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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE, PUBLIC EXPENDITURE AND REFORM díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Mar 2012

Public Service Agreement 2010-14: Discussion with ICTU

We are now in public session to discuss matters relating to the Public Service Agreement 2010-14, with representatives of ICTU's public service committee. I would like to welcome: Mr. Shay Cody of IMPACT, who is chair of ICTU's public service committee; Mr. Tom Geraghty, PSEU, who is secretary of ICTU's public service committee; Ms Patricia King, SIPTU; and Ms Sheila Nunan, INTO.

The format of the meeting will be that Mr. Cody will make his opening remarks which will be followed by a question and answer session. I remind members, witnesses and those in the public Gallery that all mobile phones must be switched off. I wish to advise witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice whereby they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in any such way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I will now ask Mr. Cody to begin the proceedings.

Mr. Shay Cody

I will begin by mentioning that my colleague, Ms Sheila Nunan, has an appointment to meet the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, so she might have to leave us in the course of the presentation. Hopefully that will not cause any difficulty.

I thank the Chairman and other members of the committee for this opportunity to appear before it and answer questions about the public service agreement, which is commonly known as the Croke Park agreement. We very much welcome this invitation and the opportunity to give evidence on the important matter of public policy.

The trade unions have a stark and not very pleasant message that we are required to share with our union members - it is that their employer, the Government, is virtually broke. Regardless of how we got into this sorry state, or who is to blame, the gap between Government income and spending was over 10% of GDP last year. Despite the absence of growth in the economy, the troika requires that this must fall to 8.6% this year, down to 5% next year, 4% in 2014 and less than 3% in 2015.

We are telling our members that we would still have to bridge a huge deficit even if bank borrowing and related interest were set aside. Above all, we are saying that as long as the public finances are in this state, there will be unrelenting pressure to erode public service numbers, salaries and working conditions.

Unions have had to confront similar realities in private companies, where costs were extracted mainly through a mix of staff cuts and new working practices aimed at sustaining services and market share as income, investment and staff numbers fell. Extracting costs becomes a top priority when an employer is broke. However, a recent Central Statistics Office study confirmed that most Irish private sector companies facing this challenge use the instrument of pay cuts sparingly, if at all. Staff reductions and changed work practices are the preferred measures.

The public service - where pay cuts and a so-called pension levy have cut gross incomes by an average of 14%, with a further 10% cut for new entrants - bucks this trend to a significant extent. While the public servants that we meet understand the need for further substantial cost extraction, they are determined that it can be done without further erosion of their pay. All the experience since the Croke Park agreement was negotiated shows that they are correct.

We are currently half way through a Government programme designed to cut the public service workforce by 38,000 and to slash €3.5 billion off the pay and pensions bill by 2015. Maintaining the range and quality of core public services in this context requires significant changes to working practices, some of which, like reduced dependence on overtime and other premium payments, are themselves cost-reducing.

Change on this scale requires a framework, not unlike those developed in forward looking companies that must extract costs. The much maligned, equally misunderstood, and frequently misrepresented Croke Park agreement is the framework that we have. How misunderstood is it? Take the recent furore over public service retirements, for example. Despite what some commentators led the public to believe, there was no redundancy or early retirement scheme, and no facility for public servants to get extra payments or pensions. Nor was the public told that public servants who left were subject to an average 4% pension cut plus, for those who retired early, substantial actuarial reductions to reflect their reduced years of pension contributions and any early payments. This means that only those who were already at, or very close to, retirement age left. They were people who, regardless of their experience and value, would have gone in the next year or so anyway.

There is seldom any mention of the Croke Park measures that have given managers the tools to prioritise and maintain services as staff exit the sector. All of the evidence is that the use of these tools ensured that there was no dramatic drop in the quality or level of public services on 1 March. Despite the unnecessary scare-mongering, yet again the agreement proved sufficiently flexible to enable management to change and to facilitate the reduction of cost.

Croke Park is an important but very simple agreement. Public servants must co-operate with the extraction of €3.5 billion of payroll and pension costs. In return, their salaries will not be cut again and compulsory redundancies will be avoided. Staff are delivering. In the first of four years - the year up to June 2011 - Croke Park measures directly led to savings of over €680 million, made up of payroll and efficiency savings plus cost-avoidance initiatives.

Last November, the Croke Park implementation body outlined additional reforms achieved and under way, and reported concrete progress on leave standardisation, rationalisation of services and agencies, redeployment, shared service initiatives and many other local and national reforms. In June this year, its second annual report will quantify the savings delivered in the year to mid-2012.

The savings so far achieved, mostly from reduced staffing, have exceeded Government and troika targets. As the deal approaches its second anniversary, however, significant cost extraction is also being delivered directly through reforms in organisations large and small. These include: €50 million a year from the redeployment of surplus teachers; new rosters in medical laboratories and hospitals, saving €7 million a year; changes in radiography services in hospitals, saving €3.5 million a year; changed prison work practices, saving €20 million a year; almost €1 million saved across St. Michael's House disability services; annual savings of €220,000 in Our Lady's Hospice, Harold's Cross, Dublin; some €685,000 annual savings from small initiatives in Teagasc; and a 20% cut in local authority staffing with €16.5 million of payroll and other savings in Fingal County Council and €700,000 in Galway city alone. There are many more examples.

Critics of the agreement often discount the huge savings from staff reductions and complain that the reforms are too tame or too tardy, but the pattern is similar to what happens in private companies that find themselves in dire straits. Staff cuts bring the biggest and earliest cost extractions with changed work practices, to maintain output and add savings, following later in the process, and unnecessary pain is avoided because companies recognise that they need staff on board in tough times and they concentrate on what is really vital.

Sick leave and its management will come under the spotlight in 2012 and the outcome of a management review of allowances and premium payments is imminent. This has the stated objective of discontinuing certain payments for which, in the view of management, there is no business case, in other words, allowances that do not reflect unsocial hours, valuable qualifications, extra responsibilities or particularly arduous work. This exercise is designed to reduce spending on allowances and premium payments by 5% this year, leading to savings of 10% by 2014. The Government also intends a 10% reduction in overtime spending this year, following a fall of 5% in the first year of the agreement.

The Croke Park agreement is a valuable, if demanding, protection for public service workers. Although they have already seen substantial cuts in their pay and pensions, few public servants disagree when they are told that workers in Greece, Portugal, Italy and Spain would appreciate a similar cost extracting framework that protects their positions.

It is a valuable protection for taxpayers and citizens as well. By and large, its value is recognised by Ministers and elected representatives and we have made ourselves available to give briefings and answer questions from all political groupings in the Oireachtas. This recognition is not only because the agreement is delivering relatively rapid and orderly cost extractions with minimal service disruption, but also because it is adding value to Ireland's international reputation. This was acknowledged in October 2011 in an OECD report, which stated that the agreement "has contributed to social cohesion by providing a collectively agreed basis for reform".

I thank Mr. Cody and his colleagues for coming here today. I want to put a few questions to him more than anything. I will not get into the popular attack on public sector workers that is prominent in a large section of society. There is not a house or a family in Ireland where there are not public service workers and private sector workers and when they meet on family occasions, most houses will have experienced quite divergent views. I do not want to add to that.

I want to ask Mr. Cody a few specific questions on his attitude to the Croke Park deal. Many staff would have left the health services, for example, nursing grades, up to and including 29 February last. Some of those staff who retired, taking lump sums of up to €80,000, €90,000 or €100,000, are back today working through agencies doing similar or the same work as they were doing a fortnight ago, while young qualified nurses cannot get in. I ask Mr. Cody his view on that.

I would ask Mr. Cody to tell Mr. P.J. Fitzpatrick, on drafting the report - we will say this directly to him when we get an opportunity - that the format of his report last year did not do the public service any good. There is much more in it. His report was long on words, short on specifics. It will need to be better to command respect in this House this year, and we will be telling him that. If his second report is in the format of his first report, he will do the entire agreement substantial damage.

I have a hard question for Mr. Cody. Some 38,000 staff are to be taken out over the period. The conclusion one could come to was that there was overstaffing of 38,000 in the system. Mr. Cody might respond to that.

Given that many staff have left, where are the worst front-line problems that Mr. Cody has experienced across his members' areas? We all can talk about the health service, the Garda, the fire service or teaching. Where, in Mr. Cody's opinion, are the critical problems of last week, this week, next week and in the immediate short term to be found?

Is Mr. Cody concerned that the Croke Park agreement will survive to the end of its term or has he any indication that some might be happy if it did not?

On the last two points, I noted Mr. Cody's reference to the €3.5 billion in the pay and pension bill to be taken out by the end of 2015. I thought the Croke Park deal was an agreement on pay, not pensions. This came up when Mr. Fitzpatrick issued his first report last year. People queried the issue that while pay went down, there was a commensurate increase in pensions, and Mr. Fitzpatrick made quite clear he is only dealing with pay. Mr. Cody might clarify that because he referred to pay and pensions at least twice.

Finally, I ask for Mr. Cody's view on increments. Some find it extraordinary during a time when there are staff reductions, in terms of numbers, payroll and pension entitlements, that other staff continue to earn increments, which, I accept, are part of the system. Some would feel that under the pay agreement there should not be pay increases. Mr. Cody might give us his view on the issue of increments. These are really specific questions rather than a general commentary.

Mr. Shay Cody

I shall kick off, but some of my colleagues might want to supplement some of the comments.

With regard to staff leaving and coming back via agencies, this is specific to the health sector and, probably, to nursing. In fact, I discussed this with the INMO this morning. The INMO's view, first, is that it would have a big problem with people leaving and reappearing the following week, in particular, when there are young nurses leaving the country. The view of management would be that it is only a temporary arrangement because there is a big squeeze on budgets for agencies. The big agenda in health for 2012 will be a discussion initiated by management about new rosters, ratios, etc. Obviously, that will take a little time, but the intention is that the amount of agency work will be squeezed out of the system as we go through the year. However, the formal position of the nursing unions would be that they would not approve of or support the idea of somebody exiting and reappearing immediately following and if there were to be agency workers, it would be better that they were younger, more recently qualified nurses.

We will convey to the chairman of the implementation body Deputy Sean Fleming's view on the format and, obviously, try to get the wordsmiths to be as specific as possible for the June report.

It is possible to make a glib statement that if one takes 38,000 jobs out of the system it means there were 38,000 too many in the past. Personally, I have been involved in much re-engineering in private companies. For example, Aer Lingus has taken many staff out of working on board aircraft. One could have stated that they were overstaffed in the past but what we have done is reconfigured services, gone down to the legal minimum and changed rosters and staff are spending much more time working in that environment. In effect, the numbers who were employed supported a set of working rules and regimes. In a crisis, which happens in the public service and private companies, when the squeeze comes on we all must get together to say that it is inevitable that jobs will reduce in number and our task is to redesign the internal working of the organisation. Sometimes that involves stating that work is less important than heretofore and some work will be parked, and other work will require configuring rosters or ratios to ensure staff are on duty at a suitable time. Crisis all across the board gives rise to that discussion. The truth is that in better times, whether it is in private or public companies, there is an amount of weight we all put on.

If we were to be pressed as to where we have most concern, frankly, because it is a life and death service, health always is the area about which one must have most concern. In other areas it means delays or some grievance felt by the public around that, but there is much of the health system where one would have a concern that one must have the staff on duty at a particular time. There would not be any specific points we would be making around it other than the generalised feeling that it is the area to which everybody needs to pay most attention.

We are satisfied that the agreement can and will survive until its end in 2014. We are more than half way to the targets even though we are not half way to the timescale of the agreement. The big exodus last February leaves us well ahead of where we need to be. From the point of view of public servants delivering what is required as part of the economic crisis, we are satisfied that there may be hiccups along the way but the Croke Park agreement can and will survive the system.

The reason that we started describing the figure as a pay and pension figure was that a legitimate point was made that if we reduced the payroll by X and increased pensions by Y were we not simply robbing Peter to pay Paul. The debate would be much better served if we looked at the issue as a global parcel. It is still the intention that the payroll will be reduced from a peak of €17.5 billion to just over €14.5 billion over the lifetime of the agreement. On top of that we have the pension levy paid by public servants that is almost €1 billion. Our figures suggest that the pension bill will increase from about €2.6 billion in 2009 to €3.1 billion by the end of the agreement and that is where a net figure of a €3.5 billion saving comes from. We will just describe the saving as €4 billion on pay and the pension levy and an increase of €500 million on pension costs because it is a more realistic way of describing it for a public policy debate.

An attack on increments would be most unfair. The majority of civil servants who receive increments are clerical officers. Hardly any senior management receive increments because some senior level pay scales have no increments or management scales tend to be very short and the great majority of managers are at the top of their pay scales. A decision to stop increments would attack the terms and conditions of lower paid workers. In a series of parliamentary questions the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, has indicated that the overall cost of annualised increments in the public service is €200 million gross. In any particular calendar year it is half that because not everybody receives their increment on 1 January as it is spread throughout the year. The calendar year cost of increments is €100 million gross because people do not get their entire increment in their pocket as the Government receive their PAYE, the universal social charge, a pension contribution and a pension levy. The amount of increment that works its way into the bank accounts of all public servants is, at most, €50 million per year. In the context of a payroll cost of €15.5 billion, if we were to have a fight about something increments would be a really stupid thing to have a fight about. It would be unfair to the lower paid workers and €50 million in the context of a €15 billion payroll bill is just not worth the candle from the point of view of having a big row on the Croke Park agreement.

Mr. Cody mentioned the grades that receive increments. At what grade do increments stop? He said that senior management do not have many increments.

The Minister is now talking about a targeted retirement programme. Did he discuss it with the union? Is it provided for in the agreement? On a couple of occasions in the Dáil he has used the phrase a "targeted approach" for a further reduction in numbers. That concludes my questions.

Mr. Shay Cody

Perhaps my colleague, Mr. Geraghty, has a better handle of the matter. Broadly speaking, a clerical officer in the Civil Service has a 16 or 17 year incremental scale.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

An executive officer's incremental scale spans 15 years. As one moves up the ranks incremental scales shorten and eventually reach zero.

What grades have no increments?

Mr. Tom Geraghty

Assistant secretary and above.

Do grades up to principal officer level have increments?

Mr. Tom Geraghty

A principal officer has a short incremental scale but I do not know how many points. As one goes up the grades incremental scales shorten.

Mr. Shay Cody

There have already been a few examples of targeted exits such as the National Building Agency and Teagasc where staff were stranded. If Teagasc closes an agricultural research station in the west of Ireland, rather than move people a long distance and perhaps into jobs that are alien to their background they have made available what I call the HSE package to a small number of people. From our discussions with the Minister and his officials, it is such a small scale of redundancy arrangements that neither the management nor union side envisages a redundancy scheme being applied across the board. The targets laid out by the troika will be achieved by natural retirements.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

It is worth making the point that we would not see it being necessary because there is a redeployment provision where vacancies arise.

The delegation is welcome and I have had the opportunity to speak to a few of them before. Unlike what Deputy Sean Fleming said earlier about other reports, this one is clear and factual and I compliment the delegation on it. The report contains the type of factual information that needs to be broadcast. There are many misconceptions and much misinformation circulating and on many occasions it was done deliberately in order to attack public service workers. The report's examples are worthwhile.

A lot of work needs to be done by the Parliament, the Dáil and the unions to explain increments. We have tried to explain it, as has the delegation here, but the people have not received a clear message. I believe that a negative perception was put out for mischievous purposes. I welcome the group's comments and facts on how to redesign the public sector while we are in a crisis. Over the past two years a lot of work has been done to redesign the public sector but more work needs to be done to allow management grades to buy into the idea and move along with the unions. Does the group think that everybody has engaged at the same level as the unions? Are elements of the public sector resistant to redesigning the service?

Sick leave was mentioned earlier. It is a difficult topic to deal with in the private and public sectors and I would welcome further comments on it from the group.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

The Deputy raised the subject of increments again. It is the second time the topic has been raised and it is a familiar refrain. As Mr. Cody mentioned earlier, we have met most of the political groups at this stage. The reason incremental scales exist is because it was deemed that it would take some time for people to be paid the full rate for their jobs. There is an element of waiting until they are fully trained and at full capacity before they receive the full rate. That is the history of increments. The State saves a considerable amount of money because it recruits people at relatively low levels of pay and requires them to serve for a considerable period before they reach the maximum of their respective increment scales.

Ms Patricia King

I will deal with the point made by Deputy Kevin Humphreys on the management of the service and possible changes. This is a collective agreement and there are positives for both sides in a private or public sector collective agreement. The positive from the worker's point of view is a commitment to no further pay cuts, no compulsory redundancies and the redeployment of staff within 45 km. They are the three valuable pieces of the agreement if you work in the public service. On the employer side the collective agreement is a vehicle of considerable strength to reform the sector. When the agreement was signed there were 320,000 people. Reform has taken place in a relatively short period of time, cutting the core pay bill by 20% and cutting numbers down to what the Government informs us is 282,000 by the end of 2015. That comparison could be made for any private sector company or public entity, which is in itself divided into thousands of employers who have to follow this track to get there. As one can imagine there are considerable difficulties. There are groups of people who have never been in this space before. There are those in senior management who never had to step up to this mark and never had to put forward change mechanisms that would in some cases completely overturn the normal work of people and write themselves into the script. As long as I have been doing this we have never seen any public sector employers having to go into that space on a regular basis. That is what they need to do to deliver this agreement. Some of them have come to this party much more slowly than others in terms of delivery.

Trade unions and workers are well used to delivering collective agreements. They make a very short and quick evaluation of what is in it for them. Once they commit to it they will deliver it. Our job is to lead them into that place and ensure that every aspect of the agreement to which we have signed up will be delivered. That is our task - it is not always the easiest task because it means there are people who have lost money, particularly at the lower levels, over and above the overall pay cut that is in it. I have been in many rooms with local authority workers, bin men and others who have lost money. Many people within the Oireachtas or the media do not seem to want to tell that story, but it is a reality. In some cases those people have lost a considerable amount of money over and above the overall cut. It is very difficult for those people to deliver the terms of the agreement, but that is what they need to do. It is a matter of flexibility and trying to get the agreement to live up to the maximum rather than the minimum.

In response to Deputy Kevin Humphreys, I would say there are gaps in the management of this. Some sectors need to do more in the managerial proposals they make. A Deputy asked whether the agreement would survive. I do not know whether it will survive. However, I know what it takes to make a collective agreement survive. It requires both sides to step up to their commitments in the agreement to make it work.

Ms Sheila Nunan

Perhaps I might speak now because I may need to leave after this. I wish to address a question in respect of the commitments of primary and post-primary teachers about the hour. The question was raised about the use of the additional hour per week, particularly at post-primary level. That has been a very significant piece of productivity on behalf of both primary and secondary teachers. The additional hour is completely in place at both levels. Some suggestions were made about the usage of the hour. We are here to ensure the delivery and not necessarily to renegotiate it. Very specific terms were set out in regard to the agreement, including some additional supervision and substitution - one of the issues raised in the Vice Chairman's letter. In any event that was negotiated with the senior management in the Department of Education and Skills and the unions concerned and was issued by way of circular letter. That would be a matter for management if it wanted to take it up. We have already committed to what is in that particular agreement.

In addition to the hours, even outside the agreement a degree of modernisation continues to proceed in the education sector, including the implementation of the literacy and numeracy strategy of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, and curricular reform in the post-primary junior and senior cycles. Many of those hours would deal with the continuous professional development issue and the planning around many of those initiatives. It has been done without intrusion in class teaching time. That huge number of hours has been very useful to enhancing the delivery of the system.

I wish to make a point about increments. Of all the professions, teachers have an extraordinarily long incremental progression. Now with the second cut in pay to new entrants in 2011, our newly qualified teachers are starting on the first point of the scale whereas they used to start on the second or third. As it is a 25-point scale, it is a fairly long and slow march up through the incremental system. That needs to be recognised given the cuts they have already experienced. I am happy at least to confirm there has been a complete and comprehensive implementation of all aspects of the agreement by the teaching profession - from the hours to the redeployment as set out in the agreement. That has been in place for more than a year.

Ms Nunan raised the issue of my letter to the committee. That letter was addressed to me by teachers. With the recent cutbacks many teachers have been in contact with Members of the Oireachtas. The teachers who contacted me felt many schools are looking for "makey-up" issues to fill the additional hours. Many teachers would be quite happy if those hours were put into the normal school day. It is not necessarily something that came out of my head, but was addressed to me. It warrants discussion given that we are making huge cutbacks on schools. We are making the cutbacks only in 30% of the budget because the other 70% goes on wages and salaries, which are obviously protected by the Croke Park agreement.

I am sure this issue has also been raised with Ms Nunan. On Thursday, 8 March, I attended a public meeting at which I had to take plenty of abuse about the cutbacks in education, mostly from teachers who were informing me of the cutbacks in their schools. It was only on the mention of the Croke Park agreement that a sense of reality was brought to the debate. This is not us attacking teachers or the public service - this is something put to me by teachers who wanted to consider things that could be changed within the Croke Park agreement to make it work. Ms Nunan mentioned the two-way process to make agreements work. Teachers accept there is an agreement and within the agreement it might be possible to block this, but there is also an opportunity to be a bit flexible if teachers believe this is something that could work. When my letter was read, I am not sure whether the INTO executive decided to shoot it down or whether there was further discussion with teachers on it. That is the approach I was taking.

Ms Sheila Nunan

That is fair enough. I only read it on the way in today.

Under the Croke Park agreement, third level academics also agreed to do an extra hour's work per week in addition to their existing work, so it has happened.

Ms Sheila Nunan

I just read the letter on the way in and have not had an opportunity to discuss it. I am very conscious that my role here from the implementation body is in terms of implementing what has already been agreed, not renegotiating what is already in place. Regarding flexibility, the Vice Chairman will also be aware that as part of the expenditure cuts in recent years there has been a significant number of what are referred to as posts of responsibility in schools that have now been suppressed as a result of the moratorium and retirements. That has yielded a saving of €36 million. In reality many of those duties will have been taken up by other members of staff. As the Vice Chairman will be aware, the teaching day needs to be supplemented by a considerable range of activity in terms of planning and preparation. Historically much of that time intruded on teaching. At least that has now been eliminated, which parents appreciate. There will continue to be that flexibility within the official time and outside the official time, which has been a very significant feature of our school system and something we would not like to see eliminated over time.

Regarding teachers campaigning, we are always passionate about the system we provide. There has been a significant reduction in teaching resources for schools since the introduction of the Croke Park agreement. Last year saw the elimination of several hundred teaching support posts for Traveller education and this work is now the responsibility of classroom teachers. Guidance counselling is an issue this year. We welcomed the reversal of the decision on DEIS schools and nobody would say it was not important.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

I wish to pick up on something the Vice Chairman mentioned almost casually in passing but which needs to be dealt with. He suggested all of the cuts are on the non-pay side and that the pay side is protected. This is not the case. A myth has grown that it is off-limits. The public service pay bill will decrease by €3.5 billion. To return to a question posed earlier on whether the agreement would survive, it is difficult to see how it could be in the interests of the State for the agreement not to survive. How else will the reduction of approximately €3.5 billion in the pay bill be achieved without affecting services or minimising the impact on services? This point needs to be made. It is constantly suggested in the media and by some public representatives that all cutbacks are on the non-pay side. It must be made clear that this is not the case. The cut of €3.5 billion in public expenditure is significant and it is coming from the public service pay bill.

To generalise on the specific point raised with my colleague, "the Croke Park agreement" has become a catch-all phrase and it is blamed for every problem arising in the public service. It is convenient for managers who can wash their hands of things. They state they would love to do something but cannot under the Croke Park agreement. The Croke Park agreement is an enabling agreement. It is there to enable an employer make the changes necessary to reflect the fact that the country is broke and therefore we are not in a position to continue to deliver services as we did previously. It is still the responsibility of management to manage. If an issue arises about a change under the Croke Park agreement it is still the responsibility of management to manage and ensure the change is used in a way that maximises service delivery. Our role as representatives of the workers concerned and as members of the implementation body is to ensure any industrial relations implications or obstacles with regard to the implementation of changes are managed in a way that enables the agreement to do what it is supposed to do. We are not management. Perhaps there is an assumption that management can pass off its requirement to manage the service. This is not the case. Our role is far more limited. It is simply to ensure the smooth delivery of this agreement.

Mr. Shay Cody

Deputy Humphreys made a comment on sick leave which I wish to address. In the coming months there will be a review process on sick leave. It is the settled view of all of the trade unions that the most important aspect of the sick leave regime is that it is appropriately humane for those who are seriously ill on a long-term basis. At various times of their lives people suffer illness or injury which incapacitates them. Whether or not a sick leave scheme exists, they cannot work. We need to design the scheme in such a way that society believes it is fair and reasonable. We will get into the fine print when we begin discussions but it is the starting consensus view among trade unions that this is the most important element of the scheme.

I welcome Mr. Cody's remarks on sick leave. I have had engagement with public sector workers deemed unfit due to illness to return to the job they had but who were anxious to return to employment. There was some inflexibility on the part of their employers with regard to allowing them to retrain. People who cannot do the job for which they were employed go on long-term sick leave. We need to look at sick leave in a different manner with more flexibility. There are onerous jobs in the public sector which one cannot do with certain illnesses or injuries. However, one should be allowed to retrain to return to a different sector.

Last year, I debated strongly with a certain section of the health sector which insisted it was covered by the Croke Park agreement and therefore there should be no savings. On further reading of the Croke Park agreement it was discovered the section was not covered by it but was anxious to get into the comfort area. Certain sections claim they are covered by the Croke Park agreement but were not involved in negotiations and did not seek to be involved. I imagine the witnesses know the group to which I refer.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

The word "professional" springs to mind.

I am always astonished when people, as the Vice Chairman did, make a point of the fact that the big spend in public services is on wages. They are services and so it is entirely logical that the lion's share of resources goes on wages. I am glad to have heard the trade unions set out very clearly the situation with regard to increments. Increments are not pay increases; they are part of the payment package designed in that way.

For the purposes of our discussion it would be useful to put two other points on record. Of those in the State in receipt of family income supplement, which is paid to people on incomes the State recognises are at or below the poverty line, 10% are public sector workers. It is also worth stating there is a huge gap in our system, unlike in other European jurisdictions, whereby the distance between the low paid and very high paid in the public sector is wide. With this in mind I wish to ask our guests to comment on the almost 6,500 people in the system who earn very big bucks, in excess of €200,000. What is their view on this? Do they share my frustration at the fact that these high rollers are largely protected while those in clerical grades will probably endure an attack even on the very modest increments due to them?

I understand the parallels drawn by Mr. Cody and I understand why he made reference to the private sector and cost management models in private enterprises. However, it is important to state that public services are not for-profit entities in the private sector. Classrooms and hospital wards are not factories and do not turn out widgets. Therefore, to state the Croke Park agreement is a comfort blanket for citizens must be questioned.

I understand entirely and absolutely accept the trade unions' honour in terms of making and keeping an agreement. I understand there are elements, not least in the Oireachtas and possibly on the committee, who would wish to see the Croke Park agreement unpicked for the purposes of the lowest common denominator and getting rid of even bigger numbers. However, it must be stated that to lose such a huge number of workers from the sector must jeopardise front-line services and services in general. What are the views of the witnesses on the short, medium and long-term planning done not only in terms of trade union members but in terms of management for dealing with this haemorrhage from the system? What sectors have fallen below par?

In the course of the introductory remarks, it was stated that there had been unnecessary scaremongering in advance of 1 March. What was meant by this? Many of us who raised the issue of the early retirement, that exodus from the system, did so in good faith. The basis of our concern was that services would be damaged and undermined and the morale of people working within the public sector would be further eroded. If the question of sick pay is to be addressed, presumably in connection with the issue of absenteeism, whether related to sickness or otherwise, the issue of the workforce's morale is pivotal.

I was never a fan of the Croke Park deal. I do not accept that the State is broke. The same people who want to remove €3.5 billion in pay and pensions will rustle up €3.1 billion for Anglo Irish Bank at the end of this month, but that is their political choice and we will argue the toss with them. What about the people in the system who are highly paid? Is there slippage, that is, poor management or mismanagement of the agreement, and in what particular sectors?

Mr. Tom Geraghty

I will respond to the questions in the order in which they were raised. There are many myths concerning the question of highly paid public servants and it is no harm to use this opportunity to put something on the record. Although the record was previously corrected, a myth grew around a response to a parliamentary question. The actual figure for the number of people who might be regarded as high earners in the public service, namely, those earning more than €100,000 rather than €200,000, is approximately 6,800, in or around half of whom are hospital consultants. The remainder are spread across the various sectors within the public service. We do not represent them. The majority of them are not in trade unions and it would be easy for me to tell the committee to do whatever it likes, but it is no harm to identify how we have reached a situation in which so many people are that well paid. It was a reflection of what was occurring in the economy generally during the boom times. Pay in the public service was being related to equivalent pay rates in outside employment, as a result of which the number of people on high pay grew. I will not attempt to speak for them, but it would be fair to say that they have taken the largest pay cuts of all, namely, in the order of 20%.

Regarding the idea of comfort blankets and whether the country is broke, I was not attempting to make a political point. I was observing something that I regarded as fact and did not intend a debate. The fiscal crisis is undeniable and we can have a debate offline on whether the Government should spend money on other measures. In the current circumstances, however, our job as representatives of the people who are employed by the State to deliver public services is to try to protect their employment and pay as much as we can. In return for this and as one would expect in circumstances in which the employer is broke or experiencing fiscal difficulties, the employer has sought certain undertakings from the employees to ensure services continue to be delivered at a level that we would all regard as acceptable. This is what the Croke Park agreement is. It is infinitely preferable to the employees of the State being in permanent conflict with their employer. That is the alternative to such an agreement. The Government, the State or the citizens, however one chooses to describe the situation, receives a bonus, in that the employees will do whatever is necessary, within reason, to ensure that services are delivered, provided the guarantees secured under the agreement are delivered to them. This is the nature of the agreement.

We were asked whether morale was good as a consequence of the agreement. Certainly not. Public servants have suffered two cuts in their pay and been kicked from pillar to post in our media. The one matter that every organ of the media seems to agree on is that public servants are a legitimate target. As one would expect in such circumstances, morale is not good. It is not likely to be good until we return to a happier state and the pay cuts are restored. Unfortunately, it would appear that we are some way from that state.

We were also asked whether there were instances of poor management.

I do not mean to cut across Mr. Geraghty, but I appreciate that he does not represent the 6,800 highly paid public servants and he cannot speak on their behalf. The difficulty lies in the fact that a small coterie of people are on pay levels that cannot be defended in the current climate. This has been used as a birch against the back of every public servant. The narrative is that they are all overpaid. I was not expecting Mr. Geraghty to speak on behalf of those in receipt of high pay, but I expected him to have a position on the matter. I assumed that his position would have been something along the lines that, if the issue of pay was to be dealt with fairly and equitably, there was still scope for substantial savings, notwithstanding the 20% cut already taken. I will not rehearse the headline cases of people who have left, their pensions, their lump sums and so on, but we are familiar with the position.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

It is probably no harm to make the point that 80% of public servants earn less than €60,000 per year.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

We represent that group. Those public servants are the ones most likely to be represented by trade unions. We made the agreement on their behalf and our priority is to ensure that it delivers to them, not to suggest that someone else should take pay cuts. We are not in that business.

It has been indicated that the issue of increments may be placed on the table. According to Mr. Cody, this would net savings of approximately €50 million by affecting workers further down the food chain and pay scale. If it is placed on the table, will the unions continue to maintain the position that it is not their business to address the real scandal elsewhere, namely, the small group of people in the system who are vastly overpaid?

Mr. Tom Geraghty

I am hopeful that that issue will not arise. There is no reason for it to arise. The idea of targeting people who, by definition, are the lowest paid in the public service is nonsense. We hope that we will not need to deal with the problem. If we must, it will be a major crisis for the Croke Park agreement. Certain undertakings were given in the Croke Park agreement to protect people's pay and employment. The issue that might arise, if the lowest paid were attacked, is whether we could continue to deliver under the terms of the agreement. That is where our focus would have to be in the circumstances.

Mr. Shay Cody

I will try to address the secondary point of from where the noise was coming in regard to the perceived crisis on 1 March and whether there are obstacles in the management of the system. We have all come across managers in the system who are not particularly proactive and, in some cases, seek to hoard staff on the grounds that if one loses them, one will never get them back. There have been examples of this in agencies, local government and, in particular, the HSE in which there is a lot of tussling as to whether staff can or should be released into other parts of the organisation which everyone broadly agrees are providing more urgent services. As recently as yesterday, shop stewards were telling me they were still experiencing difficulties in having staff redeployed to perform crucial roles. They were pointing the finger at middle managers who, in effect, believe particular staff belong to them.

On the situation in the lead-up to 1 March, Deputies and Senators are entitled to and should articulate the views and concerns of the public. There was much coverage on radio of the 45 midwives due to leave the hospital in Limerick. A senior HSE manager stated only 12 or 13 midwives would be leaving. I cannot recall the exact figure, but currently there are six midwives in the organisation who are not working as midwives. These will be redeployed, which will leave us with six or seven midwives. I have received sanction to hire six or seven and to bring staff in on an agency basis in the meantime. I do not know why there was that firestorm, but I do know that if I was a pregnant woman in the mid-west at the time, I would have been terrified. What happened was unnecessary.

There was also noise in the system about the filling of promotional posts in the Garda Síochána. Had we all gone about filling posts in the health and local government sectors, it would have been seen as self-serving. Some promotional posts within the Garda Síochána have been filled, while others have not. A judgment must be made in that regard. Hearing about issues on "Morning Ireland" or reading about them in The Irish Times is not necessarily the most equitable way of dealing with them. Elected Members have a different role in life - to consistently challenge the Government and raise queries. I am speaking only about what goes on within the system.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

We considered there was a need for us to comment on what happened on 29 February. We were all told this would be a major test for the Croke Park agreement. It is early days yet, but I suggest all the indications are that it was passed with flying colours, as we were always reasonably confident it would be. We did not share the pessimism about the consequences. It was simply a continuation of a process that had been ongoing since large numbers began leaving, as a consequence of which we have had to reorganise and reconfigure the way organisations operate in order to ensure continued delivery of services.

Ms Patricia King

Deputy Kieran O'Donnell asked about the delivery of front-line services. I would not underestimate the level of daily engagement with management in the public service. Having been involved in such engagement on a regular basis, I can say that the quality of engagement from a management point of view has, on occasion, been low. Trade union representatives and officials are seeking to ensure that where changes are being made, the bottom line is the preservation of front-line services. The agreement is about providing management with the flexibility it needs to do this. Our involvement is to ensure services are delivered and that workers can deliver in a reasonable manner. That is what we are seeking to do.

It would be wrong not to say some propositions are bad, as members are aware. They will have heard us say this in the media. We do not always have an opportunity to say so, but we have said it on occasion. If we get this right, the transformation of the public service could be a success story. From where I am sitting, some of what is happening is the fault of senior public service managers. When one is passed the requirement to get the lower paid to change this, that and the other, it becomes necessary for the people engaged in the change process to write themselves into the script, but they do not like to do this. Who directs them? I suggest, with respect, that the Oireachtas has a role to play in this regard. It has a far greater role to play than I do. I am an agitator in having to constantly ask why people are doing this, that and the other. They do not like to see me coming. It is evident on their faces.

Every other service provided by Dublin City Council should be examined before a decision affecting the fire service is made, which decision could result in people losing their lives. That is the level of my engagement and that of all other representatives in the preservation of services. This is about the preservation of the delivery of services to citizens in the city or town concerned, an issue we take extremely seriously. We are engaged in this activity every day and there is strong engagement on the issues involved. One often comes out unsure of whether the people with whom one has been negotiating have a handle on matters and will deliver by way of restructuring and reforms. I am sure members have also had this experience. I cannot tell people that if they take this or that action, they may achieve a positive outcome, as I cannot manage services for them. However, I can introduce them to the notion that a particular action might work. The level of engagement increased significantly in the latter part of 2011 and in the early part of this year, in part because of the exit of staff at the end of February.

Our bottom line is the preservation of services. We are heartened by the number of workers who believe this and are willing to engage in a change process to ensure front-line services are delivered. That is not the traditional understanding of how we operate, nor is it the traditional view of what we do when involved in a process of engagement, but that is what we are doing.

Ms King is saying there is either an inability on the part of management or that it lacks interest in implementing some provisions of the Croke Park agreement which seeks to protect the delivery of front-line services. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald has made the accusation that some members of the committee and the Oireachtas in general would like to tear up the agreement, but I do not believe that is the case. The concerns are about the implementation of the Croke Park agreement. The third year of the agreement begins in a week and many issues have already been highlighted, such as the changing work practices for large groups of people within the public sector that do not seem to have come about. I looked through the implementation body's summary of progress and there is much that remains in discussion.

Ms Patricia King

The Vice Chairman would be very familiar with the health sector from his own background, and it employs 108,000 people. There are thousands of employers and it would be really wrong to give the impression that across the sector some parts of that fabric are not weak, specifically regarding the transformation agenda. Some parts are weak, which should be of no surprise to anybody, as it is a big outfit. The Croke Park agreement has put in place a mechanism for dealing with those sorts of issues when they arise and it has certainly served to focus the parties with regard to boundaries and what must happen. I wanted to describe the truth and major difficulties. Within the agreement mechanism there is a route further up the line that can attempt to ensure such issues are brought to places like this committee and before Ministers so remedial action can be taken. I would say the system works but I would not like to give any impression that this is not a hard slog; it is hard to deliver results. I wanted to make that point with regard to Deputy McDonald's comments and front line services are key to the process. More important, it is also key to the workers we represent.

Mr. Shay Cody

As part of the Croke Park agreement architecture, there is a national implementation body and we receive action plans from the various sectors. At a sectoral level there are kinds of sub-implementation bodies. It is no secret that there is a consensus view between trade union representatives and management that at times the management ends must be challenged to be either more ambitious or specific in the agenda for the following 12 months, for example. From that dialogue there can be some high quality action plans that may end up causing difficulties for us on the ground in some cases. Others may come from a slow start and part of the agreement process is to ensure that everybody tries to travel, in as much as is possible, at a similar pace. Some of the toughest interactions have come from sitting with management teams and challenging their actions and agenda. They are private conversations but I suspect some very senior managers in the public service have not usually been subject to the level of cross-examination they have seen at these implementation bodies. There is no harm in that.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

It is no harm to make the point that this is an inevitable consequence of a process of change. I do not believe any of us would accept that the pace of that change has been too slow, which can be inferred from the questioning. Considering the report which has been mentioned, in the first year the Croke Park agreement delivered savings to the State of €689 million. Taking that amount from the system, along with the concurrent number of people, there must be a reorganisation of the way in which services are delivered. One cannot simply proceed as if there would be the same number of staff and amount of money available. It is and will remain a constant challenge. We began by indicating that the workers providing public services understand that this challenge must be met.

I find myself in the rare position where my questions are almost the same as those asked by Deputy McDonald. I thank the delegation for the presentation, and there is much in it with which I would agree. The witnesses indicated that the Croke Park agreement has not just resulted in a reduction of the pay bill and is very much about protecting or adding value to Ireland's international reputation. That is absolutely crucial as it will eventually get us back to the markets and out of our current position of being totally dependent on others to decide what we can do. I am sure if Greece could buy industrial peace, it would do so.

The delegation is correct and we are told that the Croke Park agreement will deliver €3.5 billion in savings from the pay and pensions bill. That deal was negotiated before the bailout and before we realised the extent of the catastrophe which has befallen this country. It also came in the midst of five budgets which have taken money from the economy in trying to reduce our deficit. We are now facing into several more budgets and we will look to take €3 billion next year and the same amount for the following two years. I am sure the delegation understands as well as I do that it will become increasingly difficult, if pay is sacrosanct, to find such savings without affecting services. I know no more about this than anybody else but there has been discussion in the media about abolishing the bus pass for the elderly, increases in the pupil-teacher ratio and cutting home help services for the elderly. No matter what is said, there is a direct connection between pay rates and services. I fully appreciate what the delegation has said about services being protected up to now, largely due to the great flexibility shown by public servants. Despite large numbers leaving, we have been able to protect services, although it will become more difficult to do so.

Is there any appreciation among public service workers that this process may not be sustainable, no matter how much both sides may want it? What is the likely reaction and what is the advice of the unions likely to be? Mr. Geraghty mentioned that constant conflict would be the price of breaking the Croke Park agreement but what will happen if there are no other acceptable choices, if the economy does not grow and we must continue to take money from the economy? What will happen if there is no other choice but to decrease the budgets? Will we still see constant conflict, as mentioned by the witness?

Deputy McDonald referred to how much of the public see public servants as being overpaid but the vast majority are not. Some are well paid and we do not even have to speak of those getting paid more than €200,000 per year to talk about the big bucks; in my world, anything over €100,000 is being well paid. Is there any possibility that the constant conflict described by Mr. Geraghty will not be necessary if we have to face the prospect of breaking the Croke Park agreement? This is not an issue of people being overpaid but rather whether we can afford the current pay rates of those in higher-paid brackets.

Mr. Shay Cody

We are not here to either defend or articulate a position on behalf of people on very high salaries. If the Government wishes to act on that issue, it should do so, as it does not need our agreement or blessing. Many people earning at those levels are not members of our trade unions and our responsibility is to represent the interests and positions of members in our trade unions. There is nothing unreasonable in that.

I thought the witnesses might know the mind of the public servant.

Mr. Shay Cody

I presume the Deputy would know it as well. They are the management teams in the public service, but as my colleague noted, half the people earning big bucks in the public service are hospital consultants. Is there any indication that the Minister for Health wants to have a conversation on that issue? That is the big nut to be cracked. If one wished to start a conversation with principal officers or county managers, I suspect they would be easy to deal with once the Minister had dealt with hospital consultants. However, I have no mandate to speak on their behalf.

Mr. Cody has a mandate to speak on behalf of public servants. Perhaps he might answer the question rather than pick off individual groups. Incidentally, I agree with him on the position of hospital consultants.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

It is true chronologically that the agreement was made prior to the bailout, but it increased the pressure to deliver savings, as well as identifying the quantum of savings required. The numbers to be removed are significantly greater as a consequence of what happened in the aftermath of the bailout than was envisaged when the agreement was made. I repeat my point that the figure will be €3.5 billion. The Government could take out that figure by imposing further pay cuts, but there would, of course, be a reaction to such an approach, particularly from those who have spent the past couple of years delivering change in order to facilitate the savings the Government requires.

Change is always painful because people get used to working in a certain way, but public service workers understand the situation in which we find ourselves. It is necessary for the Government to make significant reductions in the public service pay bill. This is being done through the Croke Park agreement which set out a co-operative basis for relations between employees and their employer. The alternative is conflict, from which there is no point in running away. Ironically, when we first negotiated the agreement, I got into trouble on our side for making the point that the alternative was an industrial relations war. I was criticised for making what I thought was an obvious point. If it was obvious then, unfortunately, it is still obvious now.

Mr. Shay Cody

It is important to recognise that public servants have taken two pay cuts already. Those hired in the public service - there are not many - have taken a further 10% pay cut. Any discussion on the approach that should be taken to public servants cannot ignore the extent of the cuts already applied. The evidence from the Central Statistics Office shows that in the public service there was a greater reduction in earnings than anywhere else in the economy, with the exception of those who lost their jobs. In other words, of those who managed to hold on to their jobs in the period since 2008, public service workers took the largest reductions in salaries, but people do not harp on about this. The Croke Park agreement provides a mechanism for us to seek to claw some of the money back when the economy picks up in due course.

Workers co-operated with all the changes that have been delivered, including the examples we gave in our submission. Another example is agreeing, without political controversy, to the reconfiguration by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Teagasc of their office network. People did not wire up farmers about this. They commuted long distances from local offices to centralised offices, despite taking two pay cuts. At the end of all that it is unthinkable for the Government to look for a third pay cut. The international commentary from the OECD, the IMF and parts of the troika indicates that Ireland has done something extremely valuable in creating, without unending conflict, a situation where we can seek to work together and achieve consensus. All the Ministers we meet, from the Taoiseach down, indicate they want this to continue.

I appreciate that industrial peace is precious to us, but the point I am trying to make is that there is a trade-off between pay rates and services. The unions have tried to protect this until now, but it is going to become increasingly difficult, as more money is taken out of the economy. I accept that public service workers have taken a pay cut and pay the levy, as we all have. They have been painful for everybody, but many have had to face the unthinkable. Mr. Cody has indicated that a third pay cut would be unthinkable. However, I put a doomsday scenario to him and ask if there is any appreciation of the fact that we may be reaching that point. I do not suggest I know more than he does; rather, I am simply making the point that there will be a trade-off between pay rates for public servants and services for the rest of the community, including those who have lost their jobs.

Mr. Shay Cody

We work closely with the management side and also meet Ministers on a regular basis. The general secretary of congress is meeting the leader of the European Union in Berlin tomorrow. We have not picked up any signal that matters have reached the stage where it is in anyone's mind to rip up the agreement. We cannot predict the future forever, but we have not picked up a signal which suggests we are in trouble.

The Croke Park agreement is ahead of where it needed to be from the troika's point of view. That is the important measure. We are significantly ahead of the targets set for us. As long as we remain in that position, we should tell the people that while they will continue to face challenges, they will be manageable. It is our judgment that provided everybody comes to the table with clean hands, the agreement is capable of surviving.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

Every target set for the agreement has been reached and, in many cases, exceeded. We expect to meet all the targets the Government has set for this year and will probably be slightly disappointed if we do not exceed them.

In so far as the delegates are here to warn against a further attack on the pay of public sector workers, I am 100% with them. I will back them all the way, as will the United Left Alliance and, I suspect, quite a few of the other Independent Members. Contrary to the mythology and demonisation which has occurred for several years, public sector workers have been slaughtered through the imposition of pay cuts and pension taxes, alongside significantly increased demands. I am nauseated by their demonisation.

One could argue that many of the problematic practices within the public service emanated from the desire on the part of the Government and those at the top of the public service to mimic the private sector. The attitude was that if CEOs in the banks and the corporate sector were being paid €500,000 or €1 million, those at the top of the public sector should be paid the same and that politicians should earn more than President Obama. This nonsense was not driven by unions or public sector workers on low or middle incomes. I suspect the delegates would agree that no one in the trade unions, or on the left for that matter, would oppose reform in this regard. Frankly, much of that carry-on was alien to the public service in the first place.

Perhaps the delegates might comment on something very important. Many of the problems - I still think many of the poorly spent funds must be examined - stem from the degree to which public services are being privatised or contracted out. I have tabled parliamentary questions on this issue to try to get answers. I have some evidence that in so far as one gets rid of directly employed public service workers and replaces them with agency workers, it costs the State more and, in many cases, the quality of service is seriously undermined.

I am on the delegates' side of the fence, but are they claiming too much success for the Croke Park agreement? I am coming at this issue not from the angle of those who wish to unpick the agreement and attack the pay of low and middle income workers but from the point of view of whether it has protected public services and unions' members or is part of a strategy to deal with the economic crisis. The unions talk a great deal about the need for an alternative strategy. Is the Croke Park agreement helping in that regard?

At the level of services, one cannot take 38,000 people out of the public service and not have a deterioration in services. Is it not the case that there has been a deterioration in services? Some 7,000 have left the health service and that figure will increase to 15,000. Is there not a connection between this and the fact that ambulance services are being removed in west Cork and that local accident and emergency services are being downgraded throughout the country? There must be a connection. There must also be a connection with pupil-teacher ratios disimproving, caps on the numbers of special needs assistants, reduced social housing maintenance services and so forth. In the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown area the maintenance crews have been steadily run down, as a consequence of which council houses are boarded up for months on end, much to the anger of local residents who are desperate to obtain a council house. The maintenance workers tell me this is directly related to the fact that there are not enough maintenance workers directly employed. The work is contracted out and the tendering process takes forever. Half of the time the contractor who gets the job goes bust. He or she must be taking a slice of the profit. We cannot protect services if we allow that number of public service workers to be sucked out of the system. The medical card system is a disaster. We have been inundated with telephone calls since the service was centralised in Finglas. People cannot get their medical cards and appeals take forever. This is due to the cuts in staff. I do not see, therefore, why we should defend the agreement.

That leads to the central point I wish to make. The unions have, correctly, criticised the folly of austerity in general. The ICTU has produced a document entitled Austerity is Not Working, in which it makes the point that any sane person would make, that if one takes €3.5 billion out of the budget for this and the next two years, one is essentially choking off the possibility of economic recovery. One is doing enormous damage if one reduces people's income and the number of public service workers. Furthermore, if one lets the retirement age be raised to 68 years without firing a shot in resistance - all of Europe was in flames, yet there was no resistance here - is that not doing damage to the employment prospects of younger people? If public service workers are forced to work for three years longer, surely there will be fewer jobs at the other end for young people. That is obviously the case, but we are not resisting. That is not to mention how regressive it is that people have to work longer. If the unions state, on the one hand, that austerity is damaging and not working and that we must move away from it if we are to have any chance of economic recovery, how can they oversee, on the other, a deal that is essentially managing or imposing that austerity? I do not understand the connection between the two. I see a contradiction in it, although the delegates will no doubt say it is realpolitik and that they must do it.

Mr. Cody has made the point that we are broke and must accept this. It is bad that the unions are accepting that argument in their document. The delegates might say it is secondary to the details that follow, but I do not believe the unions should accept that argument. It is the argument used to justify the current austerity measures. Surely we should point out that the reasons we have a deficit are, first, the actions of the banks and, second, the rich are not taxed enough in this country and too many are paid too much at the top. There is also the fact - this is something the unions would state - that we cannot bridge the deficit unless there is investment and a stimulus in the economy to put people back to work. It is worrying that the unions use a phrase such as "the country is broke". The country has plenty of wealth and resources; the problem is presented by their distribution.

Given that the unions are stating austerity is not working and is wrong and counterproductive and that we must move in an alternative direction, why are they not more active in mobilising protests and resistance to the austerity agenda? I do not understand it. Before the general election, they mobilised people in significant numbers on the streets; when they asked them to come out, they did. Now, as the austerity agenda continues, even though the unions were so critical of it, they refuse to call people out onto the streets in a significant way to resist it. Why are the unions not doing this?

Ms Patricia King

I am not sure if I can reply to all of the issues the Deputy raised, but I will attempt to deal with the industrial relations matters. He is correct to focus on the matter of outsourcing because it is extremely worrying throughout the public sector. It was an issue long before the Croke Park agreement was even dreamed of. The Deputy would have more erudite views on it than I would be able to cobble together, but my judgment, based on the work I do every day, is that this outsourcing, both before the agreement was devised and now while it is in force, is built on a philosophy driven by some political parties. They drive it strongly within the system. There are certain key public sector managers who drive it also. I would love to see a debate between the Deputy and some of these key public sector managers on the matter because they would be able to satisfy his need for information on why they do it far better than I could. I argue this issue nearly every day.

On the point made by the Deputy about the delivery of services, in the long term this is entirely the wrong route to take. Take the example of the United Kingdom and the outsourcing of cleaning services in the health sector. It is now well known that it has led to the huge increase in the spread of disease and so forth. They do not have control over the delivery of cleaning services in hospitals and so forth; rather, they are depending on a third party. However, Mr. Private Sector comes in, the deal is done, the minimum wage is paid and the service is delivered. There are two good aspects to it from a public sector manager's point of view. First, they need not count the workers in the numbers anymore and, second, they do not have responsibility. It is a case of "hands off, go away, we do not want to know about it." It is an awful managerial theory in the delivery of services.

I would love to see this debate taking place on the floor of the House. It needs to happen and have much wider coverage. It is a disease that is creeping into the public service. I referred to weak management. It is a sure sign of weak management when that solution is sought. One knows one is in trouble when one starts hearing that.

The agreement is not as robust as I would like it to be but it is robust enough. There is a two-page section which refers to service delivery options. Before one decides to outsource something, one has to do X, Y or Z. The parties are only now starting to get to grips with the implementation of the agreement. The committee might know a directive was issued recently by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to the effect that non-essential services have to be outsourced. I responded and said the Department needs to look at the terms of the agreement and how things can be done.

When something is outsourced - there have been several instances of it - the people who used to do the job have to cling on within the Croke Park agreement, which is where the Deputy and I might have a difference of opinion about its value. Such people have nothing to cling on to but the Croke Park agreement, which states people cannot be sacked. They are redeployed and if there was no Croke Park agreement, I respectfully suggest the next move would be to outsource services and sack people. The clause in the agreement preventing this is extremely valuable.

It is a problem for some people. The Deputy referred to a particular area and I know he knows there are some masters of this craft. They want to be able to tell people their jobs are gone. The Croke Park agreement stops people from doing that and they hate it. That is what I regard as the valuable piece of the agreement. I am not suggesting the Deputy does not regard it as valuable; rather, in the job I do every day it is very valuable to be able to tell people they might have powers to do X, Y or Z but they do not have the power to sack people. Every public servant recognises that is valuable.

I would love to see the Houses and people with authority do an assessment of what has been outsourced and where value for money has been found, whether it is cutting grass in local authorities, tarmacking roads or whatever. I would love to see a study of what such people were paid. They were paid half nothing to do such jobs. Taxpayers' money is supplemented by this sort of behaviour.

A half job most of the time.

Ms Patricia King

I would not go that far because workers do their best depending on the training they have, whether it is making widgets or tarmacking a road. I am glad the Deputy referred to outsourcing because it is a big issue in the State. One can see moves are being made across the water to privatise roads. As a State we keep in mind what goes on in our neighbour. It gives one the shivers when one sees things being privatised because one knows what the next move will be.

I will not get into an exchange on austerity because it would be silly of me to do that. I suspect I know who would win and it would not be me. It was valuable for the Deputy to raise outsourcing because it is a major element in the agreement.

Mr. Shay Cody

A specific point was made about medical cards which illustrates something broader. The decision to centralise medical card processing was made by the last Government. Our union, which represents the staff working in the medical card section, formed the view that it was a disaster waiting to happen. We lobbied large numbers of Deputies, Senators and councillors and were entirely unsuccessful in gaining traction for the view that a problem was looming.

There was a well-intentioned narrative that the process would be centralised and would have computers and helplines. We told those who made the decision that the ball would be dropped because local intelligence, knowledge and accessibility would be lost. We campaigned on that basis but lost because the change went ahead. Our task was to make sure that under the Croke Park agreement people who lost medical card work around the country were redeployed in other areas, as Ms King said. People were conscripted into Finglas from far and wide to do the work and we needed to make sure that happened within the confines of the Croke Park agreement.

A trade union can campaign about austerity or the centralisation of medical cards. By and large, other people take decisions on these matters and we often must, in a practical way and with some compromise, enter into collective agreements to make the best of things. That tension has existed for the 150 years we have been existence. The Croke Park agreement is the current manifestation of it.

We have a policy position on the economy in Ireland and Europe. As I said, the general secretary of congress is part of a delegation that will articulate that view tomorrow in Berlin. Ultimately, we have to do deals with private sector and public service employers based on the current situation. If that can be changed through campaigning and lobbying it is well and good, but in our day-to-day work we have to enter into necessary compromises.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

If the Deputy wants to have a debate with ICTU about its economic policy, perhaps the committee should consider extending an invitation to it to return in that capacity. If it does, the committee will probably see me again. I would be happy to have a debate in that context but we are before the committee to talk about the Croke Park agreement.

I ask everybody to tighten up on their replies and questions so we can complete the session within a reasonable time.

I wish to address Ms King who described herself as an agitator. I have heard a lot more colourful language used in the House to describe her.

It is a compliment.

Absolutely. She said her goal was the preservation of pay and conditions rather than numbers. Is that correct?

Ms Patricia King

I was talking about the preservation of services. I thought I made it exceptionally clear that the preservation of front line services is at the bottom of all of the discussions we have.

Numbers did not come into it.

Ms Patricia King

Numbers are not what we are concerned about.

Mr. Cody said we are broke. One has to ask why excessive sick leave and a review of allowances has not been dealt with until now. Sick leave costs €550 million per year; €488 million is paid in respect of certified sick leave and a further €63 million on uncertified six leave. Those figures came from Mr. Robert Watt.

Employees in the public service can currently avail of up to seven days of uncertified sick leave in a 12 month period. They can also receive full pay for certified sick leave absence for up to six months in one year and half pay thereafter, subject to a maximum of 12 months paid sick leave in any period of four years. We are effectively in the third year of the Croke Park agreement and it is only now that sick leave will be addressed. Why is that? There is no reason to give the percentage or the number of days lost in the different sectors.

I refer to an article by Dan O'Brien on 3 March 2012 regarding pay rates and labour costs. In the final three months of 2011, average hourly pay rates stood at €28.64 in the public sector while in the private sector it was €19.48 per hour. This shows a difference of 50% between the rates. The delegation has stated that members of the trade unions have effectively taken two pay cuts. I spoke to a public servant recently who told me, "What cuts were taken away were replaced by increments". It was essentially a pay freeze and not a pay decrease. I ask the delegation's views on what a public sector senior manager told me. He said that if they were allowed to reduce numbers they could remove 20% of the staff and increase productivity. I take Ms King's point about the guarantee of a job for life. However, there is deadwood in every sector. I have a business background and I know that some staff cannot be dismissed and they are pulling down other staff.

Mr. Shay Cody

I will begin with the question of sick leave. I wonder why it has taken until now to have a discussion on sick leave because sick leave was not covered in the Croke Park agreement. The Government in its reform agenda announced at Christmas put sick leave on the table and the trade unions have said we are prepared to discuss it. I suggest we deal with facts as opposed to mythology. There is an overall facility whereby public servants could avail of up to seven days' uncertified sick leave in a 12-month period. The Comptroller and Auditor General did a report on the Civil Service a number of years ago in which he indicated that the average amount of uncertified sick leave across the Civil Service is one day per annum. This does not indicate that everybody took a day; some people took more days and some took fewer. The average across the total Civil Service staff of 30,000 is one day uncertified sick leave. The same applies with regard to certified sick leave arrangements. The arrangements for certified sick leave in the Civil Service, which holds very detailed accounts, amounts to in the region of approximately two weeks per annum. Figures have shown variations in other sectors. We are prepared to discuss this issue but we have not procrastinated and it would be entirely improper to blame the Croke Park agreement. It was only put to the trade unions at Christmas as a Government initiative. It was not in the Croke Park agreement.

Senator Sheahan stated that public service managers were able to identify to him a staff deadwood of 20%. I am sure one could also identify a 20% deadwood among public service managers. Indeed, we could probably be quite specific on some of them.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Shay Cody

We know our place in some aspects. The point is the same as with sick leave. It is inevitable that people abuse the system. In our view, it is the responsibility of management to manage this because they have the power to withdraw the facility for any uncertified sick leave if they thought the system was being milked. They have the right, on receipt of a sick certificate from any doctor, to refer a person to what I call, broadly speaking, the company doctor. If this does not happen, then public servants or their trade unions should not be blamed if managers do not have the gumption to address those matters. If there are issues of underperformance, whether at managerial or at any other level, I would make the same point. I hope the Senator challenged this famous manager who said there was deadwood of 20% by asking what was he doing about that situation because the Croke Park agreement does not guarantee people a job for life; one has to perform.

Ms King said that people have a guarantee that they will not be made redundant and that is an entirely different matter. Redundancy means a person is made redundant against his or her wishes in circumstances which have nothing to do with his or her personal behaviour or work performance. If a worker behaves in a way that is unsatisfactory to management, such a worker can be sacked and this happens. However, there is a view that sometimes management prefers to complain about a situation rather than address it. I refer the committee to the sick leave issue. We need to have an understanding about what we are discussing.

Senator Sheahan referred to Dan O'Brien's article. This was one of the bizarre articles which described a 50% differential as 100%. It is clear that somebody cannot count. It is a well established fact right across the world that a comparison between public service employees and the generality of people in the private sector must be a comparison of their qualifications, their ages, company size and many other factors. I will cite the two big parts of the Irish public service which are health and education, as examples. The great majority of people working in those services require and have a third level qualification as they are teachers, doctors, nurses, etc. There is no point in comparing their salaries with people who do jobs of a different nature in the private sector. There needs to be a fair comparison between people with a similar requirement and level of responsibility in private companies. This is an example of lazy journalism which is making a simple comparison of average wages in the public and private sectors and is comparing apples and oranges.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

I was not entirely sure of the point being made by Senator Sheahan in his initial remarks about my colleague. I am hoping it was indeed a compliment because I confess-----

Mr. Tom Geraghty

-----I automatically bristled. I will deal with the point about Dan O'Brien's article. What his article and many other articles quote is information provided by the Central Statistics Office. What they do not quote are the pages in the same reports that state these statistics should not be used to make comparisons between public and private because it is a comparison of apples and oranges. Those reports always give this warning. As Mr. Cody said, one must consider a whole range of factors and a significant factor in public service employment is that some of the low paid employments do not exist in the public service.

I apologise. I always regarded Dan O'Brien to be an eminent economist and journalist but I will stand corrected by Mr. Geraghty.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

This may not be a fashionable view but I suggest as an exercise in valid comparisons that a benchmarking exercise has been carried out twice since 2000. The benchmarking body looked at workers in the public service and the qualifications required and compared them with people doing like work or work of equal value in the private sector. The first benchmarking report identified that public service pay was generally behind those in the private sector. This was not particularly surprising, given that the economy was taking off at the time and there was a lag between the sectors. The second benchmarking exercise identified there was very little difference between the sectors, when a comparison was made between similar workers.

Ms Patricia King

I have not had the pleasure of meeting Senator Sheahan before. In regard to compulsory redundancies, an employment scenario where there is a restriction on such redundancies has a whole plethora of consequences, most of which are positive from a worker point of view. That was the point being made. It is a valuable principle in my view, as I am sure it is for the vast majority of public service workers. We have had a great deal of discussion about employee morale and so on. Making any move into the territory of compulsory redundancies would bring us into a whole new place. As someone who spends considerable time going in and out of private sector work places, where compulsory redundancy is often a feature, I am aware that such events can cause morale to go through the floor in terms of how the thing is managed and so on. It is the worst possible scenario and I hope no Member of the Oireachtas would advocate it. I am not suggesting that any member of this committee has advocated it. It is my hope that nobody would propose that this is a space into which the public service should ever go. I do not recall making any reference to "a job for life", as referred to by Senator Sheahan.

To give members comfort on this issue, as a trade union official, one is of course always agitating for change and transformation. I have had to narrow the bounds of my concern in terms of what people think about me to include only my husband and two daughters. It is a much safer approach to take.

I thank the delegates for a very educational presentation and discussion. The issue I am prompted to raise relates to the bigger picture. There is no doubt that the unions have great resources and experience within their organisations. In the context of the Croke Park agreement and its delivery, is there an opportunity for them to present fresh, pragmatic proposals which consider the conditions of the economy in a broader sense? I propose that they might consider three questions in this context. First, in their opinion and based on their experience, how can the economy be facilitated to grow? Second, how can the State increase its revenues, bearing in mind the constraints and requirements in regard to the first issue, that is, growth? Third, how can the costs of running the public service be reduced, bearing in mind both of the above?

I am proposing that the unions take a blank page and, based on their experience and taking account of what has been delivered to date, come up with something new. In other words, they should step into the shoes of Government and consider, from the benefit of all their knowledge and experience, what can be done, by the public, semi-State and private sectors, to grow our economy, increase its revenues and ensure the delivery of services in a more efficient and cost-effective way. The delegates have very valuable views to offer on all of these matters, bearing in mind the issues that have been raised, including outsourcing, maintaining employment and morale and sharpening up and energising middle and senior management. Would the delegates consider entering into a discussion with the private sector on how a temporary pay reduction for the highest paid staff in the public sector, perhaps for a two or three-year emergency period, might be matched by a temporary tax levy on higher paid staff in the private sector for the same period?

Mr. Shay Cody

This takes us into a slightly broader area than that encompassed in the remit of the public services committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. Within ICTU there are different sectors which make up the overall body. The overall congress position is that we must have a growth strategy. As I pointed out, the general secretary will be articulating that in Berlin tomorrow. I understand that the British Chancellor of the Exchequer will today announce his Government's endorsement of a proposition to utilise British pension funds as an investment vehicle to stimulate the economy. This is something colleagues in SIPTU and ICTU have been articulating for a long time. There is some €70 billion in Irish private pension funds mainly sitting abroad and mainly underperforming. If we could bring some of that money home and invest it in the economy, perhaps with some type of guaranteed rate of return on State infrastructure projects, it would provide a useful stimulatory mechanism. Nor would it be rocket science to develop something like that.

In regard to taxation policy, ICTU's long-standing position is that for the duration of the crisis, while we are in the bailout, there is a compelling argument for a special levy on incomes above €100,000 per year. Such a levy would catch people in the public service, as we discussed earlier, as well as those in other sectors who seem even more resistant to pay reductions, including politically sensitive sectors such as finance. It is a sore point for the trade union movement that such people are swanning about the place at various social functions without any obligation to make the necessary contributions. Our simple proposition is that for the duration of the bailout, there should be a special tax on earnings above a certain level.

This feeds into the question of the cost of running the public service. This is not an easy space for the trade unions but the bottom line is that the Croke Park agreement, implemented under duress, is giving rise to a smarter delivery of public service. That is not to say its delivery is ideal across the board. There will inevitably be pockets of problems and pockets of resistance. However, the reality is that the crisis has created an environment in the public sector where the number one item on the agenda is to ensure services are delivered in the most cost-efficient way. We all know that in the boom times, whether in private companies or in the public service, that was not the main priority. Now, however, it is the chief concern within the public sector. The issue is to capture what has emerged from that.

My proposal is that there should be a conversation between people on high incomes in the private sector and their counterparts in the public sector. The unions should lead by example in encouraging that conversation. Setting an example in that way will provide an opportunity to pull in the belt.

Ms Patricia King

It is important to note that within the public sector, whatever people might think, there is at least - rightly so, because it is taxpayers' money - full transparency in regard to what people earn. If one refers to The Irish Times yesterday, one will see pockets of resistance where deals are done to secure higher salaries for certain persons than what is directed under various caps. However, on the private sector side there is no transparency at all. In Britain, by comparison, the High Pay Commission provides a degree of transparency in terms of private sector earnings. No such information is available in this jurisdiction, save in the case of the banking sector where there has been a forced transparency in regard to what certain characters earn. That transparency was required because of taxpayers’ investment in the banks.

Regarding public sector pay, if we accept that 80% of people in the public sector - I assure members that the figures we have given are correct - earn €60,000 or less and that in addition to pay cuts and pension levies, these workers are, like all other taxpayers, eligible for the universal social charge and so on, then we can see that their ability to spend has decreased in the past two to three years in the same way as that of every other worker. Any Government, regardless of colour, faced with the dilemmas that currently present must identify these realities. Any notion of further cutting, etc., has an overall effect in respect of the economy.

Mr. Cody has outlined, in very succinct terms, our view in respect of those earning €100,000 and over and what the Government should do in this regard. However, I would not underestimate what we believe to be the value of the proposition we made in respect of the ability of the stimulus to come from the pension funds and to use the incentive of allowing those funds which became involved to be exempted from the pension fund levy. We were involved in deep discussions in many places before that proposition was formulated. We had discussions with the industry, etc., to discover whether we could put it together. It was not just thrown together as a proposal. A great deal of research was engaged in and many discussions took place with various interested parties. Just when we reached the point where people might have been obliged to make a decision, the vested interests in the area came to the fore. To us, that was a real tragedy. This is the only area where one will find the relevant levels of capital swishing about the place. The Government could have access to that money in order to make it work better for this country rather than having it invested in other European bonds and so on.

We have been asked what the trade unions would do and I have indicated what we would do. We are of the view that the committee should advocate strongly for this to happen because we believe it would give rise to a whole new dimension of assistance to the Government of the day and allow the latter to attract inward movement. We are all aware that what we are seeing at present is an economy which is shrinking. The more it shrinks, the worse matters will become until someone decides to put a stop to what is happening and then suggests how we might push the economy back up again.

I agree with Ms King. What she has suggested should be advanced in an invitational way. We must take cognisance of the fact that there still exists in this country a "them and us" mentality. Let us make it a singular mentality. There are two strands in the single rope. One cannot sell the State-----

I apologise for interrupting but we are straying into the area of ideology. We must concentrate on matters relating to the implementation body.

I second Deputy Boyd Barrett's proposal to the effect that we should consider the position with regard to the outsourcing of work from the public sector which has occurred since the Croke Park agreement came into being. The Deputy referred to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown but it has been brought to my attention that there has been a great deal of outsourcing in Clare. Accusations have been made - I accept that these are based on anecdotal evidence - to the effect that some of those who have obtained the contracts for this outsourced work are employing people who are not, from a health and safety perspective, properly trained and some of whom are in receipt of jobseeker's benefit. It makes it much less expensive for contractors to carry out work if they are only obliged to pay people such as those to whom I refer small amounts of money. This is a matter the committee should consider, perhaps in the context of a couple of local authorities. I do not know whether we have the power to examine the activities of those authorities or whether responsibility in that regard lies with the Joint Committee on the Environment, Transport, Culture and the Gaeltacht. Perhaps the two committees could engage in a joint investigation.

I was slightly late in arriving and I apologise if the matter to which I am about to refer has already been dealt with. There has been a great deal of discussion with regard to high-earning public servants. I accept that assistant principal officers and others who occupy higher grades in the public service are earning in excess of €92,000 per annum and that their remuneration is linked to that which Deputies receive. Is anyone in a position to indicate the number of people within the public service who earn in excess of €92,000?

Mr. Shay Cody

Before the end of February, some 6,500 people in the public service were earning more than €100,000 per year. I suspect that people who get to that level tend to be further into their careers and closer to retirement age. That category probably suffered a bigger reduction than the generality but we do not have the up-to-date figures in this regard. Broadly speaking, it is somewhere in the region of 6,000. In other words, that is 2% of the public service workforce and half of these are hospital consultants. If one takes the latter out of it as a specialised, traditionally highly paid group of people - wherever they work in the world - then in broad terms one is stating that 1% of the generality of the public service workforce earn six-figure sums. We are not here to represent their views. Broadly speaking, the position is that if people have a problem with that, they should tax those involved because by doing so they would also catch those in the private sector who earn these amounts.

I apologise for my late arrival and I welcome our guests. I wish to focus on the theme of a common purpose. Mr. Cody referred to the opportunities to which the Croke Park agreement has given rise in the context of driving efficiencies within the public sector. Obviously, this must also happen in the private sector. In the context of the Croke Park agreement, what are the benchmarks by which members of the public might judge what is happening? I am speaking as a public representative and I am of the view that in light of some of the work they do, it would not be possible for us to function without good public servants. Some public servants availed of the early retirement scheme and in my opinion they are an enormous loss because they have taken with them a reservoir of knowledge.

In respect of bringing about efficiencies, when do we reach the point where such efficiencies are manifest in order that the public can see what is occurring? In other words, what system is in place to ensure that not only is the public service efficient but it is seen to be efficient? How do our guests perceive this happening in the context of the Croke Park agreement? Will they indicate how they believe the agreement will evolve over the next 12 months?

Mr. Shay Cody

The measure the external world tends to use is whether something is delivering money savings. That is where the interest lies. Let us consider some of the relevant statistics. From 2006 to date, the population of the country has increased by approximately 330,000. Obviously, this puts pressure on public services such as those relating to midwifery, education, etc. We are all familiar with the unfortunate fact that the number of people on the live register has increased by almost 300,000 in the same period. In addition - and leaving aside processing issues - there are an additional 500,000 medical cards in the system. The number of students in institutes of technology, universities and other third level institutions has increased by 15%, while the number of staff has decreased by 7%. The number of prisoners increased by 400, or approximately 10%, during the period to which I refer. People in the health system will be aware that the number of day cases in hospitals or outpatient clinics has increased a great deal.

All of this has occurred when numbers in the public service have been in decline. Ultimately, that is a more profound set of figures-----

I accept that. In the context of where matters currently stand and in light of the early retirement scheme, it is obvious that cost savings have been made. However, what I am interested in discovering is how the public will be able to consider what is happening and realise that not only is change coming about through the reduction in numbers but also that further efficiencies will be achieved in the public sector.

Mr. Shay Cody

A good example in this regard is the fact that, regardless of whether we like it, we are on a journey which involves reducing the number of public servants. We are approximately 70% of the way along that road. In order for what is envisaged in this regard to work, it will be necessary - as will be happening with the Garda Síochána next month - to introduce new rosters. This is something of a chicken-and-egg situation. Unless new rosters are introduced across the Garda Síochána, it is obvious that there will be no gardaí available at the times when they are really needed, namely, on Friday nights. With the introduction of new rosters, it is possible to design a system under which the missing gardaí, as part of their contribution to the overall reduction in numbers of 40,000-----

I presume they are all built into the Croke Park process.

Mr. Shay Cody

They are in the Croke Park process but the non-headline part of the process is the recalibration of the work - the reassignments, redeployments, new ratios and new rosters - that has to take place to deliver the service with fewer people and, in some circumstances, to meet a greater public demand.

Is there a timeframe for that happening within the Croke Park agreement? I am talking about systems.

Mr. Shay Cody

I will give the example of a system. It is no secret that the implementation body has been anxious for some time to have a new Garda roster implemented. The union and management side, apart from the gardaí, are happy that it will be implemented next month. That is not to say it was not a difficult issue for the Garda Representative Association and Garda management but we would have considered it to be a crucial enabler of delivering the service. I cite that as an example. There will be similar recalibrations in other parts of the public service. I mentioned that some of the big agenda items will be in the health services this year.

Ms Patricia King

If there is a decrease in numbers, in round terms, of 23,500 during the course of the agreement from 2010 to 2014, and there is a transformation of the system, which will include all types of efficiencies and flexibilities, to deliver the service with 23,500 fewer staff, that is the size of the transformation in numbers we are talking about. That means doing more with fewer staff. A reflection of the achievement of that transformation would be if at the end of the agreement we were to get into that space. That is the scale of the drop in numbers and the size of the flexibility that has to happen to deliver services to the citizens of the State. That is the challenge of the agreement.

I understand all that, but if there is a reduction in numbers, how do we ensure that the quality of service delivered to the public does not suffer and that the necessary measures are in place to deliver the services?

Ms Patricia King

That is the kernel of the agreement, namely, to have the flexibility to do precisely what the Deputy has described to deliver the services. That involves re-rostering, rearranging hours, cutting hours where they need to be cut and rejigging them to other areas where they need to be increased, cutting overtime but having it in places where it is needed and not in places where it was needed ten years ago but is not needed now. All of that has to be managed at a micro level in the thousands of employments in the public sector that we talked about earlier. That is the vehicle in terms of what the agreement means. Tens of thousands of workers will get involved in that engagement in the four-year period of the agreement to deliver that process with those fewer numbers without conflict in so far as one can say that.

As union leaders, do the witnesses believe the systems are robust enough at a macro and a micro level to ensure that transformation can be delivered? That is kernel of my question.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

It would be foolish of us to say that in every single instance every piece will fall right. The public service is a hugely diverse range of different organisations and inevitably from time to time difficulties will arise, but by and large the answer to that question is "Yes". We will continue to build on the success of the agreement thus far. We have been dealing with the consequences of taking a huge amount of money and a huge number of people out of the delivery of public services and it is a matter of continuing that process through to the end for the duration of this agreement. We are learning as we go along and issues arise that we had not foreseen but we have built a fairly sustainable track record in this regard already.

Mr. Shay Cody

If we were all asked at the start of this process to indicate the areas we were nervous about, most of us would have been nervous about the Prison Service because of the history there. I believe it would be a shared view among trade union people on the implementation and the management side that we have been consistently impressed by the work that has been done between the Prison Officers Association and the management in the Prison Service to open up new roster arrangements, have lower manning levels and to do it without any acrimony or the traditional argy-bargy that goes with that. A good deal of work has been done on both sides to facilitate this. We have been consistently impressed with the ability of that service, which is dealing with more prisoners and yet is managing it well, bearing in mind that in circumstances prior to the Croke Park agreement this would have been like the Battle of the Somme.

Mr. Tom Geraghty

Obviously the experience varies from one sector to another. To take the health sector, the challenge will be to continue to deliver health services at a reasonably high level despite the fact that €750 million has been taken out of the sector and that overtime, allowances and agency expenditure will be reduced. How can that be done? One needs to review rosters, how a particular throughput is managed and all of that and it never stops. Once the economy fell off a cliff, as it were, and the Government was faced with all these difficulties, inevitably everybody in the system had to look at how they did things because the money was no longer there simply to throw at it.

I wish to add a few comments. The witnesses have given the unions' point of view on this. I would like to make it clear that another strong view also exists. We took a policy decision when we came into government to reduce numbers rather than reducing pay, which was in line with what was happening in the Croke Park process, but it is clear that will only work, as the witnesses have alluded to, with the implementation of the Croke Park agreement in full. The witnesses have said that the Croke Park agreement is exceeding its targets but there are some big sectors within the scope of the agreement where changes have not come about quickly enough. There are many sectors within the health services where the changes have not come about quickly enough and that will impact on the delivery of services. We do not have the Croke Park agreement for students, pensioners and patients, so to speak. I have to counterpoint what has been said by pointing to concerns I have that changes provided for under the Croke Park agreement are not moving to the degree I believe is necessary to protect services in the way the witnesses mentioned. I acknowledge that some great things have been done and that has made a massive difference but we should not clap ourselves on the back too much. There is a need to move processes under Croke Park agreement more quickly to have certainty that we can protect patients.

Mr. Shay Cody

One of the issues with which the health service is struggling is the fact that Government policy continues to change. Since the Croke Park process began the Government has decided that it wants to abolish the HSE and there has been a move towards the new pillars. With due respect to everybody, it is very difficult to manage all those changes of policy while driving changes forward and discovering that - as I know from my union's point of view, as one is deep into discussions on integrated service with a policy position to hang the local community care out of the local hospitals, so to speak, which was going to involve a great deal of reconfiguration - all of this was to stop suddenly because there was a different political direction, which is entirely legitimate, to the effect that we would not move in the direction of integrated services and that we would move towards clusters of hospitals which would be separate and independent from the PCCC. I know that an enormous amount of work went into integrated services which turned out to be a complete waste of time because there is now a different policy direction from the Minister.

Mr. Cody is saying that the union was basing its decisions on the announcement of integrated service areas in the health service as being the policy direction, but the policy decision on the clusters, to which he referred, has not yet been concluded and is not due to be concluded for a while. Is he saying that matters are on hold until that happens?

Mr. Shay Cody

No. It is a little like the famous cartoon character that runs over the cliff with its legs still pedalling away but the ground is no longer under its feet.

The Road Runner.

Mr. Shay Cody

The truth from the point of view of managers in the health system, union representatives and staff is that they are at an impasse until there is absolute clarity on the policy direction. It is clear that the Government is moving in the direction of clusters of hospitals and trusts. Everyone knows that and it is putting a significant halt to much work that had gone into integrated services. That is entirely legitimate, but because a lot of policy changes are emerging in the health area it would be unfair to start fingering health as an area that is not delivering under the Croke Park agreement.

One of the things I noted from my meeting with the SDU was the poor quality of much of the information we were getting on the number of people working in the health service and the number of procedures and attendees across the hospitals. Does Mr. Cody acknowledge that?

Mr. Shay Cody

Yes. Part of the problem, as Mr. Geraghty indicated, is that we have so many different employers and the systems do not talk to each other. Many of the hospitals, which are not State hospitals, have entirely different IT systems and the sharing of information is difficult. It is a struggle for them to say how many people work in the health system. It is even a struggle to tell us as trade union representatives in a consistent way how many people are paying their union subscriptions because we still do not have a centralised system. It is very difficult.

One of the problems is that for a country of 4.5 million people, an employer that in effect is an umbrella body for 100,000 people is probably disproportionate in size and we just do not have the systems available in big countries. That is not a defence of the system. I just make the point. Where people have been challenged to come to the table in the health area, such as in the medical laboratories or radiology services, they have done their business. Work concluded in that respect last year and will be acknowledged in the report that will issue in June. Significant business has been done on a focused basis for those people in the health service.

There are problems with standardising annual leave and nurses' rosters across the system. Is there a certain amount of resentment about the fact that the Irish Hospital Consultants Association is outside the system? Do the unions feel their members are making more of a commitment to sorting out the problem than hospital consultants?

Mr. Shay Cody

The hospital consultants who are not part of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions have come in under the umbrella of the Croke Park agreement for whatever reasons. We do not have dialogue with them. The Irish Medical Organisation represents a certain number of hospital consultants and they are part of the congress family. At the end of the day issues such as how to manage consultancy services are very political. We are all aware of that. The Minister for Health has said to leave such issues to him and that he has some initiatives in his back pocket.

On outsourcing, Ms King gave some examples relating to the UK and the private sector. Most hospital cleaning in this country is still done within the public sector.

Ms Patricia King

I do not agree with that. Many hospitals have outsourced cleaning to privateers. The cleaning in most of the larger main hospitals in Dublin has been privatised. One also has the privatisation of catering services, maintenance and ground maintenance in hospitals.

In the local authority sector, in the main but not exclusively, refuse collection has been privatised. There are many instances of road maintenance going into the privateer scenario. It is not exclusive to those areas; they are just examples of where it is happening. There is a fair degree of activity. Based on the communication of the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform I would safely say that people are being encouraged to come forward with proposals. My response to him was that he must act within the terms of the agreement.

We will leave it at that. We have had a good afternoon's session. I am sorry we kept the witnesses for so long but it was well worth it to clarify issues. I thank Mr. Shay Cody, Mr. Tom Geraghty, Ms Patricia King and Ms Sheila Nunan for attending and for briefing members on the issues at play. The meeting was good. I enjoyed the engagement with the witnesses. We have had contact unofficially on the implementation of the Croke Park agreement and I always found those involved to be forthright about what needed to be said. I hope that continues because one of my greatest criticisms of the benchmarking agreement was that all the background information was destroyed when the agreement came into force. I accept that was not necessarily the fault of the union side, as IBEC was not willing to have any information it provided made public, but it left a bad taste in the mouth when one could not review the background information on how the agreement was reached. We must ensure that in the future we keep accountability and transparency to the forefront in all our discussions. I thank the witnesses for attending.

Mr. Shay Cody

We are more than happy to meet the Vice Chairman and his colleagues any time, either formally or informally.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.05 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 27 March 2012.
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