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Joint Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Jun 2013

Housing and Sustainable Communities Agency: Discussion with Chairman Designate

I remind members to switch off their mobile phones as they cause interference with the broadcasting system. Apologies have been received from Senators Labhrás Ó Murchú and Ned O'Sullivan.

During the first part of our meeting we will be discussing the nomination of Mr. Conor Skehan as chairman designate of the Housing and Sustainable Communities Agency. I welcome Mr. Skehan to the meeting.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also draw their attention to the fact that their opening statements and other documents supplied to the committee will be published on the committee's website following this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise nor make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The Housing and Sustainable Communities Agency manages the transfer of land to local authorities under the land aggregation scheme. It also sources properties under the social housing leasing initiative. I am interested in hearing Mr. Skehan's views on the scheme and initiatives and how he proposes to develop or amend those during his tenure in office. I note from the agency's website that its vision is to make a real difference to people's lives by promoting sustainable communities. Mr. Skehan might elaborate on that vision, which is an issue close to the hearts of many members of the committee. The development of sustainable communities is an issue close to all of our hearts. I now invite Mr. Skehan to make his presentation.

Mr. Conor Skehan

I thank the joint committee for this opportunity. I am new to the agency, which is also relatively new and is a combination of previously existing agencies. From what I have learned during the past month, the agency has already established a clear and valued role in the provision of a more sustainable housing system. Officials from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government have told me it is the go-to agency for them.

Following investigation, I have determined that the agency has an extremely well-articulated system of values that guide its delivery and is committed to service and accountability. If my nomination is confirmed, I will be proud to be associated with those values. I have also looked at the agency's governance system and found that there are good governance systems in place which establish clear evidence-based objectives in the fields of promotion and delivery of housing and innovation, supporting management in good housing practice and providing policy advice on research on housing. The agency is committed to a high level of performance. Everything I have seen to date suggests that this is the type of organisation which, if my nomination is confirmed, I would be proud to work with. I would see my role principally as ensuring the agency receives the support and resources necessary to achieve these objectives.

The approach I propose to take will be dominated by the lessons I have learned from the previous roles entrusted to me by various Governments. Those lessons include, to listen to stakeholders and to take an ears open and mouth shut approach in the first instance.

Mr. Conor Skehan

I also intend to ensure that when issues arise, they are framed quickly to ensure they become solutions rather than problems and, as I hope I am doing today, to speak truth to power, which is to ensure things that need to be said are said early and to ensure what people need to hear, which is not always what they want to hear, is said quickly, clearly and acted upon quickly and decisively.

Housing is too central to the economy of our country and the lives of our citizens to be left unattended. Our economy has been almost ruined by the replacement of home making by house building. The housing agency will play a role in ensuring this set of circumstances does not recur. Through analysis and expert, early, honest and public advice the agency has the potential to help ensure we do not again make the mistakes that cost all of us dearly. Through the encouragement of prudence, compassion, fairness and foresight, the agency can also ensure all households have access to good quality housing appropriate to their household circumstances and in the particular community of their choice. The agency has a role to play in making this happen. If my nomination is confirmed, I will be proud to contribute to that.

I will take questions or advice from members.

I welcome Mr. Skehan to the meeting and wish him well. Perhaps he would elaborate more on the purpose of the Housing and Sustainable Communities Agency, where it is located, its staff and role.

Mr. Conor Skehan

The agency is an amalgam of a number of former agencies which provided advice, practical and policy, to Government. It was established in 2010, mainly to work with and support local authorities, housing bodies and the Department in the delivery of housing and housing services, and to do so principally through facilitating them with their housing functions, advising on policy and policy implementation. The agency also carries out research on housing policy and does so with scarce resources. It includes a number of technical experts who provide technical and regeneration services and also underwrite loans for house purchases. The agency currently comprises 33 staff representative of the core of expertise inherited from the previous agencies. It recently moved to a new premises.

As I said earlier, I was pleased to learn from my initial contact with the agency that it has in place good, well-thought out governance, a clearly articulated set of values and a strategic plan. Essentially, it is a fantastic vehicle with the engine running and the door open. On a more detailed level, I have examined current levels of activity at the agency and can go into that in more detail at this point, if the Deputy wishes.

Information on the heads of the areas of activity would be useful.

Mr. Conor Skehan

The agency is currently preparing advice to the sector on the mortgage arrears resolution process, MARP, local authority shared ownership schemes, the social housing leasing initiative and capital allowance leasing facilities. It has been involved with NAMA through the special purpose vehicle, the National Asset Residential Property Services Limited, NARPS. It is also engaged in the land aggregation scheme which is examining lands from that source. It is providing advice on the rent framework for the local authorities, providing current updates of housing need assessments, and has updated its housing manual, which is widely used by practitioners in this area. It also provides assistance in regard to housing assistance payments and loan underwriting services.

In terms of technical work, the agency includes a team of architects, planners and quantity surveyors who are involved in regeneration and refurbishment projects, surveys, planning, studies and related work. It has a small number of extremely well-regarded researchers in the field who are currently working on fields as diverse as Traveller accommodation, homelessness and housing for people with a disability.

They are providing research and specific reports on the rental index for the Private Residential Tenancies Board and a review of shared-ownership schemes. It is a busy agency into the middle of which I am being dropped. It is a whirlwind of activity, which is constantly being referred to by the Department and whose advice is constantly sought. It is a real privilege to have the potential to be involved in an agency like that.

Mr. Skehan is very welcome. We know each other from the preparation of the Kildare county development plan, on the environmental aspects of which he advised not so long ago. I know he is a sceptic on climate change which is an obvious place to start on the question of what is his concept of a sustainable community. Clearly, sustainability can be environmental, social and economic. I see things like linking land use and transportation planning with greening as incredibly important to sustainable communities. I would welcome Mr. Skehan's thoughts on that. I have been put in the anti-camp over the years and labelled as being against all development, which is not, of course, the case, on foot of my views on planning communities as opposed to building willy-nilly. I make no apology for having taken that approach over decades at this stage. It is an issue that is important to me in terms of the direction the housing agency will be taking. Mr. Skehan has a long-term connection with Fine Gael as an adviser. I presume that has been an entirely professional relationship and that he is not a member of the party. My job is to undertake a bit of scrutiny, which is why I wanted to refer to that.

The agency will clearly have a relationship with NAMA. One of the concerns we have is that there is quite a high vacancy rate around the country, which is not necessarily matched to those areas in which housing is needed. How does Mr. Skehan perceive that being dealt with? From a planning perspective and county development plans, does Mr. Skehan have guidance in terms of what should be included to green communities? The greening question is important given that Mr. Skehan has differing views from me on the climate change issue. There are other issues, including advice on shared-ownership loans and rent supplement, which it will probably be more appropriate to address after Mr. Skehan has spent time in the agency. I would welcome Mr. Skehan providing the committee with a broad view on where he is coming from.

Mr. Conor Skehan

I thank Deputy Murphy for sparing me having to answer detailed questions before I have spent time in the agency. If there is anything the agency can do to come back with information to the committee, we would be more than happy to make ourselves available.

Deputy Murphy has got to the heart of the issue on housing. Traditionally, there has been a tragedy in so many sectors to do with our built environment where things are looked at in silos rather than horizontally. These include the issues to which Deputy Murphy referred in regard to sustainable communities and the location of houses. Their planning and connection to shops and bus routes are as important as the provision of the bricks and mortar and the roofs over people's heads. Real sustainable development is about the totality of the energy commitments someone makes because of his or her choice of where to live. In Deputy Murphy's own constituency there is plenty of difficult-to-reach newly built housing estates which are well outside the bounds of existing settlements. We now see that people are committed to highly unsustainable modes of transportation to get themselves to basic facilities. In turn, those issues have deep, long-term implications as communities age and have less access to mobility. A deep part of moving forward with good planning of housing is to consider the real life cycle, not just of a house but of its residents. We must ensure that people's homes are fit for purpose for the entire cycle of their lives. We discovered in work I participated in at the DIT that the majority of people who are over 45 years of age are already living in the house in which they are going to die. Very few of those people when they bought their house had considerations other than how near they might be to their children's schools. In fact, they should have been thinking about how dependent or independent they might be in the absence of a car in regard to social services etc., when driving became more difficult.

On vacancies and the potential role of NAMA, I have been briefed that there is detailed interaction taking place between the agency and NAMA to examine those issues, including land banks. The papers being prepared for board meetings show that detailed, ongoing and lively discussions are taking place on those issues. The core issue with NAMA, as Deputy Murphy well knows, is that the overbuilding of housing took place where there was never going to be any demand. Those parts of the country east of the Deputy's constituency are areas where the greatest demand already exists. We are already seeing through increased rents housing pressures building up in east Leinster, where 50% of the population lives. There are no broad-brush solutions that can be applied equally across the State. A great deal of prudence and evidence is going to be required moving forward. One of the delights of the housing agency is that it comes closest to the type of thing we see in governance in Britain where think tanks advise on policy on the basis of real evidence. It is the closest equivalent I have come across here to that type of independent, evidence-based, research-led facility being available to the Government. Hopefully, it will make a contribution towards helping to avoid the mistakes we have made in the past. Perhaps we will have a more sensible approach to housing in the future.

The intimidating thing about the agency is that it is full of people who know a great deal more about housing than me and who probably always will. All I can do is be the conductor of an orchestra which includes a group of very bright, talented and hard-working people. If I can do that, I will be doing my job well.

I welcome Mr. Skehan to the committee and wish him well with his appointment. It is early days for him and the new agency but he will agree that it will play an important role on oversight, independent advice and co-ordination of housing and sustainability policy.

Mr. Skehan mentioned planning earlier and much of what happens now will be retrospective and reactive to the bad planning that occurred nationally. Mr. Skehan is charged with bringing forward advice based on research on how to make communities more sustainable, which is very important. He will liaise with other agencies, including the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland and others, which have done good ground work. It is important the work which has been done is co-ordinated in a consistent fashion. For example, there is a great deal of inconsistency across local authorities on housing policy. While I recognise that there are varying demands on different local authorities in areas like Traveller accommodation and homelessness, I ask Mr. Skehan to examine the existing housing stock of all local authorities in some research document at some stage. What is the age of that stock, how sustainable is it and how amenable is it to future needs in the context of projected demographic change? There are new social demands on local authorities, which are not building houses anymore. There will be an important role for the agency in that context to bring forward advice on how to meet those demands.

There has been a great deal of inconsistency and a failure to develop work on housing, transport, education and sustainable living within communities. The agency might have a role to play in developing shared solutions across different agencies. One thinks of energy and renewable technology, about which we speak a great deal now.

In the midlands alone, there are proposals for new wind farms but they are proving quite controversial. There are also ancient or old hydropower schemes. In Portlaw in County Waterford, more than 300 kW of power was generated in my community in the 1800s. Zero kilowatts of hydropower are being generated in that community today. They are the kind of areas this committee and the Housing and Sustainable Communities Agency need to look at to resurrect these technologies that were there before and to integrate them into communities again.

I welcome Mr. Skehan's appointment and wish him well. I look forward to him coming back when he has had a chance to put his feet under the table, do some research and bring forward tangible advice of which we can all take account.

Mr. Conor Skehan

I thank Deputy Coffey for his welcome. One of the key things I spoke about at the start was listening. The role of the chair is to listen. Obviously, the agency has a role in advising, but part of that advice is to listen to and gather advice from the likes of this committee, so I would very much like the opportunity to come back in future to receive challenges in particular. Returning to the last set of issues raised by the Deputy, for example, the new social demands relating to renewable energy, it is very appropriate that something like the Housing and Sustainable Communities Agency is a focus for challenges for public representatives to demand better, demand more and demand innovation. That is the type of relationship I would like to foster between the agency and public representatives of all types. If there is any opportunity in the future to come back when I have more experience, to take some advice and soundings and to be open to challenges, I would welcome it. That is a very important part of ensuring the agency is accountable and effective.

I welcome Mr. Skehan to the meeting. I apologise for the fact that I was not here for the earlier part of the meeting. I was at another meeting. When Deputy Catherine Murphy was speaking, I thought for a minute that it was the Mahon tribunal all over again.

Could Deputy Bannon direct his comments to Mr. Skehan? Do not mind Deputy Murphy. She is able to look after herself. Deputy Bannon should put his questions to Mr. Skehan.

The Mahon tribunal was one of the most damning verdicts on the State and its involvement in housing over the years and exposed a web of corruption in the building industry. I know a planning Bill relating to the Mahon tribunal has been on the clár of the Dáil for quite some time. Would it be beneficial if this planning Bill were brought forward and dealt with? It would be helpful to Mr. Skehan in his new role.

There is the fiasco of housing developments being pulled down, for example, Gleann Riada in my county of Longford. I am sure Mr. Skehan is aware of it. This estate was badly constructed and has cost this State a huge amount of money. Unfinished estates throughout the country are being refurbished, which is costing the State a fortune. I know NAMA is involved and has said it will purchase more than 2,000 properties for social housing, but it is important that people are vetted for those houses. Ordinary decent people have purchased houses in housing estates and some agencies responsible for housing have purchased houses alongside those houses and put in the wrong type of clientele, thus forcing out of those estates people who have paid a considerable price for their houses. This is a significant problem in some parts of the country and is something we do not want to see happen. Yesterday, I heard of a situation in County Westmeath where a young man on a kidney dialysis machine who bought a house and is paying back a huge mortgage was forced out of his home by thugs on either side of him. He had to rent private accommodation in another village. We do not want to see this type of carry-on continuing.

The vetting of people for social housing needs to be looked at because it is unfair on the ordinary decent person who purchased their house and is in dire straits paying back the mortgage. I know it is a small percentage of people who are causing havoc but this type of carry-on must be eliminated and I would like to see a new approach used in vetting people who are homeless. It is the same people, and it is only a few, who move into an estate and wreck their accommodation. At the stroke of a pen, officers within a local authority or agency move them on to another part of the country to create havoc in that area.

Mr. Conor Skehan

This is another instance of the type of role that I can provide if the nomination is confirmed. I learned the hard way from my work with the Peatlands Council that there is the potential to communicate with people on the ground, come across real experiences day to day and ensure the work that is being done both by officials and agencies is required. It would be part of the remit I would give myself, which is to make myself available to the likes of public representatives to hear from them, ideally on the ground in their constituency. There is no substitute for going to see the issues on the ground to make sure the agencies are addressing the issues experienced as major problems on the ground. I welcome the opportunity to see at first hand the type of experience described by Deputy Bannon if the nomination is confirmed.

Sin deireadh leis an iniúchadh ar an ábhar sin. That concludes our consideration. I propose we notify the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government that we have concluded our consideration of his nomination of chairperson designate of the Housing and Sustainable Communities Agency, Mr. Conor Skehan. Is that agreed? Agreed. Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an Uasal Skehan as cabhrú linn le linn ár bplé anseo inniu. Bhí an díospóireacht suimiúil agus guím gach rath air ina phost nua. I wish Mr. Skehan the very best of luck.

Mr. Conor Skehan

Go raibh míle maith agat.

Molaim go gcuirfimid an cruinniú ar fionraí are feadh cupla nóiméad. Tiocfaimid ar ais i seisiún poiblí.

Sitting suspended at 4.45 p.m. and resumed at 4.50 p.m.
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