Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 9 Nov 2004

Budget Targets for ODA: Presentation.

Last month this committee had a wide-ranging discussion with the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Conor Lenihan, regarding the level of resources to be allocated for development assistance in next year's Estimates and the issue of progression towards the UN target of 0.7% of GNP. Arising from that meeting, I wrote on behalf of the committee to the Taoiseach expressing our deep concern at the slowdown in the expansion of the ODA programme and at recent media reports that the attainment of the UN target by 2007 is no longer realistic. In his response, copies of which have been circulated to members, the Taoiseach confirmed that it is the Government's aim to reach the UN target. The Taoiseach also pointed out the following:

There are many arguments made about the money we are actually giving, the way we are giving it and whether it is going to the right organisations. We must increase the money but we must also ensure that we get value for it, that the regimes are in order and that the projects are in place. That is an issue. One cannot pour in the money without watching how it is controlled.

The Taoiseach also suggested that the committee should explore with Development Co-operation Ireland and the NGOs in particular their capacity to handle such a huge level of increased funding, and whether there are any logistical or management issues that need to be addressed before such further significant increases in resources are deployed by the Government in this area.

I responded to that letter on behalf of the committee and will quote two paragraphs from my response:

Dear Taoiseach,

You mentioned concerns expressed in the media and elsewhere about the way in which the money is allocated, the organisations that receive it, and the need to ensure that we get value for money, that the regimes are in order, that the projects are in place and that the money is controlled. I agree, provided those who express these concerns bear in mind the circumstances under which our agencies, NGOs, missionaries and volunteers are working. In most of these countries the available income per head is less than $1 per day. That is less than $365 per annum. Ours is over $36,000 per annum average per person. Many are suffering from absolute poverty, lack of even primary education and are devastated by HIV-AIDS, malnutrition, malaria and tuberculosis. As a joint committee we have visited projects in Zambia, Uganda, Ethiopia and South Africa and have met with Ministers, opposition parliamentarians, members of the press and the workers. I can assure you that in the joint committee's view, the control and management and accountability of funds is a prime consideration for all concerned. In this respect the work of Development Co-operation Ireland and of the ambassadors and heads of mission is exemplary. Expenditure by DCI is closely monitored, and audited accounts must be produced. While continuing vigilance is essential, it is clear that those involved are well on top of the work.

The second separate paragraph reads:

It is clear from the observations of the joint committee that in almost every project, the greatest shortage is that of money. The work to be done is vital. The work in progress is excellent. The difficulties and heartbreaking hardships abound. The workers in the field need more support and more resources. We cannot delay in giving that support. You will be aware that Timor Leste or formerly East Timor, and Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia have recently been added to the Government's priority countries for immediate aid. Additional resources must now be added if we are to have meaningful programmes in these countries without reducing the priority work in sub-Saharan Africa.

Those are excerpts from the two letters, copies of which have been distributed to committee members.

To facilitate the discussion which the Taoiseach requested, we have invited to today's meeting representatives from DCI, Dóchas, Concern, Trócaire, GOAL and the Irish Missionary Resource Service.

On a point of order, the fact that we are discussing the suggestion made by the Taoiseach with regard to value and spending of money does not in any way take from the unanimous position adopted by this committee, namely that the 0.7% target be achieved in 2007 and that the committee has called on the Government to implement its commitment. In other words, what follows is a methodological exercise which as the Chairman pointed out in his letter does not in any way take from the fact that we are taking the 0.7% target in 2007 as the given position.

Yes, that is true. I did not want to bore the meeting by reading the letter in full.

It is important that we understand this.

It is fully understood. Thank you.

On a point of order, before the Chairman invites our guests to speak, and lest I be considered rude, I have to go because Seanad proceedings start at 2.30 p.m. We have to open the shop and get ourselves ready. I hope to return before the meeting concludes.

I am afraid I am one of the shoppers.

Not the shopkeeper.

No. Senator O'Rourke is the shopkeeper.

Senator O'Rourke is Leader of the Seanad and must go.

I welcome to the meeting Mr. Ronan Murphy, the new director general of DCI, and I congratulate him on assuming this major, onerous and very important task. I also welcome his colleagues Mr. Frank Sheridan and Mr. Brendan Rogers; Mr. Hans Zomer, the director of Dóchas; Mr. Tom Arnold, chief executive of Concern; Mr. Eamonn Meehan, deputy director, Trócaire; Mr. John O'Shea, chief executive, GOAL and Sr. Noelle Corscaddon, chairperson of the Irish Missionary Resource Service. They are all very welcome.

Before we commence, I remind those present that while members are covered by privilege, others appearing before the committee are not. I ask the witnesses to limit their contributions to ten minutes, if possible. We will have plenty of time for discussion afterwards and then for a response to it. I invite Mr. Ronan Murphy to address the committee. He will be followed by Mr. Hans Zomer, Mr. Tom Arnold, Mr. Eamonn Meehan, Mr. John O'Shea and Sr. Noelle Corscaddon.

Mr. Ronan Murphy

I thank the Chairman for inviting me and my colleagues, Mr. Frank Sheridan and Mr. Brendan Rogers, whom many of the committee members know, to attend. We are glad to be here and to be sharing the podium with some of the leading figures from the NGO community in Ireland.

I am in this job only two months and this is my first time in many years to attend a meeting of this committee. It is nine years since I last worked in the development area. I look forward greatly to working with the Chairman and committee members.

I will be quite brief because as the Chairman said in his opening remarks, the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Conor Lenihan, has sent a letter to the Chairman. In that letter, which has been circulated, he sets out some thoughts on the exchange of correspondence to which the Chairman referred. The paragraph to which I want to draw attention is the one where the Minister of State states:

The Irish aid programme is a broad-based one with the capacity to deepen and broaden its bilateral engagement, its co-operative arrangements with the United Nations and the EU, its partnership with international and Irish NGOs.

As committee members are familiar with the shape of the Development Co-operation Ireland programme and with the component parts, I will not go into details. However, there are a few areas where there is enormous need and scope for significant expansion of the current programme. In the programme countries, where most of our bilateral effort is located, the existing partner countries could absorb more funding, and we would be building on an established partnership with them.

Second, as the Chairman mentioned, we are about to start a programme of co-operation with Vietnam. A delegation is going out in a few weeks to set that up. That programme will also enable us to help two other very poor neighbouring countries, Laos and Cambodia. The committee is aware of the great needs in the region, and it will be an important new area for us.

Next, we intend to examine the possibility of more long-term co-operation with countries in west Africa. In the new year, we will be opening an aid office in Sierra Leone, which will also offer scope for assistance to Liberia where, as everyone is aware, our peacekeeping troops are stationed. Another area for which I feel there may be scope is the countries in sub-Saharan Africa other than those where we already have programmes in place. We will have to explore that in the context of expanded funding.

As the committee is aware, the HIV-AIDS problem is not only a human tragedy; it is also setting back Africa's development by years, if not decades. We have increased our funding to combat it significantly, but the needs are substantial and there is plenty of scope for giving more in the area. Emergency and recovery assistance, the areas for which Mr. Rogers is responsible, are always in high demand, and there is never enough funding to meet it. By their nature, it is not easy to predict where emergencies will arise. However, we can be sure that there will be plenty of demand on the money in that area, and more funding would therefore be very welcome. Our contributions to the UN, EU and other multilateral organisations, while larger than in the past, can also be further expanded.

In most areas that I have mentioned, the role of non-governmental organisations, NGOs, is crucial. Approximately 20% of our total activities are implemented through them, making them vital partners for the programme, as is the missionary community, which we will continue to regard in that way. I envisage that, with the expanded money for ODA, the NGOs will also expect to receive significantly expanded funding. We should also examine an area that we may not have considered very much recently, namely, that of the smaller NGOs and the individuals who help the developing world. There are certain ways in which we may be able to look more creatively at how to help them in their endeavours. That is an outline of where there is clear scope, as the Minister said in his letter, for significant expansion. There has been a great deal of expansion over the past 15 years. Colleagues will know that the biggest phase was from 1999 to 2002. Those funds have been put to good use, and I am confident that further funding would also be put to good use and be absorbed effectively.

On the staffing front, we have an organigram which might help the committee see what we are doing. It has already been circulated. My main point is that, when a programme expands, more human resources are needed to implement it. It is not simply the knee-jerk reaction of a bureaucrat who says that he needs more staff. It is quite clear, as the Ireland Aid review pointed out, that, as the programme expands, more staffing and human resources are needed to implement it. The report in 2002 made several recommendations on staffing, the most notable of which was that the staffing of the division should keep pace with an expanding budget.

Personnel numbers have increased from 75 before the review to more or less double that figure today. When the DAC peer review took place in 2003, the levels were 143. Today I can update that figure and say that we have 153 staff, of whom 123 are at headquarters and 30 in the field. I am speaking about diplomatic officers and development specialists who are expert in their area. There is also a fair number of locally recruited staff with whom we work in the field. The organigram is a good way of demonstrating the growth that has taken place in recent years. When I left the programme in 1995, we had four heads of section; today we have ten. I very much welcome the fact that there are an evaluation and audit unit and a strong technical unit under Dr. Vincent O'Neill. I certainly felt that those areas should be strengthened, and that has happened.

Nevertheless, as I mentioned, further expansion will raise the issue of expanding staff levels in line with the recommendation of the Ireland Aid review. The advisory board referred to that when it met the Sub-committee on Development Co-operation last week. Arising from that, the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Conor Lenihan, has asked the advisory board if it will take on the task of examining the staffing of the development co-operation division in the context of an expanding programme. We have also begun our own discussions, as would be natural, within the Department of Foreign Affairs, and with the Department of Finance, which we intend to meet. We will be emphasising to it the high-risk factor in the kind of work that we do in development co-operation, where public money is dispersed to organisations, individuals and governments in the developing world. It has to be monitored closely, and that requires proper staffing levels.

The aid programme is of very high quality. I thought that when I worked here before, and in the period since it has expanded in a very sound way. The expansion in staffing and expertise has been achieved efficiently. As we expand further, we will need more resources. I hope that I can do my part to help steer the programme wisely as it expands further in the period ahead. I will be happy to answer any questions that members may have.

Thank you. Mr. Hans Zomer is the director of Dóchas.

Mr. Hans Zomer

I thank the committee for once again giving us an opportunity to discuss the important issue of the Irish aid programme. We appreciate its continued support and interest in our issues and its adopting the resolution mentioned supporting reaching the target by 2007, as is Government policy. I thank the Chairman for his correspondence with the Taoiseach, in which he made a very convincing case for upholding the commitment.

Today we have been invited to discuss the obstacles and potential for growth in the Irish aid programme. The long and the short of the answer is that there are several obstacles, but in a situation where 1.2 billion people are below the poverty line there ought to be scope for growth in the Irish development aid programme. The obstacles to growth are more on the domestic front, for example, the absence hitherto of a clear growth strategy on the part of the Government for the overseas aid programme, making it difficult for those in Development Co-operation Ireland to develop a longer-term strategy rather than having to deal with the aid programme annually. The director general of DCI also mentioned staffing levels. For us, they are clearly a concern. If the aid programme grows, staffing levels must keep pace with them. I also point out the insecurity that we have discussed with the committee regarding the aid programme's future in the shape of the threatened relocation of DCI to Limerick, which in our view would cause a great upset to the management and quality of the programme.

I will return to the question at hand. The UN estimates that, for the international community to reach the targets that it has set itself, the so-called "millennium development goals", additional aid funding of approximately $50 billion annually is necessary. We feel that it is important that Ireland play a role in ensuring that those additional funds are made available. The international community has agreed on eight millennium development targets, only one of which can directly be influenced by the Irish Government, namely, providing the resources for initiatives to fight poverty. The targets are not particularly ambitious. The aim set for us is to halve poverty by 2015, and the best way for Ireland to contribute to that in the short term is at least to ensure funding be made available for efforts to combat poverty.

According to our calculations a growth rate to the tune of 0.7% by 2007 would mean around €180 million a year extra. That could go to a number of areas and the director general has indicated some of them. By way of example, I will mention a few, such as the vaccination of children against an ordinary disease like measles. The estimated cost per child is 26 US cents. Surely €180 million could go a long way in terms of providing vaccinations on a global scale. The case is similar as regards the provision of primary education across the globe, which the UN estimates at a cost of €38 billion a year. Then there is the prevention and provision of treatment and care for those affected by AIDS-HIV. On an annual basis the shortfall in the global fund for AIDS-HIV, malaria and TB is an estimated €5 billion.

The director general also spoke about the potential growth in DCI's relationship with the NGOs and the UN agencies. In order to deal with this in a more strategic and structured way, a longer term plan is needed. We are pleased that in the last couple of weeks the Government has clearly recommitted itself to the 0.7% of GNP target by 2007. We realise there is cross-party backing for this decision, with all the major parties and the Independent Deputies in the Oireachtas supporting the Government. In other words, there is no political obstacle to this target being reached. Furthermore, by adopting in full the recommendations of the Ireland Aid review, the Government bought into a strategy for growth in the coming years. A number of the recommendations in the Ireland Aid report still await full implementation. Some of those are listed in the submission that I hope has been made available to members of the committee. A full implementation of the Ireland Aid review report would ensure no practical obstacles to the policy of reaching the 0.7% target by 2007.

In conclusion, we are only nine days away from the publication of the 2005 Estimates. It seems all the ingredients for a significant decision in line with this committee's recommendations are in place. What is needed is the political will to make them happen.

My understanding is that the figure this year is €479.63 million. If one takes the rounded figure of €480 million and extrapolates a present day value for each of the years, it becomes a matter of €180 million per annum. I was just playing around with the figures while Mr. Zomer was talking.

One gets 0.39%.

It is either 0.39% or 0.4%. We can come back to that, afterwards. Our next speaker is Mr. Tom Arnold, chief executive of Concern.

Mr. Tom Arnold

There is much common ground on this side and I will try not to be repetitive as regards what Mr. Zomer has already said. An important starting point was provided by Deputy Michael D. Higgins's intervention at the beginning. He indicated that the committee was quite clear about the political objective here and what this meeting should be about is how the target is to be achieved. I do not want to reiterate the sequence of commitments that have been made since the original one was adopted in 2000. However, if this commitment is not met it will represent an obvious public breach of faith, both with the Irish electorate and the wider international community.

I do not believe the commitment should be seen just in political terms. A more tangible measure is the impact which meeting the commitment would have on the lives of literally millions of people. This impact must be seen at two levels. The Chairman has just done the calculation. If this commitment is to be made what we are effectively looking at is a doubling of the Irish aid programme over two years. It effectively means increasing the annual spend from approximately €500 million in round numbers to about €1,000 million. Much can be done with the additional €500 million to tackle poverty. There is no question that to expand spending on that scale represents a significant challenge. Nobody should minimise the importance of the scale of that challenge. However, it is important to recognise, as the Chairman said, that we are starting from a high quality aid programme. It is high quality in terms of its accountability mechanisms and the impact it is making on the ground.

There are plenty of ways in which this aid programme may be expanded and Mr. Murphy of DCI has set out the headlines under which this can be done. One of them, obviously, is to increase the number of priority or programme countries. Many people will acknowledge that there is good reason to expand in certain parts of Asia. However, we also need to keep clearly focused on the fact that the core poverty problem in the world today is in sub-Saharan Africa. It will continue to be sub-Saharan Africa and that definitely has to be the primary focus of the aid programme in the future. I will deal further with the NGO capacity later. The Ireland Aid review was mentioned. I had the honour to be a member of that working group. A key recommendation of the review was the idea that if the programme was to expand the staffing to be provided should also expand with it. There was a specific recommendation that there should be an annual review of the staffing needs of the programme. To the best of my knowledge, that has not happened over recent years. It is of considerable interest that the advisory committee has been asked to look at staffing needs. If there is to be, as one would anticipate, a significant increase in the budgetary provision for aid next year, in the coming budget, the urgency of getting that review completed is of paramount importance, as is the recommendation that the matter be kept under review on an annual basis.

Mr. Zomer mentioned the concern about the decentralisation move. I am on record as saying Concern has considerable apprehension on this issue. To achieve an expansion of the programme on the scale we are talking about will be difficult. That difficulty, I fear, will be substantially increased if decentralisation goes ahead. It is a basic issue this committee and the Government will have to consider.

The second dimension in achieving the 0.7% target is wider. This also has been referred to by Mr. Zomer and it refers to the wider context and set of responsibilities Ireland has in terms of itself contributing to moving towards achievement of the millennium development goals and in influencing other countries to do likewise. We have seen an increase in the level of aid flows over the last couple of years, from approximately €50 billion in 2003 to €68 billion. That is still a long way from what is required to achieve the goals.If all of the OECD countries were to achieve 0.7%, admittedly a rather faint hope at the moment, the amount of money thereby generated would be of the order of $200 billion. That would begin to make serious inroads into the problems of poverty. Ireland's moral authority to advocate for other countries to push up their aid levels, which is directly linked to whether it achieves the 0.7% target itself, is of crucial importance. If the members of the OECD devoted an extra 0.01% of GNP to aid, it would be the equivalent of $25 billion. That is what is at stake when one considers the wider issue. It must be understood in very simple terms that the countries we are dealing with are caught in a profound poverty trap and are not able to get out of it without sustained and substantial external assistance. I gave an example on a radio interview this morning when I compared what we in Ireland are spending on the health service, which is $2,500per capita, which gives rise to much controversy, and what is spent in Ethiopia, which is $10 per head. In per capita terms, we are spending 250 times more on our health service than Ethiopia can afford to spend. If one is to start tackling the problem of getting countries out of the poverty trap, there must be a realisation that sustained and substantial aid flows will be required. Ireland can play its part in doing that but it can also play its part in encouraging other people to do it as well.

It is perfectly legitimate for the Taoiseach to ask this committee and the wider development community about the issue of capacity. We must accept that the highest standards of accountability are required, whether in terms of financial accountability or the development impact of the programmes which are operated, either under an official aid programme or programmes operated by non governmental organisations. I cannot speak for the overall NGO sector, but I will outline Concern's experience in the past number of years.

In the six years from 1998 to 2003, Concern has increased the number of countries it is working in from 18 to 28 and its overseas expenditure has increased from €26 million in 1998 to €83 million in 2003. Concern has increased its capacity to help the poorest people. That expansion did not happen by accident. It was based on a sustained and systematic investment in building internal capacity as an organisation right across the board from emergencies, logistics, financial and accountability systems and core competencies, health, education, livelihoods and HIV-AIDS. I acknowledge the contribution which DCI's MAPS programme has made since it was introduced almost two years ago. It has provided not only additional flexibility and predictability when it comes to funding, which is of significant value when it comes to the capacity to plan, but it has helped Concern to focus in dialogue with DCI on the quality of the programme. The capacity that has been built up in recent years is the platform on which Concern — I suspect it will apply to other agencies — will be able to spend more resources which may become available.

The two most obvious areas for increase are for an expansion of the emergencies programme and the MAPS programme. We would only suggest doing so, respecting certain principles of prudent financial management, which we regard as important and I have spelled out in the submission, that Concern is not too dependent on Government funding as opposed to private funding, which is important in terms of independence and speed of response or as between governments, whereby we do not want any single government to be the predominant funder of Concern's programmes.

I very much welcome this dialogue and I hope it will give rise to firm decisions in the Estimates next week.

Mr. Eamonn Meehan

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to Trócaire to participate in this discussion. I will give a brief outline on Trócaire and the issue of capacity in the light of the availability of increased resources as well as making additional points that are relevant to the discussion.

At the end of Trócaire's last financial year, up to the end of February 2004, it spent €39 million on development projects and humanitarian assistance. These resources were expended in many parts of the world, in Central and South America, Africa and in parts of Asia. About 600 different development and humanitarian projects and programmes were supported. Of the €39 million, about €15.4 million came from DCI, the Irish Government's development co-operation programme. If we take ODA assistance from a position of 0.4% and scale it up to 0.7% of GNP, it would mean that Trócaire would be asked to deal with between €27 million and €28 million from Development Co-operation Ireland. That is quite a considerable amount of money and there are issues around accountability at the heart of it. Every year Trócaire is forced to turn down very good projects that request development assistance in key areas because of insufficient resources. Even though Trócaire has considerable resources at its disposal, it is not enough and it believes it is in a position to handle additional resources should they become available.

There are a number of strategic areas in which Trócaire would use these resources, in the area of livelihood security and the improvement of livelihoods for people in the poorest countries, particularly in Africa, which is vitally important. Trócaire could expand and increase its HIV-AIDS programme. The response to emergencies and post-emergency recovery is critically important and there is capacity there.

Additional resources could be used to build the capacity of local civil society in countries in the south and Trócaire believes that local civil society has an important role to play in reducing poverty. Building quality programmes, monitoring impact of development programmes, is underfunded and additional resources could be utilised in this area. Additional resources could be used in the area of innovation. Because there is always pressure on resources, it is quite difficult to find resources for innovative programmes, new programmes, or programmes that may not have been attempted or tried before. This is a critically important area to resource. The central issue for Trócaire is the need for clarity about what is happening in the next few years. Trócaire needs a predictable growth path and it needs to ensure this happens so that proper planning and management of resources can take place. It has already been said, but I wish to reiterate that the partnership with DCI is very important and this partnership has developed significantly during the past four or five years.

The MAPS programme is an excellent foundation for what can be achieved between DCI and the NGOs going forward. Within Trócaire, staff is completing a review of its aid delivery mechanism and is reviewing the field office structure, use of local people to accompany staff and the use of programme officers in the main office in Ireland. Trócaire will shortly commence a review of its management structure and the staff capacity in Trócaire in general. Both of these are timely exercises. While it is important for Trócaire to maintain a balance between official funding and fundraising directly from the public, it is ready to take up the challenge and do what is necessary in order to deliver on its responsibilities. While Trócaire has accountability responsibilities, it also has responsibilities to the poorest people in the developing world.

There are a few other issues which are larger than the issue of Trócaire and capacity and to which I would like to refer briefly. The NGOs obviously have a role to play in an expanded aid programme and in supporting that. It is our view that is not the central or most critical issue. Even if the NGOs were not able to take on additional resources, or it was decided that the NGOs were in receipt of sufficient resources, there is still an obligation on us, by virtue of commitments which we have made, to increase the bilateral and multilateral programmes. Some of the key elements of the DCI programme have already been mentioned but they are worth echoing. The programme is poverty focused and is not tied. It is managed by a competent and professional staff and all of this is a solid foundation for growth in the programme.

I would like to make two points on the issue of increased resources. In April 2004, the World Bank and the IMF indicated in a publication that an extra €30 billion can be absorbed effectively and efficiently by developing countries immediately. This rises to €50 billion in the medium term of two to three years. That is very useful information in the context in which we are discussing an increase of our own programme. In another joint publication in September 2003, the two bodies stated that Ethiopia could effectively use twice its current level of aid and this would allow Ethiopia to achieve the millennium development goals on poverty reduction, school enrolment, clean water and sanitation and on reducing the increase in HIV and AIDS. There is also a significant unmet capacity within the field of humanitarian assistance, in terms of Irish NGOs and also in terms of UN agencies. The capacity of DCI certainly needs to be enhanced and extra staff are required for a quality programme to be maintained. As has been said, this has been recommended by the development assistance committee of the OECD in its last two peer reviews of DCI.

I would like to echo the comments made by Hans Zomer and Tom Arnold on the move to Limerick. This may cause some difficulties in expanding the capacity of DCI.

The special session of the UN General Assembly in 2000 was the launch pad for a new global initiative to tackle absolute poverty. Many of us argue that this does not go far enough, but it is still historic. Many Governments are responding to this call. I would like to highlight the British Government and its Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, who has led a number of initiatives on this, in particular his international financing facility initiative. While there are issues around this initiative, it is an attempt to double the resources available for international development. Ireland has been in a leadership position on this issue in recent years and Trócaire believes that we must not falter at this point. We have the resources, the structures and the people to deliver this expanded aid programme. NGOs can and will play a part in this, yet it is still about the political will to meet the challenge and to deliver on our promises.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to say a few words. From my limited experience, getting aid to the poorest of the poor on the planet is one of the hardest things to do. It requires an extraordinary commitment and dedication and above all, a love of the poor. The sad thing is that we have failed. There is no one in this room who has the answer to the problems in the Third World and no one can stand up and say that they have done a great job. We have all buried more than we have saved in all the tragedies in which we have worked. The international community, as an entity, has failed the most vulnerable people on the planet and we need to be aware of that before we come out with all our great suggestions and recommendations.

Having said that, I remember coming out of Bidoa in Somalia in 1992 on an American cargo plane that had just deposited some food there. There was only one other guy on it and he was a doctor and a member of the Arab League. He asked me where I came from and when I told him he said that we were the caring nation. It was the most profound thing ever said to me by anybody outside my own gang in the Third World. It proved to me that the work of the Irish missionaries and of the aid community to a lesser extent had actually made an impact. We had left our mark on the poorest places in the world because of this love which is so essential. We are ideally placed to be the catalyst and I am afraid that this obsession with reaching a UN target will force us all to take our eye off the ball. I have no problem with money going to the Third World. I want to see billions going to where it can do most good. Ireland can box way above its weight and this is not its weight. We are capable of doing much more. I will not be happy until I see the Taoiseach being a champion of the poor nations, so that we have a voice where it counts. Writing a cheque does not give us a voice. Showing moral courage gives us a voice and that is why I am less concerned about whether we reach this target than any other. If we reach this target and decide that this is all we can do, then we have lost out on something that I believe we are capable of doing. It will not cost us much money and it will save the lives of billions and will put us in a position where we can influence other Governments, because what is small can often be more powerful.

I have no great respect for the United Nations. Why should we worry about a target the UN sets? I do not understand why we have to dance to its tune. I have lived long enough to realise that most targets are never met. They are aspirational and people get excited about them. At the end of the day, it does not put food in the mouths of starving people. I want DCI, the Irish Government and NGOs to look very closely at how we are spending our own money. Are we satisfied that dealing with corrupt Governments is the best way of getting aid to the poor? I do not know the answer. I cannot come along and tell the committee what is the best way. However, we should ask ourselves this question, because there is much evidence that the Third World is endemically and institutionally corrupt. Last year alone, $150 billion went out of Africa through the corrupt practices of African Governments. Tom Arnold spoke about the extra $100 million granted. I defer to Mr. Arnold, as I would love to see that money go to people who need it, but what about the $150 billion? Is there a single person on the planet at the top table who cares about corruption? The answer is "No". Ireland can be that nation. It has to look very closely at where we are getting value for money. We have to pay attention to what Amnesty International and international agencies that deal with the corruption issue have to say. We have to investigate their findings in the same way as if we were running a business. When we are satisfied that some country is totally corrupt and that we should not be dealing with it, we then have to have the moral courage to look into the eyes of the president of that country and tell him we are not dealing with him. If the top is rotten, it is extraordinarily difficult to get aid out there. It does not matter how many accountants are sent out and we could ask John Rusnik about that. If someone is corrupt, he or she will find a way. We are in a moral position to go after other nations and ask them to do the same. If we are able to make inroads into the corruption business, then we truly will have done something meaningful to help the poor of the Third World.

People should listen to what George Soros has to say about sending aid into the Third World. He stated that dealing with corrupt Governments is exacerbating the situation. What is needed is not a bureaucratic approach but an entrepreneurial one. One has to be extraordinarily clever and astute to get aid past those who want to steal from one.

A major issue arises in this regard which, hopefully, will be dealt with by the Government. We can of course absorb the money, aspire to the 0.7% target and go to countries with a relatively stable government to spend the money. However, is this helping the poorest of the poor? Let us consider the position on the map. It would not matter if one was to throw €10 trillion at northern Uganda, Congo or Darfur because it would not save a single life. What is needed is protection for the vulnerable, the poorest of the poor and the aid community. Is anybody doing anything about this? The answer is "No". Reaching a target of 0.7% will not help the millions caught up in that tragedy.

We are a small nation with a tradition of great concern and love for the poor among missionaries, the aid community and the Irish people. They are not caught up with figures but want the money to reach those in greatest need. As we speak, the three countries mentioned are the ones which need aid most.

The only way to do something about this is by being in a position where we are the voice of the Third World and where we can attend the United Nations to ask for protection for the people of Darfur, northern Uganda and Congo. Congo has suffered for eight years while nobody cares about the death of 5 million people there. We continue to help the governments which send armies to kill and rob. These are far bigger issues than whether we reach a target. While I am not saying it is not important that we reach targets from time to time, we might take the eye off the ball when there is great potential in this country for doing something far more significant.

I thank Development Co-operation Ireland for its help over the years, which was and will continue to be important. The GOAL organisation is probably three times the size it was some years ago. We spend approximately €55 million per annum and work in some 13 countries. Because we have a good record and tradition and have done the business, we are respected by major governments such as those of the United States and Britain and, believe it or not, by the United Nations and the European Union.

While we would probably be in a position to absorb more support, there is a caveat to this of which we must be aware. I mentioned that to get aid to the poor, one must have certain qualities. It is becoming more difficult to find people with those qualities. This does not surprise me because it is now very dangerous to work in the Third World. Aid workers are being killed and kidnapped. I find it difficult to agree to send people to areas where there is a risk to their lives. If we do not have quality people, we will not take on projects no matter how much money we are offered and, unless we can deliver a quality service, we will not take the money.

With corruption as it is, it is necessary to have staff with eyes in every part of their bodies. Not as many people of the quality we need pass through our hands as was the case previously. This is a real worry for the poor of the Third World and for organisations such as GOAL, and I hope it is a matter on which Development Co-operation Ireland can help us. However, we cannot force people to risk their lives in Darfur. Last week, I had to send three helicopters — I like saying it that way, but, in fact, the UN sent the helicopters — to airlift 12 staff who were felt to be in mortal danger. We would not get good marks if we failed to do this and 12 of our staff were blown to smithereens.

This is the seriousness of our work in the Third World and we are very concerned about such issues. I am not saying the other issue is not one which should give us pause for thought but we cannot expect to respond to every tragedy on the planet if there is a shortage of quality people and if the international community is not prepared to send peacekeepers to places such Congo, northern Uganda and Darfur. GOAL, as an aid agency that wants to help those in greatest need, must ask itself whether it will be able to do this in the future. If we do not do it, I do not know who will.

Sr. Noelle Corscaddon

I thank the committee for the opportunity to attend on behalf of our missionaries. The Irish Missionary Resource Service is a new company formed by the Irish Missionary Union to be the development agency for our missionaries. It has approximately 70 member organisations. Before the meeting, I consulted with Rev. Patrick Comerford, the southern regional co-ordinator of Church Mission Society Ireland, the principal mission and development agency for the Church of Ireland. I speak on behalf of its missionaries and those of the Irish Missionary Resource Service. Both organisations are official partners of the Government in providing aid overseas. I am grateful to speak on behalf of Irish missionary men and women, lay and religious, and their counterparts who work worldwide to alleviate poverty and to serve the poorest of the poor.

Our 70 plus member organisations each have their own mandates and charism. In effect, we have 800 missionaries working in over 40 countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America. Our missionaries also include lay volunteers who go abroad for two or three years and we also facilitate the recruitment of short-term lay volunteers, a project greatly promoted by the previous Minister of State.

Irish missionaries have a long tradition of providing service to our fellow human beings — we have done so for over 200 years, including in times of famine and civil war in Ireland. We do so because we believe we have a moral obligation to be the voice for the voiceless and to serve the poor. Our missionaries often remain nameless and faceless to those at home but to the people in the African village who need water, to the girls who receive education, to the mother who brings her sick baby to the missionary hospital, they are the face of kindness and caring, and the face of Ireland. We can provide this caring Ireland to our world because Ireland cares.

In 2002 the Ireland Aid review recommended changes within the structures of the IMU and we have taken these on board, setting up a new company, the Irish Missionary Resource Service, to facilitate greater collaboration with Development Co-operation Ireland. We are grateful for the support of DCI, not just financially but also in regard to the professional skills needed to provide more efficient and sustainable services. In 2004, the Irish Missionary Resource Service received €11 million from the Government through DCI. We are grateful for this funding, which has provided and improved health services, education, skills training, rehabilitation of refugees and agriculture and HIV/AIDS projects. It has improved the lives of the people of Africa, Asia and Latin America.

Realistically, however, it is a drop in the ocean. If one were to divide €11 million equally among our 70 member organisations each organisation would receive approximately €160,000, not even the price of a house in Dublin or anywhere in Ireland, yet we must still provide services. The Catholic Medical Bureau in Uganda recently provided statistics which show that missionaries in Uganda provide 40% of the Ugandan health services. In India, the Government is consulting with an Irish missionary group to help it to reach the millennium development goal of providing primary education for all by 2015.

We accept and recognise that, while we have the foundation in place to provide services and the people in the field to do so, there are some issues regarding our structures. The Irish Missionary Resource Service has been set up to deal with these issues. We are collaborating closely with DCI and developing a strategic plan for the company. We are involved in the capacity-building of our member organisations and look forward to the possibility of developing a multi-annual agreement with DCI in 2006. There has been and continues to be a concerted effort and a genuine commitment on our part to build on our organisational development and to provide more effective and sustainable development. We have effective partnership and counterpart structures in place in those areas where we work, which are the remotest of remote places.

In July of this year, I had the opportunity to visit the extremely remote diocese of Rumbek in southern Sudan. There is a small cluster of missionaries working in this diocese, which is geographically the size of Italy and has a population of 3.8 million. There are two secondary schools in this diocese, which accommodate three female pupils. It is an incredible statistic in today's world that there are only three girls attending secondary school in southern Sudan. However, there are Irish and other missionaries working there to provide education and to set up the supporting structures.

Irish missionaries are recognised worldwide. There is not a town or parish in Ireland that does not have some connection with an Irish missionary group. We have the support of the Irish people. How can we tell the woman in Karagwe in Tanzania, however, that we cannot provide medicine for her dying child because there is not enough money? How can we tell the girls in Sudan that there can be no education for them because there are insufficient resources and because our Government is not committed to helping them?

I speak on behalf of the missionaries of our country, but mainly on behalf of the poor of our world, those who are voiceless and weak, including the men, women and children who are dying from HIV and AIDS. While I welcome the commitment of this committee to the target of 0.7 % in foreign aid, I urge the Government to endorse this commitment. This should not be a political issue. It is, rather, a moral and humanitarian one. We cannot underestimate the effect this will have on the rest of our world. It represents a chance for Ireland to provide leadership internationally and I urge the Government to do so.

It is clear from what has been said that everybody here is concerned with caring and the organisations who are represented today are playing a significant role in that regard. The work is undertaken in a modern, sophisticated and responsible manner. There is a view also that we can develop the capacity that is needed. Everybody sees Ireland as having a significant role in this area, particularly in the sense of a responsibility to provide moral leadership. Committee members can confirm this from the meetings they have attended internationally and their visits on the ground. I emphasise the reality of the solid and sound work that is being done.

The issue of corruption has been raised many times and the committee is attempting to discover some possible solutions. Mr. O'Shea spoke about high-level corruption and I have a suggestion to make in this regard. The World Bank has said that it recently appealed to countries, notwithstanding the corruption which is quite widespread there at both a high and low level. The bank maintains that this is the only approach and that good governance must be fostered and developed. Some of the money which DCI administers is going now to improving governance. We have met with the people who are trying to do this, despite the existence of others who are working against their best efforts.

Mr. O'Shea mentioned Transparency International, which issued a report recently. This group works to identify the image and impression of corruption in different countries and it takes its information from the banks, the IMF, and other organisations working in the field. Transparency International concluded that corruption was rampant in 60 countries out of the 146 with which it dealt. It discovered that the public sector in these countries was plagued by the incidence of bribery. It also concluded that the poorest countries, most of which are in the bottom half of the index, are in the greatest need of support in fighting corruption.

Incidentally, Ireland, Belgium and the United States were jointly ranked No. 17, based on the perceived level of corruption. At a recent conference which committee members attended, I pointed to some of the countries which occupy the higher rankings, including Switzerland at No. 7, Britain at No. 11, and others which I will not name. The reality is that this is where that money goes. I observed at the conference that there are three groups involved, especially with regard to high-level corruption, including the person who takes the bribe, the person who gives it, and the person who banks it. That money is going into the banks in Switzerland, Britain, and elsewhere.

As I have observed before, we have taken great action in the past, as a consequence of recommendations made by a select committee of the Dáil, in tackling drug barons through what is now quite a sophisticated system with which the banks are co-operating. I pointed out at a recent EU meeting that we should be able to take this type of approach to an EU level. If money can be parked like this, the situation will continue. This is one approach that came to my mind when Mr. O'Shea mentioned the problems of corruption.

I join the Chairman in welcoming the representatives of the different organisations. Their evidence is valuable as it comes from field experience. I understand that it is sometimes frustrating to be in possession of what are the appalling facts and to feel so hopeless about swimming against the tide. I met Mr. O'Shea in Bidoa and, as I recall, his jeep flew past me and covered me in dust.

I apologise to the Deputy. I believe the Kerry football team was playing against Galway at the time.

Mr. O'Shea was in a race with the president at the time. It is important, as we hear this evidence, to realise that there does not have to be a choice between one type of activity and another. I am glad that the emphasis is on Africa because the gaze has shifted from that continent internationally and in the literature, both theoretical and applied. The situation there is not better than before, and there are serious and hidden reasons for this. Figures from the late 1990s show new speculative investment is going to China. Each year, ten times more money is invested in China than in the entire African continent.

The three contextual factors are trade, aid and debt. If Africa increased its share of world exports by 1%, it would reduce poverty there by 12%. If developing countries, most of which are in Africa, increased their share of trade by 5%, it would be worth $350 billion, which is seven times the aid budget. None of us should speak of aid while ignoring the powerful contextual factors regarding trade.

We frequently ignore what is happening with regard to money. In the last five years of the 1990s, speculative investment increased sixfold. Money flies through stock exchanges every day. One week's speculative money equals a full year's trade. Some members previously made the case that token tax would have been helpful. These are powerful contextual matters.

We often think that an increase in aid to Africa will solve its problems. There is an outflow of people from Africa. Between 1985 and 1990, 60,000 doctors and engineers left the African continent. It has been abandoned economically, socially and culturally by the rest of the world and left to die. Approximately 20,000 qualified people leave each year. Total GDP of the 48 poorest countries, with a combined population of 600 million, is equivalent to that of Belgium, which has a population of 10 million.

Some say that even if we achieve the target of 0.7% of GNP, the money will have nowhere to go. However, it could be spent in many different ways, including the provision of universal primary education, examples of which I, the Chairman and others have witnessed. I acknowledge the problem of fraud and appreciate the concern regarding it. However, I would not delay one day of primary education for any child, whether it takes place under a mango tree or the school must be built brick by brick. It is possible to do this and still address the question of corruption. This is where I differ from others.

How can Nigeria increase its oil exports this year to €20 billion and yet still fall two or three places in the UNDP index? Where does the money go? The IMF attempted to prop up Yeltsin during a time of enormous transition in Russian oil production, but the average income in many regions still fell. It is a similar situation.

I have not yet read a single article about the poor pensioners of Enron. That scandal is greater in scale and consequence than most scandals in the developing world in the past ten years. The person principally responsible for the Enron scandal is extremely close to the White House.

Money is flying out of Africa. Total foreign investment in South Africa is exceeded by the amount of money which comes out of the country. At some point we must discuss this issue. South Africa is responsible for 40% of the GDP I mentioned and Nigeria is responsible for 11%. There is a leak in capital funds from a country which desperately needs them. Some 40% of those with wealth in Africa have invested it outside the continent. Africa is a continent which has been abandoned to die.

With regard to commitments on the issue of HIV, the millennium development target is just under 50% of what is needed. The shortfall is immense. One could dispose of 0.7% of GNP towards that issue.

Those of us in favour of the target of 0.7% by 2007 are not ignoring any of the contextual factors. One would not have credibility if one ran a campaign for 0.7% while ignoring factors of trade, investment and aid problems. However, achieving the goal should not be a stopping point. Sweden is shifting its goal to 1% in the next year or two. Consciousness of such targets is moving towards recognition of the structural reforms needed. However, it is not a substitute. If exports were increased by 5%, it would result in an extra €350 billion, seven times the amount of aid. Neither I nor Mr. O'Shea tires of reaming out figures again and again. I am not fooling anybody. Unless there are structural changes in those areas, there will be a repeat of circumstances.

There is not a shadow of substance to the suggestion that the 0.7% of GNP cannot be spent wisely and accountably. There is nothing to support the suggestion that because the review bodies report on staff was not implemented we should not reach the target of 0.7% in case it might not be spent. If one followed that logic, one would be exposed as a fraud. We should say this before the Estimates are published. We should increase the staff to enable the implementation of the internationally given commitment.

Not only is it riskier for volunteers than before, it is also harder. When the advisory committee met with the sub-committee on development co-operation last week, I asked where APSO had gone. I was told it is still there but called something else. If one rings the Department, people will sometimes answer that APSO is looking after the missionaries and the IMRS and other similar organisations. People ask me if there is such a thing as APSO any more. It is like the Holy Ghost. I only know there are hundreds of young qualified people contacting Deputies and Senators. These people have the best qualifications of all, perhaps not practical skills but a great breadth of humanity, and an ability to manage people in conditions of deep distress, such as the Somalian famine. They find it much more difficult. How can the amount of activity be doubled while at the same time there are more barriers to people getting in on the ground?

The target of 0.7% of GNP for development aid is a solemnly given international commitment. The next kite to be flown in the coming week is that in Europe the average is 0.39% and that we are doing better than our European confreres. The answer is that we are not yet up there with Sweden and why should we encourage the others to go in the wrong direction? That is the way to look at that logic. It will also undoubtedly be suggested that we should examine the gross figures. That is to insult our intelligence. Even those of us who went to school a very long time ago know how to calculate percentages.

The real breakthrough will come when the good work being done by the NGOs is supported by a co-ordinated approach, through the Department of Finance in relation to the IMF, through the WTO in relation to trade.

Let us also have a public discussion on fraud, which was mentioned by John O'Shea. Who started the fraud in Nigerian oil and who paid the price? Who are the people who were executed by people who were working for oil companies? Where did the bribes start? I would love some well-informed person in some academic institution in Ireland to publish a book on fraud in the oil industry, to follow fraud in the oil industry and in politics. That is what should be done. Then we could get somewhere. There is a suggestion, which I find offensive, that somehow or another on a continent that is dying there is some kind of genetic or cultural predisposition towards fraud. That suggestion is offensive and wrong. Fraud is just one of those cosy outfalls of modern, unaccountable multinational corporations and capitalists.

I compliment the organisations on their presentations. They have all done tremendous work in developing countries, most of which they have told us about from time to time. However, we can only surmise regarding a great deal of it, because of the magnitude of the task.

I do not believe it is true that people do not care, as John O'Shea said. I believe they do care. However, because of the magnitude of the task they face, they often get discouraged. That discouragement may be perceived as apathy or lack of concern.

On the question of aid in Africa, I fully support what was said by my colleague, Deputy Michael D. Higgins. There is no sense in giving out the wrong signal by saying we should reduce the target for the development aid programme. That would only give the wrong message to everybody. For a whole lot of psychological reasons we should not go down that road.

There is an increased urgency to ensure that aid is targeted at the people for whom it is intended. Like many other people here I have followed that issue for a number of years. One does not gain popularity from pursuing that issue from time to time. However, the issue remains and it is bigger than ever simply because development aid is getting bigger, and the bigger it gets the more it becomes a target for those who are corrupt to seize upon and ensure they get an ever increasing share of it. Dealing with that is very difficult. From the point of view of the donor we cannot provide the security that is required to ensure it is safeguarded. The UN does not seem to be able to do it either, despite having resources which are somewhat greater than ours. It is left to the NGOs and the volunteers to do it as best they can and, as has been said by many people, there are inherent dangers in that also.

What should we do next? There is an ever pressing urgency when offering aid to developing countries, especially those with a less than desirable record, to enter into an agreement that makes it impossible for them to gain unless it can be clearly seen that the aid given is not being used as an indirect subsidy to other pursuits. Doing that is not rocket science. However, it requires more people to administer the aid. It requires that preconditions be clearly set down. For instance, how does one stop somebody in Congo from buying a new jet out of development aid funding received from several countries? There are millions in funding and it is a huge attraction to a corrupt government.

We need to listen to the aid agencies and NGOs in the developing countries to find out what they believe should be done at the coalface to try to eliminate corruption. If we do not, if we are not successful in preventing those who are corrupt from getting their hands on overseas development aid, we will lose and the perception of international aid will deteriorate as a result. It is a problem that needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency.

The question of danger to aid workers also needs to be examined. It is increasing as time goes on and it will become worse because there is a developing culture of pulling publicity stunts by abducting unfortunate hard-working international aid workers and lining them up in front of a television camera to get as much publicity as possible, using the victims to achieve a particular PR goal. In order to ensure the continuation of an aid programme we need to address the protection of development workers abroad and the issue of money getting into the hands of corrupt administrations and being used to subsidise indirectly their other illegal activities.

I too welcome the delegations representing their constituent organisations. I particularly welcome Sr. Noelle and was interested to hear of the administrative developments regarding the life-altering work of 800 missionaries in Africa, India and beyond who are now being helped by Development Co-operation Ireland to develop their own capacity to draw down funds. One of the things I encountered directly when I visited Africa, and the missionary orders in particular, as Minister of State with the President, was their stated and obvious concern that they did not have the financial, administrative and professional wherewithal to draw down moneys that were available for them through Irish Government funding. I am glad that mechanism has been put in place.

Following what Sr. Noelle has said, if one is looking for an area where capacity can be met, where the money can go for a ready font of activity, one could do no better than the Irish missionaries abroad. The work they have been doing for many years, frequently unnoticed, except by the people benefiting from the fabulous work they do in Africa and beyond, is greatly underfunded. I noticed as well, as Minister, that their requests for funding were always modest. When I met them in Africa I was tempted to tell them to ask for more because more money is available to fund their activities. Because of the type of people they are, they are grateful for every pound they get, which they make go far in the great work they do in looking after the sick and educating girls, in particular, in Africa and beyond. They have expanded their own horizons and confidence in terms of what they can do, and they are the people to do it. I am glad that particular institutional change has come about.

I am a little concerned when we talk about capacity because it may be symptomatic of people looking for excuses not to reach the UN target. This committee must be very firm on that issue, as we have been firm throughout. All the parties support the Government's initiative, as promised by the Taoiseach in 2000 at the Millennium Summit. We all hold firm behind that solemn commitment made by Ireland to the international community. To allow ourselves to be diverted into the capacity argument is to allow ourselves to be thrown off course by persons who are looking for excuses not to reach the target.

I welcome the opportunity to talk about and hear confirmation from all the NGOs here that they have the capacity to absorb more money if it is forthcoming from the Irish Government. Poor countries certainly have a capacity to absorb it. All our bilateral programmes in our six priority countries in Africa have huge capacity to absorb extra money.

We should think about the plight of Ethiopia, which is recovering from a war and recurrent famine. It could use double the aid. It has a horrendous growth in population in terms of the needs of the people. That country has plenty of capacity to take our money. We have a long-standing relationship Ethiopia. We also have long-standing and acclaimed programmes with our other five priority countries in Africa, all of which could do with more money, particularly when there is a fall-off from other countries.

As has been said, the focus has gone from Africa. Billions of dollars are going into Iraq and the so-called war against terrorism. I understand there is despair in the UN that Africa is now taking second last or last place to all the other countries of focus in the world in the so-called war against terrorism. Ireland has always had a focus on Africa. We reviewed our programme following the Cabinet decision, which has not been reversed — I am glad it was reinstated by the Tánaiste publicly and in the Dáil. That decision stands, unless it is reversed by another Cabinet decision.

When we reviewed the programme I chaired a high-level committee to examine how we will spend this money and plan, in a programmed way, to expand the budget. It is a major expansion of the budget. It was politically driven and has huge political support. The social partners were consulted. The people who deal with the poor in Ireland were consulted, as were the trade unions, business, employers, the churches and everybody who is part of the fabric of what Ireland represents. There is a general cross-party consensus here that this is the way to go and this is part of what Ireland represents.

We examined all of that. The high-level committee sat for nearly a year consulting with the officials in Development Co-operation Ireland, or Ireland Aid as it was then called, and we worked out how we would spend the money. We examined the problems and challenges involved in what is essentially a doubling of our programme from €500 million now to approximately €1 billion by the year 2007. We worked that out and it is listed here. It meant increasing the capacity of DCI to manage an increased level of funding. It considered the capacity of our partner countries and that of the NGOs to absorb it. It considered the areas we should prioritise, and we decided to stay with Africa and also go into Central America with the help of NGOs. We talked about expanding and upgrading our embassies in our bilateral countries so that there would be a sufficient number of people in the field to monitor and ensure accountability for that money.

We examined major issues of corruption as well as accountability issues. We spent months examining accountability issues because there was so much concern in that regard. This is taxpayers' money and we have to make sure it is all accounted for. We put in place extra auditing mechanisms. We have to account for this money to the Comptroller and Auditor General and to this Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. All the NGOs were involved in that. We decided to keep our focus on primary health care, education and sanitation, the most basic services, and to stay with the poorest communities in the poorest countries. We were not going off course. We had a plan. We still have a plan.

The issue of capacity is being thrown out as some sort of excuse for not reaching the target. We should see it for what it is. There is no incapacity in the developing world. There is chronic poverty in the developing world. There is more humanitarian need, as has been said, in Darfur, Afghanistan and Africa. There is still famine, conflict and huge need in those countries, and there are millions of AIDS orphans. The Ireland Aid review committee considered this, took advice from the OECD and other experts and thought of strategic investment in multilateral agencies. The review recommended investment in multilateral agencies, including the UNDP, the United Nations High Commission for Refugees, the World Health Organisation and UNAIDS. It is a global fund for AIDS. There is no shortage of placeswhere this money can go.

What is at issue now is that somebody is backsliding on this commitment, but this committee has made it clear that we will not stand for it. It is highly possible that we can reach this target, and the Minister for Foreign Affairs should be the champion for that target. Of all Ministers, the Minister with responsibility for the aid programme should be its champion. The Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, never dropped the ball on this issue. He never suggested that at any time. When I was Minister of State, I initiated this commitment at Cabinet. The Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, followed it through. We kept on course and even though there were volume increases, our gross was such that we were being thrown off target by our own wealth.

This is not really a problem; it is a challenge to this Government to hold to its commitment to the world community. It is not just about our reputation at the UN. It is about that to some extent, but it is more about the fact that it is the right way to proceed. The people of Ireland support it and the elected representatives in this Oireachtas support it. I cannot understand why we are now talking about capacity, with the great needs of Africa so obvious. Everybody in this room has travelled to Africa and seen where the money is being spent. We have seen the life-altering results of that money. We should not be thrown off course by issues such as corruption.

Corruption is actually a development in itself. It comes with a very fallible and wounded continent, which has a legacy of oppression, colonisation, chronic under-development, lack of investment and terrible debt. All of us know the enmeshed nature of development, that it is not a perfect science and that many of the countries we are dealing with are emerging from conflict. They are emerging democracies. Many of their constitutions are dated 1991 or 1994. Those of us in the west have had hundreds of years of democracy and can easily look down our noses at emerging democracies, which have governance and corruption issues, but we have to remember that is part of their development. Part of our aid funding has to go to those areas to help build stronger democracies in Africa and to get education and proper administrative systems into those countries. Anyone who has reviewed our programmes over a number of years has found that our model of aid comes through with shining colours because we have the proper model based on respectful partnerships with emerging democracies. NGOs have a major part to play in that. I believe in the capacity of Africans to govern themselves if they are assisted. We must have that optimistic view of the human beings who are Africans who, if helped and resourced and not abandoned by the rest of the world, can recover from the legacy which has befallen them through no fault of their own.

The humanitarian assistance budget, which is a type of floating fund, is always provided for because we do not know what humanitarian emergency will arise. It is important that we have that resource available at any time, which can be drawn down to respond to an unpredictable emergency. The nature of humanitarian disasters is that they are unpredictable. There are still famines. A horrendous situation has been unfolding in Darfur. I am sure the Minister for Foreign Affairs has been generous in his response to that situation, but those who have been observing the situation in Sudan for many years will recall that we had an aid programme in Sudan at one point but we could not continue it because of the war. One cannot continue an aid programme on a bilateral basis when an oppressive war is being fought over many years. We pulled out of the bilateral programme there and changed our form of assistance to that of helping humanitarian agencies on the ground to help the poorest of the poor and to respond to the chronic needs there.

As a committee, we must be sure-footed on this area. Having listened to the evidence here which is wholly in favour of reaching the UN target, it confirms our own robust confirmation at a previous meeting calling on the Government to hold to that commitment. What is needed is predictable growth and we already have an upward schedule of predictable growth, as indicated if we are to reach the target by 2007. At the very least we should reach the target of 0.5% by 2005 and then move upwards and onwards. What we need is a budgetary envelope over the next three-year period which will see us reach that committed target. The country has never been better placed to do that. We are in a period of continuous economic growth. The political will to achieve that should exist. There is certainly political and wider community support for this commitment. We should hold to and not turn our backs to the commitment we made in our full senses by way of a Cabinet decision in respect of which there was no dissent. I do not know from where the notion came that we have a capacity problem and that we will not be able to spend the money. The most telling question is from where that idea is coming.

In August 2004, the Government restated its commitment to this target in the review of the programme. We want this commitment to continue at Estimates time — that is the difference.

Exactly. The commitment must be translated into the Estimates.

I have listened, with great interest, to the discussion. I defer to the enormous expertise of the former Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, and the former Minister, Deputy Michael Higgins. I refer to them as such because I know they were central to advancing this agenda.

Having listened to the contributions, there seems to be an element of self-flagellation coming from the political side. I will read from the Taoiseach's letter because it is important at least to acknowledge the letter that was sent, notwithstanding what Deputy O'Donnell said about the other element of it. In his letter the Taoiseach states:

We have gone from €150 million or €160 million to €480 million. Economic growth of 6% or 7% drives it on also. We are widely acknowledged, both in the World Bank and the IMF, for what we have achieved. We are now seventh out of 193 countries, which is a huge commitment by the Irish people. Irish taxpayers are paying almost €0.5 billion and we have to continue to drive that on to try to get to 0.7% as quickly as possible.

Earlier in the letter the Taoiseach states that he confirmed to the leader of Fine Gael, Deputy Kenny, in the House on 20 October that it is the aim of the Government to get to that target. It is also important to note that reality.

When one considers the enormous social and economic problems in this country, notwithstanding the wealth, perceived or real, and the real poverty Deputies present encounter first-hand, it is extraordinary that the Irish people have such generosity of spirit and that this not a political issue, as has been stated, in that there is a widespread political consensus on the issue of ODA. At least, I do not hear this matter raised as a policy issue at election time, and there are two by-elections coming up. I am sure my good friend, Deputy Durkan, will not be met on the doorsteps of North Kildare with a question as to why we are giving all this money to people elsewhere when there are so many other problems throughout the country. That question is raised from time to time but it is not a major issue, nor is it a major policy issue. Not only is there political consensus among all parties in both Houses of the Oireachtas on this issue but the Irish people have an enormous and generous capacity whenever one of the various NGOs represented here approach them for money, which is on top of what they pay indirectly as taxpayers. I simply want to put the position in context. I know it sounds like the worst cliché in the world but there has been a lot done and there is also a lot more to do. It is important to acknowledge that a lot has been done. I get a little tired sometimes of the constant carping and criticism. I would say the same about any Government that has the political will to move forward on this issue. Let us just acknowledge what has been done and see how we can increase this measure.

Deputy O'Donnell referred to the capacity issue. I presume she was referring to the Taoiseach's letter because that reference to it is made in the latter part of his letter where he more or less suggests that the committee could play a useful role by exploring with the Department of Foreign Affairs and the NGOs their capacity to handle such a huge level of increased funding and whether there are any logistical or management issues that need to be addressed before further significant increases in resources are deployed by the Government.

That brings me to the question that I want to ask my good friend, John O'Shea, who constantly bombards me and other Members of the two Houses with all sorts of nefarious activities that are being carried on particularly by the Ugandan Government, about which he seems to have a total obsession, which I am not saying is in any way misplaced. There is are many other issues, as outlined by Deputy Michael Higgins in particular, concerning other frauds, oil and other factors affecting the development of the African continent. Whenever John O'Shea sends in anything relating to what is going on in Uganda, I raise it. It is not only I who would have raised it but I am only speaking for myself. This matter has been regularly and consistently refuted by the Department of Foreign Affairs. Therefore, who is wrong and who is right? The most recent document he sent in related to the AIDS story in Africa. The provenance of the article gives rise to some concern considering it is The Guardian newspaper, which helped to ensure the re-election of George W. Bush in recent months with the most bizarre attempt to influence voters in middle America. Who thought that up and then put themselves forward as the protector of the disadvantaged and the social agenda that The Guardian has been proposing?

(Interruptions).

That is not the point. I read The Guardian.

I read it too.

I read it quite regularly, but I think everybody would agree it really got it wrong on this one. Even the man who initiated it has put his hands up.

If one reads the article on AIDS to which I referred, the story is not quite as it seems. The headline and the opening paragraph are good, but when one goes into the detail of it, one finds that there is a great deal of confusion about what the AIDS statistics are in Uganda. I am not for one moment suggesting that the article is inaccurate. I also know that John O'Shea's motivation is of the noblest kind. The reason he does this regularly is that it is right and proper that he should bring these matters to the attention of members of the committee and other politicians. I would like him to nail this issue because it arises regularly. Mr. O'Shea seems to be alone on the issue because other non-governmental organisations, NGOs, which have gone on radio and television have not necessarily agreed with his analysis of Uganda. This Government's greatest contribution from its ODA budget is to Uganda.

Deputy O'Donnell said every member of the committee had been to Africa, but I have not. I am reluctant to engage in a debate with those closest to it, either here on the committee or working in the field. I can only add my support to the work of NGOs. I have enormous respect and admiration for them and their field supporters in a troubled world where there is no guarantee of security for aid workers, whether in Darfur, the Congo or Iraq. I will continue to lend my support through thick and thin because they do what many of us would like to do but do not have the capacity mentally or physically.

I understand Ireland, under its ODA programme, makes a contribution to UNRA. The memories of what Deputies O'Donnell and Higgins saw in Africa will stay with them. The memory of what I witnessed in the Gaza Strip stays with me. Senator Norris was with me on one of my visits. There was one doctor and two nurses and a queue of approximately 1,000 young mothers and children at one measly health centre in the Jabala refugee camp. It is the most densely populated area in the world. Do any of the NGOs have a focus there or an opinion to offer? I am not trying to divert from the importance of the work they do in Africa. However, what is Ireland's role in the Gaza Strip? What contribution are we making there? Is there an end in sight to the misery imposed on mothers and children in the refugee camps? We must have an input. I would like us to increase our contribution to that miserable and unfortunate part of the world, whether through UN agencies or bilateral aid discussion.

I apologise for my late arrival. I had to attend the Order of Business in the Seanad and cannot be in two places at once. I read much of the documentation.

I hope the issue of capacity has been resolved in the Oireachtas. There is overwhelming consensus that there is a capacity to deal with any increase in ODA funding which is made available. There may be discussions about where it is used, but there is no shortage of capacity. That has become apparent over recent weeks. One must assume a question of capacity is an excuse given in advance for decisions based on political priorities. This committee must state clearly it believes this country and the international community have the capacity to absorb efficiently and accountably whatever resources we make available for development.

I fully subscribe to everything said in the development debate about good governance. Let us climb off any high horse of moral superiority. We live in a continent which massacred 10 to 20 million of its own citizens within living memory. We have no great claim to moral superiority in Europe or in this situation. If we want to deal with corruption, let us deal with it. However, let us not use legitimate concern about corruption to undermine public commitment to the issue of development. In the United States, hostility towards multilateral agencies has spun into public hostility towards anything that is not entirely NGO development aid. That would be an unmitigated disaster.

The Chairman and I attended a conference on Africa in Rome last year. My abiding memory is meeting a parliamentarian from Burundi whose English was as good as my French, but we communicated nonetheless. In my role as rapporteur he wanted me to mention that of the hundreds of thousands shot in his country, not one was shot by a gun made in Burundi. All the weapons were made somewhere else, probably in a country which would claim the right to give lectures about moral superiority.

There is a need for a co-ordinated policy to deal with aid, trade, debt and the arms issue. These are manifestations of the same problem. It seems the only way to eliminate one's country's debt, is to be invaded by the United States. The only country in the world that will have its debt eliminated is Iraq. I wish them well and I hope it works. However, what has been preached to us about every other country in the world will not apply to Iraq.

I also apologise for not being here in time. Even if Ireland and other countries which have signed up to the figure of 0.7% of gross national product, GNP, achieve this target, Ethiopia will not be transformed from unrelenting poverty to massive wealth, nor Uganda from savagery to well-ordered society. There are more than enough projects to swallow up all the money allocated for us to reach the target of 0.7% of GNP.

With regard to education, there are classes with vast numbers of pupils. In one case I saw 104 children. These are taught by teachers with little pre-service and no in-service training, and few appropriate teaching materials. That is replicated throughout Africa. If I ever achieved anything through this committee and my membership of the House, I would like to be able to persuade those who can be persuaded to invest more money in curriculum development in Africa and elsewhere. I have seen books in libraries in Ethiopia but even if the children there could read them, they would have to have studied advanced physics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology or at Oxford University.

We saw the transformation in the human security area that relatively modest amounts of DCI money brought about in Tigre. There are opportunities available to us to transform areas like Tigre from debt-ridden, poverty-stricken and barren lands into places where people have a certain pride in self-development. That warrants an extension of overseas development aid money to 0.7% of GNP.

In Uganda, where we saw the IDP malaria projects in Gulu, small amounts of money provide huge returns. That is so, even on a purely humanitarian level, when one looks at the 4,500 children coming in from the mountains under cover of darkness to have a safe place to sleep. They were not being fed but were simply sleeping in safety. That alone persuades me that we ought to work towards achieving the 0.7% goal. Africa will not pose an economic threat to the northern hemisphere for a long time, if ever. We are talking about trying to lift the continent out of a level of misery that is hard to imagine to some level of sustainability. It is laudable that we are adding Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and East Timor to the list of programme countries. What is the point of spreading small amounts ever more thinly? If we are to make an impact in any of those countries and in the existing programme countries, we need to achieve the 0.7% target. We have the opportunities and resources to do so. I will not go into the political arguments because it is self-evident why we should be doing it. We should be doing it on grounds of decency if for no other reason.

I apologise for having missed most of the contributors but, as other people have explained, we had the Order of Business in the Seanad. I do not wish to repeat what others have already said but I caught the end of Deputy O'Donnell's contribution. She speaks with great authority, having worked in this area to great acclaim from the people if not always to the ease and convenience of the Government. She was courageous in defending overseas development aid. She said something that struck me and I am glad she put it on the record. She asked where the notion of capacity comes from. The committee should examine that matter. I agree with Senator Ryan that it looks as if this is some sort of pre-emptive fudge on the part of the Taoiseach. I say this particularly because Mr. Ronan Murphy, the director general of Development Co-operation Ireland, seemed to indicate clearly and categorically that there was no difficulty in terms of capacity or certainly not the insuperable one that seemed to be raised in the letter from the Taoiseach.

It is of concern when one couples that with the fact that we have begun moving away from, rather than towards, the 0.7% target, although not by a huge amount. In 2002 it was 0.41% and it has now fallen to 0.4%. I do not like the language employed when the Taoiseach talks about aiming for this 0.7% target. It was a clear commitment publicly given to the Oireachtas and to the United Nations in the most public of all fora. There is a problem with aiming at something. I occasionally play darts and when I aim at the board, I sometimes hit the wall. When one has an aim, it is no bloody use. We must say we are going to achieve the target.

I do not have Deputy O'Donnell's experience but I think I understood the language, although I am sure she will be able to advise me if I have not got it right. She spoke about a budget envelope, which sounds like there is a real commitment and we know how much money is in place. We are not aiming, hoping or having a pious aspiration. We are doing something.

We should take up the suggestion by Mr. Zomer, which is from a document published by his organisation, Dóchas. The document states that ODA should be taken out of the annual spat between different Departments competing for funds, particularly since we have given a commitment and it was decided at Cabinet level. It said we should ask the Government in the forthcoming Estimates to bring forward a clear and specific targeted plan as well as introducing legislation before the Oireachtas. I strongly support that. It is indicative that Fine Gael, Labour and Sinn Féin, in other words, the Opposition, have said they also support this. That is a critical factor because one of the reasons this committee, under the chairmanship of Deputy Woods, works so well is that it is an all-party body. We can hear people like Deputy Carey talking passionately about the need to commit these resources out of a sense of human shame because people suffer so much. Therefore, the Government will not face any opposition and it can only increase the country's prestige, if one wants to be cynical about it. It may very well do a great deal of good, although not as much as one would like because, as Deputy Carey said, it is not a panacea.

I heard Mr. Arnold of Concern speaking on the radio this morning making the point that even if all this money were raised and even if we achieved our millennium goals, there would still be 400 million people at starvation level in 2015. That is an awful reproach to a world in which there is such a huge amount of wealth. There is also a great deal of strife and the source of much of it is the inequality over which we all preside.

I regret I did not hear what Mr. O'Shea said about corruption because he has the capacity to direct one's attention to clear cases of corruption. We need to be careful, however. Rather than examining capacity, I am inclined to examine stewardship. Since this is taxpayers' money, there is a responsibility to focus and target it towards people who will use it properly. There is a sustainable case that there has been a great deal of what I would politely call mismanagement in countries such as Uganda. There is no doubt that they have interfered in places like the Congo. There are strong indications that funds have been displaced from social to military programmes, perhaps even using money from countries such as ours. That is intolerable and we are perfectly entitled to require high standards of stewardship.

I would echo what Senator Mooney said about the importance of making as great a contribution as possible to the situation in Palestine. I do not recall there being as many as a 1,000 women. That may be an exaggeration because it would have impressed itself much more vividly on me, but I do remember visiting Jabalia. I visited Gaza recently and may be going back again quite soon. I keep in contact with the kind of work friends of mine are doing, not only there but also in places like south Hebron.

It is important that groups like those represented here have a presence in an area like Palestine. As I have stated at the committee previously, I am aware of situations which are remarkably similar to those which arose in this country and with which the Irish people can identify. For example, just outside south Hebron there is a series of small villages where children are routinely attacked by settlers, with the police and military standing by. It is more severe than what happened in the Holy Cross school in Belfast, which was a most horrible and shocking incident. We, who witnessed and protested rightly about that in our own country, should try to ensure that such incidents do not happen and that those who permit them to happen and those who execute them should be held accountable. It is also important that we have our agencies there on the ground to bear witness to this kind of thing.

It is remarkable that a committee that has so many vibrant and diverse personalities and reflects different political viewpoints should be at consensus on this area. There is not the slightest shadow of doubt of the position of every single member. The Chairman wrote a good letter pointing out the commitment made and asking that this commitment should be fulfilled.

There will now be short contributions from each of the visitors.

Before they do so, may I say I am sorry I missed the contribution of the representative from DCI? Was there any suggestion from DCI that it had a capacity problem in management? We have heard from the NGOs.

They do not have a problem. They can develop the capacity. That was made fairly clear.

That fulfils the mandate of the meeting. There is no capacity problem.

Perhaps we will start with Sr. Noelle. Do you wish to comment at this stage?

Sr. Corscaddon

I reiterate what has been said.

You particularly urged that the aid commitment be met. I made a note of that.

Sr. Corscaddon

It is important that Ireland should give the leadership in this, as the people would want us to do. The Government should take that role seriously.

On a personal note, I congratulate Deputy Higgins on his commitment to and passion for the poor of the Third World over many years. It is not easy to keep at it. He has done it and he showed in his dissertation that he has lost none of his commitment. It is great to see that.

He mentioned the importance of primary education. I agree entirely with him. If a Mandela is to come and rescue the poor of the Third World, he or she will not come from the West. We are far too greedy. We are far too selfish. We look inward. We never look outward. I am talking about from the top table. It must come from Africa. Primary education is the way forward and if I were in charge of a big budget, that is where I would be putting it.

Deputy Higgins mentioned Nigerian oil and he is quite right. I would throw in Angola oil as well. One cannot get attention in an Angolan hospital because there is no generator working because all the oil is gone to somewhere like France, the United States and Britain and all the back-handers have gone to the government. Angola has one of the wealthiest governments in Africa but one of the poorest groups of people. It is a classic case of how a government screws its own people and how the West, because it is benefiting from the oil, is saying nothing and keeping its head down.

There is another point about corruption which I feel is important and at which the Deputy hinted. The brain drain is incredible. The intelligent people in Africa do a runner because they cannot tolerate corruption and they go off to the West. Although this is not a criticism, that means we are left with people who are not quite up to it and as a result we must be there to watch for corruption. We cannot employ people who have the qualities to do the job and that is as a direct result of corruption. Corruption is all corrosive.

There is a cash drain as well. Even the money that is ripped off does not stay in the country. If it did stay in the country, it would not be a bad thing in one way. It does not, however. It goes out of the country as well and the poor are left in a dreadful state.

Deputy Durkan mentioned something to the effect that I said people do not care. He misunderstood me. In the context of Darfur, I was talking about people at the top table in the international community who are allowing two million lives to hang by a thread and they are not doing anything about it. Of course the ordinary people care. The ordinary people around the world have always cared and none care more than the Irish people.

Deputy O'Donnell spoke of the missionaries. In my miserable experience, nobody has delivered aid better, more effectively than the Irish missionaries. They are the best by far because of their commitment and because, unlike us, they can stay the full course. As Deputy O'Donnell pointed out, they never get the credit they unquestionably deserve. While there are still some of them around, we ought to give them that credit every chance we get. I am delighted to hear there are so many missionaries around, hale and hearty.

Senator Mooney really wanted me to solve the Ugandan question. I cannot do so. All I did with him, as I do with the rest of the members, is pass on correspondence which comes to me. The members of the committee are far more intelligent than I am. They should be able to have a look at it. When somebody says the Ugandan Government has invaded the Congo and five million people are dead, they should be able to put two and two together. I do not have to draw pictures for the members. I send in all of the correspondence that comes to me from various outlets.

It is clear to me that, morally, Ireland should have nothing to do with Uganda because it has the deaths of five million people on its hands. I do not care whether they are saving 40 million from AIDS. If a country invades another and robs it of its natural resources, we cannot have anything to do with that regime. We have chosen to have a great deal to do with it. There is emerging evidence that the European Union is thinking of withdrawing all aid from them because they are diverting money to the war in the north of Uganda. A member mentioned that we pulled out of the Sudan because of a war. There is a much bigger war going on in Uganda than there was in the Sudan when the Irish Government had the moral courage to withdraw. I remember at the time congratulating the Irish Government for having that courage. We should now have the courage to do exactly the same in Uganda.

There is also a serious question about the success of Uganda's AIDS programme. They say only 4% of people in Uganda have AIDS. The report, which was conducted in 53 of the 56 districts, states the figure is 17%. They are saying it is a tissue of lies. I do not know whether that is true. All I am doing is passing on this information. I cannot go to Uganda because I would be shot, but that is what I would expect from people whom you have criticised. I have been warned often enough by them. As the committee will be aware, Museveni came here a few months ago to have words with me but, happily for me, I went out on the golf course. I had a bit of sense.

I am delighted that Senator Norris, like Deputy Higgins, still has the old fire in his belly. He mentioned the word witness, which is important from the point of view of groups like us. We see ourselves, if we are honest, as much more important to the cause as witnesses than as the deliverers of aid. All of us having been around a long time, we know that what we do is small in the overall context. If we at least tell somebody the Titanic is going down, somebody far more important that us may be able to do something about it. Therefore that word ‘witness’ is important.

Mr. Meehan

The support of this committee is invaluable for our work and also on this issue of the size of our aid programme. On what we have heard today, I would have to agree with Deputy O'Donnell that the capacity issue has been addressed quite clearly. I compliment you, Chairman, on your letter and the comments in that regard made in it to the Taoiseach.

Of course achieving the 0.7% target is not the end. In a sense it is only the beginning. The problems that beset the continent of Africa are serious and deep-rooted. As Deputy Michael D. Higgins stated, many of them are hidden. There are issues around the importance of trade and debt. There are also issues for the Irish Government in terms of the coherence of our policies in respect of those two aspects of our work.

I wish to make two reports available to the committee in which it might be interested. The first is a UN report from 2002 which identifies, names and criticises a number of well known corporations, companies and businesses for their abuses in the Democratic Republic of Congo and which basically accuses them of bribery, theft and corruption. This issue has been aired quite well here and we cannot simply lay the blame at the door of African governments. It is a complex issue and there are many sides to it.

The second report was complied by our sister agency, CRS, in the US on oil and Africa. It is extraordinary that wherever oil has been found on the African continent, there seem to have been abuses of human rights and abject poverty. The case of the Ogoni people who inhabit the Niger Delta in Nigeria is the best example of this.

The issue of threats to the lives of humanitarian workers was raised. This is a critically important matter. There are serious issues involving the militarisation of aid. There are situations where humanitarian workers, regardless of whether they work for the UN or NGOs, are seen as being closely allied to military forces. This is a serious problem about which we are all concerned. A number of ICRC staff were murdered in Afghanistan a number of months ago which led to some of us withdrawing our staff from that country. We are extremely concerned about the safety of those staff who have remained there. Questions arise as to why this is happening. We must be careful of people's perceptions in terms of how closely we might be allied to military forces.

Mr. Arnold

I wish to make three brief points. A number of comments were made to the effect that aid alone is not the answer. That is clearly the case. Nobody would even begin to suggest the opposite. What is important is that for the poorest countries with which we deal aid is, whether as part of their overall public finances or their ability to afford education and health systems, extremely important. These countries do not have the levels of domestic savings or foreign investment necessary to generate the resources to boost public finances or provide education or health systems. A substantially increased level of aid from the international community is of crucial importance. Such aid translates into the sorts of things to which Deputy Carey referred, namely, the basic possibilities countries have to provide their children with even the most elementary school facilities.

There has been a great deal of discussion at this meeting about governance issues and corruption. What Senator Ryan said struck a chord. We must recognise that there are certain countries in which major governance and corruption problems exist. There are also many countries where problems exist but where there is a will to try to deal with them. There will be no solution to these problems unless there is an acceptance that they can be resolved only through long-term, sustained assistance, at both the political and administrative levels, aimed at improving the standards of governance in these countries. That is going to require aid programmes here. It will not merely be a matter of African governments being able to improve their performance; they must be assisted in this endeavour.

I have just returned from Mozambique in which real progress is being made. We are considering how to assist district planning authorities there to improve their performance. It is a complex, slow and painstaking business but there is no alternative.

I come now to the heart of today's debate, namely, the commitment of 0.7%. As Deputy O'Donnell stated, this commitment was made to the international community in the full glare of media attention and confirmed by a Cabinet decision. The commitment is ultimately about how we wish to define ourselves in terms of our political system and as a people. I shall put it simply, what we are talking about is providing 70 cent for each €100 of national income to be devoted to development assistance. It is aimed at enabling us provide a leadership role at international level . As Deputy Carey stated, it comes down to a matter of decency. I agree with him in that regard. When he visited Ireland in recent weeks, Kofi Annan stated that it is also a matter of enlightened self-interest for this and other wealthy countries. If we do not attack the awful and dreadful divisions that exist at world level, we will undermine our long-term political and human security.

I echo what Mr. Meehan said, namely, that the role of the committee in being clear about the position it has adopted in this debate is of immense value.

Mr. Zomer

In view of the time constraints I will make only one point. I thank the Chairman and members for this stimulating debate. The huge commitment and knowledge of members is plainly apparent. I thoroughly enjoyed the debate. I thank the committee for its continued support for the argument that the Government should reach the 0.7% target by 2007. I was also glad to hear support being expressed in respect of the option of introducing legislation in respect of this matter. We wish the committee well in that regard.

Do the representatives of DCI wish to comment?

Mr. Murphy

Many interesting topics were raised during the discussion which was useful and informative. I assure the committee that the new Minister and Minister of State want an open dialogue and discussion about the type of issues raised at this meeting. As resources increase within the aid programme, there will be an accompanying dialogue on these issues.

I wish to reply to a number of the comments made. We need to consider the position as regards volunteers and voluntarism because, as John O'Shea and others have stated, things have changed. I can confirm that APSO has gone but we still must find a way to respond to the idealism that exists on the part of so many young people. Such a way does not exist at present but we must find one.

I will ask Mr. Brendan Rogers to comment on the questions raised about Gaza.

Mr. Brendan Rogers

Senators Mooney and Norris referred to Palestine and we share their concerns in that regard. Palestine is very much on our minds in terms of the development programme. We have just completed a new three-year programme for Palestine amounting to over €10 million. On a per capita basis, that is probably as large as some of our programmes in Africa. It is always difficult to obtain a balance between the emergency needs of Palestine and its long-term development needs. However, we try to achieve such a balance. The programme is divided between working with UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency — a key partner for us in emergency work in Palestine — and working with displaced Palestinians in Palestine and some neighbouring countries. The funds we give UNRWA are utilised in the areas of health, education, water and sanitation in order to meet people’s basic needs.

With regard to the longer term in Palestine, we are working to assist the Palestinian Authority in building its capacity in local government. We are training health care workers and are working in primary education and human rights while a number of Palestinians are being trained in Ireland.

I refer Mr. O'Shea to the Tigré area in Ethiopia, which was mentioned briefly by Deputy Carey. An interesting project on food security was undertaken where a valley with a population of 6,000 was provided with a water management system. The people ended up being able to feed themselves and allow their children to attend school. The school catered for 2,064 children who lived on the sides of mountains that had been barren. Irish technology was used in Tigré. People in other areas want to experience something similar. The witnesses have referred to how frustrating it is and the significant difficulties and risks involved and I accept that, but it was marvellous to see that and to see those children coming down from the hills was marvellous, just as it was to see children in Uganda entering compounds at night while there were Ugandan soldiers patrolling outside in what is effectively the bush to protect them. We visited those compounds and presented a football to the 4,500 children. Hair was growing out of the footballs there because they had been kicked to such an extent.

The other project I want to talk about was a project for street children and other projects for women in Addis Ababa run by GOAL. This was an excellent project. It was heartening to see the new life given to these people at little cost on an individual basis. We are compiling a report on our visit to Ethiopia and Uganda and that leads me to the final point.

The committee is concerned about corruption. We have had some discussion on it today but we will examine the issue separate to the Estimates process. We need to take a leadership role and to examine the different elements involved. Deputy Dan Wallace and I represented the committee at a conference on governance and corruption in Berlin two weeks ago. It was organised by the German Government and representatives of many African states were present. It was a small conference, however, with only 60 people present. Only three people had been invited from northern Europe and I was one. I assure Mr. O'Shea that I take what he says seriously. I might not get as excited about it as he might like but I seek solutions. That is the story of my life. I am built that way. I work to achieve solutions rather than seek publicity. The committee should press on regarding the corruption issues. Deputy Michael D. Higgins stated we should examine the issue further and do a project on it.

The joint committee, the NGOs and the missionaries present urge the Government to endorse the 0.7% of GDP commitment; to take immediate concrete and substantial steps in the forthcoming Estimates to catch up on the target; and to set out the amounts for the next three years. We must also stress the need that exists, that the number of staff must be increased urgently and that it is vital Ireland maintains its leadership role. We will convey the outcome of the meeting to the Taoiseach. I thank the witnesses for their attendance and for giving us such valuable information.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.45 p.m. and adjourned at 5 p.m. sine die.

Barr
Roinn