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Joint Committee on European Union Affairs díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Apr 2015

European Semester - Draft National Reform Programme 2015: Discussion (Resumed)

Due to other commitments we need to conclude today's proceedings at 3 p.m. Therefore I ask members to limit their questions to two and half minutes, if possible. I remind everybody to turn off their mobile telephones if they have not already done so. Putting them on silent mode does not help as they will still interfere with the broadcasting equipment. Apologies have been received from Deputy Seán Kyne and Senator Aideen Hayden.

Today we continue our discussion on the 2015 national reform programme. We are joined by Professor Alan Barrett and Dr. Edgar Morgenroth from the ESRI who will assist the committee in its analysis of the reform programme.

As members will be aware, the Oireachtas consults in advance of its submission to the European Commission under the European semester process. Last week we heard from the Minister of State with special responsibility for European Affairs, Deputy Dara Murphy, who outlined the extensive programme to the committee. We also heard from four councillors who are on the Committee of the Regions representing the various councillors from across Ireland. We heard their views on the programmes, specifically from a regional perspective. Today, to assist the committee in analysing the programme, we are pleased to welcome the two representatives from the ESRI.

Before we begin, I remind members of the longstanding parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against a person or an entity either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, the witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are about to give to the committee. If they are directed to cease giving evidence on a particular subject and they continue to do so, they are only entitled thereafter to qualified privilege in respect of the evidence they give. They are directed that only evidence concerned with today's proceedings is to be given to the committee and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against an entity or a person either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Professor Barrett will commence with an opening statement.

Professor Alan Barrett

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to appear before the committee today and for the opportunity to discuss the national reform programme. I am joined by my colleague, Dr. Edgar Morgenroth. Between the two of us our research interests cover topics such as macroeconomics, labour, demographics, infrastructure and regional development so we hope we will be able to answer a wide range of questions which the national reform programme, NRP, might prompt. However, as the NRP is very broad in its scope, it is also likely that there will be questions which we are not able to answer so let me apologise for this in advance.

As part of these opening remarks, I would also like to say that the ESRI sees engagements such as this as very much part of our mission. We aim to contribute to the evidence base that underpins policy and also to communicate that evidence directly to those involved in policy-making. For these reasons, the committee's invitation is very much appreciated from an institute perspective.

The national reform programme forms part of the EU semester. As members of the committee will be aware, Ireland’s emergence from the bailout meant that we became full participants in the EU semester and so the national reform programme now includes responses to the country-specific recommendations that are issued by the European Commission under the economic governance arrangements. The NRP also includes discussions of progress in respect of the Europe 2020 targets and the use of European investment and Structural Funds.

Before discussing specifics issues, it is worth reflecting for a moment on the value of a process through which Ireland must discuss policy reforms with the European Commission and where there is an interaction in the form of country-specific recommendations and responses. An exercise such as this can add to the overall quality of policy formation and represents another route through which the European Union can have a positive impact on Ireland’s economic outcomes. Thinking back to the 1990s, the value of EU funding under regional and structural funds was normally thought of in terms of the direct spending and the construction of roads and other forms of infrastructure. Less attention is typically given to the evaluation culture which the EU imposed whereby projects had to be evaluated before being funded, at the mid-point of the funding cycle and on completion. It is not clear that Ireland would have imposed such rigorous processes on itself.

Fast-forwarding to 2015, the EU semester has the potential to force policy-makers in Ireland to think about key policy challenges in a focused way and to ensure that policy is targeted at those challenges. As with many aspects of life, an outside perspective, in this case from the European Commission, can be valuable both in terms of defining challenges and in proposing solutions. While the process can be of value, the value can be diluted if the approach taken by policy-makers is merely to generate a sense of action in the areas of concern by listing programmes without any reference to the actual or likely impact of those programmes. Putting this another way, a document such as the NRP can look impressive in terms of the range of measures that are presented but the more challenging question always relates to impact.

Turning to some of the policy issues, I will select just a few by way of illustrating some themes. It is difficult for us to predict which of the many areas covered by the NRP are of particular interest to the members so Dr. Morgenroth and I look forward to discussing specific interests and concerns in response to your questions. The first country-specific recommendation discussed in the NRP relates to budgetary matters. I understand that these matters are covered more intensively by the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform but it would be difficult for two economists to remain completely silent. In that context, I would note that while the new fiscal-budgetary framework can be criticised, the principles of fiscal prudence which underpin the framework are laudable. Much of the country-specific recommendations on this point can be viewed as urging the Government to abide by the framework. This is important, especially as an election looms.

The third country-specific recommendation relates to the labour market and activation and echoes calls that will be familiar to people who have followed this debate over the years. Going back to the pre-crisis era, Ireland’s activation policies were criticised along two broad lines. First, and this was argued by the OECD in particular, the connection between benefit payments and activation measures was too loose, especially in operational terms. The Department of Social Protection paid the benefits and FÁS organised training and employment services. The creation of the Intreo network of offices is a positive move in this direction and methods of engagement with clients have improved too. Following policy advice and technical inputs from the ESRI, there is an increasing use of statistical profiling to direct job seekers earlier to interventions that are more likely to meet their needs. The second broad strand of criticism of activation services related to the quality of the training programmes being offered. Much ESRI research has shown that training programmes for the unemployed were most effective when they were clearly oriented to labour market demands. SOLAS, the successor to FÁS, is aware of this and is striving to improve its offering. However, ongoing evaluation will be needed to assess whether their new orientation is working.

The fourth country-specific recommendation relates in part to a perceived low-job intensity of households in Ireland and it is useful to spend a few moments on this. The ESRI conducted an analysis a number of years ago which appeared to show a high level of jobless households when compared to other EU countries. The analysis was based on data from the European Union survey on income and living conditions which is collected by the CSO in Ireland. The research finding led to much discussion and concern, as evidenced in part by the inclusion of the issue in the country-specific recommendations. When the analysis was repeated using data from the Quarterly National Household Survey, a different picture emerged and Ireland no longer seemed to be such an outlier. This is commented upon in the NRP with a reference to further ESRI work on the topic.

The first lesson to be drawn from this is the need to understand why two data sets collected by the CSO can yield different answers. This is already occurring. The second lesson is the need to use alternative data sources to explore issues, especially when surprising results emerge. Before leaving the issues of jobless households, I would like to draw attention to one issue which is discussed in that section of the NRP. There is a reference to research by our colleague, Tim Callan, and others which shows that there is generally an incentive for job seekers to take up work when examining social welfare replacement rates. This is an important finding which we might return to in discussion.

I have not touched on all the country-specific recommendations and responses to them as time and a lack of expertise work against me. However, before concluding these opening remarks, I would like to raise a number of issues with respect to the material in the NRP on progress towards the Europe 2020 targets. With respect to employment, there is clearly good progress being made but I would raise two concerns. First, as the long-term unemployed remain in that situation for longer, their prospects of returning to employment diminish. Even in the context of growing employment, the long-term unemployed will have to compete with school leavers, returning emigrants and immigrants. For this reason, we need to be sure that the activation services are working even for those who are difficult to place. Second, while the employment target is stated in terms of the group aged 15 to 64, a big labour market challenge in the context of population aging is to increase employment among those over the age of 65.

On education, I was struck by a sentence on page 51 where it says, "there is clear evidence that the DEIS programme is having a positive effect on tackling educational disadvantage". While the statement is not untrue, there is a danger that it gives an overly straightforward assessment. A research review by our colleague, Emer Smyth, and others gave a much more nuanced assessment of the programme. I will take the following quote for illustrative purposes:

[T]hese National Assessment data indicate an improvement for all primary (DEIS and non-DEIS) schools, most likely reflecting the impact of the literacy and numeracy strategy. Using these data as a reference point for DEIS schools, [and this is the important part of the quote], the achievement gap between urban DEIS and non-DEIS schools does not show any marked improvement over time.

My broad point here refers back to my earlier remarks. It is important that the impacts of policies are carefully communicated in order that improvements can be made.

As a final comment it is important to mention three things that are generally absent from the national reform programme. The first is housing, the second is population ageing and the third is regional development. Constrained housing supply represents a serious challenge and a threat in terms of competitiveness. Population ageing is a major looming issue and ideally all policy documents of the nature of the NRP should reflect this. Finally, the perspective of the national reform programme is of course national. However, we know that development differs regionally and we might explore this through questions from committee members. Again, I thank the committee members for the invitation to make a presentation and we look forward to your questions.

Thank you, Professor Barrett, for those comments. I will start off with some questions. You seem to be of the view that the European semester and the Brussels involvement in our budgetary process are welcome developments. Have you considered how national parliaments could be better involved in the process? For us, as national parliamentarians, these are relatively new procedures. Each year we are augmenting what we have done in the past and we are trying to get to the stage where we can add value to the overall process. Have you any views on what we could be doing differently or how you would like to see national parliaments adapt to deal with the semester process?

My other questions relate to your last comment. These questions have been aired at this committee in the past. You mentioned that there is little relating to regional development. We had representatives from the Committee of the Regions before the committee last week. They were concerned about regional development, the fact that for many there is an appearance that the economic recovery under way is rather Dublin focused and that the economy is growing and in many ways starting to boom here but that this is not felt as we move away from the Dublin region. Do you have any suggestions for what could be done to address that?

Housing was an area where you suggested services were lacking. We are all aware of the crisis in housing and the projected increase in the number of required dwellings in the coming ten or 12 years. This applies to the public and private spheres. The Government is doing a good deal of work in respect of housing. What do you think could be done? Have you any plans or suggestions in respect of what could be included in those plans? Those are my questions. Deputy Dooley and Senator Burke are keen to get involved as well. Deputy Dooley is first.

I thank Professor Barrett for his presentation. He talked about the improvements in labour activation and the relationship that now exists between the training arm, as it were, and the Department of Social Protection. We all accept that there were issues in this area, in particular as the economic crisis developed and as a result more people were out of work. Does Professor Barrett see any issue with a skills gap in our economy? The general narrative during the better years was all about education. There were references to a term I dislike, going up the value chain. We were told we lived in a knowledge-based economy. The narrative was almost trying to retrofit the knowledge economy around every individual as a solution to their need for work.

Have we lost a focus on the apprenticeship model as a way of dealing with what is referred to in other jurisdictions as blue-collar workers? Again, that is not a term I am keen on. Have we failed to address the manual or trades sector in terms of our activation measures to ensure there will be quality tradespeople to meet the demands and needs of a recovering economy? Will Professor Barrett address the issue to which I am broadly referring?

Following what the Chairman said, I imagine we all accept that there is a level of economic growth along the east coast and perhaps some other towns or in isolated areas. However, in general we are looking at a two-tier if not a three-tier economy. Can Professor Barrett comment on how that might be addressed in the coming months?

I thank Professor Barrett for his presentation and for the work in preparing for this presentation. He touched on DEIS schools, an area in which I have a particular interest. Is Professor Barrett saying that we have not seen the kind of improvement in education in the DEIS schools that we sought to achieve? It is a little unclear from what he said. I work in an area where there are DEIS schools. When the scheme was first introduced in 1996 it was called Breaking the Cycle. Does Professor Barrett believe changes are required to help areas where there is a high level of disadvantage to try to further improve what is happening?

My second question follows from Deputy Dooley's question about the shortage of people with trades. I was speaking to someone last night who has got a new job in Ireland. Even though he is living in Ireland he is getting €1,700 to relocate. On the basis of Professor Barrett's evidence and research on the shortage of people with various skills or trades, whether carpentry, welding or people that we need for the building trade or even for trades generally, does Professor Barrett believe there is anything to be gained by offering some incentives? These could be by way of tax relief or a location allowance for people to come back from abroad. Does Professor Barrett believe there is a need to do that now since we have such a shortage of skills?

My third question relates to housing. I am unsure if we have seen much research on whether we are getting value for money on the allocation to local authorities. Numerous voluntary social housing groups are now very effective in this sector in some areas of the United Kingdom. Does Professor Barrett believe more could be achieved in the area of housing expenditure by comparison with what is being achieved at the moment? Have we done any research on that?

Housing is going to be a big issue. There are many people now between 25 and 40 years of age who have not got on the property ladder and who are unlikely to get on it. Part of the problem is that many of the jobs being offered are for short periods and that has its own consequences. Should we now consider European styles of housing? For example, in Germany a tenant can get a letting agreement for 20 years with five-year rent reviews. We apply that here in the commercial sector. In other words, rent is fixed for five years and the tenant is totally responsible for the furnishing of the property. We do not seem to have any kind of mechanism like that in this country. This is relevant especially because jobs are no longer for life. If a person gets a job that lasts ten years he is doing rather well in this day and age. There will be a constant movement of people. Therefore, should we now look at other housing options, rather than a lease for 12 months where the rent is reviewed after 12 months?

We seem to have a serious problem. We have accepted that rent is fixed for five years in the commercial sector. We have accepted the changes in upward-only rent. What are the views of Professor Barrett in light of his experience and the research he has carried out?

Professor Alan Barrett

Can I begin by answering your first question, Chairman? Then I can take some of the other questions and hand over to Dr. Morgenroth at that stage.

That sounds good.

Professor Alan Barrett

Your first question was on the role of parliamentarians in this process. What I am going to say is borderline heresy for a researcher, but you will understand what I mean when I develop the theme. Let us consider many of the issues that are covered in the national reform programme.

It covers things like activation measures relating to DEIS schools, SME financing, legal services and a range of other issues. When researchers are tackling these issues and examining them, we normally have to wait for data to come on board and then we intensively investigate the data. If the issue is SME financing or something like that, we spend quite a while agonising over it before we come up with a recommendation. That can be slow.

One noticeable aspect of the semester programme is that policy issues come up rapidly and they have to be thought about rapidly. I am struck when I am in Leinster House and around politicians generally that, through clinics and so on, Members are more aware of the immediate problems that arise, much more so than researchers. A couple of years ago, we were in here and SME financing was one of the big issues. When talking to people, it was all about this notion that no money was available for businesses and they were choking. This was being reported to us because people such as Oireachtas Members were hearing this continually. It is the same with activation policies. Researchers have an overview of this but Members hear the on-the-ground stories. In terms of processes like this, parliamentarians are normally good at highlighting the immediate issues and making sure they are on the agenda as quickly as possible. There is a value in Parliament being involved in terms of proposing the issue that need to be looked at.

With regard to the committee's role in scrutinising policy and the broad themes we try to plug into, it is one thing to simply list all the activities in an area but members have a sense from constituents whether something is working or not. I am reluctant to pick areas within the national reform programme and use them as examples about which I am a little worried but I will take the example of child care. If one reads what the programme says about child care, one would come away with the impression that there is a hive of activity and funding and it all looks good and positive but we all know that child care is the biggest expense hitting many families. This is a perspective because parliamentarians listen to people talking about this all the time. I am nervous because I have singled out an issue but one has to make such points. That relates to the issue of parliamentary engagement.

Deputy Dooley asked about skills gaps in the context of the labour market issues. There is a theme in ESRI research focusing on specific occupations or specific approaches. The dominant issue that has always come out of our research in this area is the need for training programmes to be closely aligned with labour market needs at a point in time. For many years, FÁS was criticised and told its programmes were not doing anything and there was a bad press around them but a number of colleagues looked at a large number of FÁS projects and it was clear that while they were not having the desired effect, there was a group of FÁS programmes that were effective at getting people back to work. The crucial distinction between the successful and unsuccessful programmes was the notion of orientation to the labour market. If people were brought to the point where they were being trained in a need, there would be success. This is demanding in a data sense because current and lively data is needed to know where are the job openings and skills gaps and so on. SOLAS is getting better at this but, collectively, this has to be part of the effort. I would not restrict it and say it has to be apprenticeships or whatever else. It is all about getting detailed information and being able to react as quickly as possible. One of the great difficulties with a huge organisation such as FÁS is it is like trying to turn a big ship. Large bureaucracies are typically not terribly flexible and, therefore, the trick in designing activation programmes is to be able to move regularly to offer the programmes and training in areas that are hot at that particular time. It is demanding but that is what we have to do, otherwise people will be offered training in areas that will not be of any use to them in the long term.

Senator Burke raised the issue of DEIS schools but I will be careful because I would not claim to be an expert on this. The point I was making is if he reads the material in the national reform programme again, there is a clear statement that the DEIS programme is working. I refer to research led by Professor Emer Smyth, which she conducted with a number of colleagues and which is published on the ESRI website. Their job was to review the research in this area to work out whether DEIS schools are having an effect. One set of studies showed an increase in pupil outcomes in such schools over a period. One could say, "Brilliant, the programmes is working". However, another study came along and asked a slightly different question. Rather than examining what happened within DEIS schools, they compared them to non-DEIS schools and found that things were improving in non-DEIS schools. The idea behind the quote I read into the record was there was no evidence of a catch-up between both categories of school. Every school was doing better and the conclusion of the authors of the report was programmes on numeracy and literacy were having an effect for everybody and, therefore, the effort to close educational disadvantage was not as successful as a more simple reading might suggest. I do not want to sit here and say DEIS is working or not working. All I want to do in the context of the document we are discussing is point out that sometimes an overly simplistic view or evaluation of a programme can lead to a complacency that something is working where it may not be.

The DEIS issue is interesting. I attended a presentation made by both national and secondary schools recently, which highlighted truancy and non-completion in areas with a particular level of disadvantage. Much of their work goes into keeping children in a school environment, which will never show up in the ESRI's statistics. It might throw the organisation's statistics off if the children stay in school because that would bring down the averages. Sometimes good work that is done to help individuals such as this is not reflected appropriately in the statistical model researchers might run.

Professor Alan Barrett

The Deputy is right. The report I refer to makes a lot of points but retention is one issue where there has been success. That has to be noted and we are clear about that.

Another finding that came out of that report deals with an area where there had been success in DEIS schools. They had been given money to do something and their use of it was monitored. The big effect resulted from the monitoring rather than from the money. I know nothing about school management or anything like that but there is that sense that very often the biggest bang for one's buck is generated by managing things better and seeing that people respond rather than letting them off. That is another big issue.

I work in the area of DEIS schools and if they did not have a lower pupil-teacher ratio, they would not have kept pace with schools outside the DEIS area. That is the advantage of DEIS, which I have witnessed. I agree there is one other problem. Programmes have been introduced in Dublin and they will commence in Cork shortly, which will involve parents at an early stage. That is slightly different from what the DEIS programme does. Involving the parents at an early stage will be a better mechanism to achieve results as they will also go through an educational process. Without the changes that were made through DEIS, schools in the disadvantaged areas would not kept up at all with schools outside the DEIS area.

Professor Alan Barrett

That is true but to the extent that the programme is about eliminating gaps between outcomes across schools, one would like to see more being done. It is still worth asking the question about what else has to be done to make sure that rather than keeping everything from deteriorating, there is a genuine convergence in outcomes across these schools.

I am eager to get on to the question about the potential for tax relief for returning migrants.

Professor Alan Barrett

My quick response to this would be that there is no need to do anything. The detailed response runs along the following lines. We know from research conducted by the ESRI that returning migrants tend to earn more than people who never left the country in the first place. Migrants have the capacity to go and, to the extent that people go abroad and do well, they are ultimately going to be drawn back to Ireland for a whole host of reasons. There is no reason to be using taxpayers' money to bring them back in that very direct way. In terms of the things that might put people off, Dr. Morgenroth will talk more about housing in a moment. The housing situation in Ireland is much more likely to be a block to getting people back than anything else. We do not necessarily want a policy to spend money targeting a particular group. We should look at what might ultimately discourage them and make it extremely difficult for them to come back, namely, the availability and cost of housing.

I hope I have answered most questions. Dr. Morgenroth might like to take over for a few minutes.

Dr. Edgar Morgenroth

I will deal with the regional development and housing questions.

We might then let Deputy Durkan come in with some questions

Dr. Edgar Morgenroth

As it happens, both regional development and housing are areas in which I have been conducting research for some time. I will try to deal with them separately, although they are linked. The regional development pattern we are currently seeing, where Dublin, in particular, and also Galway and Cork appear to be growing quite strongly while other parts of the country are not growing or growing much more slowly, is also reflected in the housing market. There are areas where there is still a huge over-supply of housing following the boom, for example, in some parts in the midlands or the Border region. In parts of Country Leitrim, it was something in the order of 60% and it will take a very long time to reduce that. On the other hand, in Dublin we now have an acute housing shortage which is spilling over into the surrounding counties. The two issues of regional development and housing are clearly linked.

When it comes to regional development, research I published a few months ago showed that we have had these patterns for a very long time rather than there being a two-speed or a three-speed recovery. Dublin and the south west, in particular, have been growing much faster than the rest of the country. More recently the west, basically Galway, has also grown much faster. The other parts of the country have all been growing at a relatively similar but much slower speed. This is nothing new in terms of the recovery. We have seen it over 15 years in our data as this type of pattern is very ingrained. That raises a question about policy. Why is this happening and what can we do about it?

When we look at the evidence we find that most of the growth is urban-based. The bigger the urban area, the more growth we get. That is seen not just in Ireland but in most developed countries. It was argued at one point in the US that cities were no longer important but they have changed their minds on that. The evidence is very clear that cities are making a big comeback, which I think is here to stay. On the face of it, that leaves relatively poor prospects for rural areas. There are issues about under-utilisation of resources, people losing services etc., which are clearly not very popular and are also very costly for the economy as a whole.

Where do we go from here in terms of policy? The issue is linking rural areas to their nearest cities, and this is something we can do a lot better. We have had very separate development up to now. If the rural areas were linked at all it was more in terms of commuting, much less in terms of enterprise development. With the Dublin area, in particular, growing very fast, costs are rising and that is seen on the property side not just in housing but also in commercial property. As that creates an incentive for some businesses to move out, there should be a natural spillover from the larger urban centres into the areas around them. We have not had a policy to deal with that and encourage it. We have provided transport for people but have not thought very much about the freight side, for example. We have not tried to engage with some of the major employers that might possibly move out. I have done some work on county councils that shows that, once we do that, we can achieve quite a lot. Often there are very simple needs to be met.

To achieve this, we would need a successor to the national spatial strategy. The name for it at the moment is the national planning framework. Once we have that we need to also roll it out to regional strategies, which are mentioned in the reform programme, and down to local authority level. We are currently producing local authority plans without having a national planning framework or a spatial strategy, which is less than optimal. This brings me to the housing side, where there is also a planning issue. As I mentioned earlier, my analysis shows there are very different things going on around the country. In Dublin and the counties around it - Meath, Kildare, Wicklow and Louth - there would seem to be a housing shortage. Cork and Galway are also getting there, whereas counties like Leitrim, for example, have very little movement and very substantial vacancy rates.

Dr. Morgenroth's organisation published a report on housing in March 2014, suggesting there would be a need for something like 30,000 units a year between now and 2030 because of population growth and the size of residences coming down. Those figures were kind of astounding to me at the time. Does Dr. Morgenroth still go with those figures and do they fit into his local area plans?

Dr. Edgar Morgenroth

Last year's report in March looked at 20,000 to 25,000, just on demographics. It did not take the existing stock of vacant dwellings or the regional dimension into account. In the summer I did some further work, which has also been published, predicting around 18,000 because of the very significant vacant stock in some areas. However, looking at local authority level, in Dublin and the surrounding counties there was basically no vacant stock left. That is exactly what we are seeing reflected in the prices. Once there is no excess supply and demand is increasing, we know the prices will rise. The counties where prices are rising fastest are exactly those I identified at that point. A number of other studies have looked at the spatial detail and all have come up with very similar numbers - something like 20,000 units but in particular areas. That is also where we have the largest problems. If we look at completions in Dublin, for example, they are disproportionately low.

Part of that has to do with the composition that one might be able to build in Dublin. One would typically build more multi-unit developments, whereas in some of the more rural counties one-off houses would be a much larger component. During the downturn we still built one-off houses but we stopped building multi-unit developments. It has taken some time to get back to building these. Part of the reason for that is that there is a lag between planning and building. Once one has planning permission for a house, which could potentially be granted within three months, and one has a builder ready, one can get started. It is always assumed one has the money ready.

The planning lag for larger developments is longer. The issue around services is greater, whereas with a one-off house one can always drill one's own well or deal with those kinds of issues. That cannot be done with larger developments. Having service sites available is important, as is the planning lag. Financing is an issue for some developers. The land may not be in the right hands. There are a whole host of reasons why units cannot be built quickly, but we are now lagging behind which means that the problem is getting worse all the time. To deal with it one would need to build more than 20,000 units because there is already a deficit. That creates its own problems because one is always running behind, which is an issue in terms of the price dimension.

I refer to Senator Burke's point on those aged 25 to 40 years who have not managed to get onto the housing ladder. Clearly, they require housing. Finance and job security are clearly major issues. I am almost certain that we will end up with a situation where a larger proportion of our population will be in rented accommodation. Rented accommodation can work fine, and does in countries like Germany where I grew up. It has to be recognised that the system there is very different and the legal system provides very different protections, not just for tenants but for landlords.

When one refers to the German system, one has to realise that unlike Ireland, which has a growing population, Germany has not had population growth for approximately 20 years. If there are enough houses to go around, it is very easy to keep a stable price, but when there is a shortage of houses, it is very difficult to maintain a stable price. The price of rental accommodation has been discussed, and is an issue as is the price of houses for purchase. If a larger proportion of people are going to rent and there is a shortage of units, rents will be higher.

My colleague touched on competitiveness and bringing migrants back in terms of the issue of housing. It is a very important issue and is becoming a significant binding constraint for some employers. I did a study recently which was funded by InterTradeIreland. As part of it I met key stakeholders, including large firms, and a number of chief executives told me they were having significant trouble hiring people from abroad. They needed to hire from abroad because they could not find particular skills locally. It was found that the housing market was becoming such a constraint that it was difficult to get people to relocate to Ireland. It is an example of where the issue of competitiveness arises through the housing market, and it is one of the reasons we mentioned it in our opening statement as an important issue to which the committee might want to return.

I am sorry I had to be absent for a while. This is an important discussion. I read the opening statement and listened to the responses. Dr. Barrett said, "Fast-forwarding to 2015, the EU Semester has the potential to force policy-makers in Ireland to think about key policy challenges in a focused way". He is absolutely correct. It also brings to bear the need for the European institutions to co-ordinate development within the European Union in a much more integrated way than they have done in the past. It is essential for the benefit of all European countries and people across Europe that it is recognised that we cannot have one country falling behind or rushing too far ahead in terms of economic development and opportunity, because that will create an imbalance and resentment and will give an imprimatur to the cyclical nature of development we have known in this and a number of other European countries over the years.

I agree with the comments on regional development. We need a more balanced and even economy in the future, and we need to plan for that. The issue that will arise is infrastructure. The "W" word, that is, water, is essential across the country in a way that it never was before, for reasons I will outline. Transport, including road, rail, bus and air, needs to be co-ordinated and developed in a way that will benefit the economy overall. Instead of regions vying with another, they will complement each other.

Alternative energy is a very emotive issue in this country at the moment. One has to speak about it in whispers because there are many strongly held views. There is no possibility of having reliable economic development in the future until such time as we recognise the full extent to which we must provide alternative energy. It is a critical issue and is part of the critical mass. It is one of the vital links, along with water and other parts of infrastructure. If we leave it out, Food Harvest 2020 can never be achieved. In the aftermath of the abolition of milk quotas, the further development of the agrifood business, which has been very beneficial to the economic recovery, will not proceed because we will be hit by penalties arising from carbon emissions. We need to deal with that as a matter of urgency. I know there are differences of opinion. Engineers have different opinions on this issue, as do environmentalists. Whether we have different opinions, it is essential that we recognise the need to have a policy. If we do not have a policy, it is no good talking about it afterwards.

I refer to IT. As we all know, we do not have the best mobile telephone service in the world. I remember a time when we had, which was only a few years ago. For a variety of reasons, we have fallen into the trap of saying we should leave things as they are. We have a problem in terms of our mental attitude to what we will need in the future. We tend to be happy in a comfort zone and for things to remain as they were. However, there is no such thing as remaining as we were. We are facing challenges in a global community which we did not have to face before. We either stand up to them, recognise them and deal with them, or we become recognised as a backwash. There is no need for us to do that because, as I have said before and as we have all recognised, during the economic boom we learned in this country to do things we did not think were possible. Ironically, in the downturn we learned to haul ourselves back to shore again from the abyss into which we fell as a result of not recognising the signs that were before us.

The witnesses are correct about the lack of housing. Housing is a fundamental piece of infrastructure. I would not lay so much emphasis on the areas throughout the country that have an over-supply of houses because that will change as the population increases, in particular in rural Ireland which has experienced more emigration than anywhere else. People will return and very quickly fill the vacant spaces.

The problem is that the fundamental policy was wrong. For example, the local authority housing building programme went by the wayside. It was a vital piece of infrastructure we no longer needed. Instead, it was to be provided by housing agencies and voluntary groups.

The voluntary groups have a great role to play, more especially with regard to sheltered housing and emergency housing accommodation. That is where they need to focus. However, the national focus has to be on how many houses can be provided annually and independent of ups and downs in the economy.

I have been listening to the greying population. Twenty years ago the year 2038 was supposed to be the crucial year. At variance with all the predictions of the time when I was in the Department of Social Welfare I remember saying that this is not true-----

A crucial year for what?

For the ratio of ageing people against those at work to the extent of creating significant pressure on the population still at work. I said that this was not true. The crucial year has been moved forward a number of years now. In Germany smaller families and the Second World War, which also affected a number of other countries, took away a very great proportion of the child-bearing population. The situation in this country is very different. We have a capacity to go further into the future without having that extra burden of a high number of retired people. It is entirely manageable if properly managed and if we make provision for pensions such as is being mooted currently. It is up to ourselves.

I hope history does not repeat itself. We have always been reluctant to make the necessary changes in time in the necessary areas to ensure that we do not fall back into the same pit because there is no excuse for doing so now. We live in a global economy in which people move around to a great extent. For example, people from this country will go to other countries because they have higher qualifications. Our education system is much better. We have progressed a long way from the time that the only thing the Irish emigrant had was a suitcase and a pick or a shovel. Things have moved on and this is no disrespect to the people - such as my own parents - who were emigrants in those years. I hope we have learned a lot. The position paper tells us a lot. It identifies many aspects but there a few that it omits and which need to be dealt with.

I wish to ask a question which has not been raised by other speakers but it arose in previous discussions. I refer to jobs. The discussion paper states that significant progress has been made with regard to the reduction in unemployment levels from 15% a few short years ago to just around 10% at present. Some concern has been expressed as to the quality and sustainability of some of those jobs. This question was raised during our discussions on the 2020 targets. We suggested a range of measures that could be included to monitor progress towards the 2020 targets and with regard to the quality of jobs. Is there room for a target for quality or sustainable jobs?

Professor Alan Barrett

I will be selective with regard to the questions. I will pick up on the issue of the ageing population. I recently spent two years in Trinity College Dublin at the Irish longitudinal study on ageing so this subject is close to my heart. Deputy Durkan is correct that Ireland is fortunate in this regard considering the demographic pressures that are present in Germany, Italy and very much so in Japan, of this changing age structure. Ireland is in a slightly different place but this change will happen here in the future. It is not that there is a particular year when the world will change but there are two very basic factors. We are living longer - which is a very good thing and Ireland is benefitting from longevity - and we are having fewer children. When those two things are put together the demographics move in a particular direction. Rather than thinking that we are lucky at the moment and that this is a problem in the distance, this is a set of problems that is completely predictable. We have beaten ourselves up over the years about the fact that we have not seen things coming. Population ageing is critical. Health features in the national reform programme but we have not talked about it extensively. Population ageing will be a huge issue in terms of intensive hospital treatment and long-term care of older people. These issues are all coming down the tracks. We have time on our side to start planning for them and we need to start doing that now so that we make a good job of it.

The pension issue may be out there in the future but the solutions to this only exist now. If we do not start making serious efforts to get people to start putting money aside, it will be too late at the time the ageing kicks in. There are implications for competitiveness because if it is the case that this has to be done through pay packets, people will interpret it as an additional tax and it will put more pressure on employers to make up the difference. This is a real issue that we need to be thinking about and discussing.

On the question about sustainable jobs, during a period of recovery there will variability in the quality of the jobs on offer. However, in my view the notion of sustainable jobs in a narrow sense is very outdated and not very helpful. It links in with some of the material referred to by Senator Burke. We know we live in a very dynamic age. The buzzword a number of years ago was to make people employable - not employed - but employable. The notion that somebody would get a job and could be guaranteed that job for a very long time, did not fit with the realities of the modern world and how life meanders. Employability should be the driving force. This means equipping people with training and education and a degree of flexibility. This comes back to some of the security issues we discussed. People's level of income does not matter but the variability in that income is probably the one area that modern economies have failed to address. We have done very well at producing more goods and raising living standards but economics is cyclical to a phenomenal degree. We need safety nets, social insurance nets, all those sort of things, combined with employability, but the notion of thinking in terms of sustainable jobs I am not sure is moving us in the right direction. I may not have answered the question but those are some of my reflections.

Dr. Edgar Morgenroth

I will deal specifically with the issue of infrastructure to which Deputy Durkan referred. It links very significantly with the housing issue. I mentioned earlier that planning is an issue as is the availability of serviced sites. One could have pipes in the ground but no water to go through them. We have constraints in the Dublin area in particular with regard to water and wastewater treatment. We have similar issues in other places and it is probably the most critical infrastructure issue we need to deal with.

There are also very significant transport issues but the transport issues are much more localised at this stage. Dublin, in particular, has an urban transport problem. We have more or less completed the inter-urban motorway system which has made a big difference to accessibility but the issue of urban transport remains and this has been picked up in the reform programme under the sustainability dimension. We have targets for non-ETS GHG emissions which we will struggle to meet and which will create significant problems in the transport area.

Energy is one of the big issues in the developed world in general. It is one of the key economic issues at this stage. I am not well enough qualified to talk about all aspects of it but it is being taken very seriously and changes in energy prices have had an impact over recent years.

On behalf of the committee I thank both guests for their attendance. Our discussion has been very useful. The committee will send a report to the Commission and to the Ministers in the near future. The comments made by the guests today will certainly help us in that respect.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.10 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Thursday, 7 May 2015.
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