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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Nov 2004

Taxation Matters: Presentation.

Earlier this year the joint committee highlighted a number of matters concerning taxation that it wanted to explore before the end of the year. We said we would look at schemes of tax allowances, reliefs, exemptions and deductions. The schemes that provide tax breaks for property and development are of particular interest but are not our exclusive concern. The continuation of these schemes had been the subject of ongoing debate between members of the committee and the former Minister for Finance. Today the committee will elicit facts about how these schemes operate, what they cost the Exchequer in tax forgone, the number who benefit from them and the extent to which they benefit. We will also look at the taxation rules in respect of residency.

This discussion is timely because we have received a good briefing note on the issue from the Revenue Commissioners. The figures have been well documented. These allowances and reliefs will cost €8.4 billion in the current year. There is also a detailed list of the cost and number benefiting from each scheme. There are 30 other schemes which have not been costed.

Members are particularly aware that, based on the most recent figures, 250 people with incomes more than €100,000 per annum had a zero tax liability. A number with incomes of over €1 million also had a zero liability for income tax. Most reasonable people take the view that those with incomes in excess of €100,000 should not get away with a zero liability for income tax. This is unfair and discredits the tax system and the good schemes in place, many of which have been initiated for a good reason. Hundreds of thousands benefit from them through the creation of employment. While we operate a low tax economy, for some it has been a no tax economy. We cannot let this continue. We must examine the situation where excessive use of these allowances and reliefs has led to an abuse of the schemes by certain high earners. In due course, there should be an effective minimum tax rate at which all taxpayers should have to pay when claiming any of these allowances. We represent a broad cross-section of views and most agree that high earners should pay some tax.

The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland is represented by Mr. Pat Costello, chief executive; Mr. John Greely, deputy president and practising accountant; Ms Marie Barr, a member of its council and a practising accountant, and Mr. Kieran Ryan, a member of the institute and practising accountant. I welcome the delegation and thank its members for appearing today. After the presentation, we will allocate time to each political group represented on the committee.

While the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of visitors are not. I also remind members that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or persons outside of the Houses. The representatives of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland are here in a voluntary capacity. We sought their assistance in our deliberations and are pleased they are in attendance in today.

Mr. John Greely

It is an honour to address the committee. While I am the leader of the delegation, I do not intend to speak for long. We have brought some experts with us. I am accompanied by Mr. Pat Costello, chief executive of the institute; Ms Marie Barr, chairwoman of the taxation committee, and Mr. Kieran Ryan, our taxation spokesman.

Mr. Pat Costello

We are delighted to appear before the committee.

The institute sets high standards for its members and does not condone or tolerate illegality. It was among the first of the professional bodies to establish open and independent disciplinary procedures, the first in Britain or Ireland to make continuous professional development mandatory for our members and regards maintaining the reputation of the chartered accountant qualification as a key objective. We are proud that the number of complaints registered against our members is low compared to other professions. We recently supported Government proposals to establish a new supervisory authority for our profession, as provided for in the 2003 Companies Act. This new regulatory model is one of the most advanced in Europe and viewed as a best practice model for other regimes.

The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland is only one of a number of bodies which regulates accountants and tax advisers; there are a number of other accountancy bodies: the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants, the Chartered Institute of Management Accountants, the Institute of Certified Public Accountants and a non-accountancy body, the Irish Taxation Institute. Unfortunately, however, any member of the public can hold himself or herself out as an accountant and offer tax advice without being subject to any regulation.

Our members have a clear obligation to their clients — to advise them on all the options available to them to manage their personal affairs within the law and in a commercially effective fashion. We do not countenance support for tax evasion. However, it is not our responsibility to do the work of the Revenue Commissioners. There is and there will always be a healthy tension between the work of the Revenue Commissioners and tax advisers. Without tax advisers, the work of the Revenue Commissioners would be considerably more difficult. We play an important and positive role in the operation of the tax system. Our members have played an important part in the improvements in the tax collection system of recent years.

While the publication of figures in respect of the tax paid by categories of individuals in response to a parliamentary question tabled by Deputy Burton has understandably given rise to much public discussion, it is important to remember that the individuals concerned are all operating within the tax system. This represents a significant improvement on earlier decades.

The availability of schemes of tax reliefs is a matter solely for the Oireachtas which makes its decisions on the public policy objectives. It is for the Oireachtas to decide whether tax reliefs are appropriate to drive investment from anywhere from Tallaght to Termonfeckin and to decide the impact of the availability of such schemes on the tax collection system. The outcomes currently the subject of controversy are foreseeable outcomes of decisions taken by the Oireachtas. If the Government decides to change the legislation, we will obviously comply.

While Oireachtas Members decry the impact of these schemes on the tax system, there is praise at grassroots level. The schemes have contributed to the economic rejuvenation of many parts of the country. Investors incur risks and losses in so doing. The Oireachtas designed the system of reliefs to offset these risks to encourage investment in the first place. However, this is not an argument for the schemes to remain in place permanently. For the Oireachtas to deprive itself of this policy tool of channelling investment towards policy objectives that it considers worthwhile is not a decision to be taken lightly. The institute accepts the point made by some committee members about the formulation of taxation policy. The system would work better for all sides if policy proposals were considered openly and in detail before their enactment.

Mr. Kieran Ryan

The rules on residence were changed in 1994, bringing Ireland into line with prevailing practices in other jurisdictions. Up until then, the system was highly complex, similar to that in place in the United Kingdom, but it was difficult to have any degree of certainty. These measures are regarded as an advance in the determination of a residence position. One significant measure was introduced in the area of capital gains tax, making it more difficult for people who cease to be resident in this country to make large capital disposals tax free after they depart. This measure was introduced in 2003 in section 29(a) of the taxes Act. These rules are common to the standard OECD approach to the issue.

Exemptions, reliefs and incentives break down into various categories. A better known exemption is the artistic relief, which provides for a total exemption from tax. However, liability to PRSI is included and policed separately. During the years its monitoring and the proving of an entitlement to artistic relief have tightened considerably. The burden of proof and the threshold individual taxpayers must pass are now higher. There has been much comment on stallion fees which are also tax free. Many successful enterprises have grown becuase of this tax break. Whether it is maintained is a matter of policy, but it has contributed.

Most of these incentives were introduced to stimulate activity. It is important to remember the ways things were before they were introduced, particularly in property based areas. The many derelict streets and areas in cities and towns have been rejuvenated. By definition, commercial woodlands represent a long-term investment. Returns are not seen immediately and apart from Christmas trees there is a limited market for commercial woodlands products. The period from start to finish can range from 20 to 60 years. Patents is another area in respect of which there is an exemption. The 1994 and 1996 Finance Acts tightened this area significantly.

The best known trading relief is given when a business suffers losses. These losses can be offset against subsequent profits in that trade or in the current year against profits from another trade. Following a termination of business, they can be backdated three years. That is the system of balancing results between various years. Other reliefs, apart from property reliefs, are linked to expenditure.

The film industry relief has been well covered. However, the amount an individual can invest and a company can raise is limited. It is a similar scenario with regard to the business expansion scheme relief which has been available a long time and amended upwards and downwards. However, there are limitations per investor. Business expansion scheme funds allow people to spread the risk on a portfolio basis.

The entire pensions area has been significantly overhauled in recent years. Evidence shows that there is now more activity with people following through on the changes made. There have been changes in the charitable subscriptions area where there is significant relief available. Evidence suggests that generous subscriptions have been made to qualifying charities that will result in people with accumulated wealth and large capital gains not paying income tax. There are other less well known subscription based payment type reliefs.

Capital allowances break down into two areas, those linked to geographical areas and those linked to activity levels. We all know the designated area reliefs such as those for living over the shop, designated streets, towns and seaside resorts which have been tweaked over time. The best known scheme, section 23 relief, is nice and simple. One buys a property for letting and subsequently qualifies for an allowance linked to the construction costs. Part of the profit is treated as a deduction in the year the money was spent as if it was an expense. If this creates a loss, it is offset against profits in subsequent years until it is used up. There is a ten year holding period, after which, if the property is sold, the allowance is not withdrawn. This measure has been responsible for urban and town regeneration. A similar allowance but specific to a particular sector relates to student accommodation in respect of which criteria have to be met. There is less evidence of students frantically searching for accommodation in September and October each year. Other less well known allowances are linked to car parks, hotels, hospitals, convalescent nursing homes, park and ride facilities and third level education.

Many of these allowances which gave rise to the matters now being examined by the committee have changed. For example, hotel allowances outside some BMW counties are limited to use against rental income. Previously they were available to be offset against all income and there was a restriction of up to 13 investors per project. The tendency was to seek high income earners. Those with earned income, as opposed to unearned or passive income such as rental income, would be targeted. However, from 1998 this has been less of a feature. The allowances are running out as hotel allowances only cover a period of seven years. There were other areas in which there were accelerated allowances in the first year and then reduced allowances which were offset against all income. However, these have now been restricted. An example was the IFSC and other designated area allowances.

The double rent allowance, a feature of some early designated area schemes, has also ceased. Many properties had two features, capital allowances, on the one side, to write off capital expenditure and, on the other, a double rent allowance to encourage occupiers. This relief has run out. It was a significant feature in the provision of car parks and the IFSC.

Another measure in the 2000 Finance Act imposed restrictions on part-time partners in loss-making trades and ring-fenced losses to profits in those trades rather than general income. The effect is that today in looking at tax incentives and the availability of capital allowances and other measures against earned income, they are few and far between and it is exceptional to hear about them. There are other incentives running out. Most of the property based tax incentives will end for construction after 31 July 2006. The date was extended by two years recently. From that date the annual hotel type allowance will be down to 4%. At that level the tax incentive will be marginal in the investment decision because there is a holding period of 25 years or the allowances will be withdrawn making it cumbersome and relatively ineffective. The instances of individuals sheltering earned income with tax based incentives will be declining sharply in the coming years and will become rare.

On a general note, the impetus is that individuals or corporates with a business idea or proposal initially require advice on how to structure and finance a proposal and look at its viability. Tax incentives are but one component in making a business decision. While they are not the starting point, they are part of the overall equation. Virtually all practitioners spend their time advising clients on real commercial issues, projects they have in mind to run their businesses. We do not spend our time going through the tax Acts looking for loopholes or unintended applications of the legislation. That may occasionally arise but it is not what we do. However, we will seek to maximise the taxation aspects of a transaction through the use of exemptions and will use and mark them to stimulate activity but this is done within the confines of tax law and practice, both of which can be complex. There are several complex schemes and the larger the project the more complex the scheme. A hotel or commercial property scheme will necessarily be more complex than section 23 type property acquisitions. No matter which is the case the people involved, either as promoters or investors, are taking risks. Even with tax incentives, people lose money. They can also make money. They can make money by using a tax incentive and the investment can grow but there is another side to the equation and I have seen both.

Mr. Costello

We are more than delighted to be here. It would be foolhardy not to understand why this issue is being discussed. The Oireachtas would not have put these schemes in place without wanting people to avail of them. We have helped in that process. This has led to the issues we are discussing. In recent years the Oireachtas has decided against renewing many but not all of the existing schemes. This decision will have an undetermined impact on economic activity.

Will Mr. Ryan take me through a section 23 scheme in order that we, the members of the public and the media watching understand the process? For the sake of argument, if someone invests €1 million in a section 23 scheme, he or she can get 42% back against tax in year one. Does this person have a full write-off in year one?

Mr. Ryan

That is a long way down the line because one has to find a developer who will decide if the scheme will work. From an investor's point of view, it is not that simple. There are three components in any property purchase: site cost, building cost and profit. The site cost is not allowable. The building cost and profit are divided proportionately. The portion attributable to the site is disallowed while the portion attributable to building is allowed. This allowable amount is treated as an expense in the year in which it is incurred. For example, if one made a profit of €10,000 before obtaining section 23 relief and the qualifying amount was the €1 million the Chairman mentioned, the profit for the year would be set against section 23 relief of €1 million and the resulting loss carried forward to the next year for use against profits in that year and all subsequent years until it was used. This is only available against Irish sourced rental income, in other words, it does not cover property abroad.

To help people understand, if the sum was €1 million, what would it be worth to the investor in year one? If the person concerned borrows to finance the investment and interest can be offset against this over a period of ten years, what is the tax position on rental income?

Mr. Ryan

In general terms, rental income is the starting point. If the investor, not the tenant, incurs the normal expenses — insurance, repairs and so on — one looks at the finance cost. Interest is allowable as a deduction where the money is used to buy the apartment but the capital element of the repayment is not. One then arrives at a figure for profit and in adding the profits and losses for each property gets an aggregate figure. In doing so one takes into account the qualifying amount of section 23 relief which will either reduce the profit figure or convert the figure into a loss. If one has a profit after paying interest of €400,000 and qualifying section 23 relief of €1 million, the figure of €400,000 will be reduced to nil and one will carry forward a loss of €600,000.

There may not be a straightforward answer to my question. The investor will come out at the end of the process with a property worth €1 million. How much will the Revenue Commissioners have subscribed to the taxpayer by way of depreciation initiallyandthe cost of writing off interest over the course of the period of ten years and rental income? I suspect the net cost to the taxpayer is less than the 50% of the figure of €1 million. In reality the taxpayer is subsidising the investment to the tune of €500,000.

Mr. Ryan

I would quibble with those figures.

Then Mr. Ryan can advise me.

Mr. Ryan

Interest should be regarded as an annual cost rather than as a capital reduction. It sets an annual cost against annual income which is separate from a tax based incentive. If one spends €1 million, typically the qualifying content would be somewhere in the order of 80%, depending on the value of the site. At a tax rate of 42%, it would amount to €800,000 at 42% in year one.

That would be more than €300,000.

Mr. Ryan

If one takes it over several years, one will have to discount it in terms of the value of money.

Conceivably a person who invests €1 million can get a tax benefit of approximately €300,000 in year one.

Mr. Ryan

Yes, that can happen.

Taking the figure of €1 million over a period of ten years at an average of 5%, I estimate that it is worth another €100,000 over the period of ten years at the 40% tax rate.

Mr. Ryan

Is the Chairman referring to the interest cost?

Yes. It would be €25,000 a year at 42%. Over a period of ten years this could be worth €100,000. Then there is the tax benefit in respect of the rent generated in a property of that value. The overall figure seems to be heading towards 50% of the investment being paid for by the taxpayer over a period of ten years. We are trying to get a feel for this. Like those watching, most members are not accountants. They are just trying to get an idea of what these tax incentive schemes are worth to the investor.

Mr. Ryan

The interest cost would be just about the same as repair and insurance costs. It is an annual cost. If one has to start by borrowing the money, one has to pay the cost of servicing the loan. I do not believe it should be categorised in the same way as the capital incentive.

Those are normal expenses.

Most of my questions are directed towards the Revenue Commissioners to get a better feel for this territory. The Revenue Commissioners did some work on the extent to which wealthy individuals had availed of these schemes. They looked at the top 400 earners in 1994-95 and found that 103 were paying less than 30%. In 1999-2000 the figure was 117. The Revenue Commissioners also revealed that 29 of the top 400 earners were paying no tax at all while another 46 were paying less than 20%. What staggered me was that the Revenue Commissioners had found that the loss to Revenue in respect of the 117 people paying less than 30% came to €72 million, on average €615,000 each for those involved. These top 117 were each sheltering about €1.5 million in income to achieve their tax position. At that stage the Revenue Commissioners were saying the tax changes made in the 1998 Act which had capped the opportunity to set off earned income against the various reliefs would winnow out the high numbers of those paying no tax. The more recent figures for 2001 which one would imagine would show that the 1998 provisions were biting revealed that the figure for those in the top echelon had increased to 41 with another 242 in the next echelon. It seems, therefore, that far from the provisions gradually eliminating this extraordinary phenomenon of property based tax reliefs wiping out tax liabilities, the problem is getting worse.

If the Oireachtas is to move towards limiting the capacity of wealthy individuals to end up paying no tax, we have two choices. We could have a minimum income level, with everyone required to pay at least a certain percentage in tax, whether it be 10% or 20%, or else cap the aggregate amount a person can claim in write-offs in the same way that only a certain amount can be claimed by way of a pension write-off. From Mr. Ryan's view as a practitioner, does he think it would be better for the Dáil to cap the use of schemes by an individual to an aggregate amount, or should we consider the notion of a minimum tax contribution from all?

Tax practitioners will naturally use whatever system the Oireachtas comes up with. Many of the errors made and perpetuated in maintaining property based initiatives in a greatly over-heating property market, when no incentive was needed because of the huge capital gains being made without such incentives, were the fault of the Oireachtas, not practitioners. If we are to deal with the scandal whereby some pay no tax at all because of the impact of such schemes, what is the best approach the Oireachtas can take?

Mr. Ryan

I will put the matter in context and then deal with the Deputy's question. With the purchase of the property, there is always a long lead-in time. There are a number of transitional measures. Therefore, the impact of the changes will not always be seen in the timeframe at which one is looking. Particularly in the hotels area, there was a considerable transitional period and a seven year tax write-off period. Accordingly, one will not see the impact straightaway.

Technically it is difficult enough when one is talking to individuals about to invest in something like this. They must commit to making an investment. If they are going to avail of the tax allowances, they must have a level of income sufficient to absorb the allowances for the lifetime of the investment. If one says a certain minimum percentage in tax must be paid, unless the formula is simple, it can become very difficult to make the incentive work. The danger is that one will make it impracticable.

The range of incentives available has reduced sharply. Those available against general rather than rental income are well on the way to being eliminated. Some of their features will not be seen in the future. Any scheme of allowances should be reviewed from time to time. In the residential market there were two measures which, when taken together, took a great deal of heat out of the market. They were the Bacon interest relief provisions and the withdrawal of section 23-type relief, both of which were reversed on consecutive days in recent years. Up until that point the residential market had just about stopped for a period of six to nine months. Then it took off again. There are market considerations; it is a question of judgment.

In terms of straightforward tax planning, to advise someone not to pay tax would be bad advice because at a minimum one would expect people to pay tax at the lower rate rather than just wipe it out altogether and obtain relief at the higher rate of 42%, for example. It is a matter of public policy if a further level is required. Generally, one has to look at the other side also. The economy benefits from activity in certain areas. It is common that incentives are necessary to get something moving. If it winds up that someone is paying either at a very low rate of tax and economic activity is generated in target areas, there is an overall cost benefit analysis to be entered into.

If we are to attempt to deal with the fact that some individuals are clearly abusing the system and overstaying their welcome, there are two choices. We can cap the aggregate amount that anyone can write off against income or, alternatively, one can say that no matter what schemes are being used by an individual, he or she will have to pay tax at a rate of perhaps 10% or 20%. From the representatives' point of view, is it a matter of indifference which route should be used to tackle the problem?

Ms Marie Barr

I do not think it is so much a matter of indifference to us. If one wants incentives to work, if the tax value is not sufficiently high, people will not use them. For instance, using the Deputy's example of a 20% minimum tax rate, the value of the tax allowances with the 42% top rate comes down to 22%, meaning the allowances will not be used because the benefit is not as great. That would change the commercial reality of the investment in question. In some schemes, the amount that one can invest has been capped. For example, the BES relief is €31,750 per individual per annum. The result has been that not as many companies have been able to raise as much BES money as previously since, if people may put in only a small amount, one must market the scheme much more widely to collect the money. It is not a case of our being indifferent to it. Going down either of the roads that the Deputies are considering could be self-defeating when it comes to tax incentives, since one wants to achieve a policy objective.

I welcome the ICAI delegates and thank them for making themselves available. Perhaps we might return to the information that I got from the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners that 41 people with incomes in excess of €500,000 had paid no income tax. Of those, 11 had incomes above €1 million. Do the members of the institute understand that, for someone like a hospital porter, who is paying some income tax on a relatively modest income, it is very difficult in an argument about social equity to accept that there are people in Irish society who, if they have a sufficient flow of money or tax avoidance mechanisms available to them, can so arrange their affairs that they can have a zero liability to tax?

I know the institute has very high ethical standards regarding its members' work; that is not in dispute. However, if tax is a burden that everyone in society has to bear, since we all need roads, hospitals, education and so on, does the institute not see that there is something deeply offensive in extreme examples, such as in our system, of people who manage to pay nothing? I concur with Mr. Ryan. It is certainly a long time since I worked as a chartered accountant, but I clearly remember that then many accountants would have advised clients not to tempt fate by paying nothing. There are obviously people and practitioners who aggressively use tax planning. The witnesses suggest that their own inclination is not to be too aggressive. However, quite a number of practitioners are extremely aggressive on tax planning. People have been filing returns this month, and I have heard again and again of conversations regarding people who have absolutely no tax to pay and who resent any question of their having to do so. When it comes to social cohesion, is it wise that we persist with a system that produces such extreme results?

Mr. Costello

We understand the Deputy's comments. We repeat our earlier position that this is a policy decision for the Oireachtas. All that we do is implement its policy. We are quite happy to do so, and if it changes the law, we have no difficulty in implementing it. Tax advisers and accountants can only be guided by what the law says, not by what it should say about what is fair. We do not decide the law; the Government does that. Once something is legal and within the law, as an institute we are comfortable for our members to advise clients accordingly, since their duty is to the client. The Deputy may not like my answer, but the onus is on the Government and drafters of legislation to get matters right so that the policy is implemented as they desire.

When one uses the tax system to do something other than collect tax, there will be consequences, as we said earlier. When it comes to fairness, one cannot look at the tax collected in isolation. One must consider the benefit of the incentive and measure one against the other. Earlier we mentioned that there must be a cost-benefit analysis to see how that fits together. I hope I have answered the Deputy's question to some extent.

Every year the institute and various other accounting and tax advisory bodies present very strong representations to the incumbent Minister for Finance on how the system can be made more attractive. I await the day when notions of fairness might be included in those representations. If we discussed the new and developing area of savings for pensions that the witnesses mentioned, not one person in this room would fail to say that, as part of public policy, we should encourage people to save. However, as witnesses will be aware, last year the Minister introduced an unusual additional relief on borrowing for pension funds. Down the road that will cost the public purse quite dearly in tax forgone. That is where the equity argument must be balanced.

As I said, I do not believe that there is a public representative in this room who would not agree with the principle of saving for pensions, and I certainly encourage people to do so. However, how can the witnesses argue for schemes that can only benefit those who have such large incomes that they can afford their services? That is fair enough, since people may do what they like with their money. However, the schemes themselves will effectively wipe out the bulk of those people's liability to tax, not to mention what happens when the asset that they may have invested in for the purposes of a pension fund is realised. Such schemes are to incentivise investment, but much of that does not have a great risk profile because of the history of property in this country. People are making enormous capital gains as well as gaining tax advantages.

The witnesses' third point concerned residence. There is a set of exceptionally well-off people who, with a good tax adviser, can really play ducks and drakes with the tax system. The bulk of people in the witnesses' offices pay tax like we do, but many of the people walking in and out the front door are gaining the advantages of schemes that are so aggressive and extreme that they undermine overall confidence in the fairness of the system. The institute has correctly said that it is for the Oireachtas to make the laws, but every year I read its very strong and persuasive presentations on why we should effectively abolish tax for certain categories of rich and well-off people. That is what I ultimately read into it. What is the institute's response?

Mr. Costello

I am not being arrogant. We really do not feel we are in trouble. Our job is to make the tax system work. We are proud of our members. It is not all about tax planning and doing fancy things, but really about the day to day running of the tax system. Accountants and tax advisers are not looking at loopholes but trying to make the tax system work. We can only work with what the legislators give us and we would be in trouble with our clients if we did not give them full and proper advice as to how they can arrange their affairs within the law.

The Deputy touched on policy. We would welcome, as was mentioned in one of the committee's press releases, more consultation and without being critical of anybody, that is something we could improve on. Legislation tends to be rushed through the Dáil without sufficient debate or consultation with all the interested parties and stakeholders. Perhaps we could have more open debates. I believe Mr. Ryan wants to come in on one or two points and perhaps Ms Barr might deal with one or two others.

Mr. Ryan

In terms of pensions, there is generally a tax write-off in lieu of contributions paid into a fund and if capital gains are realised, tax is not paid on it there. That is only half the story. Even before one gets to the point of taking money out, in line with the changes last year, the pension fund may be used to gear up to acquire properties. However, there are all sorts of reasonable behaviour tests within the fund that have to be met. Up to the 25% of the fund may be withdrawn tax-free, but the rest is treated as marginal income in the year in which it comes out. If 25% is withdrawn tax-free the other 75% coming out carries a marginal rate of 40%. There is an effective tax rate there of 30%. Wind-up provisions provide that if the beneficial owner of the fund dies, it goes to the family, but even after that there are still further tax charges. Of course the fund can grow in gross terms, but the money comes out with tax being deducted.

Another issue I want to deal with is residence, to give a sense of balance. Given what the Chairman has said I will not name them, but a number of individuals have been widely reported as having left this country to avoid tax. From practical experience, I know quite a number of business people have chosen to stay here and pay their taxes. To my mind the number that has agreed to stay and pay taxes far exceeds the number that go. They do it for a variety of reasons, including patriotic ones for some who feel they should make their contribution and consider a 20% level of tax to be fair. When one looks at the total quantum of tax paid since the rate decreased to that level, it is demonstrable that people actually prefer to pay taxes at that rate as against looking at avoidance techniques.

At the outset the Chairman asked for some details as regards specific investments, and I would like to follow up on that. He mentioned hotels and how they are changing and so on. Perhaps Mr. Ryan could demonstrate for slow learners, say, what would happen if I were to invest €200,000 in a hotel development. Am I correct in saying I would be entitled to a write-off at 42% against rental income of €84,000 over seven years?

Mr. Ryan

Yes, but the side cost elements of that would be excluded.

If there are a number of investors then the side cost is already taken off the top. Therefore if I put invest €200,000, do I have to contribute towards part of the side costs in that hotel?

Mr. Ryan

Yes, the Deputy would.

What are my risks, if at the end of the seven-year period or whatever, the hotel goes under and the business cannot repay me my €200,000? Is it correct to say my €200,000 has gone and I have lost €116,000?

Mr. Ryan

It could happen, but that would be an extreme example. There is normally a residual value in the property.

A decent return could be expected since we are dealing with bricks and mortar.

Mr. Ryan

It depends. There are hotels in some locations which just do not trade profitably. There have been examples of hotels where significant cost over-runs have been experienced and where the businesses were not profitable, yet the investors felt obliged to keep the properties open. If the property closes and ceases to be a hotel within seven years and is used for some other activity, the allowances are withdrawn in their entirety.

Is that before or after seven years?

Mr. Ryan

It is before, anytime during the seven years if the property is used for alternative purposes, when it just does not work as an hotel and has to be used for something else. In such cases all the allowances granted are withdrawn. There have been some well-reported examples of hotels that do not trade profitably and where investors have had to contribute more.

Section 23 relief has been in place for quite some time. There was a fear at one time as regards the section 23 apartments in parts of Dublin, in particular, that investors would pull out after the ten year period and these areas would become slumlands because of the way they were constructed and so on. Since the relief has been in place for more than ten years, has there been a mass exodus from the earlier portfolio of apartment investments and what has happened subsequently? Also, Mr. Ryan made reference to the double rent relief applicable to commercial buildings and so on. I know it is not a taxation measure, but he made no reference to the rates relief and the sliding rates from zero to 100% over a ten-year period as well as the enormous loss of revenue involved for local authorities which, apart from planning permissions, had no say whatsoever in terms of the decisions being made. Will he comment on that, please?

Mr. Ryan

I shall comment generally. I am not a property valuer, but I can just give the Deputy the benefit of what I have seen. Section 23-type relief was introduced first in the Finance Act 1981. It has existed on and off since in various manifestations. For a brief period the relief was limited to a particular type of property, but in general it has been available against Irish-sourced rental income. Virtually all the properties in question have increased in value. That was not predictable at the outset, but there has been an extraordinary period in the property sector where virtually everything has increased in value. Even what were originally considered to be bad property investment decisions have, in the main, turned to be good ones because of the overall state of the market over time.

There were design issues involved with some of the earlier apartments where, for example, there might have been a preponderance of one-bedroom or studio bedroom flats, devoid of the proper accommodation mix and a good deal of experimental layout as regards room sizes etc. The planning currently is probably much better than it was in the past. However, there are relatively few slum properties or problem apartments in the city of Dublin. I am not so familiar with properties outside Dublin, but those I see all appear to have increased significantly in value.

In terms of the rates relief the Deputy mentioned, this was a major issue for most tenants, particularly for companies paying a low rate of tax. The IFSC, for example, had companies paying tax at 10%, but the rates relief which covered 100% of the money coming out was extremely valuable. Similarly for the tenants, it was an entire relief and it meant they did not have to write a cheque. It was effectively much more valuable than the tax break itself.

To return to the Chairman's first point, if section 23 was coupled with a development where there was rates relief, the overall figure for the taxpayer rose to well an excess of the percentage mentioned by Mr. Ryan. Rates relief was substantial and, as Mr. Ryan said, was a major incentive as regards certain investments.

Mr. Ryan

It is the tenant that got that, not the developer. There are many local authorities looking at areas that have not been developed for a long time. These were frequently local authority owned sites.

We will not go down that road, with people signing orders on their last day in office. Please do not go down that road.

Mr. Ryan

Fine. The rates relief ceased and these businesses are paying rates in an area where no rates were previously obtained. There was a rates holiday but it has ended in quite a few of the schemes in Dublin and elsewhere.

I do not want to draw the witnesses into the policy area, but they have a great deal of expertise with the schemes. The incentive schemes for designated areas are to come to an end by July 2006. Do the witnesses believe any of those schemes should be extended or allowed to continue? I am sure witnesses have a bank of knowledge that may be of benefit to us in our future deliberations.

Ms Barr

It is hard to look into the future. At the moment, the work has to be done on the existing schemes by 31 July 2006. We would normally lobby to get them extended as a result of pressure from our clients. That has not arisen yet as everyone is focused on getting the building done up to 2006. We are therefore not yet in a position to give the Deputy any guidance on that. As soon as we can I have no doubt we will be in to the relevant Minister.

Ms Barr is so kind.

I want to conclude this section of the meeting. On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Greely, Mr. Costello, Mr. Ryan and Ms Barr for their practical, informative and beneficial contributions. If they so wish, they are invited to observe the rest of the meeting from the visitors' gallery.

Mr. Greely

I thank the Chairman and his committee for the courteous manner in which we were received. We are delighted to have been asked to be here. I am also delighted that we have two members of the institute on the committee to look after the public finances, which are in very capable hands.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, Mr. Frank Daly, and his officials to the meeting. The chairman is accompanied by Mr. Seán Moriarty, assistant secretary and head of large cases division, Mr. Paddy Molloy, principal officer and head of the forecasting and statistics branch, Ms Breda Ruddle, principal officer in the large cases division and Mr. Paddy O'Shaughnessy, principal officer and liaison officer to Oireachtas committees. I thank everyone for attending. I also thank the committee staff for the very extensive briefing note we received prior to the today's meeting.

While the comments of members are protected by parliamentary privilege, those of the visitors are not so protected. Members are reminded that they should not comment on, criticise and make charges against a person outside the committee or the Houses. The committee appreciates that it is not the function of the chairman and his officials to comment on the merits of Government policy. The delegation is here to elucidate factual matters relating to background operation costs and so on, regarding the schemes and rules we are examining. I call on Mr. Daly to proceed.

Mr. Frank Daly

I will use my opening statement to elaborate a little on some aspects of the subject matter that may be of particular interest to the committee. I will speak first on the role and effect of investment incentive tax relief. There is little doubt that tax incentives, when properly focused, are considered by Government to be an important tool in their ability to stimulate investment in areas of the economy where such investment is deemed necessary. This tool works because a common instinct of taxpayers is to seek to reduce their tax liabilities. It is easy to understand this instinct. Governments worldwide have sought to harness it so that it is productively directed towards improving the levels of investment in under-developed and under-resourced areas of their economies and societies. The underlying economic theory is that such incentives increase the after-tax return on investments, which although desirable and valuable from a broader societal perspective, would be unattractive to individual investors without the tax incentive. Decisions in this area therefore are essentially economic and socio-political, rather than specifically inherent to the operation of the tax system.

The use of tax incentives in Ireland to encourage particular types of activities or to channel investment in a particular direction has been a feature of our taxation system under successive Governments since the 1950s. In general, availability of most of these incentives has led to economic activity that otherwise either would not have occurred at all, or would not have occurred at the same pace, or would not have occurred in the desired areas and sectors.

In the early days the general approach was focused on income exemption. The reliefs generally provided for the exemption of income from a particular source such as export sales relief and patent income. Some of these were very successful and few will argue about the effectiveness of export sales relief in the modernisation of Irish industry during the 1960s and 1970s. Over time the income exemption approach to tax relief evolved and was joined by the investment-based approach. Initially these investment-based reliefs were merely the bringing forward of available allowances and reliefs for capital expenditure on industrial buildings, plant and machinery and hotels. Most accountants would assert that these reliefs were no more than an integral part of the cost of the economic activity of the business.

In the early 1980s the first relief was introduced which was based on a deduction for capital expenditure that otherwise would not be allowable. This was done in a manner that resulted in no claw-back if the asset was held for a shorter period than its expected useful life. This was called section 23 relief and it was introduced at a time when the building trade was in a slump. At the same time, a first time buyers' grant was introduced to encourage construction of new houses and apartments. There was a dramatic turnaround in the house building industry that is generally acknowledged as having a positive correlation with the introduction of these two provisions.

Other property-based incentives have been introduced since and reliefs and incentives in Ireland now take a number of forms and have different, and sometimes numerous, objectives. I have given the committee a listing of the main reliefs and incentives currently available as well as the costs and the numbers availing of these reliefs where they are available. I emphasise that the range of reliefs is such that they are of benefit to a very wide spectrum of taxpayers. The major reliefs include exemption of child benefit from income tax; capital allowances, the bulk of which are normal business capital allowances in lieu of depreciation; employee and employer pension costs reliefs, which are very widely availed of; exemption from capital gains on the sale of one's principal private residence; special savings investment accounts, which are availed of by more than one million taxpayers; mortgage interest relief; and medical insurance and health expenses relief.

I have also briefed the committee on the reasons many reliefs and incentives are not currently costed and I will expand on this. First, I acknowledge that tax reliefs and incentives represent a significant overall cost to the Exchequer and, of course, they narrow the tax base. It is, therefore, essential that they be subject to ongoing review and the availability of figures for the tax cost of these reliefs is one essential ingredient for such reviews. The tax costs of many reliefs, however, have always been difficult to determine accurately due mainly to the absence of detailed and specific information. The current availability of cost and other information on individual schemes varies considerably and it is ascertained in a number of ways, either through tax returns, through the separate claims mechanisms used or through estimation from data available from other, sometimes non-Revenue, sources. Even so, there are many areas where information is not available and where we acknowledge it is past time it should be. Prime examples are the pensions area and the area of capital allowances.

What are we doing in response to this? As outlined in the written brief to the committee, Revenue and the Department of Finance have been working closely together recently to investigate information and data capture issues with a view to improving data quality and transparency. We are, however, trying to do this without overburdening compliant taxpayers and with minimal impact on Revenue's ongoing strategy to keep compliance costs as low as possible and to simplify forms procedures and regulations. We are, therefore, introducing a number of changes to tax returns which will yield additional information regarding the tax costs of various reliefs and incentives and also relief in regard to pensions. The additional information will be first captured in 2004 tax returns which become due late in 2005. Preliminary analysis for some categories will become available in early 2006.

I have provided the committee with a full listing of approximately 25 reliefs in respect of which we will collect additional information. This does not cover every possible relief but we have decided to focus on those tax expenditures for which the availability of cost information would make a contribution to evaluation and policy making that would justify the additional burden of collecting the information. We will continue to keep this matter under review. It is the view of Revenue that as a matter of general policy any new relief or incentive schemes should require that the credit or amount be separately identified by the claimant. It is also a fact that ongoing IT developments in Revenue will facilitate greater data capture in future without significant added burden on taxpayers. Despite our best efforts, this means that tax forms will necessarily be longer and I expect some complaints about this. Where the administrative burden on business is increased, the committee may also receive such complaints.

As there has been considerable comment on property based capital allowances I will refer for the committee's information to two aspects of those allowances, namely restrictions which have been applied and termination dates. On restrictions, the Finance Act 1998 imposed restrictions on the set-off of excess capital allowances by passive individual investors, generally lessors, against income other than rental income. A passive individual investor is now only entitled to set off excess capital allowances of €31,750 against his or her non-rental income. This restriction applies to all capital allowances due on construction or refurbishment expenditure on industrial and commercial properties excluding hotels, holiday camps and holiday cottages. The same Finance Act also restricted the set-off of excess capital allowances available to passive individual investors in certain hotels, apart from those in north-west counties, and holiday camps. A passive individual investor is only allowed set excess capital allowances against other rental income, that is, there is no set-off against non-rental income.

While these restrictions were introduced in 1998, they only apply, subject to the transitional provisions, to construction or refurbishment expenditure incurred after 3 December 1997. Capital allowances due in respect of expenditure before that date or that come within the transitional provisions are not subject to these restrictions. Therefore, unrestricted capital allowances are still available in respect of qualifying expenditure. The Finance Act 1992 restricted the set-off of capital allowances available in respect of expenditure on holiday cottages. Subject to certain transitional provisions the restrictions applied to expenditure incurred after 24 April 1992. It is important to note that many investors have substantial rental income and are still in a position to make substantial use of the capital allowances available.

On the termination dates of schemes, most of the current incentive area schemes are due to finish on 31 December 2004 subject to transitional provisions that extend that date to 31 July 2006. The termination dates relate to the date by which expenditure must be incurred on a property in order to qualify for capital allowances. Therefore, while capital allowances will not be due in respect of expenditure incurred after the termination dates they will continue to be due in respect of expenditure incurred prior to those dates. For example, if a project has met the transitional provisions so that the qualifying period is 31 July 2006, if qualifying expenditure of €10 million was incurred before 31 July 2006 and if the property is brought into use before the end of the tax year 2006, allowances could continue to be claimed as follows. In 2006, an initial allowance of 50% of the €10 million, which is €5 million, could be claimed, although I realise certain nuances surround this issue as was clear from the earlier discussion on what exactly is allowable from the €10 million. For the following 12 years, annual allowances of 4% per annum would also be available, with the balance available in the 13th year.

I will move on to the matter of residence. I have given the committee a detailed briefing on the somewhat complex set of rules that apply to residency and domicile for tax purposes. In this statement I have nothing more to add except to clarify that there is no such thing as a Revenue list of Irish citizens who are tax exiles. Tax returns did not historically request data on citizenship as the question of whether a person is an Irish citizen has no general relevance for tax purposes. There are considerable numbers of Irish citizens living abroad who make tax returns to Revenue, for example, in respect of income earned here on the rental of houses etc. However, Revenue has a general entitlement to make all relevant inquiries in regard to any tax return or statement made to it and, where appropriate, to carry out an audit to verify the accuracy of the return or statement. This applies in exactly the same way to returns or statements made by people claiming to be non-resident as it does for all other taxpayers.

All Revenue's interventions, whether they be audit or special compliance inquiries, are made on the basis of indicators of risk. The status of claims to non-residence is included in risk profiling and this is an area to which we pay special attention. We have access to a variety of sources which can assist us if we deem it necessary to make verification checks on claims to non-residency for any individual or any particular period of time. However, there are no indications at this time that Irish domiciled persons who claim non-residence are unable to demonstrate that they were outside the State for the requisite 183 days. Awareness of Revenue's general interest and audit programme in this area, together with the financial consequences of non-compliance, seems to motivate these individuals to keep their residence patterns within the rules.

There has been much comment in recent days about information provided in response to a parliamentary question which indicated that a small number of people — 11 in all — with gross incomes exceeding €1 million had no net liability to tax in the tax year 2001. It was also indicated that of those in the PAYE sector who earned €100,000 or more, less than 0.5% had a nil net income tax liability, less than 0.5% had a net liability at the standard or marginal relief rates and over 99% had a liability at the higher rate. The comparable figures for the self employed were 2.1% with a net nil liability, 1.2% with a net standard rate liability while 96.7% had a liability at the higher rate.

It may be useful to indicate that the 11 ended up, quite legally, paying no tax primarily through extensive use of property based capital allowances. However, other factors included ordinary trading losses or business losses and charitable donations.

The committee is aware that in 1997 and again in 2002, the Revenue Commissioners conducted studies of the effective tax rates of the top 400 earners, based on the tax years 1993-94 and 1994-95, the 1997 study, and the tax year 1999-2000, the 2002 study. We are in the process of completing a similar study based on the tax year 2001. The 2002 study indicated that, between tax years 1994-95 and 1999-2000, there had been an increase in the effective tax rate of high earners. While the current study is not yet complete, it would appear that this trend has continued. This indicates that measures such as the capping in 1998 of capital allowances available to passive investors are gradually having the desired effect. We expect that the study will be completed shortly and presented to the Minister for Finance. The earlier studies were placed in the Oireachtas Library.

The general matters under discussion here today, including the use of reliefs and incentives, residency for tax purposes and effective rates of tax for high earners, are all matters in which the Revenue Commissioners take a keen interest as part of our responsibility for tax administration and, in particular, tax compliance. In restructuring our organisation over recent years, we have had a particular focus on more effective policing of these areas. Many, though not all, of the individuals or entities whose tax affairs are entwined with such allowances or exemptions now fall within the remit of our large cases division and I have given the committee a detailed briefing on the approach adopted by that division in doing its work.

In recent years, the Revenue Commissioners have put significant effort into building a tax-compliant culture in this country. We have made progress but there is still some way to go. It is our business to apply the law effectively and fairly. Any perception to the contrary makes some compliant taxpayers resentful at best or at worst encourages them to consider evasion. No doubt, similar considerations apply to the structure of the tax system itself and the validity of reliefs.

I have a few observations. Mr. Daly mentioned the termination dates of schemes, many of which have been extended to July 2006. He made it clear, however, that there will be a 4% allowance for 13 years thereafter. It will really be 2019, therefore, before these schemes finally end. There is a perception in the media that many of these schemes are being closed off in 2006. The reality is that new entrants to the schemes will be closed off in 2006, but those who take part before that year can avail of them until 2019. Is this correct?

Mr. Daly

The Chairman is generally correct. There will be a wash-through effect for seven, 12 or 13 years, depending on the scheme, for those people who have invested before the termination date.

With regard to the lack of information, I find it hard to understand the Revenue Commissioners' reference to the "additional burden" of collecting information. The obtaining of information should not be treated as a burdensome task, as if to say that we are troubling people. I understand Mr. Daly's point that forms 11 and 12 may be more complicated if the Revenue Commissioners seek to capture all this information. I suggest, however, that form 11 could be kept very simple. There should be a second, accompanying form for those who wish to claim any of these reliefs, allowances, exemptions or deductions. Some 95% of taxpayers will never have to consider this extra form. Form 11 should not be made more complicated for 100% of taxpayers to capture information which is only relevant for 5%. People should be able to indicate on form 11 whether they claim any of these reliefs. If they do they should then complete the supplementary form. This represents a simple solution to the problem. I become concerned when the Revenue Commissioners speak of forms becoming more complicated. Is the approach I have suggested too simplistic?

Mr. Daly

Not at all. In some ways we are perhaps a little ahead of the Chairman.

Mr. Daly

I have brought a mock-up of the form for 2004. It is perhaps a half-way house with regard to the extra 20 or 25 reliefs which we are hoping to capture in that they are on the last page. It is not a separate form but the additional information is somewhat separate.

Are the Revenue Commissioners asking for the amounts people are claiming on those forms?

Mr. Daly

Yes, in respect of some 25 additional items of information. Without being presumptuous, these are the schemes in which the committee is interested, including the schemes for urban renewal, town renewal, rural renewal, park and ride facilities, student accommodation, multi-storey car parks holiday cottages, hotels, nursing homes, houses for the elderly and infirm, convalescent homes, qualifying private hospitals, qualifying sports injury clinics and so on. There is a separate information section for each of these schemes.

We are moving rapidly into the era of electronic filing. From a modest beginning two years ago when just 9% of people filed electronically, some 40% did so last year. Although the end date is not until next week, more than 100,000 have filed electronically this year, which will bring the percentage to well in excess of 50%. An increased level of electronic filing reduces the burden of information-gathering for everybody.

I am curious about the information on the stallion stud fee exemption in the briefing notes which the Revenue Commissioners sent to the committee in advance of today's meeting. It is stated that this exemption from income tax applies in respect of stallions ordinarily kept in the State and then, in the second section, that it applies to stallions ordinarily kept outside the State. Is it the case that tax relief is given in respect of stallions which are not in the country?

Mr. Daly

The relevant section reads,"income arising to certain part-owners of a stallion which is ordinarily kept on land outside the State in the sales of services of mares". I am afraid I do not understand this reference either.

Very good. Mr. Daly cannot blame me for asking about that.

Mr. Daly

I understand the Deputy's concern. I am sure there is a qualification somewhere. I will clarify this for him.

I compliment Mr. Daly on the useful and comprehensive document which he has presented to the committee. I will return to the question which I put to the practitioners. The documents state that provisional returns from the Revenue Commissioners' new study of the top 400 earners suggest that the situation is improving in that regard. In the tax year 1999-2000, 29 of the top 400 paid no tax. The recent reply to a parliamentary question indicated that 41 people now pay no tax, not from the top 400 but from those people who earn more than €500,000 per annum. If the noose is tightening as a result of the changes made in 1998, then it is doing so extraordinarily slowly.

The Revenue Commissioners' 2000 study indicated that the 117 highest-earning individuals were sheltering as much as €1.5 million each under the various schemes, both property-based and those not based on property. Does Mr. Daly believe that the changes made in 1998 have dealt with the issue, leaving aside the fact that there is a long fade-out? Has the combination of the 1998 changes and the decision to eliminate the property reliefs introduced from 1996 onwards effectively cracked the scandal from the public's point of view of very high-income earners reducing their income to zero or close to zero for tax purposes? If the Revenue Commissioners do not believe the problem is solved, what is their view of the notion of using legislative measures to cap the amount of relief in individual claims, or the alternative idea of obliging everybody to pay a certain percentage of their income in tax? These seem to be rival ways of addressing the issue if it remains a problem.

The other issue is the way these measures are assessed in terms of value for money. In an economy close to full employment with an overheating property market, it is easy with hindsight to say many of them are bizarre and irrelevant at this stage. Is Mr. Daly satisfied a process is in place between the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Finance to ensure value for money with regard to tax expenditures? If the Department of Health wants to spend money on a hospital, it must run the gauntlet of an Estimate and convince the Minister for Finance the money is justified. There is a real battle for resources. It seems there is no battle in respect of many of these requests. They glide through without any scrutiny. Can Mr. Daly comment on how the Oireachtas might establish a better system of scrutiny?

When the Finance Bill is published, we are deluged with proposals for changes without any attempt to examine what is already in place. Some new proposals eliminate reliefs and some create new reliefs. This committee is neither equipped nor capable of conducting a system of scrutiny if required to do so.

On the rules of residency, it has been presented to me that Ireland has less onerous rules than those which generally prevail. This is different from what was said by the practitioners. If one bed and breakfasts outside the State, one is deemed absent. If one lives in Newry, one need never be resident. Are our rules less onerous, or are they are on a par with the rest of Europe?

The Revenue Commissioners will examine the issue of pensions. A report by Mr. Gerry Hughes of the ESRI stated the top quintile of earners received 80% to 90%, or even more, of pension relief. Far from being a scheme to diffuse the pensions timebomb for the majority of people, it seems that an extraordinarily narrow range of people benefit. That report shocked me. Will that be the next tax scandal? Mr. Hughes must have received these figures from the Revenue Commissioners. I know Mr. Daly cannot comment on it. However, it seems data exist to suggest this is a problem.

We are not only concerned about top earners. Do the Revenue Commissioners track the extent to which people eligible for tax reliefs avail of them? I was amazed the commissioners are only giving €19 million tax relief to private tenancies, of which 90,000 will benefit. That seems far below the number of rented accommodations. A total of €41 million will be given in health expenses relief. There are approximately 106,000 claimants, which seems an extremely low take-up. Less than €500,000 relief is being given to those who take care of incapacitated people, and only 500 of those carers are taking advantage of this. Only 108,000 have availed of the tax relief for home carers.

It seems that unless one is cute enough and fills out forms every year, one is unlikely to receive these reliefs. The integrity of the Exchequer's intake of money must be protected, but it seems a number of people do not receive what they are due in tax relief. Do the commissioners have a strategy to reach out to these people and ensure they get their due?

Could the cost-effectiveness of the residential relief not be much better? If somebody receives relief, the landlord can be tracked. It would be cost-effective to make this relief more attractive and widely known. Most people do not seem aware of it. The cost to the Revenue is small.

The hottest information is with regard to 2001, which is a remote year. Most people are on a current year pay basis. They must make their 2003 returns by October. Is there a long pipeline which can be shortened?

Mr. Daly

Deputy Bruton asked about the 1998 capping and whether it is having an effect. I will preface my remarks by saying many of his questions take me close to Government policy, so I must be careful. The capping is having an effect, but it is gradual. Anybody who thinks it will deal quickly with abolition is making a wrong assumption.

Deputy Bruton also asked about a minimum tax rate or another type of approach. That is a matter for the Oireachtas. There has been much talk of a minimum tax rate for high earners. One can see advantages in this. It would help ensure everybody pays a reasonable amount of tax and would probably not interfere unduly with incentive schemes provided the rate of tax were carefully chosen. Ms Barr commented on the matter earlier.

However, implementation requires complex legislation. The Revenue has an aversion to complex legislation because we have a general policy of trying to simplify the tax code and system. Complexity primarily derives from trying to define income for the purposes of applying a minimum rate of tax income. Normal business reliefs and allowances would be excluded. We would not want these to be trapped in any way because normal losses and expenses and pension payments must be treated the same. We have a high rate of 42%. I presume a minimum rate would be 20%. Would that become the target rate for many people?

More importantly, is there a perception of a 20% rate of tax for one strata of society? Almost by definition, not everybody could aspire to that because to avail of incentives you either need to have discretionary income or the ability to borrow money. When we did a high earner survey in 2002, in the aggregate almost 80% of individuals were paying tax at the high rate. What would we do to that figure? Would it be dragged down? The minimum tax rate is an attractive quick solution. However, I would be loath to go down that road without much study.

The United States has had a minimum tax rate since 1969. It started because Congress learnt that year that 155 taxpayers with gross incomes of $200,000 paid no federal income tax. They were where we are now. Over the years it has changed. I do not want to mislead the committee. It is not the simplistic minimum tax rate that we are talking about here.

Last December the national taxpayer advocate, a type of ombudsman for taxpayers and an employee of the Inland Revenue Service but with a direct line to Congress, made a report to Congress. If the Chairman will indulge me I will read from it. In her report to Congress for 2003, the national taxpayer advocate stated that the report identified and discussed 20 of the most serious problems encountered by taxpayers. She continued that the problem that she believed required the most immediate and thorough response was the growing reach of the individual alternative minimum tax. She stated that this problem was looming over all: taxpayers, Congress and the IRS. She further stated that in the years to come, the IRS would be faced with applying resources to making adjustments to the returns of increasing numbers of taxpayers who were unaware that they too had won the AMT lottery, for that is how the AMT appeared to function — randomly and no longer with any logical basis and sound tax administration or any connection with its original purpose of taxing the very wealthy who escape taxation. She said that Congress must address the AMT before it bogged down tax administration and increased taxpayers' cynicism to such a level that overall tax compliance declined. If a minimum tax rate was being considered, one would want to talk to people in this area in the United States and to hear about their experience.

I could make everybody's eyes in this room glaze over by reading out a detailed note on how one determines one's minimum tax liability in the United States. The mind boggles at the complexity of it. I imagine my accounting friends in the back row would be delighted with it because it would be manna from heaven for them. In the overall sense, the problem is not that people are shrinking the tax rate. What people are doing with allowances is shrinking the tax base. If the committee wants my opinion, that is probably where I would focus my efforts. I do not want to go beyond that because I have probably crossed the line into policy matters.

The Deputy asked about assessments of schemes and incentives and whether there is a process in place between Revenue and Finance. There is, in effect, because every year these schemes come up for review by the tax strategy group. I would not be naive enough to claim that every scheme gets an intensive or an in-depth review. Part of the problem, as I mentioned, is that we do not have the costs in regard to the more significant ones or the ones we would want to review. There is a commitment to do that. The fact that we are embarking on this process of collecting costs shows that commitment.

Our rules of residency, generally speaking, and I am open to correction on this, are pretty much in line with those of member states of the EU and those of OECD countries. I do not believe they are any less onerous, although whether they are right is another matter, but I do not believe they are very much out of line with those applying in those other countries. I will return to the pensions questions later because I am not sure I picked it up properly.

On the question of whether we track the extent to which people eligible for tax relief get such relief, I agree with the Deputy that the figures are very variable. They are the 2001 figures in most cases and I have noticed some of them can be volatile from year to year. There can be quite a lot in one year and then for some reason the figure can drop in another year. If members read yesterday's newspapers, they may have seen Revenue's advertisement of the availability of tax relief from maintaining people in nursing homes. Perhaps in the context of the current discussions on the health service, it is a relief that probably is not as widely known or perhaps as widely taken up as it should be. We have already thought of a policy whereby we would advertise the availability of all these reliefs over a period to bring them to people's attention. In other words, it would be a public awareness campaign. That would have to be done over time. Members can take it that the relief in respect of nursing homes was one of the first of these and we will draw it to people's attention. The Deputyhinted that I might have some sensitivity in this respect in that if people claimed everything to which they were entitled, tax revenues might reduce. All I can say on that is that Revenue has had philosophy for years of collecting not a penny more or not a penny less from those due to pay it and making sure that everybody gets his or her entitlements.

I agree with what the two Deputies said about tenant relief. There is a dividend for us as an organisation interested in compliance in making sure that is claimed. The Deputies were correct in saying that we can track this back to the landlord and we do that in the system.

That is Revenue's decision. Should the relief not be enhanced because the relief is only €4 a week? If it were more attractive, the tenant would pursue it much more rigorously.

Mr. Daly

I will leave that in the Deputy's hands on his side of the table. The year 2001 is quite remote now. We are trying to be as accurate as we possibly can. We could do some modelling on the 2001 or 2000 figures in advance of the returns that come in from taxpayers, but the reality is that unless we have the returns, we do not know how wrong the model will be. Making forecasts in the tax system without accurate base statistics is dodgy. We have a policy that we try to have as close to 90% of returns in the machine, as it were, before we do the modelling. It is something that my colleagues on the statistics side have been actively examining over the past year of so to see if we can advance it. I would not disagree with the Deputy on that. The year 2001 is history at this stage. It was also a short tax year, which brings its own complications. The Deputy can take it that it is our objective to speed it up but it is not easy. We have a high compliance rate with tax returns. We like to get around 90% of returns in before we start the model.

On the question of pensions, I am not sure I quite understood Deputy Richard Bruton's point.

A suggestion contained in material belonging to the ESRI — I add I only saw a slide relating to this and did not attend a discussion on it — is that if one had showed the amount of pension relief obtained by quintile across the income distribution, the last quintile had virtually everything. The sum across the other four quintiles was minute by comparison to the last quintile. We all believe that the State should give generous tax relief and the former Minister went as far as giving 30% tax relief to people over a certain age.

Mr. Daly

People over the age of 50.

The intention was that the distribution of this valuable asset from the State would be some way even, but it does not appear to be any way even.

Mr. Daly

The Deputy is probably right as to where it is positioned. I am not familiar with the study to which he referred. All I can say in general is that the take up on that relief is quite poor. Perhaps it is more attractive to a certain strata of society.

It is capped at €250,000.

Mr. Daly

It is capped at €254,000 — that is the income. There is a 30% tax relief for people over the age of 50 and it goes down from there. I think the figures are in the brief.

We will await Revenue's report.

Mr. Daly

I do not have any more information on that.

I wish to follow up on the point Mr. Daly made regarding the idea of an effective tax rate and whether it is the standard rate. He quoted the experience in the USA and said that 30 years on the people in this area there consider there is a problem with that. If we brought in some measure in that area, we would hope to review it in the following 30 years. The fact that a measure causes a problem after 30 years does not mean it should not have been introduced in the first instance. I gather from what you said that many of these reliefs and allowances would have washed through the system and prevented people from getting down to a lower level of tax in any event. There is the tax rate of 42% and the standard rate of 20%. Some people manage to reduce to 0% and that option was available for most people but, as you said, 99% of people did not exercise it. People currently have the option of a zero rate.

Mr. Daly

They have.

Some 99% of people are not availing of it. I do not understand why there would be a sudden rush to a 20% rate if the same people are not rushing to reduce to a 0% rate. I do not disagree in terms of the complications that would be involved.

Mr. Daly

I want to make it clear that it is a matter of tax policy. All I am saying is that these are issues that might be considered if the committee debates a minimum tax rate or some additional capping or restructuring, which is presumably the alternative.

I find the Chairman's comments interesting.

In regard to Mr. Daly's comments on the tax strategy group, in the budget debate in the Dáil Chamber two years ago, the former Minister for Finance acknowledged that the scheme relating to private hospitals he proposed to introduce that year was on foot of a letter from a medical practitioner in his constituency. Mr. Daly stated there are exhaustive discussions in the tax strategy group about certain provisions of the Finance Bill. With no disrespect intended, I do not believe that is true. Last year, for instance, there was an extension, expansion and enhancement of the hotel scheme, about which I asked the former Minister. Subsequently, a civil servant obtained for me a record of one telephone call from the Hotels Federation and a five-line letter from it, as a result of which the former Minister made up his mind regarding that scheme. We are representing members of the public, rich, poor and those who are middle of the road. Representatives of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul will appear before the committee on Monday, representatives of CORI appeared before it last month and representatives of the Combat Poverty Agency have appeared before it. They have all made earnest and worthy comments about how the tax system might be made more fair, but a five-line letter seems to count for more.

It is beneficial that Mr. Daly is here today. There should be much more of this type of exchange because members of the tax strategy group constitute the exalted and are among those in the higher echelons of the public service. The tax strategy group does not often have the benefit of hearing from a GP in the former Minister's constituency who can pop a letter in the post requesting private hospital or private clinic tax relief. That point needs to be made. We do not live in a perfect world.

I have a number of questions which I typed out and will make available. I will summarise them because I would like answers. In Table 1 in Appendix 1, some 269,300 taxpayers or firms, or a mixture of both, are listed who benefit from capital allowances. Will Mr. Daly indicate, either now or at some point in the future, if Revenue profiles the individuals or firms who benefit from these. If we are to have a grown-up debate about the value of various features of the tax system, we as public representatives must be in a position to be able to discriminate between incentives that genuinely benefit certain categories of people and activities and incentives which, as Deputy Richard Bruton said, are loaded in favour of the top 25% quintile. That is where the inherent unfairness arises. There is no information on the €1.92 billion cost of capital allowances in the table in Appendix 1. There are also the incentives for schemes, including those for town renewal and multi-storey car parks, which are included in the Estimates. If we as public representatives are to make some sense of this complex report, it is essential that we have such information. We should also have information on year by year comparisons. I suggest that Revenue's next statistical report should include percentages. By and large the statistical report contains only flat figures and most of members here do not have the resources to get people to do the calculations; we have to do them ourselves. If the information is computerised, it should be easy to programme it to also calculate percentages.

I wish to refer to Deputy Richard Bruton's comment about most of this information relating to 2001. This is an economy. Can one imagine a business making its business decisions based on information from 2001? A statement in Appendix 3, which covers pages one and two, states it will be October 2005 before the new form is introduced which will capture the information and that information will not be available until some time in 2006. Therefore, from the point of view of making tax policy, information will not become available in terms of guiding decision-making until 2007, unless in the meantime Revenue can supply us with some kind of profile information on how the schemes operate. The year 2007 is a long time to have to wait for such information.

My next question relates to the large cases division, which is covered in the last appendix. I do not have a problem with people who become ordinarily non-resident as a result of taking a job in another jurisdiction and passing to and from this and other jurisdictions. They may incur small tax advantages or small tax losses. That is not of concern to legislators, but what is of concern is the number of people using non-residency as part of a tax avoidance strategy or mechanism. It is a legitimate question for members of this committee to ask the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners if he has an estimate of the number of people using non-residency as part of a tax avoidance mechanism, particularly when some of those people are very high net worth individuals who seem to maintain extensive properties and residencies in this State and to be here for all sorts of functions. In Mr. Daly's example on non-residency on page ten of Appendix A, he points to the so-called Cinderella rule in the table, namely, if a person has left by midnight that does not count as a day. What would be wrong with revising the rules to remove the Cinderella rule? For people with a jet waiting on the tarmac, effectively they can be here for a large number of days in the year. The non-residency rules were passed a long time ago when travel was different. If people maintain residences in Ireland, why are they not construed as being domiciled here for tax purposes, specifically in regard to their worldwide income?

The last appendix deals with high wealth individuals covered by the large cases division, people with wealth in excess of €50 million. What type of risk would the Revenue Commissioners identify in regard to tax avoidance and the excessive use of incentives? The chairman made a number of speeches last year about over-aggressive tax planning in which he seemed to imply he took a dim view of certain tax advisers who were, to use his term, "overly aggressive", perhaps bringing us back to the notion that people should pay a fair amount of tax. Have any cases arisen to date and, if so, how many? Does Mr. Daly, as chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, have an estimate of the amount of tax avoided through these mechanisms and through this use of aggressive tax planning? Do the Revenue Commissioners use information available from other sections of Revenue on, for instance, the sale or purchase of luxury items such as yachts or top of the range cars? If so, is this information matched against the reported income for tax purposes of individuals who enjoy the use of such items? My colleague, Deputy Paul McGrath, asked a question about incomes and ranges of income last week. One reads in the gossip pages of people with luxury lifestyles, and I confess to reading the odd issue of VIP when I get my hair done.

The Deputy pays dearly for that magazine.

Absolutely. One observes people enjoying high levels of lifestyle, and good luck to them. We all celebrate their good fortune. In an answer I received to a request for information relating to 2001, I learnt that there were just more than 10,000 PAYE taxpayers and more than 9,000 self-employed people reported as having an income of more than €120,000. Deputy Paul McGrath was given similar information in a reply he received last week. The number of people reporting high incomes seems to be relatively small. When one reads the celebrity gossip pages, the number of people enjoying top of the range everything seems to be much higher than suggested in Revenue's statistics. Does Mr. Daly take such information into account?

Mr. Daly

It is an awful pity I did not get this list before I came here, as I might have been able to give the Deputy much more information.

I wish to correct a point. I do not think I said that the tax strategy group did exhaustive assessments. I pointed out the absence of costings, but "exhaustive" is not the term I would use.

I cannot give the Deputy answers to all the questions she raised but I can run through them fairly quickly if she wishes.

Mr. Daly

With regard the 269,300 beneficiaries of capital allowances, it might be no harm, particularly in light of considerable comment today about €8.5 billion in tax reliefs or incentives being available to the rich, to say that I presume that figure is the aggregate of all the estimated costs in Appendix 1. That includes such areas as child benefit, mortgage interest reliefs, pension contributions, capital gains tax exemption on principal private residences and SSIAs. Those are not breaks that are exclusively available to the rich by any means. It important to point that out.

The capital allowances figure of €1.9 billion in 2001 includes ordinary business relief and losses. It is important we realise that. Although we do not have hard figures, our estimation is that approximately 77% of that figure is probably accounted for by losses on plant and machinery. These are not property-based, individual passive investor schemes we are talking about. I am speaking in the absence of hard figures which we will not have until 2006, to which I will return later. One could disaggregate that figure on the basis of some estimation we have and say that, within that, there is probably something less than €200 million which is attributable to these type of investor schemes. I wanted to put that in context.

I do not have a profile of the 269,300 beneficiaries at this stage, nor do I know how difficult it would be to obtain that. As to the level of take-up of individual schemes such as holiday camps, park and ride facilities etc. that is the same question. I cannot give those figures because I do not have the individual costings but I will be able to calculate them in a few years' time.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report on a study of 400 individuals two years ago suggested a cost for these schemes of approximately €70 million.

Mr. Daly

He got the figures from us. That information is contained in our high earners report. It gives a breakdown of estimated figures between roughly——

Mr. Daly said the amount is €200 million and he referred to 77%. That would leave 23% for schemes, which would be about €400 million. Is it likely that only about 1,000 people are taking the bulk of this money?

Mr. Daly

I could not say that. The 400 top earners would be taking quite a bit of it. I do not know from where the figure of 1,000 comes.

I am extrapolating.

Revenue's study showed that 117 of these individuals took €72 million in 1999-2000.

Mr. Daly

It could be a relatively small number of people, depending on what one means by "relatively"; it could be 1,000 or 2,000 people. I do not have the figure and it would be wrong to conclude that it was 1,000 people in the absence of analysis. We can try to do some analysis and I would prefer to give figures on that basis rather than to speculate.

As to why the information available on capital allowances is so out of date and the most recent year for which costings are available is 2001, I have already answered that in respect of Deputy Richard Bruton's question. It will take some time to address this. Legislation was required initially in a number of areas, particularly in the area of pensions. We could not simply go out and demand information. All 2004 tax returns will require this additional information in regard to the property schemes, pensions, the 25 individual ones I mentioned earlier and tax reliefs in respect of stallion fees and commercial woodlands. In the case of the self-employed, those tax returns are not due until 31 October 2005, in the case of corporates they are due some time in 2005 depending on when the accounting year ends for the individual company, and in the case of PAYE taxpayers, they are not due until 2005. However, PAYE taxpayers are probably not a huge factor because if one has a non-PAYE income of more than €3,500 or something like that, one moves into self-assessment, so they will be caught.

It is for this reason we will not have information available until towards the end of 2005. We have to wait until we have a reasonable volume of returns in, otherwise we would make assumptions or reach conclusions probably based on inadequate information. However, there is some light on the horizon. Electronic filing enables subsequent processing to be done at an enormously faster rate. Towards the end of 2005 as soon as we receive these forms, we will start processing them. We will have information available as early as possible in 2006. This is the stage we are at and I cannot advance matters any more than that. This requirement is included in the 2004 tax return forms that are going out.

With regard to the Deputy's question on the large cases divisions and non-residents, what she is talking about is essentially a revision of the rules. However, the rules are not made by me. The rules are made by the Oireachtas. We talk about the Cinderella clause. That is what is in the law and Revenue can only apply the law. I said in my opening statement that we had no evidence that people were breaking that law. It is a different question as to whether they are staying here up to one minute to midnight and leaving the country but the law is the law. I can only apply it.

A total of 250 high-wealth individuals are being dealt with in the large cases division. We take cognisance of people who have wealth in excess of €50 million. Obviously, there are people below that figure who deserve attention. In the newly structured Revenue we have special compliance districts in each region and second tier districts in regions and they have a focus on the wealth.

I would make the point that just because people are wealthy does not mean they are necessarily a tax risk. There are some very compliant wealthy people. We have no wish to target people simply because they have done well but if someone is in that category, they deserve an initial look and if everything looks fine, they do not deserve special attention as opposed to anybody else. If things do not look fine, however, they deserve an audit, screening or compliance visit. That is what happens. That is our basic philosophy on that.

The question was asked if we take account from other areas of Revenue. We keep part of our restructuring to make sure, in the new organisation, that every office and officer talks to each other and that our information is shared across our IT systems. Some people might be frightened at times about the profile we can now build up on individuals.

I was asked about the income bands, the numbers of people who in 2001 were reporting incomes over €100,000 and the number reporting in 2004. Approximately 65,000 individuals are reporting income over €100,000. As to whether I am happy that reflects the visible wealth——

The previous figure was approximately 20,000. There were 10,000 PAYE workers earning more than €100,000 and approximately 9,000 self-employed earning more than €100,000. Did the numbers jump from 20,000 to 65,000? That appears to be a large increase.

Mr. Daly

The 2004 figure for PAYE income earners on tax records, including tax-exempt individuals by range of income over €100,000, is 44,000.

The last figure Mr. Daly produced was approximately 10,000.

Mr. Daly

The self-employed figure is 21,000. That is where I got the 65,000 figure.

In other words, the PAYE figure has increased from 10,000 to 40,000 and the figure for the self-employed has increased from approximately 10,000 to 20,000. There has been a four-fold increase in PAYE taxpayers.

I want to ask Mr. Daly a further technical question on that. The answer I got to my question, which was about incomes in excess of €120,000, was that there were approximately 10,000 PAYE workers and more than 9,000 self-employed. I understand that related to what are called tax units and included, for instance, a married couple. In the case of a Garda inspector married to a teacher in an A post, they would have an income of more than €120,000. I presume the reporting of income levels by people in the PAYE sector is high but I am surprised that the reporting by people in the self-employed sector appears, from one's experience and anecdotal evidence, to be much lower.

Mr. Daly

May I make a qualification? I see the wealth and I see what people are earning. In terms of the traditional couple of a civil servant and a nurse, that was the objective when I came to Dublin.

Did Mr. Daly succeed?

Mr. Daly

No, I did not. I got a publican's daughter who was much better. On the face of it, we would expect people like that to be returning more than €100,000. I have a concern about these figures. Revenue has a concern and what we have been doing in the organisation for the past few years is trying to build a more compliant culture. The 2004 figures are essentially modelled on 2001. I hope I am not making an incorrect claim but much greater compliance has been evident to us in the past year or so. That might not necessarily be reflected in our modelled figures. We are keeping an eye on those figures because I see the wealth, as do members.

Before I call Deputy O'Keeffe I want to take up a point a Deputy made, and Mr. Daly might be able to give us this information subsequent to today's meeting. The point concerns the capital allowances and the 269,000 beneficiaries at a cost of €1.921 billion. We understand plant and machinery and so on are business expenses but I suspect the banking and financial services sector is the largest claimant of that group. I would like to see a breakdown by industry of those figures by sector — banking, financial construction, chemical, food and drink. I suspect Mr. Daly has that information.

Mr. Daly

We could do that, yes.

Would Mr. Daly supply that to us because, presumably, many of these, by way of leasing, are done by banks and perhaps banks make the claims. I realise it might be in respect of plant in various manufacturing industries but it would be useful for the committee to know the categories of industry. I am sure Mr. Daly has that information.

Mr. Daly

That would be a factor. I think we can supply that.

Most of the questions I intended to ask have been asked but I want to repeat some of them. I welcome Mr. Daly, the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, and thank him for the comprehensive documentation he presented to us before the meeting, which was very helpful.

On share options, in recent years we have seen a significant influx in people forming plcs and share options are a successful mechanism to attract high-powered management. What criteria exist for payment of income tax on those? I am aware of the capital gains tax and so on but how are share options treated in a tax assessment because there is a trend towards that and there is some animosity in society towards wealth-bearing people? If I am a PAYE worker and I receive €5 million, €7 million or €10 million in share options, it will create jealousy and a problem in society.

On the racing industry and the relief in respect of stallions, which was the subject of a major discussion by people in politics, business and other walks of life, how is a stud farm with a number of stallions or sires assessed for taxation purposes?

The issue of residency receives wide coverage in newspapers in terms of people who live abroad. I call them the moonshiners. We used to call the people who made poitín moonshiners but the new moonshiners are the non-residents who leave the country at 11.55 p.m. to go back to their homes abroad, which creates a problem in society. Equity in taxation and an even-handed approach to the payment of tax is important. There is almost a page and a half of information on the residency issue in Mr. Daly's presentation but quite a number of people reside aboard. When I was a young person I used to read the newspapers and one person who had to live abroad because of the taxation system was Lord Iveagh. The number of people in that position has grown enormously, and names are mentioned from time to time. That is not good for society. Regardless of whether people are wealthy, self-employed or whatever, there must be equity in the taxation system. I wish the individual I referred to well. It has been a successful company that created many jobs in Dublin.

On the audit criteria, I visited America recently with Deputy Burton and we met representatives of the Inland Revenue in Washington. They do not chase after the small business person to the extent we do here. They focus on the larger players. Enron came into the discussion because it had internal auditors and a revenue commissioner, which are the equivalent of those here. The issue of residency arose also but the US did not have the difficulty that arose here. America is a vast, wealthy country with a large population but its audit system does not chase the small business people in the way we do here. They more or less look after the people at the top of the scale who create all the wealth. That is a problem because the small business person does not get the same opportunity. It is much easier to audit a small account than the larger businesses which take much more time and work. I would like Mr. Daly to address those questions.

Mr. Daly

On the taxation of share option gains, in the case of unapproved share option schemes, the employee is chargeable to income tax on the exercise of the option. I wonder whether I should make this available to the committee——

We can circulate it.

Mr. Daly

It is quite technical. I can read it out if the members wish.

No. Do not do that.

Mr. Daly can forward it to the committee.

Mr. Daly

I will ask my colleague, Seán Moriarty, to deal with the issue of the way a stud farm is taxed. I know all about moonshiners because I grew up on the Customs side of Revenue.

That is where Mr. Daly met the publican's daughter.

Mr. Daly

It was, yes. On residency, I share all the views that have been expressed about equity in the tax system. I cannot go into tax policy but as chairman of Revenue, it is valid for me to say that from our point of view we have two main objectives. We have to collect tax and create a culture of tax compliance. In the latter there are many factors. In trying to create a compliant culture we have Revenue's effectiveness in audit, enforcement and investigation. We have education of people and getting them to make the link between paying their tax and public services and responsibility and civic duty. A perception of equity in the tax system is vital from our point of view because if people believe that overall they are being treated fairly and equitably, that helps to improve tax compliance, particularly in a situation where tax rates are relatively low. The perception of equity is very important to us and that applies to residency, availing of allowances or whatever. I agree with the Deputy. We police the system within the rules, but the rules are the rules.

On audit criteria, I could not agree that we target the small business. We now have a large cases division targeting large business more than ever. Some of those large businesses believe that is a little intrusive but they are the ones with the money and that is our focus. All our audits are driven by risk and risk criteria, regardless of the size or type of business. I assure the Deputy that we have no policy or practice of focusing on small business people simply because they are easy targets. The way we have restructured the office in the past few years should emphasise that even more. I will ask my colleague, Seán Moriarty, to deal with the question of the taxation of the stud farm.

Mr. Seán Moriarty

If I understood the Deputy correctly, he asked how we ring-fence a mixed farming enterprise with a stud farm and other farming activities. Is that the core of the Deputy's question?

It is an issue that has been around for some time. There have been accusations that this is an abuse of the system in that these people are not coming into the tax net and they are generating wealth as a result of those tax breaks, which is unfair to other sectors of society. The racing industry has expanded and become very lucrative. That does not happen for no reason.

Mr. Moriarty

I cannot comment on the fairness or otherwise of what is contained in the law. Revenue tries to ensure that only the income that is specifically exempted from law falls out of charge to tax. All that is exempt is the stud fees from the stallions standing at stud but if, for example, a stud farm is comprised of a milk enterprise, tillage or whatever, all the other enterprises are within the charge to tax and we would make sure that none of the expenses associated with the stallions were slipped into the other farm enterprises. Equally, if somebody does particularly well out of their exempt income, any of the income from the investment of those profits or from the capital gains they have had would be taxed in the normal way. We ring-fence that very carefully to the income that is exempt.

I will be brief. Having information available only from 2001 is ridiculous and it is something that should be examined.

On the non-residents with tax liabilities here, are we talking about thousands of people or fewer than 100? Does Mr. Daly have a figure on that?

I saw a figure somewhere, which I have been unable to find since, for benefit-in-kind for persons who have cars and so on. Responses to parliamentary questions indicated that there are about 40,000 individuals involved but the motor trade's estimate is about double that amount. How can Revenue account for such a large discrepancy?

Mr. Daly's presentation states that in the early 1980s the first-time buyer's grant was introduced to encourage the building of new houses and apartments. Factually, that is not right because I built my house in 1971 and I received a double grant. There was a local and a national grant at that time, which was £300 if one was a member of a building group and £300 from the Government. It increased substantially at that time. Mr. Daly probably got the grant himself in the good old days.

Mr. Daly

I did. Even though I married a publican's daughter I still needed a grant. I stand corrected on that point.

On the residency question, it is difficult to say but I am aware that in the large cases division, and it would not deal exclusively with non-residents, there would be about 30 to 40 people whom we keep an eye on, if I can phrase it like that. I hasten to add that does not mean that those people are in any way deficient in their tax affairs. On the face of it we would say, to go back to something that was mentioned earlier, they are here a lot of the time and we will ensure they keep within the rules, etc. I stand corrected on the first-time buyer's grant.

What about the benefit-in-kind question?

Mr. Daly

As the Deputy will be aware, there was a considerable change in the rules last year. We took the view in year one that what we wanted to do, because this was a major change for business and individuals, was to assist people and business in complying. We have let it bed down but we have been putting a particular focus on that in audits. There will be a particular focus on that in the 2005 audits. I do not have the figures the Deputy has and I do not have figures to contradict him but——

I am using Revenue figures.

Mr. Moriarty

——in any such change in procedure we now have a definite policy of policing it quickly before it becomes a problem. If we get in at the beginning of a new scheme or change, we avoid problems later on.

The special review of the high earners took place in 1993-94 and again in 1999-2000. Revenue will now add 2001 to that. Why choose 2001 rather than 2002 because 2001 was a short tax year and it will not be comparable to previous reports?

Mr. Moriarty

It will not be directly comparable but we can extrapolate the figures. We wanted to do it now. There is a demand for that comparative study now and if we waited until we were able to do it for 2002, we would not have it for quite some time. I share the general frustration that we are still working off 2001 figures but the Deputy can take it that the general objective in the office is to move into later reporting years. By the way, the tax rates in 2001 will be comparable. I understand there was no change.

I thank Deputy McHugh for giving me the opportunity to contribute. Mr. Daly talked about his reservations about a minimum tax rate. Does he have an opinion — perhaps he should not have opinions — on the question of maximum tax relief, which is the other side of the coin, or a combination of the two in terms of getting a minimum amount of tax from every taxpayer?

Mr. Daly also talked about modelling based on existing information and trying to catch up in terms of finding out the cost of these reliefs. Does he see a value in pre-modelling in terms of the introduction of any future tax? All of us see value in some type of tax relief. From my point of view, environmental tax relief would be the opposite side of that coin but the difficulty many of us have is that there is an imbalance in the type of reliefs. They are predominantly property reliefs to the extent that acquiring and speculation in property makes up 12% of gross national product. It is arguable whether that is appropriate and if these reliefs directly contribute to that.

On the question of residency, Mr. Daly said that our rules on residency were in common with other European countries. Is it true that similar countries like the United States go beyond the concept of residency and tax all income earned within the jurisdiction, regardless of whether it is earned by particular citizens? The US tax code goes even further and imposes a tax liability on citizens living outside the jurisdiction. That is another way of looking at that problem.

Returning to my point about pre-modelling, and perhaps this question is outside the scope of the Revenue Commissioners, there is a need to model the introduction of any tax relief, not only in terms of the direct economic benefit but on a cross-Government basis, and to ask questions about the social and environmental benefit because many of these tax reliefs are arguable in terms of social and environmental benefits. I am thinking of the tax relief on car parks, for instance. Mr. Daly will be aware of the Comptroller and Auditor General's value for money report on Beaumont Hospital, which saw an effective subsidy from the taxpayer of €50,000 per car park space. That situation was allowed to develop with the assistance of these allowances.

Mr. Daly

On the issue of minimum tax or maximising tax relief, I cannot answer a question on that area. That is our tax policy. Incidentally, I did not say I was against minimum tax rates.

Mr. Daly referred to procedural and legislative difficulties. Would he have those reservations in regard to a maximum tax relief? Would they be any more difficult to introduce from a practical point of view?

Mr. Daly

Maximum relief?

Yes, maximum tax relief.

Mr. Daly

Reliefs have been capped in 1992 and 1998——

Individual reliefs?

Mr. Daly

——in the pensions area, so it can be done. If the policy decision is that we want to curb all these reliefs and ensure that everybody pays some tax, we would examine the two options. Perhaps there is another option we have not thought of, and we would examine it carefully. I have laid out some of the considerations from a Revenue point of view that I would examine.

Deputy Boyle asked if there is value in pre-modelling. The answer is that there is. Nobody could argue with that. The problem is whether we can do it. If a new relief or scheme is being introduced, can we do it within a reasonable timeframe? We all know of the tightness of the budget and Finance Bill timeframe and the question is whether this can be done. Many schemes have to be introduced urgently and a key factor in pre-modelling is whether a reasonable stab can be made at the anticipated take-up. I stand to be corrected on this but I suspect that if we examine the projections we made vis-à-vis the actual take-up, in some cases the take-up would be much more than expected but in others it would be much less. As a general principle I would not have any difficulty with pre-modelling but it is not my call, as the Deputy will appreciate.

On residency, I am not that familiar with the US tax system. My colleague might be slightly more familiar with it.

Mr. Moriarty

I am not very familiar with it either but the Deputy made the point that every American remains liable for tax regardless of where they are in the world, and the IRS will have a presence in most major capital cities to achieve that. The one aspect I would draw attention to is in our own profile of the different types of residency and domicile. American citizens living here fall into that category and they will get their reciprocal tax relief under the tax treaty, but I do not know enough about the American system to say how it compares in terms of liability to US taxes, depending on how long one remains in the United States.

I forgot to mention pension relief. Deputy Bruton talked about the 80% benefit going to 20% of the top income earners of those availing of the scheme. It is also the case that the amount of tax forgone in pension tax relief is now higher than direct payments in State pensions. If the object is to save money in terms of future pension payments by the State, we have already gone beyond that in terms of tax we are forgoing now.

Mr. Daly

That is policy and I will not comment on it. I want to return to the modelling question because my colleague has just reminded me that the SSIAs in particular were a good example of the take-up being far greater than anticipated. The distribution of the take-up was unusual in the SSIA scheme. Most of the take-up has been in the middle to lower income bracket.

Coming back to the issue of the pension schemes, I am in favour of tax-based incentives for people investing in pension schemes but I am concerned that the schemes as they are now designed and as amended in last year's budget in respect of borrowing will excessively favour very wealthy individuals. It is the case that much of the rest of the population will lack adequate pension cover. I know such a question strays into the area of policy and I am not asking the Revenue Commissioners to answer that question. It is a public policy issue for Members of the Dáil. The figures listed in the first table from 2001 show 109,000 retirement annuity premiums paid by self-employed people. I presume those people were generating enough money to enable them to buy a retirement annuity. Since the change in the rules, have the Revenue Commissioners any knowledge of who is benefiting?

I still do not understand the rationale for the change introduced by the Minister last year. I presume much of it is geared towards property-based investments for people in pension schemes and in a hot property market, I do not understand the reason for having it. Have the Revenue Commissioners any profile information? Mr. Daly spoke of tax equity but these are schemes which seem to me to be largely designed to benefit from the top scheme. One would seem to need about €40,000 to €60,000 of surplus income a year to invest in a pension scheme. I do not know how many people in this country can afford that but it is an extraordinarily generous relief for a certain group of people who can generate that kind of surplus income. Will the delegation supply the committee with further information about that scheme?

Mr. Daly

As the Deputy said, the change was a policy decision and I am not going to comment on that. It is a relatively recent change. In terms of profiling, we do not have information and we would need returns from 2003-04 before we could build up a reasonable picture. All pensions are income-related and, as we discussed with Deputy Richard Bruton, there are caps. We are aware of the risks and we have a risk profiling of that whole area. It is dealt with by a specialist unit in the large cases division which monitors these pension schemes.

Mr. Moriarty

In our business plan for this year we are auditing a number of the self-administered pension schemes, specifically the ones mentioned by the Deputy which, now that the borrowing requirement has changed, buy properties and put them into the fund. There is a careful set of rules surrounding those schemes. The individual pension investor cannot access the asset and it comes out at the other end in the form of a pension which is something we must watch and which is the purpose of the audit. We do not have a profile of the individuals who have availed of the scheme since it was changed.

It is extremely advantageous to certain groups of individuals. We are aware of certain schemes that are available, some of which are marketed by former members of the Revenue staff. These schemes seem very attractive for very high net worth individuals. When it comes to the argument about fairness and equity in the tax system, the delegation spoke earlier about having a discussion. It is very difficult if this committee does not have information about how these schemes work.

I could equally ask the delegation questions about the research and development changes last year of which I am strongly in favour. It is an area of activity in which it is appropriate to use tax incentives. The committee has no information, except if tax practitioners inform it, that schemes are easy or difficult to access.

The problem is that the committee could spend another three or four years before it finds out that groups of ten or 20 individuals are grouping together to make significant property investments of many millions of euro. They are being allowed borrow to lever the assets. It does not take much ingenuity to design an attractive scheme if one can gather ten or 20 individuals who could each generate €60,000 a year for investment in such a scheme. My point is that this is not available to the ordinary person who pays PAYE income tax at the 42% rate.

Mr. Daly

There will be and there already is very effective Revenue policing of new schemes or new arrangements, whether it be within pensions or anything else like that. This is to do with real time rather than looking back at past figures. If risks are seen to be emerging, Revenue draws attention to it. We have done that in several areas over the past number of years. Approximately 29 avoidance schemes have been closed off in various Finance Bills over the past five or six years. Much of the information came from Revenue's intelligence and its inspectors becoming aware of something happening. If anything ever emerged in respect of the pension schemes, the Deputy can be assured that it would be discovered fairly quickly.

Nobody should be in any doubt about Revenue's commitment now or in the future to collect data in respect of all reliefs. There will still be 16 or 17 reliefs listed — as listed in the briefing documents given to the committee — on which we will not collect data. They are, by and large, very minor reliefs in areas where one would wonder if it was worth the trouble of collecting that information. As a matter of policy, it will be our intention to collect data on new and significant reliefs. I can also commit to the Revenue's interest in trying to bring forward the year in respect of which we have the data. I do not wish to promise more than I can deliver because there are constraints on that promise. We must wait until the tax returns are in and we must be given a reasonable period of time to do the analysis on the model.

I have one last question on a topic which we did not discuss yesterday, namely, the issue of artists' reliefs. The briefing document lists 1,300 people as having obtained this relief at a cost of approximately €32 million, which is an average of €25,000 per individual. If the tax forgone was €25,000 as a ballpark figure, the gross income would be €70,000 or €80,000. Will the delegation send the committee a breakdown of the ranges of income and the number of persons claiming artists' relief under €50,000 or between €100,000 and €500,000 or the number who have claimed it on income of more than €1 million per individual without compromising the confidentiality of the taxpayers?

Mr. Daly

That would be my only reservation. We can supply that information in bands that will not identify anybody.

The committee will now conclude its business. I thank the chairman and his officials for their useful contributions to the committee's deliberations. We will reflect, as will everybody, on the outcome of the discussions.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.10 p.m. sine die.

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