JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 18 Nov 2003

Vol. 1 No. 50

Visit of Delegation from Cypriot Parliament.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Demetris Christofias, MP, and President of the House of Representatives of the Cypriot Parliament. He is accompanied by Mr. Demetris Syllouris, MP, Mr. Aristophanes Georgiou, MP, Mr. Nicos Pittokopitis, MP, and Mr. George Varnava, MP. The delegation is also accompanied by the Secretary General of the House of Representatives and the Deputy Director General of the Foreign Relations Service of the House of Representatives.

The delegation has already met the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Roche, and visited the Institute of European Affairs. Tomorrow it will meet representatives of the Government and the Opposition.

Members should be aware that this committee had intended to make an official visit to Cyprus at the invitation of President Tassos Papadopoulos, when he was chairman of the European affairs committee. However, due to pressures of work we have been unable to undertake the visit. Members of this committee have regularly expressed interest in the progress of negotiations instigated by the UN to secure a comprehensive settlement in Cyprus. It is a cause of concern that the negotiations have broken down at such a critical time. The Secretary General of the UN has called for a clear indication of political will from both sides before negotiations can resume. The Irish Government has offered its encouragement to the parties the demonstrate the political will to enable resumption of the UN process in time to enable the accession of a united Cyprus on 1 May 2003. We all look forward to this.

I invite Mr. Demetris Christofias to address the committee.

Mr. Demetris Christofias

We are very happy to have been invited to visit the Republic of Ireland. We already had a very fruitful exchange of opinions and we shall try our best to develop further parliamentary exchanges between our parliaments and develop a friendly relationship between the Republic of Ireland and the Republic of Cyprus.

I fully agree with the Chairman's introduction. We are very glad that during Ireland's Presidency the accession of ten new countries to the European Union will be fulfilled on 1 May. On the other hand, as members know, Cyprus faces its national problem, by which I mean the invasion and occupation for 30 years by Turkish troops of 37% of the island. Since then we have tried our best to solve the problem according to the UN resolutions on Cyprus. There was a high level agreement between the late President Makarios and the Turkish Cypriot leader Rauf Denktash, who is still the leader of the Turkish Cypriot community, to transfer the unitary state, the Republic of Cyprus, into a bi-zonal, bi-communal and federal state.

Before the invasion and occupation, there never existed in Cyprus the natural conditions for federation. Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots were mixed throughout the island. Only after the occupation and the withdrawal of 165,000 Greek Cypriots from their homes and properties and the removal of Turkish Cypriots by force from the southern part of the country to the northern occupied area, did President Makarios take the courageous decision to accept the transformation of the unified state into a bi-zonal, bi-communal and federal state, giving the opportunity to the Turkish Cypriots to live concentrated in the northern part under Turkish Cypriot administration. A precondition was that the Greek Cypriots would have the right to choose if they wanted to return to their homes and properties under Turkish Cypriot administration.

Since then, following the initiatives of the Secretary General of the United Nations, Mr. Kofi Annan, we had round table talks to try to achieve an overall settlement of the Cyprus problem. The Greek Cypriot side is consistent in seeking a bi-zonal, bi-communal federal solution. Unfortunately, for many years the Turkish Cypriot leader, Mr. Denktash, has insisted on having two sovereign separate states in Cyprus. This is something unnatural for Cypriot conditions. This is why when sitting around the table last year we failed to negotiate an overall solution on the basis of the new plan of the Secretary General of the United Nations.

Unfortunately, we faced a deadlock because of this rejectionist policy of the Turkish Cypriot leader despite the fact that the challenge for the accession of Cyprus into the European Union for both Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots made the Turkish Cypriots raise their voices and demand a peaceful solution to the problem and reunification of the country on the basis of the Annan plan.

We are grateful to all members of the European Union, including Ireland, for voting positively and accepting the accession of Cyprus to the European Union. The Cypriot people are not guilty of the continuation of the division of the country. This is a challenge for the Turkish leadership if it wants to create a fashionable and democratic state in Turkey as a member of the European Union. It has to meet this challenge and move forward for a solution of the Cyprus problem. This is a demand of the Turkish leadership from both Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots based on a large majority of the leadership of both communities.

We face the final accession of Cyprus together with other countries on 1 May. We hope the Turkish leadership will change its attitude and will return to fruitful dialogue in order to solve the problem before 1 May. This is our wish. We shall continue consistently our efforts in this direction. On 14 December the Turkish Cypriots will vote for their so-called parliament. Those opposed to Mr. Denktash demand a solution and are optimistic they could win these elections. Unfortunately, last month we once again witnessed new waves of settlers being brought from Turkey, giving them the so-called citizenship, adding their names to the electoral register and changing the balance between the Turkish Cypriots who want to end a division of the country because they do not want to be outside the Union and not to have the possibility to get the fruits of Cyprus's membership of the European Union.

I thank members for their attention and for attending this meeting. My colleagues and I will respond to any questions.

Chairman

Before I call on Deputy Carey, who has indicated he wishes to contribute, I wish to thank Mr. Christofias for his very interesting opening remarks. Ireland is looking forward to seeing Cyprus in the European Union. While we entered the European Union as a divided island, we hope Cyprus will enter as a united island and that some of the outstanding issues will be addressed.

In public there appears to be a view from official sources that the UN plan is acceptable and is to be supported but in private there appears to be a different message, that some people are happy with the status quo. They do not want the Swiss type of proposal that is being put forward. Where does the Republic of Cyprus officially stand on that? Is there full official commitment to the Kofi Annan plan, including the cantons, a rotating Presidency and the federal system? Second, on the movement of population, if there are people who do not or cannot go back to their original homes, will there be compensation for them or how will that be approached? Third, I note that Cyprus and Ireland, through our Department of Finance, have been in contact about the financial services sector. I read about hot money being invested in Cyprus from Russia and other places. I have no factual basis for saying that but what checks and balances are in place to ensure that acceptable standards exist within the banking and financial services sector in Cyprus to meet, for example, with the need to counteract terrorism, organised crime, money laundering and so on? Perhaps these questions could be addressed and then Deputy Carey will put his questions.

Mr. Christofias

Thank you for your questions, Chairman. In Cyprus there is the National Council, a body with extraordinary functions. The council was created by President Makarios to advise him on how to handle the Cyprus problem. Makarios has gone but this body still exists. Mr. Papadopoulos called upon the National Council several times after we had been informed of the Annan plan and a unanimous decision was taken that it was a good forum for further negotiations towards fulfilling an agreement to come to a final solution. We have been in consistent agreement on this position until now. Any time the UN Secretary General is willing to entertain dialogue, the Greek Cypriot side is ready for negotiations. We want changes on some aspects of the Annan plan, without taking back any of the rights or privileges for Turkish Cypriots contained in the plan. We want to make the Annan plan more functional and more workable, for the benefit of both communities and for all the people of Cyprus.

There are individuals who do not like the Annan plan. They see it as a painful concession and compromise and we have to sacrifice, as individuals, some freedoms and rights. That is a matter of fact. We took this decision to pay the price for our mistakes as regards the Turkish Cypriots in the past. We are prepared to pay the price for the incursion by the Greek junta and the fascist elements in Cyprus during 1974 before the invasion and occupation. We understand the need for this. However, in paying this price we want to achieve a state that will be functional and viable, in which conditions will be created for future prosperity for our children and grandchildren. That is our vision.

Some people do not want the plan because there are restrictions, for example, on how Greek Cypriot refugees may return to their homes and property. Some people are not going to return. In fact, there are people who insist on their right to return after 15 years and so on. These people are reacting but in fact the great majority are in favour of the Annan solution, taking into account the fact that continued occupation brings more and more settlers from Turkey, forcing Turkish Cypriots to leave Cyprus because there are no political, economic and socially just conditions available through which they may build and develop their lives. They leave for Britain, for example, because there is a large community of Greek and Turkish Cypriots there. About half the population of Cyprus currently resides in Britain.

A section of these people has reacted but the official Greek Cypriot side knows what it wants. We are pragmatists and we understand that we have to move through these difficulties for a solution to the Cyprus problem, if possible before the island's accession to the European Union. We do not want to give a divided Cyprus to the European Union. We want a united Cyprus, which will be creative and fruitful for the European Union at its southern end, in harmony with the EU and its new neighbours.

There is a need for discussion and we would welcome that if these people want to be compensated. Some people already have appealed to the European Court of Human Rights, demanding their rights and freedom of access to their property. Ms Loizidou, for example, has already won her case and Turkey has to pay the price in compensation and give her access to her property. Turkey has yet to implement this decision of the European Court of Human Rights.

On the third question, we have received reports from the International Monetary Fund expressing its satisfaction with the measures already taken by the Republic of Cyprus in order to face and avoid such a phenomenon. We have enacted several strict Bills through parliament on this issue. However, it is not possible for the Republic of Cyprus to control what is happening in the occupied areas of the island. That is a problem for all us, of course. It will be a problem for all of us after the accession. It is not possible for the legitimate government to control and preserve the sovereignty all the territory of the country.

Deputy Carey

I welcome the President and his colleagues and wish them a pleasant visit. I hope it will also be a fruitful one. I was lucky to visit Cyprus with a previous European affairs committee when I learned a great deal about the country. In passing, I pay tribute to the Cypriot Ambassador who has been most helpful about the question of Cyprus.

My question is similar to one raised by the Chairman. We would all prefer to see a united Cyprus accede to full EU membership on 1 May next year but, realistically, the timeframe may be too short. I would have liked to see the Annan plan, or a version of it, being implemented. I am not sure I understand the differences in interpretation between the Papadopoulos and Clarides governments.

Ireland has gone through a painful process of reconciliation, especially the communities in the Six Counties of Northern Ireland. From time to time we all engage in what is known as the blame game but this will not get anyone anywhere. Everybody is in favour of a just, lasting and peaceful solution to the problems both here and in Cyprus.

Why was the Denktash initiative on the green line not taken on board with any great enthusiasm by the Greek Cypriot side? Perhaps my impression is incorrect. Was it merely a public relations exercise by Denktash, a smokescreen to hide more fundamental issues, or was it designed to build confidence and lasting relationships?

Will Cyprus benefit to any great extent from membership of the European Union without re-unification? If Cyprus accedes as a divided country, it will prove difficult to achieve unity post-accession, as the Turkish issue will be a complicating factor.

Has the Cypriot Government been able to contribute to the debate on the New Neighbours initiative of the EU? Like Ireland, Cyprus will be on the periphery of an expanded European Union that will bring considerable challenges, not least in regard to security, migration and smuggling issues. What can Cyprus do in that respect?

Senator Ormonde

I welcome the President and the delegation. I hope they will have an enjoyable stay in Ireland. I am glad the Chairman has grouped the questions because my question follows on from that of Deputy Carey.

Speakers have identified with the problem here and we acknowledge what Cyprus is going through. It seems that there is a perception that, by agreeing to accession, the Greek Cypriots are choosing prosperity for its side and that will not be the case for the Turkish Cypriot side. Will this not reinforce the divide rather than bring the sides together? Will the group in the middle impact on Turkish aspirations in future? Is there a fear that joining the EU will result in future prosperity at the expense of a loss of culture, heritage and identity?

Senator Leyden

I welcome the President and members of Parliament. I had the great pleasure of visiting the country and am delighted that it is to join the European Union. I made sure not to visit the Turkish part of this divided island. I came across the tragedy of many citizens who are deprived of the opportunity to visit the Turkish side, even though they might have friends or relatives there. This problem must be resolved. Consideration of Turkey's application to join the European Union must be based on a resolution of the Cypriot question. It would be totally unacceptable for Turkey to join the EU without resolving this burning issue.

What happened in Cyprus was most dramatic. In spite of a great deal of the economic infrastructure being affected by the occupation of part of the island, a tremendous recovery has been achieved.

The Cypriot Ambassador, Mr. Andreas Kakouris, has been most helpful and informative to Members of this Parliament. We are well acquainted with him and he has fully briefed us on the Turkish occupation of Cyprus.

I am surprised, however, by the occupation of part of Cyprus by the British Government. I am astonished that this has been allowed. When is this force expected to leave? We hope they will leave here, in due course. I do not see this occupation as being of much benefit to Cyprus, apart from in an economic sense. Irish peacekeeping forces have served in Cyprus to the benefit of the Cypriot people.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh

I also welcome the President and the delegation. Ireland has much in common with Cyprus. We are both small countries which have been, and still are, partitioned. We are both island nations on the periphery of Europe, although we may be slightly better off after 30 years of European Union membership. We hope to give Cyprus the benefit of our mistakes and achievements of EU membership.

As an Irish republican, I take heart at the progress in the Cypriot negotiations, just as I do at progress in our peace process. The current impasse in the talks in Cyprus is regrettable. I wish Cyprus well in its aim to reintegrate Cypriot territory in a Cypriot republic. If we can be of assistance, we are more than willing to help.

Where does Cyprus see its role within an enlarged Europe? The European Union is getting quite big. I firmly believe that small nations with a common heritage and similar economic scales should create a form of alliance so that they can share their experiences and work together to ensure that they are not swamped by larger nations or larger economies. Where does Cyprus see itself, in EU terms, in the next couple of years?

Mr. Christofias

I have been asked if there has been a change in the attitude of the Greek Cypriot side to the Annan plan as a result of the change in the Government. The intentions of the new President are being considered outside Cyprus. Mr. Clerides was quite famous, but he was also very logical and moderate. He wanted a compromise. He fought for a solution to the problem in Cyprus. I want to justify this. My party was in opposition for two years after my election to the position of President of the Parliament. I was very close to Mr. Clerides for ten years. We prioritised the interests of the people and the country above those of the parties and the different classes. We tried to face the Cyprus problem and to reunify the country.

I wish to state that Mr. Clerides was a man of dialogue who sought a resolution. The fame he has outside Cyprus is real. Before the election, there was a contradiction between Mr. Papadopoulos and the forces supporting him, on the one hand, and Mr. Clerides and his party on the other hand. Our friends on the democratic right engaged in unfair pre-election behaviour. They suggested that Mr. Papadopoulos was a rejectionist, that he supports the final division of the country and that he is anti-Turk.

My party is the party of the working people. It has been a unique party on the island since its establishment in 1926. It is the party of all the people of the island. We still have members and comrades from all sectors of society, including the Turkish Cypriot, Armenian and Maronite communities and all the religious groups in Cyprus. We fought with the Turkish Cypriots to achieve rights for the working people. We have achieved certain things together. Before Britain used the doctrine of divine rule to confront the Turkish Cypriots and the Greek Cypriots, thousands of Turkish Cypriots were members of trade unions under the leadership of my party. Many Turkish Cypriots have been members and comrades until now. They have been members of the various bodies in the party.

My party has been very consistent in its approach to solving the Cyprus problem. It wants to achieve the reunification of the country by following a policy of reconciliation. At the same time, some minimum principles, which are included in the UN Security Council resolutions in respect of Cyprus, should be defended. There should be one state with a single form of sovereignty, single citizenship and a single international personality. If Mr. Papadopoulos was the politician that he has been depicted to be, my party would never have supported him. My party is convinced that he is a fashionable politician. He understands the realities, he is pragmatic and he will continue to fight for a solution of the Cyprus problem. He will not avoid the commitments made by the ex-Presidents. He is continuing in that direction.

After the withdrawal, Mr. Denktash pursued a rejectionist position in respect of the Annan plan. After this failure, Turkey was in a corner because a UN Security Council resolution was adopted on the basis of the report of the Secretary General. Turkey tried to change the picture in respect of its will, behaviour or policies. It restricted the possibility of going to the occupied area. There was a massive coming together of Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots. It is a sensitive matter. The ordinary people proved that they can live together in a peaceful and fraternal way. Despite the fact that Mr. Denktash said for many years that it is not possible for the two groups to live together, nothing happened. He had said that it would be a disaster, that there would be clashes and that people would kill each other. The people proved that this was a myth and a lie.

I do not deny that there have been clashes with Turkish Cypriots in the past, as a result of the policy of divide and rule. Chauvinistic Greek Cypriots committed crimes there against Turkish Cypriot compatriots. Chauvinistic forces in the Turkish Cypriot community also committed crimes against progressive people in their community who wanted to live in peace with the Greek Cypriots. There were problems, of course, but after the long and bitter experience of occupation and division, Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots decided that they could and would live together. This is why there were so many peaceful and wise meetings. For example, we organised a party that included a concert. We invited Mr. Livaneli, a Turkish composer and singer and Ms Farandouri, a Greek performer, to sing together for peace and conciliation in Cyprus. Some 20,000 or 25,000 Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots took part in the concert. It was a triumph of reconciliation.

Chairman

Did they sing in harmony?

Mr. Christofias

Yes, they sang in full harmony. It was a triumph of harmony and culture. We could live together.

The Greek Cypriot side unanimously accepted the measure proposed by Mr. Denktash. However, he asked that I, the President of the Parliament of the Republic of Cyprus, show my diplomatic passport and obtain a visa to enter the so-called Republic of Northern Cyprus. As ordinary people we closed our eyes. We decided we must live together with the Turkish citizens and we had to pay the price demanded. We wished to let Mr. Denktash hope the measure would give him the possibility of so-called recognition. Of course, the recognition comes internationally from other states. We do not recognise any other state in our motherland. This is why I felt painfully that I could not cross this barricade. I could not show my diplomatic passport to a so-called state.

I crossed several times previously. We are fighters for rapprochement between the two communities. This was achieved before Mr. Denktash opened the doors. Several times previously I met Turkish Cypriot compatriots in the occupied area. I addressed Turkish Cypriot audiences, journalists and politicians. They asked the occupational authority for permission for me to go to the village where I was born, grew up and became the man I am today. The authority did not grant this permission. It said "Christofias will not pass". The committee can understand how I felt but I did not surrender. We will not surrender. We will fight with our Turkish Cypriot compatriots to achieve reunification in spite of the obstacles Mr. Denktash puts in front of us.

Turkish Cypriots were invited to apply to the Minister for the Interior for passports, birth certificates and identity cards and 45,000 did so. We implemented some measures in respect of our Turkish Cypriot compatriots. Mr. Papadopoulos is not only theoretically in favour of rapprochement. As President, he has implemented measures. The Government decided to buy wheat from Turkish Cypriot producers. We made all necessary arrangements to buy their produce, but Mr. Denktash stopped them from supplying us. In considering the so-called goodwill of Mr. Denktash, one must take into account that he did this to prove it was not possible for us to live together. He hoped clashes would result and that everything would be destroyed. In fact, what has been destroyed to Mr. Denktash's fury is his contention that Greek and Turkish Cypriots cannot live together.

We shall continue in this direction. I assure the members of the joint committee that no patriot in our country will sit silently and forget Greek Cypriot refugees, Turkish Cypriots or those who have suffered in the division of the country to obtain the fruits of accession to the European Union. People in this country will be familiar with the taste of such division. We will not forget our motherland. We wish to be the masters with the Turkish Cypriots of our common motherland. It is the slogan of the Turkish Cypriot masses that the island is their motherland. This is an answer to those who want to keep the island divided.

I agree with Senator Leyden's point about the presence of British bases. Unfortunately, we are paying the price for some mistakes that were made before 1960 when we achieved independence. That independence was not full. Unfortunately, Britain was able to retain, as elsewhere, sovereign bases in a very nice place on the coast of Cyprus. Their bases are always in nice places everywhere. Until now, those bases have remained sovereign and when we accede to membership of the EU the British Government has ensured that they will remain outside the Union.

Chairman

That is very convenient.

Mr. Christofias

Of course it is. The situation is very well designed. We have been asked why we do not fight against the existence of the bases. How many fronts are we expected to open? The main front as far as Greek and Turkish Cypriots are concerned is the occupation. We must unite our efforts with those of our Turkish Cypriot compatriots to end the occupation. If the solution is workable and provides us with the opportunity to become prosperous within the framework of the European Union without new clashes or differences between Greek and Turkish Cypriots, we can then look at the British bases on the coast of Limassol. Then, we will ask the British why they are in a country that is not their motherland. Unfortunately, for both our countries, Ireland and Cyrus have a common experience.

We support Turkish accession to the European Union because if Turkey becomes a member state along with Greece and Cyprus each will be part of an arena in which the peaceful co-existence of our three peoples is possible. On the other hand, Turkey's leadership must understand that a contemporary, democratic member state of the EU cannot continue to keep under occupation another member state. I fully agree with the position expressed by Senator Leyden in this respect.

We see our role in respect of our new neighbours in the context of our history as a small country at the southern end of the European Union which has been one of the protagonists in the non-aligned movement and which has maintained a high level of friendly relations with developing countries, our Arab neighbours and with Israel. We hope to play a positive role. We wish to become a bridge between the European Union and these countries to promote political, economic and cultural relationships. In the past six months I visited Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iran and other countries in the region. All these Governments hope Cyprus will become a member of the EU. They consider Cyprus as their ambassador to the European Union.

Chairman

Does Mr. Christofias anticipate that Cyprus will join the euro zone in the near future?

Mr. Christofias

We are working towards becoming members of the euro zone in 2007. This was a unanimous decision of the parties in Government.

Chairman

The meeting has proved most interesting. Cyprus and Ireland have many things in common. Our weather, for example, is very similar. This has been a useful exchange.

The last occasion on which I visited Cyprus, I was my party's foreign affairs spokesman. While there, I received a phone call and returned home as health spokesman. I look forward to another visit but without the same consequences.

We look forward to Cyprus becoming a full member of the EU during our Presidency. We have much to learn from each other and much to contribute, together with our European Union colleagues. We take over chairmanship of COSAC from 1 December next. The first full meeting of COSAC after enlargement will take place in Dublin. We look forward to seeing the members of the delegation at that time.

Mr. Christofias

We are grateful for the opportunity to be present. I look forward to welcoming the members of the committee to Cyprus as soon as possible. I extend my best wishes for the Presidency and look forward to solving the problem of Cyprus during that time.

Chairman

We hope to make a visit during our Presidency. The Cypriot Ambassador, who is well known to us, is most active. He is here so often, he is like an honorary Senator.

Senator Leyden

We can stay with Senator Norris when we are in Cyprus.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.35 p.m. until 3.25 p.m. on Wednesday, 19 November 2003.