JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 4 Nov 2003

Vol. 1 No. 35

Visit of Hungarian Delegation.

Chairman

I have the great pleasure to welcome to today's meeting a delegation from the Hungarian National Assembly led by the Deputy Speaker, Dr. Ferenc Wekler, who is accompanied by Mr. István Szabó, Mr. Jósef Gulyás, Mr. Miklós Caspody and Mr. Gyula Szabó. I also welcome the Hungarian ambassador to Ireland, Dr. Palmai, who is accompanying the delegation. The ambassador has been very active on his country's behalf and is well known to all members of the joint committee. To a great extent, he has prepared the way for what is happening at this important time. The delegation has travelled to Ireland to monitor the ratification process of the accession treaty of the ten applicant countries. During their short visit, delegates will also meet with the Joint Committee on European Affairs, the chairman of which, Deputy Gay Mitchell, is in attendance today. Delegates will also meet with the Ceann Comhairle of the Dáil and the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad.

Before I give the floor to my guests, I have a brief comment to make. I record this committee's sincerest welcome and support for Hungary's accession to the European Union. The old divisions are beginning to heal at last and I am delighted to see that Ireland and Hungary will be partners in the new Europe. We aim to complete Ireland's ratification procedures by the end of this year and before our EU Presidency commences. The accession of the ten new member states will be the most momentous event of that Presidency. We will commence 2004 with 15 members and become a union of 25 by the summer. We in Ireland intend to do everything we can to ensure this process is a success. The European Communities (Amendment) Bill, which is necessary to give effect to the accession treaty in our law, will be presented to the Seanad on Thursday next. I understand our guests may remain in Dublin to attend that session and to hear the debate.

Tomorrow, the Commission will present its latest annual report on the progress of each of the accession countries toward the adoption of the acquis communautaire. From today’s issue of The Irish Times I note that Hungary has made good preparations for the delegation’s visit. There was a four page spread which set out the country’s potential for development within the EU. Also outlined was the historical relationship with Ireland on which we plan to build and which indicates very clearly the close affinity between our peoples. That will prove positive for the growing numbers of people who are inquiring aboutHungary and working with Hungarians in business. As Irish people are inclined to do now, they travel continuously. The four page spread set out a clear exposition of Hungary’s current position.

The visit of the delegation comes at a particularly busy time in the accession agenda. It only remains for me to give the floor to the Deputy Speaker and his colleagues. Perhaps Dr. Wekler will introduce his colleagues after which an exchange of views with the committee can take place.

Dr. Ferenc Wekler

I thank the Chairman for his kind words of greeting and for providing the delegation with the opportunity to consult with the joint committee. The purpose of our visit is not only to monitor the current status of the accession process and the way in which it is received in Ireland, but also to promote and support the process as much as possible. Naturally, we would do that only if it seemed to be necessary. If any questions about the Hungarian accession have been raised in the European Union, it would be our pleasure to answer them.

The delegation wishes to extend its heartfelt thanks for the support Ireland has given to Hungary in this process. As the Chairman said, there seems to be no problem of any kind in our relations. We hope we will have the opportunity to enjoy the benefits of Ireland's kind support in the future. We wish to learn about what Ireland has achieved and how it has coped with EU membership. We wish to learn from Ireland's 30 years experience of utilising the benefits and opportunities of membership of the European Union. It is our intention to learn from the Irish experiences. In the report on Hungary's progress which will be issued soon certain shortcomings or gaps in Hungarian preparedness will be outlined. In the few months we still have until the time of accession, we would like to catch up and to complete the legislative work.

Over the past 13 years, we have taken significant steps toward approximating the European Union and achieving accession just as we have managed to take considerable steps toward building democracy and a stronger economy. The best example of our efforts in this regard is the fact that 88% of our foreign trade turnover is tied to the member states of the European Union, one of which is Ireland. In other words, it is not only politically but economically that we are interested in achieving our accession successfully. The composition of our delegation reflects these interests. In the Hungarian Parliament there is no one who would challenge the accession of our country. There is no debate on that issue.

Each member of our delegation represents a political group which is represented in the Hungarian Parliament. In other words, all four factions are represented by the representatives who form part of our delegation. As committee members will be aware, there is a single chamber in the Hungarian Parliament. Currently, there are four parties which fulfil their functions within the scope of the Parliament. Mr. István Szabó and Mr. Caspody represent two of the opposition parties while Mr. Gulyás, Mr. Gyula Szabó and I represent the governing parties. I am a representative of the Alliance of Free Democrats. To summarise, our aims are shared by all parliamentary groups. In the period leading up toHungarian accession, we will fulfil all objectives.

It is a special pleasure to see an extensive description of our country published today in a newspaper with such a large circulation.

Chairman

Hungary has a good ambassador here.

Dr. Wekler

I was about to say that the publication of the feature was due to Hungary's accredited ambassador. It is also perhaps true that it was partly due to the maturing interest in Hungary which Ireland is showing. An interest in Ireland and the Irish people has matured in Hungary already. Hungarian people travel to Ireland in considerable numbers. One member of the delegation spent his two week summer holiday here this year. It should also be mentioned that in the European Union, which will soon have 25 members, the co-operation between small and medium sized countries should focus on ensuing their shared and individual interests are observed.

Chairman

At this stage, Deputy Gay Mitchell, a committee member and Chairman of the Joint Committee on European Affairs, will make a contribution.

Deputy G. Mitchell

I will avoid asking questions about Europe as I will have an opportunity to speak about European issues with the delegation tomorrow. I join the Chairm

an in welcoming our colleagues to the committee. I wish them well on their visit. While it is not mentioned in the brief, as far as I know an Irish company has the largest milk round in Budapest. That is good for the people of that city and even better for the people of Ireland.

I was struck by Mr. Caspody's biographical note according to which he is interested inTransylvanian literature. On his way out, he might cross Kildare Street to see the former residence of Bram Stoker who was also interested in Transylvanian issues.

I take the opportunity to ask the delegation about Iraq and NATO. I understand that Hungary's level of participation in NATO might not be that which it anticipated when it joined the organisation. What are the reasons for that? Where do the difficulties lie? Is there a reticence on the part of Hungary or on the part of its NATO partners? I understand there are 300 Hungarian troops in Iraq. What has been the experience of those soldiers and where does the delegation see the Iraq situation going? How will stability be returned to Iraq and what role is there for the international community in that country?

Mr. Miklos Caspody

I thank Deputy GayMitchell for his opening remark and for his question. I did not expect a question on my area of interest to be addressed to me in Dublin.

The presence of the Hungarian battalion in Iraq, and their experience there, forms the basis of a timely question. We do not wish to see them there. I mean that not only in the general world political sense, but also in the context of our 1948 constitution and the current regulations governing this field which tend to be strict and tight. We had to work very carefully on this and we had to find a way to make it possible. There have been differences of opinions in domestic policy on this subject only because a decision on a topic such as this requires the support of the vast majority of the members of the Parliament. It does not simply require a decision by the Government.

As far as the status of the Hungarian soldiers is concerned, we are satisfied with their activities. They fulfil transportation and logistical tasks and our allies are satisfied with their performance. It is important to note that we feel a certain concern that guerrilla activities may intensify in their area of operations. Our troops have been active in Faluja, Tikrit and the northern parts of Iraq. Our allies have been satisfied with the activities and performance of our soldiers to the extent that they may become involved in similar activities in the southern part of the country also. Thus far, they have been working on transporting various items in bulk. They have, therefore, participated in voluminous transportation activities and have also been involved in humanitarian activities.

Hungarian soldiers will remain in Iraq for as long as there are tasks of this nature to perform. While the war has finished, at the same time it is continuing from the perspective of world policy. The fact that we are in Iraq is a consequence of the events which have taken place in the country. We will remain there until a firm footing has been established for making the first steps towards building democracy. We are optimistic and hope this comes about within a reasonable time. Unfortunately, however, it is clear that tasks await us. The Hungarian Parliament last week extended by unanimous vote the period Hungarian soldiers will stay in Iraq to the end of 2004. Will the Deputy repeat the question he asked concerning NATO?

Deputy G. Mitchell

Was the experience of joining NATO disappointing for Hungary? Did the country under perform in reaching the objectives it set itself on joining NATO? What has been its experience of NATO membership?

Dr. Wekler

Becoming a member of NATO was strategically important for Hungary at the beginning of the 1990s because we had just emerged from a period of more than 40 years of occupation by the Soviets. In providing a security guarantee, NATO membership allowed the building of democracy in Hungary to proceed. I have already elaborated on other issues stemming from NATO membership.

Our accession to NATO imposed on us the task to implement the reform of the Hungarian armed forces, which has placed a substantial financial burden on the national economy. A significant amount of money, which could be used to support other purposes such as the development of infrastructure, must be spent on fulfilling this task. We acknowledge, however, that the country needs to complete this process. Our membership of NATO is no longer a topic of day-to-day conversation or public discourse because we now take it for granted.

Deputy Davern

I welcome the delegation and congratulate its members on the positive outcome of the referendum on membership of the European Union. I understand that most of the eastern European countries share a problem with regard to borders. How will the accession countries monitor their borders? Will they require help from the European Union to perform this task, given that most of the people entering European countries illegally do so over land? Ireland is an exception in that one must fly here or travel by boat. I understand Hungary will have some problems in this respect.

Chairman

The European Union has, I believe, allocated €147 million for border security.

Dr. Wekler

The Deputy's question directly addressed the core of the matter because a large number of people of Hungarian descent live in neighbouring countries. In other words, there are significant Hungarian minorities in neighbouring states. The extension of the Schengen border system to cover Hungary, therefore, raises a delicate issue. On the one hand, we do not want anyone to cross Hungarian borders for the purposes of illegal migration, while on the other hand we do not want members of Hungarian minority groups in Romania, Serbia and Croatia to encounter difficulties when travelling to Hungary. This topic is a source of intense and vivid debate, which has not been free of emotion and has been expressed in many different ways.

As far as the other aspect of Deputy GayMitchell's question is concerned, the Hungarian Parliament is currently discussing next year's budget, a chapter of which covers Hungary's contribution to the cost of constructing the Schengen border system. This figure will be added to the €148 million to which the Chairman referred. In other words, we will build a system of infrastructure on our borders to ensure we comply with the terms of the Schengen agreement.

On the other hand, bilateral talks and negotiations are taking place with representatives from the relevant neighbouring countries in an effort to find ways to facilitate access to Hungary by those Hungarians living outside the borders. One suggestion was to introduce visas free of charge. We have also concluded several agreements with neighbouring countries on this topic. The people in question do not, however, appear to be fully satisfied with this as a solution, which is the reason we have proposed that the protection of the rights of minority groups and national minorities should figure in the text of the European constitution.

Mr. Istaván Szabó

I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to appear before it. I will briefly add to Dr. Wekler's explanation on the issue of our borders. Hungary has never been a target country for illegal immigration and has always been considered a transit country. It has always shown a co-operative attitude towards the countries of the west on the migration issue, functioned as a filter, so to speak, through which migrants are screened. The migration flow started in the eastern area of the Balkans and proceeded towards the west. It is obvious that Hungary will do everything possible to fulfil this task as expected and in an appropriate manner, serving as a filter to screen and limit migration. We will construct a border control system as expected in order that it functions efficiently and properly, as required.

The volume of financial support made available for this purpose is well known. We should not, however, exclude the possibility that more funding may be needed if times and conditions require or future developments dictate it is required. This does not mean, however, that Hungary will not do everything possible in its power to comply with the terms and conditions of the Schengen system within the current financial framework.

I return to the question raised concerning NATO. Hungarians are not disappointed by NATO membership. At the time Hungary was admitted to NATO, member states were precisely aware of the state of affairs in which the Hungarian military found itself. For our part, we will make every possible effort to comply with the terms set by NATO. While these requirements may not appear to some to be significant or specific, they require substantial effort on our part. All the significant political forces in Hungary are aware that we need to meet the requirements which stem from our membership of NATO. Hungary is one of the accession countries which considers NATO a guarantee for security in Europe.

Deputy M. Higgins

I join my colleagues in welcoming the delegation. It is good they have come and I welcome the fact that Irish Ministers and parliamentarians have made so many visits to Hungary in recent years. We have probably not made sufficient use of our mutual cultural relations. In ancient history, Hungary was a crucial country in the transmigration of the Celts. There is, therefore, a substantial connection between our countries.

In the contemporary period, the arrival of countries such as Hungary should help fill the gap in the cultural area, the most neglected aspect of the European Union. Many of us had looked to the accession countries to fill this gap and it is still our hope that the issue will arise in the discussions on accession. Before we ever heard of the Hungarian application to join the European Union, many of us were aware of Hungarian film directors as well as poets who had been translated into English by Seamus Heaney and others. In addition, Hungarian music education is light years ahead of Ireland. Music education in Hungary, and many other accession countries, is much more advanced than here where it is poor.

I have just two questions, the first of which I have asked of most countries which intend to join the European Union. How much social protection has been sacrificed to secure economic growth? In every one of the accession countries from which this committee has received a delegation, economic growth has resulted in costs in the areas of health, housing, education, pensions and so forth. Those of us who campaigned for widening the European Union were in no doubt as to the nature of the social Europe and social economy we wanted.

My second question addresses the issue of NATO and, more specifically, Iraq. Lest the delegation is given the impression that Ireland has joined NATO or is anxious to do so, we are not yet members of the organisation. I must be direct in my statement on Iraq. Foreign policy in every country in Europe, at European level and in the transatlantic alliance has been changed crucially by the war in Iraq. Speaking as the Labour Party spokesperson on foreign affairs, I must state that the current role of Poland in Iraq and its relationship with the occupation forces has completely changed that country's position in Europe. It would be dishonest to say that views such as mine on Hungary's relationship with Iraq have not made a difference - they have.

I am not making a statement from a high moral ground as our relationship with the United States is, to describe it in its mildest form, ambiguous. The interesting aspect of this matter is that the Hungarian and Polish presence in Iraq has led the current Administration in the United States to speak of old and new Europe. As a European I must ask myself how European and American is new Europe and how have matters changed. It would be entirely wrong to pretend the role of certain countries in Iraq has not made a difference because it has made a significant difference.

I have great sympathy for the disaster that is Iraq. I also have great sympathy for the Hungarian people who are now there. It is my wish that we can move to a new stage where an Iraqi-led stability may emerge. What prompts me to ask some of these questions is the fact that the 3,000 Iraqi exiles that were trained as liaison officers in Hungary must have had a difficult time. They were the ones who would have been describing the sweets and the flowers that were to be thrown before the liberating forces and now they are probably sheltering from bombs, rockets, guns and so forth. Where did these Iraqi exiles come from? They seem to have been very unpopular in Iraq when they went back. It would be very unreal if distinguished parliamentarians like our visitors did not hear it exactly as I understand it. I will be discussing this next week in Parliament in the same way. Everyone who has been dragged into this by the coalition occupation has been damaged.

Chairman

Deputy Higgins is a former Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. Most of us want to see enterprise with social balance in the European Union, for which we constantly do battle. Although Deputy Higgins is a member of a different party, we served together in Cabinet, where, I think he would agree, I sought social balance, as we all do. It is something typically European. This is something that we will, perhaps, be stressing in future in the corridors of the Commission and the Council meetings and we may be allies in that regard.

Deputy O’Donnell

My point is a brief one given the shortage of time. I am pleased that the Hungarian referendum was in favour of membership of the European Union. It is important for a country like Ireland, which had to put the question on the issue of enlargement twice to the people, to say that, although the Irish people rejected the Nice treaty on the first occasion, it was plain during the course of a lively democratic debate that the problem for Irish people was not the enlargement of the European Union to the east but rather domestic issues of sovereignty and fears about our military neutrality. Our people have always been very optimistic and progressive about the issue of enlarging Europe to the east, quite simply because we are a small trading nation which exports up to 90% of everything we produce. It is very much in our economic, social and political interest that we have these extra markets to the east.

The delegations visit here is timely as our Taoiseach will lead a major trade delegation toHungary later this month with Enterprise Ireland. We look forward to deepening our economic engagement with Hungary.

Although there was a positive outcome to the referendum there was quite a low voter turnout. To what is that attributed, given the significance and importance of the decision for the country?

Deputy Carey

I, too, welcome the delegation and hope its members enjoy their stay.

The results of an opinion poll published in one of Ireland's weekend papers suggests that the Irish people are divided fairly equally about the need to have reference to a Christian deity in the European constitution. A slight majority is in favour of such an inclusion with those aged under 40 very much against. What is the Hungarian Government's position on the inclusion of a reference to God in the European constitution and does that view coincide with the view of the Hungarian people?

Dr. Wekler

I am pleased that we have received a number of questions because it indicates a keen interest in these matters. It is also a hint that, perhaps, tomorrow afternoon we will be able to continue discussion on these topics.

I will begin by answering the last question. The official Hungarian position is that while Hungary is not against the inclusion of such a reference, it does not urge or encourage it to happen either. As a historian I do not believe this part of the text reflects a proper historical approach because neither the Celts nor the Hungarians were Christians at the time they first came to Europe.

In response to the question on why the Hungarian referendum turnout was so low, it was similar to the case here, that there were domestic political reasons for it. On the one hand, the vast majority of the Hungarian population believed that the referendum result would be positive because there is no real opposition in the country to accession. On the other hand, and I do not wish to start a new debate on this topic, the opposition was not interested in intensifying participation and, thereby, increasing the legitimacy of the Government by generating a higher turnout.

We are pleased to hear that a great number of economic experts will come to Hungary to inquire about investment opportunities. There seems to be considerable interest on the part of Irish investors. We would also be pleased to conclude agreements through which Hungarian producers would be given the opportunity to gain new ground in foreign markets. Perhaps, with the participation of other parties, our products could be exported to third countries as well.

Deputy Higgins raised a number of issues and problems, so many, in fact, that I am unable to reply in depth to them on this occasion. Hungary would have preferred if this military activity had taken place with the support of the United Nations and if the struggles that have been taking place since then had also come to an end.

Changing the system to a market economy and not the development since then caused the real trauma in Hungary. We admit that, as has been referred to by the Deputy, some areas in Hungary, of which the health system is one, are still in need of reform.

We are open to cultural co-operation going back as far as the Celtic period. I favour an exchange of know-how and experience between our countries. We would be prepared to transfer our experience in the area of music education in exchange for information on how to use the funding resources of the European Union. We would be only too pleased to welcome people who could help us in this respect.

I thank the Chairman for giving us this opportunity. We wish to express our thanks by presenting a small token to the committee. We look forward to future co-operation.

Chairman

I thank Dr. Wekler and his fellow members of Parliament for joining us today. We did not have an opportunity to discuss our mutual interest in potatoes. We have been invited to visit Hungary by the chairman of the foreign affairs committee and we look forward to doing so in December. We wish Hungary every success in its accession.

Sitting suspended at 3.29 p.m. and resumed at 3.32 p.m.