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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Monday, 29 Mar 2004

The EU - The View from Outside: Statements

Excellencies, distinguished Chairpersons and members of delegations, I am delighted to welcome you to Dublin Castle. I am happy to see that you are all set to start on the dot at 10 o'clock and look forward to a good day's deliberations. I had planned that the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, would be with us but, as some of you will know, he has had to preside over an EU-Arab summit which, unfortunately for us, was called just at this time, but the Minister of State in his Department will speak to us later.

It is my great pleasure to welcome you. I now invite the Ceann Comhairle, or Speaker of the House, to welcome you and make some introductory remarks. The Ceann Comhairle is Dr. Rory O'Hanlon. He is a medical doctor, a general practitioner. As I am a doctor of science, if you are not feeling well it is the Speaker you must go to and he will put you right. Deputy O'Hanlon has great experience of working in Government and he represents the constituency of Cavan-Monaghan which is close to the Border. He has been a Minister on numerous occasions. His principal contribution as a Minister was in the then Department of Health, although he also had responsibility for social affairs and for a number of other areas.

It is a great honour for me to be here this morning to welcome you to Ireland for this important two-day conference. I have no doubt you will be well looked after by my good friend and parliamentary colleague, Deputy Woods, Chairman of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. I am also glad to see another very good friend and parliamentary colleague, Deputy Pat Carey, with us this morning.

It is a good time to be in Ireland while we hold the Presidency of the EU. The most significant event of this six month Presidency will be the accession of new member states on 1 May and I am glad to see representatives of the ten accession countries here today.

The European Union, in my view, is the second greatest political achievement in the history of mankind, the first being the establishment of democracy itself. We owe a debt of gratitude to the vision of people like Robert Schuman who saw the opportunity to create a peaceful, prosperous Europe imbued with social consciousness. The great achievements of the EU, particularly in peace between the nations of Europe, the high standards of human and civil rights and the economic development in Europe, stand as the legacy of those visionaries who foresaw the establishment of the European Union.

While there is peace between the nations of Europe we must be mindful of the acts of terrorism which have been perpetrated on European soil, particularly the most recent atrocity in Madrid. I take this opportunity to offer my sympathy to the delegates from Spain and to the Spanish people on this appalling act of violence.

The Irish have always been good Europeans. As far back as the 6th century illustrious Irish scholars travelled throughout Europe where they established centres of learning and monasteries. Down through the centuries the Irish had much contact with Europe. Many Irish travelled to Europe to further their education and to join the great armies of Europe.

When we joined the EEC in 1973 we adapted very rapidly to the new situation, playing a considerable part in building the new Europe and gladly accepting the opportunities created. Ireland's economic success came about as a result of a number of important initiatives at home as well as the support from the EU. Having joined in 1973, our overnight success took about 20 years.

The development of an effective committee system is the hallmark of a successful parliamentary democracy and enhances the role of Parliament in keeping Government accountable, with the added dimension of providing greater transparency in political life. This is no more evident than in the area of foreign affairs. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs has had considerable impact on many aspects of parliamentary work. Most importantly, it has provided Parliament with its own informed voice on foreign affairs. Up to ten years ago the Dáil would have been dependent on the occasional debate, mainly on legislation dealing with this area in plenary session. While the debate usually was informative, the proceedings tended to reflect the adversarial nature of politics and often would break down on party lines.

The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs has changed this considerably. While the debates in plenary session still take place, they are complemented, and indeed enhanced, by a proactive joint committee which has hearings and takes an informed view on the major issues of the day. Another equally important outcome of the joint committee is that it gives the backbencher a direct role in shaping policy. As time marches on, the joint committee becomes more established and a recognised independent voice on foreign affairs in its own right.

In an age where the political profession the world over is much maligned and by the same token parliamentary institutions are not held in the high regard they should be, the positive work of joint committees may seem a little abstract to the ordinary person in the street. However, as parliamentarians, we know that we ignore foreign affairs at our peril. We have only to look at the number of times in recent years that issues such as Iraq and the war against terrorism have become centre stage in our own parliaments. Parliamentarians like ourselves, who have the honour to serve our people, can see the value of committees, especially in the area of foreign affairs, which enhance our understanding of the complex world in which we live. This is why what you are about to engage in today is so important. It gives the opportunity to network, to hear different opinions from different countries on the issues of the day and to develop friendships. That opportunity is there during the next two days.

I wish to make a brief reference to the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body established in 1990, consisting of 25 parliamentarians from the Oireachtas and 25 from Westminster. That body made a very worthwhile contribution to the peace process in Northern Ireland by bringing together parliamentary representatives of Britain and Ireland, both of whom had a special interest in Northern Ireland.

The body provided the opportunity for backbenchers to meet, discuss the issues, understand each other's point of view and remove misunderstandings which had been there for decades. There had not previously been an opportunity for the parliamentarians to meet together, apart perhaps from a very limited opportunity within the Council of Europe. The body created an environment where it was easier for the Governments to make progress and also had an important contribution to make to the policies, which brought about agreement.

Finally, I shall say a few words about the work of the Athens Group, a working group established by the European Union Speakers Conference in Athens in May 2003 to discuss parliamentary co-operation between parliaments within the European Union. The group met in Stockholm in October 2003. The basis for the discussions was the European Convention's draft protocol on the role of national parliaments in the European Union, which suggests, "The European Parliament and national parliaments shall together determine how interparliamentary co-operation may be effectively and regularly organised and promoted within the European Union."

Following this meeting the views of all parliaments were sought in a questionnaire, the results of which were considered at a further meeting of the Athens Group in November 2003. The draft guidelines have been issued since, and they set the historic basis for the work of the Athens Group. It is proposed and hoped that the guidelines will be adopted at the Conference of Speakers in the Netherlands in July 2004. The identified and agreed objectives are threefold and deal with information and work at national parliamentary level in EU affairs; competencies of national parliaments in EU matters such as subsidiarity control and dealing with Green and White Papers; and co-operation between national parliaments and the European Parliament.

It is proposed that the framework for enhanced co-operation should include the Conference of EU Speakers; the Conference of Secretaries General; the representatives from national parliaments in Brussels; IPEX - the electronic information exchange website; COSAC; and the ECPRD - the European Centre for Parliamentary Research and Documentation. The framework is simply the expression of all or the most frequent structured contact, either in person or, correspondence, that parliaments have with one another.

It is proposed that interparliamentary EU co-operation is of value in the fields of subsidiarity control; exchange of information and documents; conferences and other events; certain political areas, including external relations, which would be of interest to those present; defence and security policy; external trade issues such as the World Trade Organisation; justice and home affairs; parliamentary control of Europol; budget control; and scrutiny of the ECB.

The subsidiarity principle in its simplest terms is the principle that decisions should be taken at the lowest level consistent with effective action within a political system. The subsidiarity principle is intended to ensure that decisions are taken as closely as possible to the citizen and that constant checks are made as to whether action at European Community level is justified in the light of the possibilities available at national, regional or local level. Specifically, it is the principle whereby the Union does not take action, except in the areas which fall within its exclusive competence, unless it is more effective than action taken at national, regional or local level. It is closely bound up with the principles of proportionality and necessity, which require that any action by the Union should not go beyond what is necessary to achieve the objectives of the treaty.

The new constitutional treaty will provide a new role for national parliaments in the scrutiny of the subsidiarity principle. In essence, the new arrangements will provide that, if within sixty days of the publication of a legislative proposal, one third of national parliaments express reservations about the proposal on the basis of the principle of subsidiarity, the proposal will be re-evaluated to resolve the subsidiarity issue. This new role essentially imposes a timescale within which the guidelines will have to be agreed and implemented to ensure that parliaments are ready to fulfil their responsibilities when the treaty has been agreed. It is proposed that IPEX will be the tool used by parliaments to co-operate on subsidiarity control. It is proposed to use IPEX to publish information on conferences and meetings as well as relevant documents.

There has been much debate on the language regime to be used in conferences. At present the rules of COSAC provide that interpretation will be available in all official languages of the EU, of which there will be 20 after 1 May 2004. Aside from the cost of this, there are significant technical and administrative difficulties in providing it. It is generally recognised that many member states do not need or require interpretation in their own language. However, despite the long debates at both the Conference of Speakers and COSAC on this issue, we are no nearer a solution.

The guidelines will include a proposal that interpretation should only be provided in English and French with additional technical facilities made available by the host country in the event that a delegation wishes to bring their own interpreter. This issue is to be discussed at COSAC in May and this solution is clearly the most popular one at the moment.

There are one or two other points I wish to make very briefly. The first concerns the information deficit among the people, particularly about what is happening in Europe, and the question of how the member states address that. We should at some time invite the members of the European Parliament into our own parliament and devote a week to discussing European and foreign affairs.

The other question I wish to raise is that of terminology used in describing the different chambers, particularly where one has a bicameral parliament. Sometimes it is difficult for people to understand whether it is the lower house or upper house. It is not that we would went to get rid of the names of Dáil Éireann, the House of Commons or any other parliament, but when we are meeting together as Europeans we might have some terminology to describe whether one is talking about the lower or upper house.

Again I welcome you all to Ireland. Any good Speaker who cared for his or her parliamentary colleagues would advise you to work very hard at the conference sessions, but equally importantly he would tell you to enjoy yourselves and let your hair down at the social events, particularly when in this country.

Dr. O'Hanlon and his wife, Theresa, will attend the dinner in Farmleigh this evening.

From the 12th to the 20th century this castle was the seat of power in Ireland. Whoever held this place by force of arms held power over Dublin and most of the eastern part of the island - the area called the Pale. The Pale was also the name given to the long wall of timber and mud which enclosed the lands around Dublin and divided the island into two parts. To be outside the Pale was seen by those inside as being outside civilisation and the law. There is still a bit of that attitude around even at this stage. Of course, that depended on one's perspective. There was an ancient civilisation outside with its own laws and customs but it was not recognised by the society that lived within.

That is enough about our ancient history for today. Now we are looking forward to 1 May 2004, when we welcome the ten acceding countries into the European Union. Ireland is proud to hold the Presidency of the Union at such an historic time. Those ten nations are represented here today - Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Malta and Cyprus, and the candidates, Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey. We should give them a round of applause as our own welcome for 1 May, which is only a month away.

This will be the greatest enlargement to date and will be followed by more acceding states in the not too distant future. When the European Community was being conceived in the early 1950s the political landscape of the day was such that its founders could scarcely have imagined this current enlargement. There was a wall then too, but it was across Europe. Thankfully that wall has now gone. The European Union cannot claim sole or even the main credit for its collapse but we have been the main beneficiaries of its removal.

Ireland joined the then European Economic Community in 1973, and our national life at all levels has been greatly enriched by the experience. Many books and papers have been written on the subject of Ireland's economic success since then, and I do not propose to go into that subject now because it would obviously take a much longer conference, but I draw attention to a less commented on aspect of Ireland's experience. One of the intangible benefits that we received from membership was a revitalised sense of national self-confidence. This was not based upon military power or economic prowess but on our being accepted and welcomed as equals around the European table and a dawning recognition that our culture is attractive and has something to offer to people outside this island.

Our participation in the Union allowed cultural benefits to flow both ways as we learnt from our European colleagues and they learnt from us. The realisation that we were not just supplicants at the European table was a very positive thing for Irish culture and for our confidence. The ten new acceding countries also bring with them ten different ways of looking at the world and different languages, cultures and historical experiences. They join the Union with the rightful expectation that membership will, over time, confer substantial economic benefits, and they are entitled to the supports from which earlier entrants, including Ireland, benefited to allow their economies to catch up.

However, it would be a serious mistake for current members to think that the benefits will flow in one direction only - towards the applicants. I am certain that this enlargement will also enrich the Union in many unexpected ways, with new ideas and new diversity, and in many ways that are not yet obvious to us. Enlargement will also bring the European Union closer to some of the problems facing the world today, including ethnic tensions in the Balkans, civil conflict in the Caucasus, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and issues such as illegal immigration and trafficking in people and drugs which will all have to be faced together.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is of particular and immediate concern. Events there have entered a downward spiral, which seems to have developed its own inexorable momentum. This conflict is poisoning the West's relations with the Arab and Muslim world. It is breeding terrorism and injustice and destroying respect for the rule of law, democracy and proper judicial procedures. The West is seen by many to turn a blind eye to Israeli failures to honour the commitments required of it in various UN resolutions while other states are held fully to account. This is undermining support for the UN-based system of international security. This conflict, and the war in Iraq, have also driven a wedge between the US and the EU and distracted them from what should be common efforts to combat terrorism.

Delegates will have seen the agenda for our meeting, and I hope it contains subjects of interest to everybody and provokes lively debate. We will start with a session on the EU's policies towards its new neighbours. I know that many of the delegations here have great expertise on the subject. With the present enlargement and the prospect of three more states, Romania, Bulgaria and Turkey, joining in the near future, the Union's borders will move eastward and southward.

Relations with the remaining partner countries in the Barcelona process, the Russian Federation, Ukraine, the Balkan states, Moldova and Belarus, will take on an even greater importance. The Barcelona process includes 12 non-EU members, and of these Malta and Cyprus will join the EU on 1 May and Turkey will receive an indication in December 2004 on whether and when the Union is ready to start accession negotiations. The nine other states are Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Israel, the Palestinian Authority, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.

It would be appropriate to have a debate today on the EU's relations with these countries on our new borders. During the past year I have had the privilege of meeting with many of my counterparts in the acceding countries, and I was constantly struck by how much they know about the countries to the east and south of the Union. Indeed many of the delegations here will have an extensive knowledge of and detailed experience in dealing with these countries, gained through their shared histories and proximity. I know they have very well thought out views on how we should advance relations with these neighbouring states and on what steps are needed next to develop relations with them. I look forward to hearing these views.

In the afternoon we will continue with a discussion on the prospects for stability and development in Africa. The African continent has been conspicuous for many years for the stream of bad news that comes from there. Large parts of it are blighted by war, famine and disease, among which the biggest killers are HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria.

Africa has not shared in the wealth creation brought about by globalisation. In many African countries GDP per capita is lower now than when independence was gained some 40 years ago. While other developing countries in Asia and Latin America suffer economic and political crises from time to time, the overall trend is undeniably upwards. The Irish Presidency of the Union has listed Africa as one of our main foreign policy priorities. It is vital that we keep Africa on the agenda at the highest level and I am confident that you share this view.

The question I ask today is what we, as parliamentarians, can do to help Africa. I would like to suggest a few areas where we can make a difference. First, we can make sure that our Governments honour the commitments they have already made. We are all committed by the millennium development goals to do all we can to eradicate poverty, promote human dignity and achieve peace, democracy and environmental sustainability. The financial commitments we agreed at Monterrey in 2002 must be honoured. We can also put pressure on other donor Governments who have made the same pledges to honour their commitments.

Many of our Governments have also made commitments to achieve the UN objective of spending 0.7% of GDP per annum on overseas development aid. Ireland's Government has committed itself to reaching and sustaining this target by 2007. We reached a level of 0.41 % in 2003. My committee will be making sure there is no slippage in this commitment and that substantial progress is made annually towards this goal. Your committees can also pressurise your Governments to ensure that they make progress towards the UN target. Of course the EU has set an interim target of 0.39%.

Second, we can make sure that moneys allocated from the EU budget to development aid are spent and that if they are not spent within the timeframe allocated, they are retained for development aid and not absorbed back into the EU budget. Any new priorities we decide on such as the fight against terrorism must not be allowed to divert moneys from development aid. New priorities must be funded with new moneys.

Third, we can support the efforts being made by African countries to fight poverty and to transform their institutions to allow for economic growth. The New Partnership for Africa's Development, NEPAD, is a hopeful sign that the African leaders are serious about their desire to end poverty and to reform their own institutions. NEPAD recognises that not only the donors but also the African countries have duties and responsibilities. There is a new focus on good governance and institutional and civil reform, which are essential preconditions of sustainable development. While it is too early to say whether it will be a success, we should support it and give it every chance to succeed.

Fourth, we should redouble our efforts to meet the concerns of the developing world in the WTO post-Cancún talks. We should support their efforts to enter the global trading system and must do more to ensure that our trade and agricultural policies do not harm producers and markets in the developing world. The UNCTAD conference in Saõ Paulo next June will give us an opportunity to hear the concerns of the developing world. This is not an easy issue to resolve but we must begin the process.

Fifth, we can prioritise the fight against AIDS/HIV. This disease is now the greatest obstacle to development in Africa. More resources must be devoted to fighting its spread. The global fund to counteract HIV/AIDS, TB and malaria must be supported. Low cost sustained and affordable treatment, including generic drugs, must be made available to fight the pandemic.

Sixth, we must work together to improve the coherence of our development policies, increase efficiencies and eliminate duplication. These are just a few ideas which, if implemented, will make a significant difference to the lives of millions of people in Africa and would contribute to a safer, more secure and more just world.

This afternoon we will hear a presentation from Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs, Deputy Dick Roche, on Ireland's EU Presidency priorities. I will leave the details of this dossier to my colleague, Deputy Roche, but I know that uppermost in your minds will be the prospects for an agreement on the final form of a European constitution. The Italian Presidency worked tirelessly towards this goal and left us with a solid basis with which to continue this work. We applaud their work and say that if a solution is now achieved, it is built on the work that went before and on the spirit of compromise that has prevailed during these negotiations.

There is growing optimism that a deal may be possible over the next few weeks. This afternoon the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, will give you the latest details on the negotiations. I want to say a few words on why it is imperative that we reach agreement soon. The political reality is that we have a narrow window in which to work. If we do not reach agreement by mid-June, as agreed last week in Lisbon, then the reality is that the European political system will be preoccupied with the aftermath of elections to the European Parliament and with the appointment of a new Commission. Enlargement will also impose its own responsibilities as we seek to gain experience in how to work effectively together as a college of 25 states.

Following the elections and the summer break the EU will begin the serious negotiations on a new financial perspective for the Union. This will determine the distribution of the financial burden and the financial priorities of the Union for the next six years. It is always a protracted negotiation and this year will be no different. It is also the nature of such negotiations that linkages may be made with positions taken on the constitution if we have not got through it by that stage.

Other domestic and international priorities are likely to exercise the attentions of our Governments towards the end of the year. In short, the momentum will be lost and it will be difficult or impossible to return the issue to the centre of the agenda. The people of Europe deserve better. The constitution will be nobody's perfect document; that is the nature of a negotiated compromise, but crucially it will provide an agreed basis for the further development of the Union and for explaining the Union to its citizens. Great efforts have been made thus far and a great spirit of compromise has been shown by all delegations. Because of the goodwill, I am hopeful that the finishing line is now in sight. We will hear more about that this evening from the Minister of State, Deputy Roche.

At 5 o'clock this afternoon I will have the pleasure of welcoming the Taoiseach to this meeting when he will address us and give further insight into the negotiations on the constitution.

I am delighted that tomorrow morning we will hear the views of the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, on progress towards the goals set out in the Lisbon Agenda. You will be aware that much of last week's Spring European Council of Heads of State and Government was devoted to this subject. We have an excellent panel for that debate tomorrow morning. It is made up of people who are deeply involved and whose views will be particularly interesting.

The Lisbon Agenda is the kind of background work which, although vitally important to the lives of every citizen because it will impact directly on their standard of living, often excites little positive media or public interest, except perhaps to question its ambition and direction. It is a hugely ambitious project spread over a ten-year timeframe. Its goal is nothing less than the transformation of the way that our educational, research, social and business systems are organised in order to deliver a better quality of life to our citizens and to improve Europe's competitiveness in an increasingly competitive and globalised world. While some countries within our membership are doing very well, on average we must rise to the level at which the United States is operating. That is one of the main challenges in the global market.

If the Lisbon Agenda is a success, no doubt its success will be attributed by many commentators to other factors. If we fail, then blame will be laid squarely with our governments. In the world in which we live, however, it is unthinkable that we should not set these objectives for ourselves. Europe can and will find a way to organise and to compete with best practice worldwide, while still maintaining our aspiration to deliver a decent quality of life for every citizen. I am sure that the Tánaiste's contribution tomorrow will provide a fascinating insight into how we are performing and on what we still need to do to achieve the goals set by Lisbon. That debate will conclude the business of the meeting. I expect that we should be able to finish by mid-day tomorrow.

I am conscious that our time is limited and that there are 28 delegations here, all of whom will wish to contribute to the debates at some point. If we could keep contributions in the other sessions to three minutes, then that would be helpful. I suspect that without strict discipline, managing speaking time in the newly enlarged Union may become one of the Presidency's most onerous and thankless tasks. Without further ado and to set a good example, I will conclude my opening address.

Sitting suspended at 10.45 a.m. and resumed at 11 a.m.

We have received regrets from Elmar Brok, MEP, whom we all know very well as the chairman of the European Parliament Foreign Affairs Committee. He is temporarily unwell and unable to travel. Of course, Norbert Gresch, Deputy Head of Division, Secretariat of the Foreign Affairs Committee, is here, but Elmar wants to send his regrets because he was looking forward to meeting many of his friends.

The next session is on the EU's policies towards its neighbours after enlargement. My colleague, Deputy Pat Carey, will chair this session. Deputy Carey is an elected Member of the Dáil and has played a major part, with others, in the work on the new constitution as one of Ireland's representatives in the Convention. Deputy Carey will introduce the speakers and chair the session.

We now move on to our first working session. Three keynote speakers will speak for ten to 15 minutes each, after which the delegates will have an opportunity to speak. We would all like to hear plenty of contributions. If people wish to put their names forward to speak they can fill in one of the forms and give it to any members of the conference secretariat in the hall and it will be listed.

This topic is the EU's policies towards its neighbours after enlargement. Those of us who attended the session last night will have heard, for example, Ambassador Rakhmanin of the Russian Federation indicate some of his perspectives on the new labour initiative of the European Union. Coincidentally, I happened to be in Addis Ababa two weeks ago, where I had the opportunity of attending the opening and inaugural session of the pan-African Parliament. I had the opportunity of hearing some of the perspectives of that parliament as far as its relationship with the EU is concerned.

We are talking about a fairly rapidly evolving situation. Our first speaker is Ms Barbara Jones, who works in our Department of Foreign Affairs. She looks after the eastern European area, the OECD and the Council of Europe. She is standing in for the Minister of State, Deputy Dick Roche, who in turn is deputising for the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Brian Cowen, who is at a Troika meeting. I invite Ms Jones to address the delegates.

Ms Barbara Jones

I pass on the Minister's apologies for not being able to sit in on this session, and he is certainly looking forward to joining the group later today. It is a great honour for me to represent our Department and talk to the delegates about our perspectives on the European Union's neighbourhood policy at this point in our Presidency.

I am a councillor-level official in the Foreign Ministry and work with a very small team of people in Brussels and Dublin on the evolution of the policy. I am chairing the COEST working group in Brussels, which looks at the political core issues at the heart of the neighbourhood policy.

The context for the neighbourhood policy is well known. Deputy Carey mentioned the Russian Ambassador's perspective on it and I am glad he did so because, quite clearly, the context for the neighbourhood policy is the changing geopolitical landscape in Europe. The delegates know that better than the foreign ministries do because it is obviously a live issue in the national parliaments.

The consequence of enlargement we in Ireland certainly do not want is the re-drawing of the borders of Europe, which will happen, leading to any sort of division or to new dividing lines replacing old ones. Therefore, the Union urgently needs to frame a comprehensive approach of co-operation with its direct neighbours after enlargement. Clearly, this is new territory for the Union in terms of its policy approach because we are in a new context.

If I may be frank, the evolution of this policy has certainly given rise to some concerns among the neighbours. It certainly has not been well received by the Russian Federation, which has misunderstood it as some sort of straitjacket the Union is trying to impose upon its relations with the EU in place of the strategic partnership, which exists already.

In the south Caucasus, for example, the announcement of the neighbourhood policy also gave rise to concerns, but I will come to that a little later. The origin of the policy approach arose from a letter, which Jack Straw wrote to the Council in January 2003, in which he specifically called for a comprehensive policy response to the challenges of enlargement on the new eastern border. That paper was very well received by the Council and was brought forward into the Commission, which looked at it very carefully and brought forward an elaborate and comprehensive communication on the European Union's wider Europe neighbourhood. As ever in the Commission, the policy evolved quickly from an eastern focused policy to one which also reached out to the southern Mediterranean partners. At the heart of that political compromise the Commission has seen some delay in bringing forward the policy in the past six to nine months. We are now at a stage where the Council has asked High Representative Javier Solana and Commissioner Verheugen, who have responsibility for the policy, to bring forward action plans, which would implement the policy with partner countries. With regard to the partner countries, the Irish Presidency's priority is to see Ukraine and Moldova included in the first package of action plans and for the action plans to be adopted in our Presidency.

Action plans are new instruments of EU policy. They involve progressivity, conditionality and partnership. The idea is that they would be agreed political documents with clear benchmarks which the partner countries, for example the Ukraine, and the Union would identify for improved performance in the areas of, for example, market or political reform. Incentives would flow from the completion of or arrival at those benchmarks.

These new instruments are currently being negotiated. There have been consultations with partner countries and there are ongoing consultations in the Council bodies on precisely what should be contained in the action plans. Like all policy evolution, it has been an awkward process. However, from the Presidency point of view, we are pleased with the support we are getting from the Commission and the Council. We hope to be in a position to have this particular strategy on the table and agreed by the end of our Presidency, with action plans for Ukraine and Moldova also agreed.

Our next speaker is no stranger to many here. Mr. Alan Dukes currently holds the position of Director General of the Institute of European Affairs, a key policy formulating body here. He has had a distinguished parliamentary career, served as a Minister for Finance and Agriculture and was also leader of the Fine Gael party. He has worked as a member of a cabinet in Brussels and as a representative of the farming organisations there. He has contributed widely to discussion on European issues in Ireland. He has been chairman of the European Movement and in that capacity he holds the position of vice-president of the International European Movement. He has a broad level of experience and a wide perspective on European matters.

Mr. Alan Dukes

I wish to thank the Chairman, Deputy Woods, for inviting me to participate in this session. It is a pleasure to be here. I had the honour of presiding at a corresponding session in July 1996 and it is always a pleasure to return to Dublin Castle, having funded the reconstruction of the castle and the provision of its conference centre some years earlier as Minister for Finance.

I have been asked to speak about EU policies towards its neighbours after enlargement. My first question is, which neighbours? I thought first of the catechism I learned at school where one of the first questions was: "Who is my neighbour?" and the answer was: "My neighbour is all mankind."

I will narrow the scope of my remarks by categorising the neighbours. First we have Bulgaria and Romania, which we hope will join the Union in 2007. Then we have Turkey for which we hope a date will be set for the opening of negotiations towards the end of this year. We then have the countries of the western Balkans. Last week I had the pleasure of meeting the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of Croatia, who were here to hand in their formal application for membership. We also have the Russian Federation and the Confederation of Independent States, CIS. The United States of America is also a neighbour. A group we sometimes overlook includes Norway, Switzerland and Iceland, the three western European countries which are not yet members of the EU. We also have the Middle East, North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa and China.

In the timeframe allotted to me I have no prospect of saying anything sensible about all of these and have therefore decided to be selective. By a process of arbitrary elimination I propose to exclude Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey. This is not because I think they are unimportant but because the framework of our relations with these countries is well established.

The European Union's relations with Norway, Switzerland and Iceland do not seem to pose any particular difficulties. Indeed, a Swiss friend has advised me that we should give up the idea of inviting Switzerland to join the Union, given the extreme difficulty of securing agreement on any national level referendum in that country. Perhaps the Swiss need time to get accustomed to being members of the UN before they venture into the more intimate embrace of the European Union.

Africa and the Middle East are vast subjects which I intend to pass over. Relations with China will demand more and more attention as that immense country's recently installed Government develops its new approach to the range of issues facing it at home and abroad. I missed the conversation last evening but I understand it was informative.

By this rather arbitrary process of elimination, I have decided to limit my remarks to three groups of countries, the western Balkans, Russia and the CIS, and the United States of America. The choice is perhaps less arbitrary than it appears at first sight since EU-US relations are of central importance to relations with the other two groups. They are all intimately bound together by considerations of European security and defence policy, ESDP. In addition, the EU member states and the United States have a long history of co-operation and common endeavour in relation to the western Balkans. The current rupture in relations between the European Union and the United States could have negative consequences for the achievement of shared objectives in that region and for relations with the Russian Federation and the CIS.

The EU already deploys a range of instruments in the western Balkans region. There is no need to detail these arrangements. The central point to make about the region is that it is realistic to base our action on the premise that these countries can, and in the right conditions will, become members of a further-enlarged European Union. This premise is realistic in the sense that it could come about in the lifetime of the current political generation. The difficulties of this enterprise should not be underestimated, but the changes required to bring it about are probably of about the same order of political magnitude as the changes that happened in Central and Eastern Europe during the decades of the 1980s and 1990s.

In addition, the premise of eventual EU membership gives us a framework and terms of reference with which we are familiar. It gives the countries of the region a prospect that is achievable within a timespan which can be comprehended by political systems subject to the stresses of democratic electoral processes. We need to recall from time to time that the political instincts which we followed in the cases of Greece, Spain and Portugal proved to be sound. In addition, economic fears voiced in advance of each of those enlargements were surmounted. I believe we will have a similar experience, although on a bigger scale, with this year's enlargement and in our further relations with the countries of the western Balkans.

There are some things we should learn from this year's enlargement. My belief is that the whole pre-accession process has been unnecessarily cumbersome and much too bureaucratic. If an example is needed, we have only to look at the SAPARD system in the accession states. I have been personally involved with it in a number of countries and I often feel ashamed that we have imposed such a numbingly complex system on a group of states. This system, process, incubus or whatever is the appropriate term for it, will have to be revisited in light of the most recent changes in the Common Agricultural Policy.

I do not know if anybody has made a systematic evaluation to determine how much of the acquis communautaire, so meticulously adopted by the accession states, is now quite simply irrelevant or redundant. I suspect that rather a lot of it could be so described.

Both the PHARE and the TACIS programmes are in urgent need of radical simplification and stabilisation. In neither programme is there any systematic attempt to apply the cumulative accession of knowledge and skills to new work, or to avoid the repetition of past mistakes. There is little evidence of any systematic political evaluation of the performance of the partners by the EU authorities. We must learn these lessons and apply them to our action in the western Balkans.

We should re-think the basis of our approach to our future relations with the Russian Federation and the CIS. Specifically, we should stop speculating on the possible future accession of any of these countries to EU membership. The prospect is so remote as to be irrelevant to the actions of the current political generation. Not only that, but the very idea is repugnant to the current and prospective leaderships of most, if not all, of these countries. I am not alone in finding it utterly implausible even to imagine that President Putin might present an application for membership to the EU Presidency. I do not think it is any lack of imagination on my part that prevents me from envisaging that any successor of his, after the kind of progressive, reforming and successful presidency we all wish for him, might wish to take such a step.

I am fully aware that there are serious and well-motivated civil society and other groups in Russia, the Ukraine and Belarus which see future membership of the EU as a prospect justifying and preparing the way for the kinds of change they would like to bring about in the governance of their respective countries. I believe, however, that this constitutes a diversion of valuable political energy from the more immediate exigencies of their situations. We should not encourage this any further.

In the time available to me, I can deal with only a small element of our relations with the US. I will concentrate my remarks on one aspect of the issue of multilateralism. Multilateralism has taken quite a beating since the US and the UK decided to invade Iraq. It is as if we have decided that common values and purpose no longer have much operational application. The problem is not one-sided. Even the definition of multilateralism seems to have come under question. It appears that, in the State Department in Washington DC, multilateralism means, "To be reasonable, do it my way". In the White House, it appears to mean " If you are not with me, you are against me". In Brussels, it appears to mean that we have not yet made up our minds. We need to clarify what we mean by multilateralism. We must redefine it before we can realistically engage and re-establish it as the centre of our action. We cannot make decisions for the US. We should, however, ensure we can make them for ourselves. We should recognise that multilateralism forms the rules of this game. The restoration of multilateralism must, therefore, be a priority for our action. In that way we can increase our chances of having some influence on the United States.

It is time for us to make clear, well-informed, operational and implementable decisions in the areas of a Common Foreign and Security Policy and a European Security and Defence Policy. Unless and until we do that we will not be able to have the kind of influence we hope to have over our neighbours in future years.

I thank Mr. Dukes. Our third speaker is Professor Brigid Laffan, Jean Monnet Professor of European Politics at University College Dublin, one of the leading Irish universities. She is also research director of the Dublin European Institute at University College Dublin. She has been a leading contributor to the European debate here. She has also contributed to research on a wide range of matters pertaining to the European Union. It is my pleasure to invite her to address us.

Professor Brigid Laffan

I thank the Acting Chairman. I also thank the Chairman, Deputy Woods, for the invitation to engage with the committee. It is not often that academics get the opportunity to engage and debate with people who, ultimately, have the responsibility to take the decisions. There is a luxury in academic life that one can think about the world without necessarily being responsible for much of what goes on.

I wish to do three things. First, I wish to look at the features of the EU as an international actor, because the discussion of its neighbourhood policy must take place in the context of both the possibilities for action but also the limits. Second, I will make some remarks on the neighbourhood policy itself and there is one key point I wish to make.

There are three important features of the EU as an international actor. The first has been the very lengthy search for acceptable institutions, rules and decision procedures. Since EPC in 1970, the EU has struggled to get agreement among member states to provide the EU with the institutions, processes and decision rules that would enable it to be an effective international actor. We know that process continues. I hope that under the Irish Presidency there will be an agreement on the constitution which should at least provide some level of equilibrium in terms of the institutional and decisional framework for the international action of the EU. Divided responsibilities, institutional uncertainty and some institutional rivalry undermines the capacity of the EU.

The second feature of the EU as an international actor is its struggle to achieve coherence in the use of policy instruments. Its instruments are located in pillar 1 in the original treaty in terms of aid and trade and in pillar 2 in terms of the Common Foreign and Security Policy and, more recently, the strengthening of the defence element of that and, finally, in terms of pillar 3.

The EU has evolved an impressive array of policy instruments. It has carrots and sticks but it has not necessarily always been able to bring all of those instruments together to be effective in the international system.

The third feature of the EU as an international actor is what I call its normative character, namely how the EU projects an identity in the international system and how it explains itself to itself as an international actor. In a sense, multilateralism is at its core. As the EU is the world's most successful experiment in multilateralism in the international system, it projects multilateralism as being a very important public good for the international system. Deep at the heart of this normative frame is the commitment to negotiated outcome and peaceful resolution of conflict. The EU remains predominantly, although no longer exclusively, a civilian actor in the international system. That multilateralism infuses what the EU tries to do in the international system. Given the dynamism the EU has shown over the last 30 years, including the possibilities and the limits of its action, there remains a deep tension in the EU between the desire of member states to act collectively because they see the benefits. They know the world requires them. They face collective challenges and they need to act together. All member states want to retain some autonomy. They want their different geography, history and different patterns of economic engagement. This means they want to project onto the EU domestic foreign policy, and they all want some autonomy. There is a deep tension running through the international capacity of the EU.

As Alan Dukes said, there are different relationships with and different perceptions of the United States, now the world's most dominant international actor. There are also powerful pressures on the EU to strengthen its external capacity. First, because of enlargement, the EU truly becomes a continental force and a continental power, with enormous capacity to export ideas, markets, regulatory frameworks, rules and power. It is a magnate in the international system, particularly for its neighbourhood. Given that it has extraordinary power, particularly in continental terms, how will it use that power? Since the events of 11 September and, more recently, since March of this year, we know the security challenges facing Europe are no longer external, that new terrorism blurs the distinction between internal and external security. It is somewhat poignant that the Commission's communication on the neighbourhood policy dates from 11 March 2003. There are both internal and external stimuli putting pressure on the EU in terms of its neighbourhood policy.

Moving to the neighbourhood policy itself, concepts like the wider Europe, the greater Middle East, the wider neighbourhood, the voisinage runs through the EU's foreign policy discourse. These concepts are referred to time and again by commissioners, high representatives and national foreign ministers. There is no doubt the ability of the EU to influence and shape its neighbourhood will be the test of its capacity in the international system over the next ten years. Europe is surrounded by states, some failed, some failing and some struggling to modernise. An arc of instability surrounds Europe, therefore, the challenge for it is to help these states overcome instability and link them into a more stable international and continental system.

Is there a tension in the EU neighbourhood policy? Is there two policies, not one policy? In other words, is there an important distinction between those states Alan Dukes discussed, the CIS and Russia, and the states on the southern shores of the Mediterranean? Does the EU have to prioritise between these groups of states? Does it have the instruments, financial resources and capacity to deal with both and in what order? Is the distinction sufficiently sharp in thinking about the EU neighbourhood policy at this stage or is it trying to be all things to all neighbours?

The wider Europe consists of those countries that are members of the Council of Europe. The Council of Europe has been an extremely important post-communist organisation for the Continent as a whole in that it has helped in post-communism transition. It has helped in terms of establishing the benchmark for the rule of law for the protection of human rights and democratisation. Some of these states aspire to EU membership. Is this credible, as Alan Dukes asked? We know that conditionality works for the EU, but it works most strongly when one offers membership. It is much weaker once membership is not a credible option. Should one think not in terms of membership in the next ten to 20 years? However, if one says never to membership, is one undermining the capacity of conditionality, which is important? There is the question of what Europe means by conditionality. Over the last ten to 15 years, the EU has increasingly inserted conditionality clauses into Lomé and a number of its aid and trade policies. However, it rarely invokes them or follows through on conditionality. If there is to be real conditionality and real benchmarks for improvement, the EU must have a sanctions ladder which it must be open to using. If political commitments are not adhered to, conditionality remains symbolic and the EU's potential power will not be realised.

Turning to the Mediterranean, the EU has invested much energy in the Barcelona process since 1989, moulded in the concept of partnership. The Union's ability to influence events on the southern shores of the Mediterranean is much weaker than its ability to influence the neighbouring states to the east. All of these countries on the southern shores of the Mediterranean, where membership is an unlikely prospect, are very diverse and attempting, with great difficulty, to find a route to modernisation and economic well-being. The yearly reports of the UNDP on these states does not make for optimistic reading. The question is how Europe can help establish more stable and prosperous states on the southern shores of the Mediterranean when it is not the main foreign policy actor in that part of the world. There is no doubt it has the potential to be the main foreign policy actor, particularly in regard to the CIS states, though not necessarily Russia, but it is unlikely to be the predominant actor on the southern shores of the Mediterranean. We know from events in Madrid that a stable North Africa is extremely important to this part of the world.

I will conclude with some key points. The EU is beginning slowly and with difficulty to put in place the elements of an enhanced European neighbourhood policy, with its security strategy document and the Commission proposals. The constitution will further streamline roles and institutional responsibilities. The policy instruments relate to economic, political, human rights and security issues. All three are important and no one should be privileged over the other. The challenge for the EU is to translate these strategies, objectives and rhetoric into policy output and influence. The EU always faces the challenge of delivering programmes and policies in an effective manner. Alan Dukes already spoke about SAPARD. There is always a danger in the EU of red tape, bureaucratic procedure and tortuous process, particularly for states with weak administrative capacity. Asking them to endure negotiating with the EU, which is highly bureaucratised, can be a real challenge. There is a fundamental challenge for Europe of translating the promise of multilateralism into real change. There is a danger that if Europeans reify multilateralism without investing in its capacity to work, then they give comfort to the sceptics.

We must recognise the problems of multilateralism and not just its promise. Therefore, the new neighbourhood policy should be ambitious but realistic, goal driven and continually monitored. Conditionality must not remain symbolic but be given real teeth. If the EU is to fulfil its promise, it must begin to engage in some tough love, at which it is not good.

Thank you, Professor Laffan. It is now over to the delegates. There is a list of 12 speakers so far. This morning the Chairman indicated we should try to limit the speaking time to approximately three minutes. I have also been asked to allow contributors to sum up at approximately 12.15 p.m. It will be difficult to keep within that timeframe but I will do my best. The first speaker is Mr. Gustavo Selva from Italy. Perhaps Mr. Zsolt Nemeth from Hungary will be ready once Mr. Selva has concluded.

Mr. Gustavo Selva

I thank Mr. Woods for the excellent organisation of the proceedings. I thank in particular the three speakers who have enlightened us on the importance of setting the EU neighbourhood policy following enlargement.

Owing to the lack of time, I can only set out a number of positions without really explaining them. We must avoid politico-economic conflict between the European Union and the United States above all else, even after enlargement, and we must ensure that the states that will join on 1 May and those that join later have democratic governments founded on pluralism in politics and on a market economy.

There is a list of members who are geographically and politically close to us. The three previous speakers have already mentioned the interlocutors of the neighbourhood policy of the Union are primarily Russia, the new independent states, Ukraine, Moldova and Belarus, and the countries of the non-European Mediterranean. We must develop a European perspective on the Balkans and adopt a targeted approach to them.

I am also thinking of Romania and Bulgaria, where happily we already have a date for accession, and Croatia, a country that already meets all the conditions to join the European Union. We must be vigilant about the delicate political situation in the Balkans, however, because there are still uncertainties in about the definitive status of Kosovo. The groups seeking independence are dominant there and recently there has been a worrying resumption of armed conflict between Serbs and Kosovars.

The situation in Serbia is extremely fragile as well. The recent elections confirmed the substantial strength of the nationalist groups. European involvement and engagement in this region must remain intensive and determined. Even a signal of disengagement would entail serious risks, such as the intensification of organised crime and the arrival of Islamic terrorist cells.

Turkey deserves separate comment. The accession process has an obvious strategic value and represents an effective response to the logic of terrorism, which wants to cause radical opposition between Islam and the west and exclude any possibility of dialogue, which is what we want to pursue. This is logical and we should provide parliamentary assistance because the European Union has saved us and given us the ability to assist in developing in a democratic and economic way the countries close to us in the Mediterranean, the Balkans and eastern Europe. We can all then make a contribution to the strengthening and development of their economies when they become full members of a community the objective of which is the well-being of its people in liberty and democracy.

I thank Mr. Selva. We will now hear from Mr. Zsolt Nemeth from Hungary and then Mr. Ghioghi Prisacaru from Romania.

Mr. Zsolt Nemeth

Friends and colleagues, I greet everyone whom I could not meet yesterday evening. I am glad that this meeting is taking place and I hope we can have a lively dialogue. I thank the lecturers and would just say to the last lecturer that it is normal for us to meet academics because the success of politicians largely depends on close co-operation with our friends in academic life.

I thank the Irish Presidency. I was in Glendalough yesterday, a place where the Christianity of the Irish people was born. The Irish were missionaries of Christianity from as early as the fifth century and now our Irish friends are demonstrating that they are the missionaries of the European ideal as much as they were during the early Middle Ages.

I greet our new NATO member colleagues who today, on 29 March, join the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and I wish to give them a round of applause. I did expect my Irish friends to initiate such applause but sooner or later anything can happen.

The enlargement of the European Union is an historic event. In Hungary we say that 1 May will be the end of the Second World War for us. This is the historical dimension of the reunification of Europe. The target and the purpose of the European Union is not just enlargement but the ever deepening unification of the Continent while retaining its diversity and plurality.

Our neighbourhood policy will mainly depend on the ability of the Continent to maintain the dynamism of the unification process. This is the most important prerequisite for success and we do not know if this unification process will be as dynamic after enlargement. We do not know what influence the constitutionalisation process will have in this respect. We hope the June summit will be successful. We do not know what will be the financial perspective on this question. We hope equality between the new and old member states will be established in the budget and that a type of two-speed Europe will not develop. If we have a two-speed Europe we can forget about a credible neighbourhood policy and about the long-term ambitions of the European Union to extend its borders to the whole of the Continent.

I agree totally with the categorisation of the important questions raised by Alan Dukes. The most important question for our neighbourhood policy is definitely the Balkans. I agree with him 100% on that. In this respect, the most important question today is Croatia. We should send a clear message to the Balkans regarding the involvement of Croatia in the enlargement process as soon as possible. It is a good message that it has applied to the European Union and I hope it will be able to satisfy the preconditions of early membership of it.

I wish to refer to the Atlantic question. If we want to demonstrate our transatlantic commitment, there is a good possibility of doing so in terms of anti-terrorism. There is no other need to demonstrate how we like the Americans. That is the field where we can demonstrate our ability to co-operate and anti-terrorism is clearly of prime importance.

With regard to Russia and the CIS, I ask Mr. Dukes and colleagues three questions. Strong statements were made in respect of Russia and the CIS. Why has Turkey been considered but not the Ukraine, Moldova and Belarus? Is Russia and the other CIS countries like the Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova one category, or should there be a further split, with the CIS countries and Russia being in another category? None of us sees a clear difference between the Mediterranean and the former CIS countries because the borders of Europe include the CIS countries. Until now, the Mediterranean was not considered part of our geographical knowledge of Europe. I thank members for their attention.

I ask those listed to speak to shorten their contribution a little to allow all remaining speakers to contribute before lunch. Our next speaker is Mr. Prisacaru from Romania and perhaps Mr. Hadjigeorgiou from Cyprus will be ready to speak after him.

Mr. Ghiorghi Prisacaru

(Via translator) Thank you, Chairman. I thank our Irish friends for the invitation to attend this conference. I also congratulate the ten European countries which in one month’s time will formally become members of the Union. That will be a truly historic event. We hope the target date of 2007 for the accession of Romania and Bulgaria to the Union will be met. My friend, Mr. Nemeth, talked about the dynamism for the reunification for Europe. We in Romania are prepared to make all the necessary efforts to satisfy the criteria for membership.

I listened with great interest to the presentation by the three speakers on the neighbourhood policy of the European Union and the move by the European Union towards a coherent political approach to its relations with its neighbours. I assure the committee that the European neighbourhood policy has particular importance for Romania because two countries, the Republic of Moldova and the Ukraine, are our direct neighbours and the expertise of Romania in its management of relationships with those countries can be drawn upon in the process of implementing such a policy. We can take part in the development and enrichment of the concept of the eastern dimension of the European Union.

We also support the Union's policy towards countries like Russia and its neighbours and the Russian ambassador talked yesterday about a strategic partnership with the European Union. We also consider the stability and prosperity of Europe cannot be achieved if we neglect the Black Sea region. Following the enlargement of the Union, the Black Sea will become a European sea and co-operation with the states around that sea will become more important.

Mr. Dukes and Professor Laffan raised several relevant questions concerning the European Union's neighbourhood policy. I confess that these questions were also of great concern to us and Europe needs to find proper responses to them.

Mr. Takis Hadjigeorgiou

Mr. President, first, I would like to express my gratitude to the Irish Parliament and the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs for organising and hosting this conference. I should also like to convey my chairman's warmest regards to the committee as he was not able to join its members. As the committee will know, he had to be in Switzerland for the talks under the auspices of the United Nations, taking place in Lucerne, which aim to reach a functional and viable solution to the protracted Cyprus problem to ensure that, hopefully, a united Cyprus joins the European Union on 1 May.

The question of neighbours after enlargement arises. For us, our first neighbour is Turkey. Turkey, Greece, the United Nations, the European Union and representatives of both communities of Cyprus are trying at this crucial and special time to solve the problem in Switzerland. I hope we will succeed. If we do and if Turkey then sets a date for negotiations, that will be a great step forward because most of all we need Turkey to be a democracy without the role of the army in its internal political affairs. We and the European Union need such a neighbour. We hope that in December Turkey will take its mandate. That will help it to come closer to what we call European values. Cyprus, Turkey and Greece can create a safer environment in the region and we must work for that.

Cyprus, which is situated in such a pivotal position in the Mediterranean, maintains very good and traditionally friendly relations with the Arab countries and Israel and can do much to help bring reason to bear in the hotbed that is the Middle East which unfortunately finds itself yet again at the gates of hell, as was rightly pointed out a few days ago. It is not an easy task to seek peace in that tormented area because the roots of turmoil run deep and firm in people's minds and hearts. Despite this, we as Cypriots will never lose hope and are willing to help so that goodwill and dialogue prevail. However, first and foremost, we must ensure the European Union will sooner rather than later have a common foreign, security and defence policy so the ideas expressed in all its fora and also internationally, especially in the United Nations, have credibility in the eyes of the world.

I thank speakers for their co-operation. I call Mr. Ahlin, followed by Professor Alexandrov from Bulgaria.

Mr. Urban Ahlin

Thank you, Chairman, for the interesting lectures.

I wish to talk about the action plans which are a new instrument for the European Union. The Ukraine and Moldova were mentioned in this regard but I am curious to know why Belarus is not included. Why can we not realise that the European Union can have action plans for all these countries in which we can have conditionalities - the sticks and carrots to which Professor Laffan referred? I cannot accept that there is a bureaucratic issue since hundreds of civil servants have been working on enlargement and, after 1 May, it would be wonderful to use them to promote those types of ideas with our new neighbours. I cannot see why the Irish Presidency cannot push forward action plans in all directions with all countries.

I am sorry to say that I do not agree with anything Mr. Dukes said. My Hungarian colleague talked about countries like Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova. Should we tell them they will not become members of the European Union? As the Professor said, for these countries to have a perspective towards becoming a member of the EU is the most important carrot they have in respect of making reforms. That should not be taken away by closing the door. I am not saying they do not have a chance of being members in five years' time but it is dangerous to close the door. We should have an open door policy towards such countries because it is their way forward.

As my Hungarian colleague asked, why should Turkey be considered and not Belarus? It would be easier to bring Belarus into the EU than many of the other countries we are talking about if it had another political leadership. I am afraid of creating a Rio Grande on the eastern border of the European Union. If we listen too much to the Russian Federation or the CIS and the different economic unions putting up barriers, if we tell these countries not to look to the EU because the door is closed and tell them to try to sort out a regional arrangement, that is the way for poverty in the region. The only way forward for these countries is to integrate more into the EU. It is dangerous to close the door.

I do not agree that multilateralism is the rule of the law or the rules of the game. I agree with Professor Laffan when she said this is a working matter. We have decided in the EU to try to work in a multilateral way as much as possible. The rules of the game are something else - it is the UN Charter and conventions and so on. The attitude towards the US is not the dividing fault between EU member states. Rather, it is our attitude towards Russia. We applauded the countries that are today becoming members of NATO. If we or those new member countries had been listening to Russia during the discussions, they would not be members of NATO today. It is good for Russia to have secure members and prosperous neighbours and we should tell them so. We should not listen too much to statements about regaining Russia's pride and so on - we should be tough.

In regard to the Middle East, it is time for the EU to set up its own ideas about how to work together with the US in promoting democracy in the region. It is important that the Irish Presidency is doing its best for the EU-US summit this summer.

Professor Venko Alexandrov

The Irish Presidency of the European Union has been faced with numerous challenges but has faced them with great resoluteness. This time sees an important enlargement of the EU. In just one month, on 1 May 2004, ten new states will cross the threshold of our common door into Europe. My country Bulgaria, like Romania, hopes the door will remain open and that, thanks to our commitments and collective efforts, we will be crossing that threshold in 2007.

Bulgaria is particularly happy with the decision of the European Council of December last in Brussels which stated clearly the timetable for our accession to the European Union. We received a clear commitment for the closing of negotiations of the aquis communautaire in 2004 with a view to the signature of the treaty of accession as early as possible in 2005 and actual accession in 2007.

The closing of the chapters remaining to be negotiated with the expiration of the mandate of the current European Commission is a strategic objective of Bulgaria to which we have subordinated our legislative activity in the National Assembly. After the adoption last year of the amendments regarding judicial powers, our legislative programme is now focused on the installation of an effective judicial system, a greater role for small and medium sized enterprises, the creation of the right conditions for investment and the reintegration of disabled persons into society.

Chapter 27 has already been closed and we are counting greatly on the active support of the Irish Presidency. We hope negotiations on the finance, budget, regional policy and agriculture chapters will make good progress. With that in mind, we are giving special attention to the framework concerning Romania and Bulgaria which will bring us closer to those objectives. We greatly appreciate the fact that the negotiations will be conducted on the basis of the principles already applied to the ten accession countries and that Bulgaria will be evaluated on the basis of its own progress.

The prospect of accession to the EU by adopting European values makes us part of one big family to construct a stable and prosperous Europe. We should not forget that these goals are to be achieved and we would like to share the results and benefits with our neighbours in the western Balkans.

We have nine remaining speakers so I must ask that speakers keep their contributions short.

Mr. Jerzy Jaskiernia

I am chairman of the foreign affairs committee of the Polish Parliament and I thank our Irish hosts, particularly Dr. Michael Woods, for the great hospitality extended to us during our conference. The theme of today's discussion was selected carefully and wisely and because of the time limits, I wish to make just three points.

We agree that there should be no Rio Grande after the expansion of the EU on 1 May. We should avoid a situation in which a new European fortress would be built. We take a positive approach. For example, Ukraine is our strategic partner. The security and democratic development of Ukraine is of crucial importance to European security and we should keep that.

We have a very important relationship with Russia. We would like to have agreement on partnership and co-operation with that country and to avoid a situation where the extension of the EU is against Russia's interest. We wish to see the opposite, which is the new conception of that relationship. This is also recognised by Russia, as the Russian Ambassador said to us yesterday.

Of course, there are difficult cases. Belarus has been mentioned. We should do something more in this area. Every year when we meet we stress the problem of Belarus but progress is not being made. I have said the same at the Council of Europe. It is important to stress the importance of the Council of Europe because it is forgotten about from time to time. That organisation is a very important instrument. For a long time we could not co-operate with Belarus because of that country's regime. There is not sufficient progress. We should take radical steps to change this. There should be stronger co-operation with civic organisations or opposition parties. If we close the door to Belarus we will not achieve progress. We should not exclude Belarus from developments. The European Union must be more wise in this and not always take a conservative approach. Of course, we would like to change the government and to make the establishment of a democratic government and parliament a precondition, but we should help that process. A conservative approach cannot achieve that.

We must base our development on conditionality. However, we should be precise and offer some relevant assistance programmes. Some of our friends in the countries which have not qualified for European Union membership stress that we should not only tell them about conditionality but support, in the very real terms, their democratic institutions and help them to build a democratic society. Several standards are already in place but we must support an independent judicial system, freedom of the media and the development of democratic institutions.

We should not tell them we are closing the doors. Of course, there will be a limit on the extension of the European Union but we should not tell them they are out of the game. Everyone should have a chance. I was rapporteur for Croatia at the Council of Europe and I saw the progress made in that country. We should have the same perspective on Moldova and other countries. We should tell them that if they achieve progress in their economies, human rights and democracy and reach the required level they will have a chance, even after ten years or longer. Such a perspective should exist because the eastern dimension is starting to be a very important challenge for the EU. The EU should not end the game on 1 May 2004.

Ms Annemie Neyts-Uyttebroeck

I thank the Irish Presidency for organising this interesting meeting. I would like to tell those of you who do not know me, and that is probably the majority, that from 1999 until last summer I was deputy foreign minister in my country in charge of European affairs. In that capacity I visited your capitals, sometimes several times a year, and I am familiar with the issue of enlargement and neighbourliness.

Contrary to my Swedish colleague, I agree with a number of things Mr. Alan Dukes has said. The accession negotiations have been cumbersome but they have been worthwhile. Unfortunately, the public in most of our countries do not know these negotiations have been going on for ten years. Many people believe that 1 May represents a jump into the unknown and not the crowning achievement of a process that has been going on for ten years. That is a pity and it is something we should keep in mind.

What we have learned from many of the interventions is that if the European Union wants to live up to its ambition to be one of the key players on the world stage - I believe we are entitled to have that ambition - we can hardly afford to neglect any given portion of territory, whether neighbouring or at a distance. That immediately brings us to the question we should not avoid. Do we, as parliamentary foreign affairs committees, really want to give our governments and the European Union the means and the instrument of this ambition? Do we really believe we can do all of this with hardly 1% of our collective GDP? We must give an honest answer to these questions. In my view the answer is probably no, we should devote more of our means to this ambition. Here we have a role to play. We are going right into the wall if we go on sketching these huge ambitions but are unwilling to devote more than 1% of our collective GDP to this. How do we believe we remain credible in the medium term future?

Mr. Boris Janez Bregant

I wish to mention our criteria. We are here on an island, where it is very clear what neighbourhood, direct neighbourhood and next neighbourhood mean. We need to define neighbourhood whenever we discuss it. I would like to introduce the terms, "temporary neighbourhood" and "temporary neighbour". These terms may sound optimistic for those who may develop themselves and put themselves into a higher category to become members as soon as it might be possible. I use the fact that we are on an island to illustrate the fact that new member countries are already divided into two groups. Two countries are islands and the others are on the continent. Those who come from the islands have a free movement of labour and those who are on the continent have not. We have difficulties with our categories. When we talk about categories we must be frank.

Mr. Dukes, somehow, ignored the fact that there are two applications for membership of the European Union. He mentioned Croatia but ignored Macedonia. Macedonia has presented its application for membership. I take advantage of the fact that our Greek colleagues are not here to refer to that country as the Republic of Macedonia. If the Greeks were here I would be forced to use another name, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Due to the fact that we are becoming members we have been instructed to apply a new name to this country. Something has changed due to the fact that the EU is enlarged. Can you imagine me introducing my dear friend, Mr. Mihkelson, from Estonia as the representative of the Former Soviet Union Republic of Estonia. Our colleagues from Latvia or Lithuania would be in the same position. My dear friend from Slovakia would be presented as the representative of the Former Czechoslovak Republic of Slovakia. This is a policy of the European Union. We must re-assess what we are performing here as members of the European Union.

With regard to Turkey, our colleague from Cyprus has already referred to the negotiations, which are ongoing. This is the biggest challenge and may be the greatest achievement of the European Union. After more than 30 years we face a great success. The consequence of Cyprus, as a whole island, joining the EU would be that we would have to introduce another official European Union language. Turkish would have to be an official EU language, due to the substantial number of Turks who would come, with Cyprus, into the Union. This would speed up the process of negotiation and the Europeanisation of Turkey, which is a Balkan country. We must underline that.

Mr. Anderson is next to speak. There are five remaining speakers and I am anxious to give them some time. I am also anxious to give the three speakers time to sum up. I ask everyone to be as concise as possible. Mr. Anderson will be followed by Mr. Mihkelson from Estonia.

Mr. Donald Anderson

I shall avoid the universal, almost biblical, definition of Mr. Alan Dukes. We take a more legal definition of neighbour as those whose actions impact directly on us. Some, therefore, impact more directly on us. I am tempted to look at the eastern and southern borders and the movements there, particularly in Libya which, in my judgment, we should be ready to reward for its progress.

The key priority in terms of immediacy is the western Balkans. It is the missing piece of the European jigsaw. If one looks at the map, it is vital for our interests for good or ill. If we do not go to them, they will come to us in terms of all the problems of instability, immigration, people smuggling, drugs, terrorism and organised crime. They are manageable in that they are all relatively small countries and, therefore, the EU can impact positively on them. We can give them a magnet of attraction for membership. We can, as we did with the Iberian countries and Greece, invest in democracy. There is already key movement in that area on the military side in terms of the small development in Macedonia and now the much more important development of the EU in Bosnia. However, there are real problems. As Javier Solana pointed out over the weekend, Kosovo is not unfinished business. The question of the ultimate status of Kosovo cannot be avoided for long. We need greater attention there.

We must look carefully at the case for differentiation. The recent elections in Serbia raised many questions about their readiness. Macedonia is important, but in terms of differentiation it must come after Croatia. A number of colleagues stressed the importance of the recent developments in Croatia. Now that the post-Tudjman successes have shown how modernised and European they are and how ready they are to co-operate with the ICTY and others, it is important that Croatia is given a clear green light. Our interests in the western Balkans are immediate and involved. As Europeans, we can have a positive impact in that area.

Mr. Mihkelson from Estonia will be followed by Mr. Van Gennip from the Netherlands.

Mr. Marko Mihkelson

I will be brief. We should understand the process of shaping the policy of CFSP and neighbourhood policies. It is valuable that discussions, such as we are having today, are having an input into the policy-making process. The European Union will have enormous challenges in the next five to ten years because the neighbourhood stretches from the east, south and west. It is extremely important that we have well balanced and prioritised neighbourhood policies. Mr. Dukes made an excellent presentation. I do not agree with Ahlin. Mr. Dukes mentioned our eastern neighbours, the Ukraine, Moldova and others. It is important to stress that we cannot close the door, particularly if we analyse the current trends and situation in Russia. We should stop speculating about the possibility of the accession of the Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus or the republics of the southern Caucuses. A message should be given to the forces in those countries and, more importantly, in Russia that this area has been left out of European interest.

Mr. Van Gennip from the Netherlands will be followed by Mr. Alexsandrs Kirsteins from Latvia.

Mr. Van Gennip

I thank the Presidency for putting on the agenda the external identity and strength of Europe. The issue of the external identity was overlooked during the process of the acquis communautaire. Africa was brought to our attention. What should be done after enlargement should be put on the agenda immediately.

Mr. Dukes spoke about the restoration of multilateralism as an urgent point. I am struck by a paradoxical experience of the past ten years. There seems to be a dividing line within the European Union between the strong proponents - sometimes they call themselves the like minded group - of the multilateral system. On the one hand, there are Governments which pay only verbal tribute to that multilateralism and there is the category which utilises the multilateral system only in so far and so long as it serves their direct short-term national interest. It fits well to say they have not made up their minds.

The curious reaction of the multilateralists in the European Union is that most of the time they do not invest in converting and influencing, let alone compromising, the EU's stand, but in bypassing it and setting up direct relations with the multilateral and Bretton Woods systems. That is frustrating because it leads to a lack of consultation, co-ordination and policy recommendations in the area of nominations and other areas. The effective strength of the European Union as the biggest donor, for example, in the multilateral system is undermined by these dividing lines, particularly by the direct bypassing of Brussels.

We now have a new opportunity. Even the strongest hardliners and unilateralists of Washington have expressed the need to combine the hard power of the US with the soft power of the EU and the multilateral system. New alliances inside Europe should be formed in favour of the multilateral system. The purists should be aware that by bypassing and not investing in compromises, they will undermine the position of the multilateral system.

I underscore the necessity of absolute reform. It is absolutely urgent in terms of bureaucracy. There is direct controversy between the demands of a civil society with all its flexibility and the rigidity of the culture of control, as we have developed in the European bureaucratic system. It is not applicable only to that system, but also to the development system.

As regards 1 May and the intervention of our Hungarian colleagues, I am concerned about the lack of or the limited attention to the specific history of the new members in central and eastern Europe. It is a history partly of persecution, deportation, oppression and the violation of human rights and, on the other hand, resistance. Too many of us have been inclined to do business as usual as soon as possible. However, truth and reconciliation are not only the monopoly of South Africa or Chile. We should remember each year the terrible things which have happened to an important part of Europe and the ultimate victory of values and human spirit. Only in this way can an equilibrium be created between extension and accession. Enlargement is about more than just extension.

Mr. Kirsteins from Latvia will be followed by Ms Liisa Jaakonsaari from Finland who will, in turn, be followed by Mr. Mehmet Dulger from Turkey.

Mr. Aleksandrs Kirsteins

With regard to Belarus, we need to involve the EU process. Russification in this country is fully completed under the regime of Lukashenko. In the next years we must create a stability zone with Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia. Why Georgia? That is the region which the CIS sees as a black hole of drug trafficking, prostitution, smuggling of weapons of mass destruction and so forth. Each country will need a different attitude and a different type of assistance.

Ukraine is a big and rich country and will need assistance for involvement in the European Union common market. I do not know about Belarus. We can speak with Belarus through President Putin and, perhaps, Lukashenko. Moldova has a political crisis and there are Russian troops in the so-called Transnistrian republic. There is poverty and the communists are in power. The European Union cannot help to implement structural reforms in Moldova before solving the question of the integrity of the territory.

Georgia has Russian troops too and these troops support separatists in Abkhazia, Ajaria and South Ossetia. The main issue for negotiations between the European Union and Russia must be Russian troops in these countries. Without dealing with and solving these problems we cannot create stability in our neighbourhood.

Ms Liisa Jaakonsaari

Congratulations on the Irish Presidency. It has been so efficient that a new constitutional treaty will be completed during the Presidency. I will continue to discuss Belarus. Many remarks have been made about Belarus and how the European Union should deal with this country. The European Union has to work towards an effective conditionality. One important factor in our failure so far is the fact that none of the six available carrots offered was strong enough to matter much to the regime. That is the main problem. The European Union should use its economic power more effectively and intensify the interaction with Belarus.

Professor Laffan mentioned two key words as far as the new neighbourhood policy is concerned. She said the programme should be ambitious and realistic. I agree. The third consideration is that it be as practical as possible. People in our countries are fed up with rhetoric and good speeches. They want this political will translated into real deeds. The Finnish foreign affairs committee asked our international policy institute to carry out research of the new neighbours because we are convinced that to look beyond the big plan is now the most important thing. To my surprise, the advice of all this research was really practical. For example, they said we had to promote a new political and legal culture. That is the most important task.

We have to foster new elites in the new neighbourhood countries. New elites in these countries are a precondition for successful democratic transformation. Otherwise, all changes may mean mere replacement of personalities in power and preservation of old structures. This will mean that we have to promote independent media, language training and improving opportunities for studies abroad. These are the most practical means. We have to encourage the European small and medium businesses to invest in these new countries. That would be one concrete example of how to create good jobs and prevent corruption. All of this helps to create a new ruling class in these new countries. This new neighbourhood is of major importance for politicians.

Mr. Mehmet Dulger

I give my best wishes and thanks to the Irish Presidency for having organised such an interesting meeting and the hospitality we have received since we came to this beautiful island.

It is time to express some views on the neighbourhood policy of the European Union following enlargement. In that regard, I wish to mention an initiative in this area. The European Union should have a differentiated policy adopted according to the neighbour in question. The neighbour, Russia, is different from the Mediterranean and Balkan neighbours. The issue arises also with regard to the Caucasus and the Middle East. One must also look at the Atlantic, because there are obviously differences with regard to the United States.

Understanding of neighbours is most important and deficits have to be made up. Then there must be a policy to encourage internal dynamics to adopt the European values and criteria. I emphasise values rather than geography and spatial limits, which have influenced the debate so much this morning. There are also parliamentary relations, which are useful, academic relations and possibilities for co-operation in business, trade, travel, energy and agriculture. The policy should be one of coherence dominated by the need for justice in the negotiation of conflict resolutions and so forth. It is also important because it is necessary to have the right criteria. There should be a security policy with clear positions against terrorism and co-operation on that front. There should be a policy of economic development with a strong social component to reduce regional and social disparities.

I compliment the speakers on their co-operation. An interesting range of views have been expressed. I now ask the three speakers to respond and will impose the same disciplines on them of, perhaps, two minutes or so. They can speak in the order in which they spoke at the outset.

Ms Jones

It was extremely informative to listen to the wisdom expressed by the speakers from the many neighbours of the countries in my area of direct responsibility.

On the overarching point, as Presidency, of the finalité politik of the European Union, we insist on the idea that every European country can, under Article 49, apply for membership but membership is not something that is given out; it is a discipline. If countries and their political elites are prepared to commit to the rigours and the disciplines of the transition Mr. Dukes and Professor Laffan set out, the door is open to them. There is open-heartedness at the heart of the European neighbourhood policy. That said, in the current political climate in Brussels, this policy explicitly rules out membership and says the prospectus on offer provides for intensive co-operation within the neighbour framework.

The key role of Russia has been referred to. A couple of people mentioned the role in the frozen conflicts, in Georgia and the southern Caucasus. To be frank, the analysis in this room of a more aggressive Russia and a more negative Russian role makes it difficult for the European Union to engage with it in a constructive way in the neighbourhood. This is probably at the heart of the political challenge on the security side.

In regard to Belarus, on behalf of our Minister, we travelled on a joint démarche with the US Government to Minsk last week to insist that the Lukashenko regime stop the policy of self-isolation and engage with the European Union. We asked for a number of simple things, including the release of Professor Bandazhevsky, a moratorium on the death penalty and dialogue to begin on political reform. In the light of the comments made by the Swedish delegate, EU policy is evolving. The Polish delegate mentioned the important role of civil society. During our Presidency, we will to try to ensure that if additional finance is made available under this policy post-2006, it will be available to the people of Belarus, even though it will not be available to the Government currently in place.

The question was asked, "Why not the Ukraine?" It is open to it but Mr. Kuchma must have a free and fair election. I think that if that happens, European Union policy will reflect this.

On the issue of the Black Sea region mentioned by the Turkish delegate and the definitions we use mentioned by Professor Laffan, as Presidency, we believe the best definition for Europe is membership of the Council of Europe. We believe it was a mistake that the southern Caucasus states were left out of the policy framed by the Commission. The first thing we did when we came back from Georgia was to ask the Council to bring forward a proposal on the inclusion, or the relationship between, the southern Caucasus states and the European neighbourhood policy. We hope to have this in place by the end of our Presidency. Obviously, Turkey and Armenia have a closed border. This is an important issue which needs to be resolved. On Moldova, there is the conflict in Tansnistria.

Mr. Dukes

I say to our Slovenian colleague that I equally did not mention Moldova where the European Union and other countries must engage more strongly than they have up to now. To Mr. Nemeth I say, I had no difficulty in joining the applause for those member states joining NATO today. I am traditionally known as a heretic on these issues in Ireland. I frequently make the point to people in Ireland who claim the European Union is becoming a military conspiracy that our new member states are much more sensible than we are. They want two things: economic prosperity and physical security. For economic prosperity, they join the European Union and for physical security, they join NATO because they know there is nothing the European Union can do for them on that ground. I have no difficulty in joining in those congratulations. Despite the fact that I occasionally quote catechism, I am a well known heretic, as the Chairman, Dr. Woods, will confirm.

One of the most telling points of the whole discussion must have been the statement by Ms Neyts-Uyttebroeck that we cannot really be serious about all of this if we limit our budget in the way proposed. Six member states of the European Union, all of which are represented here, want to limit the budget of the European Union to 1% of GDP. We already have difficulties in undertaking what we now do with the possibility of going as far as 1.27% of GDP.

We have treated the new member states shamefully in regard to direct aid for agriculture. They should all be grateful to our Polish colleagues for having reduced the damage. Even if we abolish the Common Agricultural Policy, a figure of 1% of GDP would mean that a great many of the ambitions expressed around this table today would have to remain a dead letter, whether Mr. Ahlin wished it. There is no point in having an open door if there is nowhere to go when one goes through it. There is a role to be played by our parliaments as representing peoples who share the ambitions expressed today in making more realistic provision in the budget for the types of matters, which have received so much support today.

I would like to have a day to discuss this issue with Mr. Ahlin but Mr. Putin does not want to join the European Union, nor does President Lukaskenho who, in fact, wants to rejoin Mother Russia. Mr. Kuchma has not yet given a clear idea. I think we should take them at their word and proceed with our action in the rest of the neighbourhood and pursue it through to a successful conclusion, particularly in the western Balkans, and let others draw their own conclusions while we maintain the articles in our treaties which we have had from the beginning, that is, that the European Union is open for membership to any European state that subscribes to the values and principles of the treaties.

Let us be realistic about it. We would be doing a serious disservice to people in a number of the states about which we have talked if we spoke, in an operational way, of the prospect of EU membership. I have dealt in the European movement, as the Chairman of this session knows, with friends in the Ukraine, Russia and Belarus who see the issue in very much the same way as has been illustrated here. They want to be able to say EU membership is a prospect but they know, as we do, that if it is, it will not be realised in the next 20 years. Until this is finally realised, we run the risk of injecting a totally unreal element into the politics of those countries which will not help them in the short term to replace their systems and administrations with which they are not happy with ones with which they can be happy and which would allow them to be valid applicants to join the European Union.

Professor Laffan

The European Union's neighbourhood policy will be the test of its foreign policy capacity over the next ten to 15 years and much more significant than its policies in other parts of the world with the sole exception of Africa. There will be continuing pressures on the Union to enhance its capacity to act but I am reminded of one of the maxims of Richard Cooper, a former British diplomat, who said in a recent book on the breaking of nations that one of the maxims of international relations was that it was difficult to influence foreigners, in other words, there is no magic bullet for the European Union in the international system. However, it must use its instruments more wisely than it has in the past.

It is also important that the European Union recognises it does not just have soft power. It has this image of itself as being the soft, nice guy in the international system. It also has considerable hard power in terms of its trade and market access regimes. It should, therefore, use both hard and soft power. I accept, however, that it should be as practical as possible because policies that cannot be implemented are worse than having no policy at all.

I take the point about the budget because the trouble about the 1% budget is that most of it is still gobbled up by the Common Agricultural Policy and little of it goes on the international capacity of the Union. The EU's policy has to be differentiated and I will draw four distinctions - Russia, the former states of the CIS, the Balkans and the greater Middle East. Within the greater Middle East, the EU must also differentiate.

The key has to be to help the modernisers within the state elites of all these countries and those actors in civil society who want and can help to establish functioning market economies, stable democracies and the rule of law. That is the only way in which the arc of instability which now surrounds Europe can be overcome. It will be patchy. It will be unsettled and uncertain, but one of the things that can help is emulation. Success in one country will influence what happens in others. The EU has resources, but there is no magic bullet.

Thank you. I wish on behalf of us all to thank our speakers and, on my own behalf, to thank my colleagues for a very useful exchange of views. We have had some interesting insights this morning. Thank you all very much.

Sitting suspended at 12.55 p.m. and resumed at 2.15 p.m.
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