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Joint Committee on European Union Affairs díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Jun 2022

Engagement with Representatives of the European Committee of the Regions

I welcome the delegation and all those in the Gallery, with their different roles and representing various regional authorities and cities. It is great to have them all here. Cuirim fáilte ar son an choiste roimh an uachtarán, Mr. Apostolos Tzitzikostas. He is very welcome. I hope I am pronouncing his name correctly. It is very good to see the head of the Irish delegation to the European Committee of the Regions, Councillor Michael Murphy, and his fellow delegate, Councillor Kate Feeney. They are all very welcome. The European Committee of the Regions has three political priorities: bringing Europe closer to the people; managing fundamental societal transformations; and cohesion, our fundamental value.

All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if the statement of a witness is potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, the witness will be directed to discontinue these remarks. It is imperative that he or she comply with any such direction.

I invite Mr. Tzitzikostas to make his presentation.

Mr. Apostolos Tzitzikostas

I thank the members of the Joint Committee on European Affairs for meeting today. I also thank my colleagues, the members of the Irish delegation to the European Committee of the Regions, which is one of the strongest and most active delegations of our house and whose dedication and hard work both on the ground and in our committee have been so important and valuable during these very challenging times.

Just take a moment to think about what we have been through in the past two and a half years. The crises we have gone through have turned our longer term challenges into urgent priorities. Digitalisation has made a difference between having students attend their classes and not, and having companies survive and not. Energy transition and building a sustainable green Europe are no longer only an environmental challenge but a geopolitical necessity.

All this time, from the utmost horror of the war in Ukraine and the ongoing suffering of Covid to the impact of Brexit, and from the ultimate threat of climate change to Europe's unhealthy dependence on Russian gas and crude oil, European regions and cities have been on the front line. During these historic crises, they have been protecting citizens, delivering vital services, accelerating green and digital transitions, diversifying energy sources, saving businesses and jobs and, of course, providing help and shelter to the millions of Ukrainians who have fled their country because of the war. It is regional and local leaders in Europe who have, right from the start of the attack against Ukraine, organised humanitarian aid and welcomed refugees in the regions bordering Ukraine and in every other corner of Europe. At the same time, the European Committee of the Regions has swiftly created and put in place a web-based Ukraine info-support hub, a platform that can be visited on our website and that matches needs in Ukraine and its bordering regions with offers for help. We have called for an improvement in access to emergency EU funding to make it easier and faster for regions to access it and to provide rapid support and manage the humanitarian crisis.

We have also introduced an important initiative to host children from Ukraine in summer camps across Europe. Now we are building a big European alliance of cities and regions for the reconstruction of Ukraine, linking local and regional authorities in Europe in order to co-ordinate and facilitate contacts and co-operation with the Ukrainian local and regional authorities, following the proposal of President Zelenskyy and the support of President Michel. My call to the Irish regions and cities today is to join this alliance and our initiatives for the children and the reconstruction of Ukraine.

All these consecutive and parallel crises have shown that no matter one’s size, strength and power, no one alone can deal with the challenges and meet the real needs of the people. This is how the European Committee of the Regions sees our European house of democracy: the EU being the protective roof; the member states, the strong walls; and the regions and cities, the solid foundations. All levels of government must work together to bring results. There is no other way to work.

I welcome the fact that, with the Irish programme for Government, there is for the first time a clear commitment to regional development as a policy implementation objective. I trust that the role of regional and local administrations will be enhanced to deal with the huge challenges all across Europe, including the access to affordable housing and the crisis of the rise of the cost of living.

At the same time, I have to admit that I deeply regret that the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement lacks "territorial depth" and does not duly recognise the role of local and regional authorities in the EU-UK relationship. As I understand it, internal political matters are the reason the United Kingdom failed to assure a local democratic voice in the EU-UK partnership council. Moreover, we support a joint and responsible approach to the implementation of the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement, including the Northern Ireland protocol, and respect for the level playing field. For this reason, I am deeply worried about the unilateral interpretation by London of the protocol, which could turn into a de facto hard Brexit, a disruption of the UK-EU trade with very strong repercussions for Ireland and risking the jeopardising of the Good Friday Agreement.

For us, one thing is clear. There are many regions in Ireland and all over the rest of Europe that are so heavily impacted and so heavily invested in partnerships with UK devolved nations and local governments, so there are so many untapped opportunities in areas of mutual interest — such as providing humanitarian assistance and managing sustainably the North Sea, the Channel and the Irish Sea, as well as fighting against climate change and implementing the sustainable development goals — that the role of regional and local authorities is irreplaceable.

Let me conclude by saying that our Union can survive and move forward only if our citizens care about it and believe in it. More than ever before, we must build a bottom-up future for Europe with more democratic representation of the people's vote and less institutional complexity. We must win back the trust of the citizens. This involves their trust in all three levels of government and the three levels of elected politicians - European, national and regional and local. These three levels of trust are interconnected and can only succeed if they reinforce each other. If one of these levels is missing, the whole European house of democracy collapses. To put it in simple words, we need a lively parliamentary democracy with a stronger European Parliament, stronger national parliaments and the European Committee of the Regions, as well as Europe's 240 regions and 90,000 municipalities, at its core. This is how we view the future of democracy in Europe and the future of Europe.

I thank President Tzitzikostas for his presentation, insights and well thought out contribution. I now invite Councillor Michael Murphy, the head of the Irish delegation, to make his opening statement. He is a Tipperary man.

Mr. Michael Murphy

Yes - Contae Tiobraid Árann. I thank the Chairman and the committee for facilitating and hosting us this morning. It is a pleasure and a privilege to be here. As head of the Irish delegation to the European Committee of the Regions, CoR, I am delighted to give a céad míle fáilte to my dear friend President Tzitzikostas and to thank him for taking the time to visit Ireland. From the outset, I reiterate his call for a reformed Europe built from the bottom-up on a model of a European house of democracy. I thank him for his words of solidarity on this week's worrying developments regarding the Northern Ireland protocol. I want to be very clear on my behalf and that of the Irish delegation to the CoR and put on record our complete opposition to the decision taken by the UK to table legislation disapplying core elements of the protocol. As stated by Vice President Šefčovič, unilateral action damages mutual trust. The Irish delegation to the CoR calls for a calm and measured joint approach to addressing any outstanding issues with the protocol. Protecting peace on this island is paramount.

In the CoR, I sit alongside President Tzitzikostas in the European People's Party Group, which is the largest political group in the CoR. President Tzitzikostas often reminds us of the following and I must reiterate it here now. Local and regional authorities implement 70% of all EU legislation and represent half of public employment, more than a half of public investment and a third of public spending. The CoR is the EU institution that is closest to European citizens. Sometimes it is forgotten that we are the second of only two EU institutions with elected members so we have clear democratic legitimacy.

Since the start of this mandate in February 2020, I have had the privilege to lead the work of one of the legislative committees of the CoR as the chair of the economic policy commission. The European Committee on Economic and Monetary Affairs, ECON, has examined legislative proposals from the European Commission on the implementation of free trade agreements, the Brexit adjustment reserve, the Digital Services Act and the Digital Markets Act, to mention a few of our reports, and has sent them on to the co-legislators to influence colleagues and impact laws that take account of regional and local assets and challenges. As an example, I highlight the work of a recently adopted opinion for which I was rapporteur entitled "Strengthening the EU-UK relationship at subnational level and remedying the territorial impact of the UK's withdrawal from the EU". There was much concern from local authorities across Europe about how the UK exit from the EU would impact their regions. On the UK side, I did not find the same tired political rhetoric we hear day and night from Westminster, rather the opposite. UK local and regional authorities have genuine concerns about the future relationship and have a real desire to work with Irish and EU local and regional authorities to ensure the smoothest and safest transition for their regions. I have copies of this opinion with me and would be delighted to take the committee through it bilaterally. I think my colleagues have copies.

There are significant opportunities for Ireland - for our communities and our citizens - but we need support for local authorities. We are very lucky to have the Irish regions European office in Brussels, which acts as a bridge between Irish local and regional government and the EU explaining and guiding its stakeholders through the Brussels scene and promoting Irish interests and best practices at the European level. This includes strong networks - place-based networks with regional offices representing large swathes of Europe - that often have legislative powers and fiscal autonomy for certain areas of competence.

I believe more can be done at local level. We all know the benefits of having a European officer in each local and regional authority. An example of what can happen when supports are given is the Chairman's own constituency of Donegal. Donegal County Council has installed a full-time European office. The same can be said for Cork City Council and Limerick City and County Council. I call on the committee to support the allocation of funding for European officers in local and regional authorities across the country. It is no surprise that it is those local authorities that have a full-time EU affairs officer that are the ones best positioned to access the great opportunities that exist at European level.

Before handing over to my colleague Councillor Kate Feeney, who will outline in more detail the work of the Irish delegation, I will conclude by paying tribute to my CoR colleagues - the members and alternates in the Irish delegation to the CoR. It is a genuine pleasure to lead this group of dedicated public representatives, who are working tirelessly in Brussels on behalf of local communities of Ireland. I invite the joint committee to Brussels to see at first hand the work of the Irish delegation in the CoR.

I now invite Ms Feeney to make her opening presentation.

Ms Kate Feeney

I like to say that I am a Sligo girl but a Dublin woman. I thank the Chairman and members for inviting us to appear before them this afternoon. I also welcome President Tzitzikostas to Dublin and thank him for bringing the sunshine with him from Greece. I hope he leaves it behind when he goes back home.

As members of the CoR - and I see Deputy Richmond, a former member, is here - we are in a unique position to see the workings and interactions of the EU institutions up close but we also have an opportunity to see how they impact local communities at home and across the EU. This is something that not all local representatives are exposed to.

Because of this, two weeks ago, when the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe, ALDE, Party conference took place in Dublin, we decided to bring together local councillors from throughout Ireland to discuss how to bring Europe closer to the local community. I moderated the session and one point that was raised repeatedly related to the need for all levels of governance, European, national, regional and local, to work better together. This is a point Mr. Tzitzikostas raised previously during European Committee of the Regions debates and again today with his apt analogy of building a house and ensuring all the parts support one another.

The model of a two-dimensional Europe based simply on the European institutions and national governments has shown its limitations. Citizens who are passionate about Europe, and who like all of us in this room want to see the European project succeed, are rejecting the model we have had to date. Citizens from community groups to small business owners, farmers and, in particular, young people have voiced their desire to be part of Europe, of the decisions that are made and of drafting policy priorities and, importantly, of defining Europe's identity on the world stage. All of this starts by making Europe accessible to people at a local level.

This is all the more relevant when we consider that this month marks six years since the Brexit vote. Brexit rightly continues to occupy much of our time and discourse in Ireland as we try to minimise its impact, but that can make it difficult to take time to stop and find learnings from it. If Brexit has taught us anything, it is the need for citizens to understand what Europe is doing for them. This means bridging the gap between Brussels and communities, moving beyond the bubble, acronyms, lingo and jargon and, if I can be bold, moving beyond rooms such as this one. It is about making Europe available and visible to everyone, in every community on our island, and about giving those communities a sense of ownership of Europe, and the key is accessibility. This point about making Europe more accessible was raised during the Conference on the Future of Europe, and it is about doing so at a local level.

We in the Irish delegation to the European Committee of the Regions are playing our part in doing this. We play a leading role in the work of the European Committee of the Regions by influencing EU policies on citizens' dialogues; the Conference on the Future of Europe; free trade agreements, which Councillor Murphy mentioned; the New European Bauhaus; UK-EU relations; digital education; the inclusion of cities in COP27, small urban areas for a just transition; and, in my own work, building a Europe of equality and protecting LGBTIQ+ rights throughout Europe. Our delegation chose and championed these issues because we know how important they are to people at home. I am proud of the work we do as a team but, unfortunately, the lack of supports and frameworks available to our local councils mean we are not fully participating in the programmes and initiatives of the EU. We are not maximising the benefits of this work for the communities we represent.

Ireland has been a net contributor to the EU since 2013, but even as net contributors, we supported a larger budget for the European Union. We do this because, as An Taoiseach told the European Parliament last week, we have seen the overwhelmingly positive impact membership has delivered for all dimensions of our society, and because our membership has been an historic enabler of sustained progress for Ireland. Again, however, when it comes to supports and partnerships for our local communities, there is much more we can do and get.

This is my key point, which Councillor Murphy also made. Our local councils need to be empowered to work not only vertically but also horizontally. They need to be empowered such that when they are faced with challenges such as the Covid-19 pandemic and smaller challenges such as managing libraries and parks, they can access wealth, knowledge and resources from other councils in Europe just like our own that are facing similar issues, but to do this we need proper supports, resources and frameworks, which are currently lacking. I ask, therefore, that the committee support our local councils, work with us and help us develop the tools and networks we need in order that our councils and communities can access Europe and feel truly part of the European project.

I thank both Councillor Feeney and Councillor Murphy for their strong message. There was certainly a lot of food for thought for us as a committee.

My first question relates to the post-Brexit scenario. When I was a member of the European Committee of the Regions, there was significant input from members of the Northern Ireland Assembly and councillors from Northern Ireland to our work and it was very important in the build-up to Brexit to hear those voices, whether unionist, nationalist or other, ringing in about how it would impact on the ground in terms of local application, bearing in mind the level of devolved responsibilities to the Executive and the Assembly for implementing the protocol. A proposal at European Parliament level, suggested by Barry Andrews MEP, was that observer status be given to representatives from Northern Ireland. Is that something the European Committee of the Regions could do? Could it be pushed for across political parties?

All three of our guests referred to the Conference on the Future of Europe, which I attended with Mr. Tzitzikostas, Deputy Ó Murchú and Councillor McCarthy. I recall that some of Mr. Tzitzikostas's interventions were very similar to points made by Councillor Feeney. Many of the suggestions we received from citizens related to actions the EU was already taking, although perhaps it was not doing them well enough or perhaps it simply was not telling people about them. One point I have been making long term in regard to the European Union and all the institutions in its collective is that it is great at telling people how they can give out about the European Union but it is not great at telling people how they can benefit from it. This relates to citizens as well as elected representatives, and it is clear that in our local authorities, a dearth of information and resources is available to officials to ensure they can draw down enough funding and work with other local and regional authorities throughout the European Union. Both Councillor Feeney and Councillor Murphy have made a fairly direct challenge to the members of this committee, but the challenge in reverse relates to what the European Union and its institutions - whether the European Committee of the Regions, the Commission, the Parliament, the Council or the European Economic and Social Committee, our guests' co-tenants - are going to do. How can we ensure they will also seek to burst the bubble in Brussels, Strasbourg or wherever it may be?

I thank all our guests for attending. We had a great meeting in the previous term with one of Mr. Tzitzikostas's predecessors, Mr. Markku Markkula. Now that Covid has lifted to an extent, being able to have these meetings in person and not over Zoom is a very welcome change.

Mr. Michael Murphy

I might take the first question. Like Councillor Feeney, I acknowledge the Deputy is a former member of the European Committee of the Regions and a former head of the Irish delegation. He asked specifically about the newly established Parliamentary Partnership Assembly, PPA, which has met for the first time. I mentioned the opinion on which I worked on behalf of the European Committee of the Regions, which was adopted unanimously, strengthening the EU-UK relationship at a sub-national level. During the course of the drafting and adoption of that opinion, I worked closely with the Northern Ireland Local Government Association, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, COSLA, the Welsh Local Government Association and the Welsh senate, and the UK Local Government Association.

One of the key conclusions of the opinion relates to a strong willingness at local and regional level to work closely to strengthen co-operation at a local and regional level. The narrative at the local and regional level is completely different from the rhetoric coming from Westminster, and we in the European Committee of the Regions are working closely with local government associations throughout the United Kingdom. One issue on which we worked very closely related to obtaining observer status at the PPA and, thankfully, that was a big win for us. The European Committee of the Regions has observer status at the Parliamentary Partnership Assembly.

The devolved governments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland also have observer status at the Parliamentary Partnership Assembly, PPA. Regrettably, the UK has decided not to include its local government associations or give speaking time to local and regional government at meetings of the PPA. Following on from the PPA's first meeting, though, I hope that the UK's local and regional government will have speaking time, and there are sounds coming from the PPA's administration that it will get speaking time. It is crucial for the implementation and governance of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement that local and regional government have some input. Local and regional government in the EU is represented at the PPA by the Committee of the Regions, but local and regional government on the UK side not being involved is a decision for the UK.

The narrative at local and regional level across the UK is different from the narrative at Westminster. Local and regional government there wants to co-operate further, particularly on matters that know no boundaries, for example, climate change and protecting the environment, tourism, security and energy. They are beating that drum, so it is regrettable that the UK has decided to stop participating in territorial co-operation programmes, which are at the heart of the EU project. The macro issues must be sorted out, but if we move beyond those, perhaps we can revisit territorial co-operation.

That addresses the PPA element of the question. Perhaps Ms Feeney wishes to address the question's two other elements.

Ms Kate Feeney

I thank Deputy Richmond for his question. Regarding what the institutions are doing, breaking the bubble is a major challenge. National and local politicians in Ireland have a tendency to take credit when Europe does something well and to blame it when things go wrong. This does not help when we are trying to communicate Europe's message. With the help of the Irish Regions European Office, we ran a series of seminars over the past 12 months on communicating Europe across each of the regional assembly areas. We have also partaken in a number of citizens' dialogues. Indeed, we are taking part in another tomorrow.

Undoubtedly, trying to make the benefits of EU membership tangible for people on the ground is a challenge. For instance, many do not know that the Erasmus+ programme or the free Interrail passes that are handed out to 18-year-olds across the Union are connected to the European project. This is about reinforcing such messages.

The Committee of the Regions is seeking an expanded budget from the Commission. Something we would like to do with that budget is to set up satellite hubs across the Union. They would be similar to the offices that the European Parliament has in various capital cities, but we would like to have ours out in the regions. We could use them as hubs from which to communicate our message.

Communicating the message is a challenge for each of us. Every person in this room must take on that challenge and check our language and messaging when communicating matters concerning Europe.

Mr. Apostolos Tzitzikostas

I will add some ideas about the future of Europe. Last month, the Conference on the Future of Europe ended. It was an interesting discussion in which Deputy Richmond and other Irish Members were active. However, a significant question has arisen since the end of the conference, and that is, what now? For a year plus some months, citizens, organisations, societies and teams of people across Europe gave us their ideas and voiced their concerns. After all of that, if Europe ends the discussion at this point and does nothing, it will be a disaster. It is clear, not only to those of us who participated in the conference but to all citizens of Europe, that Europe's last chance might be now. Now that the conference has concluded, we must realise that we have no more time to lose. Europe must change now. This is the only way to stop the anti-European sentiment that we are seeing across Europe, for example, Brexit, the French presidential election and yesterday's parliamentary elections in France. We see anti-European voices rising in most of the 27 member states. Why is this the case? It is simply because citizens – the people – feel left out of the process that is happening in Strasbourg and Brussels. We need to build a more open, more democratic and more transparent Europe and bring our citizens on board.

How do we do this? It is not possible for more than 400 million citizens to be involved in a process. That is why we are here. We represent 240 regions, 90,000 municipalities and 1.2 million elected politicians at regional and local levels in Europe. We can be the actors who help to bring Europe closer to the citizens and the citizens closer to Europe. Let them understand, and give them the feeling that they are part of, the decision-making process.

We made specific amendments to the final conclusions of the Conference on the Future of Europe, which were included in the final draft. They deal with the need to change and upgrade the strength and role of the European Committee of the Regions, which not only includes regions, but also cities. It is not a committee, but an assembly. We are the only chamber outside the European Parliament that is directly elected by the citizens. We are divided into political groups, have 329 members and function just as a parliament. However, we do not have decisive powers. We can only advise the European Parliament. We are asking for a more decisive role, especially when it comes to issues that have territorial aspects. In this way, not only will citizens feel more involved, but cities and regions will be able to tell Europe the best way to provide solutions to real problems. Regions and cities have the most proximity to the lives of citizens. As such, we have a deep knowledge of what the real issues and problems are and what the solutions to them should be.

We support the idea of a convention in Europe that will open some of the treaties and see what can be changed in order to make our Europe more democratic, more open and better functioning. In this new era, the European Committee of the Regions and, therefore, the cities and regions of Europe want their role to be understood as one that can not only help to bring Europe closer to the citizens in the regions and cities, but can also make citizens believe and trust in this European vision again.

There are a number of speakers. I ask all speakers to be more concise to allow as many people as possible to contribute.

I thank everyone for attending. I believe this may be the largest delegation we have ever had at a meeting of the Joint Committee on European Affairs. Maybe some of the online meetings during lockdown were bigger but they were different. It is important to have this dialogue. I thank the president of the European Committee of the Regions, Mr. Tzitzikostas, for his presentation and kindness in not pointing out the weakness of Ireland's local government system, which is the weakest in Europe. We need to do something about that. Mr. Tzitzikostas made the point, perhaps as a result of his natural diplomacy, that we must strengthen the European Parliament, national parliaments and local government. In truth, we need to rebalance the functionality of each of these and that is a job of work for us in Ireland, in particular. Those of us who served in Government bear responsibility for the weakness of local government in Ireland.

Members of the committee engage all the time on Europe and I was taken by the point on communicating the vision and principles of Europe to the citizenry. Everyone has a solution when they appear before us to discuss this. I wonder how many people in Wexford would know what the Committee of the Regions is if I stopped and asked some of them. If I were to ring around the councils, how many councillors would be able to answer that question? That is a very profound issue for those involved to answer. The committee is an intrinsic and fundamental part of the European democratic structure and we need to do something about that collectively as well. Perhaps this dialogue is the start so that those of us interested in European affairs are not in little echo chambers talking about grandiose notions. Even when we go on roadshows on Europe, how many people come to the seminars apart from those who are interested and knowledgeable from the start? There are fundamental issues in that regard.

I have another point to raise before I ask a question. It was said that empowering local authorities is the way to deepen appreciation of Europe and combat growing nationalism or xenophobia. There are an awful lot of elected councillors across Europe who are xenophobic and are sending a different message out. The solution is more complex than that.

From an Irish perspective, I thank the Committee of the Regions for the solidarity shown on Brexit. Many people believed there would not be solidarity from across the Union on the unique requirements of Ireland and did not expect the ongoing expression of solidarity we heard today. We have a very intimate parliamentary system because, as everyone knows, Irish Members of Parliament are very close to the ground. We provide clinics all the time and hear people in a way that is not replicated in every European country. How do parliamentarians link in better with what is happening at European level in terms of the Committee of the Regions to advocate for the sort of direct contact between people, which it has been said is so important?

Ms Kate Feeney

I thank Deputy Howlin for his question. I am glad he raised the subsidiarity issues because I was certainly not going to mention the war. A joke is often made that we are probably sitting in the biggest county council in the country here in Dáil Éireann. That is something we need to address when talking about the rebalancing of powers. The Deputy is right. If you speak to county councillors in any part of the country, you will find councillors who do not know what the Committee of the Regions is. We have reporting structures but we are sitting in committee rooms such as this. We report to our regional assemblies. It does not trickle down to our council chambers and that is a problem. We have newsletters that go out to councillors who have signed up to them. We are relying on people to sign up for the newsletter and then relying on them to open it once it lands in their inbox. We are trying to find ways around that.

The Deputy Howlin raised the issue of trying to use local and regional authorities to fight xenophobia in cities. It is a message we in the Committee of the Regions champion. Of course, there are local representatives who do not sign up to that message in the same way that there are national representatives who do not, and they can be found in every member state. It is, however, a message we try to champion. This year, the president, Mr. Tzitzikostas, awarded the first Pawe Adamowicz award. Pawe Adamowicz was a mayor who was a strong supporter of LGBTQI rights and was murdered in his home city. The award was given to Ms Henriette Reker, Mayor of Cologne, who was the target of a xenophobic attack that nearly took her life on the eve of her election. She was elected while she was in a coma. She was the first recipient of the award. We use our position and committee to champion those ideals and award those who sign up to them.

On how we can further the dialogue at home, meetings like this are important. We should hold them more often. We should get them out of rooms like this and engage with people who are not always engaged in the conversation. That may be done by choosing subject matter. I know when Councillor Fintan Phelan in Carlow held a local dialogue meeting he chose a local issue to discuss, which meant people who would not normally care about the EU came along and learned about it as a result. We have to find better ways of doing it but today is a good start.

Mr. Michael Murphy

Deputy Howlin is absolutely right. If I were to walk down the streets of Clonmel and told citizens that I am a member of the European Committee of the Regions, they would ask what that is about. One could say that about a lot of institutions at European, regional or national level. The reason we are here today is try to communicate our work in Europe at a local level. We do that through different mediums. We communicate our work to the regional assemblies. We also talk to local authority members. We publish and distribute newsletters. It is a real challenge, however.

I return to the concept of having a European affairs officer in every local authority. That would be very important. I would love for the Joint Committee on European Affairs to invite in the County and City Management Association, CCMA, for example, and ask what the local authority chief executives are doing. I will give a different analogy. The appointment of a broadband officer in every local authority was a new initiative introduced some years ago. I cannot emphasis enough how successful that was and we could do the same by having an EU affairs officer in every local authority.

I continuously make the point that all the citizens we represent are concerned with what they perceive to be national issues, such as infrastructural deficits. The irony is that Europe is playing a key role in delivering on those challenges. LEADER funding is spent at local level but local authorities do not communicate that this money comes from Europe. I think members understand the point I am making. It is a real challenge. We are trying and doing our best, which is why we are here today and taking a number of different steps. There is real engagement between the Irish Regions European Office and local authorities on creating awareness. If I have one message I would like delivered today, it is about the work this committee can do in delivering EU affairs officers to each local authority.

Mr. Apostolos Tzitzikostas

Mr. Murphy is right on his assessment of the lack of knowledge of institutions, generally speaking, and not only of ours. If we broaden it out a little, things are not getting any better if we think about it. Does the Deputy think the average European citizen knows his or her Commissioner, and there is only one Commissioner for each member state? I doubt it. Does he think the average citizen knows his or her country's Members of the European Parliament? I doubt it. Very few do. Some will know their members of national parliaments if they are vocal. However, does the Deputy know who they certainly do know? They know their mayors. They know the presidents of regions. They deal with them every day. The regional local governments in most European member states engage not only in words but in actions. We implement many public works today using European funding. We transform anonymous European funds to life-changing public works for the citizens in their citizen regions. This is exactly why I said I believe citizen regions can play this role - because of our proximity to the citizens and their issues and the fact we are using all this European funding, especially Cohesion Funds, to build schools, hospitals and roads, to support SMEs and people in difficulty, to create environmental works and to carry out transport, culture, education and tourism projects. We are able to show the average citizen what Europe is all about and how it influences his or her everyday life, and that the notion Europe is something distant that does not affect us is wrong.

The next speaker is Deputy Ó Murchú, followed by Deputy Haughey.

Ta fáilte roimh gach duine atá anseo. It is great to have this interaction. In fairness, Deputy Howlin probably dealt with the first issue I was going to deal with, which is the weakness of our local government. Certain powers lie with us or with the Executive, and not with local representatives. Beyond that, there is a general under-resourcing of those areas for which there is a responsibility.

Solidarity for the Northern Ireland protocol has been stated and I add my voice to that.

We need to follow up on Councillor Murphy’s proposal to have an EU affairs officer at each local authority. If we need to bring in representatives of the County and City Management Association, CCMA, or of some other body, perhaps that is a job of work we should consider doing. What have been the advantages where such an officer has been in place?

To follow up on the conversation we have had previously on the distance from politics felt by the people, it is not only at a European level. That distance is major at this point in time and it has left a vast vacuum. I would say we, and that includes all of us, were not the most representative group of people in the room at the Conference on the Future of Europe. If public meetings were held anywhere across Ireland, and I imagine throughout Europe, a range of issues would have come to the fore that did not come to the fore at that forum. I refer specifically to the drugs issue, drug addiction and crime. I can point to the number of times those issues are spoken about in these Houses and at local level. What item of work can be done from the point of view of bridging that gap? Europe has sold itself to the vast majority of us - particularly those of us here who may have had a difficulty with it at the time of the financial crash - in dealing with the pandemic, the Ukrainian crisis and, hopefully, the cost-of-living crisis and what mitigations Europe can provide in that context. What item of work can we do to bridge that gap with people? We have skirted around some of that issue. I acknowledge it is not the simplest of questions to answer.

I will bring in Deputy Haughey at this time.

I thank the delegations for their presentations. This engagement has been very informative regarding the work of the Committee of the Regions. I thank the president of the committee for his comments on the protocol and the solidarity he has shown to us. I also acknowledge the comment he made about the challenges with regard to the Ukrainian refugees, and children in particular, and the work he is doing there.

I am conscious of the time factor and I have only two questions. The first one is for the president. He spoke about the need to bring Europe closer to the citizens, how that can be done and the role of the Committee of the Regions in that regard. I wish to expand on that with regard to geopolitics generally. President Biden has spoken about the battle between democracy and autocracy throughout the world. We have some experience of that manifesting itself in Europe with respect to rule of law issues and the Brexit vote in 2016. I refer to the battle between internationalism and unilateralism and the need for a rules-based international order. The president spoke about bringing Europe closer to the citizens. Does he envisage the Committee of the Regions having a role to play in that wider debate between autocracy and democracy? Are the two concepts related?

With regard to Councillor Murphy and Councillor Feeney, we have touched on the issue of local government reform. We are in the presence of a former Minister with responsibility for local government. We realise we have a very centralised form of government in Ireland. Does the Irish delegation of the Committee of the Regions have a view on having a directly elected mayor for Dublin or any other local authority? Perhaps there is considerable division among the delegation about that. I do not mean this in a condescending way but have the councillors made a submission to the Citizens' Assembly on having a directly elected mayor?

I will bring in Senator Keogan, to be followed by Deputy Calleary.

All the delegates are welcome here today. I am delighted they came before us and made presentations. One of the first issues I spoke about when I became a member of this committee was having a bottom-up approach when it comes to Europe. I have very much advocated for a European strategic policy committee, SPC, for every local authority, which is important, and for there to be a European department in every local authority in the country. The top-down approach does not work. It does not provide for engaging with the citizen as much. That should happen locally. I come from a local government background and I know how distant the gap is from local government to European affairs. It is all very well for us to haul in before this committee the Minister with responsibility for local government, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, or the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Byrne, but the money has to come from somewhere for funding SPCs. Some counties already have a European affairs department. They have not only a European affairs officer but also a department. Some councils are doing it really well. What would the delegates' message be today for other councils, and for the Minister with responsibility for European Affairs, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister with responsibility for local government, as to how best they can work with them to have a bottom-up approach to Europe that is not there currently?

I thank the delegates not only for their presentations but also for their ongoing work. We have been set a challenge and, in fairness to Senator Keogan, she was the first to advocate for having European affairs officers.

We have been set a challenge. In fairness to Senator Keogan, she was first regarding the EU officers. It would be a wonderful way to mark Ireland's 50th anniversary as an EU member if every local authority had a fully-funded EU officer. I was struck when attending an event recently, hosted by the Bonniconlon Irish Countrywomen's Association to mark Ireland's 50 years of membership. It was the biggest event in an Irish town I had seen for a European event. It was not put as some sort of technical lecture about the EU. On the day, people were encouraged to provide their memories of the referendum, those who were around at the time of the referendum, and their memories of the debate. Yes, there were the usual inputs from the bubble, as Councillor Feeney said, about how great we are and how great we have become because of the EU. It was, however, the personal inputs and the personal stories and reflections on the difference that EU membership has made to families and to farms that had resonance on the day.

As a committee we must take the challenge. I was particularly struck by the warnings in Mr. Tzitzikostas' final remarks. As we get into our 50th year let it not be a year of ribbon-cutting and patting ourselves on the back. Let us actually leave something behind. Moving forward with the EU officers might be some way to do that. Mr. Tzitzikostas used the phrase "anonymous European funds". They have become more anonymous here since we have become, as Councillor Feeney remarked, a net contributor. We no longer seem to want to realise that EU funds, including the LEADER fund and the European Social Fund, fund much of our third and fourth level education. This has made the disconnect worse. Obviously there is the EU officers' role, but what other initiatives could we take to address this disconnect?

Councillor Murphy was at pains to emphasise that the narrative at local level across the UK was different from that in Westminster. They were also told this before Brexit. We were told this before the referendum, and that the vote was not going the way the media saw it. The regions that benefited most in financial investment by those anonymous EU funds voted to leave in the biggest numbers. I am referring to the fishing regions and the port regions. Holyhead, for example, had massive investment in its port from those anonymous EU funds, yet the region had one of the biggest leave votes. How are we going to correct that disconnect?

On a completely unrelated question, one of the biggest consequences of the war in Ukraine is the number of local representatives who have been kidnapped or murdered just because they were local representatives and had a mandate. This question is for the president or the delegation. What role has the council taken in highlighting this since 24 February, in keeping attention on that? They are like you and they are like all of us here. They are local representatives. Some of them have paid with their freedom and some have paid with their lives because they are local representatives.

Before I bring the delegation back in for their final words to sum up, I will break with protocol. I have an indication from the Gallery from Mayor and Councillor, Mr. Pip Breen, to say something. Against my better judgment, I will let him in. Having consulted with his county native here, Deputy Brendan Howlin, who is my Vice Chairman -----

Mr. Pip Breen

I thank Deputy Howlin.

-----and on the basis that this is going to be the only word from the Gallery, the floor is Councillor Breen's. He is not to be getting us all into bother now.

Mr. Pip Breen

I thank the Chairman. I have listened intently to all of the conversations. I agree wholeheartedly that there is a disconnect between the people on the ground and the EU, even among local representatives. I am chairman of the regional assembly in Waterford. The question we are often asked is: "What are you crowd doing down there?" The point that has not come up today is the fact that a massive Covid recovery fund has been handed from the EU to Ireland, which at the moment is being distributed and orchestrated. This is more than €500 million. This is real money coming from the EU but as some members have stated, we do not have a full-time EU officer in all of the councils. I believe there are only three or four currently. It is very necessary because the paperwork is complex. It would not be complex to a person who was full time at it. As Mr. Tzitzikostas said, we need real connectedness between the EU and the people on the ground.

In most of the EU regions, 40% of control is devolved to the local councils, but in Ireland it is less than 9%. That is something we must balance a bit. We do need a bit more control from the ground up to give people the connection they need. The EU has been very good to Ireland and I believe we can give something back. We are a very democratic society. Ireland is probably one of the longest lasting democracies, excepting that we have a problem with our Border at the moment. As the Chairman knows, this has the potential to implode badly if we do not bite the bullet on this.

I appreciate that intervention from Mr. Breen. We will now have final words from the three representative councillors

Ms Kate Feeney

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the time, engagement, and the questions this morning. I will just touch briefly on Deputy Haughey's question on the directly elected mayor, as he is the only Dublin-based Oireachtas Member present, while I acknowledge the presence of the sitting Lord Mayor of Dublin.

As a delegation we would struggle to come to a defined consensus and make a joint submission on this. We are 18 members in total with nine full members and nine alternate members. All political parties are represented and we have Independent members in the group too. While we wear the green jersey and speak with one voice when we are in Brussels, the debates are a little more interesting when we are at home and we would struggle to find a common message on that. I am glad the assembly has brought in mayors from different cities, and mayors with different structures and different executive powers. The way the assembly is being run is very good. Personally, I will make a submission but a joint submission will not be coming from the delegation in that regard.

I thank Councillor Feeney.

Mr. Michael Murphy

I am aware that time is of the essence here, so I will make just a few brief points, including if anything can be done to restore the Borough of Clonmel and the other boroughs as well. The Borough of Clonmel was granted by royal charter in 1608. It is something we held on to, despite our famed resistance to Oliver Cromwell in 1650. If there is anything the committee can do to restore that and give independence back to Clonmel, I would be very grateful.

In my introductory speech I gave the example of Cork city, represented here by Councillor Kieran McCarthy, and Cork county, Donegal and Limerick, all of which have full-time EU affairs officers. My local authority in Tipperary had such an officer but for whatever reason of staffing challenges and so on it just petered out. The local authorities with full-time EU affairs officers are accessing EU funds. Cork city is one of 100 cities, along with Dublin, that will be a climate-neutral city under the Horizon Europe funds. These are pots of money. Notwithstanding the networking opportunities, it is complex to access them. This is why we need these EU affairs officers. Ms Teresa Lennon and Mr. Tadgh Browne are here representing the Irish Regions European Office. It is a resource for the Irish authorities to engage with, but it is very important that we would have EU affairs officers who can connect with the Irish Regions European Office, which can guide the officers and help them through the complex processes involved.

I work in the private sector and I am a full-time public representative. I work also with the European Committee of the Regions. I see that local authorities can get a lot of things wrong, but they can also get a lot of things right. I was very proud of the way my local authority responded to the Covid-19 pandemic, with precision and in a timely manner. All the other local authorities were the same. They were at the epicentre of the Covid-19 recovery and response. I will give the recovery and resilience instrument as an example.

It was a big pot of money that came from Europe. Regrettably, local authorities in Ireland were not consulted to a great extent on the preparation of the recovery and resilience facility. It was really just a box-ticking exercise. They certainly were not involved in its implementation. Local authorities cannot simply be executors. If the Minister was here, I would deliver a simple message to him. Let us empower local authorities. Let us have cross-party and cross-departmental support to empower local authorities because they can deliver.

Mr. Apostolos Tzitzikostas

Most of the questions were answered by my colleagues. I have a few words to say concerning Ukraine and the atrocities happening there. It is not that the Russian regime abducted mayors in Ukraine. It also killed some of them. It is true this is a human tragedy that we never thought could happen in the 21st century within Europe and right at the border of the European Union. From the very first minute, we did all in our power to convey the message that this needs to stop immediately. I personally visited the border between the European Union and Ukraine and saw the struggles of the people. I saw millions of people fleeing from Ukraine trying to find shelter. I saw the difficulty encountered by but also the vision and will of regional and local leaders of European regions and cities at the border with Ukraine, and how they were trying to help with all the resources, in order to strengthen these people during this humanitarian disaster.

The Ukrainian situation and Russian war were the main topic of our previous plenary. We had the chance to discuss this with several mayors of Ukraine who were online. They described the situation, the atrocities happening in Ukraine and the need for support. What we have done, as I said, is create this platform in order to help. Cities and regions throughout Europe have been sending humanitarian aid. We did something to convey a strong political message as well. After consulting our colleagues, I have given honorary membership to the Mayor of Kyiv and president of the municipalities of Ukraine, Mr. Vitali Klitschko. He is now an honorary member of the Committee of Regions, which is a strong political move. We will not stop here.

As I said, the discussions about the reconstruction phase are under way. Cities and regions are getting involved in this project and alliance. We will be able to help with technocrats, engineers, mechanics and others. Help has developed in cities and regions and we will use that for Ukraine as well. Cities and regions will be involved. I already discussed this matter with President Zelenskyy. With the support of the European Commission and the Council of Europe, we will go forward and help these people who have been suffering.

I thank the Chair and dear members of the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs. It has been a privilege and an honour for me to be here today. Being from Greece, the other end of the European Union, I know how you feel being located here. I know how it is to sometimes feel like things are happening far away. I believe in Ireland. I see people with vision here. I see a great country with great prospects. I admit that I see a lot of things in common between the Greek and Irish people even though we are miles apart. Ireland can count on one more friend and ally from now on.

I thank the committee for its invitation and congratulate our great members of the European Committee of Regions who have been of tremendous help throughout these past two and a half years, holding different positions of interest in the committee, and helped to achieve all the goals we set from the beginning.

On behalf of the committee, I thank the president of the Committee of the Regions, Mr. Tzitzikostas, as well as Mr. Murphy and Ms Feeney. Today was much more than just a conversation. It was more than politicians telling one and other how great a job they are doing. A number of challenges came from both sides and that is healthy and refreshing.

We will follow up on the matter raised about the sitting of the committee. We always meet in the committee rooms. Formally, we have to meet in the precincts of Leinster House but we may have a conversation in private session about visiting Tipperary, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown or Sligo. Maybe Councillor Blaney will have us in Donegal with his big connections up there. We will leave that decision to the delegates. Members of the committee would be happy to meet them formally or informally. That would be very refreshing.

I acknowledge the Lord Mayor of Dublin, Alison Gilliland, and all the councillors from the different regions in the Public Gallery, including Councillor Pip Breen for his intervention. There was no shyness from the Wexford man intervening from the Gallery. Ar son an choiste, guím gach rath ar na finnéithe leis an obair thábhachtach seo. Gabhaim buíochas leo as díospóireacht an lae inniu agus as an obair atá déanta acu fosta. Beidh an todhchaí níos difriúla ach beimid le chéile ag obair, agus táimid anseo fá choinne thacaíochta amach anseo fosta.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.08 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 29 June 2022.
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