Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 12 Oct 2004

ODA Budget: Presentation.

I am pleased to welcome the newly appointed Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, with special responsibility for overseas development and human rights, Deputy Conor Lenihan, and I congratulate him on his appointment. I am sure other committee members join with me in those congratulations. The Minister of State is accompanied by the newly appointed director general of Development Co-operation Ireland, Mr. Ronan Murphy, and his staff; Frank Sheridan, Paddy Fay and Brendan Rogers.

The subject of today's discussion is the level of resources to be allocated in next year's Estimates for development assistance and the issue of progression towards the UN target of 0.7% of GNP. Ireland has for many years aspired towards achievement of the UN target and steady growth in our overseas development assistance, ODA, took place in the 1990s, from 0.16% of GNP in 1992 to 0.41% by 2002 where it has remained this year. The expected figure of €480 million would represent a trebling of total ODA over seven years. The figure is variously quoted at €475 million and €480 million. I notice that in a parliamentary question it was set down as €475 million, but we understood it was €480 million, so perhaps that will become clearer.

This unprecedented expansion meant that in percentage terms Ireland is ranked as the seventh largest donor country internationally, well above the EU average. Members will be aware that a specific timeframe for achieving the UN target was first set in September 2000 when the Government announced its decision to reach the target by the end of 2007. We are all familiar with the global economic downturn which has taken place over the past couple of years. The effects of that have been felt across all sectors of the economy. At a recent meeting of this committee, Dóchas, the umbrella body for development NGOs proposed that the Department of Foreign Affairs should reach agreement with the Department of Finance on a multi-annual funding arrangement on ODA allocations for 2005 to 2007, in order to reach the UN target by 2007.

The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs is unanimous in its support for this proposal. It has been Government policy since 2000 to reach the UN target by 2007, a commitment the Taoiseach reinforced at the launch of the UNDP 2003 human development report, when he again stated that "the Government is committed to further increasing ODA and achieving the UN target by 2007". I note also that the Government's programme published in August this year reiterated the 2007 target. The joint committee views the fulfilment of this commitment as critical to the strategic direction and positioning of Ireland's ODA programme. Clearly, rolling budgetary certainty is critical to the implementation of long-term development programmes. The joint committee therefore sees the return to multi-annual budgeting as a priority.

The committee has had the benefit of visiting some of the programme countries and seeing the reality and tremendous value of the work being done by Development Co-operation Ireland, which is not really appreciated here in Ireland. There is no question of that and it is important that the Government appreciates the work this agency is doing on its behalf and the highly professional, organised and controlled approach of DCI. We have met with teams of workers in each of the countries, including Zambia, Ethiopia and Uganda. We were in Ethiopia and Uganda just before the Oireachtas resumed and we were in Zambia earlier. There is no doubt that the professional approach of those workers on behalf of the Department of Foreign Affairs, together with their heads of mission and the ambassadors, is impressive. I say that without fear of contradiction from any quarter. I have seen management at work over many years and was involved in it at an earlier stage in my own career. The team work, participation and attention to accountability and good governance, which is clear in the work being done there, should give all of us, at committee and Government levels, every confidence in pursuing the target which has been set. I now ask the Minister of State to address the committee, following which the discussion will be opened to members.

I am accompanied by the director general, Mr. Ronan Murphy, who was recently our ambassador to Moscow and Vienna — he is still a diplomat — Mr. Frank Sheridan, who is the director of our programme countries, Mr. Brendan Rogers, who is the director of emergency and recovery, and Mr. Paddy Fay, who is the director of support services in the Department.

It is a great honour to appear before this committee. I was not a member of it prior to my elevation to Minister of State but, as members probably know, my late father was the first Chairman of this committee. There is a certain emotional resonance in being here today.

I am here as a Minister of State in his first week or so in office. If members will bear with me I will allow the officials to field some of their more detailed questions. It is a great pleasure to be here and very much my own decision. Parliamentary accountability should be the first job of any Minister of State and it is in that vein that I start off today.

I thank the Chairman, Deputies and Senators who have bothered to pay a visit to our programme countries. We have great difficulty, through the Whip system, in getting Members to travel to these destinations because they are not comfortable. I very much regret the depiction of one such recent visit to Zambia by five Deputies as a junket. I firmly reject that suggestion. Part and parcel of the work of Development Co-operation Ireland and the Department is to encourage politicians, the policy formers and people who are interested in the whole public debate on Third World issues, to go there directly. I will be visiting between three and four of our programme countries prior to Christmas. It is important, if we are to debate these issues, that we in Parliament should not be subject to unnecessary and unwanted criticism for going to very poor countries to see exactly how our taxpayers' money is being spent. I resent the implication behind recent newspaper stories about that particular visit to Zambia. It was far from being a junket. For obvious reasons, even sometimes on grounds of health, Members of the Oireachtas can be reluctant to travel to these countries because there are obvious risks.

I welcome this opportunity to appear before the committee on the subject of Ireland's official programme of development co-operation. There is a good story to tell and while strengthening, improving and increasing the programme remains the objective, the Oireachtas and the Irish people can be proud of what has been achieved in their name in some of the poorest countries in the world. I know the committee is interested in and concerned about Ireland's commitment to reaching the UN target of 0.7% of GNP. Ireland's development programme has grown rapidly in recent years. In 1993 aid expenditure amounted to approximately €70 million. This year the aid budget will total approximately €475 million, the highest it has ever been in the history of the State. It is well above the European Union average and Ireland is among the top ten largest donors in the world, based on aid as a proportion of GNP. The most recent figures put Ireland in seventh place. This is by any standards a major achievement. I should at this stage pay full tribute to my two predecessors in this particular portfolio, Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, and Deputy O'Donnell.

These increases have obviously presented challenges to ensure that the delivery of this assistance is carried out in the most effective and efficient way possible and in a manner which benefits some of the poorest people in the world. International independent evaluations by our peers in the OECD have concluded that Ireland's development programme is of the highest quality. The latest OECD review was carried out last year and it demonstrates that the taxpayer is getting value for money through the programme which the Department of Foreign Affairs is rolling out in the Third World. The findings of the review were clear. Ireland's programme of development co-operation distinguishes itself by its sharp focus on poverty reduction and its commitment to partnership principles. The success of the programme is located by the review in the historical context of the active engagement by many Irish people in development activities in poor countries. The report recommends, inter alia, further increases in the aid budget and the generation of greater understanding and public support for the programme and its achievements, the reason I referred to the visit by members, as parliamentarians.

The aim of our development programme is relatively simple — the reduction of poverty in the developing world. This overall objective is in line with achieving the millennium development goals which, as members are aware, have been set by the international community as a framework by which the commitment to reduce poverty in the world can be judged. In that regard, I should inform the committee that on Friday evening the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and I will hold in-depth discussions with Kofi Annan on how we can move closer to the goals. That will be the substance of our meeting with him on Friday.

The overall aim of the millennium development goals is to have global poverty halved by 2015. While we have ten years to go, it remains an enormous challenge. If we in Ireland are to make a difference to global poverty, we must, first, ensure our programme grows in size, while maintaining the focus and quality for which we are internationally recognised and, second, work closely with the international donor community and partners in the developing world as it is only through our combined and harmonised efforts that real change can be brought about.

The aim of our programme is to reduce poverty. To do this we must not only tackle the symptoms but also the underlying causes of poverty. It is essential to provide immediate relief for those suffering from conflict, disaster or famine. Many organisations do this effectively in respect of which considerable sums are expended from the programme to assist them. However, the core of our efforts is concentrated on contributing to the solution of the underlying causes of poverty. The focus is on economic growth as well as the provision of basic services. We have only to look at our own situation to understand the importance of the engine of growth in enhancing the lives and well-being of people.

We recognise the importance of good governance, inclusive political processes and human rights. Our development activities concentrate not only on the achievement of social and economic well-being but also the empowerment of people. Giving people choices is essential. Dire poverty comes with a sense of total lack of power over one's life. Without harping on about parliamentary visits, from the reports I have received from members who travelled to Zambia, the people there were very grateful for the advice on governance and civil society, as it is sometimes called, that they received from our parliamentarians. That is the real value of such visits. The people learn first-hand from our Deputies the way our country works successfully in a democratic sense.

Parliament is a real driver of change in people's lives. A few years ago a study entitled, Voices of the Poor, brought together the voices of 60,000 poor men and women in 60 countries. What they had to tell was shocking in a world of seeming abundance. The experience of poverty across continents reveals a great commonality — hunger, deprivation, powerlessness, resilience, social isolation, resourcefulness and gender inequity. When asked what would make the greatest difference in their lives, the poor replied that they did not want charity; they wanted opportunity. They want organisations of their own in order that they can negotiate with governments, non-governmental organisations and traders. They want community driven programmes to allow them shape their own destiny. They want local ownership of the development process and non-governmental and other power groups to be accountable to them.

The Irish programme is responsive to these needs. Partnership and participation are hallmarks of the programme. We work at national and local level to build official capacity to deliver basic social services in a sustainable manner. While we work closely with local authorities and communities on the ground, we must listen even more closely to the voices of the poor themselves who are clearly asking us to build their capacities to participate in local governance and demand transparency and accountability at local level.

Organisational capacity or social capital is perhaps the most important asset of the poor. As we move into this new millennium I can think of no better way to continue to build on the success of Ireland's development programme than by responding dynamically and positively to the organisational needs of the poor. The challenge for us is to maintain progress towards the target of 0.7% of GNP. Let me be clear. We remain committed to reaching this target. We are standing at approximately 0.4% of GNP, well above the European Union average of 0.35%, but we must be mindful that difficult economic circumstances have prevailed in the past two years in Ireland as well as internationally. Other donors in similar circumstances have scaled back on their programmes. An increase of over 600% in ten years is a substantial achievement. Very few donors in other countries can match what we have done over that period, but we can do even better.

Members will be aware that the economy is picking up and that the preliminary Exchequer returns have brought positive news for the Government. There are always tremendous demands on the public purse, yet the people have demonstrated time and again their sense of compassion and solidarity with those in less fortunate nations. Private contributions to the work of missionaries and non-governmental organisations have always been very generous. In that regard, it is worthwhile paying tribute to the many non-governmental organisations and charities which raise money here. It is important to recognise that on the private side we are among the most generous in the world. We are a very generous people, both on the private and public side. As I said, this is the seventh most generous nation in terms of our contribution to the Third World at state level.

This interest in the welfare of the developing world has been reflected in the survey of public attitudes towards development co-operation carried out in 2002. This interest is also shared at the political level. While politicians may occasionally differ in the emphasis we accord to different aspects of the development co-operation programme, there is broad agreement across the political spectrum and I hope in this committee in support of a strong programme of development assistance to address the challenge of a form of poverty which has no parallel in Ireland.

The Estimates process is under way and as always, the discussions will be intense. Members will be aware that there are limits to what I can say in advance of those discussions with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen. My senior Minister, Deputy Ahern, will also be involved. We should maintain momentum towards achieving the goal of 0.7% of GNP which can be a fast moving target in a rapidly growing economy. Substantial increases in monetary terms can lag behind in percentage terms if GNP is ahead of expectation. That is the bottom line. As the economy continues to grow, the absolute figure in terms of our generosity and the level of assistance we are giving to the Third World also grows, but we are falling behind in percentage terms. We are, in a sense, victims of our own success. However, such an environment is positive in making the case for substantial increases in our aid budget. Members can be assured that the case for increasing it will be made with vigour in the context of the Estimates discussion that will occur in the coming weeks. I value their encouragement and invite them to lobby me in that regard because such support is appreciated.

I note that the European Union is committed to reaching an average figure of 0.42% by 2006 across the Union. This will necessitate the rich members of the Union playing their part by substantially increasing their outlays on development assistance. We must lead the way. We have done so to date and must continue to do so. The day is not far off when Ireland will climb up the rankings from being the seventh most generous nation in the world to a position where we will be in the top three. That will not be achieved in my term of office, but we should set ourselves a high bar in terms of what we wish to achieve. We should aspire to being among the top three donors in the world within ten years.

Dóchas and others have urged that we reach the 0.7% target by 2007. To achieve this aim we would have to increase our expenditures by up to €180 million per year, depending on the rate of GNP growth. Essentially, that would mean doubling the programme within three years. I want to be realistic. While I believe we could use a major infusion of additional funding, my preference is for a steady, planned and guaranteed increase that would facilitate the normal planning cycles which are the basis of effective programming. I welcome the comments made by the Chairman on returning to a position where we would have multi-annual programmes and a financial envelope from the Minister for Finance, as was the case up to 2001. It was disturbed in 2001 but my key goal in these Estimates discussions with the Minister is to revert to the position in 2001 when the tragic attack on the World Trade Centre knocked many things off course.

The goal over the next few weeks is to get us to a position of guaranteed funding over three years. I do not want to haggle with the Minister for Finance next year over the amount of money that we may receive. We want to keep firmly to a three year approach and know what level of funding we have so that the non-governmental organisations and the Department can plan the roll-out and expansion of our programme around the world.

In the Estimates discussions I will make a strong case for a major increase in our resources in 2005 and commitments for 2006 and beyond. The target of 0.7% is my objective and that of the Government and I want to move quickly towards it. Only five countries are members of that exclusive 0.7% club, namely, Denmark, the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway and Luxembourg. Most of these countries have been far wealthier for far longer than we have been, although that does not excuse anything we are doing or failing to do. They have been very wealthy for a long time and we are achieving in a short time what they achieved over many years, which is a great sign of our progress. Ireland should take its place in that exclusive group and it has the ability to do so.

Successful development does not depend simply on money, but on how we spend it. It requires value for money, effectiveness and accountability. The quality of our programme is vital. Our international reputation is built on the fact that we work in the poorest countries and demonstrate our partnership approach at every level. Of all the OECD members, Ireland delivers the largest share of its assistance to the least developed countries. We can continue this good work utilising additional funding which hopefully will become available from the Estimates process.

In addition to giving aid we must consider further ways of stimulating economic growth and social progress in the developing world. While aid has a vital role to play in facilitating economic and social advancement, much as membership of the European Union has had such a beneficial effect here, the real engines are increased production, new trading opportunities, sound policies and reduced debt. As we grow we can play an even greater role in these areas, through our programme and also at the international level as an untiring advocate for the poor and the disenfranchised. That has been Ireland's great contribution to world affairs. Many religious and missionary groups have made a significant contribution to this. Now the responsibility passes almost by the day into the hands of the State to fill the role established by the missionary fathers and sisters of the past. We will achieve that objective but we need the support of the committee in doing that. We are not trying to slide away from our commitments, we are moving towards our target as aggressively as we can.

I thank the Minister of State for that presentation and for his comments on Zambia. Our trip was a separate one and we have published a report on it. I recommend it to any member of the media who is interested in this area. It is on the table of the House and we can provide copies of any reports, as well as copies of our reports on Uganda and Ethiopia. I echo the Minister of State's comment that these are important working sessions. I hope that the committee will adhere to the programme as set out. We looked at figures but the Government responded in August by saying that it would stick to the programme, a point which everyone seems to have missed. It is in the published document agreed between the parties in the Government. A sum in the order of €1.5 billion extra was paid into the coffers this year which will be very helpful.

The Minister of State mentioned his concern about realism and we are realistic here but the reality with which we are dealing is the people who live on less than a dollar a day. When one sees them and their circumstances one begins truly to appreciate the value of what we and some other countries have been doing to improve their position. We hope the Minister of State will have success with the structured multi-annual approach. One of our difficulties is an embarrassment of riches because as GNP grows, the percentage grows which can make it more difficult to contribute. We will give the Minister of State our full backing in the final stage of the Estimates and in the budget which is to follow.

I welcome the Minister of State and congratulate him on his appointment and wish him well. I have no doubt he will do extremely well in the post. I welcome his address which was very strong and positive. Some of us got the jitters recently when there was some wavering in intent in achieving the goals which are the target of this committee. We have said this repeatedly. I have singled out one sentence from the Minister of State's address: "We must lead the way". We can do that. The commitment is there. We all agree a plan must be put in place to ensure that when a multi-annual envelope is made available it is adequate to address the needs of DCI and the development programme generally. Will the Minister of State outline, in as much detail as he can, what he envisages DCI being able to do with the additional funding we believe is necessary?

Several members of the committee have travelled to some of these programme countries and it is clear that DCI, the donor organisations, the NGOs and religious communities who work in these countries are doing an inspirational job. Anyone who has the opportunity of visiting Tigray and who can see the work DCI is doing, with the support of NUI Cork, to transform a valley adjacent to Mekelemust be inspired by the lush growth, grazing cattle, honey, high quality milk and better crops, that we saw. When the wider community recognises what can be achieved there will be no difficulty convincing our colleagues of the value of increasing the budget. We saw a health centre, the sod for which had been turned on a previous visit by Deputies Coveney and Eoin Ryan. It is now open and providing a variety of health services to a broad range of people using outreach health workers engaged with the community.

We saw a school of 2,064 students built by our Government through DCI educating young people aged from three or four years to people in their early 20s who came streaming down the valleys in a way reminiscent of Alice Taylor's book about Irish education many years ago. I would really like to see greater investment in curriculum development and teacher training. Would it be possible for us to place greater emphasis on issues such as these?

In Uganda we saw the support service being provided in a hospital in Kampala where, with the support of Trinity College and St. James's Hospital, a high quality AIDS research support service is available. Support is being provided for the professional medical community at the relatively low cost of €87,000 over a period of three or four years.

We saw Dr. Collins from west Cork who works on malaria treatment projects in the IDP refugee camp in Gulu, Uganda. Nets were provided in huts for pregnant women which brought about an improvement in mortality rate among children and the adult population.

Some 15,000 nets.

Yes. Whatever chemicals were used to impregnate the nets outlasted the nets. There is a very good story to tell. I can only speak with authority on Ethiopia and Uganda. It is a case of pushing an open door with the Irish community. I am glad the Taoiseach reiterated the Government's commitment to achieving these goals and we will be nipping at the Minister's heels to ensure the targets are met.

The Government has enormous influence on President Museveni in Uganda who has published a White Paper on governance matters, including whether he ought to be returned for a third term and whether a change in the constitution can be achieved. The Government has huge moral authority through the investment it is making in ensuring there is good governance in Uganda.

We met Prime Minister Meles Zenawi in Addis Ababa who agreed to invite observers to next year's elections. Good governance costs money and if we are to improve standards of governance in Zambia, Ethiopia, Uganda and elsewhere, we need to spend it. We have built a platform from which we can leap forward dramatically in removing Africa from the circle of dire poverty. It would be to the credit of the developed world if it could give Africa the opportunity to be in the race towards progress. This is achievable through what the Government is doing.

The staff in Development Co-operation Ireland are second to none. Without exception, every single member I have encountered, as well as those from the donor community working with them, is performing an outstanding job. It is perfectly clear that they are not throwing money at the problem. A careful value for money exercise is conducted at all times. Contrary to what some commentators suggest, not a single cent is wasted. We can say to the Irish community with a degree of assurance that every cent of taxpayer's money that is voted will be well spent.

I join others in welcoming the new Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, and wishing him well. I know him for a long time and even recall his father as Chairman of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, of which I have been a member from the beginning. He will excuse me if I speak frankly. This is a disastrous afternoon and the Minister of State has begun disastrously by selling the past before negotiations are even opened. The commitment to achieve a figure of 0.7% of GNP to be expended in overseas development aid by 2007 was a solemn one, given before the community of nations by the Taoiseach at the United Nations. He made this commitment in full knowledge of what was involved.

I have listened with great care to the thoughtful speeches that have been made, including that of the Minister of State, in which he used words like "realistic". How realistic is it to break one's word to the poorest of the poor? How realistic is it to have one piece of rhetoric when one is seeking votes for the Security Council and break it within a few years? In replying the Minister of State need not try to seek recourse in semantics about what was said about 2007. I expect to hear all of this, not from the Minister of State, but from many others who as we debate the issue in the coming weeks will suggest ways of dealing with the matter. We are breaking a promise, a commitment of immense moral significance directed at the poorest of the poor. We are breaking the commitment given in that most important assembly, the United Nations, by the head of Government, the Taoiseach, which was repeated by him in Johannesburg in the context of how HIV-AIDS might be dealt with.

We are breaking our promise at a time when there is already a shortfall in the budget provision for the achievement of the world millennium development goals. For example, the budget available to tackle HIV-AIDS and malaria is 50% of what is needed. There is a shortfall of $2.5 billion to which our response has been to break our promise. We can spin until the cows come home, but the reality is that a commitment given has been broken by a country that regularly — I got another hint of it today — congratulates itself on being newly rich, self-confident and affluent and which is delighted to tell other countries how they can be as well governed as we are and drag themselves up to be just like us. I say, "Lord help us", when I hear that kind of arrogant, patronising and unreal guff.

Let us be realistic. Let us deal with real figures. The level of overseas development aid is not 0.41% this year but an estimated 0.39%. The level never reached 0.45% as was said in 2000. Are these not real figures? Were they not real when the Minister of State was sitting across the table from the brothers and sisters and the trade union movement? Should they not be concerned that when they signed up for the partnership programme, they had real figures in front of them?

I propose that the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs call on the Government to honour its commitment to achieve the target of 0.7% in overseas development aid by 2007 and announce a series of measures to allocate proportionate funds in order that it can be achieved on a year by year basis.

I formally second that proposal.

I am not insensitive to the fine speech I have just heard. Deputy Carey referred to the position in Mekele and Tigray. My sister-in-law is the longest serving person on the programme. I have visited Uganda and Ethiopia. However, one does not need to travel anywhere to know when a promise is being broken and one's Government is being disgraced. One does not need to know anything when one thing is being said but something else is being delivered. The battle about the level of overseas development aid as a proportion of GNP was fought a long time ago. For example, two previous Ministers of State were mentioned, Deputies Kitt and O'Donnell. The latter has described on a radio programme how she lay across the budget rather than give way on the principle of the aim to reach the target of 0.7% by 2007. In fact, between her leaving office and the Minister of State's immediate predecessor, Deputy Kitt, taking up office, €40 million was slashed from the Overseas Development Aid Vote.

It is the mark of a sophisticated country, taking its place properly in the international community, that it is able to look at itself for real, rather than spinning about itself. The truth of the matter is that a senior civil servant wrote the speech for the Taoiseach that was delivered at the United Nations. Now, an even more circumspect civil servant will have to write another one to suggest how he climbed back from the commitment he gave publicly and internationally. When Mr. Kofi Annan visits next week let us hear what he has to say, having been present at the Taoiseach's speech and now hearing the new explanation, that Ireland is a victim of its own success. We have become so rich that the proportions upset us. I repeat, we went through that argument before and the Department of Finance was defeated on it.

Sadly, the Minister of State has announced in advance before he goes to the bilateral meeting with his senior Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, that he thinks it unrealistic to achieve the target in 2007. It was not for the Minister of State to make such a decision. The Taoiseach made the commitment to the international community in all of our names. Let us hear it from him when he is backing off because I assure the committee there will be plenty of opportunities for this over the next few days and weeks. I hope there will be a campaign on the streets to put manners on people who think they can talk like this, one story one time and a second story for another. A commitment made in 2000, repeated in 2002, traduced in 2002 and put into the partnership agreement and An Agreed Programme for Government is now subject to the suggestion that it cannot be achieved. It is a disgraceful and humiliating day when this emerges and when it is announced almost by stealth. This is the social caring face, the Inchydoney nose of Fianna Fáil, coming back and slashing the budget for the poorest of the poor.

What is needed now is a widespread campaign to harness the public support manifest in every published poll and report, that the country wishes to achieve the target of 0.7% of GNP in 2007. I recall there was cross-party consensus, certainly in the Dáil. Deputy Jim O'Keeffe is aware of this for even longer than I am. At some stage it was suggested, perhaps by his party, that there should be a constitutional amendment to enshrine our commitment to meet the UN target. In this case the commitment of the public and that of politicians, cross-party, was in favour of the target.

From where is this suggestion coming, especially given that the Revenue got €1.5 billion from people who speculate and those who operate illegally? We have only begun to round up the unpaid taxes of the super-rich, the type of haute bourgeois ignorant group which wants to invest its money abroad without paying tax, and which subscribes to a philosophy that to pay tax in one’s own country is somehow déclassé, something one should not be doing since it is all one’s own money. One should be at the trough regurgitating it again and again. It is that type of thinking. We have got over €1.5 billion from those types of people. At the same time this money is being dragged back we are breaking our commitment as regards the 1.5 billion people living on less than a dollar a day.

The gross figures are irrelevant. I am not going to be distracted from this, but will highlight it every time I hear it. The Minister of State should retreat to the absolute figures. He will be in good shape there. To take one year with another our figures look good. Then when they are compared with our European partners he could get away with that, too.

The figures are good.

The reality——

The figures are good.

No one is saying they are not, but the Minister of State is breaking his promise. It is a great pity he did not have the bottle before he went on radio to stand his ground at his first meeting with the Department of Finance.

As regards what is necessary to be done, I want, with others, to thank the different NGOs who have prepared analyses year after year on what could be done. The Minister of State could advise that it may cost €180 million to put the target back on course. Does that bring him to the figure of 0.42%, which was the interim goal in 2000, and what will be the figure for the following year? Even now, if the Minister of State was to say that he wants to achieve the target of 0.7% in the shortest possible time and was eschewing the target year of 2007, agreed by the Taoiseach and the UN, what year does he have in mind and what will be the proportionate stage payments? Will he say that if we get more tax money back if the revenues look good and if growth is greater than projected, it will have to be looked at again as we would be giving too much away?

The reality is that what is slipping away is the issue of moral principle, a clear commitment to the UN target supported by the public, by all parties in the House and by Independents. The campaign was called "seven in seven", to reach the target of 0.7% in 2007. The Minister of State may dance up the mountain and down the valley but if he breaks that, the public will know. I hope that the decent generous people of this country will be out in the streets between now and his next meeting with the Minister for Finance and before a conclusion is reached.

I welcome the Minister of State. I am glad he mentioned his late father. I have been on the committee consistently since it started and the late Brian Lenihan was an excellent Chairman. I would also agree with what the Minister of State said about the question of junketing. I believe he is, like myself, a member of the National Union of Journalists. He was a distinguished journalist while I was a journalist of some kind.

I very much regret the way my journalistic colleagues treat these issues. I recall going abroad to Australia as part of a delegation from this country where I raised the question of East Timor in controversial circumstances. I had a stand-up row with our Minister for Foreign Affairs and was reported everywhere in America and Australia. There was not a twitter here, although there was a headline about politicians on junkets when I spoke to journalists here after they had contacted me by telephone. When I returned I contacted the newspapers and asked why they did not cover the speeches since they had the entire transcripts. I was told that politicians on a junket was a story while politicians working was not. That is a pity and it suggests lazy journalism. As a journalist I regret it. It is a point worth putting while at the same time accepting that the profession of journalism has made a remarkable and valuable contribution to the understanding of world issues of global poverty and so on for the Irish people. We should be grateful for that, but it is a pity that journalists opt so often for the easy shot.

I reiterate my formal seconding of Deputy Michael D. Higgins's motion regarding the target of funding amounting to 0.7% of GNP on overseas aid. I agree with what he says, but I would like to try to bring us back from his properly emotionally charged speech to the most constructive thing I can do. The strength of this committee has always been that we discuss and agree on issues on a cross-party basis. I detect in what Deputy Carey said, for example, a strong and sensitive support for moves in the direction of the 0.7% target. The best thing the committee could do would be to park this motion, not in an antagonistic way. I believe the Minister of State has adroitly invited us to give the Government a few belts so that he can go back to the Minister. There was the shade of his late father in this. It is a good strategic move because Deputy Cowen was an interesting Minister for Foreign Affairs. He has moved to the Department of Finance, so he knows the score. I am not suggesting he is totally cynical when I say he understands the value of the kudos this country would get from expending buttons.

It is crazy mathematics to say we are too rich to live up to our commitment. That is the greatest load of codswallop I have ever heard. Yes, we give more money, but we are swimming in it. Ireland is just about the richest nation in Europe. According to what I read in these documents it will take an additional allocation of €180 million to take us up to the 0.7% target. That is about what the Government lost on its cockeyed electronic voting debacle. Why can we not cough up that amount of money? We should do so.

The Minister of State talked persuasively about planning and said we should not just dole out dollops of money for the sake of being able to say we gave a contribution of 0.7% of GNP. Deputy Higgins has a much stronger grasp of the figures than I do; I am so gullible I was taken in by what the Minister of State said. I believed him when he said we were at 0.41%. Apparently, that is incorrect. I know my colleague and friend has a fine mathematical brain so I accept what he said but even if that was the correct figure, the Minister said it stands at 0.41%. That is the point. We are not supposed to be standing; we are supposed to be moving. Even accepting the Minister of State's own figures we are standing still, and that is not good enough. If Deputy Higgins is right we are going backwards. Nobody can maintain that either standing still or going backwards is progress. It is not and the money involved, in comparative terms, is a flea bite, the allocation of which would put us back on track now with these remarkable economic figures.

I hope all parties in this committee will put aside any resentments and so on and strongly endorse something I believe would do honour to this country. We would not be the first to do that. There are five countries there already. Let us join them and do the decent thing. I would support that and I hope we may have a vote on this issue.

This issue is a question of priorities. The Minister of State will get a view from the committee that our priority is not to go backwards but to get a commitment so that we can save the Taoiseach's honour. We can stop him making a liar of himself. Let us help him. It is our Christian duty to help the Taoiseach not to make a liar of himself.

I ask the Minister of State to take into consideration a particular aspect in which I have an interest. In fact, I have written a note to the Chairman about it which we may get to discuss later. I am aware we support programmes in various places but one of the most troubled parts of the world is the Middle East. I know quite a good deal about Israel and Palestine and I have drawn to the attention of this committee a shocking aspect with which I believe Irish people will sympathise. I happen to know, because of my former partner, Ezra, about a situation in south Hebron, in the village of Tuwani, where school children are regularly attacked and beaten by settlers with baseball bats and knives on their way to school exactly as happened, in what was a scandal in this island, in the Holy Faith Convent in Belfast. These children are simply trying to get to school. The school is being attacked. Ezra and his colleagues are in this wonderful organisation of Jewish people called Tayush, which is a bridge between the Palestinians and the Israelis. They are also trying to get small clinics up and running. These are the sort of areas I would like to see us increase our commitment to. In this troubled area we must go in and help with the humanitarian work.

Ireland is doing something, and I visited a clinic in Gaza last year, but we are not doing enough and we could help to lead the way in that regard. I saw one situation in Gaza where the French, as part of a European Union initiative, had started the construction of a sewage treatment facility but because of the Israeli incursion they had abandoned it. They have made the situation a thousand times worse because instead of treating the water they are leaving stagnant faecal pools which are threatening the lives of people. We should insist that the European Union and Ireland be permitted to go in and complete those jobs. That is very important. There should be a presence there in order to protect the civilian population. I know that UCD, for example, has done wonderful work with Bir Zeit University, and I was glad to hear Deputy Carey talk of the AIDS programme linking St. James's Hospital, Trinity College and places in Uganda. We should continue this involvement of universities and our own overseas development aid.

I would be happy to put the Minister of State in contact with the people who are involved on the ground. I spoke to them again yesterday and I understand two people from a Christian peace group were quite badly injured by these settlers while the police stood idly by, just as happened in a tragic case in the North of Ireland. This is something we could respond to because we have had similar experiences. We need to learn from those experiences and try to prevent them happening in another part of the world.

On behalf of the main Opposition party, I am glad to have the opportunity to contribute. I congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, on his appointment. I have no doubt he will bring a refreshing enthusiasm to the job but I will indicate later the nimble-footed activity he will have to bring to it in light of the way matters have developed here.

I agree with the Minister of State in regard to parliamentary visits to the developing world. It is vitally important that Members of Parliament, be they from the Dáil or the Seanad, have first-hand knowledge of what is happening on the ground. That is the only way to continue the development of a broad consensus of support for our development co-operation official programme. Not only do I reject the superficial comments of those who would criticise a parliamentarian for travelling to Uganda, I would like to see every Member of this House volunteering at some stage to partake in such a delegation. Indeed, I would not object to members of the press and other media volunteering and being paid for out of official funds to travel with such delegations and write about the realities of life in the Third World.

Let us be clear about this issue. Apart from the poverty and misery experienced in many parts of the Third World, we are talking about places that are no picnic, so to speak. In the past 24 hours two aid workers were killed in a land-mine incident in north Darfur. That incident is brought close to home when one realises that one of the workers, a man called Rafe, worked with Concern in Bangladesh. While Concern is also involved in Darfur, this man was not working for it but a United Kingdom organisation in Darfur. He and his colleague were killed there yesterday. In many ways we are talking about matters of life and death. We are not talking about theoretical situations but real problems in the real world for those who are trying to work in these countries, and particularly for those who live in them.

That brings me to the main thrust of the Minister's contribution. I will not try to match the rhetoric of my colleague, Deputy Michael Higgins. He has his own unique way of presenting the case. I would have to say, however, that the strong flow of words from him was justified. Let us be real about this area. During my time in politics I have supported the 0.7% target. As my colleagues are probably aware, as the then Minister of State I was involved in dealing with the development programme for a number of years. I have seen progress made and at all stages the approach was that we were aiming for the target as resources permit. That was always the let-out phrase; we would progress towards the target as resources would permit. That position changed dramatically a few years ago. The Taoiseach made it clear there was a Cabinet decision before he went to the Millennium Summit in the United Nations in 2000 and there was a positive Government commitment to reach the target. We had two targets: to reach 0.54% within two years, by the end of 2002, and to reach the full target of 0.7% by 2007. That was a solemn commitment, made by this Government without any let-out clause. It was reiterated in Johannesburg and allegedly remains our policy. Are we living in Wonderland? We have passed 2002 but I am not sure the Minister of State has noticed that and we have not reached even the 0.54% target. He is clearly signalling that even though we remain committed to reaching the 0.7% we are not going to do so.

In my young days at the fairs and festivals in West Cork there was a three card trick man. He shot the cards around and people betted to find the Queen. We are into a three card trick game with overseas aid as far as this Government is concerned. The commitment was made and has been broken each year since 2000. It is time for the Government to lay out exactly what it is going to do between now and the next election. There are some merits. At least it can say mea culpa. It is in the interests of those involved in the front line of this work that we should know what will happen over the next few years. The committee should fully support Deputy Higgins’ proposal. I was struck by the words of the Fianna Fáil representative, Deputy Carey. I know where his heart lies, as I know the Minister of State would like to see the commitment being kept. The issue that arises is whether the committee is prepared to face reality and put our cards and our demands on the table. We should adopt my colleague’s proposal.

I have another proposal. The Minister of State would like to come back to us after the Estimates process and say he has the multi-annual envelope but he knows he will not be able to do that. The Taoiseach made the commitment on behalf of all of us, at the United Nations, in a most solemn speech and repeated it subsequently. The person who made that promise should come before this committee. We should invite the Taoiseach, who is the responsible person as leader of the Government, to set out exactly what has happened, what is happening, and, most importantly, what is going to happen, to that solemn commitment he gave to the United Nations on behalf of this nation.

I welcome the Minister of State to the meeting and congratulate him on his appointment. At a meeting of the sub-committee on development co-operation last week we congratulated him and there is a letter on the way also congratulating him on his promotion. Our sub-committee made a proposal similar to Deputy Higgins some months ago to reach the target of 0.7% GNP by 2007 so there is no need to vote on that. The Minister of State would like our support on that issue. At last week's meeting we heard representatives from the Debt and Development Coalition and Sister Mary Quinn from the Presentation sisters talking about Zambia.

Senator Michael Kitt has suggested that it is not necessary to vote. Could he please explain that?

Senator Norris is the only person to suggest that it might be necessary. It is generally agreed.

I just wanted to clarify if it is because we want to support the Minister of State as strongly as possible.

That is right. We wrote that down but I am letting everyone speak first to have a normal debate.

In other words if it is not voted it will go through unanimously.

We will agree it unanimously and say:

The joint committee calls on the Government to fulfil its public commitment to achieve the UN target of 0.7% GNP for ODA expenditure by 2007 and calls for serious and substantial measures to achieve this target to be taken in the forthcoming Estimates.

I proposed that the Taoiseach be invited here as well.

We will deal with that separately.

I will second that.

That is a separate issue.

May I formally table it?

The Deputy may if he wishes. It requires four days notice.

Is the Chairman quoting text at me?

No, I am simply informing the Deputy of the reality.

I ask the Chairman to waive the requirement in the circumstances, as suggested by my colleague, Senator Norris.

The Chairman is interrupting my colleague Senator Michael Kitt's train of thought. He has gone slightly off the rails.

The Chairman has been very supportive of my comments. I thank him and the members. At the meeting last week of the sub-committee on development co-operation Sister Mary Quinn of the Presentation sisters spoke of the shortage of 9,000 teachers in Zambia because the Zambian Government had stopped recruitment and she suggested that money was being spent on military development. I said that was deplorable. Perhaps the Chairman could take up the question of what is more important than education and health spending when there is a serious problem with AIDS in the country. Jean Somers of the Debt and Development Coalition raised the question of the moves to cancel debt in countries such as Zambia where Ireland has fully supported the so-called HIPC initiative. I would like to hear the Minister of State's views on that. Perhaps some members of his team could answer it. I hope that we will soon meet the Minister of State at a meeting of the sub-committee.

I want to use the first 0.7% of my speech to welcome the Minister of State. What will be his legacy? This is a U-turn. It is backtracking. Is he aware of the commitment the Taoiseach made on 3 September 2002? He stated:

The decline in global ODA in the 1990s is shameful, indefensible and inconsistent with the commitments given at Rio. I re-iterate Ireland's absolute commitment to achieving, by 2007, the UN target of spending 0.7% of GNP on Overseas Development Assistance.

Will the Minister of State please state his absolute commitment to reaching that target, not at some undefined date in the future but in two years time, by 2007? That was an absolute commitment given by the Minister of State's party leader. Is this change occurring because the marginalised do not have votes or because representatives of developing countries cannot turn up at the gates of Leinster House or St. Luke's? Ireland should be a beacon of hope in the world, not a symbol of lack of commitment.

I note that when bodies such as the National Roads Authority looked for a commitment to multi-annual funding, they got it immediately at the drop of a hat. Why is a commitment to multi-annual funding for development aid not given again? I wonder whether the dalliance with Fr. Seán McDonagh at Inchydoney was simply a fling or a one night stand.

We can remember his name — Fr. Seán Healy.

That is a start, but does the Minister of State remember what he said? Is he afraid of making a commitment to the issues about which he spoke or was it simply a fling in west Cork forgotten about once he came back to Dublin?

We are singing from the one hymn sheet.

I hope that is the case now.

The Deputy's party had its own fling with the Presidency which did not last long either.

Please allow Deputy Cuffe to speak without interruption.

In a section of his contribution the Minister of State dealt with development aid. I hope he will look back at what Fr. Healy said and pay more attention to it. What he said on radio last Friday was a slap in the face for developing countries. He is taking it out on those least able to defend themselves, those without a vote at the Cabinet table or in Leinster House. I call on him to reverse last Friday's back-tracking which was a sickening blow to the developing world. He should think about his own legacy and ensure the commitment to reach the target 0.7% is achieved, not at some ill-defined date in the future but in less than 1,000 days' time, in 2007.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, who comes from a family with a tremendous commitment to politics. His late father and I served together in County Roscommon. He is well equipped to work in this capacity and I am confident of his commitment to overseas development aid.

I express our admiration for the work in this area of the former Ministers of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputies Kitt and O'Donnell. The issue has had a higher profile since those individuals became involved.

The commitment to reach the target of 0.7% of GNP is a realisable goal. It is Government policy which must be followed. The money is badly needed throughout the world and only a small portion of what is required. By showing where we stand, we can give an example to other developed countries in recognition of the support given to us from international funds in our darker days.

Senator Norris referred to Palestine where the situation is a source of grave concern. However, the difficulty is that it is extremely dangerous for non-governmental organisations and volunteers to work in the area. Little respect is shown by opposing factions to organisations such as the Red Cross. We should bear this in mind as far as funding is concerned.

I worked in Bosnia-Herzegovina with APSO, an organisation for which I had great admiration. It was a retrograde step to reduce its autonomy and bring it back under the direct responsibility of the Department of Foreign Affairs. The Minister of State may be in a position to expand its activities on the basis of a peace corps, bearing in mind the significant number of Irish voluntary organisations working throughout the world, for instance, in building houses in South Africa. They are all adding to the overall contribution to the Third World and development throughout the world.

I wish the Minister of State every success in his portfolio. I have no doubt he will bring tremendous enthusiasm to his first Ministry to make it a success. We will be back in government after the next general election which will take place in three years time and want to make sure the Minister of State will move up the ministerial ladder. That will be a big incentive.

In regard to the trip, I congratulate our colleagues on travelling abroad to areas not as attractive as the photographs published in the Irish Independent of elephants in retreat. It would be better to publish photographs of children with AIDS, children in camps and those who are suffering. The imagery was very effective and certainly downgraded their role in working abroad. I agree that members of the press should go on these visits abroad. In this regard I commend Rodney Rice and RTE which is funded by the Department of Foreign Affairs for the radio programme “Worlds Apart” that makes available information on the Third World to a wider audience.

Like my colleagues, I extend a warm welcome to the Minister of State and wish him well in his portfolio. With his commitment and dedication, I have no doubt he will be as successful in his brief with responsibility for overseas development aid as Deputies O'Donnell and Kitt. I have been overseas on a number of occasions in places like Ethiopia, Botswana and South Africa and seen the benefits of the contribution of Irish NGOs and religious. Their work was made possible by the financial assistance they received because of the commitment of this country to overseas development aid.

When we were canvassing for a seat at the UN Security Council, many Ministers, including me, went overseas. The recognition and appreciation of our people on the ground, the NGOs and religious, and our financial support that has changed the lives of people in the countries concerned are well documented. The committee is unanimous in its view that our commitment to overseas development aid must be honoured. We must strive in every way we can to ensure it happens within the agreed timeframe. It is not just a local matter but an international one for which we have received great recognition. It would be a pity, after all the work that has been and is being done, if it were to be spoiled by the wrong message, although I accept there are financial constraints. It is a pity that more Irish people cannot travel abroad and see how people cope elsewhere. We have to take on board what the press says about junkets and get on with our job. By going there we can continue to make the case here. That is our responsibility.

I wish the Minister of State well. While I have no doubt his heart is in the right place, we must honour our commitments.

I apologise for my late arrival. I was at a meeting of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission which I have a statutory responsibility to attend. I was most anxious to attend this meeting to welcome the Minister of State.

As a former Minister of State with responsibility for this area, I was particularly disappointed to note the reneging on the Government commitment to reach the target of 0.7% of GNP by 2007 which commitment was politically driven. It was part of a political agreement between the two parties in government. For the new Minister to renege on this commitment in a public way without consultation between the two parties in government was unwise. There has to be further discussion. The commitment was made publicly by the Taoiseach with whom I attended the millennium summit in New York at which he made this commitment to the international community on behalf of Ireland. It was received with great acclaim and was very much part of our campaign for a seat on the UN Security Council. It was directly related to the African vote for Ireland holding up in that election.

It is unwise to resile from this commitment without first putting in place a clear schedule with an upward trajectory in budgetary terms. Members of the committee will recall that in 2000 I agreed a multi-annual envelope with the then Minister for Finance which meant there would be clearly visible increases over a three year period which were guaranteed as part of a political agreement between the two parties in government. Subsequent to this, after the Taoiseach's commitment at the UN summit in New York, there was Cabinet agreement that the UN target would be reached. A schedule was agreed indicating year by year how it would be reached. To my knowledge, there has been no Cabinet agreement to unravel this Government commitment.

The Government is still comprised of the same parties and it was a surprising development that on one of his first public engagements, the launch of the ODA report, the Minister of State should resile from this commitment. I note that today there is a softening of the language in that he gives a commitment that he will argue strongly with the new Minister for Finance for volume increases in the budget for 2005. Frankly, that goes without saying because there have been such increases in recent years. Notwithstanding these increases, we have been at a standstill as regards the budget as a percentage of GNP. Whether we like it, that is the international standard to which we have given a commitment, although it may prove difficult to achieve. In this respect I know the Minister of State is trying to be realistic and he is right in that sense in that we should not tell lies to the international community or the Dáil about this commitment. However, to my knowledge, the Taoiseach has not publicly withdrawn from it.

Will the Minister of State say whether he cleared his statement with the Taoiseach before announcing publicly that the Government was resiling from its aspiration and commitment to reach the UN target of 0.7%? I understand the achievement of this target will have the unanimous support of the committee. There is cross-party consensus on the issue, a matter discussed with the social partners and in respect of which there is strong public support. There have been more difficult times and the economy is picking up. There are other demands, but our partner governments which we have supported in such a sustained manner for so long are depending on us as the scale of poverty in Africa is on a completely different moral plane from the needs of our people. The credibility of Ireland is at stake. The Government should not resile from this international commitment without first putting in place a clearly visible schedule with an upward trajectory in budgetary terms. Even if it moves beyond 2007, the commitment should not be withdrawn without first putting in place an alternative schedule to reach the UN target.

The fact that we are above the European average is no excuse. It is to our credit. We have dined out on this in terms of our international credibility and commitment to civilised values, human rights and development. This is important, given that Ireland is a non-aligned country without a big military budget. We do not get involved in wars. Ireland is concerned with human rights, development and peacekeeping. Our minds need to be focused on what we do in the world and our international reputation. It is unconscionable that the Government is seen to be backsliding on its commitment, without putting in place a contingency strategy and providing a clear multi-annual envelope for reaching the target.

In welcoming the Minister of State it is unfortunate we have had to deal with severe disappointment for those of us committed to reaching the UN target in respect of our overseas development aid programme.

There is an old adage in show business, "Follow that". If the contribution of Deputy O'Donnell as a representative of one of the partners in government had been made by any other member of the committee, it might not have carried the same punch. I am sure this has not been lost on the Minister of State. As a former Minister of State with responsibility for overseas development aid, Deputy O'Donnell has left an impressive legacy and continues to highlight the plight of the Third World, with which we all empathise.

I, too, endorse the comments of welcome to my friend and colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, and wish him well in his challenging portfolio. I know him so long and so well I have no doubt he will rise to the challenges he will face in the coming years. I would like to come to his support in the light of the public statements made shortly after his appointment and picked up on by the media.

Throughout his speech the Minister of State repeated his commitment to reaching the UN target and referred to the challenge of maintaining progress. He reminded us there had been an increase of over 600% in ODA in ten years and said he believed we should maintain momentum towards achieving the goal of 0.7% of GNP, his own objective and that of the Government and to which he wanted to move quickly. He said that in the Estimates discussions he would be making a strong case for a major increase in resources. It is important to emphasise this in the discussion we have been having which has focused almost exclusively on achieving this target.

I cannot add anything to the impressive nature of Deputy O'Donnell's speech because she has encapsulated what all of us in Ireland feel about ourselves, our role in the world and the image Ireland portrays, especially in the Third World. I fully agree with what she said in respect of Ireland's position on the Security Council because I was peripherally involved. My colleague and friend, Deputy Michael Higgins, will recall a visit to Beijing where a strong case was made for Ireland to be supported on the Council by one of the major nations of the world. During that period when all of us, as politicians, were batting for the country as best we could, it was perfectly clear that Ireland's record and commitment to human rights, overseas development aid and the elimination of debt of poor countries were being strongly portrayed. Deputy O'Donnell is right in saying we do not become involved in wars, rather we become involved in peacekeeping and development overseas. We do this well. I know that the Minister of State will continue to highlight this role.

It is important that this committee in its totality conveys our view in the strongest possible terms on the achievement of the objective. I know it will be helpful to the Minister of State to have this unanimous cross-party support. I look forward to his response and hearing the outcome of what will be a difficult Estimates debate in the coming weeks.

I have two questions to ask. Does the Minister of State have any comment to make on a report published recently which seemed once again to cast doubt or, at least, raise questions about the manner in which the Ugandan Government had been using overseas development aid? This is a hoary old chestnut which surfaces regularly. In this regard, I also wish the Minister of State's predecessor, Deputy Kitt, well in his new position. He was an outstanding representative of Ireland when it came to ODA. He refuted these allegations in minute detail in a Seanad debate some months ago but in the light of the recently published report and the fact that one of the main protagonists, John O'Shea, the bête noire of the overseas development aid section in Iveagh House — I am sure Deputy O’Donnell will relate to this — has, in a sense, been justifying his own position in the national media again recently, I would be grateful if the Minister of State took the opportunity to clarify the matter.

Can the Minister of State give us any indication as to the side on which Ireland is coming down in regard to what appears to be a confused position in the Darfur region of Sudan? According to what I have read in recent weeks, the American position, in particular, appears to be somewhat at odds with the reality on the ground. It was a welcome development when the United States Congress voted to define what was happening in Darfur, especially as the same Congress had refused during the Clinton Administration to define what was happening in Rwanda as genocide, which prevented any international help being given to those affected. It appears there is another political agenda in Darfur being led by the Americans, for reasons best known to themselves, because the statements they have been making about what is happening there are being challenged and questioned by aid agencies on the ground, specifically in regard to the number who have died or are unable to avail of aid and are suffering extreme poverty and deprivation. I do not expect the Minister of State to go into detail on this matter but it has been raised and is creating confusion internationally in terms of what appears, on the one hand, to be an American perception of what is happening in Darfur and the perception of aid agencies working on the ground on the other. Does this have any implications for us because Ireland has a number of aid agencies involved in the area?

We will proceed to the question of Darfur as soon as we have finished this discussion.

I record my support for Deputy Higgins's proposal. There is no justification for reneging on a public commitment made by the Government to the international community about which I am somewhat confused and would like to ask the Minister of State one question. We have heard that the Government remains committed to the achievement of the 0.7% target and that this commitment was made with the agreement of the Government partners. We have heard nothing to indicate other than that the Taoiseach remains committed to it. Who indicated to the Minister of State that there was a need for a new realism? He indicated that this target may not be reached by 2007. Did he dream this up himself or was it indicated to him by administrative or political figures? I listened carefully to the debate but the position is unclear to me. There appears to be no indication from any quarter of the Government that this commitment will not be adhered to. It has come as a great surprise to one of the partners in government. The Taoiseach has not said anything to lead us to believe he has changed his mind on the public commitment he gave. Who indicated to the Minister of State that the likelihood was that the Government would renege on its commitment to the world's poorest people?

Senator Mooney was probably not here at the start of the meeting when I made a statement about the position in Uganda from where we have just returned. Our experience was that Development Co-operation Ireland and the NGOs were clear on their objectives in terms of the way the money was to be spent, accountability and working with governments. We know there are many problems to be dealt with in sub-Saharan Africa, which nobody is denying. It is very easy to get a headline by talking about it. I am not suggesting the Senator is doing this but he spoke about headlines in the newspapers. It is solid work on the ground that matters and it is improving all the time. For instance, next week a special conference will be held on governance in sub-Saharan Africa. The various EU partners are working hard to improve the situation and we were given assurances in Zambia, Ethiopia and Uganda, countries in which we spent a good deal of time, that controls were in place and that the work required was being done thoroughly by Development Co-operation Ireland but there are many problems to be dealt with.

Such statements tend to draw attention away from the problems and get people thinking that perhaps we are wasting our money in these countries. The latest statement was to the effect that the levels of reduction in HIV-AIDS were not as great as was claimed. Is anything ever as great as is claimed, whether in the United States, Ireland, England, Germany or elsewhere? It probably is not but there is no doubt from our experience that wonderful work is being done which is an example to the rest of the world, sub-Saharan Africa in particular. We visited some of the areas Deputy Carey mentioned, on which we will compile a report, but we cannot continue chasing after statements made, for whatever reason, by one person, in particular, and a number of others. We must be constructive but such statements can be very damaging, particularly when considering the Estimates. If somebody says money is being wasted, it can be very damaging in terms of the Ministers' negotiations.

We do not expect the Minister of State to answer all of the questions raised.

(Interruptions).

The problem is that another group is waiting to make a presentation. I am prepared to stay here until midnight.

I am grateful to the Chairman for outlining what he found on the ground during his visit. As far as I am concerned, Development Co-operation Ireland is perfectly efficient in terms of the way in which overseas development aid is administered.The former Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, has made this clear and I have no reason to doubt what he said. On the question of headlines, given that in recent weeks the leader of a substantial overseas development agency was given nearly ten minutes air-time on "The News at One", a programme listened to by over 500,000 people, during which he raised the same doubts and went unchallenged, it is only right that I should allow the Minister of State responsible an opportunity, if he feels so inclined, to refer to the work of Development Co-operation Ireland in Uganda. I am not doubting anything. I am on the side of the Irish contribution but to use a phrase, "He hasn't gone away, you know".

It is a problem generally and we need more air-time on the whole issue. Those statements need to be challenged.

We are talking about somebody who is not here but who at the same time has rendered significant service to the country overseas. While I accept he holds a particular view on the position in Uganda, I will not have John O'Shea castigated in his absence by this committee.

There was a report in the newspapers recently on HIV-AIDS in which it was suggested that they were not as well controlled as people believed. The other questions arise all the time.

We should let the man in question come here and defend his view, as we would do with anybody else.

It had nothing to do with HIV-AIDS but with the alleged misappropriation of overseas development aid for military purposes by the Ugandan Government. That was the specific matter to which I was referring.

Until the Deputy, nobody introduced the name of anyone. These issues are coming up and are worrying because people use them to work against the interests of Development Co-operation Ireland and overseas development aid in general. Would the Minister of State like to respond?

I would like to respond and will be guided by the Chairman as to whether he wants me to start with Deputy Carey's question or that of the last speaker. I will address Deputy Carey's question if that is the wish of the meeting.

I deeply appreciate members' kind comments and the passion demonstrated by two former Ministers of State who held the portfolio I now hold. I acknowledge the passion with which Deputy Higgins expressed himself which springs from a deep well of idealism about this issue which may in some places be inaccurate. Nevertheless, I understand and appreciate his idealism. I also appreciate the idealism of those around the table, across the parties, who have expressed support for the Government in achieving the target of 0.7% of GNP.

I made comments when I was given this brief to inject realism into whether and how, and in what manner and timescale, we would move towards achieving this target. It is a solemn commitment of the Taoiseach and the Government but we must look realistically at whether it can be achieved within the timeframe set out. It is important to inject this debate with realism as well as idealism and substantially achieve our objectives. I am not obsessive about timeframes. The objective is far more important than the timeframe but we will try to do it within it.

My ambition and starting point for the negotiations beginning in the next week or two on the Estimates is to fight the cause and battle with my colleague, the Minister for Finance. I want to make the point that members of the committee have made here individually and, through the motion unanimously passed, we must try to reach this objective. Rather than making personal comments about the Taoiseach's commitment and its solemnity, one must recognise that he made it in a fantastic moment of idealism which has energised my Department and this committee to achieve the target. That is the most important point: as a country, we are committed to achieving it.

I hope I will be more than two years and nine months in the Department and that my legacy as Minister of State will be that in the calendar year 2007 we will be within striking distance of, if not on, the targeted figure of 0.7%.

There are other items I would like to leave if I ever depart from the Department which I will discuss at another time.

It is a completely ambiguous position.

Will the Deputy allow me to answer the various questions asked? In response to Deputy Carey's question about increased moneys, people seem to have forgotten that the budget for overseas development aid has increased steadily since 1992. There has been no slashing of the budget. Perhaps Deputy Higgins used that phrase inadvertently.

There has been no slashing.

I never suggested that.

The Deputy did. He used the word "slashing".

I said the perception——

I do not know what happens to the Deputy——

The Deputy wants to clarify the position.

The estimated percentage for 2004 is 0.39%. For 2003 it was 0.4%. I made the comment that it was less than 0.41%. I was referring to the transition period between Deputy O'Donnell leaving office and the Minister of State's predecessor, Deputy Tom Kitt, taking up office. I said there was an announced cut of €32 million which turned out to be a cut of €40 million. I am perfectly happy for people to go back and check this.

Deputy Carey's question was pertinent. He asked what would happen when Development Co-operation Ireland received more funds. We are going to deepen and expand the programme in the countries where it operates. As members know, the Taoiseach recently visited Vietnam where we are talking about announcing a programme, together with a recommendation that the Department should cautiously expand its geographic focus. The OECD recommended that we move outside our African mandate and expand the Department's activities into other parts of the world. One can see that, in line with the Government's Asia strategy, we will expand into Vietnam as the Taoiseach has announced. I hope we can soon give that country the full programme status it should enjoy. It is also intended to expand our geographic focus into its neighbouring countries, Laos and Cambodia.

If members permit, I will ask Mr. Frank Sheridan to answer Deputy Carey's question about teacher training. We will furnish the committee with a detailed note but the simple answer is that our organisation is involved in teacher training in programme countries which programmes have been successful.

My departmental officials, both here and back at the office, have used Ireland's leverage as a donor country on specific issues that have arisen in Uganda. In the past year we have persuaded the Museveni Government to reduce its defence spending. I would not be so hubristic as to say Ireland did this alone. We did it with the other key donor countries that contribute to Uganda and achieved a result. Last April, with the other donor countries, we achieved a military withdrawal from the Congo where we are genuinely keeping the situation under review. We have exerted and used our leverage for positive results in the past in Uganda. We have also moved some moneys into ring-fenced funds. In other words, we have changed our budget priorities, as have other countries involved in Uganda, by switching the money we would have given under the general heading of budgetary assistance and support to the Ugandan Government to enact programmes into ring-fenced funds where there can be no interference with the aid.

Deputy Higgins did not really ask a question, he made a speech, which I appreciate. I also appreciate his exhortation to involve ourselves in a position of moral principle in this regard. We are engaged in a morally principled effort in achieving the target but we must inject our idealism with realism. The least the countries concerned and the poor deserve is that we be focused and realistic in our idealism rather than unfocused and unrealistic about our work.

The terrorist attack on the World Trade Centre on 11 September 2001 had a major effect and ramifications around the world, not least in budgetary calculations. In the following two years we lost out on funding and did not move quickly to the target. This was evident throughout Irish life as there was less Exchequer funding. It is true to say that between Deputy O'Donnell leaving office and Deputy Tom Kitt taking up office the multi-annual envelope was simply dropped. It was eliminated. That was a disturbing development.

There was a cut.

I am talking about the multi-annual envelope for a three year period which disappeared subsequent to Deputy O'Donnell leaving office. People may want to ask what I hope will be my legacy or what is my commitment. In the context of the Estimates, my commitment is to restore the multi-annual envelope in order that we get back on track to achieve our commitment in this area.

Senator Norris urged me to "go for it". I absolutely agree and will do so. His injunction about standing still is also very true. The country can get kudos by reaching our target. On his question about the Middle East and his partner, Ezra's issue concerning Tayush and what is happening in Hebron, I have taken note of his comments and will come back to him. The officials finalised our Palestine strategy only this morning and I hope we will be in a position to make an announcement on the programme of assistance we will be extending to Palestine.

Deputy O'Keeffe asked about volunteering, the issue of life and death, three card tricks and other proposals. As a former Minister of State with responsibility in this area, I very much welcome his contribution but there is no three card trick being played. We are trying to reach the target in the most realistic manner possible. It would be pointless for me to be unrealistic in my approach and create public expectations; not unnaturally, disappointment would follow if the targets I set myself were unachievable.

How can it be unrealistic to do what the Minister of State said?

Senator Kitt raised an issue about Sr. Mary Quinn and the shortage of teachers in Zambia. There is a very serious problem which underlines the horrible existence of people living in poor countries in the Third World. HIV and AIDS are killing more teachers than can be trained in Zambia. Members can imagine the full horror of this.

A specific question was raised about the HIPCI and debt relief. I was going to ask Mr. Sheridan to answer it. However, with the permission of Senator Kitt, it might be preferable to come back to him with a detailed note.

Deputy Cuffe asked a broad question about the 0.7% target. I believe I have answered his question and the specified versus unspecified——

With respect, the Minister of State has left me more confused than ever.

That is the Deputy's problem. I cannot be responsible for constraints on his intellectual capacity.

It is the world of realism about which I am concerned.

The Deputy is alleged to be a realist in the Green movement but I am now beginning to question this.

Senator Leyden asked about APSO. As some members of the committee may know, APSO has been fully absorbed and integrated into the Department. I believe Senator Leyden spoke about a peace corps. I do not believe people would agree with me in creating a body called "the peace corps" as it has a certain negative resonance for aid workers around the world. I am sure Deputy Higgins could fill the Senator in on the matter.

What is APSO called now?

APSO has been fully absorbed into the Department.

What does that mean?

The issue of volunteering is being examined in terms of what the Department does and how we can improve it. We hope to have an initiative to increase the number who volunteer for overseas work in the Third World. I believe a tender has been submitted to the Department and that a decision will be made shortly about a training centre for aid workers who travel overseas to work. This could be described as a capacity building measure to build on the expertise, experience and idealism of those involved in working overseas. This will be particularly true for those who go with non-governmental organisations.

I welcome the comments of Deputy Wallace about keeping on track. In response to Deputy O'Donnell's comments, I am not reneging. I am trying to be realistic. She will probably find that her own party leaders can also be quite realistic on these matters. I am trying to re-establish the position which she very properly introduced as Minister of State, the multi-annual envelope, which allows people to plan and build the overseas programme we all desire.

Senator Mooney asked about the position in Uganda. I believe I have answered the question in terms of the controls we have in place. I note President Museveni's brother has been named in a UN report on corruption. We are keeping a close eye on the matter. Where moneys are deployed, we are anxious to ensure they are spent in the proper way. I believe I have set out the reason this is the case.

The Senator's question on the position in Sudan is very detailed and complicated and, with the committee's indulgence, Mr. Brendan Rogers from the Department who takes a close interest in those matters might take the opportunity to address it. I believe it relates to the American perception of what is happening in Darfur as opposed to the views of aid workers. Mr. Rogers is in charge of our emergency and recovery section.

I have not forgotten about Deputy Gregory's questions. He asked me a very pertinent question about where my statement on realism had come. I have buried myself in the Department since my appointment and studied the financial and economic implications of our commitment through the basic documents in the Department. If I am injecting realism into the debate, I make no apologies. I had to study the books like anybody else moving into a Department and consider what was achievable and attainable. I made my comments in that light. I believe that also answers Deputy O'Donnell's question.

Therefore, the Minister of State has not checked with the Government to see if he has changed policy.

If the question is whether I have changed policy with one interview, the answer is no. In the context of the Estimates, we are still working on the multi-annual envelope and the funding level to help us to achieve the result in 2007. Whether we succeed will largely depend on our ability to influence the Minister for Finance.

It was an absolute in the words of the Taoiseach.

I believe the commitment was made and have explained the context and direction in which the Taoiseach has focused the country. It is important to point out that other than Ireland very few countries have made such a commitment.

They only make commitments when they intend to keep them.

It is important to remember that a number of other countries have made commitments. The United Kingdom has committed to a target of 0.45% by 2005. Belgium has committed to a target of 0.7% by 2010. Comments about commitments should be injected with realism. At least two major countries have not made a commitment as generous or brave as ours. We must acknowledge the sincerity of both Government and Opposition Members in trying to achieve this. I will ask Mr. Rogers to answer Senator Mooney's question about the position in Darfur.

Before Mr. Rogers begins, I remind the witnesses that while members are covered by privilege, others appearing before the committee are not.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

I am head of the humanitarian section and will not tread on the political sphere. I was in Darfur recently and there is some good news and some bad news. Essentially, the 90 day plan of the United Nations to meet the most immediate humanitarian needs has been met. As the country opens up, humanitarian workers are coming across villages and communities which have greater needs. There is a certain upping of the scale. There will continue to be a high level of humanitarian need for the next year. I pay tribute to all of the NGOs, particularly the Irish NGOs which are operating in Darfur in very difficult circumstances.

Most of the bureaucratic barriers have been removed. For example, all of the visa, customs and importation problems have been eliminated. Relations with the local authorities are reasonable. NGOs have absolute access to the camps and it seems aid workers are not being stopped at too many checkpoints. However, there is an amount of banditry and the Janjaweed group continues to present a problem. I have seen fighters from the group.

It is excellent that there are approximately 6,000 humanitarian workers in the Darfur region who, in a sense, are acting as human rights monitors and of whom approximately 700 are expatriates, a major increase on the figure of 100 or 150 in February or March. Such workers are the eyes and ears of the world and are doing a remarkable job.

There have been absolute breaches of humanitarian law in Sudan. I do not doubt that absolute and appalling violent acts have been committed against many people but it is difficult to get accurate information from an area larger than France. Movement is difficult, even in four-wheel drive vehicles, because it is the rainy season. Much of the aid work is being done by means of airlifts. Representatives of the African Union are on the ground. We welcome its decision to send an expanded mission to the region.

The UN Secretary General has established a commission to investigate all aspects of the genocide in the Darfur region. We will have to await the report because it will take some time for the commission to conduct its work.

I thank Mr. Rogers for his presentation. I appreciate that the committee is examining the humanitarian dimension of the Darfur crisis. Without putting a tooth on it, I wish to allude to the suggestion that the Americans are ratcheting up the crisis to move towards a possible regime change in Khartoum. Such a move would involve the attendant calamities we saw when the United States made a similar attempt at a regime change in Iraq. It is a political issue. I am aware that the Chair will keep a close watch as matters develop in the region. I humbly suggest that we look for a political response to events there at a future meeting of the committee as I do not wish to waste any further time. I am grateful for Mr. Rogers's presentation.

Does Mr. Rogers have any information on the two aid workers killed in northern Darfur yesterday? Can he give the committee some information on the circumstances in which they died?

Mr. Rogers

There are many mines in the area in which the two people concerned died. Apparently, their vehicle came into contact with a mine. It seems a number of others were injured. That is all we know.

Will the Minister of State clarify whether he cleared his public statement on the overseas development aid budget with the Taoiseach before he made it?

I think I answered that question. I do not know if the Deputy was present when I responded to Deputy Gregory's question on the matter. I made the statement in my own right as an expression of my belief that an element of realism needed to be introduced into the debate on overseas development aid. I spoke on the matter in response to Deputy Gregory.

The Minister of State did not clear his comments with the Taoiseach who initially made the commitment. Did the Minister of State decide to raise a question about the commitment——

I raised the issue——

——on the basis of the advice of officials or departmental advice?

I think it is fair to say that as the Minister of State with responsibility for this area, I make decisions as best I can. I think that is the best way to leave it.

Therefore, it is a policy change.

I do not believe it is. I think I said there had been no policy change. While we remain committed to achieving the target, we have to be humble, respectful and realistic enough to know that it may not be achieved. I am in a unique position as we face into the Estimates process. I hope to achieve the target during my time as Minister of State with responsibility for overseas development aid and human rights, but we have to be realistic. We have to put a plan in place. I always plan on the basis of success, but we have to plan for the possibility that it may not be achieved. As I said, we need to restore the situation which obtained until Deputy O'Donnell ceased to be Minister of State with responsibility for this area.

In order that all members can be realistic, will the Minister of State inform the committee what he considers to be "striking distance" from the 0.7% target?

The phrase "striking distance" is self-explanatory. The figure has to be achievable within a one or two year budgetary timeframe. I do not think it is realistic, for example, to argue that we can have a splurge of extra spending in the area of overseas development aid. We have to plan our approach in a proper and phased manner in order that we can achieve value for money.

Therefore, the Minister of State is not committed to reaching the 0.7% target by 2007.

I am. I think I have said — I do not want to repeat myself——

The Minister of State said he was committed to getting within "striking distance" of it.

I said it was one of the tasks I would set for myself. I have set myself the primary task of trying to achieve the target of 0.7%. It is welcome that Deputy O'Donnell and others have referred to the fact that the commitment was made by the Government. We have to try, might and main, to achieve it. I am not sliding away from the commitment — I am making the simple statement that the Government intends to try to achieve it. I am telling the committee in advance that it has to be realistic enough to understand that targets are sometimes not achieved. In fairness, I am trying to be honest with it, the public and NGOs in this regard.

I thank the Minister of State.

Does this whole charade——

We have to meet another group.

——reinforce the case for the proposal I have made?

Will the Deputy allow me to comment on the matter? He keeps jumping up and down — he should take it easy.

I have made a proposal.

Just take it easy.

We are upset.

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending this meeting. I appreciate that it is difficult for him to address the committee within a week of being appointed as Minister of State with responsibility for overseas development aid and human rights. I am sure he appreciates that he has had a good opportunity to listen to the views of the all-party joint committee which has a strong commitment to the achievement of the 0.7% target. All of the members who spoke during the meeting stressed their commitment to reaching the target.

I mentioned at the beginning of the meeting that the programme for Government which was updated in August 2004 contained a firm commitment to reaching the 0.7% target. The schedule for reaching it, set out in the peer review report, is more or less in line with the committee's proposal which will be made public. The programme for Government states the Government intends to "complete our major expansion of our overseas development aid programme, achieving the UN target of 0.7% of GNP by 2007". That commitment was reiterated by the Government as recently as August 2004. The programme breaks the commitment down and outlines the reasoning which underlies it. It states "the aid programme will be developed along the lines of the Ireland Aid Review Report with the principal aim being to contribute to the reduction of global poverty, inequality and exclusion". It then elaborates on that aim.

The programme for Government recommends that the target be achieved by 2007. It endorses the recommendations set out in the peer review report and states particular initiatives will be taken both in the aid programme and at the highest political level to fight the HIV-AIDS crisis which is ravaging many poorer countries, especially in Africa. The two Government parties issued that statement of intent as recently as August this year. The committee has agreed unanimously to invite the Taoiseach to attend one of its meetings, preferably its next one.

At that meeting members will make clear where they stand and emphasise the impor-tance of reaching the target.

All members, from all parties and both Houses, want that to happen. We wish the Minister of State every success in his work. I appreciate that he wants to achieve the 0.7% target. The committee will do all it can to ensure it is achieved. Again, I thank the Minister of State for his attendance. We are very much delayed following that very important discussion. Our next item is the presentation by Trócaire on the ongoing crisis in Darfur in western Sudan. We will suspend the meeting for a few minutes.

Sitting suspended at 4.30 p.m. and resumed at 4.37 p.m.
Barr
Roinn