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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Human Rights) díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Nov 2004

UN Human Rights Norms: Presentation.

I welcome Professor Weissbrodt and Mr. Colm Ó Cuanacháin, secretary general of the Irish section of Amnesty International. The sub-committee is pleased to have this opportunity to hear Professor Weissbrodt, as he is a recognised expert on the issue of corporate accountability. It is a great opportunity for our members to learn more about the UN norms.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege, but that the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I call on the Professor to make his presentation.

Professor David Weissbrodt

I thank the committee for inviting me and I will try not to abuse the privilege the Chairman just mentioned. I feel very welcome here in Dublin. With such beautiful blue skies and sun, I feel very much at home. It is an honour to appear before the committee to talk about my experience.

As a member of the UN sub-commission on the promotion and protection of human rights, I was one of 26 members who worked on the UN human rights norms for business. I hope that all the members of the committee have copies of this green book kindly made available by Amnesty International. The second half of the document, starting on page 20, contains the work that we did at the UN. If committee members have any questions for me during my presentation, I would love to respond to them.

Vice-Chairman

In the interests of efficiency, I suggest that the professor give the committee an outline of his work in the context of the norms. We will then leave it open to members to engage in a question and answer session.

Professor Weissbrodt

I will try to set the scene. This document on UN human rights norms reflects worldwide interest in encouraging companies that are committed to protecting human rights. It tries to provide them with some guidance as to what the meaning of their commitment might be. The Government in Ireland is very committed to the universal declaration of human rights and has ratified the principal human rights treaties. Many companies have mentioned their commitment to the universal declaration of human rights. It is not easy to convert that commitment to something that is related to business. In this document, we have taken those commitments and translated them into business friendly language. At the same time, the document is intended to apply to all companies and not just those that have made a previous commitment to human rights.

There were some situations that gave rise to our concerns. There were potential violations of employment rights by companies, such as discrimination against union members or women. There might be production processes that have consequences for neighbouring communities. Companies may be implicated through close association with repressive governments that commit human rights abuses. However, we recognise companies bring great prosperity. Ireland successfully encouraged dialogue between the business community, unions, civil society and government to achieve the prosperity it accomplished. We want to fit within that context.

The document states the facts best, and it is better that members read it. They should look at it, rather than having people tell them about it.

The most important principal is contained at the bottom of page 21 and the top of 22: "States have the primary responsibility to promote and protect human rights ... Within their respective spheres of activity and influence, transnational corporations and other business enterprises have the same obligation...". Everything in the document should be regarded in light of these words. We are not trying to displace responsibilities of governments which have the primary role in making and obeying human rights norms. These words refer to a complex problem, namely how do we pitch the obligations of big companies, such as transnational corporations, and smaller companies? The document states that within their respective spheres of activity and influence, transnational corporations and other business enterprises have responsibilities. Big companies have big responsibilities; little companies have smaller responsibilities.

Another issue is how to define human rights. In that context, we looked at previous experience, of which there is much with regard to corporate social responsibility. For example, the International Labour Organisation developed a number of conventions many of which Ireland is party to. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development has a series of guidelines for multinational corporations which apply to a number of issues, although it only mentions human rights once. The UN Global Compact is a prominent effort, whereby the Secretary General has announced ten brief sentences covering human and labour rights, environmental issues and, most recently, anti-corruption. In addition, a number of companies have issued their own codes of conduct. We looked at all of these efforts and with due humility, tried to provide the most comprehensive guidance possible in these areas.

One can see from the document sub-headings that we dealt with equality of opportunity and treatment, security, the rights of workers, the right to a healthy working environment, the right to collective bargaining, and protecting law and the rule of law. The document also has a balanced approach to intellectual property rights and responsibilities. We said there should be transparency and avoidance of corruption. We also added, within the sphere of activity and influence, civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights, but only within the remit of the company's responsibilities. Consumer and environmental protection are also covered in the document. It is quite a comprehensive list. However, it takes into account all previous efforts in this area, and the norms reflect, restate and refer to existing norms.

Those are the three basic orientations of the document. However, there were certain evolutions in the drafting process, one of the most important of which related to implementation. I was first asked to draft the document by the UN Sub-Commission on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights in 1999. I asked the sub-commission whether it wanted a voluntary code of conduct like so many codes of conduct and the UN Global Compact, or one that was not voluntary and applied to all companies? The sub-commission responded that it respected voluntary efforts as extremely important in getting company buy-in to corporate social responsibility. They represent an important educational effort for companies, industry sectors and also globally in terms of the UN Global Compact.

However, there are problems regarding voluntary undertaking, which require additional effort. If a company puts a code of conduct on its website it can remove or modify it the next day. I have looked at hundreds of company codes of conduct, and only 80 of them mention human rights.

The UN Global Compact is an important educational exercise, and one that I applaud and support. Approximately 1,700 companies are signed up to it, including the Musgrave Group, the only company based in Ireland to do so. However, as an international company, Diageo has also accepted the Global Compact. It is estimated, though, that some 75,000 transnational corporations in the world have not signed up. What do we do with these others? We need a document that applies more broadly.

The UN Sub-Commission on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights did not believe the world was ready for a binding treaty with regard to this subject matter. Instead we drafted an instrument, like so many other declarations, principles, norms, guidelines and recommendations produced by the UN, which interpret existing international law and do not reach the status of a treaty. Eventually, the norms might be used as the basis for treaty, but we are not there yet.

However, the norms set forth some effort to establish implementation mechanisms. Within the context of the sub-commission and civil society which supported our work, there was a feeling it was not enough to set up basic principles with regard to security, the rights of workers or environment issues and summarise existing terms of treaties and documents. Application is needed, or at least standards for application. We identified five techniques for implementation.

When a company wishes to create its own code of conduct, or already has one, it should look at the norms and decide if its document is consistent with all the issues identified. It is something of a checklist to ascertain how well we are doing as compared with these global standards. Second, if a company is anticipating a major activity, it should consider the impact of that activity with regard to the basic standards found in the norms.

These first two methods for applying the norms depend on companies' self-assessment. This is important because if a company buys into these principles of corporate social responsibility, it is more effective than external enforcement. Nonetheless, this is not enough. Therefore, the third method we identified called in a general way for some degree of independent and transparent monitoring, which would involve input from stakeholders. Fourth, we noted that in many countries, there are mechanisms for finding reparation for injury. In continental countries, for example, there is a concept of social or civil responsibility for injury. In common law countries, we call this "torts", or the "law of tort". Assuming these mechanisms exist in all countries that we know of, we said that if there were violations of the norms, which cause injury, then those mechanisms for reparations should be invoked.

The fifth principle of implementation is a recognition of the important role of governments. We said there should be a framework of application of the norms at a national level, without indicating precisely what that would be. There is a good deal of room for figuring out what a government might do in this regard. I understand from the discussions I have had in Dublin with business and trade union associations that there is quite a robust framework of laws and regulations in Ireland that cover the issues found in the norms. This may not be so much the case in some other countries.

That is a summary of the document. Before I take members' questions, I would like to say something about the procedural preparation of this document and our progress with regard to the UN process. The document was prepared in an entirely open process. There were four public hearings, each of which was attended by several hundred people, including representatives of business, unions, civil society and governments. The draft was reviewed in these public fora and we heard comments from many individuals, all of which we took into account. In addition, there were redrafting exercises in the context of two seminars to which we invited business, union, civil society, academic and government representatives, and other experts, to help with the drafting process. The public hearings took place in July and August of 2002 and 2003, while the seminars took place in March of 2001 and 2003. These were very helpful in terms of redrafting the document and attaining more input.

In addition, every time we produced a draft, of which there was quite a number, it was posted on the Internet and comments invited. All those drafts are still available to view on the Internet. Everyone who had ever been in touch with the sub-commission about the issue was alerted to the existence of these drafts. Every comment we received was taken into account and almost all were responded to specifically by a return e-mail.

In August 2003, after receiving all these comments and engaging in this open process, the working group on transnational corporations of the sub-commission decided that the document was ready for consideration by the sub-commission. The working group is comprised of five individuals from five different regions of the world, Latin America, eastern Europe, western Europe, Asia and Africa. The sub-commission, comprised of 26 individuals from 26 different countries, including China, Japan, India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Senegal, France, Britain, The Netherlands, Norway, Brazil, and others, made its decision on the document on 13 August 2003. I was the member from the United States, though I participated as an independent expert rather than as a representative of my country. The document was unanimously adopted.

The sub-commission is a sub-body of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, which is comprised of 53 governments. The commission meets in March and April every year and received our recommendations in those months of 2004. The United Nations Commission on Human Rights, of which Ireland is a member, accepted the sub-commission's primary procedural recommendation that the document needed further dissemination and comment. We felt that a more substantive discussion should take place in March and April of 2005 and the commission accepted that proposal and asked for comment. The deadline for comment, 30 September, has passed but the commission held an open hearing on 22 October and there are a large number of written and oral comments on the norms, which will be made available in a report by the office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. I understand this report will be published in the coming December or January, in preparation for the March-April session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights.

The commission also welcomed the norms but said it had not specifically requested the document and commission members expressed a certain amount of surprise at its production. This is somewhat strange because the member governments had been attending these sessions for the past four years. There was a balance involved in this decision of the commission. The commission also did something extremely important, which was to put corporate social responsibility and human rights on its agenda. For the first time in the more than 50 years of the commission's existence, this issue is recognised as an important subject for its consideration.

The commission recognises that there are important actors in the world, including governments. We are all aware these days of the existence of armed opposition groups and terrorist organisations and there are international legal principles that apply to both governments and armed opposition groups. If one considers the powerful forces in the world, however, one must conclude that companies represent a significant force. Very few international principles, such as the norms, have been developed with regard to companies, particularly transnational companies. The commission recognised that corporate social responsibility is a subject upon which it needs to focus and this is a tremendously important development.

I anticipate that the next step will be taken at the March-April session of the Commission on Human Rights. There will be a call for a standard approach to standard-setting and for the commission to establish an open-ended working group so as to continue the drafting process, looking at the issue from the government perspective rather than from the perspective of the human rights experts. That will take a number of years. These documents are not drafted immediately. I was involved with the drafting of the declaration on disappearances undertaken by the Commission on Human Rights which took only a couple of years. However, I was also involved with the drafting of the declaration on religious intolerance which took 19 years. Therefore, there is quite a diversity in the length of time required.

While that is going on, a number of important developments are taking place whereby the norms have an impact in today's world. The first of the impacts is that investment companies which, for example, deal with mutual funds, design their funds with regard to corporate social responsibility and have begun to use the norms as a standard for determining which companies are socially responsible and which are not. For example, the International Security Information Service, located in London, has done this and I heard just this morning that Vancouver Investments in Canada has begun to cite the norms in this context. This is very important because we are talking about a market solution for handling this problem and of the impact of the norms being calculated in billions of euro.

Second, non-government organisations such as Amnesty International and Christian Aid have begun to use the norms as a basis for their assessment of company conduct. Both organisations jumped the gun somewhat in that even before August 2003 they had already begun to use the norms because they saw them as a useful summary of existing international law as applicable to companies. They wanted to make sure they could use this document as an easy way of figuring out their human rights concerns.

Third, some companies, for example, companies that have been inspired by a former President of Ireland, Mrs. Mary Robinson, have begun to use the norms in their own company codes of conduct. For example, Barclays Bank, Novo Nordisk and other companies have pledged to road test the norms to find whether they can be used in the company context. This is also an important initiative whereby the norms are having an effect. The norms fill an extremely important gap in the international human rights system and deserve the support of the committee.

I found the presentation fascinating, in so far as I understood it.

Professor Weissbrodt

Perhaps I was too theoretical.

No, the problem is my intellectual capacity to absorb the information. I come from a fairly sceptical viewpoint in regard to corporate social responsibility. How is compliance or enforcement of these norms achieved? I think, for example, of the Shell Corporation producing oil in Nigeria under one type of human rights regime, refining it in France and selling it in Ireland, although I accept this might not be a perfect example. I think also of a major financial institution that would invest in an enterprise in one country which might undermine the economic stability of, say, an African country — for example, through the oversupply of coffee, cotton or otherwise. How would the norms be enforced in these instances? I visited South America and witnessed the activities of North American multinational companies there in flooding the market. Perhaps I am not making myself clear but the professor may have an idea what I am trying to get at.

Professor Weissbrodt

I will try to make this issue more concrete to assist the Deputy. He asked important questions and I apologise if I was too theoretical in my presentation.

I am supposed to be studying this issue so this is a useful tutorial for me.

Professor Weissbrodt

Let us consider the case of Shell because it provides an opportunity for us to think about these issues. The committee will know that Shell was accused of being implicated in the killing of that significant Nigerian environmental activist, Ken Sara Wiwa. It was also clear that Shell was having difficulty with the ethnic group in the area where the oil was being extracted. After all, extraction industries have a real problem because they do not get to choose where the oil is. This represented a real challenge and there were serious concerns about how Shell was treating its neighbours in that context.

In the set of norms, there is a section on security issues that tries to track the UN standards on this issue and also a set of voluntary standards that have been developed by the oil industry which state, essentially, that a company must keep control over its security guards and not let them kill its neighbours. While I am not telling the committee anything it does not know, these norms would be relevant to a critique of what Shell was doing at that time. However, Shell then engaged in a very important self-education process in which it accepted the need to learn about human rights and to apply them in the context of its operations. It, more than many other companies and after having experienced those serious problems, tried to make human rights part of its company culture and began to issue statements about what it wanted to do in this regard.

At the same time, however, it had some problems. If members have been reading the business press in recent days, they would know that Shell misstated its oil reserves by some 20%. This is related to the human rights issue because the 20% is mostly oil it would have extracted from Nigeria but for the fact it is having so much trouble with its neighbours there. In addition, it misstated or failed to foresee the labour problems it is now experiencing in the same context. Therefore, Shell cannot take as much oil from that area as it stated when it calculated its reserves. The market reacted and the Shell stock price dropped sharply. Shell had to reform and change the entire company structure so that it is no longer a British-Dutch company but a unified company.

This is an example of the market reflecting some of the principles already incorporated in the norms but existing outside the norms. The market is beginning to respond to these issues and, therefore, is implementing the norms in that context.

I have more difficulty with the other issue raised by the Deputy — the question of the flooding of markets with goods. I cannot think of any UN human rights or other human rights principles that are violated by this. While it may be a problem or a bad market practice, we are not trying to solve all the problems of the world. We talk about consumer rights but, if one considers the document, we mostly deal with issues of fraud and products that might be dangerous, not the issue raised by the Deputy. We do not try to cover every issue.

I have a number of fundamental points to raise. Many years ago I was making a documentary on the United Nations conference on economics and development in Rio de Janeiro when I witnessed the arrival of what was called the business council for sustainable development. The council was chaired by the head of Nestlé of Switzerland and the vice-chair, who I remember interviewing, was an executive of Fiat. Importantly for the international institutions, the business council for sustainable development was controversially allowed by the then Assistant Secretary General of the UN to have the status of a sovereign country in regard to the discussions. I have watched the development of the council since that time and there has not been an enormous revolution in regard to binding ethical principles.

I welcome Professor Weissbrodt and I record the significant achievement that has allowed the UN High Commissioner of Human Rights to have corporate responsibility as an agenda for human rights. That is a significant achievement. However, I see great problems and I do not share this optimism for the reform of multinationals, an optimism to which the professor must subscribe to continue. We are listening to a very different discourse on this committee. We have had representations from a raft of organisations that represent, among others, women and children in Guatemala whose conditions of labour have worsened rather than improved. I could speak of the same conditions for the workers in Nicaragua, a country with which I am familiar and have visited six or seven times. We once had a presentation on bonded labour, which did not lead to representatives of the Government of Pakistan suggesting that they welcomed our interest, but rather that the presentation was a slur on the Government of Pakistan. That is our discourse. We listen every day to stories of conditions getting worse. We had a series of representations on behalf of those looking for the right to organise in factories in Colombia. We had a detailed presentation of the intersection between a repressive business sector and the government and executions of trade unionists. As it occurred in the district rather than on the factory floor, a great argument emerged.

That is the discourse we are hearing. I am not here to present difficulties, but there are aspects of international capitalism that I am not sure the professor recognises. The oil reserves in the district occupied by the Ogoni people are not the oil resources of Shell. Many people would say that they are the resources of the Ogoni people and of Nigeria. It is not a case of extracting ethical behaviour from the multinational corporations in Africa as they are leaving. The amount of foreign direct investment in China, with its human rights record, is ten times the total foreign direct investment in the entire continent of Africa. What is behind that? We are no longer talking about the times when the norms for international law evolved. We are no longer talking about putting disciplines on corporations that were trading corporations, because the movement of money shows that we no longer have a global trading economy, as Manuel Castells and others would point out. Speculative money in one week equals a year's trading. Therefore, we are talking about a form of capital that is unamenable to any control. The multinational corporations have to move to what is left of the economy, and a crucial change there is the insatiable greed of shareholders. It has entirely changed from the time that this discussion even began, when a company would produce a balance sheet, a profit and loss and trading account, to one in which it produces quarterly forecasts, monthly sales forecasts and so on.

I see the ethical response shrinking, not expanding. I am sorry to be the person who mentions it, but in the developed world, where one would expect the human rights response to be the most amenable ground for application, the working day is longer. The working life is longer and pension securities are lessening. The average blue collar worker in the US works 47 hours more than he did in the 1970s to stay in the same place. I appreciate the interest in people evolving a consideration of what might be the ethical behaviour of corporations, but I see unethical behaviour of corporations to be operating at such a pace that it is almost like attempting to run up a descending escalator. I wish the people well in doing this and I will try to be positive. International law itself, from which all of this derives, is at its lowest ebb since I started in politics. The Wilson Quarterly had an instructive edition last year with the bold title on front: “Is international law any good?”. There is a body of opinion in the US that holds that only something that can be derived from its constitution has any validity. It raises questions on what it terms the Rome court, which is the International Criminal Court. There is a massive movement away from international law by the strongest economy in the world. There is a total disrespect for international institutions with a suggestion of a principle of pre-emption, which is a flagrant violation of international law.

It was a great moment when Mary Robinson became the first UN Human Rights Commissioner in Geneva. However, I must raise questions about the business council for sustainable development. The most recent version of that is a kind of ethical version of globalisation. Can we have ethical globalisation when at a pace of knots it is screwing people into the ground and where child labour is not decreasing in places such as Pakistan or India? Most of the major foreign direct investment is heading for China, with no guarantee of rights compliance. I do not believe that the new international capitalism will be converted in the lifetime of the professor or in my own lifetime. If it were ever possible, I would certainly favour a mandatory, enforceable code. Amnesty International and Christian Aid are right to lend their support to where the optimistic might be and to see optimism in so doing. However, there are contradictions that strike me about it. Yesterday, we examined the income for the 48 heavily indebted countries. Their oil resources are the fifth largest in the world. Are they theirs? Can the Professor tell me realistically that Shell has been converted to regard the Ogoni people as good neighbours? The reality is that there are Ogoni people throughout the world, in the illegally occupied Sahara Arab Democratic Republic, formerly Spanish Sahara. There are international contracts for oil and international breaches in the fishing resources of El Ayun. I could go on.

The notion that we will wake up one day with an ethically reformed new capitalism in the technological age is something to which I cannot subscribe. On the other hand, if there are increasing efforts through inter-state alliances, it is far more hopeful. An example of this is to look at what is happening on the continent of Latin America. Repressive regimes, puppet regimes and regimes that have been given money from outside are being replaced by admittedly more incoherent but poverty oriented regimes. The inter-state alliance may eventually change the ideological pressure on the Organisation of American States. I see more hope in that.

I wish all my normative comrades well as they progress the normative expectation. However, I feel that I must describe the terrain. I do so because of the people who have come in here with the assistance of NGOs. We had people in representing children picking coffee in deteriorating conditions in seven Central American states. We had people in describing the conditions in Colombia, where one cannot even go to court. We had representations from countries where the lawyers were assassinated. As a Sub-Committee on Human Rights of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs, our impatience is understandable over having to wait for a legal text which in the end will rely on moral suasion and will have no legal import whatever.

I would not dream of attempting to follow that.

Vice-Chairman

I would like to raise two other aspects briefly. One was touched on briefly by Deputy Michael D. Higgins concerning the perception in Ireland of American contempt for international treaties and institutions, specifically the UN. During the recent presidential election, the UN was pilloried throughout the United States. If we are to accept that because of the inaccurate dissemination of news, a majority of Americans believe Saddam Hussein was responsible for the events of 11 September 2001, they must also believe that the United Nations is the devil incarnate in so far as American interests are concerned. Amnesty International operates within that environment.

Professor Weissbrodt referred to the 75,000 corporations. I suggest the majority of those are US-based or organically involved from America outwards to other countries. Keeping that in mind, did the Enron scandal change the face of American corporate business? There appears to have been a general tightening up in accountability to ensure another Enron situation does not occur. There were human rights dimensions to the Enron scandal. People lost pensions and thousands of dollars. That to me is a human rights scandal. Where do the norms come into play with all that? That is to underline what Deputy Michael D. Higgins has said. It seems that as a paper, this is a noble aspiration. I am not attempting to diminish its importance in any way. It is important, but is it not the case that Amnesty International is struggling against the mainstream and that this is a pebble being fired at a mountain?

Professor Weissbrodt

It is quite a challenge to respond to these two sets of remarks and the eloquence of the committee. In the process of drafting the norms I had the privilege of being invited by the World Business Council for Sustainable Development to address a group of its member companies and others in March 2001. They provided input for the document itself. I am so pleased to hear of Deputy Michael D. Higgins's involvement in the Rio Declaration on Environment and Development, which was one of the initial starting points for international concern about the right to a healthy environment. That document is cited in the norms and is taken into account in the provisions relating to the environment.

I should say, however, that this document is not a panacea. It is an effort to respond to the realities this sub-committee has heard about the rights of women workers, bonded and enforced labour, union rights, child labour etc. I prefer to light a candle rather than to curse the darkness. The document represents an effort which responds to those realities. Non-governmental organisations such as Amnesty International, Christian Aid and Oxfam have seen this document, I suggest, with due humility and regard it as an extremely important initiative in dealing with the realities mentioned by members of the sub-committee. I would urge members to see it as a response to the difficulties of globalisation mentioned by Deputy Michael D. Higgins. After all, Ireland has an important reputation in supporting human rights and this sub-committee is part of that. Ireland also has an important reputation for its vibrant business community and so it is in a strategic position to support a document such as this which makes some effort to bring together the prosperity that has occurred in this country along with the respect for human rights that pertains here.

I am troubled by developments as regards the degree of respect given to the UN Charter and international law by certain elements within the present US Administration. I have several points to make on that. The first is that it is not forever. It may be for four more years but it should not be taken as continuing forever. Second, even the United States needs international law. It needs the World Trade Organisation as well as the World Telecommunications Agency and is dependent on all sorts of international co-operation in its war on terrorism. International law has not gone away in the United States. It is just being emphasised in some areas and not in others. I am not sure whether witnesses are allowed to ask questions, but I would ask the sub-committee whether Ireland should follow the US lead. My answer to that is "No". Smaller countries than the United States need international law even more in the present context than they did before. They need the United Nations and multilateral institutions even more than before. It would be letting down the side to listen to these voices which sometimes come from across the Atlantic.

This document is one that responds to these needs, yet has the support of civil society. Interestingly enough, it also has strong support from developing countries. Suffering the many problems they do, as Deputy Michael D. Higgins mentioned, they see that when faced with the great power of transnational corporations, they need a tool to respond to it. This document provides such a tool in order that when they are asked by a big company to give in on issues important to their own societies, they can point to the international standards that already exist and are summarised in the norms.

I would encourage the sub-committee to take a positive approach to this document because it makes an important step. It is not a panacea, as I mentioned. However, it is a step towards binding legal standards which Deputy Michael D. Higgins said he supported. For example, let us take the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Before that document there was a declaration on the rights of the child. Before there was a convention on racism at the UN there was a declaration. Every single human rights treaty has been preceded by a soft law document such as the one we are presenting. If that is where the sub-committee wants to go, this is the step it needs to take.

We have had a good discussion and I am sure the Chairman would like to thank Professor Weissbrodt for that on behalf of all the members of the sub-committee. I wish to clarify our respective positions as regards international law. If one looks, for example, at the work of my colleague, Professor William Schabas, on the abolition of capital punishment, the United States has gone into reverse on that and we expect a regression on this in several states. I do not want to appear to be offering merely a leftist position, but I have examined such issues as the "three-strike" notion, the idea of losing one's rights for voting, the enormous numbers of young black males in prison etc. There is no question of Ireland following the US example. One must remember that it was a UN suggestion that was later reconsidered. It is when the most powerful nations accept international law, something perhaps not immediately in their interest, that it becomes a reality. It is a right-wing view in the United States to suggest that international law is something that weak countries should have but that rich countries can afford to do without. For example, I deliberately referred to the flood of foreign direct investment into China without significant guarantees on human rights. The volume has been enormous, but that is something with which we need not deal today.

I light many candles in my life, but I still recognise the darkness. There have been great moments, such as the speeches by Adlai Stevenson and others, when people in the United States said it was very interesting. People do not say it very often, but we have enjoyed people from the United States attending. I studied and taught in a university there. We are now regularly accused, because of our critical views, of being anti-American. Many of us subscribe to the view that people from the United States are welcome and charming and that their popularity throughout the world was at its height when the United States subscribed to an advanced version of international law. It was not an advance simply on basic rights but in all sorts of ways. If China can join the World Trade Organisation, WTO, without making significant concessions on human rights, 30% more crude oil can be exported from Russia with no concessions on human rights, and Nigeria can produce $20 billion of oil yet slip three places when it comes to protecting its citizens from poverty, I see darkness.

However, I have no difficulty with this document about which I am being positive. I am sure we all wish it well. One will understand the concerns of members who have heard direct descriptions of lives being ruined, for example, by the collapse of the international coffee market, which affected families in various countries. Children are losing their childhood, and life expectancy is falling rather than increasing in certain countries. My remarks are therefore made from a sense of urgency stemming from what the committee has had presented to it.

Vice-Chairman

The consensus seems to be that Professor Weissbrodt's work is vitally important. His point about the process leading to binding conventions is valid in this context. As Deputy Higgins has so eloquently put it, and not for the first time, we have witnessed a parade of misery through this sub-committee that has come primarily, although not exclusively, as a result of the negative aspects of globalisation. One feels somewhat cynical about even the most noble of efforts. However, I am sure that Deputy Higgins and other members will join me in wishing the professor continued success in his efforts to get the message across. I will give him an opportunity to respond, but I thank him most sincerely for allowing us this important dialogue. It is obviously an issue that will remain uppermost on the sub-committee's agenda.

Professor Weissbrodt

I thank the Chairman for his kind comments. We share the committee's concerns. Perhaps I might be concrete. The members have said very nice things about our important efforts. Although I speak with an accent that is indubitably from North America, I come as one of 26 members from 26 different countries. Perhaps, when I am not here, the sub-committee might wish to deliberate and ask the Department of Foreign Affairs to support this document when it comes before the UN Commission on Human Rights. That would be a way to make a contribution as a sub-committee to the process, perhaps making faster progress on it than my realistic estimate.

Vice-Chairman

Absolutely. Perhaps, as an initiative by the sub-committee, we might ask the Department of Foreign Affairs, on foot of this exchange of views, for the Irish position. If necessary, we could invite a representative from the Department to give us the Government view in order that we keep it on the agenda. However, I know that the professor would not have interpreted our remarks about the current US Administration's policies as being in any way personal because of his American accent. I am sure that Deputy Higgins has other examples, but I could not help but reflect on France whose major companies continue to trade with the discredited Burmese regime despite all the moral persuasion to the contrary. Negativity and badness are not exclusive to the United States of America in the context of corporate accountability. I am sure that there are many other examples.

I am very grateful to the professor and to the Irish section of Amnesty International for arranging this initiative. I hope that he enjoys the remainder of his stay in Ireland and look forward to meeting him again.

Professor Weissbrodt

Thank you. It has been a great pleasure.

The sub-committee went into private session at 1.05 p.m. and adjourned at 1.15 p.m sine die.

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