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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 Sep 2009

Lisbon Treaty: Discussion with Leader of Sinn Féin.

Before the meeting starts, I remind members that this meeting is webcast so their every move will be recorded and broadcast on the world wide web. This has happened for the past three meetings. In accordance with the previous decision of the committee to invite the leaders of various political parties in the Oireachtas to address the committee in respect of the Lisbon treaty and the European agenda, we welcome Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, the leader in the House of Sinn Féin. He is accompanied by Mr. Eoin Ó Broin, Sinn Féin European affairs adviser.

Members should switch off their mobile phones because they interrupt proceedings or at least the technology used. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. That is important to ensure we do not have major difficulties. I invite Deputy Ó Caoláin to address the committee for ten or 15 minutes, which will be followed by a question and answer session.

Ar dtús báire, ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an gcoiste as ucht an chuireadh bheith leo anseo ar maidin. A Chathaoirligh, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, a Theachtaí Dála agus a Sheanadoirí, I thank you for the opportunity to outline Sinn Féin's considered and reasoned opposition to the Lisbon treaty, to hear members' views and answer their questions as best I can. I hope to convince some members of the merits of our position.

On 12 June 2008 almost 900,000 people in this State rejected the Lisbon treaty. They did so because they believed that it was a bad treaty and because they wanted a better deal for Ireland and for Europe. The result presented the Government with a strong mandate to negotiate a new and better treaty. At the time Sinn Féin presented the Taoiseach, Deputy Brian Cowen, with detailed proposals of how we felt the concerns of the electorate could be met. We outlined ways in which we believe the EU can be made more democratic, more protective of public services and workers' rights, more respectful of this State's neutrality and more responsive to the needs of rural communities and the developing world. What did the Government do? Just like its mismanagement of the economy, it prevaricated, sat on its hands and failed to act appropriately. As a result, the Government has not secured a single change to the text of the Lisbon treaty. On 2 October we will vote on exactly the same treaty as we did last year.

If it was not good enough for the electorate then, why on earth should it be good enough for us now? At the European Council meeting in June of this year, the Government agreed so-called legally binding guarantees on neutrality, taxation and ethical issues. The Government also agreed a so-called solemn declaration on workers' rights and reiterated the promise for every member state to retain a Commissioner. On this basis the "Yes" side argue that the 53% of the electorate who rejected the Lisbon treaty should reconsider their position. Unfortunately, nothing in the so-called guarantees or in the solemn declaration changes either the text of the treaty or the impact it will have on Ireland or the EU. We fear we will still lose our Commissioner in 2014. I challenge anyone present to state unequivocally and on the record that while the Lisbon treaty proposal to reduce the size of the Commission remains, the possibility of member states losing their rights of a permanent Commissioner is not only a possibility but indeed a probability come 2014.

Our neutrality will still be undermined. Although the so-called legally binding guarantee reiterates the position that only an Irish Government can send Irish troops abroad, it does not address the many concerns Sinn Féin raised during the previous Lisbon treaty referendum with regard to the advances on the common security and common defence agendas.

Workers' rights and public services will still come under attack. The solemn declaration is nothing more than a glorified press release, giving the EU institutions no new powers or instruments to address the growing deficit with regard to workers' rights.

Tax harmonisation will still be made easier, as Sinn Féin argued in 2008. Our concern was never that the Lisbon treaty would introduce tax harmonisation, rather the simplified revision procedure contained in Article 48 of the treaty would allow the Council acting by unanimity to move taxation to qualified majority vote and we, the people, would not have the right to a referendum in this vital matter of State sovereignty.

The Government's claims, and those of their supporters in Fine Gael and Labour, of having addressed the concerns of the electorate are absolutely false. The proposition before the people on 2 October is exactly the same as it was in June 2008. If it is the same treaty, then the people should give the same answer and say "No" to this bad deal.

Fianna Fáil and its supporters in Labour and Fine Gael are also using the economic crisis to scare people into supporting the treaty. We are told that if we vote "No" we will lose investment, jobs and support from our EU counterparts. The truth is very different. The cause of this recession is the failed economic policies of this Government and its counterparts across Europe. Many of these failed right-wing politicians were responsible for negotiating the treaty and many of their failed right-wing policies are contained in the treaty. In much the same way as this recession is the creation of Deputies Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen, so too is the Lisbon treaty. If they got it so wrong on the economy, why should anyone trust them on the Lisbon treaty?

Fianna Fáil and its supporters in Fine Gael and Labour are arguing that supporting the Lisbon treaty referendum is the only route to economic recovery, the only route to job creation and the only way for Ireland to remain fully involved in the EU. Sinn Féin believes these claims to be false. The Lisbon treaty is a right-wing treaty that promotes greater deregulation and undermines the ability of member states to intervene in their economies to stimulate growth and equality. Rather than assisting any economic recovery, ratification and implementation of the Lisbon treaty would make the recession worse.

We are also being told that a second "No" vote would jeopardise inward investment. Did we not we hear that before? We heard exactly the same kind of scaremongering during the first referendum campaign. Unfortunately for Fianna Fáil the facts tell a different story. In July of this year IDA chief executive officer, Barry O'Leary, said: "It should be noted that 2008 saw a 14 per cent increase in foreign direct investment (FDI) on the previous year bringing the total number of FDI investments in 2008 to 130."

Speaking to the Oireachtas sub-committee on Ireland's future in the European Union on 21 October 2008, Paul Rellis, managing director of Microsoft Ireland said: "I have not seen any material impact on jobs, market access or sales in recent months attributable to the rejection of the Lisbon treaty." Of course the biggest threat to job creation, investment and the economy is not a second rejection of the Lisbon treaty but the continuation of this Fianna Fáil-Green Party Government and for that matter its replacement by an equally right-wing Fine Gael-led Government if and when a general election is called. We argue from a left perspective that the root to economic recovery rests not in the Lisbon treaty but in a change of direction at home and in the European Union.

In 2008, Sinn Féin outlined the key reasons for people to oppose the Lisbon treaty and they remain the same. The Lisbon treaty reduces Ireland's power in the European Union; we will lose our permanent Commissioner and our voting strength on the Council will be cut by half while the bigger states double their strength. The Lisbon treaty erodes our neutrality, drawing us further into a NATO-compatible common defence and obliging us to increase military spending. For the first time we will be voting on an EU treaty that states, in Article 28, that there "will" be a common defence.

The Lisbon treaty will further undermine the viability of rural Ireland and family farming, through the strengthened powers for the EU Trade Commissioner contained in Articles 2, 10 and 188C, effectively ending the Irish Government's veto on mixed international trade deals. Crucially, Article 48 removes our automatic right to a referendum on future changes to existing treaties.

Last week, the Taoiseach addressed this committee and during his remarks he argued that the outcome of the referendum would be "interpreted as a signal for our future intentions regarding this country's place in the European Union" and that it would "make a statement about whether we want to continue to be an influential player at the heart of Europe or whether we want to move to the periphery on the basis of our suspicion and mistrust of the EU's direction and intent". He continued to state that a second rejection of the Lisbon treaty would mean that our commitment to Europe would be called into question.

These arguments, used in various forms by Fianna Fáil and its supporters in Fine Gael and the Labour Party, are a cynical attempt to play on the legitimate fears that many people have because of the economic insecurity created by the Government. A rejection of the Lisbon treaty would not indicate a spiritual withdrawal from the EU, as Deputy Brian Lenihan suggested, nor would it declare an intention to move to the periphery. Rather, it would be a demonstration of our commitment to a better European Union and a fairer Ireland.

I place emphasis on the fact that the overwhelming majority of those voters who rejected the Lisbon treaty in 2008, including this voter, want Ireland to play a full and central role in shaping the future of the European Union; make no mistake about it. Our primary purpose in campaigning against this treaty is that we believe the EU can and must do better. A strong "No" vote on 2 October would send a signal to the peoples of Europe that we in Ireland have a better vision for our future and our children's future than that of the failed and discredited political elites who drafted the treaty over the past eight or nine years.

The consequences of voting "No" are that Ireland will remain a full and equal member of the European Union. We cannot be expelled or marginalised. The European Union will carry on as before and inward investment will not be affected. As I indicated, in 2008 we saw a 14% increase in foreign direct investment on the previous year despite the scaremongering claims of the "Yes" side. Crucially what will happen is that a space will open for a real debate on the future of the European Union in the context of today's reality. The Lisbon treaty started life in the declaration of Laeken in 2001 and the first draft of the treaty was concluded by the European Council in 2004. The world has changed dramatically since then. The Lisbon treaty is out of date and out of time. We need a new treaty written by new political forces containing new policies to meet the new and very serious challenges of our time.

I welcome Deputy Ó Caoláin and Mr. Eoin Ó Broin. I thank Deputy Ó Caoláin for his presentation which, as always, was well thought out, well researched and well presented. I am delighted he has had an opportunity to make his points today. I would like to pose a number of questions to tease out the debate. Deputy Ó Caoláin spoke about a change in the direction of Europe and that is interesting. Will he highlight to us what is his view of Europe? He stated that he is a committed European. I do not want to go back over the old chestnut of when did Sinn Féin support a European treaty, but it is a point that he might address.

Deputy Ó Caoláin quoted Paul Rellis from the record. I do not have his statement with me but, as I recall, he continued to state that while there may not have been an immediate impact as a result of the "No" vote he felt that international investment was based on certainty and confidence, which he felt would be eroded if Ireland continued with the position the Irish people had adopted on that occasion. Recently, I had another opportunity to speak to him. He reiterated the point that while there had not been an immediate impact — perhaps some on the "Yes" side suggested that would happen on the previous occasion and that would have been wrong — he felt that his capacity to continue to attract the type of investment from within Microsoft's pools of moneys that has allowed it to transcend from being a manufacturing facility when it initially arrived in Ireland to a research and development facility working on futuristic projects and to continue to develop would be greatly inhibited if there was a perception, rightly or wrongly, that we had changed our attitude towards Europe. He contended that a "No" vote did that. I accept that it would be a perception that we would have changed our attitude towards Europe but, unfortunately, we must consider the perception that would be created by a "No" vote and the impact it would have on our ability to continue to attract the next layer of foreign direct investment.

Deputy Ó Caoláin spoke about the potential loss of the capacity to have a referendum to decide our tax policy and about the sovereignty of our tax policy. At present, perhaps unfortunately from their point of view, the Irish people do not decide this by referendum or any suffrage other than by electing representatives to decide what the tax policy is at national level. One vests the capacity to change one's position on tax in elected representatives and the policy which has emerged in this country of low corporate and labour tax bases has worked well and continues to do so. Why would we expect to have a referendum that would require unanimity in the Council before we would change our direction in that regard? Why would any Government want to change control or cede control of our tax policy considering that it has been so beneficial in attracting inward investment and growth in labour?

Deputy Ó Caoláin also spoke about the farming community and the impact he believes the Lisbon treaty will have on farming. I respect his opinion and his interpretation. However, I come from a small farm in the west of Ireland and I meet other such people on a daily basis. I recognise that the vast majority of farmers believe that our engagement with Europe to date has been of huge benefit and I will not go into the amount of money transferred to farming. The Irish Farmers' Association, the ICMSA and others are, on this occasion, enthusiastically supporting a "Yes" vote. I contend that they are the people best versed to represent the views of farming considering that they have a significant presence in Brussels and have very good people there, such as Michael Treacy, who represent them very well.

Deputy Ó Caoláin also discussed workers' rights and, again, not all but the vast majority of trade unions in Ireland and throughout Europe seem to support the Lisbon treaty. They do so on the basis that they represent workers. Perhaps this leads back to the Deputy's statement that he is looking for a change of direction. When I come to understand what that change of direction means, I may be enlightened. I have other points to make but I will not hog the meeting.

For clarification, will I take a group of questions at a time?

That may be a good idea. I am aware that the Deputy is anxious to leave by noon.

I welcome Deputy Ó Caoláin and thank him for his presentation. He mentioned on a couple of occasions that Ireland was to lose its Commissioner by 2014. On what basis does he believe this to be the case? Has the European Union reneged on any protocol, solemn declaration or commitment to Ireland or any other country since we joined? The answer to that question is no; therefore, why does he believe the Union will do it now in regard to the Commissioner and other commitments?

The Deputy said Sinn Féin was committed to the European Union and the European cause. The UK Independence Party seems to be in the same boat. What does it feel like to be sharing the oars in that boat with a party made up of anti-Europeans and Eurosceptics?

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Teachta. Mhol mise, dhá mhí ó shin, go mbeadh seans ag ceannairí na bpáirtithe go léir polasaí faoi reifreann Liospóin a chur faoi bhráid an choiste seo, mar go bhfuil sin an-tábhachtach. Tá mé lán sásta go bhfuil an Teachta Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin anseo linn inniu.

Deputy Ó Caoláin said if we rejected the Lisbon treaty, we would be more democratic. Will he elaborate on what he means by this? I have been in the House for 27 years and spent 20 years as a Minister of State. I served on 14 European Councils and never witnessed a more democratic operation. I presume the Deputy agrees that the European Union has been a positive force for good in world affairs, European affairs and international affairs in both bilateral and multilateral spheres.

Deputy Ó Caoláin lives beside the Border and I am very disappointed that he has made no reference to the role the European Union has played in Northern Ireland. If he looks at the Lisbon treaty, in totality and in detail, he will see that what we are doing is enabling the European Union to play a more active role in bringing peace to troubled parts of Europe and the world. For 30 years we had tragedy in Northern Ireland which, thankfully, is behind us. We lost 3,500 people, while over 35,000 were injured. The European Union was requested, on occasions, to intervene in Northern Ireland but had no legal process whereby it could do so. The Lisbon treaty gives us that legal process. In addition, the European Union has contributed €1 billion in funds through INTERREG III to support cross-Border development. It has spent over €500 million on EU programmes, North and South, but particularly in Northern Ireland.

Deputy Ó Caoláin is a republican Nationalist; I am also a republican Nationalist, as well as an internationalist. It is important we recognise the role of the European Union on neutrality and the positivity of its contribution. The Deputy spoke about defence but unanimity is required in such matters. Even special missions cannot be recommended without the unanimous endorsement of the European Council. We cannot send one person on a mission that involves military activity unless there is a request from the United Nations, a request from the European Union, a decision of the sovereign Government of the Republic of Ireland and ultimate validation by the majority of Dáil Éireann. That is a very powerful triple lock. We are bringing forward a new defence Bill which has been published and will be debated shortly to copperfasten our triple lock to protect the guarantees we have received over and above what is contained in the treaty.

I endorse the point made by Senator Cummins on the importance of the commissioner to the country. Deputy Ó Caoláin's party stated before the last referendum that we would lose our commissioner. Will he now inform us in what circumstances we will lose our commissioner?

The treaty is very clear on tax harmonisation. Each country has total control of its tax mechanisms but I am sure Deputy Ó Caoláin will agree there has to be a need for bilateral agreements on certain taxes. The Republic of Ireland entered negotiations with the United Kingdom for the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland and the Lisbon treaty acknowledges the right to do so, enabling bilateral agreements in certain areas to ensure there is no placing of economic regions or entities within the Union at a disadvantage.

The European Union is based on liberty, equality and fraternity. It is vitally important we understand that at this critical time both for the economic and political affairs of the country. The Union played a role in the embedding of peace in Northern Ireland and the support it provides offers opportunities for our people, North and South. Deputy Ó Caoláin said there would be no threat to international investment or the attractiveness of Ireland as a major investment hub if we said "No" to the Lisbon treaty but we would send a signal to the international world, including the United States and elsewhere, that we do not have the confidence of the Union. Who would have the confidence to invest in us if we rejected an opportunity to tap into a market of 500 million people which has made such a huge contribution to the evolution, development and economic sustainability of the country?

I welcome our colleague, Deputy Ó Caoláin, and Mr. Ó Broin. Since the last "No" vote, the European Union has shown good faith by providing protocols in the areas of taxation, the right to life and defence and has given an assurance on the retention of our commissioner. It has effectively given us money at a favourable rate to bail us out of the difficulties we are experiencing in the wake of the property bubble. Given the remarkable good faith it has shown to allay our anxieties, the contention that there will be no consequences if there is a second "No" vote is simply incorrect. The first and immediate consequence will be the fact that we will affect Europe from the Arctic Circle down to Cyprus and Malta and from Portugal over to Russia because the Lisbon treaty will fall. In doing so, we will be looked at by financial markets as having achieved that end and will immediately face a 2% increase in the cost of borrowing because those markets will take fright and then take flight. It will add €500 million to the cost of our annual borrowing. I know Deputy Ó Caoláin would not want to affect the old, the sick and the vulnerable but that is effectively what it would do.

We have our guarantees, underwritten by the European Union, and any inquiries we may have had have been dealt with. We will have severe and immediate consequences, not just in Ireland but throughout Europe, if we vote "No" a second time.

I welcome Deputy Ó Caoláin and apologise to him as unfortunately I was in the Dáil during his contribution. I am aware that Sinn Féin has opposed all treaties to date but I am also aware that it is in favour of Ireland's involvement in Europe. When and why did Sinn Féin change its policy on the issue?

We all welcome Deputy Ó Caoláin before us. I serve on another committee with him and his contributions are most assiduous and fruitful there. As I understand it, the protocols and arrangements which have been brought about by the Taoiseach and his colleagues going to Brussels and laying out our stall have been validated by all the countries and laid before the United Nations. Having said that, I also understand that the Good Friday Agreement has been laid before the United Nations and thus validated and adhered to. If the UN was good enough to provide the proper environment for the Good Friday Agreement, I do not see how its role should be denigrated when the protocols as arranged were lodged there. It is a useful repository for what has happened and I hope will happen.

There is a further point in the debate which I find most unusual. We are, altogether, 27 countries and Deputy Ó Caoláin has said he is in favour of Europe. Why is there an aura of a conspiracy in which 26 countries are out to get us? Why do we fear all the other countries? Why are we not prepared to stand on our own, put forward our case and insist on collegiality with all the other countries in Europe? Why should we see ourselves with the potential to be done up by the other 26 countries? It should not be so.

I was a Minister in many Departments and I know from going to the Council of Ministers that when we make our contributions, we are not told that we are such a small country or percentage of the whole that we should not speak again. It is far from that as our words are given as much weight as those of Germany, France or other larger countries.

I am not worried that we are small because our efforts are fruitful. We have had an amazing effect on Europe and not just as a legacy over hundreds of years but in modern times as well. The equality afforded to each country is surely exemplified in us being proud to be the size we are and the weight we attach to that. We should not be enveloped in a cloak of conspiracy, saying that everyone else is out to get us. We work in collegiality with many other countries and there is mutual respect between us.

I do not want to be craven or to believe we are not important. We stand on our own record and rights and surely that is way we should proceed with Europe.

I apologise to Deputy Ó Caoláin because I was not here for all his presentation. As with Deputy O'Rourke, I work very closely with Deputy Ó Caoláin in another forum and he is a very good colleague. We are glad to have him here and to have this debate, which has aired different but valid perspectives.

Will the Deputy clarify one point of view regarding the Commission and that the agreement only lasts until 2014? That is not what is written in the second paragraph of the Presidency conclusions from last December. It is an unqualified agreement between Ministers and we have that text in front of us.

There has been much speculation in the media that the Sinn Féin organisations in the North and South have different views on the Lisbon treaty and the European Union. As the Deputy is representing Sinn Féin, will he expand on that?

We will now go back to Deputy Ó Caoláin. They are all simple questions.

I do not think so. I sincerely thank all Deputies and Senators for their contribution. When the meeting was being set up, the original start time was 11.30 a.m. and I requested the secretariat to bring it forward to 11 a.m. because I am due to speak in the leaders' contributions on NAMA by 12.30 p.m. at the latest.

There were changes over which we had no control.

That is true. I will take each of the questions and deal with them as best I can. Deputy Timmy Dooley spoke about the direction of Europe and Sinn Féin's vision for Europe in future, and some of the other contributions also touched on this in some measure. Without question, Sinn Féin not only wishes to be an integral part of Ireland's representation within the European Union but has already demonstrated that uniquely as an all-island party with elected representation on both sides of the Border. Our commitment to working with colleagues not only from Ireland but those who share our respective outlook, hopes and aspirations for the European Union into the future are on record.

We believe the European Union must be responsive to the needs of member states and the citizens of each of them. We believe in equality. Deputy Treacy spoke of liberty, equality and fraternity but the equality buttons cannot all be pushed now or in what is proposed coming from the Lisbon treaty. We are moving to a different position as heretofore and from the outset we were always open to the idea of an amalgam of peoples based on equal opportunity. We understand the proportionality with regard to democratic representation within the Parliament but we are moving to population realities with regard to voting strength within the Council of Ministers.

This is a move away from an equality agenda. We are citizens of Ireland and citizenship of the European Union is of a different variety. If we are to move towards becoming citizens of the European Union while it is based on national population numbers, Ireland's position will be significantly overtaken by the major population centres of Germany, France, Britain, Italy, Poland, etc. We should be mindful of that as we want to protect not only the interests of Irish people but also smaller member states across the Union. We must also protect the respective interests of people within the larger populations which mirror our outlook.

The contributions of Paul Rellis to the sub-committee's deliberations have been mentioned. It is important to note that the quotation I read into the record this morning is absolutely accurate and a valid reflection of Mr. Rellis's contribution. It does not only relate to the absence of any downward trend or cycle relating to the first rejection by the Irish people of the treaty on 12 June 2008. The same reality was shown to be the case after the French and Dutch rejection of the constitutional treaty proposals in 2005 when we saw that economic aid development and inward investment in France during the period immediately following was not an ill reflection. There was a significant upturn. We are not making the point that one is commensurate with the other but are rejecting the argument that claims if one says "No" there is an economic penalty to pay. We do not accept that.

Regarding negative consequences, we are not making the contrary argument. The people who say there will be negative consequences are those on the "Yes" side. It is very important to note that the Taoiseach and others feed the negative perception regarding our position. They give it a currency which I do not accept. As a member state, we have the right to debate the Lisbon treaty on its standalone merits without the sense of a threat hanging over our heads. That is not the way to conduct a debate and inform the broad electorate on the merits or demerits of the proposition.

Concerning tax harmonisation, I must refer to Article 48. Although the current system is cumbersome with regard to changes in some areas, especially where we achieved and retained the right to hold a referendum on specific changes to the treaties, my party is looking at the situation in respect of Article 48. This concerns the simplified revision procedure whereby the European Council may adopt a decision amending all or part of the provisions of the treaty on the function of the European Union. It goes further to state that the European Council may adopt the decision authorising the Council to act by a qualified majority in that area, or in that case. To reach that point there must be unanimity but a future Irish Government might assent, although I have heard all the political parties assert — including the current Government's major party, Fianna Fáil, during Deputy Bertie Ahern's time as Taoiseach — that they would not countenance a change to that arrangement. One must look at the record of the political parties which make up the Houses of the Oireachtas, where they have stood and what their positions are because there will be changes in Government along the way. Can we be certain that a future Government will not agree to move from unanimity to qualified majority voting?

I need only cite the Bersani report of 2005, with which I am sure the members are familiar. I have a copy here. The report, as introduced by Pier Luigi Bersani, dealt with a common consolidated corporate tax base, or what I have described as CCCTB, something over which we would cherish retaining control. This report reflects not only on Bersani and those who worked with him in its compilation, but demonstrates there is unquestionably a body of opinion within the European Union that wishes to move to this position. Sadly, that report was supported by a number of Irish MEPs at that time. None was from Fianna Fáil.

That is very true.

I acknowledge the fact. Please let me finish. It is very important. We are saying the current situation will not maintain the guarantees into the future. A future Government might concede and we believe that situation should not be open to it. We want that protection because we believe, as Fianna Fáil asserts, and has asserted on the floor of the Dáil Chamber on numerous occasions, that it is something we should not only cherish but should protect by every means at our disposal. The Lisbon treaty does not so protect it. The faultline, sadly, may very well lie at home.

Given the time remaining, I shall try to go through some of this. Concerning farming, which was also mentioned, while the major Irish farming organisations have declared for a "Yes" position on this occasion — "enthusiastically", as described by the Deputy — that enthusiasm was not so obvious last year in the arena of Peter Mandelson as Trade Commissioner. When we consider all that happened with regard to Peter Mandelson's whole thrust and approach, we should not mistake the fact that it is a pattern. It went on before him in respect of Pascal Lamy, and with Leon Brittan before him, and has continued since Mandelson's departure from the position of Trade Commissioner. This exists and we need to be very mindful of it.

Irish farming families have every right to be concerned about mixed trade agreements into the future because we believe there is unquestionably a major body of opinion that sees the big prize to be the potential for access to major services contracts in the developing world. It has been shown time and again that these people are quite prepared. Padraig Walshe and his predecessors have indicated and expressed their concerns vehemently about this very clear trend and intent on the part of very important and powerful people within the European Union and at Commission level into the present day. It is expected to continue and is likely to deepen with the confirmation yesterday of Mr. Barroso for another five years. The situation is that these people will trade off the interests of small farming families in order to secure their prizes. The real losers in all this will be Irish farming families and the developing world because these people are out to exploit. We will face big services contracts in the developing world which will affect Irish farming families and farming families across Europe. I have no doubt that if we reject the Lisbon treaty on 2 October, which I believe we should do, countries that have a very solid agricultural food processing sector will continue to work together and address these issues. The French, the Irish and others have co-operated in the past and I believe they will continue to do so into the future.

Senator Cummins spoke of the Commissioner, as did Deputy Thomas Byrne. I can look to the Presidency report of 19 June and cite the various articles. I put the challenge into my opening remarks. With respect, in what way can any of the members convince and show me that we have a guarantee of a Commissioner post-2014? We do not have the solemn declaration to which Senator Cummins referred and we should not make the mistake of thinking we have. There were four elements to this, namely, the decisions which were made regarding abortion, ethical issues, taxation, neutrality and workers' rights. Only three are to become declarations, with a proposal to become protocols ultimately, namely, those on abortion, taxation and neutrality. We had a declaration on workers' rights. What have we on the Commissioner? An agreement. To be frank, there are many agreements that have not stood the test of day.

It is not——

No, there is no revision of the treaty. One must be very careful regarding these various declarations, protocols and agreements. They have not addressed the range of issues that we in Sinn Féin addressed in the course of the 2008 campaign and which we continue to address today. In page 2 of the Presidency report of the 18th and 19th summits in Brussels, the references are, with regard to point No. 2, that "having carefully noted the concerns of the Irish people as set out by the Taoiseach". With regard to point No. 3 the European Council also "agrees" that other concerns of the Irish people were presented by the Taoiseach. The concerns which we presented to the Taoiseach were not reflected by him or the Irish representatives in that engagement. Our document is there for all to read and it is multilingual. It is also available in French. It is a better deal for Ireland and the European Union. I commend it to members who can take a look at what we argued. It is available on our website and the committee may wish to examine our arguments. With respect to the Taoiseach, the series of presentations and arguments he put was simply prepared and he came up with simplistic responses. I refer to the words of the EU Presidency, not mine — do not depend on Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin. It promises that three of these will form a protocol of a future accession treaty at a time as yet unknown relating to a county or countries yet unknown and such a protocol will arrive. However, page four of the document states that the protocol, when it presents, will clarify but not change either the content or the application of the Treaty of Lisbon. Let us be under no illusion about it. The people must know this fact. The committee may have comfort from it. We will differ on this issue and I did not expect that I would be able to persuade it. The members probably have known me long enough to realise that I was not going to buckle here today either——

We thought the Deputy might.

——even with the eminent Chair in his place.

I thought the Deputy might produce some evidence of where they had reneged in the past.

The people need to know the facts. They are being asked to vote on the Treaty of Lisbon on 2 October, but not a comma has changed nor, in the words of the EU Presidency, has the intent or its implementation. It has not changed one iota and we must be very clear about that.

They also need to know that if this treaty is rejected, the Treaty of Nice stands and we lose our Commissioner.

No. The Treaty of Nice only obliges when we reach 27 member states that we reduce. It does not actually state that it has to reduce by A, B or C.

A reduction of at least one.

By at least one. I thank the Deputy and that is a correction I appreciate from the committee. That would mean in reality whenever our turn comes——

It says that Nice has 62% of voting criteria.

The EU Presidency would happen for each of the current member states once in every 135 years based on a five-year occupancy of the role.

The population threshold——

One speaker only, please.

It would give adequate opportunity to address properly what we must see going forward and we wish to see a Commissioner for all member states. That position has not changed.

In that case we should vote for the Lisbon treaty.

No, we should not vote for Lisbon, with respect. I will move on quickly as I appreciate the time issue. Deputy Mary O'Rourke made the point that the Good Friday Agreement had been laid before the United Nations. Indeed, the Good Friday Agreement has been laid before the United Nations which is the very fact and point that I made in quoting the Presidency report and this responds to that same point. It will have no direct impact or effect on the Lisbon treaty or its outworking. Deputy O'Rourke also painted a view that we are little "Irelanders" and that they are all out to get us but we do not see it that way nor is that our view.

I concur with Deputy Treacy and I am very much a republican in the tradition of James Connolly and others and am very proud of his County Monaghan roots. We are an internationalist party also and we are working with comrades from member states throughout the European Union in terms of our direct involvement in the European Parliament. We are very proud of the engagement with GUE and NGL. That is part of our role there, we will continue to play that part and hopefully Sinn Féin will secure stronger representation in future opportunities. Our concerns are not only for Ireland but for Europe. We believe the French and Dutch also recorded their concerns, not only out of selfish interest but in the interest of the overall European Union in terms of their rejection of the constitutional treaty in 2005.

I refer to the matter of equals. The committee made the point that we are always equals in terms of decision making. However, we are not equals when it comes to qualified majority voting situations. The last contributor was Deputy Thomas Byrne and I have dealt with the matter of the Commissioner as best I can for the Deputy and others but he posed an interesting question which probably gives us a wrap up. I refer to the difference he allegedly perceives between Sinn Féin on one side of the Border and Sinn Féin on the other side. The only difference that I can see, and it is to my great regret, is that especially since 2007 we do not share the same political strength on this side of the Border as our party currently enjoys in the Assembly. If the Deputy were a Member of a party of four Deputies, the smallest, among 166 in the Dáil he would have some idea of the crucifixion we have to bear every day in engaging with all other Members.

That is not fair.

I remain an optimist and, along with Deputy Ó Snodaigh and my colleagues, we look forward not only to the decision on the Lisbon treaty referendum but to the general election decision which will come sooner rather than later. I am certain there are some voices in this room who would agree on that point at least in any event.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy wishes to make a quick point and if there is time to respond we will allow it.

It is a very short question and I apologise if someone else has made this point. In the last campaign Sinn Féin used the slogan or phrase, "There is always a plan B." Whether one agrees with the new referendum, it is a plan B. Is it the position of Sinn Féin now that it seeks a plan C?

No, this is plan B. I commended it to the Deputy's colleagues only a short time ago. This is the document we presented which has been translated as well. It is available in French for our visitors and colleagues this afternoon. Our position is a better deal for Ireland and the European Union. I have made the point which, sadly and regrettably despite the efforts we employed in the engagement of the sub-committee established under the initial effort and direction of the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Micheál Martin, was not taken on board. Sadly and regrettably, the points we have raised in terms of the deficiencies of the Lisbon treaty have not been reflected in the engagement with other member state representatives. They are well aware of this which is why on what is almost the opening page, the introduction to the issues, they not once but twice refer to the people's concerns as represented by the Taoiseach and use such language elsewhere. I enjoy language and I believe the construction of that phrase is an acknowledgement and an admission that they are very well aware of other real concerns not reflected. This is plan B and I commend it to the committee and most especially to the Labour Party.

Deputy Ó Caoláin has not addressed the peace situation in Northern Ireland, including the contribution of the European Union and the provision of a legal facility that allowed them to engage during the crisis there.

With respect to the Chair of the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, of which I am also an august member, I did not purposely ignore it. As one of those who was a member of our negotiations committee throughout that period it has been a very significant and proud part of my life's work and I wish to make that absolutely clear and I hope that by engagement with Deputy Treacy and others on that committee it would confirm that point. Make no mistake——

What about the role of the EU?

We have acknowledged fully the role of the European Union. I could go further and state that despite many of the misgivings and strong arguments and positions I have held over many years regarding EU treaties as they present, including the Lisbon treaty, and while I can point to serious downsides in terms of sectors of our economy and wipe-outs in some cases, on balance for the greater number of our citizens the European Union has been a good thing. Make no mistake that when I state our commitment is to be directly involved and working with all parties in representing Ireland's best interest in Europe, it is a sincere expression.

Let us do it together then.

Now the Deputy has it.

Let us conclude on that positive note from Deputy Ó Caoláin for which I was waiting. It was not so much a comfort but I was about to comment in conclusion that there are some strange personalities opposed to the Lisbon treaty throughout Europe. They include people with whom the Deputy, the committee and I would have very little in common and whose long-term agenda for Europe is not that described by the Deputy nor one to which we would subscribe.

When we met recently at a public meeting in Kells we discussed the analogy of the Good Friday Agreement and the fact that an agreement or treaty consists of the various views, concerns, vital issues and fundamentals of all participating parties. In 27 member states there are bound to be conflicting views but they are in an agreement. Therefore, no one state can overcome the other and the group of the others cannot overcome one state. Incidentally, and this has not been much quoted, in the event that all the paranoia we have witnessed in Ireland was correct, that they are all out to get us and that ultimately we will be squeezed to the extent that we will not exist any longer, there is an exit clause in the Lisbon treaty so that nobody can be squeezed to death, economically, socially, culturally or otherwise and nobody can be held within the Union, against their wishes.

Or that of their people.

Absolutely. It is highly unlikely that would happen. I am aware the Deputy subscribes to that as well and that we all subscribe to that. It is highly unlikely that would happen nor should it happen because it would not be in the interests of the people of Europe or the Irish people. We do not mind what the French did before ratifying the treaty or the Dutch either for that matter because we are still an independent Republic. I thank Deputy Ó Caoláin for appearing before the committee. We realise he has headed in that direction——

——otherwise the leader of the Green Party will take centre stage.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.10 p.m. and adjourned at 12.25 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 22 September 2009.
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