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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 8 Jul 2010

Habitats Directive: Discussion

We will now discuss the implementation of the habitats directive and issues raised by a group of landowners in the All Saints bog and Esker special area of conservation, SAC, in County Offaly. I welcome Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh, director, and Mr. James O'Connell from the national parks and wildlife service, NPWS, to address our meeting.

I will explain briefly the background to this meeting. The committee heard submissions previously from the landowners and we also requested a meeting with the Minister. The committee has discussed the issue. Members are familiar with the background to the issue, which was whether a contract was entered into for the purchase of property deemed to be part of a special area of conservations, SAC, and whether the changing economic circumstances are sufficient to change the alleged agreement. I propose that Mr. Ó Raghallaigh and Mr. O'Connell give the committee a brief outline of the situation and this will be followed by questions before we move on. I welcome Mr. Ó Raghallaigh and invite him to make his presentation.

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

We are very pleased to be here today to address the issue before the committee concerning negotiations on the purchase and sale of land in All Saints bog in County Offaly. All Saints bog is one of a relatively small number of raised bogs which were designated as special areas of conservation further to Ireland's obligations under the habitats directive. All Saints bog was notified for designation in 1997. In 1999, the then Minister provided that all commercial turf cutting on these sites was to cease and that cutting for domestic purposes could continue for a period of ten years. The voluntary bog purchase scheme was subsequently introduced. This allowed bog owners and turbary rights owners to sell their land or turbary rights to the State for prescribed sums per acre. There were also provisions for incentive payments where turf cutting was ceased before the ten-year derogation elapsed. The scheme has had in excess of 2,000 applicants, of which more than 1,000 have resulted to date in execution of contracts for the sale of land or turbary rights. The remainder are being processed. All of these contracts were completed at the rates prescribed as part of the scheme.

As the committee is aware, the vendors in this case were 14 landowners with turf cutting rights in All Saints bog. They were represented as a single group in a single set of negotiations with the Department. The Department was originally interested in acquiring the land in question as the lands were included in a candidate special area of conservation since 1997 with a view to achieving an end to domestic turf cutting on the site and facilitating restoration of the bog. Under the voluntary purchase scheme, standard rates of €3,500 for the first acre and €3,000 per acre thereafter are offered to those interested in selling. These rates had been agreed with farming representative groups in 2004. The landowners in this case did not wish to sell their holdings to the State at these rates.

In 2006, the Department entered into negotiations with the landowners' representative, Mr. Sean Canny, to ascertain if contractual agreement could be reached in this case. Over 2006 and 2007, negotiations took place between the national parks and wildlife service, which was advised on valuation by the Office of Public Works, and Mr. Canny. For most of 2006, the NPWS was represented by Mr. Eamon Brennan, assistant director at that time. In the third quarter of that year, Mr. Brennan was replaced in that position by Mr. William Culbert.

As previously raised in the committee's meeting with the landowners in question last November, during August 2006, the then Minister of State at the Office of Public Works, Mr. Tom Parlon, chaired a meeting between the landowners, Mr. Canny, Mr. Culbert of the NPWS and Mr. Eamon Coyle, a valuer from the Office of Public Works. This meeting did not conclude final agreement on rates to be offered but decided that the negotiations between the parties should continue. After further discussions between Mr. Culbert and Mr. Canny, it was noted on the file that on 17 April 2007 agreement had been reached with Mr. Canny that a price of €5,100 per acre could be offered to the landowners, subject to contract. This offer was conveyed by Mr. Canny but was not accepted by the landowners. Shortly after this, Mr. Culbert was assigned to other duties as a result of the Government decentralisation programme and was replaced by Mr. James O'Connell, who is present.

Further meetings took place between Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Canny in an effort to establish if agreement could be reached on a price. After further consideration and discussion, an increased offer of €5,500 per acre was discussed between Mr. O'Connell, in consultation with Ms Oonagh Buckley, my predecessor and director of the NPWS at the time, whom I replaced in 2008. However, before this final offer was confirmed, the matter was reviewed within the Department. It was decided, pending a decision on more generalised compensation arrangements for ending turf cutting in SACs, which was approaching then and would become necessary within two years of that time, that no payment of rates above those at that time available under the cessation of turf cutting scheme should be made to individual vendors. Accordingly, the review determined that, as a matter of policy, at this time no contract should be concluded involving rates higher than those available under the terms of the voluntary purchase scheme. It was felt that the Department should not make an exception in this case by offering higher rates. The conclusion arrived at was that the proposed agreement would be likely to create a precedent which would lead to considerable pressure to pay the proposed higher rates to all applicants under the voluntary purchase scheme and thus undermine the basis and accepted rates of that scheme. The option of going to formal arbitration was pointed out to the vendors, but this has not been pursued by them to date.

The Department understands very well the unhappiness of the landowners in this case who expected the Department to conclude the contract. As is normal, property sales agreements are subject to contract. In this case, as in many others, both in the voluntary purchase scheme and in property sales generally, property may be sale agreed but ultimately not lead to contract. While once again acknowledging the landowners' disappointment, the Department was within its legal rights in not proceeding to contract. This has been confirmed and verified by our legal advice from the Chief State Solicitor.

The Department must balance several issues in considering this case in the broader context of protection of these sites. We must balance the interests of the particular landowners in this case, those of other landowners who have concluded sales to the Department at prescribed rates, those who are in the process of concluding those sales and the interests of the taxpayer who, ultimately, carries the financial burden of these acquisitions. The landowners may wish to note that the Government is considering compensation arrangements for those adversely affected by the end of the derogation for domestic turf cutting on these bogs. An interdepartmental committee has recently reported to the Minister, Deputy Gormley, and has outlined options being considered by Government regarding compensating those affected by the end of the derogations in the designated raised bogs in question. That report is available on the NPWS website.

Under the current legislation, a right of compensation arises where a landowner or user has been refused consent to carry out works, including turf cutting or associated drainage works, by the Minister under the habitats regulations or wildlife Acts. I understand that no application to continue turf cutting has yet been received from the landowners in question, but the receipt and refusal of any such application would trigger a right to compensation where turf cutting has been lawfully carried out up to now. If agreement is not reached on a rate of compensation, there is provision for independent arbitration. I thank the committee for its attention and will be happy to address any questions.

Thank you. Does Mr. O'Connell want to contribute now?

Mr. James O’Connell

I will wait until later as Mr. Ó Raghallaigh has summarised the position well.

I propose that as the bog in question is in Deputy Enright's constituency, she should lead off on the issue.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the departmental representatives. The committee is more or less aware of the background to this subject. The presentation is pretty much the same as the legal correspondence between the Department and the solicitors for the relevant people. The Department has taken advice from the Office of the Chief State Solicitor which supports the Department's point of view. This file never reached the Chief State Solicitor's office because the Department reneged on the deal that had been done so I think that is a red herring and not relevant to the point being made today.

Why did the Department ever enter negotiations with this group? A significant level of departmental resources has been deployed. Mr. O'Connell is the third person to sit down with this group and with the representatives to carry out these negotiations. Is it normal practice for the Department and the national parks and wildlife service, NPWS, to put this amount of time and effort into something and then to have a supposed policy review where all that time and effort comes to nothing? A verbal agreement was reached and then, for some reason and at some date unknown, the Department decided to have a review and this came to nothing. When was that decision made? The group last heard from Mr. O'Connell on 13 July and some outstanding issues were clarified at that point. Eventually, in October 2007, Mr. Sean Canny, representing the landowners, received a letter from Mr. O'Connell stating the informal offer of compensation was reviewed in the context of developing policy on financial and other arrangements. Who in the Department initiated that review of policy? When was this review initiated and completed? The start date is relevant because there is a real issue of whether the negotiations were ever being conducted in good faith. This is not a reflection on the character of Mr. O'Connell but rather a reflection on the policy that seems to have been operated by the Department.

The presentation referred to the former Minister of State, Tom Parlon, and a meeting he held in August 2006. There is no reference to a conversation which I believe Mr. Parlon had with Oonagh Buckley at which the figure of €5,500 was again discussed and was agreed. Mr. O'Connell can hide behind the issue that no written contract exists and that this is common practice in property sales generally. I believe that when people negotiate with an agency of Government, there has to be some degree of honour in such negotiations. We all regard with absolute disgust people who were involved in gazumping or people who reneged on contracts. To think the State is involved in reneging on agreements is disgusting. I think the Department has treated these people in the most appalling manner.

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh referred to the balance of issues. I can suggest another issue of balance which the Department will have to deal with. I refer to an advertisement running on local radio this morning and in the local newspapers this week about this very area, the Little Brosna and catchment area, which the Department is trying to change from a natural heritage area, NHA, to a special area of conservation, SAC. How does he expect people in this locality to enter into a meaningful conversation with the national parks and wildlife service on this issue when they see how their neighbours have been treated by the Department? As a local representative in this area, I tell them not to enter into negotiations because one does not know how they will finish and neither can one trust what is being said by representatives of the Department. Twenty miles up the road — a lot less if one goes up the Shannon — is Clonmacnoise which the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is trying to turn into a world heritage site. How can I tell landholders in that area that they should enter into discussions with the Department or the national parks and wildlife service? I have to stand up at public meetings in these areas and try to discuss agreements being made. When I meet representatives of the Department I am supposed to take in good faith that what they say is what will happen. I can never do so again having seen how these people have been treated. The Department's word is irrelevant and its word is not its bond in this instance. The Department negotiates and has discussions with people but if it decides to change its mind after negotiations have been concluded, then it will.

When the negotiations were concluded, the Department's regional manager brought these landholders out and physically showed them the bog they were going to be able to purchase from the Department in substitution for the bog they would lose. They saw that land. The Department went a long way in this process and, in my view, it has a moral obligation to fulfil this contract. The Department created a legitimate expectation, which is a legal right, that this deal would be concluded. The Department seems to have a fear that this will be a precedent. It has acknowledged in the presentation that this is a unique piece of bog which must be conserved. However, the Department failed to point out that there was a commercial expectation on this bog. Erin Peat had been using a significant portion of this land for a long number of years and it was a very valuable resource for the company. The Department is ignoring the commercial potential in this bog and this cannot be ignored. I hope I can return with other questions. The Department has set a very dangerous precedent if it expects the public, the people involved in County Offaly in particular, to enter into any type of negotiations with it because the precedent has been set that the Department's word is not its bond.

I welcome the officials to the meeting. They have inherited a set of difficult circumstances as they were not directly involved in the negotiations. I read the correspondence. I have no doubt an offer of €5,500 per acre was made. This is clearly stated and also that it was an informal arrangement. When I came into the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, I was advised by the legal officers in the Department that I had to honour the arrangement about any post office that was verbally notified to a client and that I had no choice in the matter, even though I might have wished to change some of them. It is the case that when a Minister leaves office, he or she makes a lot of decisions and these related to post offices at that time. Some decisions were made——

The Senator should plead the fifth amendment, so to speak, before he proceeds.

I have parliamentary privilege. I was told at that time that a verbal commitment had to be honoured by the Department. That is the precedent. So far as creating a precedent is concerned, it is a separate bog with separate conditions. I am interested in extending this further because we are faced with a major difficulty in the west Roscommon area. With regard to the new arrangement, what offer is the Department making now to people who have given up their bogs or may give up their bogs? Some of them are not prepared to give up their bogs. A significant valuation has been put on turf and turbary rights. Is it possible to get a map of all the bogs that have been designated? There is some secrecy attached to this issue. I have a list of the bogs in my area. What is the long-term situation on turbary rights and turf cutting in Ireland and with regard to European Union law? I have heard that the current list may be extended. No one can provide a map showing the location of the bogs. I have asked for this before. From reading all the documentation I think the Department would be as well off to deal with this issue and resolve it rather than continuing in this vein. It is a serious situation when Government officials, acting on behalf of the State, make an offer verbally which, it has been confirmed here, might save the Department any High Court costs to honour this commitment. I advise the Department in these circumstances to cut and run. I do not think this situation will create a precedent.

We will return to that issue.

I am not very familiar with this topic compared with Deputy Enright who is a local Deputy for the area. However, like Deputy Enright I worked as a solicitor for some time and did conveyancing work. There is an argument that a sale agreed agreement is not a contract but usually if a person pulls out of a sale agreed agreement, it is because that person is pulling out of the contract entirely. The Department wants to renegotiate the sale agreed price, which is unusual in conveyancing. This was referred to as any other property agreement and compared to any other property agreement but property agreements are usually based on market value. The market value in one area is different to that in another area. Supply and demand and what the parties agree on come into consideration. The idea of a set rate does not fit with property law.

I draw the attention of the witnesses to paragraph 14, which sets out that "an increased offer of €5,500 per acre was discussed between Mr. O'Connell, in consultation with Ms Oonagh Buckley", subject to contract. Are we to believe an agreement was reached between two people? Did both parties leaving the discussion believe an agreement had been reached? The next paragraph suggests this is the case: "However, before this final offer was confirmed, the matter was reviewed within the Department." It seems the witnesses are accepting agreement was reached between the parties but the document refers to a discussion.

Can we establish whether agreement was reached at that level? Can the witnesses outline the chain of command within the Department in terms of who signed off on what? At what point does a discussion or an agreement become affirmed? I do not have a legal mind and those who do have already spoken and covered this well. Regardless of the level at which someone acts within a Department, before going out to reach agreement or entering into negotiations, there is some kind of delegated responsibility to reach agreement. Those delegated have the authority to do so on behalf of the Minister. When they enter into negotiations, they have a warrant to do so, which may not be signed but is accepted. If they enter into these negotiations in good faith and the two parties shake hands or knock heads at the end of the meeting, both parties go away believing they have an agreement subject to whatever provisions are required. It was only a matter of form that it would be affirmed or confirmed. Any policy review or a change in policy is a separate matter and applies to any discussions that might be entered into from there on. Whatever the prevailing arrangements, this was what applied to discussions between the parties. It is grossly unfair to suggest this was not confirmed and needed to be affirmed, that if the wind changed, the decision could be pulled. Technically and legally, perhaps this can be done but morally it cannot be done. Where all parties entered into a particular process in good faith, there is a necessity to deal with the conditions as they existed at the time.

Many people in the current climate would like to change their position with regard to the banking crisis. Many people with mortgages wish to apply today's economic circumstances to where they now find themselves. They cannot do that. Agreements have been signed but as far as I am concerned, when the group met and knocked heads, clinked glasses or shook hands, this was the agreement. This was based on the conditions at the time and must be stood up.

Reference is made to a precedent. No precedent can come into play if the prevailing winds have changed and the policy has changed. This applies to future contract negotiations and discussions because anyone coming to the table at a later time knows that things have changed. The price of houses goes up and down. Buying a house three years ago, there was a set price but now circumstances are different.

It can be argued that the reverse is taking place in respect of the price of turf. It is becoming a more scarce resource and the designation of SACs reduces the amount of turf available to cut. One can argue that the value of the bog has increased because there is less of the resource available and economic circumstances have changed so that people are prepared to cut turf. It is a cheaper form of fuel as against fluctuating oil prices. The deal was done and it was fair and equitable at the time. I ask the witnesses to re-examine this and give due consideration to the principle of that agreement and the discussion.

Senator Pat Moylan conveyed his desire to be here but owing to a call on his time he is unable to attend. He has briefed me on the issue.

I am not a member of this committee and I am happy to stand back if members are present.

Everyone will be accommodated.

I attended the committee when the delegation appeared the first day. I am the only Member of the House who received a letter from the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government a few weeks ago telling me to clear off my bog. A fortnight ago I was told never to stand on my bog again. There are shades of that in this case. I read the transcript and heard the comments of committee members. As colleagues have said, a deal is a deal. I do not attribute any blame to the officials in attendance. I assume it would be handled in the same way irrespective of who will be in the shoes of the officials here today. I do not want to personalise this matter. I have a major issue with the Department. In our case, because we are politicians, we refer to the Minister of the time.

The Minister had a particularly good reason to deal with those people at €5,500. That figure was not plucked out of the air. There was a good reason why the All Saints bog was worth €5,500 per acre. My bog is worth €250,000 per acre. There is enough turf where I am leaving to do my son and his son for the next 100 years. Adding this gives an idea of how insignificant is the sum of €5,500. We will hear an awful lot more about the value of turbary rights in the next 12 months. We will certainly not walk off the bog silently for anyone. That is in our culture.

It comes back to the question of the Department having ground rules when the €5,500 per acre was offered. The Valuation Office used to be in Ely Place when farms were being transferred. They had a mechanism for finding the value of an acre of land in Galway, Offaly or Cork. If the solicitor for the transferee offered something like the value, it was accepted to go through the Revenue Commissioners. It is the same basis as that of the turf. I refer to Mr. O'Connell because his name appears on this so often. It is not the case that the deal was done on the day and that Mr. O'Connell realised he had offered too much for the bog when he went home that day. Moreover, he had this in his head for the next six months because he was in contact with Mr. Canny, with whom he discussed the measurements of the bog, the title to it and all the other matters to which the deal was subject. I appreciate fully that the State cannot buy property unless its owner has full and clear title to it. All this arose months later, which meant that not alone was Mr. O'Connell sure of it on the day he made the deal, he was sure of it for months afterwards. This is only what I would expect of a civil servant doing his or her job.

I know what happened in the end. Consideration was given on a nationwide basis to what would happen with all the other bogs and a deal suddenly was done whereby the amount people were likely to receive for coming off an special area of conservation bog was set at €3,000 per acre. One should call a spade a spade. The point about All Saints bog is that no decision had been made by the Government regarding any other level of compensation when Mr. O'Connell made that particular deal with the All Saints people. Were this to find its way before a High Court judge, I believe he would rule in favour of the people on the All Saints bog. The Department would be unable to show that the new scheme was in place when the deal was made with them and obviously the Department cannot state retrospectively that that was then and this is now. While I believe it would be unable to do so, it would be a tragedy for both the people on the All Saints bog and every taxpayer in Ireland were the Department to decide this should become a court case that was drawn out over several weeks or months. Who who would pay the piper except the taxpayers? The witnesses have been reflecting on this matter for long enough and have had plenty of time to do so. However, I genuinely believe that right is on the side of the people with whom the deal was made in all sincerity and based on the proper norms and procedures with which the Department conducted its business at that time. That is my case.

I will follow on from the point made by Deputy Connaughton. It is extraordinary that members are discussing this issue. An agreement was made but it has dragged on for a further four years. The Department is digging in its heels on an agreement that was reached. As other speakers have noted, this is a unique situation involving 14 people. Concluding this deal certainly would not create a precedent because, as has been stated, this agreement was made before any other decisions were made on compensation for these bogs. If litigation is entered into, which, given the manner in which the Department continues to dig in its heels, is the way matters are heading at present, it will cost taxpayers a fortune. While the people concerned undoubtedly will win this case ultimately, that victory will result in a loss for taxpayers. I appeal to the Department to make a decision to agree to cut its losses by honouring the agreement that was made and by getting on with dealing with the rest of it. This matter should not have come to an Oireachtas committee either now or in the past. This should be resolved and put out of the way. Anyone with the right presence of mind would be able to solve this issue. People should get real and this issue should be resolved.

Members must forgive me if I am going back over old ground as they are more familiar with this issue then am I. Given that this is a voluntary purchase scheme and that a price was agreed with the farming representative organisations, presumably primarily with the IFA, why did the Department decide to pursue it with such vigour beyond the negotiated per acre price? Why cross that threshold? Having done so, it is very difficult to come back from it. As Deputy Enright noted, although the entire Shannon callows is an important habitat from the point of view of the national parks and wildlife service, one outcome is that negotiations on future arrangements around Clonmacnoise and so on become more difficult. It appears as though there is much to be gained by resolving this matter and I share Senator Cummins's amazement that members are discussing it.

I invite the witnesses to respond. Does Mr. Ó Raghallaigh wish to go first?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

I thank members for their questions. The principal question concerns the reason we got into these negotiations in the first place when, by the time they commenced, we had made an agreement with farmers' representative organisations on a price that was to be paid per acre under the voluntary scheme that was to apply whether the turf or the bog were good or otherwise. From my perspective, it is very difficult to look back and put myself in the shoes of the officials who entered into these negotiations in the first place. There were attractions in so doing in terms of the number of bog plots that were adjacent to one another that were coming up for discussion in one instance. In one respect, this made it attractive to try to close the deal on them all at once in order that we could get a block of this bog on which we could work to implement restoration work all at once. I presume that was the attraction at the time. Looking back on it from a policy perspective, I do not think it was a good decision to commence these negotiations at all. Personally I agree with the decision that was made ultimately not to conclude those negotiations because of the precedent it would set. A number of members have stated that this situation is unique but it is not. Within the Department we are at present processing 1,200 applicants through the voluntary purchase scheme and the people concerned are happy to go with the rates that were agreed with the farming organisations.

Most of them have been waiting for two or three years for their money.

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

I accept that.

No credit is due to the Department on that issue.

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

No, but they are being processed and they will be concluded at those rates. My view is that were we to go outside those rates to give people between €2,000 and €2,500 more than the agreed rates, that would become the new bottom price for people. If I had an application into the Department at €3,000 per acre and I heard that someone else was getting €5,500 per acre, I would feel aggrieved. Ultimately, there is a price to all of this and we have 1,200 applicants. Most of our purchases have concluded at approximately €20,000 per land acquisition deal. Therefore, if one multiplies the 1,200 applications by 20,000, one comes to a figure of approximately €24 million. Were one to increase that amount by a further €2,000 per acre, it would result in quite a sizeable increase and a sizeable burden for the taxpayer. Again, this presumably was the consideration that went into concluding that this deal could not be finalised.

It is regrettable that it dragged on for so long. Possibly one reason the policy decision was not taken until late in the day is that the context was changing as the end of the derogation was approaching rapidly. This was a long drawn-out negotiation which perhaps became a victim of its own duration in that the very real price of effecting a cessation on these bogs was becoming obvious to departmental officials.

I was asked by Deputy Dooley about the hierarchy in the Department. There is a unit, headed by Mr. O'Connell, which deals with bog purchasing, bog acquisition and the implementation of orders for the cessation of turf cutting on designated bogs. Mr. O'Connell reports to me. I am a director of the National Parks and Wildlife Service and I report to an assistant secretary. The Secretary General is in charge.

The negotiations were entered into and continued. They were not intensive for the full duration in that there were waves and troughs. When the decision was eventually made, it was brought to the attention of the then assistant secretary. He said that, on the basis of policy, the Department could not go ahead with the proposal because of the implications it would have for other similar cases and that it could not go ahead in the light of the upcoming end of the derogation on the bogs in question. That is reasonable. It is unfortunate that individual landowners believe they may have been led up the garden path by the Department. That is very understandable from their perspective. It is regrettable, but, in terms of the decision taken, I do not believe my predecessors had any other choice in the circumstances.

This is not the end of the landowners' discussions or involvement with the Department on the issue. They received the letters received by Deputy Connaughton. They were signed by me, not by the Minister.

It was extremely helpful.

Will we negotiate on the price now or wait until later?

It is €5,000 per acre.

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

These issues have been dealt with at length at meetings of the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, at which turf cutting and the habitats directive are often discussed. The Government has decided that turf cutting on the bogs in question must come to an end to enable Ireland to meet its obligations under the directive. It is considering compensation for affected landowners, including those involved in this case. It is likely to return to this issue in the not too distant future to conclude a compensation package with a range of suggested alternatives, not only including purchase, which are being discussed by the Government.

Unfortunately, we must suspend for a vote.

With regard to maps showing all the borders——

We will return to this issue. I have a number of questions I want to ask, as I am sure other members have also. We will suspend the sitting and resume after the vote.

I may not be able to return. If we do not reach a successful conclusion today, can the matter be referred to the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government?

It has already considered it.

Has it? If so, we will proceed with it.

Sitting suspended at 1.35 p.m. and resumed at 1.55 p.m.

Has Mr. Ó Raghallaigh concluded?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

I had answered a number of questions. If there are any I have not addressed, perhaps members might remind me.

I have a question. From where did the figure of €5,500 come originally? Who introduced it?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

My understanding is that a number of figures were discussed at various stages. The last one to be discussed was €5,500 per acre; lower amounts had previously been discussed and rejected by the landowners. I believe €5,100 was one of the figures rejected.

Mr.Ó Raghallaigh said that under the voluntary purchase scheme, standard rates of €3,500 for the first acre and €3,000 per acre thereafter were being offered to those interested in selling and that these rates had been agreed with farming representative groups in 2004. In this case the landowners did not wish to sell their holdings to the State at these rates. What was the purpose in introducing a sum in excess of these rates if there was a regulation on the sums likely to be offered?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

Again, it is difficult to say at this juncture. I presume the reason the rates agreed with the farming representative organisations were departed from possibly had to do with the attractiveness of having so much of one bog involved in one negotiation. In retrospect, the decision made at the time to enter into negotiations on that basis was ill-advised. However, I presume that is what the motivation was at the time.

For whatever reason, that figure was discussed. Is this accepted by all sides?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

Yes, it is.

Therefore, Mr. Ó Raghallaigh cannot honestly resile from it and say, in effect, "We did not intend to pay that figure in any event."

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

I do not believe we can. We were discussing whether the negotiations had been entered into in good faith by ourselves, the landowners and the officials involved at the time. Without doubt, that is the case, the officials on the departmental side entered into the discussions in good faith and at the time might have assumed a deal would have been concluded on this basis. However, the environment within which we operate in the Department is such that all of these decisions are subject to review by more senior officials and that is what happened on this occasion. The senior official decided it was in the best interests of policy, in the taxpayer's interest presumably, to conclude this deal.

Had that senior official authorised the negotiations in the first place?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

It is not clear to me that he did.

Is it clear to Mr. O'Connell?

Mr. James O’Connell

It was before my time also, but the practice was that, at assistant director level, negotiations could take place outside the voluntary scheme, for example, with commercial turf cutters, which might end in an agreement on an amount to be paid in compensation. At assistant director level, deals had previously been signed off. However, any such deal proposed could, of course, be countermanded at a more senior level, as is only to be expected.

An interesting point arises in that regard. What status would somebody sent to negotiate have if the intention was to the effect, "You can negotiate whatever you wish, but we are not going to honour it"? That would have had to be understood on somebody's part.

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

Looking back at the transcript of the committee's previous meeting with Mr. Canny and the landowners, the dynamics of the negotiations were such that he was representing the landowners and the officials were representing the Department. At several junctures Mr. Canny agreed to something, but the landowners decided against. That was the case when the sum of €5,100 was discussed. When officials from the Department enter into negotiations on land acquisition or other agreements, they are always subject to verification or confirmation, either by a more senior official or the Minister in some cases.

As former Ministers will know, approval in such a case is standard, the presumption being the negotiations were approved in the first instance and the outcome — if it is within the instructions given to the negotiators — is acceptable. In how many such cases was a sum in excess of €3,500 paid throughout the country?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

None.

Why then in this case did somebody indicate that negotiations on a sum above and beyond that amount would take place? Was the National Parks and Wildlife Service not barred from having discussions on a figure in excess of €3,500?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

I do not believe our officials at the time were barred from discussing it. However, it was unusual. I am not aware of any other negotiations that took place with domestic turf cutters.

However, Mr. Ó Raghallaigh earlier said there were negotiations with commercial turf cutters involving sums in excess of this figure. Were they paid?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

The provision for compensation for commercial turf cutters differs from that for domestic turf cutters. Compensation arises where a commercial activity is stopped because of the requirements of the habitats directive or protection of the site necessitates it. What is being paid for in compensation in these cases not only includes the value of the land but also the value of the commercial enterprise or income derived from it. It may also include the potential income that may arise.

Is that laid down in the regulations?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

Yes, compensation for commercial turf cutters is often subject to detailed negotiations and arbitration in some cases.

I am aware of that. However, I am a bit uneasy as to how the scheme operates. It appears a different regime could apply to commercial operators. I do not know why that should be, even though it is laid down in the regulations, because the individual has the same rights and entitlements as a commercial operator under the law. I am not suggesting lawyers take a particular constitutional case but an individual householder could be equally dependent on his or her turbary rights.

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

The Chairman is correct. There is a provision in law for them to seek compensation in cases in which they suffer an actual loss because of a refusal by the Minister to allow them to conduct a notifiable activity, in this case turf cutting.

How much would the compensation amount to?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

The amount is not prescribed but there is a methodology to calculate it. The Minister would offer the sums agreed in the voluntary purchase scheme. If the person affected was not content with this, there are provisions to go to arbitration.

What was the highest sum paid per acre to a commercial operator or otherwise?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

It is not determined on a per acre basis.

I am aware of that.

Mr. James O’Connell

The difference between the case in question and negotiations with commercial operators is that the scheme for domestic turf cutters is a voluntary scheme. Up to now, they have had the option to continue turf cutting for domestic purposes or voluntarily sell their turbary rights to the Department. The commercial operators were obliged to stop their businesses which gave rise to a statutory obligation to compensate them.

I am becoming more mystified as to the role of the Joint Committee on European Affairs in this matter.

I will explain that.

There is the most tenuous of links to the habitats directive in this discussion.

No, we had this ten years ago at this committee. The habitats directive derives from the Department initially and eventually from the EU. The Department agrees in response to the EU as to where and to what extent the directive should apply. There is a notion that all directives originate in Brussels but they do not. They are submitted and agreed on. Brussels requests that in accordance with the habitats directive, as happened in this and other cases, that the Government would submit a proposal and plan for compliance with the directive. That has been done.

The next part is to determine whether the procedures followed are in accordance with the rules and regulations laid down in the habitats directive, anticipated by the individuals directly affected and by Brussels which gives it its imprimatur.

The Joint Committee on European Affairs is supposed to examine the extent to which the policy of the State and the EU converge. It is also supposed to examine the extent to which there is a flaw as a result of one or both parties creating a problem or a problem being caused otherwise.

Senator Dearey can rest assured that this discussion is well within the committee's remit.

Can I take it that this convergence includes this committee's approval at the end of the ten-year derogation, which is now, that these raised bogs are now protected?

Yes. This committee also discussed this matter ten years ago. We discovered Ireland had the highest number of SACs of any country in Europe, with the exception of Denmark. The reason Denmark had a higher number was because it had a multiplicity of islands and estuaries affected by SAC rules. These, however, were mainly river and marine habitats.

Ireland has been the largest contributor in this area and remains so. Those with turbary rights have been directly affected by this particular directive. Any interference with an individual's right to property and to pursue enterprise must be governed by domestic law and be in compliance with EU law. In the event of where one or other is found to be defective, there is only one answer. The committee discusses the matter.

Senator Dearey can be assured that the implementation of the SACs in the case of bogs will cause some serious problems. These will have to be addressed by both national and EU institutions and may well have to be reviewed. That is a fact of life. Nothing is written in stone.

The Chairman claims that because Ireland has the highest proportion of listed SACs, second only to Denmark, it weakens the entitlement of any SAC to protection. That is a dangerous road to go down.

If we create a bottom price of €5,500 on all other purchases of rights, which is what this deal will do, the scheme will become unenforceable and the State will not be able to afford to pursue these purchases. There are some serious long-term implications in this approach.

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh indicated it was an ill-advised decision to enter into negotiations. I understand a legitimate expectation has been created for the gentlemen in question and it is an intractable problem. The carrot was that a large amount of bog in one negotiation would suddenly become the property of the State and a valuable source for the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS. It strikes me that there may have been not just a carrot but a ministerial stick waving in the background which may have caused the NPWS to go down this route. It further complicates matters and makes a resolution more difficult.

I am not sure the direction the Chairman is giving the committee on coming up with a resolution. What will emerge from today's proceedings that will unravel the range of complex issues that have been created in this case?

As in all good disputes, we have to have the debate first and the resolution afterwards. The costs to the State, as pointed out to the committee when the matter was addressed previously and the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, are noted, but they are not the fundamental issue which is whether a particular commitment was made on the basis of which people may have entered into various contracts. They may have done their own bookkeeping in a particular fashion that could subsequently lead to embarrassment.

I have suggested there are too many SACs. This point was raised by the committee 12 years ago. Members said at the time that it was not necessary, for environmental and other reasons, for Ireland to become the sole provider of SACs throughout the European Union, with the exception of Denmark.

The statement that Ireland is the sole provider of SACs is a gross exaggeration.

No, it is not. We examined the matter. If the Senator does so in the same detail, he will find that the committee was correct at the time. Deputy Barrett was a member then. We put a lot of time into our inquiry because we foresaw the circumstances that would arise when the derogation ended. The committee spent a great deal of time asking how Ireland compared with other countries with a similar population and landmass. There was no comparison and that remains the case.

There are a number of points to be made on this matter. Mr. Ó Raghallaigh was not present at the time in question. He is, therefore, considering the matter with the benefit of hindsight and I am genuinely concerned about some of his remarks. While he cannot put himself in the shoes of his predecessors, he should note that his predecessor, Ms Buckley, was the director. She had bosses but had power and was aware of the negotiations being concluded and the figure of €5,500. The people involved, through Mr. Kenny, were given five days within which to respond. That was a very narrow timeframe, given that the negotiatiions had been protracted. However, they responded within five days, which was difficult considering the problem in getting 14 people to meet in such a short period. It was not until well after this point that the offer was retracted. Surely the Department should have acted before the owners were given a deadline of five days if it knew the agreement reached would not be honoured. Not doing so was a mistake on its behalf. That mistake alone should allow for the honouring of the deal which should be honoured without setting a precedent because a mistake, probably genuine, was made by the Department.

Mr. Ó Raghallaigh now believes the decision was not good and that he would not have commenced negotiations in the first place. While that is fine and it may be his opinion, it is not relevant. The IFA deal was not relevant either because the Department had voluntarily agreed to enter negotiations independent of that deal. Therefore, it has nothing to do with the matter. The Department could have said there would be no deal other than that proposed, but it did not do so.

There is a difference between domestic and commercial turf-cutting. The bog had considerable commercial potential. Erin Peats was paid €8,500 per acre for its land, which was cutaway or used bog. The bog to which I refer was virgin bog and in absolutely perfect condition. If we want to go down the route of arguing about the price, we can do so. The Department knew the figures before it made the deal.

Ultimately, I do not want into get into a discussion on SACs in general. I support the concept and recognise their value, although this is not always politically beneficial. All Saints bog has a perfect esker and callows. One community is being asked to do a lot which, to some extent, is fine, as the community has really gone along with the proposals. The behaviour of the 14 individuals involved has been impeccable, but they have not been treated in the same impeccable manner by the Department.

Senator Dearey has effectively asked what we are doing here. I acknowledge representatives of the Department cannot come to this meeting and change its decision. Ultimately, the final signing off on all these decisions is political. I would have liked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to have been in a position to attend today.

He was invited.

We could have met on another day. I would have come in on Christmas Day had it been necessary.

He was shy, but he was invited.

Although I am not a member of the joint committee, I ask that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government review the decision in the light of the negotiations which have taken place, the information we gleaned at the last meeting on the subject and what has been outlined today. There are grounds for the decision to be reviewed without setting a precedent, which is what should happen. If I am not allowed to make this proposal, perhaps a member of the committee can do so.

I have no problem in making that proposal.

We are in danger of discussing two very different issues. I could spend the next 24 hours debating some of the points made today. Senator Dearey and I attach very different values to bogs. He has referred to the sum of €5,500 that the All Saints bog owners were offered. There is enough turf in my acre of bog to keep fires burning for my family for the next 100 years. Everybody knows this because one only cuts a few metres every year. Everybody who knows anything about a bog understands this.

The Department has decided that those who did not cut turf this year will receive €1,000. If they do not cut turf for the next 50 or 100 years, should they not receive €50,000 or €100,000 rather than the €3,000 per acre being offered? Let us call a spade a spade. I refer to the relative value of what the Department is trying to take from the owners, but that is another story and one to which I will not refer today. The sum of €5,500 being offered to the owners of the All Saints bog is not exorbitant, as Mr. Ó Raghallaigh and the Department will find out in the next 12 months. Irrespective of whether the figure offered is €3,000 or €5,500, the relative value of what the Department is confiscating from me and thousands like me has been underestimated. I rest my case. I fully agree with what has been said.

I am an advocate of SACs. I am a farmer and in the REPS. I fully understand, therefore, what is at stake and do more for the environment than most, but I will not stand for the confiscation of bog of the type being confiscated, given that there are thousands of acres of bog around the country, on which nobody stands, that could serve the Department's purposes just as well. That is my problem, about which the Department will hear a lot more in the future.

With regard to Deputy Enright's proposal, I ask that the Minister be informed of the committee's unanimous resolution that bog owners have been short-changed and are being dealt with unjustly. In the Houses of Parliament such a resolution should stand for something.

I do not differ from the Deputy on the question of value. The point I am making is that the sum of €5,500 creates a new bottom in the market. We cannot get away from that fact. If it is possible to proceed in another way, I would love to hear how it can be done. That is not how the market works generally.

I guarantee that if the Senator hangs around for another year, he will know what the bottom price of bog will be.

A number of issues arise. Is there anything Mr. O'Connell wishes to add? He entered office in April 2007, at which time the negotiations were continuing.

Mr. James O’Connell

Yes.

Why was he negotiating, given that the sum about which he was talking was above the recommended figure? If the Minister wanted to come out and do it he can, but it has to be approved. Why should any officials negotiate for a figure that was in excess of the recommended going rate at the time?

Mr. James O’Connell

At the time that I took over the negotiations, as has been noted, an offer of €5,100 had been made which, as the Chairman said, was considerably in excess of the voluntary scheme rates. My task at that stage was to determine whether it was possible to conclude a deal because the sum of €5,100 was not accepted by the landowners. It would, of course, have been open to me at that stage not to continue the negotiations but to decide at that point that there would be no agreement. However, having arrived in the position I continued the discussions with Mr. Kenny and an effort was made at that point to determine if there could be agreement by both sides on a marginally increased offer, that is, an increase from €5,100 to €5,500.

Who gave the instructions to try to extend the offer marginally? Did Mr. O'Connell do it of his volition in accordance with the previous guidelines or were extra or new instructions given?

Mr. James O’Connell

No, there were no new instructions given. When the file was handed to me the handover discussion indicated that it was a matter for me but that it would probably be my task to attempt to determine if a conclusion of this deal and a mutual agreement by both sides was possible.

You did it in good faith.

Mr. James O’Connell

Absolutely.

As did the respondents.

Mr. James O’Connell

Yes.

We cannot force anybody——

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

May I come in on one point that the Chairman raised in terms of the extent of SACs in Ireland? My understanding is that some 12% of the land area of the State is designated for Natura 2000 which includes SACs and special protection areas for birds. Since the discussions 12 years ago, Ireland lost a court case in front of the European Court of Justice which found, in separate court cases, that we had not designated enough SACs and SPAs. My understanding is that currently 20% of the land mass of the European Union is now under designation for Natura 2000 and in Ireland the figure is approximately 12%.

There is an answer to that. In Ireland many more people who depend for their livelihoods live in the countryside than in a number of other European countries. I refer to the Netherlands, with a population of approximately 16 million, and Belgium, with a population of 14 million. Slightly more people live in rural areas live in the Netherlands than do in Belgium. The fact of the matter remains that there are very few other European countries that have the same fabric of people living in and dependent on the countryside as we have in Ireland. There is now considerable concern, which arose during the referenda on the Lisbon treaty, in particular during the first one, that it now appears to the population of some parts of the country a decision was made to circumnavigate the people or treat them in a different fashion to those in other walks of life.

A Commissioner attended the Houses of the Oireachtas on one occasion and mentioned the rural development programme as the ultimate, in terms of what we should aspire to. In the context of the rural development programme and taking in SACs and other developments, there would be fairly substantial displacement of the livelihoods of people in rural Ireland. It is not just parkland, it is also a commercial entity and people need to recognise that.

Ireland lost a court case in Europe. There is a famous story where a lady asked why the judge made such a decision as he was wrong. The court might not be right either. If the case was presented differently and the situation, as is now emerging in this country, was made known, and all the other things which go with it, it might have been different. It is a very emotional issue. One has to remember it will have a huge reaction in rural Ireland. It is not a simple matter which will go away. It is a serious issue. Quoting regulations and the court case is fine but it does not take away from the reality.

We should start with the facts.

As a new member of the committee, Senator Dearey, I have great respect for you.

I am getting a bit bolshie; I know that.

I have great respect for you. However, we deal with facts in this committee and nothing else.

I have not been involved in this until now but I read the correspondence. What is confusing me is the letter Mr. O'Connell sent to Mr. Kenny which refers to discussions which have taken place regarding the possible purchase of bog land at All Saints bog and the rates of compensation to be paid to the landowners. One buys something from somebody, one does not compensate them. There is a difference between the language being used. If one compensates somebody for not using the land, one is paying them for leaving it lying idle. However, if one is buying it from somebody there is a value. There is a difference between compensation and the purchase of land. I am confused. Are we talking about the ownership of the land remaining in the hands of the owners of All Saints bog and Esker and compensation being paid for the bog not to be used or are we buying the bogs from the persons in question?

I do not understand the use of this language and I hope it is not being used deliberately because it has to be clear that if I am buying something, I am buying it and paying the market value at the time. As Deputy Connaughton said before he left the meeting, the value of the lifespan of bog land differs from one area to another, from the quality of the turf to the quantity of turf available and whether it is entirely new and unused. One cannot put down a similar value all over the country. Would somebody clarify whether we are discussing compensation or purchase price?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

I referred to purchase price. It was probably an inappropriate use of the word "compensation".

Mr. James O’Connell

It is both, actually, because we compensate people for ceasing to cut turf but in the scheme there is also an option to sell the land freehold. There are purchase and compensation elements. The language is perhaps a bit lose but it is language which we inherited. This scheme has been called the bog compensation scheme since 1999.

With respect, one can have compensation but not own the bog. That is the big difference and that is where this issue begins and ends. The National Parks and Wildlife Service is asking somebody to sell it something, not to compensate him or her for not using it. It can do what it likes with it if it buys in from him or her. It cannot say it is part of a compensation scheme because they are two different things. One buys something directly and the other compensates a person for not using something. Therefore, to compare prices as the going rate for compensation and say it was X and we were offering X plus, and then retract it on the original negotiations is totally different. The value of something is the potential that it has. As Deputy Connaughton said, if a bog has 100 or ten years left, the one with 100 years left is more valuable.

For clarity, Mr Ó Raghallaigh's predecessor was aware of the €5,500 figure. Is that correct?

Mr. Conor Ó Raghallaigh

Yes.

As a matter of interest — it is not going to provide a solution — does Mr. O'Connell still conduct negotiations for the Department? Before a final offer is made, does Mr. O'Connell, or whoever is doing the job now, have to go back to check that the Department is happy with it? Is the Department continuing to carry on in the same way?

Mr. James O’Connell

No negotiations of a similar nature are taking place. No rates above the voluntary purchase rates paid to individual domestic turf cutters have been negotiated since——

There is no precedent then. What is the fear if there are no other negotiations taking place?

Mr. James O’Connell

The precedent about which we are talking is that the rates offered — €5,100 or, ultimately, €5,500 — would be very likely, as Senator Dearey said, to become the minimum we would have to offer in any future deals under the voluntary purchase scheme.

They absolutely would not, especially because of the way this has been handled.

How would one come to such a conclusion?

No negotiations are taking place.

We have proposed that the Minister be advised of the situation and the committee's belief people had a legitimate expectation in this case. We should make it clear that the matter needs to be resolved as a matter of urgency.

The joint committee cannot force anybody to do anything. It can make a recommendation and refer it to the Minister. The members of the committee have done this. I thank Mr. Ó Raghallaigh and Mr. O'Connell for coming before the committee.

I add the proviso that it would be better to do it without creating a new base rate. In other words, it should not compromise the rest of the scheme. I have serious doubts, however, about whether that can be achieved.

I draw the Senator's attention to the letter sent by John J. Reidy & Co. on 1 April 2008 in which the person in question went into detail on the matter. He seems to be sure of his ground. We will see how it goes.

I thank the officials for coming before the committee. We had hoped they would not have to come before us again. We had hoped the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government would have solved this problem. We also invited the Minister to come before the committee to give members an opportunity to coax, cajole, convince, assist and inspire him, or whatever one does in such situations.

We thank the delegates for coming before us. I also thank the members of the committee and the other Deputies for their attendance. I thank the various representatives who attended courteously. The committee will deal with the rest of its agenda next week. If there is anything else we need to deal with urgently, we can do so in private session.

The joint committee went into private session at 2.35 p.m. and adjourned at 2.40 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 13 July 2010.
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