bird species in Dublin Bay.

If the area currently under consideration is the same as that proposed for infill a few years ago, it is outside any current or proposed nature conservation designation in Dublin Bay, under Irish or European law.

Finally, I call on the representatives from Dublin Bay Watch to give its presentation.

Mr. Liam O’Dwyer

I am joined by Ms Mona O'Leary and Mr. Joe Nolan, who will deliver certain sections of this presentation. Dublin Bay Watch is a voluntary group which has an interest in protecting Dublin Bay. That is our function. We are apolitical and have been in operation for approximately six years. In that time, in discussions with the Dublin Port Company, different politicians and the local communities, we have fought any development of an infill of Dublin Bay which we believe is unnecessary at present. We have conducted a land use survey and a mapping project. We have commissioned a strategic planning consultation from Mr. Brian Meehan, a sustainability and effectiveness review of Dublin Port by Mr. Jerome Casey, an ornithological impact study by Ms Jackie Hunt and a number of other reports which we have presented to Government strategic planning committees, to the local communities and to political parties.

The issues we wish to discuss are the strategic planning considerations; use of port land; the economic destination of the goods in question; port efficiency and capacity; alternatives which we regard as vitally important; and the environmental and legal issues. To begin with strategic planning considerations, we believe the national development plan to be essential. The National Economic and Social Council clearly stated that its vision is to promote economic development which is socially and environmentally sustainable within the context of a balanced regional development framework. The national development plan seeks balanced regional development, the development of counter-balances to Dublin, relief of the pressures on Dublin and the identification and support of regional gateways. That is Government policy and is already agreed. When one considers what is at stake in Dublin Port, we find that the infilling of 52 acres of Dublin Port to create greater capacity to bring in more goods and vehicles, flies in the face of what is already Government strategy.

The subject of regional gateways is important because when we discuss alternatives later, we will see that alternatives exist. To be fair, Mr. Connellan has already mentioned them. These alternatives must be able to link to foreign and domestic markets because that is crucially important. We need enhanced intermodal connections linking port rail and road networks. We certainly can point to at least one if not two existing alternatives which can fulfil these requirements. We want to develop the capacity of regional ports because this is not simply about Dublin. It does not simply concern the wishes of the business community in Dublin want but is also about ensuring regional development around the country. There are ports which seek to increase their capacity and secure a greater share of the import and export markets.

In terms of strategic planning for the greater Dublin area, these guidelines are now statutory under section 21 of the Planning and Development Act and do not mention of a proposed expansion of the port. The plan seeks to strike a balance between public and private transport, to consolidate the metropolitan area in line with sustainable development and to develop centres of existing and future transport corridors. In this context, the development of other ports such as Arklow, Wicklow and Drogheda makes complete sense and fits well with the Planning and Development Act. In our view, the proposed reclamation of the 52 acres would be pre-emptive and would be contrary to proper planning and development in the context of that plan.

As for the port itself, we have grave concerns about the land usage. This is not a criticism of Dublin Port because it should be noted that we support Dublin Port. We do not want Dublin Port to move out, as others have suggested previously. We want Dublin Port to develop. However, we consider that it can do so within its current area of 640 acres. We believe there is sufficient capacity there for development. Other methods of land usage are vital in this respect. We would examine the extent of the waste land and park land which amount to 5% and 9% respectively of the total area. In particular, we would examine the oil farm which takes up a vast amount, approximately 8%, of the port.

To be fair to the port, its representatives have stated clearly that other European countries have moved their oil farms out of the port and they have a connection which is out at sea. Such ships need not come near the port regarding that matter. We have also seen cruise ships in the port and they are a real benefit to Dublin's economy. However, they are moored opposite the most appalling oil farm I have ever seen in my life. On the one hand we have a problem attracting cruise ships, on the other hand we have a difficulty with the way the port is currently organised. This is not entirely the fault of the port because many of these companies have leases on this land and they are on peppercorn rent, which is quite astonishing. It is the responsibility of the Government to deal with this matter. The companies in the port are profit making concerns, some of which have no connection with the port at all. These companies are being treated in a way which is favourable to them but which is not doing the port nor the people of Dublin any good.

We have great concern about the area of exports and imports. A total of 75% of the imports are within an 80 mile radius, according to Mr. Connellan. He is the expert, but we feel it is slightly less than that. Arklow, Wicklow, Drogheda are available and Bremore will soon be available, and this begs the question: why is Dublin the answer to everything? It clearly is not and there are other alternatives that are linked to the road and rail network. All of the imports and exports are not for Dublin. If Mr. Connellan's figures suggest that 25% of imports at Dublin Port are destined for the rest of the country, we suggest that a further 20% of imports are for the outer rims of Leinster. There is a substantial opportunity here to move considerable amounts of traffic out of Dublin.

We have looked at reports compiled by Dublin Port Company over a 20 year period. The company has been complaining about capacity for all this time. We have been given different deadlines for when the port was to run out of capacity and these deadlines are constantly extended. A new deadline of 2007 was given today. The last time we spoke on this issue, the deadline was 2005. From work that we have done in tracking ships, we believe that there are around 200 ships coming into the port on a weekly basis and the capacity is there for 300 ships. We believe that there is no difficulty with the capacity of the port. We conducted a study with Mr. Jerome Casey on the efficiency and the capacity of the port to ensure that our prediction was correct. The report quite clearly shows the container facilities at Dublin Port are currently operating at 32% of key productivity levels, when benchmarked by other European ports. Dublin Port's performance in the area of container storage is again poor at 55% of benchmarked EU ports. We suggest respectfully that it is not a capacity issue. The number of ships entering the port is 200, when the port can take 300. We also ask Dublin Port Company to take a look at productivity levels and land usage levels of the port, because the answers are in the port.

There are two ways to develop a port strategy. The traditional methodology is infill, which is the methodology that has been followed for the last 40 years. It is the easy way out. The modern strategy for developing a port is to look for productivity gains by benchmarking the port against other European ports, as well as networking with satellite ports. We would like to see Dublin Port as a hub of activity, but as a hub that is linked in to other satellite ports such as Bremore, which is known as polycentric development. Therein lie some of the answers.

As an alternative, I would like to talk about Bremore. Drogheda Port Company has put together very clear proposals in this area and is prepared to develop a deep-water port. Dublin Port Company is looking for deep-water facilities. If it was to develop the 52 acres, its own consultants assured us that the company will be permanently dredging the land around that area to keep the deep sea port open and available. From our perspective, that is a real concern. Bremore port has a natural deep-sea port and the company there has already negotiated a 150 acre site. In phase one, the company believes it could provide up to 5 million tonnes of cargo capacity. There is a further 250 acre site available and the company believes that in phase two, it could provide 12 million tonnes of cargo. Dublin Port currently provides 23 million tonnes. The deep-water port proposed development in Bremore now has a plan prepared. It is linked to the road network, it is 28 miles from Dublin Port and it fits completely with the national development plan and the national spatial strategy. To be fair to the Dublin Port Company, it is for the Government to provide the answer as the Dublin Port Company has its own responsibility to try to develop its business. It is for the Government to intervene in this case and to put the proper funding into the development of import and export business.

We have serious concerns about the recent publications that appeared on the national convention centre and the Anna Livia deal. At times, we are left incredulous at what we read regarding Dublin Port. Why would Dublin Port develop the national convention centre on 32 acres of port land if it has got a capacity problem? We are in the dark, along with most others, but it would appear that the development is taking place at the P&O terminal. If there is a capacity problem, why would the company do that? The only answer to that is that it has something to do with real estate. That is the cynical approach to this matter. Are we looking for 52 acres from a real estate perspective? To be fair, it would be the most valuable land in the country and that is a concern for us.

I thank the committee for inviting us here today to put our case forward. Approximately four and half years ago, we made two complaints to the Ombudsman and to the European Commission. Our complaint to the Ombudsman regarding the Tolka estuary and Sandymount was that the maps published were out of date and inaccurate; the maps were amended after undocumented meetings with the Dublin Port Company; the area advertised as the SPA was not the area designated; and maps sent to the European Commission regarding the SPA represented a collage of four different maps, some of which dated back to 1937. Arising out of that complaint, the Ombudsman's report on Dúchas is damning. She stated that she is gravely concerned at the administrative practices that went on regarding the SPA and she wants the Department to take steps to regularise the SPA.

The EU Commission's perspective was on the same lines, the only difference being its interest in the exclusion of inter-tidal habitat from a proposed SPA. Arising from that, the Commission's position is that all relevant legal papers have gone forward to the European Court in the case against the Irish authorities for failing to protect a complete wetlands system. The one thing which has not been produced to the European Union or the ombudsman after four and a half years has been scientific evidence to support the exclusion of inter-tidal habitat from an SPA.

As Jackie Hunt's report confirms, Dublin Bay is one of Ireland's top five feeding grounds for wintering birds. The European Court of Justice has ruled that SPA boundaries must be decided on scientific grounds only and that qualifying areas cannot be excluded for economic reasons. Dublin Port Company's own environmental impact assessment map shows clearly that inter-tidal habitat continues into the proposed infill site and eastwards out to sea. More birds feed per hectare in the proposed development site than anywhere else in the Tolka Estuary.

Ms Mona O’Leary

I should spend a couple of minutes on the legal aspect of the matter. The application to infill the 52 acres was made under section 10 of the Foreshore Act. The interesting thing about section 10 is that it constrains the Minister in what he can take into consideration. An application must be viewed in light of whether or not an infill would cause an obstruction to navigation or fishing. That is the extent of his power. To apply under section 10, one must own the foreshore in question whereas our research demonstrates that Dublin Port does not own this foreshore and, we understand, is having some difficulty proving to the Chief State Solicitor that it does. If the company does not own the foreshore, the application under section 10 must fall. While there are other sections of the Foreshore Act under which an application can be made, particularly section 3, if the company takes this approach, the Minister must take the public interest into account.

One of the ways in which the company's ownership problems can be dealt with is for the Minister to grant it a lease. If he does so, he must again take the public interest into account, though not in as strong a fashion. There is a significant political decision to be made. If the port does not own the land, will the Minister make its life easier by providing it with a lease or will the public interest be central to consideration of the application? That is the power available under the Foreshore Act.

To be fair, I will call spokesperson members of the committee first and members and non-members subsequently. In asking their questions, members should say to whom they are addressed.

As the only non-Dublin member in attendance, I am looking at this matter entirely from the outside. I am from Galway which is a good bit away. My first question is for Mr. Connellan who acknowledged in his report that Dublin Port Company had over 600 acres of land in the port area, much of which is tied up in long-term leases. The port has made proposals to Government about making changes to the system of long-term leases. When were those proposals made, have they been pursued vigorously since and what has been the response of Government? This matter seems to hold part of the key to a possible solution. If the 600 acres tied up in long-term leases were released through representations to the Government, things might be different. If the port company proposes to infill 52 acres while proposing to dispose of 32 acres for a national convention centre, apartments and retail units, is not the purpose of bringing more traffic into the port defeated? I would like clarification of whether or not the proposal is on the cards.

My next question is for Dr. Craig of the National Parks and Wildlife Service. In his submission, Dr. Craig said that arising from the discussion of the European convention on the implementation of the birds directive Ireland had agreed to redesignate all previously designated SPAs. While Dublin Bay SPA was first designated relatively recently, it will be included in the redesignation process. Is it feasible to have a special area of conservation where there is an active port? It seems contradictory to maintain an SPA while trying to develop a port in the same area.

Like Deputy McCormack, I am interested to find out from Mr. Connellan when the proposals to which he referred on page 4 of his submission on long-term leases were made to the Government? Can Mr. Connellan outline for the committee in general terms what the proposals entailed?

If one accepts Mr. Connellan's case that the port is nearing its capacity and leaving aside for the moment the possible development of other ports to meet requirements on the east coast, it remains to be asked why Dublin Port proposes to sell land when it needs to infill 52 acres. As I understand it, the site it is proposed to dispose of for the national conference centre is the P&O site, which is very central in the port's overall property holding.

The core issue is the amount of land Dublin Port needs to fulfil its obligations. According to a reply to a parliamentary question submitted to the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources received a letter on 18 May from Dublin Port Company requesting ministerial approval of its proposal to enter into an arrangement with a consortium as detailed in draft heads of terms which were attached. The proposal was that Dublin Port Company would make available a site to facilitate the development of the national conference centre together with further and complementary commercial development. Can Mr. Connellan outline to the committee the extent of the site? Did it represent the 32 acres about which there has been speculation? It has been speculated that the conference centre would require five acres and that an additional 27 acres would be provided for the complementary commercial development.

Can Mr. Connellan tell the committee in general what were the draft heads of the terms of agreement submitted to the Department in respect of the above site and explain how the proposal arose?

Again referring to the reply of the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, it would appear that the Department did not appear to know about the matter until it got a press query on 22 March 2005, whereupon it then made inquiries of the port company. Will Mr. Connellan inform the committee as to when and how the proposal arose, what were the draft terms of agreement that were submitted to the Department and what was the extent of the site in question? How does he reconcile the fact that it was proposed to dispose of 32 acres? If the port company needs 52 acres and has made proposals to Government regarding all matters, from tenants to the 52 acres, why would it not have awaited the outcome of that before deciding that it had land to spare?

I appreciate there are many questions remaining. I will take one more question and then allow Mr. Connellan to respond to some of them. We will then go back to the members again.

This discussion shows that somebody needs to think of the big picture. I do not believe that is happening within Dublin Port or at a national or Government level either. All kinds of perambulations are happening within the Dublin Port Company that do not stack up. It does not make sense. I do not believe reclamation is the answer. The point about the implementation of the national spatial strategy is a valid one. If we want to take the pressure off Dublin we should be developing the ports north and south of Dublin. That would tie in better with UK ports in terms of geography. This has been stated for many years and, especially in terms of the national spatial strategy, it makes sense to develop a polycentric model of port availability and distribution. I do not see that coming from the Dublin Port Company.

As the two previous speakers asked, why is the Dublin Port Company trying to arrange a cosy deal with developers to sell off 30 odd acres? Why was no reference made to this in its presentation? I am sorry but I cannot trust the company if it does not mention the fact that a cosy deal has been arranged behind closed doors to sell off a large chunk of the port for the development of hotels, apartments and a national conference centre beside the Point Depot. It does not make sense that the company wants to push out ever further into the bay and sell off what it leaves behind. That does not conform with its objectives and with the legislation and it does not do the company any credit not to even mention that proposal in its presentation to us today. I am deeply concerned about that.

On the other issues, if the Dublin Port Company is looking for a better use of the existing land, where are its proposals for doing that? The company is large enough to come in here with the legislation to reform the way its leases work. From my knowledge of the company in the past ten or 15 years I have not seen any sign of that, nor have I seen any firm proposal coming from it in that regard. Instead of making better use of the land, which the company must do, why does it not look for some of the port activities to be moved out of town?

The point has been well made about the tank farms. First, they are ugly but second, it is a safety risk to have tank farms very close to a built up area. One can either pipe it out or have a new port facility outside of Dublin Port but it does not make sense to have many of the facilities one has in Dublin Port which are in the heart of a capital city. The company should be looking at new port facilities. I am long enough in the tooth to remember the detailed debate around the Dublin transportation initiative in the early 1990s when moving part of Dublin Port out of the city centre was discussed. It has been said by the company that it takes a long lead-in to make that happen. Why did it not initiate it back then?

The mantra which the Dublin Port Company keeps repeating is that it needs more land. It produces a glossy brochure every ten years. It happened in 1980 and 1990 and it is happening in 2005. The company must take a longer term view and look beyond filling in Dublin Bay. That has been its aim since the 1970s. Why has it not looked at developing a satellite port outside of Dublin? Why has it not presented us with draft legislation to make better use of its existing assets? I would like an explanation for why it appears to be entering into a cosy deal with a developer to sell off part of Dublin Port while at the same time it states that it needs 52 acres.

I should put on the record that the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources is also examining the wider port issues. I accept it is impossible to deal with the environmental aspects of this application without looking at the overall picture.

Mr. Connellan

Perhaps I should begin with the leases. It is not just the Dublin Port Company that has been talking about the problems with landlord-tenant legislation. Since we were corporatised in 1997, the Irish Ports Association has been making representations to the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources concerning landlord-tenant legislation. It does not allow ports to lease land for more than four years and nine months unless they give it for 9,000 years. That is a fact. Committee members may cast their minds back to what happened with the IGB site recently. The Dublin Port Company has a strong record of protecting its land. It won a court case against IGB earlier this year.

It is not just the Dublin Port Company that has been calling for this change. Approximately four years ago the Law Reform Commission drew to the Government's attention to problems with landlord-tenant law which are similar to what we are talking about. They cause untold grief for landlords of commercial land and their tenants. That is the core issue and we are not alone in holding that view. Several pieces of legislation had to be rushed through the Dáil this year to try to protect leases, which were not just IDA leases.

When were those proposals made?

Mr. Connellan

The last time we made them was on 24 February.

When was the first time?

Mr. Connellan

Four or five years ago. The IPA did it in 1997.

What response was there?

Mr. Connellan

The question might be better addressed to the Department. It was not a very satisfactory response.

Did the Dublin Port Company or the IPA draft legislation?

Mr. Connellan

We did not draft legislation but we made suggestions. Most people are aware that the matter of the national conference centre is currently with the Minister and the Attorney General's office so I cannot speak about it in detail. I assure the committee that there is no net loss of operational land to the port as a result of that proposal. When I am in a position to answer the other questions raised by the Deputies I would be very happy to do so before this or any other committee.

This sounds like the loaves and fishes.

Mr. Connellan

I am sorry I cannot answer the question posed by the Deputy at the moment but I would be very happy to answer it when——

I cannot understand the answer or non-answer.

Mr. Connellan

My answer is that there is no net loss of operational land to the port. I understand the question. It would look ridiculous if I was looking for land in one place and selling it off in the other if I were to lose the use of that land for port purposes, which I am not. Some 40 acres of land have been lost to the port for the tunnel. The tunnel is good and will be good for the port. However, the land is far away from the water's edge and is not as valuable as other land. What we really need is land close to deep water.

There is a trick being played on us here. We are not getting the answer.

I will allow a round of questions on this subject.

I am just asking questions to get facts. How did the proposal come about? How much land is involved? What, in general terms, were the heads of agreement put to the Department? I do not see any reason that information cannot be given. We are talking about public property. The company is State-owned and there is no secret or mystery about it. It is public business and the basic information I seek should be provided to the committee. We are aware that the Minister has not responded to it and that an issue relating to the procedures which were followed has arisen. I understand this matter has been referred to the Attorney General. I do not know any of reason the essential facts should not be given to the committee. I ask Mr. Connellan to provide them.

I am conscious that other members are desperate to contribute. I will allow a round of questions by Deputies McCormack and Finian McGrath, and Senator Morrissey.

It appears to be a case of smoke and mirrors if the port disposes of 32 acres — if this is the amount — without any net loss. How can this be the case?

I endorse what was said earlier about the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, which is to have further hearings on this issue. Is it correct, in strictly economic terms, that the number of containers Dublin Port handles is only 32% of the benchmark pertaining to EU container ports? Do the delegates not agree that the way forward is increased port productivity and a diversion of port traffic to the satellite ports? Have they read the report by the consultants John Mangan and Associates, commissioned by the Drogheda Port? It identified the urgent need to divert traffic out of Dublin Port to the south and elsewhere. The Mangan report is in line with the national spatial strategy.

Do the Dublin Port Company delegates accept that Drogheda Port, which currently has an option on 150 acres on which to develop, can increase its level of freight to approximately 5 million tonnes per year? Do they accept that if the port was afforded the proper supports for economic development by both State and local authorities, it could develop a capacity of 20 million tonnes from the 150 acres?

Mr. O'Dwyer and Mr. Nolan mentioned in their introduction that Dublin Bay Watch is a voluntary group. How many local residents in their area support the group's efforts? What kind of response are they getting on the ground from communities at public meetings?

My next question is for all three delegations. If one fills in 52 acres of land in Dublin Bay, what are the flooding implications for Fairview, Clontarf and other parts of the city? It is very important that this be answered because Fairview and Clontarf have recently experienced major flooding problems. How will the filling in of 52 acres affect the local environment, the tides and the water level? The issue of flooding must be dealt with.

I presume the purpose of the 52 acres the delegates are seeking is to increase the tonnage. A glaring omission in Dublin Port Company's submission was the lack of a reference to the number of years it will take before the 52 acres will reach capacity. What will be the tonnage increase per year and when will capacity be reached? I ask because Drogheda Port, while it holds an option on 150 acres, also proposes to reclaim a further 70 acres. Fingal County Council will shortly initiate an action plan which will possibly result in 1,000 acres for port-related activity. Meath County Council has only last year allocated 250 acres for port-related activity at the Gormanston interchange on the M1. When one considers the huge expanse of land that will be available at Bremore, one can see how insignificant 52 acres are in terms of meeting the needs of the ports of the entire country. What will 52 acres amount to in relation to a possible 1,500 acre development just some miles north of where Dublin Port is situated?

In light of recent pronouncements by the Jurys Doyle Hotel Group and the Glass Bottle Company making reference to the value of sites, I presume that the Port Company, like any good landlord, has an estimate of the value of the 640 acres it presently owns. The Port Company delegates mentioned in their presentation that Bremore Port will have to overcome planning and environmental issues. Can they support this? The Drogheda Port representatives have informed me they will be in business by January 2009. Will the Port Company delegates state what their company is doing across Europe with regard to port development? Is it not the case that ports similar to Dublin Port are relocating rather than doing what it is doing?

The delegates mentioned in their submission that they must cater for the needs of shipping and that there is a trend towards having larger vessels. This is certainly the case. There will be larger containers on the vessels. I visited the port of Helsinki, at which port a company has 1,700 large containers that will not fit into the Port Tunnel. It told me to inform Dublin Port Company that it does not intend to dispose of its containers but that it will move its business from Dublin to Bremore. Although Dublin Port has certain requirements if it is to deal with modern trends, is it not constrained by the very port tunnel, to which it attaches so much importance because it believes it will relieve traffic congestion in the area?

Maybe Mr. Connellan will be allowed to answer the questions without interruption, after which we can ask more.

Mr. Connellan

I am tempted to work backwards so as not to forget the questions, but I will try to address them in the order they were asked. To make a sensible comment on the benchmark, I would have to know the ports against which we were benchmarked. However, I would say the answer is no. Dublin Port is a feeder port in that every container that goes to the United States goes east before it goes west. There are three types of container ports: deep-sea mothership ports — Dublin Port is not in this category; trans-shipment ports; and feeder ports. They all have different metrics. I am very satisfied with the metrics we have in Dublin concerning the handling of containers and I therefore reject utterly the assertion made by the Deputy.

I have read John Mangan's report. Let me group the satellite ports together in answering the question thereon. Waterford Port has a publication which refers to its 18% growth rate. I can make the publication available to the committee. All of the traffic from that port feeds Dublin. This not only has an economic cost but also an environmental cost. We should take this into consideration.

Dublin Port has a share in a satellite port in that it has a 50% stake in Greenore Port. The local authority has built a new road to Greenore Port. The Greenore Port board has recently made a decision to expand that port using private money. In answer to the question as to the timeframe, the first traffic on the proposed reclaimed land would be within two years. I see no reason why the amount of land proposed to be reclaimed would not satisfy requirements in the foreseeable future.

I am not asking about the foreseeable future. The company is in the port business and I presume it is looking at the level of imports and exports from the country and that it has the information. The committee should not be stonewalled. What is the tonnage increase per year expected in Dublin Port which cannot currently be accommodated and which will require a site of 52 acres? Over what number of years will that 52 acres be occupied?

Mr. Connellan

We are growing at about 6% per annum.

How many tonnes is that?

Mr. Connellan

That depends on what is in the containers. An empty container takes up as much space as a full one. It is a strange measure to talk solely about tonnage. As ships become bigger they also tend to be fewer. Up to 1994, the number of ships coming into port was declining annually and it only began to rise after that date. At the present rates of growth the port will be able to cater for the next 20 years. I include in that estimate the efficiencies which will result from larger ships.

Does this allow for a competitor port in Greenore taking some of that business?

Mr. Connellan

I wish the competitor port in Greenore the best of luck. Drogheda's accounts show it made a profit of approximately €350,000. I wish them luck in their efforts but we are competing ports. I am challenged by the legislation. I have been appointed to do a job and I will compete with whatever is there until such time as the State decides it does not want the ports to compete with one another. It is Government policy that Dublin Port will stay where it is until at least 2015.

I asked a question about the value of the port, depending on the constraints that Bremore might have, as referred to in the delegation's presentation.

Mr. Connellan

A rezoned Dublin Port would have be very valuable but its current zoning does not allow for that value. Many years ago before expansion began, the Dublin Port Company put land up for sale. It was offered a low price for the land, mainly because much of it had been reclaimed by city refuse. I could guess a value and it would be very high if the land was rezoned. The current policy which I support and which I hope is being drafted into legislation is for the ports to use their assets to fund expansion rather than having their hands out for State funding.

Mr. Connellan referred to planning and environmental constraints which might affect Bremore. Are other European ports reclaiming land the same as Dublin Port?

Mr. Connellan

Most European ports are doing so. Rotterdam is currently reclaiming 3,500 hectares and the port of Helsinki is moving part of its port but that is not the norm. There is a world-wide shortage of port capacity. Last October a total of 72 ships was anchored off Los Angeles-Frisco because the port could not cater for them. Container traffic is growing rapidly. Over the next ten years it is estimated the numbers of containers in use world-wide will grow by 82% in the ten-year period.

I do not wish to repeat myself but I am not at liberty to talk about this issue and I did not envisage a question on this subject being posed by the committee. I am happy to return to the committee as soon as the other matters such as those being dealt with by the Office of the Attorney General are settled. I assure the committee there is no net loss of land to the port. Operational land——

Does this mean the company will give it out on a 99-year lease?

Mr. Connellan

No.

It is impossible to give away 33 acres with no net loss of land.

Mr. Connellan

I did not say we were going to give away any land.

I wish to pursue the issue of the long leases. We all accept and understand there is under-utilisation by existing tenants of some of the land. What is the nature of the proposal made to Government? Does the company intend to terminate those leases or is it considering compulsory purchase?

Ms O'Leary has elucidated the legal issues. Does the company accept there is a problem in terms of ownership in applying under the Foreshore Acts? How does it see the future situation and sequence of events in terms of the EIS, the application of the Foreshore Acts and the application for planning permission that might follow?

The company will be aware of the overwhelming opposition to this proposal among people in Clontarf. At least one of the reasons for this opposition must be that people do not know when it will stop. The company has acknowledged it works to a commercial mandate which is to make as much profit and bring as much business as possible through Dublin Port. Nobody seems to be doing what was referred to in the submission which was to consider the bigger picture and try to marry the various uses of the bay. The company could well say this is a matter for Government and that it is not its business to look at other issues besides growing the port and making as much money as possible.

It seems the application has disappeared into a deep black hole. There is no response from Government other than it is considering the issues since the EIS was put together three years ago. I assume the company is getting a response because this committee is not. I am interested in hearing the company's views on the future and whether it has received any feedback.

Mr. Connellan referred to an expected growth of 82% in container traffic over the next ten years. I am speaking from a local point of view, from the immediate area of the port. Statistics from a number of years ago showed 7,000 trucks per day using Dublin Port. How will this traffic impact in the period up to 2007? Is the Dublin Port Company confident the Dublin Port tunnel will be capable of dealing with the increased volumes?

I wish to address a question to Dublin Bay Watch. Has any environmental study of the area around the proposed port in Drogheda been carried out?

Mr. O’Dwyer

The first question was about the support enjoyed by Dublin Bay Watch. We have had four public meetings at this stage, at which the lowest attendance was 400 people and the highest attendance was 600 people. Therefore, we have had widespread support. When the first application was put forward, we were able to generate 2,000 objections within a 30 day period. We had a gap of 30 days to put those into play. This shows we have had major support from the residents associations, not only in the vicinity of Clontarf but in the wider area on the northside because people view what is proposed as a loss of an amenity.

Regarding the productivity figures presented, I would be happy to release the report on them to the members. We went to the trouble of commissioning an independent report on this matter. Mr. Connellan will supply members with a copy of that. Mr. Nolan will deal with the problem of flooding.

The EPA stated clearly that there is not enough known about the tidal change within estuaries. Therefore, its recommendation is that no more in infill should take place in an estuary because of the risk of flooding. That is the position in a nutshell.

Mr. Connellan

The EIS deals with the tidal problems and it states that there are none. I am not qualified to state whether flooding will occur. The international experts who have been assigned to the job know what they are doing.

Who has seen the EIS, given that it is not a public document?

Mr. Connellan

I was amazed to hear that the representatives of the National Parks and Wildlife Service have not seen it. It has been with the Department for a long time, as the Chairman will be aware.

Has Mr. Connellan had an indication as to whether it was deemed to be adequate?

Mr. Connellan

It has been made available publicly. For instance, I believe my friends in Dublin Bay Watch have had it for a number of years.

Is Mr. Connellan referring to the current EIS?

Mr. Connellan

Yes.

As far as we are aware, the independent consultants' report on the current EIS has been on the Minister's desk for three years. The most recent information we received under the freedom of information legislation from the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources slates the current EIS. The officials from the Department advise that this application should be rejected. We have asked for a copy of this report but we have not received it, yet it has been on the Minister's desk for three years.

It is not publicly available.

No, it is not.

I do not have a copy of it either.

Mr. Connellan

Anybody present is welcome to a copy of it, as we have many copies of it.

I thank Mr. Connellan for that. If anyone else would like one, they can get one.

Are we speaking about the EIS?

Yes, the 2002 application.

We are speaking about the independent consultants' report on the EIS, which has not been made available to the public. We have asked for it but it has not been given to us. I understand the consultants are based in Cork. We got snippets from the report from officials of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources going back as far as 30 May 2002. They slate the current EIS and advise that the application should be rejected. Effectively, they are saying that the port company wants to have its cake and eat it. One page of the report contradicts another. That is all the information on it we have received since May 2002.

Mr. Connellan

Senator McDowell asked about the feedback we got. Regrettably it is the same as what he got.

Does Mr. Connellan believe that happened because the Department has not told the company what it thinks of the EIS?

Mr. Connellan

No, it has not told us.

Has the company had no response from it? We have all got hints that it is not happy with the EIS but there is nothing on record to state it is not acceptable.

Mr. Connellan

I have nothing on record either.

We received a brief outlook on the current EIS from the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources on 13 May 2002. The independent consultants' report was due to be on the Minister's desk in the August of that year. Therefore, it has been on his desk for three years. If anybody wants a copy of this document, I can supply a copy of it. It slates the current EIS.

Ms O’Leary

We have been informed the State solicitor's office has been in contact with the port about the ownership issue. The application is based on ownership. Therefore, it is not true to say there has been no reaction from the State bodies when there has been.

Have the representatives from Dublin Port Company anything to say about the ownership issue?

Mr. Connellan

We are satisfied that we own the foreshore but that is not the issue. The issue is that Dublin Port Company is operating at capacity. The port is a national resource. The economy we serve will be in crisis if the main issue is not addressed. If people want to be faced with another Dublin Airport scenario, that is fine. It is not Dublin Port Company's job to decide whether to expand Dublin Port; that is for other people to decide. That needs to be debated rationally.

I intended to address my question to Dr. Craig and Mr. Kelly. While I am mindful that the EIS would have gone to a different Department, does their Department keep a watching brief on developments that may affect areas, such as SPAs or other designated areas, that come under their remit? Has the Department had a chance to examine the environmental impact statement for this project?

We have discussed the expansion of other ports, north and south of Dublin, such as those in Arklow, Wicklow, Greenore and Drogheda. Do the representatives have concerns about the impact of the expansion of the other ports on the flora and fauna, an area that comes under their remit? I assume they would because part of the area around Drogheda Port would be designated. Do they have a view where conflict is most likely to arise in terms of the receiving environment due to the expansion of port facilities?

I wish to return to the issue of the site it is proposed to dispose of for the provision of a conference centre and complementary commercial development. Mr. Connellan said he is not at liberty to answer questions I and other member asked him about that matter. I do not understand why he cannot answer the questions I asked him which were purely factual and in respect of which I made no comment. I want to know how many acres of land is it proposed to dispose of, in general, what terms were agreed and how this matter arose. I do not understand why the answers to those questions cannot be provided to the committee. In respect of Mr. Connellan's response that he is not at liberty to answer those questions, is he under instruction not to answer them? In what respect is he not at liberty to do so?

In view of the discussions on foreshore licences and ownership, will the representatives advise what discussions or applications have been made to the local authority? Where does the local authority come into the equation in terms of what the port company proposes and in regard to discussions on ownership? What is the history of that? What is the process that must be gone through?

In view of the statistics presented forecasting an 82% growth in containerised transport over the next ten years, what plans, if any, has the company to relocate empty containers in the port, or is it intended to continue to operate under the current system? If that is the intention, do the representatives consider it is a good use of the land of Dublin Port to keep empty containers at a location which will be competing to attract a greater number of cruise liners to this country? Given that there will be an increase in containerised transport, this will lead to a major increase in the number of empty containers kept in the port, but the company is also seeking to increase the number of cruise liners that will come to this country, which is a worthwhile and laudable exercise. Are those two developments compatible?

I will start with the questions addressed to the National Parks and Wildlife Services.

Dr. Craig

The first question, put by Deputy Cuffe, was concerned about whether the National Parks and Wildlife Services had the opportunity to examine the EIS. As a statutory consultee in relation to heritage issues, EISs are referred to us in a formal context for a licensing or planning application or some such. No such reference has been made, so we have not seen the current EIS in so far as I am aware. In the nature of our work, staff might sometimes see documents in draft or have sight of material that has not yet been formally referred to us. However, that has not happened either. I am not aware that any of our staff have had sight of the current EIS that has been referred to.

Before answering the Deputy's second question as regards other ports, it might be correct to reply, although Deputy McCormack has left, to a question that he asked. This was generally about compatibility between active ports and conservation areas. That might provide a general context, to some extent, and then I will come to the specifics of Deputy Cuffe's question.

Deputy McCormack essentially asked whether these various types of designated conservation areas are compatible with an active port. Clearly, active ports are compatible with high nature conservation values in their immediate vicinity and sometimes even within the ports themselves. Certainly, as regards immediate vicinity, Dublin Bay, including Bull Island is an outstanding example of that. When it comes to designating conservation areas, both under the habitats directive and the birds directive, we must stick to scientific criteria. That means we designate good examples of the habitats listed in the habitats directive and areas used by significant populations by the bird species listed in the annex to the birds directive. We are not allowed to be influenced by economic and social considerations as part of the designation process. This is an issue that has been taken up in many member states.

However, once an area has been designated, if there are significant developments of social, economic or other importance, these must be assessed in terms of their impact on the designated areas. In that context there is no incompatibility between designated areas and active ports. Nevertheless, clearly designated areas can be a constraint on port expansion in particular. That has been the case, to some extent, around Europe.

The procedures lay down, however, that exceptionally, for reasons of overriding importance and public interest generally — not necessarily port development — it is possible for national authorities to allow a development to proceed, even if there are significant impacts under the birds or habitats directives. This must, however, be in the absence of realistic alternatives and with appropriate compensatory measures, which in the context of birds, for example, might require the actual provision of alternative habitats as good as those being lost to development. In that general context as regards other ports, in general many of the ports around the coast of Ireland have high nature conservation values in their vicinities. In specific terms, Drogheda does. This is possibly the only case where the issue of actual provision of compensatory measures for development taking place within the port, has been formally invoked. We could not say, however, in any general way that the development of a port might be better from a conservation viewpoint at one location or another. We would simply say that the proper procedures must be followed to ensure that implications are assessed and decisions taken in the light of appropriate assessment.

What communications have the National Parks and Wildlife Services had with the Commission as regards the complaint by Dublin Baywatch?

Dr. Craig

The EU Commission has taken the subject of the complaint seriously and has incorporated it in a court case being taken against Ireland as regards the implementation of the birds directive. There are a number of specifics. I do not want the committee to form the impression that it is a court case about Dublin Bay and designation relating to it. That is simply one quite specific element out of a number — on the detailed legal provisions for transposition of the directive — where the Commission had some concerns as regards implementation and the fact that we have not as yet designated sufficient special protection areas for some particular species of birds. That is one of the elements in the court case, which we will be defending in the European Court.

I will answer that from a piece of correspondence from the EU Commission. This said that Dublin Bay was just one of a large number of sites referred to. Other examples included Cork Harbour and Shannon. The principal issue arising as regards Dublin Bay was the rationale for the exclusion of certain areas of the bay, notably the area proposed for infill beside Dublin Port. This rationale did not appear to take proper account of the appropriate safeguarding of a complete wetland system.

That says it, in a nutshell. No scientific evidence was ever produced for the exclusion of lands from the proposed specially protected area, originally. The Ombudsman has confirmed that, and now that our case has gone to the European Court, I believe that clarifies the situation.

Does Dr. Craig want to reply to that?

Dr. Craig

I believe I should. Ireland, in terms of the European Court, does not accept the arguments and will be arguing against that assertion in court. We have recorded the scientific reasons as to why, when a mapping defect was brought to our attention we examined the matter. We considered whether the area of open water that had been inadvertently included in the proposed designated area actually was of significance for birds. We got advice from our expert at the time and that is on record. The Ombudsman, quite validly, recorded that the procedures in our documentation at the time were insufficient and that concern was addressed.

As regards the scientific evidence, on 13 July 1999, a so-called map was published. On 15 July the Dublin Port company received a copy of a revised map that no one else was privy to until nine months later when this SPA was signed into law. Nobody was given any right to object to it because the three months were up. What scientific studies could have been done from 13 to 15 July to exclude that? Oscar J. Merne, who is being referred to, states clearly on 16 July, that all intertidal parts of Dublin Bay must qualify as an SPA. If they must qualify on 16 July, they would have qualified on 15, 14, 13 and 12 July. Why was it changed within the space of 48 hours? No scientific evidence was ever produced for that anomaly within the SPA. Those are the facts.

We will leave that question hanging there. Are there any other issues which Dublin Bay Watch wishes to respond to?

Mr. O’Dwyer

There are no other issues. Mr. Connellan summed up the situation quite well. This is a national issue. It is not just about Dublin Port and Dublin. It is ultimately the responsibility of the Government because it fits within the national development plan and the national spatial strategy. An infill of the bay does not fit, under any circumstances, within those particular plans which the Government is putting into place at present. The Government needs to take action on Bremore, Drogheda, Arklow and other ports to ensure proper infrastructure is in place to enable Ireland to develop its import and export business.

What discussions have taken place on this issue with the local authority over the past five to ten years?

It is my understanding that Dublin City Council has prepared a development plan which includes specific provisions on the port.

Mr. O’Dwyer

As I do not currently have information on that issue, I cannot answer the question.

Dublin City Council has a role to play in all this.

Ms O’Leary

Under the latest Planning and Development Act one must obtain permission for an infill. This was not the case beforehand when the city council only dealt with existing land as opposed to proposals for infill. The position has now changed and planning permission is required for an infill and for any planned development on an infill site.

Is it correct that the council will not adjudicate on this matter until foreshore issues are resolved? Is Mr. Connellan aware of the position?

Mr. Connellan

Yes, but I am just as confused as the Senator.

I am not confused.

Mr. Connellan

It is written into the city development plan that Dublin City Council supports the development of Dublin Port. How this is translated into action is another story. My Department informs me that there are two separate processes which can run in parallel. One process involves obtaining permissions under sections 10 and 13 or some other avenue, depending on whether one owns the land. The other involves applying for full planning permission to the city council. That is my understanding of the processes.

I propose to address a couple of other questions before I forget. I understand 9,000 trucks pass through Dublin Port each day. I am satisfied they will not all use Dublin Port tunnel. For example, trucks exceeding height and width restrictions and the 30% of trucks which do not travel in the direction of the port will not use the tunnel. I am concerned about the ability of the M50 to cope with these trucks. This returns us to questions concerning Bremore and other ports. If one only develops Bremore, trucks will still have to return through the tunnel because they will serve Dublin.

In view of the fact that representatives of Dublin Port have been unable to answer questions put to them in respect of the disposal of the site connected with the conference centre, I propose that the joint committee write to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government requesting that papers related to this matter and in the possession of the Department be made available to it.

I am conscious that, as Chairman, I have allowed considerable flexibility in dealing with this issue given that our brief is environmental matters. I am also conscious that the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources is examining the wider issue of port development, including Dublin Port. I am in the hands of the committee on this issue. I do not see any legal reason preventing the joint committee from seeking the information Deputy Gilmore mentioned by way of correspondence, if it is so agreed.

I request that the joint committee make such a request.

That concludes our deliberations. I am not sure the joint committee received the answers it needs on capacity in Dublin Port, particularly in regard to the proposed sale of a 32 acre site for a national convention centre. More questions were raised than answered and the joint committee will continue to pursue the matter. I thank all three delegations for making themselves available to the joint committee and for their contributions.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 11 October 2005.

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