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Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Mar 2018

Proposed Sale of Non-Performing Loans to Private Investment Funds (Vulture Funds): Permanent TSB

I welcome Mr. Masding and his colleagues.

Before we begin, I wish to advise the witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. Masding to make his opening remarks.

I wish to clarify a point. It is a comprehensive and lengthy opening statement. I understand we have to be finished by 11.30 a.m. Is it possible to abbreviate it? Otherwise, we are looking at up to half an hour of a presentation.

We have to conclude by 11.30 a.m., Mr. Masding. It is critical that we get to the heart of the matter. Could you accommodate Deputy McGrath's suggestion by hitting the main points in an abridged fashion so that we can proceed with the questioning?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I am happy to do that.

I am joined by Eamonn Crowley, chief financial officer; Shane O'Sullivan, group director of operations; Stephen Groarke, chief risk officer; and Greg O'Leary from the asset management unit. I thank the committee for inviting us this morning to talk about the proposed sale of non-performing loans. We believe this is an important matter in particular in respect of the ongoing relationship with institutional investors and the minimum standards required for a fully functioning secure lending market. We believe this really gets to the heart of the issue of whether Ireland sees its banks as institutions managed for sustainable value creation and for providing the lifeblood of commerce and economic activity.

We should be clear at the outset that the fiduciary responsibility of this team is to the owners of the business. We are here to maximise the return for all Irish taxpayers. I intend to share my time with Shane O'Sullivan, who will briefly outline the progress we have achieved in the area of mortgage arrears management.

I will outline some key points. At the beginning of 2012, the troika and the Government mandated that long-term forbearance was the primary tool in managing mortgage arrears. This was sensible for two reasons. First, it avoided widespread repossessions. Second, the capital cost to the banks of capital forbearance was considered the least-worst alternative for all Irish taxpayers. There was recognition of course that even long-term forbearance is subsidised by all taxpayers, as long-term treatments do not necessarily pay the full level of interest or capital on the loan. It is important to remind everyone here that Irish banks were capitalised by the taxpayer on the basis of that approach. They were not capitalised to support debt forgiveness.

I will let Mr. O'Sullivan tell the story of arrears management. However, as of today the Single Supervisory Mechanism is clear that all European banks should now manage down their non-performing loan stocks in a credible and ambitious manner. In parallel, it is important to note that the European Banking Authority has narrowed the definition of a non-performing loan. In simple terms, the only way an asset can be deemed as performing is if it is cured by returning to the terms of the original contract or if it is removed from the balance sheet of the bank. The rationale is that NPLs reduce the drag on balance sheets. Managing NPLs reduces the risk of negative consequences at the time of the next economic downturn. Managing NPLs increases the ability of banks to contribute to the growth of the real economy. The policy makes banks, including Permanent TSB, safer and more stable.

At the end of 2017 our NPL ratio was 26%. Given that the State owns 75%, it is very much in the State's interest that the bank manages down its NPLs. It is important to give the regulatory context quickly. The regulator does not dictate specifically how individual banks should reduce NPLs. We have never claimed that it did. The regulator sets out the following: the target; the definitions; the tools that might be used; and, most important, the timescale. As we sit before the committee today, the regulatory guidance makes a loan sale an inevitable choice by the bank even if it does not arise from a specific direction by the regulator. It is simply not possible to meet the regulators target and timescale within the capital envelope without a loan sale. Of course, a loan sale will not achieve everything on its own. We have used new ideas and pioneered some important innovations. The only approach we will not allow is blanket debt forgiveness.

In addition we should be under no illusion that the use of extra provisions, for example, to de-recognise a loan from non-performing loan status is not always in the best interests of all Irish taxpayers and other shareholders. Provisions are essentially trapped capital that would be better used in supporting the growth of the business and the economy. The role of management is to use those provisions in line with the bank's asset quality. The bank will only use or increase its provision stack if that is the best use of capital when compared against alternative approaches. Our governing objective is to repay the money invested by Irish taxpayers and other shareholders.

Of course, we must not forget that mortgages are secured loans. The assets have a lower risk profile and a lower price. The basis of a secured loan is that if it is not repaid, then the lender has recourse to the asset or can reduce underlying risk in another manner, such as through loan sales. If that does not happen, then the risks to new business pricing, financial stability and access to the capital markets are exacerbated.

Having said that, we have used many different approaches. We have pioneered debt write-off for buy-to-let investors with non-performing loans. Circa 1,300 properties were surrendered to the bank. We facilitated substantial debt write-off in cases of voluntary surrender, including for home loans. We are strong supporters of mortgage-to-rent. We believe that up to 1,000 mortgage accounts might be able to avail of this scheme and we are working with two parties, including David Hall's iCare Housing group in respect of such accounts.

The result is that last year we reduced our NPL stock by some €600 million, or over 10%. Since 2013, we have reduced the value of NPLs by approximately €4 billion or 42% of the total value of NPLs that were on the balance sheet four years ago. However, the ratio of non-performing loans to total loans, as defined by the European Banking Authority, has remained stubbornly high.

Several important factors are relevant that I am keen to put before the committee. First, a reduction in the size of our overall loan book in the same period has made a large impact. This was accelerated by the sale of approximately €6 billion of performing loans, a move required under the restructuring plan. Second, the characteristics of the untreated portion of the book – a matter Mr. Shane O'Sullivan will comment on in a moment - are relevant. Third, the binding constraint of European NPL definition and its impact on treated loans is relevant.

We believe that in order to make progress in reducing this ratio one of the initiatives is to pursue a loan sale. It is important to say that we are not the first bank to do such a sale and we certainly will not be the last. While our plans have provoked commentary, the fact is that the sale of NPLs to third parties in what is known as the secondary market is a characteristic of a functioning mortgage market and can facilitate greater flexibility in dealing with customers in arrears. Since our announcement much of the commentary has focused on customer protection when the loans are sold. As the Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland has confirmed in recent weeks, when a loan is sold the protections travel with the loan and borrowers are protected in accordance with the consumer protection framework. Of course thousands of such loans have already been sold by a variety of banks in Ireland. As the Governor pointed out, the evidence to date does not support the narrative that these buyers are managing these loans any more aggressively than the original banks were.

In summary, if Permanent TSB is to prosper and grow to support the ongoing economic development of the country, then the NPL ratio of PTSB must now be reduced dramatically and quickly. If that is not agreed, then all Irish taxpayers should recognise the consequences therein.

I will hand over to Shane O'Sullivan to give the committee some facts on how we have managed arrears since 2012.

Deputy John McGuinness took the Chair.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

With the help of some slides I wish to address the progress and work that we have already undertaken to manage mortgage arrears and NPLs. I am mindful of the direction of Deputy McGrath and so I will abbreviate the script as we go along.

I wish to draw the eyes of committee members to the first slide. As Mr. Masding said, in conjunction with the troika-mandated 2012 objective of arrears management the bank has reduced in absolute terms the value of NPLs by 42%, down from €9.1 billion in 2013 to €5.3 billion at the end of 2017.

That is nearly €4 billion less in non-performing loans, NPLs, over a four-year period. We need to remember other banks had NAMA as an exit for their most difficult NPLs whereas Permanent TSB did not

Despite that good progress, the slide also shows that the ratio of NPLs on our balance sheet has remained stubbornly high at 26% at the end of 2017, which is just one percentage point lower than was the case in 2013. A contributory factor is that our overall loan book has fallen from €33.5 billion to €20.6 billion in the period.

Of course, a large part of that reduction was as a result of the sale of loans in Ireland, and particularly in the UK, which was required by the EU as part of the group’s approved restructuring plan. That followed the state aid that Permanent TSB received in its rescue by the State. Finally, we have the European Banking Authority, EBA, Single Supervisory Mechanism, SSM, and capital context given by Mr. Masding in his opening remarks.

The next slide focuses on arrears management and covers the progress we have made on this crucial issue in recent years. Permanent TSB has reduced early arrears - loans in arrears for less than 90 days - from 4.8% of its loan book in 2013 to 2.9% last year. That is lower than the latest available industry average, which is at 3.1%. For late arrears - loans in arrears over 90 days - we have reduced the percentage of such loans from 15.1% in 2013 to 7.6% at the end of 2017. Again this is lower than the latest available industry average of 8.2%. That is a 54% reduction in the percentage of late arrears in home loans and a 56% reduction in respect of buy-to-let loans. This represents significant progress, all told.

I propose to skip the next slide. I ask members to move to page 11 of the script, which summarises the slide above. We are pointing out that the figures are on a property basis and relate to home loans. In the case of 13,800 of those properties, the loans are now cured and are performing or have been repaid in full. That is as a result of the very significant efforts and focus on behalf of our customers in very difficult circumstances and on behalf of the bank. A further 10,200 loans are treated and 10,400 properties are untreated and non-performing.

I will go into further detail on the untreated numbers. The figure of 10,400 is made up of 4,900 properties where the account holders did not meet the terms of the treatment offered by the bank, 1,700 where the account holders refused the treatment offered by the bank, 1,100 where there was no sustainable treatment that we could identify despite trying to find one and 2,700 properties where the account holders have simply not engaged with the bank.

This slide also gives a pen picture of the average untreated home loan NPL, which is €30,000 in arrears and three years in arrears. In 23% of these cases, the customer has paid nothing in respect of the mortgage in the calendar year 2017.

That brings Permanent TSB to this inflection point. Our arrears management strategy has paid dividends over the past five years. Thankfully for account holders and for the bank, thousands of accounts have been cured. Thousands more have been treated but will remain in NPL status until cured or removed from the bank’s balance sheet. The overarching role of management in these cases, as with all other segments, is to review all options in order to achieve the best outcome for all Irish taxpayers while ensuring that customer protections are maintained throughout.

Of course thousands of loans remain in a more conventional non-performing status and we have to deal with them, again in a manner which ensures that their existing protections are maintained.

This brings us to this proposed loan sale, which is a necessary step given the bank’s capital position - we were not capitalised in 2011 for scale write-off - and given the regulatory context and the urgent priority which has been set for all regulated banks in the eurozone to reduce their NPLs significantly within a tight timescale. We would be happy to take members' questions.

I thank Mr. O'Sullivan and Mr. Masding.

I thank Mr. Masding and Mr. O'Sullivan. I also welcome their colleagues. I thank them for their opening statement and presentation provided in advance. They were quite detailed and comprehensive. I and my party come to this issue from the perspective of wanting to see a viable future for Permanent TSB. We want to see a strong profitable bank providing badly-needed competition in the Irish banking landscape. However, there is a wider responsibility to society and customers, which is why we want to tease out these issues in some detail.

It is important for Mr. Masding to recognise that people have legitimate fears about their loans being sold on to so-called vulture funds. These vulture funds have a very different business model from any bank. It is not a long-term business model. As Mr. Masding knows, they do not have any interest in working out a mortgage over a 15 or 20-year period. It is important to recognise that people's concerns and fears are legitimate.

What is the specific direction from the regulator, the SSM, as to what Permanent TSB needs to do to reduce its level of non-performing loans?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

In February 2017, all European banks - not just Permanent TSB - were given a direction that the NPL percentage had to be a low single digit to support the growth of the broader European economy. The direction we have given is to target meeting the European average of just over 5%. There is no guidance as to how we should do that but in terms of why it matters, which I think is important, our capital ratios are kept high because of the level of NPLs. The level of resources we allocate to manage NPLs continues to be high, which obviously diverts our attention from being able to continue to grow the business.

We have got guidance on two things - the European average, which is 5.6%,and it needs to be done in a timely manner.

Is that spelled out?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

While that is not done in a specific way, we are broadly given guidance. It needs to be done in the next couple of years. Does Mr. Groarke have anything to add?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

Danièle Nouy is on public record. While she and her colleagues are always very careful not to be very specific when they speak in public, in a public speech in January Danièle Nouy gave a speech entitled, "If not now, when?" She would cite the positive economic environment as being conducive to banks reducing their NPLs. That is intended to be a signal to both the banking sector and to wider society. That underlines the urgency with which they communicate this.

To be clear, Mr. Groarke's understanding is that the expectation of the single supervisory regulator is that Permanent TSB should reach the European average within a couple of years.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

I think that is right, yes.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

They mention the medium term as an outline, which is deemed to be three years.

It is deemed to be three years.

I move to Project Glas, which is the Permanent TSB's proposed sale of loans with a par value of €3.7 billion. Is that the book value?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

That is the loan value.

It is the loan value - the current loan balance value combined.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Yes.

Some 4,300 of those relate to private dwelling home, PDH, family home mortgages where a split-mortgage arrangement has been entered into. Is that correct?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

That is right, yes.

In how many of those 4,300 mortgages are the terms of the split-mortgage agreement being met by the borrower?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

They would all be performing to the newly agreed terms of the split mortgage.

Permanent TSB's argument is that under the definition and regulations of a non-performing loan, these loans are deemed to be non-performing.

Even though they have been restructured and the borrowers are meeting the terms of that restructure, they are in the same basket as other loans where there has been no engagement and perhaps no payment made for many years.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

That is the consequence of the way the non-performing loan, NPL, definitions have been laid out by the Single Supervisory Mechanism, SSM, and the European Banking Authority.

Just to tease that out in terms of the definitions, I know it gets technical, but for those split mortgage arrangements which perhaps in some cases are a number of years old, when can they emerge from being defined as a non-performing loan and come back into the performing loan bracket?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

Unfortunately, under the way the rules are currently set out and interpreted by the SSM, it is only on the maturity of the loan when both the main mortgage and the warehouse is paid off. I should add that we have asked specific questions of the SSM, and other stakeholders have done so also, as to whether there might be a different way of interpreting the guidelines. Through 2017 we put those questions formally to the SSM. It is on record in response to us privately and in public to an MEP question that the SSM has convened a working group with the European Banking Authority to look at this question. At the moment, we have no answers to those questions so the position today is as I have described to the Deputy.

Is Mr. Groarke telling me that under the current definition, even where the terms are being fully honoured, there is no prospect of any split mortgage arrangement coming out of the definition of non-performing loan and that they will continue to be recognised as non-performing throughout the full term of the split mortgage agreement?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

That is correct, as it is interpreted by the SSM today.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

To go back to my opening remarks, it is clear that based on the information we have today, the only way that a loan can become performing is if it is cured, which means that it returns to its original terms of the contract or it is removed from the balance sheet. At its most simple, they are the boundaries in which we work.

Mr. Masding said in his opening remarks that there is a three-year review in relation to the split mortgage arrangements but in the contracts and agreements that I have seen there is also a clause (i), which is very broad in nature, and which gives the bank the right to terminate the split mortgage agreement for such other reason as the bank in its discretion thinks fit, subject to applicable law. My reading of it is that the bank, or if it is replaced by a new loan owner, for example, a vulture fund, may for no reason whatsoever decide to terminate a split mortgage arrangement. I do not think Permanent TSB would do that if it were the loan owner and if the borrower is meeting the terms of the split mortgage but I think it is undeniable that if the split mortgage falls into the hands of a vulture fund, it may well take a different view entirely of the split mortgage agreement, particularly if there is equity in the property, for example.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I cannot comment on how an investment manager would operate. From my perspective I will just repeat that in 2012, long-term forbearance was agreed by Ireland. We were asked as a management team to execute that. One of the tools we used was split mortgages and at the time we felt that the three-year review was the right intervention because we felt it was right to have a regular dialogue with the customers and to try to help the customers to move as much from the warehouse into the main mortgage, because obviously the warehouse is still due and at maturity we wanted to be sure that there was a reasonable opportunity for the customers to remain in their homes. That is how we think about the three-year review.

I understand that.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

In terms of the clause, I will ask Mr. O'Sullivan to comment.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

At its simplest, one has to look at the contract in the round. In the round it is a contract for a split mortgage and any new owner of that loan needs to honour that very simple fact. Second, any new owner needs to adhere to the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, CCMA, and the CCMA is also very clear about the need for recurring reviews. There are rules and there is also a spirit of the CCMA. Third, I refer to the recent letter from the Governor of the Central Bank where the Governor has evidence that none of these funds operate in any different way in the courts to the traditional lenders.

It is a simple fact that there is a clause in the split mortgage agreements that entitles the bank to terminate the split mortgage agreement at will. That entitlement will carry over to a new loan owner. A vulture fund will be far more likely to terminate a split mortgage agreement than the bank. I think that is undeniable, because a vulture fund does not have a long-term investment horizon or long-term business model. If there is equity in the home, does Mr. O'Sullivan really think a vulture fund would leave €100,000 of the mortgage warehoused for the next 15 years? It would not.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

I think it is speculation and I refer Deputy Michael McGrath to the history of the funds and their performance in the courts relative to the traditional banks.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I would also add that there is a legal and regulatory environment that is set by legislators and regulators in Ireland, and we all read what the Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland said. He said that in cases where banks choose to sell their loan portfolios, the Central Bank's position is that protections travel with the loans and that borrowers are protected in accordance with the consumer protection framework. They are the boundaries in which we work.

Then perhaps Mr Masding might clarify, in the event that a loan is sold to an unregulated vulture fund, for example, and it is guilty of a breach of a consumer protection code or the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, what enforcement powers the Central Bank has in respect of that fund?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I am not here to be a spokesman for the Central Bank or the investment funds, I merely make the case that-----

The answer is it has none. Anyway, we will do our job as legislators and the bank will do its job. We will work that through. Permanent TSB told us last September that it had entered into 6,279 split mortgages in respect of private dwelling houses, PDH, that is, family homes. A total of 4,300 of them are now in Project Glas. What is the status of the other 2,000 family home split mortgage arrangements that have been entered into? Why are they not deemed to be non-performing and in this basket as well?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

The vast majority are in the proposed sale. The sale is made up of a number of component parts. Mr. Crowley pointed to the performing splits. We also are unique in that we have offered splits to some buy-to-let customers, so there are a number of buy-to-let splits that are also in the sale. There are also splits that have failed and they are in the untreated portion of the sale. The final category is that we are withholding a significant number of accounts from the sale, and there will be some splits in that category as well.

To be specific, let us say 6,300 splits were done by PTSB in relation to family home mortgages. Is that still broadly correct?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

That is the figure for both home and buy-to-let mortgages.

Mr. O'Sullivan's answer to question 4 of the questionnaire in September on PDH long-term solutions, was that there were 6,279 split mortgages.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Deputy McGrath is correct.

Just to clarify, there were 6,300, and 4,300 of them are in Project Glas. Is Mr. O'Sullivan saying that of the balance, some have not met the terms and are in Project Glas but are deemed to be in the untreated bundle?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

That is correct.

Are there some where the terms are being met but the bank is not proposing to sell them, even though they are NPLs in accordance with the SSM regulatory definition?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

That is correct.

How did the bank arrive at that decision that some would go and some would stay, even though they have the same status from a regulatory perspective?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

We have decided to exclude certain accounts from the sale for good reason. The primary reason is that we believe that those customers are eligible for mortgage-to-rent arrangements. There are also some customers who are in a vulnerable status and we are working through other customers in terms of our tracker review. Consequently, we are withholding a significant number of accounts from the sale and within that cohort there are customers who have a split mortgage.

I am conscious that other colleagues wish to contribute as well. The bank did not answer the question in the questionnaire about the level of provision it has made in respect of the €3.7 billion portfolio it intends to sell but from looking at the bank's annual financial statements, details are given of provision coverage, so for PDH loans the rate is 43%. That is as a percentage of non-performing loans more than 90 days in arrears or impaired or both.

For buy-to-let loans, the figure is 63%. By my calculations, Permanent TSB has made provision for a sum of about €1.8 billion for the Project Glas portfolio of €3.7 billion. Its provision, therefore, is close to 50%. Is that broadly correct?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

In the round, at bank level, our provision level is 42%. As Project Glas represents 70% of our NPLs, the Deputy's figures are broadly correct. We have not provided the specific figures for Project Glas, but at bank level-----

I am extrapolating from the figures published in the bank's annual financial results.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

They are reasonable by way of the Deputy's oversight. Naturally, with regard to the transaction or the proposed transaction, we do not disclose the numbers in detail, but the Deputy's observation is reasonable.

I want to tease out this issue finely because I know that there are capital implications associated with carrying NPLs.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

That is right.

In terms of loss recognition, the bank has provided for a loss of close to 50% for the Project Glas portfolio. If it sells the entire portfolio as it is at a haircut or discount of less than 50%, it would be releasing a profit back into its income statement. If it sells at a haircut or discount of more than that figure, it will be booking an additional loss. Is that correct?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

That is correct, but one also has to take into account the fact that we have capital applied to the management of NPLs. We have in the region of €2 billion in capital, a significant element of which has to be devoted to an NPL book that produces quite a small return. By selling the portfolio, that is also released with reference to the capital we have tied up in the portfolio. The Deputy has observed that if it is sold above the net book value, it will be a profit and that if it is sold below it, it will be recorded as a loss, but the capital will also be released at the same time.

From what Mr. Crowley is saying, the capital implications are the more significant for the bank. I imagine it will not sell the portfolio at a discount of anything like 50%, given the appreciation in property values and so on. While a profit will be released back into the income statement, it seems that the bank is more motivated by the capital implications.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

We have to take it all together because there is the impact on either a profit or a loss. We are at an early stage in the process. The numbers are unknown. As there is a capital release, we have to take everything into account. We require a minimum level of capital to develop our business on an ongoing basis. We have capital tied up in the portfolio which produces very little in return.

Depending on the final price achieved for the portfolio, the bank could be releasing a very significant profit back into its income statement, perhaps in the order of hundreds of millions of euro, or perhaps €1 billion, depending on the extent of the discount at which the portfolio is finally sold. That is quite an attractive proposition for the bank which will make a hefty profit having provided for the losses. If it sells for much less, it will be releasing a very healthy profit back into-----

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

That is speculation. We do not know because we do not know what the numbers are. Mr. O'Sullivan has outlined the difficulties with the portfolio owing to non-engagement or people who cannot afford to support their mortgage. Any buyer of the portfolio would take on these difficulties and would, therefore, have to think about its pricing in that regard. It could be a profit or a loss; we do not know, but there are difficulties with the portfolio that a purchaser would also have to manage over time.

It will only be a loss if the bank sells for less than 50 cent in the euro.

Go raibh maith agaibh as ucht an cur i láthair. At the end of 2017 the total value of non-performing loans was €5.3 billion. Of how many loans is that figure made up?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Just over 30,000.

That takes us to the next graph which shows a figure of 32,000 loans.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Not exactly. The two are mutually exclusive. The sum of €5.3 billion is associated with just over 30,000 loans, including mortgages, personal loans, etc. Therefore, there will be large numbers of very small balances in the 30,000 odd loans amounting to the sum of €5.3 billion.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

We have a breakdown of the sum of €5.3 billion on a separate slide, if the Deputy would like to see it. It might facilitate his questioning.

I will come back to the point when I look at the slide.

With regard to split mortgages, an issue raised by Deputy Michael McGrath, the delegates state the current guideline is that split mortgages are non-performing. I questioned AIB about this, particularly Mr. Jim O'Keeffe. I asked him whether the view of the ECB was that the warehouse portion of the split mortgage was non-performing. He said it was not the case in the context of the current rules. He went on to explain how the warehouse split mortgages. Is the delegation suggesting split mortgages in all banks are deemed to be non-performing under the current rules?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

If it were a straightforward question, the SSM and the EBA would not have convened a working group to consider it at a high level; they would simply have answered the question. In that regard, in the European Parliament yesterday the Deputy's colleague received an answer in which Ms Danièle Nouy set out the basis on which forborne loans could return to performing status. She talked about being able to meet the post-forbearance criteria, which means needing to go back to full capital interest according to the terms of the loan and that the loans do not have what are called unlikely-to-pay criteria. There is very definite guidance in the definition of default rules in the SSM on what they are. Split mortgages, certainly as currently structured in Permanent TSB, would not meet these criteria.

I understand they are not meeting the criteria in Permanent TSB, but my understanding is they are meeting the criteria in other banks. Is that Mr. Groarke's understanding?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

I cannot really comment on AIB because I would not be able to see its internal accounting and regulatory reporting papers. All I can go on is the conversations we have had with the SSM, in which we have sought to ascertain whether there is a technical route through reclassifying the loans as performing. We have sought answers to the questions we and MEPs have had about this issue. I refer to the need for the SSM and EBA working group to finalise its views on the matter.

I appreciate that. Last year my colleague Mr. Matt Carthy asked questions about the working group. It has now been established. I am interested in hearing whether the bank has been given any feedback by the group.

I am sure some of the delegates, as senior bankers in a State-owned institution, know what their competitor is doing. Can they tell us that their understanding is the split mortgages of AIB, for example, are also deemed to be non-performing because the same criteria apply? I will put these questions to AIB also.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

I cannot comment on AIB's treatment and interpretation through the accounting rules. I simply do not have the detail.

Would the delegation be shocked to find out that a portion of AIB's split mortgages are deemed to be performing?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

The same answer applies. We can comment only on Permanent TSB.

Would the delegation be shocked to find out that a bank operating in the State under the same guidelines has split mortgages that are deemed to be performing?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

If there were a simple answer to the question raised in our conversations, the SSM would have found it or pointed it out to us. We have had extensive discussions with it on this issue. It has not been in a position to share AIB's internal papers with us because that would be inappropriate, but it would have been in a position to say whether an alternative application was available.

I take it from the delegation that it expects the position to be the same across all financial institutions, that is, that the loans would be deemed to be non-performing.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

It may also depend on how they have been set up in terms of legal documentation and how they have been accounted for internally within the bank.

Some of that might be the same.

That is the point I was going to come to.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

Not all of it.

Would the fact that they have split the mortgages into two different contracts, for example, the non-performing and the performing part, have a bearing on it? Would it be a bearing on it that, for example, Permanent TSB has to have the full warehouse portion paid at the age of 65 as compared to AIB, which does not have that stipulation? As Mr. Groarke can see from the ECB criteria, which was outlined to my colleague yesterday in the European Parliament, it will be deemed as non-performing if one has to use the underlying collateral to pay back the loan. Given the criteria that Permanent TSB uses, of course, that is the scenario because come the age of 65, one has to sell up to pay back the split mortgage whereas AIB does not have that.

Is it the case that Permanent TSB has got seriously bad legal advice in the structuring of its split mortgages and has now found itself in a situation where its split mortgages are deemed as non-performing and that other banks' split mortgages are deemed as performing? I will question AIB on this but I can only go on what AIB has told us in this committee on a number of questions that its split mortgages are deemed as performing under the current rules.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

It is not the case that the legal advice we have gotten on this is flawed. It may be the case that AIB or other institutions have their splits up in a slightly different way, that they have been able to navigate the rules around this. We expect to get a response from the Single Supervisory Mechanism, SSM, on this in due course but we have not yet received that response.

I acknowledge that Permanent TSB's presentation was excellent. It included interesting data on those in pre-arrears and those in arrears over 90 days that the bank has brought them to below the industry average. That is positive.

The problem here is Permanent TSB is about to throw its own customers' families to the wolves, to the mercy of the vulture funds. That is the serious problem here. It seems as if much of this is technicality. It seems much of this is because of the rules of the ECB, but also of the sloppy work, if this is the case, in the way that Permanent TSB has structured some loans.

Permanent TSB is a State-owned institution. AIB is a State-owned institution. We have a responsibility to try and keep those loans within the State within a regulated entity and ensure that there is a duty of care to our customers. Permanent TSB spends a great deal on legal advice. Surely it is able to find out how AIB structures its loans. How, as they say, could AIB have possibly circumvented the rules and found a different definition than Permanent TSB? This is a significant tranche of the 6,279 split mortgages that are deemed currently as non-performing that, if they were structured in another way, could possibly be deemed as performing. Surely that is something Permanent TSB could be working on over the next three years instead of stating to the borrowers that even though theirs are performing loans, it has made a bit of a mess here in how it structured them and it is selling them off to the vultures. Is that an option that Mr. Masding could look at?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

We are actively seeking clarification from the SSM and the European Banking Authority, EBA, on the split mortgage in terms of its definition as a non-performing loan, NPL. That is all I can say this morning in so far as we are active dialogue.

Is Mr. Masding aware that other banks have split the split mortgage into two separate contracts?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

We had not been and that is one step that might be required in order to cleanly navigate through the rules. However, there are other trip-wires, that were identified in the response to Mr. Matt Carthy, MEP, yesterday, in terms of the unlikely-to-pay criteria. Therefore, it is not simply a matter of the way the legal contract is set up. It is also the term of the split mortgage. The fact that, for instance, there is no interest on the warehouse makes it a so-called "diminished financial obligation", and that is one of the unlikely-to-pay criteria. The fact that the split itself is a significant forbearance is one of the unlikely-to-pay criteria and that trips it in. The fact that the warehouse at the end may require to be settled, either through the realisation of the collateral or through alternative means, means that that uncertainty is also an unlikely-to-pay criteria, irrespective of the way the legal contract is set up. Those are difficult areas to navigate, in terms of both the interaction with the customer and the way the proposition of the split itself is set up even before a legal contract is drawn up.

Is Permanent TSB open to considering withdrawing the 4,300 split mortgages from the Project Glas portfolio and looking at how other financial institutions have navigated through the criteria, perhaps based on the response that is to come from the regulators in terms of how they are dealing with the issue of split mortgages? This working group was set up in November last. I would have expected that it would have given some feedback at this stage to the financial institution.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

The way we think about it is that we need to make sure that we identify as many options as we can. The interaction with the SSM and its response in setting up this working group could create options for us in terms of a technical solution but we would need to see the detail of that and evaluate it properly before we could make a decision on it.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

It is also fair to say that Project Glas is at an early stage. We retain optionality and flexibility around how the final structure will operate. Indeed, within that, we think of split mortgages in a different way to the others for all the reasons that we have discussed here that the committee has outlined and we also understand. Therefore, nothing is defined with regard to that perimeter at present because we are at an early stage and we have flexibility.

Let me make clear it is not okay. I completely disagree with the strategy of the bank in relation to this.

With regard to the 10,200 treated but not cured loans, when will they be cured? What process must they go through to be cured? How long will it take for them to be cured? According to the regulator, it is a period of 12 months where they have to be paying interest and capital. Is it a case where we merely need to wait for the 12 months and if they are able to meet the terms of the agreement, they are deemed to be cured?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

It depends on the restructure. For some of the more conventional restructures, such as a term extension or capitalisation, the period in which they have to perform is relatively limited at 12 to 24 months. However, within the treated, one also has the splits. The splits do not come out of NPL, as matters stand at present, for the reasons that we have just discussed.

While we are on the splits, I would make two quick points. These are not time bound to age 65 and we have splits where borrowers over the age of 65 can repay them. Also, these are not all reliant on collateral. The idea is that over the period, between now and the end of the term, we will meet customers on a three-year basis and if times have been good to those customers, it is possible to pay down the warehouse and one is not reliant on the collateral. The problem at the core is that our borrowers have not been charged interest and that is what means these remain non-performing loans.

There is another type of treatment - part capital and interest - which is somewhere between the more conventional term extensions and capitalisation and the splits. These come out over a period greater than 12 or 24 months, but not the full term, and that is dependent on how much of the capital has been parked or not. There is a variety of performance triggers, essentially, depending on the depth of the restructure.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Broadly speaking, if they are short-term treatments, by definition, we work hard with customers to get them out of non-performing status into performing - let us call that 12 to 24 months. Long-term treatments, I am sorry to repeat myself, can only come out of NPLs if they return to their original contract, being full capital and interest, or they are removed from the bank's balance sheet.

Is it necessarily the case that it has to be the original contract? I understand that it does not have to be the original contract. I understand that if one restructures the loan, for example, that allows for a different interest rate or a term extension, if the borrower meets those requirements over a period of time he or she comes out of NPL. Is it the case the borrower does not have to go back to the original contract?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

That goes back to the previous conversation about whether or not they are able to meet the post-forbearance criteria, which is going back to full-----

They might just answer the question. It has been stated twice that the only way one can get out of an NPL is going back to the original contract or sale, but that is not the case.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

Based on the forbearance treatments and interpretations that we have in place today, that is the case.

If a loan with Permanent TSB is originally set at 20 years and is then restructured to 25 years, it will be dealt with as a non-performing loan as long as it is a 25-year loan.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

In the case of a term extension, which is what the Deputy is referring to, we are able to represent to the Single Supervisory Mechanism, SSM, that the customer's obligation has not been diminished, so he or she will still pay full interest on the loan over its life and it will be able to get back to performing. It is where we have a restructure-----

The witnesses are giving us a misinterpretation to the effect that it is either the original contract or sale. It is not; there are a number of options in between. I do not want to get hung up on that, though. Regarding the question of treated and non-treated, what proportion of the 10,200 treated but non-performing loans will be cured within three years?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

A small number. The 10,200 includes all of the splits, the part-capital and interest, and a small number of term extensions and capitalisations. I do not have the exact figures, but I estimate that approximately 2,000 of the 10,200 can come out of non-performing loan, NPL, status.

If Project Glas goes ahead, what will Permanent TSB's NPL ratio be?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

We are guided to a non-performing level of approximately 5% in the medium term. Through Project Glas and incentives like our voluntary surrender campaign and the mortgage-to-rent scheme, there are a variety of ways through which we will try to reach that level.

I will repeat the question. I am conscious that we are under time pressure. If Project Glas proceeds, what will the NPL ratio be? It is a simple question. Take those loans out of-----

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

In the region of 10% or 11%.

So the bank will still have a further 5% to go.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Unfortunately, the denominator decreases as well. Since the loans in question represent 26% of our book, it is two steps forward and one step back.

The bank will reach that level through the solutions that Mr. O'Sullivan pointed out, for example, voluntary surrenders.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Yes.

If there is no bidder for Project Glas, what will the bank do?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

The project has been launched and there is interest in the portfolio, so we do not countenance that particular outcome. If there is no bidder, it will leave us in a difficult position with the regulator, which is asking European banks to reduce their NPL ratios. There are difficult cases within the 10,200 properties and €1.9 billion of loan exposure. One third of those cases are not engaging with us, 1,100 cannot afford a treatment and 5,000 had treatments and fell over. We would have to revert to other social solutions, but it would leave the bank in a difficult position with the regulator.

I do not want to nitpick, but it is not one third that is not engaging, but one quarter.

Last week, the European Commission provided a number of proposals on the treatment of NPLs, one of which was guidance on national asset management bodies that would not contravene EU law and state aid rules. While the Commission focused on commercial loans, it stated that such a vehicle could also be used for residential loans. Would such a solution - a NAMA for homeowners - be of interest to the bank? This is the type of guidance that the European Commission outlined last week. Permanent TSB made the point that it was not able to avail of NAMA, which was predominantly for commercial loans. If such a vehicle were to be established by the State, would Permanent TSB consider that option and halt the sale of these loans to a potential buyer, which will obviously be a vulture fund?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

We would consider all options. As Mr. Crowley and Mr. O'Sullivan stated, our guiding principle is to clean up the bank and get it to a place where it can continue to compete, but we can only do that with a much lower NPL ratio. To repeat Mr. Crowley's comments, we are in the early stage of Project Glas. We would consider all options.

I will ask a final question on this matter. The bank met the Minister on 26 February. The previous week, the media was dominated by the potential sale of Project Glas to vulture funds. Was that issue raised at the meeting with the Minister? Did he give the bank an indication of his views on the matter? Given the agreement between the financial institutions and the Department, Permanent TSB must consult the Minister. When does it intend to do so?

The witnesses are well aware that the majority in the Irish Parliament opposes what their bank is doing, that being, selling the loans of Irish citizens - customers of the bank - to the vulture funds. Does Permanent TSB have a view on the democratic will of the Irish people, given that it is a State-owned bank?

I have asked a number of questions, the first of which related to the meeting with the Minister on 26 February.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

We have kept the Minister and his Department fully informed. I would not want to go into the detail of our discussions. There is a relationship framework agreement between the State and the bank and we will meet all obligations under that agreement. It requires us to consult at the time that any transaction is going to happen, so there has been no formal consultation.

Has there been an informal consultation with the Minister on this matter?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I have kept him fully informed because he-----

Has he expressed a view to Mr. Masding on the matter?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

The Deputy should ask him. I will not answer that question. Regarding the Irish Parliament-----

I wish to ask about the relationship framework. I am sorry, but Mr. Masding can answer the Parliament question later. If in the consultation the Minister, as the person who holds the shares in the bank, was to express the view that this was a betrayal of its customers and the Irish people, what would the bank do? The relationship framework does not prevent the bank from bulling ahead. What would it do if its major shareholder told it that this was not what he believed to be the best way forward for its customers or even itself?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

That is a hypothetical question, so I will answer it at the time. I am guided by my job, as the Deputy will understand. As the CEO of the bank, my job is to implement the right option for all Irish taxpayers - the shareholders - in order to satisfy our regulatory requirements. I will explain how I think about this. When I came to Ireland, the bank had been bailed out by the State to the tune of €4 billion. What drives us and me every morning is to try to pay that back because that money belongs to the Irish citizens, not to the bank. As of last night, our share price was €1.86 and our market capitalisation was under €850 million. Broadly speaking, my maths say that we still owe the State just shy of €1.5 billion. That belongs to all Irish taxpayers. That gap is being registered by the market as a function of us not being able to manage down the NPL ratio. While the Deputy and I might disagree, I am merely giving him my perspective. I am paid, as a guest in Ireland and the CEO of Permanent TSB, to try to repay the €4 billion. At the moment, there is a gap and the share price is diminished. The only way that we can get that money back is to manage down the NPL ratio. That is the view of the market.

It is not the view of the Parliament. We are not a market. We have a duty to citizens. A bank has a duty to customers, including people who have engaged with Permanent TSB for months and years. I have with me a letter from a customer who tells me that his file is yea deep after years of engagement with the bank. The letter asks simple questions about whether his is one of the loans that the bank is planning to sell to the vultures. The letter went to Mr. Masding's office, but the response sent this month was that the bank could not tell the customer. It did this even though, seeing as how it provided us with the figures of exactly how many loans were in each bundle, it knows which loans are being considered for sale, but it has refused to tell this individual whether his is one of them. There is a duty of care, not just in terms of the taxpayers' money.

The Minister for Finance did not put his hand into his own pocket at the time. He put his hands into the pockets of the Irish people, customers of the witnesses' bank. As such, not only is there a duty to repay that to the Irish State, there is a duty of care to the customers. The Parliament is stating clearly that it does not want Permanent TSB, as a State-owned institution, to sell these loans to the vultures. The bank needs to work through these loans in a more aggressive way. The witnesses need to look at how other banks have got around the rules. They need to wait for the response of the working group of the European Commission or the European Central Bank and deal with these loans on a case-by-case basis.

Of the 18,300 mortgages in Project Glas, how many account holders have not engaged with the bank for longer than seven years?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

The slide that was passed around this morning divides the potential loan sale into a number of cohorts. The untreated bloc, that is, the €1.9 billion, essentially comprises customers who have not engaged or have engaged but have failed treatments. That represents approximately 13,000 accounts and 10,000 properties. I cannot say here what proportion of those have not engaged for more than seven years. I will give the Deputy a flavour of-----

Permanent TSB released a press statement stating that some account holders have not engaged with the bank for more than seven years. The bank's representatives have now come before the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach and I am asking them to how many account holders this applies. Permanent TSB can say "some" in its own press statements. How many have not engaged for more than seven years?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

I do not have that figure with me. However I will give the Deputy a sense. On average it takes 32 attempts for a customer in this category to speak to us about his or her mortgage. That is an average figure, not a high or low figure. On average it will take 32 attempts for us to speak to the right party about the debt that is owing. That might give the Deputy a flavour of some of the challenges we face when dealing with customers who will not engage.

Why did the bank say in its press statement, which was well covered by the media, that some account holders have not engaged for over seven years, especially if the witnesses are not willing to give us the figures for how many have not so engaged?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

It is not that I am not willing; I do not have that figure to hand.

Can Mr. O'Sullivan give us the figure in the course of the next week?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Absolutely.

Why is it included in the press statement? What is the purpose of saying that some people have not engaged for over seven years?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Just like giving the Deputy the figure of 32 attempts at contact, the purpose is to give a flavour of some of the challenges that our borrowers and the banks face with this long-running issue. It is-----

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I think it is more simple than that. We started as a management team in 2012, under the mandate of the troika, to execute long-term forbearance. From 2012 to 2018 is a period of seven years.

Is the purpose not to paint those who have not engaged for more than seven years, and by extension all of those in Project Glas, as people who are not engaging with the bank and should not be respected? They are trouble. They should not be treated as human beings who have the right to access to homes. The purpose is basically to paint them in a certain light in order to justify throwing them to the vultures. That is why that was there. It is why it was given such prominence. It could be seven years, it could be six years, it could be five years. The purpose is to demean those people and then by extension all of those in Project Glas.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I do not think it is there to demean. I refer to our track record in supporting customers in financial difficulty. I contend that 30,000 treatments is a lot of treatments. The approaches we have taken over the past six years, which we have outlined, show that we have not lacked effort in trying to work with customers to find the right solution. The point we are trying to make this morning is that because we need to make the bank safer and enable it to grow, we are now running out of options.

However, even where Permanent TSB has engaged with people, and they reciprocated and have come up with solutions such as split mortgages etc., the bank is still willing to throw them to the vultures. I am not sure that displays a lot of care for the interests of the witnesses' customers.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

How would I reply to that? I have come before the committee to discuss other issues and the bank has been criticised for not meeting its regulatory requirements. Reducing our non-performing loan, NPL, ratio is a regulatory requirement. Where we are today, there is very clear guidance from our regulator on NPL percentage. They are the facts.

They are the facts but the consequence does not have to be that Permanent TSB sells these people's mortgages or the mortgages of buy-to-let properties where there are tenants to vulture funds. Those funds will simply be after the quickest buck possible, with no concern whatsoever for the interests of these people. One does not follow from the other. Yes, the bank has to reduce its non-performing loans. It is the witnesses who make the logical leap to say that they have no choice but to pursue this strategy for the sale of Project Glas.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

We have pursued a wide range of options since 2012. We have used short-term treatments and long-term treatments; we are desperately keen to get mortgage-to-rent to scale as quickly as we can; we have used assisted voluntary sale. The point I am making is that we are running out of options and an option we must now consider now is loan sales.

There has been a lot of focus, rightly, on the question of owner-occupiers, who make up about 14,000 of the loans in Project Glas. The statement submitted by Mr. Masding claims that "As the Governor has also pointed out, the evidence to date does not support the narrative that these secondary buyers are managing these loans any more aggressively than the original banks were." That certainly does not hold true in the treatment of buy-to-lets. My concern here is not primarily for the owners of buy-to-lets but for the tenants. There have been several quite horrific cases, including Tyrrelstown in west Dublin, the ongoing situation in Leeside in Cork and the Strand apartments in Limerick. In these cases, vulture funds get their hands on many units of accommodation in one location and move quickly either to hike up rents or to evict people, supposedly in order to renovate, and then to hike up rents. Do the witnesses have concerns for the tenants of buy-to-let properties that are included in Project Glas?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Are there any comments from the team before I answer?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Again, it is a question for the potential buyer of those properties. I am not sure we can speak to how they might manage or service the loans if they are sold.

That is the point, is it not? The witnesses wash their hands of the issue and hand it over to someone else to do the dirty work, and then it is not their fault. Formally, it is not their fault but in a sense, they will have sold these people's homes to vultures who do not care about them at all. I am not saying the witnesses care about them very much but at least their bank is under State ownership and can be put under pressure.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

We do not actually control those properties today. It is the landlords, the people who borrowed money on those properties, who control them. To give an example, we have offered a voluntary surrender campaign to buy-to-let customers. Through that campaign we gathered 1,300 properties in three months, two thirds of which remain tenanted. Indeed we intend that they should remain tenanted, and we will sell them back into the market to new landlords or new owners who want to occupy them. Today, we cannot control who rents those properties or how they rent them. We just manage the loan that is associated with those properties. A buyer is buying the loan from the landlord and can therefore interact with that landlord in a different way to us. Indeed, a landlord may find a better solution with a fund than they can find with us at this moment.

I am not without criticism of Permanent TSB dealing with buy-to-lets but the evidence is that the treatment of tenants by the vulture funds will be a lot worse. That is demonstrated by what has already taken place. The witnesses should feel free to respond to that. I will ask another question. On the one hand, the witnesses have said that it is early days for Project Glas and so the process of consultation with the Minister and so on has not taken place. On the other hand, in response to Deputy Pearse Doherty's questions about what would happen if Permanent TSB did not find a buyer, they were quite quick to say that there is definite interest in the sale. What is the timeframe for the sale of Project Glas? Where in that timeframe would the process of consultation with the Minister take place?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

The timeframe is not defined. It is flexible by way of our approach as we gather interest and understand the ins and outs of the portfolio. It is quite a large portfolio. In that regard, we stated earlier that our regulator expects us to reduce NPLs over the medium term. We have to complete this project over the medium term. It is our ambition that it happens this year but based on the nature and size of the portfolio, we know that things can be drawn out and delayed for lots of different reasons so we await to see how that evolves.

When will the consultation with the Minister take place in that process?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Under the framework agreement, the consultation with the Minister will take place when things become firmer, that is, when the board starts to make firm decisions about selling the portfolio. At that stage the consultation would take place with the Minister.

On average - I am not looking for specifics - what is the gap between that and this sale actually taking place? Is it a month or a couple of months? Is it that kind of period of time?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

There is not really an average. It is such a large portfolio. It is already in the public domain that we have consulted with the Minister with regard to the portfolio. We were not seeking his consent but, in effect, bringing him up to speed with regard to where it is. We are putting a lot of information into the public domain today regarding the performance of that portfolio to help this engagement. It really depends. There is no fixed time and there is no average.

The consultation with the Minister that is set out in the framework agreement has not taken place.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

The formal consultation has not taken place but we have spoken to the Minister about this portfolio. When the Minister became aware of this portfolio is on the record, by way of a parliamentary answer.

I will repeat the question. It is my last question. If the Minister accurately represents the views of the Parliament and the people and tells the bank he does not want it to go ahead with the sale to vulture funds and to find an alternative solution, whether that is selling it to another bank or pursuing it more aggressively itself, how will the bank deal with it?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

We would consider every option. That is the Deputy's question, right? If there are other options put in front of us, my chief financial officer, CFO, the board and I will consider all those options.

I would say Pontius Pilate is cringing listening to Mr. Masding and Mr. O'Sullivan. They have presented an opening statement here this morning and I do not know from where they got the language. It includes terms such as "curing people" and "finding a cure". They were the ones who caused the contamination and the disease in the first place. Do they accept that?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

There was a financial crisis, in which Permanent TSB was a player, so that is what we, as a management team-----

Is that a "Yes"?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

There was a financial crisis, in which Permanent TSB was a player.

I know that. I am asking the witnesses whether the bank was part of the problem. Was it part of creating this disease we are now dealing with?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

It is a loaded question. My answer is-----

It is not a loaded question; it is a simple question.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

The financial crisis happened in Ireland.

All right, so Mr. Masding is not going to answer it.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

There were many-----

I will just move on to the next question.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

There were many participants.

Does the bank do debt for equity?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

As a treatment?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

No.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

When I was here, Deputy Donnelly asked us to look at it as a treatment and from a tax perspective, we could not get it to work.

The bank could not get it to work in its interest.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

The Chairman asked me a question, I-----

I am asking Mr. Masding is it-----

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Deputy Donnelly asked me to look at it.

Will Mr. Masding just answer the question? Is it in the bank's interest it would not work?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

We could not get it to work through the tax lens.

This tax is about Mr. Masding's bank. The bank could not get it to work because there was a tax issue for the bank.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Correct.

Is that correct?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Correct.

It was nothing to do with the customer. The bank just could not get it to work for the bank.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Yes. It was not feasible.

That is a treatment the bank did not ever put into action. I will return to the opening statement.

The bank does not pay tax and will not for the next couple of decades.

That is quite true. The bank does not pay tax. Not using debt for equity for some tax reason does not seem to stand up.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

I am not sure of the ins and outs but I recollect the bank took up the Deputy's suggestion and-----

What is Mr. O'Sullivan's position in the bank?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

I am director of operations. That is-----

Mr. O'Sullivan is not sure of the ins and outs.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

No. I am not an accountant or a tax expert but I know the bank - and I am sure other banks, because it was a good suggestion - looked to bring something like that to customers alongside all the other treatments the banks have.

It is one treatment the bank never looked at.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

We could not make it work.

The bank could not make it work for the bank.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Correct.

For the bank. It was nothing to do with the customer. The reason I am saying this is because-----

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

It only works for the bank if it works for the customer.

All the emails I have received from various customers since our last meeting suggest they have tried in vain to deal with the banks. Mr. O'Sullivan said his bank made an average of 32 attempts to deal with customers to find a solution. I cannot give him a number because it is his bank and his customers but I get a sufficient number of emails to tell me that customers have been endeavouring to talk to the bank without success over a long number of years. Following the last exchange we had and the announcement that the bank was selling this bundle of loans, a number of people have come forward to say they may be included in the sale, that they are fearful and cannot get an answer from the bank about a remedy for their particular circumstances. It would appear the bank's efforts to drill down into these figures and contact those affected have not been as successful as I would have expected.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

I would say-----

Does Mr. O'Sullivan think the bank has done enough?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

There is always room to do more. I am that sort of person. Things can always be better. We have offered 30,000 of our customers long-term treatments. The Chairman should remember what the treatment does. It means we were able to avoid the idea of repossession back at the height of the crisis. We offered 30,000 treatments. We have the largest market share of split mortgages. We have offered 45% of all the split mortgages that have been offered through the crisis. I look at how many of those restructures are in place and working. I receive letters of complaint but I also receive letters of thanks. We complete research with customers who have been through our process and by and large, it is favourable feedback that we get from customers. I also look at some of the innovations we have brought to this area in terms of voluntary surrender and debt write-off. We offer solutions to buy-to-let customers and home loan customers who are willing to engage with us and in lots of cases we have written off debt. I also look at the efforts we are trying to make in terms of mortgage to rent.

If the bank is writing off debt, why does it not work through its loan book and offer as a solution, where it is appropriate, writing off debt equivalent to the amount the bank might write off for a vulture fund and assist the borrower to continue? Has the bank done that?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

We have done a large amount of debt write-off.

Has the bank written off debt to the tune of the debt it will have to write off when it sells to a vulture fund?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

There are a couple of things. We do not know to what extent we will have to write off debt in terms of any sale-----

Come on, Mr. O'Sullivan.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

We do not.

Vulture funds will not pay the bank over the amount.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

No, they will not.

They will pay the bank well under the amount.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Yes. They are-----

Why not-----

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Let me answer that.

Why not give that deal to the bank's customer?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

In my opening remarks, I was very clear that one of the areas Permanent TSB does not do is debt forgiveness. We need to-----

I am not asking for debt forgiveness.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Let us be clear-----

PTSB will write-off debt when it sells the loans to the vulture funds. Bearing the write-off that the bank has in mind, maybe the customer might pay it more than what it will receive from the vulture funds in order to restructure a loan. Why not give the customers the benefit of what it is about to do? Why not allow customers to stay in their homes and pay a restructured loan?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

That is debt forgiveness and we do not do debt forgiveness.

No, it is not debt forgiveness.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

It is debt forgiveness and we do not do debt forgiveness.

PTSB is prepared to throw people out on the street in the interest of getting money from the vulture funds. Perhaps the sum would be greater if the bank decided to sell the loans directly to its customers. That is not debt forgiveness as the bank would make its customers pay more than what it might get from a vulture fund. I am sure such a situation is of interest to the bank's shareholders, its balance sheets and everything else.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

There is no denying that it is a moral hazard.

Was it a moral hazard to give the banks €4 billion?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

In terms of the €4 billion, the banks were not capitalised for debt forgiveness.

An EU commissioner has told this committee that one of the country specific recommendations for Ireland was to write-off debt. Let us say I owed the bank €10,000 but it wants to sell the loan to vulture funds for €5,000 but I ask the bank to sell the loan to me for €7,500 or €6,000. That is not debt forgiveness. That is a debt write-off. The bank would make more money from the last deal than it would from a vulture fund. The PTSB wants to take the lazy option by not working at a lower level but take a lump sum from the vulture funds.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

How do I address the concern of the Chairman's other constituent who has worked with us morning, noon and night to repay his or her debt? How does one address his or her concern when he or she refers to how another constituent benefitted from debt forgiveness?

The people to whom I refer, have worked with the bank morning, noon and night to try to find a solution. I have asked the delegation about debt for equity and debt write-down. Sure there will be a cost involved but I ask the bank to consider the matter. Obviously it is of a mind not to consider the matter. This morning, Mr. O'Sullivan was in attendance and I certainly would not have taken his answer to the questions asked by Deputy Catherine Murphy. After our last meeting, and after him indicating that he could not attend here previous to this, he started to issue press statements that described how the loan portfolio would sell. The information that the committee requested was contained in some of the spin that was put out by his hired hand and, therefore, he must know the figures. He said that some people did not engage with the bank. He should be able to tell us today, because that is the reason that he is here, how many did not engage with the bank. He has endeavoured to create the narrative that the loans that are up for sale are being sold because of non-engagement, which is not true.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

I do not think that is the case. Today, our slide presentation clearly stated that there are loans associated with 2,700 properties where there has been no engagement by the customer. For that particular cohort the average amount of arrears is €50,000 and they are five years in arrears. We are also saying today that there are loans for sale where the customer has engaged with the bank, and there is no denying that. Those loans, for the technical reasons that my colleague described earlier, are still identified as non-performing loans. The bank is bound to reach a 5% non-performing loan figure within the medium-term.

The bank is willing to put the bundle of loans into the market yet it still does not know whether they will be categorised as non-performing.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Today, the loans are categorised as non-performing. As Mr. Groarke has outlined, there are questions between our bank and the regulator but today the loans are categorised as non-performing.

If the loans are re-categorised after the consultation by the bank, will it remove them from the bundle of loans for sale?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

We would have to look at the detail of what comes back from the Single Supervisory Mechanism, SSM. If it gave us that option, we would have to consider taking the loans out of the sale. As Mr. Crowley has described, we are at a very early stage in terms of the bundles of loans for sale. We have not made a formal decision on the final perimeter of loans. If the SSM gives us an answer that allows us to take the loans out in a way that works for the bank and its stakeholders then of course we will consider the matter.

I disagree with what PTSB is doing. I believe it has not worked sufficiently hard to resolve these issues. We all accept the reality that the bank or any other institution will always have a hardcore of cases that it cannot deal with. Again, the evidence that I have received, as Chairman of this committee, clearly indicates that PTSB has not engaged in the way that I had expected it to do.

I shall briefly refer to a few things that the CEO mentioned in his opening statement because I do not want the information to leave this meeting as if it were fact. He said, "We established a best-in-class infrastructure with up to 300 people working to manage the arrears challenge." There is no evidence of that in the letters we have received from PTSB customers.

I have dealt with the SSM matter. PTSB is wrong not to include the loans until it has a very clear definition of the position. I hope that the bank will analyse its entire portfolio to determine how many loans can be removed from the sale and not sold.

I presume PTSB wants to reassure people as Mr. Masding continued:

Since our announcement much of the commentary has focussed on customer protection when their loans are sold. But the Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland has confirmed in recent weeks that, where a loan is sold, the protections “travel with the loan” and that “borrowers are protected in accordance with the consumer protection framework”.

That is a general comment. I can attest that, in practice, that does not happen. The vulture funds and their agents are unregulated and do not appear before this committee. The attitude of the agents, who act on behalf of a vulture fund, is despicable. In fact, they should not be in business at all by virtue of the way that they have treated people. As I have said before, any civilised society would not tolerate what is going on in the context of vulture funds. Lest any member of the public is misled by this statement, I can confirm that the opposite is true. Most people who have gone through the unsavoury experience of dealing with a vulture fund have been left deeply unhappy and traumatised. I wanted to make it clear to the people who are about to be thrown to the vulture funds that the experience is deeply unpleasant.

I shall refer to the figures mentioned and the general approach adopted to tackle the tracker issue. I would like a simple breakdown of all of the numbers. How many people are in arrears due to the tracker issue? How many people are deemed to be part of the sell-out because of the tracker issue?

Split mortgages have been mentioned. How many of the split mortgages are 50:50?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

The average warehouse is actually 51% so it is 50:50.

Apart from the average, is there a significant number of split mortgages over 50:50?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Yes.

So PTSB has a significant number put forward.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

As in the percentage that is warehoused.

How many loans have been broken down into 50:50? How many loans have been more than 50% warehoused?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

It is the full range. We have lots of split loans where the warehouse is small and lots where it is large. On average, the size of the home loan warehouse is 51%.

Can Mr. O'Sullivan give me the figure?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

I can. I do not have the figure with me today but of course we can.

The reason we invited the bank here is to get those figures.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I can answer that question. Half of the portfolio has a warehouse which is above 50% and the other half has a portfolio below 50%, roughly.

How far above 50% is it? Is it 55% or 70%?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Some go up to a significant level above 70%.

What is a significant level? Would it be 80%?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

In some cases, yes.

Permanent TSB is selling split mortgages in respect of which 80% is warehoused. Is that normal for the bank?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Normal in what respect? Is the Chairman speaking about the size of the warehouse or-----

In any respect.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

This was the response in trying to work with the customer. In some ways, it reflects the levels to which we were willing to go. It would be, I suggest, highly unusual in any jurisdiction to have splits in the first instance. As a jurisdiction, Ireland probably has the highest level of split mortgages as a response to this type of crisis. Within Ireland we have gone to greater lengths in terms of the amount of debt that we warehouse. In the context of warehousing up to 80%, this means that we have actually taken 80% of the repayment off the table until the maturity of the mortgage in order to allow the customer to remain in his or her home. This represents the lengths to which we were willing to go to work with the customer. In comparison with other jurisdictions, including the UK, the US or continental Europe, this level of forbearance would be unheard of.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

No interest is charged on the warehoused amount.

I understand that.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

We are giving customers in those situations as much room and time to address their problems.

What is the witnesses' response to the statement that there are 6,000 customers who engaged, completed all documentation and adhered to the banks terms and conditions yet their loans are now being sold?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

I will make two points. We have been very explicit that we have asked specific questions of the SSM. To be frank, nobody in the system has asked as vociferously as we have for clarity on this question - albeit in private with the regulator. The committee should not take it that we have been taking it lying down that these have been classified as non-performing. The questions we have put were with a view to trying to get agreement to get them reclassified. We can only work on the basis of the treatment that is in place today in terms of the interpretation of the regulation.

On the point made earlier about the tracker issue, we were here before in regard to the 1,979 customers who had been identified by us as being impacted by the tracker issue. They are not part of this sale. They have been excluded from the Project Glas portfolio. There is no cross-over between the two issues.

Senator O'Donnell.

I want to take up a couple of points. What is the current status of Project Glas?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

It is at exploratory stage.

What does that mean?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

It is at a stage where investors are invited to express interest in the portfolio. They carry out some very high level due diligence on the portfolio and they put forward their credentials regarding their ability to manage the portfolio post-sale. On that basis, a selection process would happen at some stage in the future.

How many potential investors have come forward to date?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I am not at liberty to say because that is commercially sensitive information. It is approximately ten, if not more.

How many of those are on site doing due diligence on the loan book?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

The due diligence at this stage is not on site. It is carried out at a higher level by way of the work undertaken by the investors.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

It is not intensive at this time. At some stage in the future, depending on the options we select and how we proceed, it will-----

How many of those interested are Irish-based and how many are foreign investors?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Again, I am not at liberty to say. The Senator's definition of Irish-based versus foreign would have to be very precise.

Are they regulated in Ireland?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

They are investors who have operated in the market and have bought assets in the market previously.

Are any of them regulated in the Irish market?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I am not at liberty to say.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

Under current legislation, they would be obligated to work through a regulated entity or credit service agent in Ireland.

We are aware of that, although I do not believe they are being sufficiently regulated. I am asking if there are Irish institutions regulated by the Irish Central Bank who have shown an interest in purchasing this loan book?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I am not at liberty to say. Anybody that has the necessary credentials can look at this portfolio.

Within the group, are there any investors that are not based in Ireland but that are regulated here? Mr. Crowley said earlier that more than ten investors have shown an interest. Can we take it that there are some Irish regulated institutions showing interest?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Again, regulated in this instance is very broad. For example, an entity could be regulated as a bank, an investment fund or many other things. I am not at liberty to comment.

But Mr. Crowley is denying it.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I am not denying that there is or is not because it is not a factor.

We are aware that we have a functioning banking system and we are aware that Permanent TSB needs to be properly capitalised, well structured and in a position to make money. Alongside that, we have people to whom Permanent TSB provided mortgages over the past ten to 15 years, many of whom have been to hell and back. I have dealt with some of them. We are trying to get to the heart of the matter and address the lack of detail. For the benefit of the people following these proceedings, what is the next stage of the process such that people will know whether or not they are included in the sale of this particular loan book? I am assuming that the people included are unaware at this stage that they are included. The bank has 18,700 mortgage holders. Are the 4,300 people with split mortgages and the 10,000 with home loans aware or unaware at this stage that they are included in this sale?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

They would be unaware at this stage because no final decision has been made with regard to the final set up of this portfolio.

We are talking about the homes of families and individuals yet these people have no idea what is happening. Many of them are following these proceedings and they want to know if they are included. They are entitled to know what the process is. What is the next stage of the process?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

A customer would be aware of his or her situation with the bank.

I want to know the process in terms of the Project Glas sale.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

That is understood.

Mr. Crowley mentioned that the process is currently at exploratory stage and that due diligence is under way. What happens after that?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Typically, what happens in these situations is that interest is expressed. The interest is in the form of non-binding interest.

Is there a deadline for expressions of interest?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

It is part of a process.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I am not at liberty to disclose the date.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Investors would be required to come back to us based on the work they are doing. Some are required to do more work than others.

What is the indicative timeline for them to come back to the bank?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

They would be required to do so in the short term.

What is meant by "in short term"?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

In the next month or two.

If they come back to the bank by end of April or end of May, what will happen then?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

A decision will be made on the level of interest, who qualifies based on what they put forward, their background, experience and so on. They would have to partner with a regulated entity here who would be their collection agent in this regard.

That is assuming they are not regulated here.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I am not speaking about their regulation. It is important that, as required, they would be able to work with a party that would act as their agent. There are a number of agents already in the market.

I just want to know the timing. Is it at the end of April or May that the bank will have a defined group which will have shown an interest? What is the timing in respect of this process?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

We would have to decide how to move forward, taking into account all aspects.

When customers be made aware that they are included in this loan sale? Will they ever be made aware of it?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

They would, but at a much later stage. A number of loan sales have taken place in the past and these involved private dwelling homes, PDHs.

This is not a new track we are pursuing here. It is established already.

Approximately 88% of the portfolio being sold comprises home loans, including split mortgages. A concentration of loans of that nature has not been sold in Ireland to date. Is that correct?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I draw the Senator's attention to IBRC, which sold PDH loans originated by Irish Nationwide Building Society. There have been residential home loan sales in the past.

Were they sold to Pepper at the time?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I would have to go back to get the detail but there have been significant sales.

When will the homeowner be first made aware that his or her loan has been sold?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

At a later stage in the process.

Will that be two months prior to the conclusion?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

At a high level, there are probably six phases in every transaction. There are non-binding offers; we then create the long list; we then create the short list; we then create a preferred bidder; we then negotiate the contract; and then we do transition. We have done €9 billion of non-core deleveraging as part of our restructuring plan and no transaction followed a linear path. There is a gate through each of those six stages. It is impossible for us to give that timeline because we have to be sure at the end of each gate that we can move forward. For example, we know there is dialogue happening at the moment about the legislative environment around which investment funds work so we will have to see how that pans out. That is the best we can give the Senator this morning. I do not want to be unhelpful but I ask the committee to have a bit of patience with us. Those are the six stages. We go through each gate. At each gate, we decide whether we move to the next stage. My experience of doing them so far is that they go like this, they do not go like that.

Ordinary mortgage holders are unaware at this point if their loans will be included in this loan sale.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I grant the Senator that. That is correct.

They have no idea when that will happen. A deal will be done two months prior to the conclusion of the sale. Is that correct? That would mean-----

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Post the contract, there is a transition period.

Mr. Crowley made reference to accepted criteria. I have a customer copy of split mortgage terms and conditions from 2013. Paragraph (i) states, "The bank reserves the right to terminate agreement in the following circumstances ... (5) for such other reason as the bank in its discretion thinks fit subject to applicable law". Will that contract follow with the mortgage if it is sold as part of the bundle?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

The Senator is correct in terms of the formal requirement to notify the customer in a sale at least 60 days before the sale closes------

The horse has bolted at that point.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

-----so that would be after the sale agreement has been signed by us. With regard to that particular clause in the contract, our view is there are customer protections from two perspectives. One is that just looking at the legal system alone, it would be highly unlikely that if we or a fund took a unilateral view to cancel the contract based on it, that would be supported by the courts.

With respect, PTSB is a bank that did contracts for split mortgages with customers who assumed in good faith they would be valid for the remaining term. Vulture funds operate to a limited time criterion and a specific rate of return. Will they be entitled to invoke that clause if they wish?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

Our read of it is that because we are the current owners of the contract, it would be difficult for anybody to enforce that clause through the court system as it stands today.

Mr. Groarke cannot say that.

He cannot say that. Is it correct that the bank has discounted the loans by 50%?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

We do not give advice on that number because clearly that would tip our hand with a potential buyer.

It has been stated that there is a provision of close to 50% against these loans, which ties in with the warehousing being approximately 50%. I have done a rough calculation. If the bank sells them at a 40% discount, or at 60% of value, it would probably make €370 million; €740 million at a 30% discount, or 70% of value; or €1.1 billion at a 20% discount or 80% of value. If the bank has made a provision of 50% and the loans of ordinary homeowners are sold on, they have no say or involvement in any way in determining whom these loans are sold to. Suddenly their loans land on the desk of a fund. If the fund has bought them at a 40% discount and then sells them at more than 60% of the value, it makes a profit. Ordinary people are asking why they cannot offer 65% of the value of loans. The bank will be able to write back the provision and book a profit. Why will the bank not do this? That is the question we are being asked. I am bringing this back to what the lay person is asking. We accept that the bank wants to achieve €2 billion in capital reserves to allow it to function and that it has to deal with NPLs but the issue is how it deals with them. Will Mr. Masding address that matter? Given that provision has been made against these loans, why can ordinary homeowners who have taken out the loans not pay, for example, 70% of their value? Does Mr. Masding understand from where I am coming?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I do, yes. I would like to reply to two observations the Senator made. Both he and Deputy Michael McGrath speculated about the price of the sale. It is commercially sensitive for us to throw any numbers out, but I have not read any analyst report on PTSB that gives guidance to investors that the bank will make what the Senator refers to as a profit on this sale.

Based on the price.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

If possible, I am trying to balance any perspective that we will write back a profit. Any guidance from the analysts would say that this is unlikely.

Does that mean the bank will sell close to the provision?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I will not comment further. The Senator purported that potentially there would be a profit and I am merely saying that there is another perspective from the analysts and the market that this is unlikely. Let us just put that out there.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

We should clarify that the provision coverage ratio in our annual results is much closer to 40 than to 50 and that we did not comment on Project Glas.

If we take the blended or composite figure, apply what has been reported as PTSB's provisioning for buy-to-lets and principal dwelling homes, PDHs, to the mix of Project Glas, we arrive at a figure of approximately €1.8 billion, or 48% or so.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

That was not the point I was making. I understand why the Senator would, but he then took it to a conclusion that eventually there would be a win for the bank.

I was putting a range of projections to Mr. Masding.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

The Senator's second question was about individual deals.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

We did address that issue earlier. At its core is moral hazard. There are many thousands of customers who continue to struggle to meet their mortgage repayments, be they full or restructured. Just as the members have different constituents, we have different customers. It is very hard to justify to customer A who has struggled for the past six, eight or ten years to make their repayments that customer B should be allowed to have debt forgiven. That is a very difficult-----

It is not debt forgiveness.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

I am not sure labelling it is a good use of our time, but that is the reality. We distinguish between what we call debt forgiveness and debt write-off. I appreciate that the Chairman and I might disagree on labelling. The bank has engaged in a significant amount of debt write-off. Last year one of the Deputies issued a press release on the back of what we had done with our buy-to-let customers. Knowing that we were in this dilemma, we invited customers to surrender their property to us and said we would write off the shortfall. A total of 1,300 properties have been returned and we are more than happy to write off the shortfall in these cases and have done so. There has been a similar innovation in the case of home loans. This is a bank that is willing to engage in a debt write-off in return for a property. It is difficult for us to do what we call debt forgiveness because of moral hazard.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

In summary------

This is critical. Based on the offers that are in, at what point will PTSB state it is not proceeding with a sale but that it will try to work out the loans?

I would like to add to that question. Can Mr. Masding clarify at what point in the process the bank is likely to be advised legally that it has an obligation to proceed because so many parties have expressed an interest, invested resources and engaged in the process? At what point is the bank likely to be told that it cannot terminate the Project Glas portfolio sale?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

There are three dimensions to those questions. First, as I suspect we will not agree, I will give the committee the principle. We believe the approach the members have proposed is moral hazard which creates real issues about fairness between customers. That is the bank's position.

Second, we will consider different options for Project Glas at all stages. I gave the six left or right stages. As Mr. Crowley said, each stage is a gate. We have to consider-----

How long, typically, does Mr. Masding expect the six stages to take?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

It is not possible to do typical; for example, when we did the-----

Mr. Masding can estimate it.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I guess that it will be throughout the course of the year.

It will be done by the end of 2018.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I do not think that is unreasonable.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

That is reasonable.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

The third point relates back to the second. I am not sure the committee and I agree on this, but my job is to implement the right option for all Irish taxpayers. At each gate I need to make sure we meet the regulatory requirements. That is the test.

Is there a bottom line price being offered by the funds at which PTSB will state it will not proceed with the sale?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

There is a point at which it would-----

Mr. Jeremy Masding

That information is commercially sensitive.

My question was about the point at which the legal advice would be that the bank had gone beyond the point of no return and must complete the process. What is Mr. Masding's understanding of where that point is in the process of a portfolio sale?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Not until the final agreement that will contain conditions of closure, the master sale agreement, MSA. That is the date on which we will be tied into a contractual arrangement.

Very late in the process.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Yes, towards the end of the process. Then there will be a completion period in which more detailed information will be exchanged between the parties, but that will be specified in the agreement.

Mr. O'Sullivan said the sum of €5.3 billion of non-performing loans represented approximately 30,000 customers.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Correct.

A total of 18,300 customers are included in Project Glas which is worth €3.7 billion. That leaves 11,700 customers with €1.6 billion worth of non-performing loans. Can Mr. O'Sullivan please break down that number between split mortgages, residential mortgages and buy-to-let properties?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

As shown on the slide we gave to members, approximately 3,500, or 0.7%, have been treated. There is another group, representing 0.4%, which have been treated. We can see an earlier exit for these guys-----

What is the difference between the figures 0.7% and the 0.4%?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

There is a longer exit period.

Do they both involve home loans?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Almost all are home loans.

Roughly how many are involved in the figure of 0.4%?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

There are approximately 2,500.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

They are moving towards performing loans.

What does the figure of 0.5% represent?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

It includes a lot of non-mortgages, small personal loans, term loans and accounts that are included for technical reasons.

Is it fair to say all split mortgages have been included in Project Glas as non-performing loans?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

We have made exclusions from Project Glas of loans we are not including.

I am trying to reconcile the figures; 18,300 of the 30,000 loans are included in Project Glas. How many split mortgages on homes are not included in the figure of 11,700? How is the 11,700 made up? Mr. O'Sullivan is giving me a jumble and then tells me that the bank has made some exemptions. I deal in figures and think Mr. O'Sullivan probably has them. I would like him to give them to me.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

We absolutely do have the figures, but I do not have the exact figure. Fewer than 1,000 split home loans have been held back.

Mr. O'Sullivan has already given us a figure of 6,000 split mortgages.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Yes, but they are the ones included in Project Glas.

No. There are only 4,000 in Project Glas.

A total of 4,300 have been included in Project Glas.

Are 1,000 of the 4,000 buy-to-lets mortgages split mortgages?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

I will have to check.

How can 1,000 split mortgages be kept out? There appears to be the element of a lottery and ordinary mortgage holders looking in are saying-----

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Let me have a go from a higher level. Starting at the top with the figure of 0.9%, they are buy-to-lets. I think there are a few split mortgages in that number.

How many splits are there?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I will revert to the Senator on that point. I just want to highlight it at the moment. The 1.9 are accounts that we-----

The witness is referring to the 10,000 residential mortgages.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Yes, I am referring to the 10,000 mortgages which were deemed as untreated. Within that there are splits, because they were originally treated but then fell over. I believe there are splits in the 1.9.

The portfolio that is currently for sale totals €3.7 billion. That figure is agreed. It comprises 4,000 buy-to-let properties, approximately 10,000 untreated residential properties-----

Mr. Jeremy Masding

That figure may include some splits.

-----and 4,300 properties secured by split mortgages. The information that we have been given in point No. 1-----

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I will try to help the Senator.

I am trying to help the witness as well.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

We are trying to help each other. That is good. In 1.9 there are some splits which originally were treated but which subsequently fell over. This means that there are some splits in the 1.9. I apologise for using pejorative language. Looking down the chart, the 0.9% of splits are those which we have had much debate about this morning. They continue to meet their terms.

The witness is speaking about the 4,300 figure.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Correct. However, those mortgages remain as non-performing loans, NPLs, because of the definitional question we have faced.

Why were 1,000 splits held back, and what was the criteria used?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I will speak about that in a moment. In point No. 7 there are other treated assets, which we will not go through. To answer Deputy Pearse Doherty's question about differentiating between short-term and long-term-----

There are no splits in any of those.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

No. At point No. 5 are what we have described as "other". There is a set of exclusions, which are very complex, but which I can provide. My colleagues can assist me, but I can give four examples. They are in the insolvency category. Sadly there are some where we are dealing with the estate because a death has occurred. There are some which we believe are right for mortgage-to-rent use, so we have held those back, and there are others which were in 1,979 of the trackers. I am not sure if that helps. It is a summary

The Single Supervisory Mechanism, SSM, has come back and asked whether Permanent TSB has the latitude to interpret what is regarded as a performing loan.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Can I put the answer to that question on the record please?

This arises because of the agreement reached regarding split mortgages.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Permanent TSB, as of today at 11.42 a.m., has not received a formal reply to the question we have asked about its treatment of split mortgages.

Is it possible, based on interpretation, that a situation may arise where split mortgages would be deemed to be performing mortgages - which they are, in essence, as they are based on the agreements at the time - and they will not form part of this sale to the vulture funds?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

That is certainly possible, but we have not received a formal reply yet.

How long ago did Permanent TSB write to the SSM?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

We have been in discussions on this issue since the start of 2017. As we understand it, the working group convened in late 2017. The timeframe that was described earlier can-----

Can the witnesses say, for the ordinary person, why they have not gone over to meet the SSM? I am assuming they are not meeting them. The consequences for people are huge. There are petrified people out there. This applies to people with various types of mortgage, for example, those with split mortgages who most likely went through a painstaking process with Permanent TSB, including financial review documentation. I cannot express the torment this causes people in terms of getting to a point where a split mortgage was approved.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I can assure the Senator that we have an audit trail which seeks to influence the decision as quickly as we can. It seems to me that this is a circular discussion.

Have the witnesses met with the SSM?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

Yes, we have met on many occasions.

When was the most recent meeting?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

We speak to the SSM all the time on this issue. We are in a difficult position because we cannot disclose the nature of those conversations.

With due respect to the witnesses they have already put out a tentative invitation to various funds - including vulture funds, and some Irish banks, I hope - to purchase these loans. Included in that portfolio are 4,300 split mortgages that are working. This is like pulling teeth, because we are pushing the witnesses and going down alleys to extract information. We accept the point that the witnesses have a difficulty in terms of restoring the bank. Mr. Masding said that the market capitalisation of the bank is €800 million and that the taxpayer is owed €1.5 billion. Is that correct?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

The Senator is correct.

Those are stark figures.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

They are. The point I was making was that the dilution in the share price is a function of us not solving the issue around NPLs. To return to the Senator's point-----

It is not going to happen overnight. The taxpayer knows that this takes time. However, I find it difficult to understand why the bank went to the market, even tentatively, without having the issue of the split mortgages fully clarified by the SSM.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

The reality is that if we do not get the answer that says we can classify these as performing loans there is no route from getting these from here to the performing loans category.

Why did the bank go to the market before that matter was clarified? That should be a matter for the due diligence of the bank.

Mr. Stephen Groarke

If the SSM comes back and we are not able to navigate these mortgages towards the performing loans category, whether by interpreting the regulations in a particular way or by way of dispensation, then we are back to the problem we have today, which is that they are counted as part of the non-performing loans stack. We are obligated by the SSM to deal with that and to bring that to a normal level.

The question I asked is why the bank sought various funds, both inside and outside Ireland, without having the matter of the split mortgages clarified. The split mortgages make up almost a quarter of the loan book the bank is seeking to sell.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I hope that the Senator will understand that we need to retain the maximum flexibility regarding the options and that we must secure the best achievable outcome for the State. It is important to emphasise that we are at the start of the process. A number of members of the committee have asked questions about different potential situations. Of course we are absolutely open-minded when it comes to choosing the correct option. As of today I am working within a certain set of parameters.

The witness appreciates where we are coming from.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I 100% appreciate where the members are coming from.

There are mortgage holders out there who want answers. We appreciate that we need a proper functioning banking system. It is clearly important that Permanent TSB is in the market and is lending, but a balance must be struck. Mortgage holders must be protected in that overall context.

Does Mr. Masding have any advice for customers who suspect they are in the basket of Project Glas?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

We continue to want to engage with customers. Customers should pick up the phone, and within the constraints we are working under, which have been explained to the members this morning, we will continue to engage with them.

Can the witness clarify that if another bank purchases these loans at a discount they will not be deemed to be NPLs on its books?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I could not comment on how other banks run their business.

Apart from the split mortgages, are there any other restructured loans where the terms of the restructure are being met that are included in Project Glas?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

No, there are not.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Within the buy-to-let portfolio there are some restructured loans which meet the requirements but they are classified as buy-to-let at the moment.

Within that cohort there are some customers who fulfil that characteristic.

Okay, they have been restructured and are meeting the terms of the restructure but are in the-----

Mr. Jeremy Masding

That refers to the PDH question.

How many buy-to-lets have been restructured and are meeting the terms? Are there 4,000 buy-to-lets in Project Glas?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I do not have the number for properties. I have the number for the amount rather than properties and it is probably €300 million of the €900 million. However, one can see from the numbers that the exposures on buy-to-let properties are much higher on average than they are on the PDH portfolio.

I have some questions but I assume the witnesses will not have some of the answers so perhaps they could provide a response to them for the committee. I am seeking information on the loans in Project Glas. In how many of them did the bank vote against a personal insolvency arrangement, PIA, and in how many did it vote for one? If there is any information, perhaps the witnesses can provide a breakdown. With regard to the question asked by the Chairman about the ratio of splits, can the witnesses also inform the committee about the different grades, for example, the number of accounts above 50%, 60%, 70% and 80% in increments of 10%? That would be helpful. Can they also inform us of how much debt was written off where an individual was allowed to stay in the home and the number of instances where that occurred?

With regard to their arguments on moral hazard, this works for AIB. AIB is doing this but Permanent TSB is not. There is a big difference between AIB and Permanent TSB. Permanent TSB is in serious trouble. It needs to get off the high principles and start dealing with reality.

The witnesses referred to the buy-to-let write-offs. There are write-offs for investors. They said that 66% of the 1,300 houses have tenants. Are the other 400 houses lying empty, without tenants, in the middle of a housing crisis?

I have a question for Mr. Masding on the provisions, and I will talk hypothetically. If there were provisions of 48% against this portfolio and the bank sold for 40%, does that mean there is a profit in the bank because the provisions are obviously more than what the reduction was? Can he explain that?

My last question relates to the splits because there is now more confusion following Senator Kieran O'Donnell's questions. How many splits are in Project Glas? What is the full amount between performing, non-performing and the buy-to-lets? I am so frustrated with this. I am listening to extremely well-paid bankers, no doubt with good intentions, saying they cannot get answers for the regulator for over a year. AIB is doing this. It has given its answer to us. It has 3,190 split loans. Subject to the new repayment terms being fully met during a probationary period, typically one year, AIB split loans are eligible to return to performing status under EBA non-performing definitions. This is one bank and the witnesses have no idea how AIB is able to do this. That is just crazy; it is madness. Despite the suites of legal and accountancy advisers the witnesses have, they cannot understand how AIB is doing this. I find that mind boggling. It is unacceptable that the SSM has not responded to the bank but it is also unacceptable for the bank to say that it has engaged with the SSM since the start of last year and has received no answers so it is going to sell these loans. I am sure this committee would be better able than Permanent TSB to find out how AIB is able to do this. Reporters have been writing about how AIB is doing it. I do not understand how Mr. Masding is overseeing a bank that simply does not know how its competitors are able to achieve what he is not able to achieve. There are serious questions about that. It appears that there are approximately 6,000 loans, split mortgages, about to be sold which could be deemed as performing if the bank understood what its competitor bank was doing. How can he justify that?

I would like to have an answer to that question and answers to the other questions, if the witnesses have them. If not, they could provide the information to the committee. It is deeply frustrating. It also must be frustrating for the customers who, unfortunately, went to Permanent TSB instead of AIB and got a split mortgage and, as a result of Permanent TSB being unable to figure out how it meets the criteria, they are being thrown to the wolves. It is not good enough.

The witnesses can answer.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Deputy Doherty asked me to write back with the answers so we will do that.

I am asking for an answer on the last question now. I am seeking answers to the more detailed questions, which I presume the witnesses do not have with regard to the PIAs and the ratio in increments of 10% for the split mortgages. I am being fair to the witnesses. There are serious questions for Mr. Masding as the CEO of the bank given that he cannot understand what AIB is doing. We will question the representatives of AIB and we might ask them to send Mr. Masding a note on the issue so he can find out how AIB is able to have its 3,190 split mortgages deemed to have returned to performing status under EBA non-performing definitions. Mr. Masding simply does not have a clue how to do that.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I believe I have answered the question already. I repeat that we have not received a reply. We continue to engage with the regulator. Based on the information we currently have the split mortgages stay in non-performing loan status. Like the Deputy, we continue to try to find the rationale such that we will then have some different options.

Are one third of the houses lying empty? There are tenants in only 66% of the 1,300 houses that were handed back. Please do not tell me that they are lying empty at this point in time.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Yes, they are. Regarding the insolvency question, of all of the cases we adjudicated on last year we agreed with the insolvency proposal in just under 70% of the cases.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

If I can speak on the houses, the voluntary surrender scheme commenced in September. Some 1,300 properties have been collected since September. Most of them arrived in November and December. They came with tenants or vacant; 66% of the 1,300 are tenanted while approximately 400 are not and are vacant. We are trying to sell those back on the market as fast as we can.

To answer Deputy Doherty, how many properties right now are vacant?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Roughly 400 of the properties we received are vacant. However, we received the keys only three months ago in December.

I am just asking how many are vacant.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

It is about 400. We are talking to the Housing Agency, in the context of the hundreds of properties it is considering, with regard to bringing them into the social scheme. Within that population we have approximately 200 properties in the housing assistance payment, HAP, scheme. There are many conversations taking place with both the Housing Agency and other agencies on trying to move that property back onto the market as fast as possible. We received the properties in a vacant state from landlords who had left them in that state. The key thing is that we get them back out onto the market either by way of the Housing Agency or other agencies-----

The bank got them in December.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

No, it was through the months of October, November and December.

Your answer to Deputy Doherty forms a familiar pattern where you say you got 400 in December-----

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

It was through those months.

-----but when you were pressed on it you say through the months of October, November and December.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

I said the majority, Chairman.

Again, with regard to the split mortgages and so forth, the witnesses should have that information with them today and they do not. It shows a bit of tardiness on the part of the bank-----

Mr. Jeremy Masding

Sorry, a bit of what?

It is a bit of tardiness of the part of the bank that the witnesses would not turn up with the specific figures so we can understand clearly what is happening. There is a question I forgot to ask you when I was speaking to you last. You mention in the opening statement that you are dealing with two parties, including David Hall's iCare Housing group. What other party are you dealing with?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

There is a company called Home for Life, which we have mentioned here previously. It is attempting to become a provider in the new mortgage to rent scheme. We are working with that company as a preferred partner and with David Hall's iCare Housing as a preferred partner.

Given the social consequences of all of this and the impact on individuals and families, would the witnesses not take the initiative with Home for Life and David Hall's iCare Housing and try to expand the schemes that they have to facilitate those two organisations regarding the numbers that Permanent TSB will sell in this bundle in order to minimise those going there?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

We are talking to David Hall in that regard. It is the full suite of houses that we have. We have provided the housing authority with details of hundreds of houses that may fit into its requirements. We are working very hard to get this stock of housing back into the market through many different means.

I am not talking about the 400 houses but the loans that are there. There are two possibilities with David Hall's iCare Housing and Home for Life. Is it not time for the bank to, perhaps, look beyond the norm, the soft sell or soft option of vulture funds and putting houses on the market? Should it not decide that the social consequences of this are so great that it should go beyond the norm and try to create or use an entity such as those I have just mentioned to put some of these loans in? They could be worked out to the benefit of the householder and the bank and then, as I said, facilitated by the two organisations beyond what they are offering. They are offering what they see as being the concepts that might work. Will the witnesses work with them to bring it a step further?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

That is exactly what we are doing. We have excluded loans from Project Glas because, based on the information we can see in respect of those accounts, we think they are perfect for mortgage-to-rent.

I am asking whether Permanent TSB might set up a project of a specific kind to deal with the numbers that it has in Project Glas. Is there a way that it can sit down with organisations like that and try to work out a solution before all of this social upheaval starts happening for families?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

The bank has a target and a timeline and it is looking at as many alternatives as it can, such as loan sale-----

I know some other members would share a view that we will do everything to frustrate that timeline in the interests of those affected by this. We would say to the witnesses that in this instance, because of the size of the portfolio and the number of families involved, they should use their imagination and come up with some other way of dealing with this using the two organisations of which we spoke. They seem to be ready and capable of doing it.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

They most certainly are. I hope, if the Chairman spoke to either or both, that they would give a sense of our interest in making this work. Let us see where we get with both organisations and with the loans that we think are perfect for the scheme.

If they come up with some other scheme, the witnesses are willing to consider it too.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Absolutely.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

We were clear this morning that we are at an early stage of the process. We will consider all the options.

I am not fooled by that.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

I beg your pardon.

I am not fooled by that. Despite what the witnesses say, they are very clear on the course upon which they have embarked. They came to us on 14 June 2017 and said they had no plans relating to the disposal of these mortgages. It is in the questionnaire here.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

At that time I did not.

Therefore, it has moved quite quickly to this point. If it was not for the matter being raised here in the Dáil and the public concern that has been expressed, it might have moved a hell of a lot quicker. I am not fooled by what Mr. Masding is saying. I do not take it in. Like Deputy Pearse Doherty, I do not believe for one minute that the witnesses do not know how AIB and other banks are doing. They watch each other like hawks, know each other's products, know what they are selling and know each other's marketplace. That is my view on that but I would ask that the witnesses undertake an analysis of what is going on here with the two organisations they are talking about to see how many can be taken out of Project Glas and encouraged into an iCare or Home for Life scheme, even if they have to create a new scheme. Do the witnesses think they might actually engage with both of them soon with regard to a new initiative?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

We continue to engage with them in any event. Let us see where that takes us.

Okay. We will monitor it from here.

With regard to Deputy Pearse Doherty's question about the number of split mortgages in total in Project Glas, we know that 4,300 are in the €900 million bundle. I think the witnesses indicated that perhaps 1,000 have been held back overall. Is it about 5,000?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

We will come back with the exact figure but it is 4,300 properties, which is different to accounts. On an account basis, I think that is about 5,000 and then there are another up to 1,000 that have not been withdrawn in and of themselves but there are exclusions.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

The Deputy asked us a question and as we have always done, we will come back to the committee with the specifics.

Will the witnesses also include information on buy-to-lets? They did 443 as of last September. Will they confirm how many of those are currently in Project Glas?

If the witnesses will do that as soon as they can, it would be very helpful to the committee. Mr. O'Sullivan answered my question about PIAs. He said that the bank has rejected 30%. My question specifically related to Project Glas, so does that 30% relate to it?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

No. That is bank-wide in 2017.

Has the bank rejected any PIAs that are now in Project Glas? That is my key question.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

I will come back on that.

Of the houses the bank has, are 400 vacant?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

In the batch that we received-----

As of 22 March, how many vacant properties does Permanent TSB have on its books?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Approximately 1,000 in total. It then has approximately 900 that are tenanted.

The bank has 1,900 in total and, of those, over 50%, or 1,000, are vacant.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Exactly.

It seems an incredibly high number to be vacant.

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

We are trying to sell these into the market. We are trying to turn them and put them back in the market.

Some 400 came on-stream in December. The problem is that the further we have gone, the more questions come.

It must be very hard to sell a house these days.

If the bank has 1,900 houses and 1,000 are vacant, are they for sale?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

They are coming on the market for sale. Some have to go through tax clearance so there is a requirement to go to the revenue to get VAT clearance, etc., before we sell them. Some have to go through legal processes too.

Are any on the market at the moment?

Mr. Eamonn Crowley

Yes.

How many are on the market?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Some 400 are on the market today.

Are they with auctioneers?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

They are with auctioneers. A further 400 are just about to go on the market. The final preparations have been finalised. We then have 900 that came back through the voluntary surrender campaign. They are not yet on the market because what Mr. Crowley says is correct that tax liability issues are being addressed, deeds are being checked and everything else is being done.

We need to get the figures. They are not adding up again. Some 900 are rented-----

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

We have 1,900 in total, 1,000 are vacant and 900 are tenanted. Of that 1,900, a total of 400 are on the market.

Fine. Is that out of the 1,000?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Of the 1,900, a total of 400 are on the market and a further 400 will be on the market very shortly. That is 800 of the 1,900. A big chunk, 900, have come back in the last months because of the voluntary surrender campaign. They are all being worked through and soon enough-----

The 400 would be included in that, that came back in December.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

No, all of them. Whether they are tenanted or vacant as a result of the voluntary surrender campaign, they are going back on the market. Those 900 will go on the market soon to add to the 800 I mentioned.

That makes 1,700, and a further 200 are on hold because there is a problem with the properties or a good reason not to put them on the market..

How many properties has Permanent TSB sold to date?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

The number sold last year was small. This is related to our protocol in terms of the tracker review. We decided not to sell properties while we were working our way-----

Approximately how many have been sold to date?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

I will revert to the Deputy with a figure.

In essence, Permanent TSB's campaign of selling properties is only starting.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Yes.

Approximately 1,000 of the properties to be sold are vacant.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Some 900 are tenanted.

They were buy-to-let properties.

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

Yes. There will be two types of buyers. The vacant properties will appeal to first-time buyers and buyers who are trading up, while the 900 tenanted properties will appeal to buy-to-let landlords.

This means Permanent TSB is coming very late to the table. Reading the statement submitted by AIB, which we will discuss in detail with its representatives later, it appears the bank interpreted the rules in such a way that it deemed split loans to be performing and made that case to the SSM. AIB interpreted the rules in a certain manner. Did Permanent TSB make the same case as AIB on split loans?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

To return to a previous point, if this were a simple and straightforward matter, the SSM would not have needed to convene a group with the European Banking Authority. We have made a set of cases to reclassify these loans to performing. We need to have the answers.

Permanent TSB has made the case to the SSM that split mortgages should be deemed to be performing. Is that correct?

Mr. Stephen Groarke

Yes.

At the same time, the bank has included split mortgages in the bundle it proposes to sell. We require urgent clarity on this matter.

I know we are pushed for time but I would like an answer to an earlier question I asked. If, hypothetically, provisions are made against Project Glas valuing the loans at 48% of book value and the loan book is sold at 40% below value, will the bank make a profit? How does the process work?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

To put it in very simple maths, we have a net book value after provisions. If someone bids me above the net book value, it is a profit and if someone bids me below the net book value, it is a loss.

When Mr. Masding says the analysts are suggesting that Permanent TSB will not make a profit on the sale, they are saying it will be sold-----

Mr. Jeremy Masding

In their view, it will be sold at less than the net book value.

The net book value is 48% or less, which is a write-down of nearly 50% across the loan book.

Mr. Jeremy Masding

In simple maths, if it is worth 100% and I put provision on it against 50% and someone bids me 48%, I lose 2%.

I understand that.

Why would Permanent TSB sell the loans if there is a possibility that it will book a loss?

Mr. Jeremy Masding

It is because the regulator has asked us to reduce the non-performing loan, NPL, ratio.

Has the voluntary surrender campaign been closed down?

Mr. Shane O'Sullivan

By and large, it has been closed down but there is a campaign under way at the moment where we are working through a final cohort of customers. We are still speaking to a couple of hundred customers.

We must conclude.

Sitting suspended at 12.15 p.m. and resumed at 12.25 p.m.
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