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JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 Jan 2011

General Affairs and Foreign Affairs Council Meetings: Discussion with Minister of State

As this, presumably, is the last sitting of the joint committee during this Dáil session, at the outset I thank all members for their attendance. There are many distractions around the House at present and in particular I thank those members who have found it possible to attend today. I also thank the diplomatic corps and the press for their attendance, as well as the Minister of State, who also has other competing demands. I understand he is about to address the French Senate within the next couple of days on issues that have been discussed repeatedly in this joint committee, with particular reference to Ireland's corporation tax rate and other issues of Irish interest. Perhaps the Minister of State might reiterate the opinions of the joint committee in the course of such discussions because there will be many other discussions along those lines.

The first item on the agenda is a discussion on the forthcoming General Affairs and Foreign Affairs Council meetings and I welcome to the joint committee the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs with special responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Roche. Apologies have been received from Senators Cummins, Dearey, Donohue and Prendergast and from Deputy Howlin. In addition, Deputy Tuffy has been obliged to leave the meeting to attend to another matter. On this momentous occasion, I call on the Minister of State to address the joint committee.

I thank the Chairman and members. I welcome, as always, the opportunity to meet the joint committee to review the agenda of next week's General Affairs and Foreign Affairs Council meetings. I propose to brief the committee on the key matters discussed at these Councils in December before turning to the matters on the agenda for this month. The December General Affairs Council focussed primarily on preparations for the European Council which was held on 16 and 17 December. It had extensive discussion of enlargement and covered European disaster response, cohesion policy, and implementation of the Europe 2020 strategy. The Council approved regulations providing for the renewal of the existing derogation on the use of Irish by the EU institutions until December 2016. I was disappointed that a Member of the Parliament made what I hope were unintentionally negative reference to the use of Irish in EU institutions. We fought long and hard to have our language given the recognition I think it is due. Even though I am far from a Gaelgoir, I was proud to have achieved that objective during the Irish Presidency. The Foreign Affairs Council discussed political developments in the Western Balkans, Sudan, the Middle East peace process, Somalia, Afghanistan, Moldova, the OSCE, Iran and relations with our strategic partners.

I will now turn to next week's Council meetings. Next week's meeting will be the first General Affairs Council of the incoming Hungarian Presidency, although an informal meeting of Ministers has already been held. The main focus of this month's General Affairs Council will be the preparation of the European Council on 4 February.

The February European Council will examine the thematic issues of energy and innovation and fits within the approach of the President of the European Council, Mr. van Rompuy, to developing the European Council's strategic input to key EU economic sectors. The initial draft of the European Council conclusions on the issue of energy highlights the importance of an integrated and interconnected energy European market. It is anticipated that an effort will be made to set targets for the removal of technical and regulatory barriers hampering the transmission of various energy sources across Europe. The draft conclusions also highlight the importance of energy efficiency and renewable energy. During the discussions on these draft conclusions, Ireland has highlighted the importance of securing the necessary investment so that security of supply can be ensured.

On innovation, the first draft of the conclusions recognise investment in innovation as a key driver of growth and as playing important role in creating sustainable employment and tackling the most critical societal challenges, such as climate change, aging populations, sustainable development and food and energy security. The draft conclusions highlight the importance of completing the European research area and improving the framework conditions for innovative companies, including standardisation procedures, the role of innovation in public procurement and the strengthening of intellectual property rights. Among other contributions to discussions on these draft conclusions, we have sought to highlight intellectual property rights as an aspect of the framework conditions which can be improved. Ireland has a particular interest in this discussion given the responsibilities of the Commissioner for Research, Innovation and Science, Máire Geoghegan-Quinn.

The primary focus of the working sessions at the February European Council will be the issues of energy and innovation but heads of state and government may avail of the lunchtime discussion to update on the work being carried out on foot of last December's European Council consideration of reinforcing the stability of the eurozone. The substantive follow-up to these issues at European Council level, including the proposed European Financial Stability Mechanism, is anticipated to take place at its March 2011 meeting.

The Hungarian Presidency will present to Council its Presidency programme. It will also present to Ministers at the General Affairs Council a road map on its proposed handling of the implementation of the European semester, which envisages that member states will present stability and convergence programmes to the Commission in the spring of each year to facilitate greater ex ante co-ordination of economic policies and discussion of national fiscal policy intentions throughout the Union before they take the form of detailed budgetary proposals later in the year. The General Affairs Council will also hear a presentation from the Commissioner for Regional Policy, Johannes Hahn on the EU Strategy for the Danube region. The Hungarian Presidency will also present its road map for Roma inclusion. These issues are particularly significant for the Hungarian Presidency.

The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Catherine Ashton, has proposed to focus discussion at the Foreign Affairs Council on the situation on Tunisia, Belarus and Lebanon. The Council will discuss the current political turbulence in Tunisia following the downfall of former President Ben Ali. The Council is likely to endorse a clear message of solidarity with the Tunisian people in their peaceful struggle for democracy. The clear priority remains the organisation of free, fair and credible elections as soon as can be arranged within the six month timeframe allowed under the Tunisian constitution. A range of measures for extending practical assistance and support to the democratic transition are now being considered at EU level, including an electoral observation mission in due course and, more immediately, an asset freeze aimed at the family of the deposed President if this is be considered helpful by the Tunisian authorities.

Ministers will discuss Belarus following the deeply flawed presidential election on 19 December and the subsequent violent crackdown on opposition candidates, political activists, civil society and journalists. Ireland strongly condemned the use of force and widespread arrests by the authorities in the wake of the election. Those still in custody should be released. Ministers are expected to agree a package of measures aimed at the political and administrative leaders most associated with the conduct of the election and its violent aftermath. In discussions in Brussels on these measures, Ireland has argued for a firm and swift response by the EU. The EU has always made it clear that it is ready to engage positively with Belarus. However, this policy is conditional on respect for the principles of democracy, rule of law and human rights. As members will be aware, Ireland has developed a close relationship with the people of Belarus, particularly through the valuable work of NGOs such as the Chernobyl Children's Trust. It is perhaps more important, now more than ever, that the EU continues to reach out to civil society in Belarus to support the emergence of an open and democratic society.

The Council will also discuss recent events in Lebanon, in particular the recent collapse of the national unity government and the handing down of indictments against unnamed but suspected senior Hezbollah figures by the special tribunal investigating the February 2005 assassination of former Prime Minister Hariri. Efforts to form a new government are underway. President Suleiman has asked the Hezbollah supported candidate to become Prime Minister designate and attempt to form a new Administration. I am sure the Council will wish to send out a clear message of its continuing support for the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Lebanon, urge restraint and intensified dialogue at this sensitive time and at the same time urge full co-operation on the part of all inside Lebanon and the wider region with the special tribunal and its important work.

A brief discussion is expected on the situation in Cote d'lvoire following the disputed presidential elections of late last year. The situation in the country remains serious and the EU has already adopted restrictive measures against former President Gbagbo's regime. Council conclusions will welcome African and UN moves to resolve the situation, note the restrictive measures in place and support continuing humanitarian aid for refugees who have fled the country.

The Sahel and Sudan are also on the Council agenda for Monday. Conclusions will be adopted in both cases but detailed discussions are unlikely. In Sudan, counting is underway in the historic referendum on self-determination for the South. The result will not be known until next month but a vote for secession seems likely. Crucially, the Government of Sudan has stated it will accept the outcome. Ministers will pledge continuing EU support for Sudan at this crucial time in its history while expressing concern at recent hostilities in Darfur.

The security situation in the Sahel continues to deteriorate, with a growing threat in the region from organised crime and terrorist networks. These threats directly affect the local populations and states of the region, especially Mauritania, Mali and Niger. Short conclusions will note the Council's concern at this deterioration, reiterate the European Union's commitment to the region and look forward to the presentation of a comprehensive EU strategy on the Sahel.

Ministers will also consider conclusions on challenges to freedom of religion and belief following the recent horrific attacks against worshippers in the Middle East and elsewhere. Ireland is committed to the promotion and protection of freedom of religion or belief in all cases and will support the draft Council conclusions on intolerance, discrimination and violence on the basis of religion or belief.

Over dinner on Monday evening, High Representative Ashton will set out a work plan on the EU's strategic partners in accordance with the December European Council conclusions. I referred to this matter at a previous meeting. Ministers are expected to focus on Russia, an important partner for the European Union, especially in terms of trade, energy and our common neighbourhood. It is worth recalling that the EU is Russia's largest trading partner and its most important source of investment, while Russia is the European Union's third largest trading partner. Russia is also an important source of energy for EU member states. The discussion at the Council will chart our priorities for the period ahead, building on progress achieved at the EU-Russia summit last month.

On behalf of the Government I express my deepest sympathies to the people of Russia following the appalling bombing at Domodedovo airport on Monday. We were all startled at the images on television of people who were going peacefully about their business only to be attacked by some form of terrorism. The Irish people share a common revulsion at what took place in Russia and wish the Russian people well at this difficult time.

The High Representative is also expected to debrief Ministers on the recent meeting between the EU+3, that is, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, the USA, Russia and China, and Iran on the nuclear issue, which took place in Istanbul on 21 and 22 January. High Representative Ashton has publicly expressed her disappointment at the outcome of the meeting - we all share this disappointment - in particular at the unacceptable Iranian preconditions relating to UN sanctions and uranium enrichment. We join with her in hoping that Iran will come back to the table ready to address the valid concerns of the international community in respect of its programme. The appalling human rights situation in Iran is also likely to be touched on. It is important to send a message to Iran that we fully appreciate the concerns and the issues that face the people there but it is equally extraordinary that the Administration has put itself so offside with the international community.

The Chairman mentioned that I will address a committee of the French Senate during the week. I will make it clear that irrespective of the results in the upcoming election in this country, there is common resolve throughout the political community in Ireland that our friends and colleagues in France should understand the significance of our corporation tax rate and that we have no issue with it or wish to interfere should France decide on a competitive rate. That is a matter for the sovereign people of France. I will also make it clear that other propositions not only misunderstand and misinterpret the Irish position but are inimical to Ireland and Europe. I will make the point the Chairman made to me in respect of foreign direct investment, FDI. The Chairman's constituency is an exemplar in this regard. Foreign direct investment into Ireland is not only a win for Ireland but a win for Europe because if FDI is displaced from Europe, we will all be losers. I look forward to hearing the comments of the committee and if there are any questions I would be pleased to address them.

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for their readiness and availability to come before the committee at all times to give an indication of the agenda and to refer to it in subsequent meetings. I extend this appreciation to the Minister of State's colleague, the former Minister for Foreign Affairs, who has been elevated to a new position. We must all coexist in this competitive business.

I refer to another matter of importance, especially given the current economic climate throughout Europe. This matter has been discussed at the committee previously. There is an urgent need at every level, including diplomatic, political, parliamentary and ministerial levels, for a diplomatic initiative throughout Europe. We must meet each other and our respective representatives to understand each other better. We have come to expect megaphone diplomacy in recent times, whereby people speak at each other across the airwaves. This is not the way to attain a cohesive and constructive Europe, especially at present. There is nothing whatever to be gained by scoring points off each other by each pointing out the other's advantages and weaknesses. Every European country has advantages and weaknesses and the advantage of today may be the weakness of tomorrow. All of us may have to change our minds on certain things from time to time.

It is one thing for private opinions to be expressed by people, often injudiciously, over the airwaves. However, the Europe envisaged by the founding fathers is far superior to any other model put forward anywhere to date. Nothing has emerged to undermine that objective and vision in any way. We must act cohesively and in a supportive fashion. This means whoever is elected to the next Dáil and Seanad will find themselves with the responsibility of engaging with their parliamentary counterparts throughout Europe. There will be criticism for this because there are always those who maintain one should not do so. It is important that people engage at parliamentary level because at Government level one must engage at all times. The same engagement must take place at Government and ministerial level and it must take place in the wider community at academic, educational and diplomatic levels. Unless this engagement takes place there will be a fragmentation of the vision that existed for Europe, which would be to the benefit of no one.

I again thank the Minister of State. We have been impressed with France's attitude to Ireland during the recent past and I have no doubt this will continue. It is important that Commissioners Máire Geoghegan-Quinn and Barnier, who are ad idem on this issue, recognise that the Commission is not only supportive of Ireland but, as the Minister of State has indicated, is also supportive of the European project because the European project must survive. There will be several speakers, including Senators Feargal Quinn and Terry Leyden, Deputy Pat Breen and everyone else.

I thank the Minister of State for covering such a wide range of issues, especially with regard to the General Affairs Council. Among the areas the Minister of State did not touch on were the stability of the euro area, the threat to the euro and the need for confidence in the markets to avoid panic. There was a strong demand following the issue of bonds this month. I understand the rate of 2.6% was suitable. This should be one of the items highest on the agenda and it requires a great deal of attention to be given to it. Will the Minister of State offer a view on whether this will be discussed and whether the Hungarian Presidency regards it as serious?

I am pleased to note the Minister of State will concentrate on energy and innovation at this meeting. I am concerned that we have not recognised how dependent we are on Russia for our energy, not only in Ireland but in Europe as a whole. Some countries, such as France, do not have anything like the same dependency we have. This is partially because it has ensured investment in nuclear power over the years and, therefore, it does not have the same dependency on energy from Russia and the east. We decided many years ago not to include this as an option.

However, there is something we can do in this country and it surprises me that we have not done more. We could concentrate a good deal more on wind energy and the other sources of energy to which the Minister of State referred. I recall a visit from an Irishman who invests in wind energy but who has decided not to invest in Ireland anymore. He said that for three years no permission has been given for wind energy. When he went to Texas and wanted to open 30 or 40 wind generators in an area he was told to come back the following Wednesday and he would have permission. He was told it took seven days to get permission. This is something we have to work on.

I understand President Ben Ali of Tunisia, in having to leave Tunisia very quickly, sought refuge in France and was refused. I am not sure if that is correct but it would appear that, given its close relationship with North Africa, the European Union has a vested interest in the region. Regardless of whether the President deserves asylum, if he was seeking it he was turned down and had to go to Saudi Arabia as second choice. Europe should give the issue attention and make a decision at a European if not French level.

I welcome the Minister of State, his officials and members of the Diplomatic Corps, and thank him for his attention to the committee over the past number of years and his work on the Lisbon treaty, in particular on the second vote. I also thank the former Minister, Deputy Matin, for his outstanding work as Minister for Foreign Affairs and wish him well in his new role as leader of Fianna Fáil. I compliment the Minister of State, Deputy Power, on his work.

I welcome Pat the Cope Gallagher, MEP, and Liam Aylward, MEP, and am pleased they took time from their very busy schedules in Europe to be here. I thank the Chairman for his comprehensive briefing. He and all his staff have done great service over the past number of years. Our work with the Chairman led to the very successful outcome of the second vote on the Lisbon treaty.

The situation in Israel and Palestine is not on the agenda. It is a crucial issue. Will the formal or informal meetings of the European General Affairs and Foreign Affairs Council meetings discuss the aborted peace talks? The leaking of the highly sensitive documents on sensitive negotiations is a serious development and undermines Fatah and the president.

On the question of whether there is further role for Irish troops abroad in Sudan, have any developments taken place?

I apologise for being late but I had another commitment. This will be our last meeting with the Minister of State. I thank him for his commitment to the committee. He has always been available for us when required. I also pass on my best wishes to the former Minister, Deputy Martin, on his new role as leader of Fianna Fáil.

The civil unrest in Africa will dominate the agenda at the next meeting. The situation in Tunisia has started reactions in Egypt, where there is pressure on President Mubarak after 35 years in office. Does the Minister of State see the roller-coaster effect taking off in other volatile states in Africa? It is something about which we are very worried. We have seen what happened in the Ivory Coast as a result of the presidential elections and what has happened in other smaller states. How concerned is Europe about civil unrest in Africa? The emphasis has been on Africa and the resources it can offer to the world.

The situation in Russia is very serious and volatile. It is linked to the countries of the northern Caucasus. Europe is very concerned about the lax security arrangements at Moscow's main airport, given what happened recently. There is a lot of movement by European companies and multinationals in terms of investment in Russia, which Europe should be concerned about.

Perhaps the Minister of State could comment on the situation in Belarus and the unsatisfactory elections that took place there before Christmas. It is not a member of the Council of Europe, which comprises 47 countries. It lost its membership some time ago because of human rights issues, which was evident to those who witnessed the elections.

Given the extremely cold and harsh weather Europe experienced over the past number of months, energy security is an issue which concerns many countries, in particular when the price of oil is rising to between $95 and $100 per barrel. There are huge energy resources in Russia and the Caucasus countries. Gas pipes come from the Caspian Sea in Azerbaijan via the Caucasus countries to southern Europe. Russian oil travels through the Ukraine to central Europe. Such matters have been dealt with by the President of Ukraine, Mr. Yanukovych, when he did a deal for the Black Sea fleet.

This is something Russia can hold over Europe and needs to be dealt with. Ireland has a close relationship with Russia, particularly in regard to oil. There is a Russian terminal in Clare which supplies Shannon Airport and we appreciate it very much. We should concentrate on energy security and renewable energy, given what has happened over the winter.

I welcome Mr. Pat the Cope Gallagher, MEP, and Mr. Liam Aylward, MEP. They are always welcome and are fully entitled to attend and speak at all meetings.

Mr. Pat the Cope Gallagher, MEP

I thank the Chairman. We would like to attend all meetings but our first responsibility is to the European Parliament and its committees. That does not mean we are not in regular contact with this committee or know what is happening because we are fully briefed by the committee secretariat at all times.

The Minister of State, Deputy Roche, in his visits to Europe, takes the opportunity to meet MEPs from time to time when it fits into his schedule. I am very pleased, despite the imminent election, that he is putting his country before his constituency. He is addressing the French Senate next week and I am delighted that he is doing so. I am sure he will remind the French that taxation policy is not a matter for other countries to decide. We signed up to the Lisbon treaty and the matter is within the competence of the Irish authorities.

The Minister of State may be more diplomatic than I, but I will remind the French that while all the focus is on Ireland, in terms of limits of 3% or 60%, the eurozone and the Stability and Growth Pact, we are not the first country to exceed limits. It is prudent to meet targets within four years but larger countries in Europe were responsible for that and if they were as vigilant in the past as they are now we may not be in our current situation. I am sure the Minister of State will find more diplomatic language to express that view.

I am very grateful to the officials of the permanent representative in Brussels who are also in Strasbourg during the plenary sessions. They keep us fully briefed at all times. There is such a wide spectrum within the European Parliament, in terms of dealing with the committees and issues that arise from time to time. They are the conduit between ourselves and our Department.

I, too, want to be associated with the kind words expressed about our former Minister for Foreign Affairs. For obvious reasons I wish him well in the coming months. From a selfish point of view we are fortunate that he is in his current position rather than if he were still Minister for Foreign Affairs because we may have more time to do the necessary work on behalf of a particular party.

I want to follow up on the point raised by Senator Quinn. There are tremendous opportunities for us in the energy sector and while I do not expect that we could turn around an application in a week, we should be able to do it within a year but there are so many Departments involved. At one time foreshore licences were the responsibility of the Department of the Marine but they come under the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

I suggest that the incoming Minister for energy or another Minister would have responsibility for this area because there is tremendous potential, particularly to create jobs. We do not have to produce enough energy just to meet our own needs. We can meet the needs of various countries throughout Europe. When it comes to wind energy, there are parts of this country which are ideal. The highest wind velocity in Europe is in the north west, and we are taking advantage of that, but those in the private sector believe it is easier to walk away than to invest in that area. While we have to abide by the regulations and give people an opportunity to express their views through other fora, we should be able to turn this around.

Yesterday morning, before Liam Aylward, MEP, and I left Europe to return here, we met with a representative of those who are investing billions of euro in offshore renewable energy. The Minister of State, Deputy Roche, would be very familiar with one facility off his own coast and the other one, Oriel. There are a number of others throughout the country and they can invest billions of euro, create jobs and provide energy and energy security not just for our own country but for our neighbour and other parts of Europe. That took some time. I know because I was in the Department of the Marine when we signed off on the foreshore licences at the time.

We must develop our own natural resources, and that is a great one. We are experiencing difficult economic times currently but I am heartened when I meet those in the private sector who, incidentally, are the engine of growth in any country. Governments can only create the economic atmosphere but these are the people who can invest and create jobs.

I hope we will have the same co-operation from the incoming Minister for European affairs, whoever he or she might be, as we have had from the Minister of State, Deputy Roche. Needless to say, the permanent Government will continue to provide us with that first-class service. I do not know if it could be done in a more structured way but I could not speak highly enough of the people in Brussels, who also represent the Department in Strasbourg. They are the Minister's face, so to speak, in Brussels and Strasbourg.

I thank the Chairman for his kindness and courtesy at all times and wish him well. I am sure the leader of his party would not take any interest in what I might say but I am sure his experience over the years will not go unnoticed when decisions are being taken post-election.

I will arrange for an early meeting between Mr. Gallagher and my party leader.

First, I ask the Minister to continue to support a strong stabilisation mechanism for the euro currency. There is an anomaly whereby huge amounts of funds, for instance, €300 billion, can be transferred to a small economy such as Ireland's within a short period of time. There must be more balance in the way funds can transfer.

Second, I ask for continued support from the Minister for the counter-terrorism measures that will be needed across Europe, including Russia. Those continuing supports should include conflict resolution in which I understand the EU has a specialisation.

In the area of energy, Ireland is potentially the Saudi Arabia of green energy but we should not forget that we have a huge offshore area of potential reserves of oil extending 200 miles into the sea. Those potential reserves are virtually untapped. Approximately 117 wells have been drilled and in addition we have the small, ten million barrel Helvick oil field, Ballycotton, Seven Heads, and the Corrib gas field. We have had good success with limited drilling compared to the North Sea where, since the first drilling in the Dogger Bank in the 1960s, 4,000 wells have been drilled. The oil and the gas are there but we need support in that regard. Could the Minister imagine the boost it would give to Ireland when the first commercial oil is brought on shore? These are areas we should be supporting in Europe but specifically in terms of offshore oil and gas, we should be looking for support from Europe.

That is true. There is huge potential in regard to both natural and traditional energy resources. Their exploration is vitally important to both the Irish and the European economies. Some concern has been expressed about delays in delivering some of the resources. Concern has been expressed also about the perceived benefit to the country arising from exploration that has already taken place. Some means must be found to ensure, and to reassure the public, that everything that can and should be done is done in a fair and equitable fashion so as to get the support of the public because the support of the public will always be required in such circumstances. Regarding wind energy and other resources, that is an area that can grow dramatically and will be of huge benefit.

My final point is on oil prices. Unfortunately, when interest rates are low there is a tendency in the markets to treat commodities the way a bank would be treated previously when interest rates were high. That does not necessarily mean they have run out of oil or that the gas resources have become depleted. It is a market thing. As a former spokesman in that area, I believe a great deal of thought must be given to the way the markets flow - no pun intended - in terms of cost to the consumer. The fluctuation in prices is a huge factor in economic development and, ultimately, employment and European economic recovery. I call the Minister to reply.

I will deal with the issues in the order in which they arose. The economic governance package is one of the primary issues. It will be dealt with in the Council in March. If members recall, the arrangements are that the treaty change will come back in March for discussion and finalisation at the European Council meeting. The issue was strongly discussed at the last European Council meeting and under seven headings a coherent framework for action has been set out. First, there is the question of implementing the existing programmes. There is a programme in place to implement both the Greek programme and the arrangements agreed with Ireland. Those arrangements have to be concluded, and we are in the process of concluding our part of those arrangements in the Finance Bill which is passing through the Lower House and will be dealt with shortly in the Seanad. That is our part of ensuring that, in terms of making stability a reality for this country, we tie down the funds and have certainty for the next four years.

The second challenge the Council has set is keeping up fiscal responsibility. It is absolutely critical not just for this State but for every member state that fiscal targets for 2010, 2011 and beyond be complied with and that excessive deficits be avoided. Progressing the growth enhancing structural reforms is another priority which the European Council has set itself. Also, the strengthening of the Stability and Growth Pact, which is the primary focus of Senator Quinn's question, will be a big issue in the March European Council.

There is also the issue of ensuring the availability of adequate financial support through the security mechanism pending the entry into force of a permanent mechanism. It is a fact that there is a fundamental weakness in the euro project in that it was not anticipated, as a number of Senators have mentioned, that the type of crisis that did occur would occur. Europe is a fairly asymmetric group of nations and it was inevitable that there would be difficulties. Nobody could have foreseen, as Pat the Cope Gallagher, MEP, said, that the first breach of the arrangements would be by two of the larger countries. We all fully understand what happened in the case of Germany. There was a cost following unification, which we were all delighted to support, and there were also issues in France.

Further strengthening of the financial system will be critical, particularly the regulatory system. There can be no doubt that, regardless of what individual domestic circumstances contributed to the crash in the financial markets, the idea that the markets could continue to operate with light touch regulation, leaving it to the goodwill and trust of some people, has been betrayed and certainly proven to be incorrect. The appropriate regulatory mechanism will have to be part of the long-term package. I believe those mechanisms will, in the long term, provide a completely different framework for banking. A framework which deals with retail banking, and I believe the Senator has expressed the same views, will have to provide strong guarantees but the framework will allow other forms of banking to take the risks of the marketplace and, if necessary, to go to the wall. The crisis in this country and in Europe as a whole arose from the fact that two very diverse types of activities were taking place in the banking sector. That leads to another issue that must be tackled, appropriate stress testing of the banking system within the European Union. There is no doubt that there is little enough credibility in that regard. Finally, there is the issue of support mechanisms taken on by the Central Bank.

These will all form part of the background to the discussions which will take place at the European Council meeting. Senators mentioned what the mechanism would be like and what will happen. This obviously has consequences for us from the point of view of a constitutional referendum, for example. We have already seen drafts of the mechanism that will come forward. The mechanism will be capable of being dealt with under the Lisbon treaty arrangements and will be such that it does not involve transference of competence, which would require a referendum in this country.

Senators Quinn and Hanafin, the Chairman and Pat the Cope Gallagher, MEP, raised the second issue, energy, relating to next week's meeting. Energy and energy security must be one of the absolute priorities. The points made in a number of contributions to this meeting must be taken on board. Ireland must get real. As Senator Hanafin said, we have the potential to be the location for green energy. We have amazing and sustained wind capacity and furthermore in the west we have amazing and sustained wave and tidal capacity. We must decide as a nation on where the balance lies between people's rights to object and the rights of general society to be secure.

When I was Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government I introduced what I believed was a reasonable legislative measure to deal with strategic infrastructure. I believe a wind energy proposal would fall within the remit of that legislation. There must be a trade-off between the rights of an individual to make objections, which we all respect because ours is a democratic society, and the betterment of society as a whole. The type of anecdote which Senator Quinn related was what I had in mind when I was drafting the strategic infrastructure legislation. That legislation has not been well used. The fact that there have not been permits and it is so difficult to get them bothers me intensely because I took the time, and the hits, to put legislation on the Statute Book but it has not been properly exploited. I know from my constituency that there is obviously a trade-off between scenic impact and onshore turbines or scenic impact and offshore turbines, but there is something other than an individual's interpretation of the impact. There is also the importance to society.

I believe we must get real about this. The incoming Dáil will have to address it. There must a better balance between the public good and the rights of individuals. That is not to say we should trespass on the rights of individuals, but one can see the issue. I am amazed. I travelled between two towns in Germany and I remarked to the driver of the car on the intensive amount of wind turbines in the area. It was a very scenic area. I asked if there were objections to it. He said there were from time to time but that most people found it comforting that the country had another energy source. He went on to point out that he was one of the people in Germany who are anxious to ensure the country does not become dependent on nuclear power.

We made a decision on nuclear power, a decision I support. However, the reason France has security is that it has a clean, well run industry. I am not a fan of nuclear power and never will be due to the long-term consequences, but we must have this debate. We cannot talk in isolation about energy security and what Europe is going to do about energy; we must become active in it. A west-east interconnector, and interconnection going both ways, would be critical. The creation of a network in Europe is also critical. The development of wind, wave and tidal energies in Ireland will only become an economic reality when we can plug into that network. I agree with the comments made by a number of Senators in that regard.

Senator Quinn also referred to the situation in Tunisia. He is correct that former President Ben Ali initially sought refuge in France and when that was not forthcoming he moved to Saudi Arabia. I have a strong personal view about despots moving themselves, their families, their entourages and, more important, the assets belonging to their impoverished nations into Europe. There is something morally repugnant about it, particularly the latter. European countries that sometimes take the high moral ground on other issues should be very careful in that regard.

I have dealt with the mechanism, probably for too long, and with the energy issues. The Middle East was mentioned by Senator Leyden. I agree with him that the leaks were damaging. Here is another issue of balance. In this case there are two sets of people who are involved in a struggle. The Palestinians are trying to create a better future for their people and they see the division through one set of eyes. On the Israeli side, people who have suffered so much and want security for their people see it from a different side. Leaks might be great for headlines or for people who must write articles and so forth. They might serve a purpose in that regard but this has certainly been damaging. It has undermined a genuine effort to create peace. We are aware on this island that if everything were to have been divulged in the effort to create peace in the Six Counties and throughout the island and if there could not have been confidential discussions, it would not have been possible for people to move back from traditional positions and move forward from there. There was a full discussion on the Middle East last month. Obviously, it is continually at the back of people's minds but it is not on the agenda every month.

The aftermath of the election in Belarus represents a bad step backwards. The High Representative has met representatives of the authorities and of civil society in Belarus. She met them on 12 January in Brussels and underlined our solidarity with the people of Belarus. However, she also indicated her desire that democracy be allowed to flourish in that country, which has such a chequered history. She insisted on the immediate release of those who were detained on political grounds. We would all support her efforts in this regard.

Senator Leyden also referred to the issue of troops in Sudan. The European Union is committed to supporting Sudan in the aftermath of the recent referendum. The latter will produce its own difficulties. The United Nations is leading the security effort in the area and has approximately 9,500 troops on the ground in Darfur. There is a general acceptance that this is an inadequate number. There is no proposal for EU military involvement in Sudan. As a result, the question of an Irish contribution there does not arise.

Deputy Breen referred to Egypt. He is correct that the spillover of events in Tunisia into Egypt in recent days has been quite striking. This is a complex matter. Food prices, extensive youth unemployment and the widening gap between the rich and poor all contributed to the upheaval in Tunisia and I suspect that the same issues have triggered the difficulties which have arisen in Egypt. I was fortunate recently to meet, in the context of the ELDR, one of the leaders of the democracy movement in Egypt. He forecast that a blowout would occur. There is, as Deputy Breen indicated, a clear risk of contagion across north Africa.

Pat the Cope Gallagher, MEP, referred to the French Senate. It is important to remember that France has always been Ireland's inspiration. It was certainly the inspiration behind the republicanism that we all proclaim exists in this country. France was also an inspiration to us in the context of our difficulties in other times. It has always been our great friend. We can differ on occasion with friends without the necessity to harangue each other. I will strongly represent the views expressed by members of the committee and all of the parties in the Dáil when I have the honour of addressing the relevant committee of the French Senate. I will also be meeting a committee of the Assemblée Nationale, so I will pass on members' regards.

I thank the Minister of State. We will suspend proceedings for a moment to allow him to withdraw. I wish everyone well in the period ahead. Regardless of who sits in these chairs in the coming years, we all hope that good relationships which will be of benefit to this country will be forged.

It was remiss of me not to state that it has been a privilege and a pleasure to work with the committee and, in particular, with the Chairman. I fully and wholeheartedly endorse the comments made by Pat The Cope Gallagher, MEP. I wish the Chairman well in the election and in its aftermath. Talent and experience such as those which he possesses should not be overlooked.

I thank the Minister of State and wish him likewise. I wish to inform members that the remainder of the meeting will be in public session and we may be discussing matters of some import. I take this opportunity to thank our friends from the media and the diplomatic corps for their regular attendance at our meetings and their interest in our proceedings. I also thank the various ambassadors, their first and second secretaries and all who have been in attendance at our meetings. We hope that these people will continue to attend meetings of this committee.

Sitting suspended at 12.34 p.m. and resumed at 12.35 p.m.
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