On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Borys Tarasyuk, Foreign Minister of the Republic of Ukraine, Ambassador Perelygin and the other officials. We are joined by members of the Irish Parliamentary Friendship Group with Ukraine, including its chairman, Deputy Charlie O'Connor. Deputies Ned O'Keeffe and James Breen are also very welcome.
This committee is pretty informal. I invite Mr. Tarasyuk to make a presentation if he so wishes. I will then open the discussion to members.
I thank the Chairman. I will first say a few words in introduction. Dia daoibh, a mhná agus a fheara. Tá áthas mór orm bheith ag caint libh ag an Dáil inniu.
I am very pleased to be here and to have the opportunity of meeting the members of the Joint Committee on European Affairs and the Irish Parliamentary Friendship Group with Ukraine. This is a special event for me. My previous visit to Dublin was in connection with this activity in my capacity as chairman of the European Integration Committee. I visited Dublin in this capacity when the COSAC conference took place in Dublin. This brought together the chairmen and representatives of the European affairs committees of the EU member states. It was a specific pleasure and honour to be invited by the then Irish Chairman of the Joint Committee on European Affairs to participate in the conference.
The reason for our visit to Dublin is to continue the political dialogue between Ukraine and Ireland. In 2004, Ukraine established its embassy in Dublin with Ambassador Perelygin. Last year my colleague, the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, visited Ukraine and later the Speaker of the Irish Parliament led a delegation to Ukraine. This is a vivid example of intensified dialogue between Ukraine and Ireland and gives grounds for saying that there is a very positive dynamic in the Ukrainian-Irish relationship.
Our delegation includes the First Deputy Minister of Culture and Tourism of Ukraine, Mr. Korniyenko, the Head of the General Directorate of the Cabinet of Ministers for the Civil Service, and Mr. Motrenko, who had a very interesting consultation in Dublin, the major purpose of which was to establish close co-operation between the civil services of Ukraine and Ireland. We in Ukraine are impressed with Ireland's achievements in economic and managerial areas. It is interesting for us to learn from Ireland's know-how and success. My delegation also includes Ambassador Ponomarenko, director general of the directorate dealing with the countries of Europe and America.
I would like to use the opportunity of the committee's kind invitation to deliver some information on my country and our expectations as regards our bilateral relationship and our relationship with the European Union. Ukraine and Ireland, surprisingly, given that one is to the far east of Europe and the other to the far west, have much in common in their history. Both countries went through delicate and unfortunate periods of famine, Ireland in the 19th century and Ukraine in the 20th, and both have waged activity for statehood and independence. Both went through difficult periods, due to which millions of Irish and Ukrainian people fled their countries to look for better job opportunities. This experience gives us grounds to understand each other better. I hope this meeting will lead to a better understanding of one another's aspirations.
Ukraine, as a European country, has European Union aspirations. We have established our foreign policy objective to one day join the European Union. Ireland, while a member of the European Union, demonstrated the ability to transform itself from being one of the lower performing countries to one of the most dynamically developing economies and societies among the family of the united Europe. We in Ukraine have great respect for what Ireland has achieved. We are greatly interested in co-operating with it and its people in order to learn from its experience.
Speaking of present day Ukraine, I must mention the Orange Revolution of the fall and winter 2004. We remember how enthusiastically the people of Ireland supported the democratic revolution in Ukraine. Today, I heard much and felt much sympathy from Irish people towards Ukraine's democratic transformation and change. The democratic transformation which began after the Orange Revolution has changed Ukrainian society and its people dramatically. We have finally said goodbye to the Soviet legacy. Ukraine has emerged as a different country, one which is a reliable and consistent partner of the united Europe.
Last year alone, in co-operation with the European Union, we achieved much more than we had achieved for years. We received market economy status during the Ukraine-EU summit on 1 December last year, decided to launch negotiations concerning a free trade area with the European Union and entered negotiations concerning visa facilitation for Ukrainian citizens. In addition, we have decided to enter new negotiations concerning the future framework agreement between Ukraine and the European Union.
We have different views on what kind of document that agreement will be. The European Union sees it as an enhanced agreement between Ukraine and the Union whereas we in Ukraine have a different approach and think it should be a European agreement on association with a clear prospect of membership. However, these differences cannot preclude us from close co-operation on implementing the action plan signed last February between Ukraine and the European Union. In any case, we must begin negotiations concerning the future framework agreement because the current partnership and co-operation agreement will expire at the beginning of 2008.
The new democratic Ukraine has begun to demonstrate an active foreign policy with a new philosophy and emphasis. One part of the new emphasis in that policy is the emphasis on the promotion of democracy and human rights. Ukraine is different today and nobody can say it is like what it was before the end of 2004. It has no problems concerning the mass media or freedom of speech. We look forward to yet another test of the new Ukrainian democracy in the forthcoming parliamentary and local elections due to take place on 26 March.
I take this opportunity to extend an invitation to Members of the Irish Parliament to participate in the monitoring mission to observe the elections in Ukraine. For our part, President Yushchenko, the guarantor of the constitution of Ukraine in accordance with that constitution, extended an invitation to all international observers to come to Ukraine to observe the elections. He guarantees that the elections in Ukraine, for the first time in modern history, will be fair, free and democratic. For this purpose, he issued a decree establishing a mechanism to ensure the elections would be fair, free and democratic. This will be yet another test for Ukrainian democracy. Should we pass this test successfully, we will have the right to put on the agenda of the Ukraine-EU relationship the prospect of membership.
Ukraine has begun to demonstrate and pursue a very active regional policy. Due to our efforts, we have activated the negotiation process concerning the Transnistria settlement, concerning one of the separatist regimes in the neighbouring Republic of Moldova. Ukrainian efforts have activated the regional institutions such as GUAM which stands for Georgia, Ukraine, Azerbaijan and Moldova. Since January Ukraine has assumed responsibility for the presidency of GUAM. We expect that in the first half of the year, during the summit in Kiev, this institution will be transformed into a fully fledged regional international organisation, the major purpose of which will be to root and promote European values and standards in our part of the world. It was Ukrainian President Yushchenko and Georgian President Saakashvili who brought forward the regional initiative to initiate the process known as the Community of Democratic Choice. As a result, 1 and 2 December last saw the inaugural forum in Kiev which began this new regional process combining the countries of the Baltic, Black and Caspian Seas. The major purpose is to achieve democracy, stability and prosperity.
Ukraine, through its active efforts in peacekeeping operations in the Balkans, is already known as a net contributor to the peace and stability programmes in Europe. It has been involved in operations in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina and now in Kosovo. Ukrainians are very active in all those peacekeeping efforts in our Continent. Like Ireland, Ukraine is known as a major contributor to peacekeeping operations the world over. It is the number one European country in terms of such contributions.
Our major foreign policy objective is to join both the European Union and NATO. Last year alone, we achieved impressive successes in both directions and this gives us a reason to expect to achieve this objective in the course of time. We count on the friendly support of the Members of the Irish Parliament, in particular the members of the Joint Committee on European Affairs.
I thank Mr. Tarasyuk. I will open the discussion to Deputy O'Connor, who is the chairman of the Ireland-Ukraine friendship group.
I thank the Chairman for facilitating me and members of the Ireland-Ukraine friendship group. In welcoming Mr. Tarasyuk, I pay tribute to his ambassador who has, with his staff, been extremely kind and courteous to us all. The Chairman has warned me not to mention my constituency more than five times and I will therefore mention Tallaght only once.
It is tremendous to see Mr. Tarasyuk here because I and some colleagues, led by the Ceann Comhairle, Deputy O'Hanlon, were part of the delegation that visited Ukraine last October. Mr. Tarasyuk met all my colleagues, including Deputies McEntee, Broughan, James Breen and Fiona O'Malley, and Senator Brady. We saw over the few exciting days of our visit the fruits of Ukrainian progress under the Orange Revolution and we met the President and Prime Minister. We were deeply impressed to meet Mr. Tarasyuk, particularly because he met us on a Saturday. It is good to see that politicians work on Saturdays, just as they do in Ireland.
Mr. Tarasyuk reminded us that Ukraine and Ireland have much in common, including the fact that we had a troublesome neighbour for some years. We do not acknowledge this very often because times have changed but it is an interesting point that is often made.
I hope Mr. Tarasyuk enjoys his day today and that he has had fruitful meetings with the President and Minister. I know he will be meeting my party leader, the Taoiseach, this afternoon. As chairman of the Ireland-Ukraine friendship group, I am glad Irish business is beginning to discover the great opportunities in Ukraine, as has been demonstrated by the three inquiries which I am told are being received every week by the Ukraine-Ireland Business and Trade Association. We all welcome this development and visits such as this will build on it.
I would like Mr. Tarasyuk to convey to my colleagues in the Ukrainian Parliament in Kiev the good wishes and regards of all my colleagues in the Ireland-Ukraine friendship group. We hope the election goes well in Ukraine and we will be looking at the names of the successful candidates when the results are published. We wish Mr. Tarasyuk every success. I hope he has a good day and I know the Irish ambassador will look after him as well as he looked after us.
Can I ask Mr. Tarasyuk a general question? Since the failure to agree a constitutional treaty, some Members, including quite a few members of this committee, have expressed reservations about broadening the European Union and about the speed at which new member states are acceding to it. This feeling was shared by the Irish electorate after the negative result of the referendum on the treaty. Although no one is referring specifically to Ukraine, can Mr. Tarasyuk address those concerns for the members of this committee?
I will try. I will outline the advice from outside the European Union rather than that from within. The reasons for the failure of the referenda in two countries were not directly connected with the constitutional treaty as such but connected to the policies and internal political realities affecting people. It was not a vote against enlargement of the European Union but against the incorrect policies of the respective governments. The European Union will find enough political will to return to the issue of the constitutional treaty and overcome the conceptual problem that arises. This will be done this year or next year. Until then, I do not believe the issue of enlargement will be put aside. The very fact that the European Union has entered membership negotiations with Croatia and Turkey proves the issue of enlargement will be on the agenda in spite of the challenges posed by the negative results of the referenda.
Bearing in mind the positive results Ukraine will demonstrate in meeting its commitments according to the action plan, the partnership incorporation agreement will inevitably require us to discuss the future place of Ukraine in a united Europe. We in Ukraine see no alternative to membership of the Union. There are no known EU legal documents, including Article 49 of the Amsterdam treaty, that exclude any European country from entering the Union. We see no reasons for the European Union to refuse to discuss the issue of Ukraine joining it one day. I guess Ukraine will accede to the Union in approximately 2015.
The Minister, Mr. Tarasyuk, is very welcome, as is our ambassador, Donal Hamill, who has always been very helpful to us in our visits to countries in which he has been stationed. I am conscious of the limited time available and will not repeat the question the Chairman asked Mr. Tarasyuk.
The energy policy of the European Union is an Achilles heel in terms of further economic development. In view of the dispute Ukraine has had with Russia regarding gas supplies, how fragile or permanent is the agreement between the two countries? What role does Mr. Tarasyuk see for his country in developing not only a European but a regional policy on energy and future energy supplies?
I thank the Deputy for the question. I have discussed these issues with my colleague, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, who was formerly the energy Minister. I intend to continue these discussions with Ireland's Prime Minister and Deputy Martin.
The dispute between Ukraine and Russia instigated a new look at the energy and security issue in the wider context of the European Union and beyond. The United States of America became very much concerned about the consequences of a policy which might lead to the use of gas and energy supply as an instrument of pressure to extract geopolitical benefits. This is what the dispute was about. The European Union rightly concluded that there was a necessity to elaborate a new energy strategy. Ukraine is very much interested in these discussions. This is not because Ukraine is trying to enter the family of European Union countries but because without Ukraine it would be impossible to discuss the energy security issues of the European Union.
Ukraine is almost a monopolist in terms of delivery of Russian gas to European Union consumers, with 82% of Russian export gas transited through Ukraine. There is a need for the producers, transiters and consumers of gas to organise a conference in order to elaborate the rules of the game because currently there are no rules. Ukraine and the majority of European countries are party to the European energy charter. Russia is not a part of the European energy charter. It has signed the charter but has not ratified it. Therefore, it is not committed to the requirements of the charter. One player, therefore, is not playing according to the established rules. That is why there is a need to sit together and discuss these rules.
Ukraine has also learned a couple of lessons from this dispute. The first is that we must reduce energy consumption, especially gas consumption, by introducing energy saving technologies. The second is that we must increase exploration and production of our own gas reserves. For this we have invited leading world energy companies to come to Ukraine with their modern technologies because much of our reserves of gas are deep and extracting it requires new technologies and investment. Ukraine is one of only 20 countries in the world with the largest reserves of gas. That means it may achieve self-sufficiency of energy in a five-year term. Ukraine also has a lot of coal. It produces some 20 billion cubic metres of gas annually, whereas consumption is 26 billion cubic metres a year. The third lesson we have learnt is that, like the European Union, we must diversify our sources of energy supply and types of energy. In this regard we have entered into negotiations with some countries in order to suggest new routes of gas supply to Ukraine and via Ukraine to a united Europe.
As to the future of the Ukrainian-Russian gas deal I remind the committee that as a result of the dispute, which was about Russia's intention to increase the price of gas to Ukraine five-fold, two energy companies, Gazprom of Russia and Naftogaz of Ukraine, concluded the agreement which was a target of criticism from different quarters of Ukraine. Currently the government has approved the idea of creating a joint venture between Ukrainian and Russian companies to distribute gas around Ukraine. The government has also prepared a draft protocol agreement between the governments of Ukraine and Russia. This used to be the practice every year. We are trying to resume this practice and to suggest to Russia that we should regulate our commitments and establish the balance of commitments between the Government of Ukraine and the Government of Russia. The Government of Ukraine is ready to commit itself to guaranteeing delivery of export gas from Russia to a united Europe, whereas we expect that the government of Russia will commit itself to guaranteeing the same level of prices for gas delivery to Ukraine.
The Russians, due to their meticulous policy, have reached a stage where they are able to monopolise the production and transit of gas not only from Russia to a united Europe but from central Asia as well. Next year Russia will acquire full control over gas deliveries from central Asia, that is, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan.
I welcome Minister Tarasyuk and his colleagues. Not only have they explained something to us regarding Ukraine, but their visit has enabled us to study and learn much more about their country.
I am struck by the number of parallels between our experience and the experience Ukraine is currently going through. I am not talking only about the history of the distant past but about the history of the past 80 years. For the first 50 years of our independence we were politically but not economically independent. Practically all our trade, imports and exports, was overwhelmingly with our much larger next door neighbour. Our monetary union with the UK meant that we were not even in control of our own interest rates. That changed when we joined the European Union. Joining the European Union enabled us to become less an off-shore distant cousin and more an equal partner with that next door neighbour. Ukraine seems to have the same sort of relationship with its neighbour.
Is the wish of the Ukrainian people to join the European Union more a wish to free Ukraine of the dominance of Russia rather than a desire to join the European Union? How it this viewed by Russia? Is Russia likely to obstruct and object to Ukraine's movement towards joining the European Union?
It would be an over-simplification to think Ukraine is trying to join the European Union because of a desire to distance itself from Russia. In Ukraine people feel they are an inseparable part of the European family in a united Europe. We would like to establish and follow the same European values and standards after the Orange Revolution. It is the natural return to the united Europe, of which Ukraine was a part in ages past. This is a quest to return to European civilisation. Of course, some may think that as soon as Ukraine joins the European Union and NATO, there will be an attempt by our neighbour to the east to think of the possibility of returning to the past, that is, to the empire. For those who hold these fears it is extremely important that the European Union sends positive signals about the prospects of membership for Ukraine. Our opponents in Ukraine contend that while our objective is to join the European Union, the Union does not wish to respond. They make the argument that nobody is waiting for Ukraine to join the European Union and that it is more logical for Ukraine to go back to a union with Russia.
We were part of a united Europe in the past and that is our aspiration for the future. The public position in Russia is that Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, has the right to establish its foreign policy objectives and choose its allies. This applies to its relationship with the European Union and NATO. We know, however, that among the Russian political elite, the mood is different. They still cannot live with the idea of an independent Ukraine, free from Russian domination. The problem is with the Russian political elite.
I welcome the delegation to the committee. We have an "Orange" tradition on this island, but it is the opposite of the tradition in Ukraine, where I watched the events with great enthusiasm. At the beginning of last year, as well as this year, Ukraine dominated world headlines. I followed the dispute about gas supplies between Russia and Ukraine. As Ireland endured economic imperialism, the dispute resonates with us in many ways.
Mr. Tarasyuk has touched on the fact that Russia is playing this game to try to exercise its influence in the geopolitical context. However, I read reports in which it was stated Russia had claimed Ukraine was syphoning off gas from its supplies to western Europe — I have not seen this issue discussed or debated in any way — and that the Ukrainian Government had made a statement to the effect that it was not prepared to fund the joint venture, which was supposed to solve the problem. The dispute is very much alive, but perhaps the newspapers have got the wrong angle. I would be interested to hear the views of the delegation on that statement.
Ireland has an open labour market policy, with free movement of workers from other member states. Workers from other EU member states do not need a visa to work in Ireland. I note that in Ukraine there is high approval of making an application for EU membership. However, if the free movement of workers within the European Union was constrained by work permits, would this affect Ukraine's positive image of the Union?
I join members in welcoming the Minister and his delegation from Ukraine. I, too, wish to pursue the last question, with the question put by the Chairman. It is fair to say many in Ireland, as well as in other member states, favour greater political union; however, others favour a looser union. I count myself among those who favour deeper political union. We are concerned about the pace of enlargement. When we look at the new member states such as Poland, the Czech Republic and some of the Baltic states it seems clear that their peoples were very enthusiastic about joining the European Union because they imagined it would bring economic benefits and prosperity. I also suspect they wanted to loosen the influence of the Russian Federation. Both are very reasonable reasons. However, there seems to be a lack of interest or political commitment among their populations towards deeper political union. Perhaps that is because they have recently been established as free democratic independent states and are reluctant to merge their sovereignty with the European Union in a way in which some of the older nation states within Europe are willing to do. I know it is a tortuous way of putting the question but is it possible that, if Ukraine was to join, its people would be less interested in political union than they might be in economic benefits?
My second question is related. Until now relations between the European Union and Belarus, Ukraine and countries in the Caucasus have been structured through the neighbourhood policy, which I understand from Mr. Tarasyuk's statement is regarded as being inadequate. Is it possible that improvements or enhancements can be made to the policy that he would find desirable?
Will the Senator repeat his last question?
Yes. Up until now relations with the former countries of the Soviet Union — Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia and other countries of the Caucasus — have been structured through the neighbourhood policy which is very loose. I gather Ukraine finds it inadequate as a structure for dealing with the European Union. I wish to learn how Mr. Tarasyuk sees matters improving. If the ultimate aim of Ukraine is membership of the European Union, how does he see it progressing in the very short timetable of nine years?
There were a number of questions about the allegations that Ukraine was taking gas from the pipeline. We heard these accusations for the first time in the early days of the new year. This was a lie because the Ukraine has not taken a single cubic metre of Russian gas in order to guarantee the export of that gas to the countries of the European Union. We did this at our own expense, as a gift.
We did the same in connection with the Russians cutting the gas supply to Moldova. In other words, we supplied gas to our Moldovan neighbours at our expense in order to help them. Moldova, like Ukraine, was under pressure because of the enormous increase in price. Behind the price increase was the expectation that we would not be able to sustain the new price and would yield our gas transportation system to Russian control. The Moldovans actually succumbed to the pressure and have given control of their gas system to Russia. Ukraine still controls 100% of its gas transportation system, which is capable of transporting 150 billion cu. m. of gas per annum.
The Russians claimed that we were stealing their gas but the situation whereby we use gas in cases of unfavourable weather conditions is referred to in our bilateral agreement and, in those circumstances, we pay a higher price for that gas. We are not, therefore, stealing anything from anybody. We are simply paying, to the last cent, the agreed price for the gas used. This issue is regulated by bilateral agreements and everything else is mere political speculation.
A Ukranian company concluded the joint venture agreement and the issue in that regard was not price. One should not confuse the relationship between companies such as Naftogaz of Ukraine and Gazprom of Russia and that between the Governments of both countries. We are seeking the regulation of the balanced commitments between the Governments of Ukraine and Russia.
A member of the committee asked about the work permit issue, the prospect of joining the European Union and how that will affect the aspirations of Ukranians. We are not seeking membership of the European Union in order to gain access to job opportunities. Certainly, we have high expectations concerning membership and many Ukranians working in various EU member states are contributing to the economic wealth of those countries and are respected as law-abiding people. Ukranians have a different interpretation of the European neighbourhood policy to that of some bureaucrats in Brussels, who see it as a substitute for membership of the European Union. We do not accept that. We accept the European neighbourhood policy and action plan only as a step towards full membership. That is the difference in interpretation. If the European neighbourhood policy is designed to provide a quasi-solution for the Ukraine and some north African and Middle Eastern countries, then we cannot agree to it because we are a European nation. Taking into the account the experience of central and eastern European countries, the proposed nine-year timeframe for Ukranian membership is adequate.
I thank the members of the friendship group, including Senator Brady and Deputy Ring. I also wish to belatedly acknowledge the presence of the Irish ambassador to the Czech Republic and Ukraine, Mr. Donal Hamill. I thank the Minister for his presentation and wish the delegates the best of luck in the future.
The joint committee went into private session at 3.55 p.m. and adjourned at 4 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 15 February 2006.
