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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 26 Apr 2005

White Paper on Development Co-operation: Ministerial Presentation.

The first item on the agenda is a discussion with the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Conor Lenihan, on the proposed White Paper on development co-operation. I welcome the Minister of State who will address the joint committee on the Government's proposal to introduce a White Paper on development co-operation and who will take on board the views of members. I also welcome the officials from the Department, Mr. Ronan Murphy, director general of Development Co-operation Ireland, Mr. Brendan Rogers, whom I congratulate on his recent appointment as deputy director general — he will be well known to members from his previous role — Mr. Frank Sheridan, whom members also know, Mr. John Morahan, Mr. Ronan Corvin and Mr. Ciaran Madden.

I look forward to receiving the White Paper, which is expected to be ready for publication in the first half of 2006, as soon as possible. The joint committee welcomes the proposal of the Minister of State to engage in a broad based consultation process. It is useful to commence this process with a discussion at the committee, particularly in view of our active interest and involvement in this area, notably through the Sub-committee on Development Co-operation, of which Senator Michael Kitt is Chairman. It will be of assistance to us, when the consultation period is nearing a conclusion, if the Minister of State would return to the joint committee to report on the consultations and their impact on the Government's thinking on the White Paper. I ask the Minister of State to commence with the presentation, after which we will hear the views of members.

I apologise for interrupting but I must leave the meeting at 2.25 p.m. to attend the Order of Business in the Seanad. This should not be taken as a slight as I would like to stay for the full meeting. I have read the Minister of State's interesting paper but regret I must leave officially to take the Order of Business.

I am in exactly the same position as the Leader of the Seanad.

Senator Norris must put questions to me.

The Minister of State will now proceed.

I thank the Chairman for his kind welcome and positive remarks. It is important that I report, first and foremost, to the joint committee and then return to it before we complete our work and draft the White Paper. The Department would welcome a formal contribution or submission from the joint committee to influence our work on the White Paper. I am grateful to members for inviting me to speak about the proposed White Paper. The committee plays a vital role in the development and evolution of foreign policy. As Minister of State with responsibility for development co-operation, I welcome the opportunity to offer it a picture of the work in which Development Co-operation Ireland is engaged and our plans for the White Paper.

The Irish public showed extraordinary compassion and generosity following the Asian tsunami disaster. Many people have also engaged in the discussion on Ireland's commitment to meet the United Nations target figure of 0.7% of GNP for development assistance. This may give an impression that the public as a whole is engaged and familiar with the work of Development Co-operation Ireland. However, since my appointment as Minister of State, I have become conscious that much of the work we do on overseas development remains unseen by the public. In the meantime, our spending on development co-operation continues to increase. In the not too distant future we face the prospect of being allocated an annual development budget exceeding €1 billion. In these circumstances, it is essential that the public is better informed of how we spend such large sums of its money.

We in Development Co-operation Ireland do not have a monopoly on the best ideas. We alone do not know how to ensure that the best value is obtained for taxpayers' money. We have reports which praise our programme. In 2003, the OECD described it as being at the cutting edge of best development practice. My own assessment is that we have done very well thus far but can do better. We are leaders not laggards in development co-operation. I make those remarks deliberately, particularly in light of recent comments, on which this morning's newspapers commented, directed at the Canadian Prime Minister by Bono.

On a per capita basis, Ireland is the ninth largest donor in the world and we wish to remain world leaders by achieving the 0.7% of GNP target within a reasonable timeframe. I have stressed since taking office that we need to adopt a target which is both realistic and achievable rather than unrealistic and unobtainable.

The process of preparing a White Paper acknowledges that we are open to adopting new ideas. We recognise that others in society, even those without any previous involvement in development, can make a useful and innovative contribution to this process, which also affords an opportunity to inform the public of what Development Co-operation Ireland is and does in the developing world on behalf of the public. I am holding a series of public meetings throughout the country at which ordinary citizens may make contributions. Wherever these take place, I am also arranging to meet local opinion formers and persons of influence from the community, including trade union leaders, members of the clergy, employers, representatives of farming communities and heads of academic institutions.

At national level, I am particularly pleased to be able to meet with this committee. Its members are in a special position of guiding and informing public opinion. It would be inconceivable to embark upon this process without meeting the committee and hearing its views. I am grateful that it has found time to invite me here while we are still at the early stage of our White Paper consultations.

Almost as soon as I announced my intention to prepare a White Paper, two questions were put to me. I would like to briefly dispose of these now. The first question relates to whether the White Paper is a long-fingering exercise aimed at postponing a decision on when Ireland may achieve the 0.7% of GNP target. My answer to it is a categoric no. This is not a long-fingering exercise. I am confident that a decision on a new timetable of achieving 0.7% of GNP, and on a substantial increase in programme spending in coming years, will be agreed by the Government within the next month or so. It will certainly be agreed before the Taoiseach travels to the millennium development goals summit in New York with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and me. We want that issue to be resolved. We do not want the White Paper to be dominated by it. We want it to be about the success story that unfolds from our efforts to achieve the figure of 0.7%. We are already a great success in development terms and we want to build on that success.

The second question relates to whether there is any point in introducing a White Paper at this stage, particularly when a review report, on what was then called Ireland Aid, was published as recently as 2002. The answer to that is yes. While the 2002 review was an extremely good report which is still valid, it remains essentially a report. A White Paper, on the other hand, is a statement of official Government policy. We have never had a White Paper on ODA before. It allows for a wider debate and encourages new thinking against the background of anticipated growth. It stimulates discussion on appropriate aid modalities. In short, it offers the possibility of added value and formal adoption that was denied the 2002 review. It will be the Government's template for guiding Irish development policy in the coming years.

It is noteworthy that the UK has had several White Papers over the years to fine tune its development policies. Some of our other European neighbours and friends tend to engage in regular White Paper exercises when reshaping their overseas development programmes. According to the development assistance committee chairman of the OECD, Richard Manning, it encourages countries to draw up White Papers as part of the development of aid programmes. The OECD recommends that they should be produced in seven, eight and ten-year cycles and that they should not happen on a once-off basis and then be just abandoned.

I will outline the timetable and process I have put in place for preparation of the White Paper. Last January, I placed advertisements in the national press announcing my intention to produce a White Paper. I invited submissions from any interested parties by the end of April. Already a number of such submissions have been sent to the Department. However, I have received, and agreed to, requests from a number of organisations for an extension of the submissions deadline. The deadline was a false one in the sense in that we were merely trying to prompt activity and submissions. If people — be they citizens, NGOs or other organisations — want to make submissions, we are open to receiving them right up to the end because we are anxious hear people's views. There are many more things we need to learn, particularly in 2005 when there has been an increase in the level of interest in development policy from ordinary citizens and organisations alike. I take it as a good sign that people are making a particular effort to prepare useful and informed presentations.

I already mentioned the public consultations I am organising throughout the country. I should emphasise that my purpose in attending these meetings is to listen and learn. I do not see them as a pretext to defend the current levels of funding or modalities of assistance. Our first public meeting took place in Limerick two weeks ago and I will be in Waterford tomorrow night for the second. We will continue to hold meetings until May. There will be further meetings in other parts of the country at a later date. Lest we cause offence to anybody from the north east or north west, they will be catered for in the following round. We are not confining our public consultations to a line below Dublin-Athlone-Galway. We will be going north of that line in September and we will furnish the committee with the key times and dates of those meetings in the not too distant future so that members can prepare for them in their constituencies.

In addition to these public meetings, I will be meeting UN agencies and other multilateral partners in New York and Geneva. One of the most striking features of such agencies is that, at present, some prominent Irish people are serving in their upper echelons. We should also consult these individuals. We have punched above our weight for a number of years in diplomatic and world terms and we now see an increase in our presence at UN level. Irish people have taken positions in the middle to upper echelons of the UN and other international agencies. These people have a great deal to contribute to our knowledge of those institutions and of development issues generally.

My Department will also closely examine the work of our EU partners and other major donors, many of whom have undergone similar exercises in recent years. In September, the regular development forum convened by the advisory board to Development Co-operation Ireland will be greatly expanded to facilitate a further consultation on the White Paper. While the organisation of that meeting will be primarily for the advisory board, I understand that participants will be drawn from academia, trade unions, business and the political parties. These will be in addition to the usual attendees from the NGO and missionary communities as well as other interested parties at home and abroad.

Following the formal consultations, I hope that informal consultations will continue while we analyse the submissions and the issues that have been raised in the preceding months. We will also reflect on whether we have consulted widely enough. I wish to be certain about this process. I want to be sure that no potentially useful input has been overlooked. I envisage that a draft of the White Paper will be ready by the end of the year. It should be circulated to other Departments early in 2006. A final version should be presented to the Government for approval shortly thereafter.

While we are still at the early stages, I am pleased with the reaction so far to the proposal for a White Paper and with the level of interest shown by the public. There was a good turnout at the meeting in Limerick and a lively and lengthy discussion took place. It is not easy to draw a crowd for public meetings. I do not have to tell committee members how difficult it is to organise meetings and to obtain a good attendance at constituency level. Our first meeting shows that many people are genuinely interested in and committed to development assistance. I hope, as we continue our series of meetings, that we can build incrementally on that level of interest and commitment.

The development debate in Ireland in recent months has been dominated by discussion of the Government's approach to the UN target of 0.7% and of the timescale and volumes of assistance involved. I have already said that I believe we will have a Government decision on this before the UN summit in September. This issue should not be allowed to monopolise our agenda.

The 0.7% target was raised at the meeting in Limerick but I was pleased that many other matters — including trade and development, development education, the role of the media and what the private sector can and should do — were also discussed. Debt and debt relief for developing countries was also raised in Limerick, again reflecting the broad understanding that aid is not a simple issue of increasing aid volumes, that there are interrelated concepts of trade, debt and volumes of overseas aid. It is important to address all these issues, as well as the particular challenges that Development Co-operation Ireland faces.

We must guarantee proper management of the programme as the aid budget grows. We must address, in an open and transparent manner, any issue of governance that might arise in our programme countries. We must be in a position to offer the public reassurance in terms of obtaining value for money as our budget expands. We must also examine the aid modalities we employ in our partner countries and ensure we find the right mix that corresponds to our expertise and guarantees value for money. We must consider whether, and in what countries, we might open new programmes. We must also consider our commitment to the United Nations and its agencies.

In addition, we must reinforce our already close ties. This has been recognised with the appointment of the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, as special envoy of the Secretary General of the UN. I do not say that lightly. Almost everywhere I travel these days, I and my officials are complimented on the commitments we are making in overseas aid. It is no accident that stellar figures in the development world, ranging from Jim Wolfensohn to Kofi Annan and the heads of many UN agencies, pay high tribute to the Irish overseas aid programme. It is because of this, some of the commitments we made regarding overseas development, our stewardship of the Security Council and our successful Presidency of the European Union that the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, has been picked as an envoy. We are making our commitment at a global level. These appointments are not made lightly but in light of the contribution the country is making. It is not just a matter of the personality and character of the person in question but also a matter of the personality and character of the country and the extent of its contribution to development as a global citizen.

We must also ensure that, when faced with disaster, we maintain the same level of expert and professional response that we showed in the aftermath of the tsunami. We must rise to the challenge of Development Co-operation Ireland's decentralisation to Limerick. We must ensure a smooth transition that allows us to maintain our present high standards of service and delivery. All of these challenges, including decentralisation, will place additional heavy demands on the staff and management of Development Co-operation Ireland.

I hope that, through the White Paper process, we can encourage a wide-ranging public debate. Over the next three years, the Government will spend at least €1.8 billion of public money on overseas aid. This is an enormous sum. How we spend it demands a considered public debate. Such a debate can only increase the visibility of the Development Co-operation Ireland programme. In the process, it should create a greater sense of public ownership. Success in this can only serve to strengthen the programme in the future.

It is very important to make clear at the outset that we are not starting with a blank slate in the preparation of the White Paper. As I stated, we already have an aid programme of very high quality. We operate in line with international best practice and, in some areas, we are shaping that best practice. Therefore, to some degree at least, we will set out in the White Paper existing principles and practices that have brought us to where we are. Policy coherence, untied aid, local ownership, strengthened partnership, enhanced harmonisation and a focus on results are at the core of our programme. The White paper will reiterate and, I hope, underpin these principles. It will ensure that the principles continue to obtain.

The White Paper should also recognise that the aid programme is not, and should not be, static and immutable. This will be the first ever White Paper devoted to overseas development. In 1996, Dick Spring, the then Tánaiste, published an excellent White Paper that addressed development issues as part of our wider foreign policy. However, at a time when Ireland, given its size, has become one of the world's most significant donors and with further increases in prospect, it is important to set out clearly our policy in a single, dedicated text.

Many of our EU partners have undertaken similar exercises and some have done so a number of times. This is our first time. I do not under estimate the size of the task we have taken on, nor do I under estimate the mass of detail through which we will have to sift. However, in this process, we should not lose sight of the basic fact that we live in an unequal world, in which half the population lives on less than €2 per day and in which a third of its children will never see the inside of a classroom. We should not forget that we and our partners are trying, and have a duty, to address this inequality.

I look forward to hearing members' views, which I know will be offered in a positive and constructive spirit. I will also be happy to try to answer any questions they may have. Over the coming months, I will be happy to return to this committee, whenever it wishes, to update it on progress. I invite the committee to make a formal submission on the White Paper.

Ireland is the ninth most significant per capita donor but, in terms of its donor status and contributions, it has the opportunity to become the world’s leading practitioner in the area of development. I do not say this lightly but because my short experience in this ministry has drawn a vital point to my attention, that is, Ireland is a trusted country because of its colonial experience. That we were colonised means we have unique experience and knowledge to offer to countries that have had a similar experience. By coincidence, this includes most of the countries we serve in sub-Saharan Africa. Consequently, we have a unique role to play.

Many people, not just those in central and eastern Europe but also those in Africa and other developing countries, regard Ireland as a model of how to become a member of the European Union and how to transform one's fortunes by progressing from a poor, less well-performing country to one of the wealthiest and most affluent societies on earth. People are looking to Ireland and we can respond and become the best in this area, as we have done in a wide variety of other areas pertaining to our economic and social lives.

I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive coverage of Ireland's position. He listed some very interesting facts, particularly the fact that he is confident regarding a decision on a new timetable for achieving the target of 0.7% of GNP. The substantial increase in programme spending over the coming years will be agreed by Government within the next month or so, certainly before the Taoiseach travels to the millennium development goals summit in September. This makes it clear that there is no intention to use the reviewing process as a means of postponement. The committee would like to have a fairly strong input into the decision, which is likely to be made within a month or two. It is a key issue in terms of the review. The Minister of State is providing an opportunity to have a broad review. This is certainly very welcome throughout the country and at this committee. There are many issues that can be discussed in that context.

How much would be required to meet the target by 2007? How much would be required to meet it by each of the years from 2008 to 2012, inclusive? I presume this has been estimated. I know the figures would only be indicative because we do not know the pace at which GDP will grow. It has been predicted that there will be a growth in GDP of 5% over the next few years. Growth has been higher in recent years. If the Minister of State provides us with estimates, it will help us to put forward a case on a timeframe for reaching the target of 0.7% of GNP.

I can give a quick response to that question. The last time I was before the committee, I stated that if we were to meet the target within the 2007 time frame, as originally proposed in 2000, we would require increases of an extra €180 million each year for the years 2005, 2006 and 2007. To reach it by 2012, one would have to increase spending from the current rate of €545 million to approximately €1.5 billion. I say "approximately" because I do not wish to be imprecise. As the Chairman implied, prognostications on growth vary between the ESRI, the Department of Finance and the Central Bank, which do not always sing from the same hymn sheet. Economics is not an exact science and cannot predict the future. However, I will circulate to the committee information, based on current projections, on the increments in spending required to meet our targets by each of the years up to 2015.

There is no need to go beyond 2012.

I am choosing 2015 because it is the year by which Kofi Annan has required us to achieve our target. I am obviously anticipating that we will achieve it before then.

I have no further questions and will give the members of the committee an opportunity to contribute.

I welcome the Minister of State. He gave us a very comprehensive report without saying very much. He presented his case with all of the skills of a silver-tongued salesman. I am not convinced, however, that this exercise is anything more than a fig leaf to cover the abysmal reneging on the commitment given by the Taoiseach to reach the 0.7% of GNP target for overseas aid. The Minister of State spoke about reasonable timeframes and used other vague terms. I presume the decision that is being made within two months is to bail out the Taoiseach when he returns to the scene of the crime in September.

I had assumed we would be provided with specific figures in respect of meeting the target today. The Minister of State referred to 2012 in a radio interview. With the rate of increase in the budget in the past two years and based on the current GNP, it will be 2028 before we reach the target. I hope to see a vast improvement in contributions in the coming years.

The tsunami disaster was used as an excuse for not adhering to the target, with a suggestion that the NGOs did not have the capacity to spend the huge amounts of money donated to them. It was suggested, even before the tsunami, that NGOs would find it difficult to spend the money if the target was reached. Have any NGOs responded to those assertions?

I attended a conference last week at which I met people involved in disease eradication in Africa. Having spoken about our great reputation because of our colonial past, those people expressed to me that their trust and confidence in Ireland has been eroded by our reneging on the 0.7% commitment.

On disease eradication and infant mortality, has the Department spoken to the vaccine manufacturers or drug companies on research and development on vaccines for malaria, tuberculosis and other killer diseases? Has the Department received any proposals on speeding up research and development? I came back from the meeting deflated because I was told that the earliest date for vaccines for malaria and tuberculosis could be 2012. Research and development is hindered by the lack of resources available to these companies because they doubted there would be a viable return on the research and development costs for the creation of vaccines. Have public private projects between Governments and drug companies been considered? Aid funding could be given to drug companies in return for a guarantee of at cost vaccines if and when the vaccines are developed.

I await with interest the submissions that will be made at the regional meetings — I hope to attend the one to be held in Cork in May. Listening to the organisations, they despair of the Government ever reaching the targets set in the commitment made by the Taoiseach.

Most of the NGOs I meet privately acknowledge they are happy with the current commitment from Government and that they want to see the 0.7% target achieved in a planned and progressive manner. Everyone is disappointed that it will not be achieved by 2007 but, having absorbed that message, people are happy that we are taking a proper, planned and realistic approach. I came with some figures for specific amounts required and I dealt with that in my response to the Chairman.

I am not clear what question the Deputy is asking about the tsunami and the NGOs.

It was not a question, it was a comment about the NGOs' capacity to spend the money.

That is an issue. There was a huge outpouring of generosity and the Department is anxious——

I said the issue of their capacity was raised before the tsunami and just after we established that the 0.7% commitment would not be honoured by the Government.

I am not clear what question the Deputy is asking but in reply there are obvious capacity constraints for everyone involved in development. Jeffrey Sachs acknowledges there is a capacity in Africa to sustain a 30% across the board increase in volumes of overseas aid. This implies, however, that if an increase is set at 30%, it could not be 45% or 50%. It is a basic idea in all organisations that there is an obvious capacity and that is why it is desirable that we have a planned approach to the achievement of the 0.7% figure. It implies a huge increase in the level of overseas aid in which we are involved.

We are in contact with drug companies and are actively pursuing the possibility of private and public sector co-operation in disease eradication in Africa and other parts of the developing world. I met Hilary Benn, the British Cabinet Minister responsible for overseas aid, on the British general AIDS vaccine initiative which also covers malaria and we will make a financial contribution to that. We also made a key commitment to the Clinton Foundation, a joint public private initiative that is designed to leverage more funding into the area of an AIDS vaccine from Government sources and the private sector. We are also one of the leading donors to UNAIDS, which was established to widen the debate and make it more coherent.

The Deputy is right about malaria. Jeffrey Sachs, whom I met a week ago, said we needed to concentrate on a series of quick wins. One such quick win is the distribution of malaria nets in parts of Africa where the problem of disease control and prevention is simple — there are not enough nets to protect people from infection. He has focused the world community's efforts on that in the context of the millennium development goals.

In one of the most difficult areas in Uganda that we visited, Gulu, the best work was being done by Development Co-operation Ireland, in conjunction with the local people, and it was very effective. It is important to recognise that some things are known and do not require further research. The problem is the lack of money to spread the knowledge. There was no capacity problem in Gulu, the difficulty related to a lack of money for buying more nets. As the Minister of State said, it is one of the most effective ways to prevent malaria.

The cure for leprosy was discovered in Ireland. There is much talk of research today but we should promote the fact that researchers in the past did marvellous work. When the Minister of State is in Waterford he could visit the former leper hospital on St. John's Hill. There is a significant tradition in that field and there may be many people willing to invest large sums in it.

This is also true of Dr. Concepta Merry, whom the Minister of State has probably met, and Mr. Coakley, both of whom worked in Uganda. They are setting up an information service for most of the sub-Saharan region with assistance from Development Co-operation Ireland. Money is the only obstacle to this work. Talk of capacity is irritating because Irish people conduct significant research, through NGOs and Development Co-operation Ireland.

I spent some years in research and one of the most serious problems I encountered was duplication of research rather than action on that knowledge. Many learned people talk about worldwide trends but one learns more on the ground. There is great opportunity for expenditure and no capacity problems.

I welcome the Minister of State. He is courageous to embark on this White Paper process with such a wide-ranging remit. I approve of its general thrust.

Legislation normally proceeds from a White Paper. Will the Minister of State consider bringing in legislation that will enshrine the figure of 0.7% or a higher percentage? While I do not doubt the commitment of the Minister of State, or his predecessor, to this percentage, there may in time be others in office who do not give overseas aid the same priority. I urge the Minister of State to consider that measure rather than be accused of having produced a work of fiction.

There can be no discussion of overseas aid without reference to the EU constitutional treaty and its expression of EU external policy. This committee could consider such issues in its submission to the White Paper. Without bandying about the Lisbon or Barcelona processes, the EU approach to foreign policy will impinge on our ability and determination to address issues such as overseas aid.

The Minister of State adverted to the issues of fair trade and debt relief. What will be the position of the White Paper on globalisation, world trade talks and so on? That theme will recur and the Minister of State is correct to say that the White Paper should not be a once-off statement by Ireland. We should revisit it every decade or thereabouts. Has the Minister of State considered the position of the paper on globalisation?

The principles will be the key to the paper. I have seen some of the work of Development Co-operation Ireland, although not as much as I would like, and been impressed by how it addresses issues such as governance which is fundamental to its work. The Chairman and I visited some of Development Co-operation Ireland's education projects in various African countries. While I was impressed at one level, I was somewhat depressed by the apparent lack of investment in career training for teachers, and in curriculum development. Maybe I saw the wrong projects but that is an area we ought to consider.

Working with our partners in the European Community would be a good way forward rather than trying to work alone, for a range of reasons. If we are beginning to broaden and deepen our engagement overseas what does that mean for the resources in the Department and Development Co-operation Ireland? For example, how will public sector recruitment embargoes and so on impact on Development Co-operation Ireland's capacity to deliver on those projects?

A good overseas assistance programme reflects positively on the country that delivers it. I encourage the Minister of State to be courageous, visionary and not be too constrained by outside influences although he may have little control over them. If he does not push the boat out on this matter the White Paper may be seen as simply marking time rather than as a benchmark for future development.

I welcome the Minister of State. We have discussed some of these issues at sub-committee level and I hope we will have time to discuss the White Paper before the new timetable comes into effect in September.

Public meetings are a good idea. Has the question arisen at these of communities that identify and raise funds for a particular project or people working in a developing country? It will certainly arise when the Minister of State visits Galway where there is a great deal of fundraising for such projects. However, people often ask how they can get help from the Department to provide expertise for missionary priests or nuns in African states. When I contact the Department help never reaches the project I have mentioned. The Minister of State should consider this issue because it should be possible to deliver expertise and aid to a particular project, or order of nuns or society of priests.

I am in favour of Development Co-operation Ireland being decentralised to Limerick but often the city or town which most needs to host a decentralised service does not benefit from the programme. Mitchelstown in County Cork and Ballinasloe in County Galway, where there have been significant job losses, are examples. How far has the transfer of Development Co-operation Ireland to Limerick progressed? I hope we will have an opportunity to discuss this at the Sub-Committee on Development Co-operation. I hope our new timetable will be announced shortly and that there will be no delay in reaching a decision.

Deputy Carey is correct on the issue of the resource constraints within Development Co-operation Ireland. This is an issue of great concern as the aid programme increases. Notwithstanding our efforts to achieve the 0.7% target, we have achieved a figure of €190 million over the next three years, placing huge demands on Development Co-operation Ireland staff. In addition, the move to Limerick must be executed within the same timeframe. It is hoped the office will be established in Limerick in early 2007. The OPW has identified several properties to house the 150 staff employed by Development Co-operation Ireland.

The Cassidy report on staffing at Development Co-operation Ireland will be furnished to the advisory board next week. I would be delighted to discuss it in greater detail with the sub-committee on development. As Deputy Carey knows well, I am prepared to push out the boat. The moral and political dimensions of this issue are important. It is not often said enough but it brings with it a degree of global influence. Ireland benefits greatly from the size of its programme and keeping pace with those of other states. It reflects well on Ireland if we become a leading practitioner in the field, allowing us to punch above our weight at international level. We have an intuitive understanding because of our famine experience and former colonial status.

We are sceptical of the need to introduce legislation in this area. If it is enshrined in law, everyone who wants something done in government will want multi-annual committed legislation. Few Ministers for Finance would favour such an idea. I am not averse to legislating for the percentage, once it is achieved. However, I see it as a key mission of my remaining time as Minister of State to achieve a timetable within which to achieve the 0.7% target. After that, I am open to ideas on enshrining it in legislation. This may be the way to go given that Deputy Carey referred to the possibility of unscrupulous Ministers in the future who may raid the pot.

The disadvantage of enshrining it in legislation is that we cannot follow the lead taken by Norway and Sweden. Norway has reached 1% and hopes to further increase this, while Sweden has achieved 0.8%. Another disadvantage of having it enshrined in legislation is that one has to go back to the Oireachtas if one wants to increase the commitment. I do not believe that is desirable. I said deliberately in my earlier contribution that we should be the best in the world in this area because of our experience. I believe we have the capacity and ability to be so.

I agree with the Deputy on the EU constitution and EU external policies. That could be the subject of a book in its own right. I do not want to take up too much time on this issue other than to say that we have been supportive. I have raised this issue at several development cluster meetings. There needs to be more coherence in this area. There are too many national flags planted on the ground in Africa and elsewhere in the developing world. There is a risk of too much duplication and not enough focus on areas in which countries specialise. Ireland is a practitioner in a particular proposal in Zambia, harmonisation in practice. This means Ireland harmonises its efforts with other key donors in Zambia. We do not all set up AIDS programmes or make major investments in education and health. Work is divided between the various agencies, which is complementary rather than duplicating various efforts. It is a very small initiative.

At our recent meeting of development Ministers and a conference organised by the British, we asked for specific timeframes and deadlines around the issue of coherence. It is strongly believed that there is too much duplication by member states with their own programmes on the ground. Steadfast measures must be introduced in this regard. They are preferable to the aspirational rhetoric often thrown at these suggestions. Louis Michel, Commissioner for Development and Humanitarian Aid, will address this as it is difficult to establish a measure of how more coherence can be achieved. The development assistance committee will also assist in this process.

The world trade talks are a stew in their own right. Crucially, developing countries gain seven times more from trade than from aid. The welcome fact from an Irish perspective, although we have a strong food industry and lobby, is that it is now accepted at European level that subsidies are ended. My priority at the final round of talks in Hong Kong, with the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Michael Ahern, will be to make this a key development round. There is a view abroad that it will not become an agreement unless it has a strong development focus.

Deputy Carey referred to the EU dimensions in this area. I am open to the idea that on 26 May I will attend the development cluster and report back to that meeting to give the committee a deeper appreciation of the issues affecting the EU and the trade talks. The Deputy referred to the role of governance. We are rewriting our policy on governance. I have made it clear to my officials that we need to look closely at this area and the related issue of human rights observance. We want to enhance this and introduce stronger links between governments holding elections, spreading democracy and enhancing the capacity of local administrations in our partner countries to make good decisions that do not waste aid assistance.

We are rewriting and strengthening our policy not only on our own bat but also because other states are doing the same. Jeffrey Sachs spoke about fast-tracking certain countries in terms of aid. In my discussions with him last week, we both agreed that governments with bad records on governance and respect for human rights cannot be fast-tracked in terms of enhanced levels of overseas development assistance. The public will not tolerate increased aid for regimes which are tyrannical or dilatory in their observance of human rights. We have set up the IMRS, the Irish Missionary Resource Service. It has been in operation for only a year but we are providing assistance for 500 Irish missionaries in the developing world. I accept, as does the Department, the logic and thrust of Senator Kitt's question. There are many smaller NGOs, and in some cases start-up operations not receiving assistance, and in recent weeks we hoped to come up with a policy solution to allow us to remove some of the red tape for what I would regard as smaller financial grants to these smaller NGOs. We hope to design a practical, bureaucracy-free system of assisting them which will not involve them in endless form-filling and hoopla to get the grants. That issue is being addressed and I will report back directly when there has been some movement.

I think I answered the question regarding the transfer of Development Co-operation Ireland to Limerick, the proposed date being early 2007.

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials.

I fundamentally disagree with the need for a White Paper on aid at this time. For the purposes of the Cabinet decision reached when I was a Minister of State in the Department, all the preparatory work was done. There is a certain amount of justification being offered for the very disappointing Government decision to renege on the decision of the previous Government to reach the target set by the UN of 0.7% of GNP to be given as aid by 2007. That decision was reached after a proper pre-Cabinet consultation; it was reached in our census. The Taoiseach, representing Ireland in a very distinguished forum at the UN announced the decision to the world. The announcement was made in full knowledge of the implications for Ireland, with the full support of the social partners and all the political parties in Ireland and in the Dáil.

The Minister of State tells us he is putting in place a new target and I welcome that. It is now a matter of integrity and not one of prestige for Ireland. I disagree with the Minister of State when he says that having a good aid programme is an issue of prestige for the country. It is an issue of integrity for Ireland because we were the first country to commit to reach the target by a specific time, and in so doing, we gave leadership to other countries who are now approaching that bridge, countries such as Germany, France and the UK, who are now committing to a specific time for reaching the UN aid target. That target of aid to be contributed by developed countries was set by the UN more than 20 years ago.

When the decision was agreed at Cabinet with no opposition to the commitment to reaching the agreed target, which was meant to mark the millennium for Ireland, the world and our partner countries in Africa, we decided on a full review of the aid programme, which the Minister of State is now proposing yet again. We looked then at the staffing and capacity issues, at the geographical spread of the programme and at the pros and cons of going into new countries. That process took a full year and involved senior, busy people who had given up their time, and had come in from the private sector and from the OECD. They included former Secretaries General of Departments. It was a thorough, year-long process. The report arising from it was meant to be the template for the expansion of the aid programme, yet now we are going through another consultative process. All of the NGOs and aid agencies were involved in the initial process. All the staffing, strategic, geographical, economic and governance issues have already been dealt with. The big political issue involves this country deciding on when it will live up to the commitment made in our census, and publicly to the world, by means of the commitment by the Taoiseach before the UN development summit.

Aid budgets are the most vulnerable of all budgets and unfortunately in this case there was a change in direction. Somebody made a decision that a previous Cabinet decision would not be honoured. That is the legacy the Minister of State must now justify. We should have as soon as possible a redefined schedule on the basis of which Ireland will reach the UN target. That is the only way in which we will spare the blushes of Ireland internationally and in which we will honour our commitment to the poorest of the poor.

I regret if there is any sense that I am personalising this matter. This is not a political personal criticism of the Minister of State. As a Deputy I am saying there is a great sense of déjà vu. The decision was already made. We had the support of the political parties in the House, and that of the social partners. There was no opposition to the decision. A very regressive decision was subsequently made, which should be reversed as quickly as possible so that we can get back to a real leadership role in development, where we are properly placed to help the poorest of the poor.

We need to rediscover our sense of urgency in this matter. World poverty is getting worse. There is no room for complacency, for a leisurely approach, suggesting that we might reach the target over the next ten years. That does not reflect the fact that 15,000 people die every day in Africa from preventable or treatable diseases. The suggested approach does not reflect the concern of the Irish people and their urgency with regard to Ireland responding properly, in accordance with our means. We have never been in a better financial position to live up to our commitment in this area.

I urge the Minister of State to concentrate on finalising this commitment, to get consensus from Cabinet that we will definitely meet the next target set. The decision should be made within the shortest possible timeframe rather than being pushed towards 2012. When he attends the review of the millennium development goals next September, the Taoiseach will be very embarrassed unless he can say with full authority that Ireland will definitely reach the target in a very short timeframe. I regret that the Taoiseach has been put in that position. It was not the Cabinet's intention or mine as Minister of State, to place the Taoiseach in that invidious position. When we made the decision on aid we did so in full sincerity and with the full rigour of a Cabinet process. The Taoiseach went to the UN and stated Ireland's position with absolute confidence. It is very important that the Taoiseach should go to the review in September with a new target involving a very short timeframe.

The issue of capacity has been dealt with by the NGOs. The major agencies attended meetings of this committee and said they had no capacity problem with regard to Ireland reaching the target by 2007. The poorest countries in the world, with which we engage, have no problem in terms of absorbing the money. We cannot afford not to meet the target. Ireland should be a leader in development and remain so. By reneging on our original decision we have let ourselves down.

Regarding the capacity of the Department, the Minister of State said there are human resource problems there in terms of servicing such an expanding aid budget. This issue was clearly identified in the review I chaired in 2002. At that time it was agreed a certain number of staff should be hired on contract or employed permanently by the Civil Service. Has there been a problem in implementing that aspect of the review report? It was certainly agreed and accepted that if the aid programme were to expand to such an extent, the Department would have to increase its employment and flexibility regarding contracts. What is the problem and why has that not gone ahead? We certainly should not need to hear about those staffing problems. It was clearly understood, when the decision was made and when I reviewed the entire aid programme, that they would be quickly resolved.

Shall I respond now or wait for further questions?

It would be the responsibility of the Chairman to decide on that. However, since Deputy O'Donnell has focused on a very basic policy issue, I do not wish to deflect from it. I am quite happy to follow but I have other issues that I also wished to raise.

Perhaps the Minister of State might reply.

Deputy O'Donnell raised one specific question regarding staffing. She is correct that, following the Ireland Aid review report, 30 additional staff were hired. There is now an even greater need. We have grown considerably since that time. I do not wish to be facetious but life did not stop in 2002. The public service cap on numbers affects us extremely badly. We are an unusual Department in the sense that DCI is an operation that is more like a business. We deliver aid on the ground and operate to a business model as opposed to the typical or traditional administrative Civil Service one. This means that as business increases, there is an exponential need to increase staffing and resources.

The contract employee route to which Deputy O'Donnell referred is not the answer, particularly as the Department of Finance applies a rather rigorous rule. Contract staff may be hired as long as there is a short to medium-term purpose. If it becomes clear that they are being used as a device to circumvent the embargo or cap on numbers, one may not hire them. That is a weakness, and the Department of Foreign Affairs is very much against the current cap, which we would like to see lifted. We hope this will happen by the end of the year because the cap has a particularly adverse affect on us.

I agree with the Deputy on the short timeframe and I listened to her comments regarding France and the UK. France has set a target of 2010, while the UK has opted for 2013. That is why it is suitable to discuss the date of 2012. Ultimately, anything that I say is predicated by my having to go to the Cabinet with a full package setting out the dates. As I stated publicly before attending this meeting, my preferred date is 2012. Like the former Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, I would ideally like to achieve it in as short a time as possible and perhaps even prior to 2012. The latter is a suitable date, however, particularly in light of what Deputy O'Donnell said regarding the UK and France, which are both aiming to do at or around that time. We have the opportunity to do so as well.

I did not say that it is a matter of prestige for us to be leaders in development but that it had the by-product not only of a moral dimension but also of enhancing our status internationally. I am in favour — I am sure the Deputy feels the same — of enhancing that further. There is a real sense of urgency about hammering down a commitment to a timeframe. One hopes that it will be done within the next few months and certainly before September.

The former Minister of State commented regarding whether the 2002 aid review required a follow-up such as the White Paper. In my opinion, such a follow-up is required. In 2002, her Ireland Aid review was very much needed. It was carried out by experts and although NGOs were consulted, the public was not asked for its opinion at events such as town hall meetings. That is what we are doing in respect of the White Paper process. I assure the Deputy that the 2002 review remains the template. It is the only review we have conducted into the aid programme. Like any other review, whether in business or the public sector, it examines underlying structural issues affecting a Department, such as resourcing, as well as very practical matters, such as whether we should strengthen or deepen our involvement with specific countries or do both.

I have always said that we are not trying to rewrite anything or produce yet another review. Most organisations, Civil Service and otherwise, become extremely fatigued by constant reviews of one kind or another. I stated earlier that I see no great reason to radically alter the structures or the way in which the development programme operates. We have been the subject of exceptionally positive reviews by the OECD and this means that we must be doing something right. When Deputy O'Donnell was Minister of State, she made an enormous contribution in that regard.

The White Paper is about the underlying principles and Government policy for the next seven, eight or ten years as we increase the programme further so that we can nail down some of the principles — for example, untied aid — to which Deputy O'Donnell referred. Many people enter into a great deal of difficult, circuitous and ultimately unprofitable debate on this matter. People continually ask me whether we should not be providing tied aid. As the Deputy is aware, many people come to us who are trying to sell services in those countries. My argument is that we must clearly tie that principle down in a strong statement that we do not get involved in tied aid and that we believe in a 100% debt write-off for the least developed and other underdeveloped countries. Certain principles that we hold dear must be nailed down in this process. We have a policy infused by certain clearly enunciated principles. That is the point. I see this as being complementary to the 2002 review, which, as Deputy O'Donnell said, is the template for what we are doing now and what we hope to do in the future.

The Minister of State has said that those staffing issues still exist, which is very disappointing. It is important for the committee to state its support for the Minister of State in resolving those issues, particularly if the cap on public service recruitment is depriving him of the wherewithal to manage the expanded aid programme. That is very important, particularly in light of the budget of €500 million which is growing each year. Those issues were discussed and all the independent reviews of our programme have identified that shortage of staff in particular fields as an impediment and danger to the programme's expansion.

One way in which we tried to deal with that was by examining whether Ireland Aid, or DCI, as it is now known, could be turned into an agency. If the latter could be achieved, it would have the flexibility enjoyed by other agencies and would be able to circumvent the public service ban on recruitment. If the Department of Finance or the powers that be are not willing to grant that flexibility or allow the Minister of State the leeway to expand the staff of the programme, the agency approach may well have to be revisited.

I support the Minister of State in this, since it is of strategic and vital importance to the governance of the programme that the proper staffing mechanisms be put in place to enable this multi-million euro budget to be properly managed by the Department. Perhaps the Minister of State might report further on that matter. The committee will assist him in any way possible.

I endorse all that has been said in welcome to the Minister of State. It is significant that he has come before this committee at the beginning of a process which he has outlined in lucid terms. I could not help but reflect that, in the context of the exchange with Deputy O'Donnell, the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, could have had a worse time. It could have been Bono asking the questions but he is otherwise distracted in Canada.

I was disappointed initially on reading the submission that it contained no reference whatsoever to human rights in the context of governance. The Minister has addressed that and acknowledged it. It is absolutely essential in a world where increasingly there are human rights violations. I am not suggesting that the African continent is worse than any other part of the world, but because of their colonial legacy there is definitely a need for a country like Ireland, which has no baggage in this regard, to take the lead in ensuring a reduction in human rights violations, especially where there are elections in which parliamentarians raise issues about good governance in their individual countries. They should not be abducted or locked up or have their families threatened.

Regarding existing principles and practices, the submission refers to the following: policy coherence; untied aid; local ownership; strengthened partnership; enhanced harmonisation and a focus on results at the core of the problem. That is a mouthful. In the consultative process throughout the country it might be helpful to elaborate on what these terms mean. I assumed that untied aid meant that aid was not tied to human rights violations, for example. You have now said that it is about the provision of services for companies that will be coming to you. I gather that is what you were implying — you did not elaborate. Forgive my ignorance in this regard.

Notwithstanding what Deputy O'Donnell has said and how sincerely committed she is because she has been so close to it, I come from a small town in the west which ten years ago was haemorrhaging people and the issue of overseas aid was not on the agenda. It is now on the agenda in the context of the good work Ireland is doing and it is linked to our participation with and contribution to the United Nations. That is the sort of response I get when I discuss issues of an international nature. People are still exercised by bread and butter issues. Of course it is vital that a committee such as this should continue to emphasise the commitment that was made, but it is not the be all and end all. We have come a long way in ten years in terms of the amount of money this country is providing for overseas development aid. That aid budget has expanded at a time when we have something like 4% more growth economically than the average in the eurozone. If the growth rate, the GDP and the GNP are going up, inevitably in real cash terms the money is going up. It is important to balance the argument.

The one major criticism that came out of the African conference in London some months ago, despite its positive nature, was about governance. The report was flawed in that it did not sufficiently emphasise governance. It referred to providing aid, giving money to governments without necessarily investigating whether they were freely and fairly elected and were operating equitably. I would like to know if Ireland will emphasise that aspect in the context of the consultative process and the White Paper which is to be produced. It is not enough to throw money at the problem. It is not enough to talk about on the ground projects which are working well. There is a wider global picture. I am firmly convinced that western governments must grasp the governance nettle and emphasise civil society and the development of partnerships. Ireland should be in the vanguard in doing this.

What is the improvement in the availability of medicines in the context of overseas development aid? It is a main talking point in the fight against AIDS and other diseases affecting Africa. A matter which seems to have fallen off the agenda is the question of landmines. There are still areas of Africa and other war-torn parts of the world where there are severe landmine problems. Young children are being blown up and their legs and arms broken. I understand that there has recently been a significant technological advance in addressing this issue. I would like to think that Ireland would make whatever contribution is necessary in that area.

Overall I applaud what is being done, with one caveat. We have heard the old cliché about all politics being local. Whoever was arranging the programme of consultative meetings decided that the world begins and ends at a line from Galway to Dublin North. Whenever anybody goes north, they tend to go to places like Sligo or Letterkenny. I would like to see you coming to Carrick-on-Shannon, the centre of the Border region where we have the most excellent facilities, owing to the sound economic policies of this Government over the past ten years.

I agree entirely on the latter point, but unfortunately if I were to relent in the case of Carrick-on-Shannon I would be in every single part of Ireland within no time. We are covering the north west and north east, where we will be having separate consultative sessions in September and October.

It should not be the old reliables like Sligo. There are other areas. Why not Carrick-on-Shannon?

It could be the whole of Ireland in no time. On the specific issue of governance, it is something we are re-writing. We would spend between 6% and 8% of our bilateral aid programme on governance and civil society issues. That would be equal to what we spend on water and sanitation. This indicates the importance we place upon it. We will place an even greater reliance on it in the future. There are huge parallel concerns even in the year of the tsunami about the efficacy of the aid, who will dispense and receive it, what kind of regimes are being assisted by it. These are core issues. Respect for human rights is at the heart of our governance programme and my impression is that more and more they will be linked.

In fairness to the conference on Africa, it was not entirely loaded in favour of increasing overseas aid in terms of volume. It raised the issue of corruption and the need for a comprehensive drive against it for any kinds of increases in aid to be fully effective. Untied aid basically means that countries like the United States — I do not want to single them out — Italy, France and many other countries link directly the assistance they give to the services and facilities in the donor countries. Part of the contractual obligation on the recipient country is that they must hire consultants from the donor countries in order to access the aid. That is seen by Ireland and by most of the development community, including the Development Assistance Committee of the OECD, to be a practice which should be phased out in the long run because it does not entirely assist. It makes it very awkward to provide focused assistance to these countries because we are trying to bundle aid with cumbersome trade and services agreements that may or may not be beneficial to the recipient countries. They may not want particular services but may have to accept them in order to download the aid. There are complications and difficulties around that but we have never gone into that sphere of activity. As a broadcaster, Senator Mooney is right about the language there.

We are involved in retroviral treatment purchasing and are contributing to the Clinton Foundation which is primarily involved in that area. The effect of that international initiative to lower the price of drugs and allow the use of generic products means that they are beginning to roll out across Africa. I saw that in December. People told me they were starting to expand programmes which could not previously be extended to remoter populations because of the costs. That is a welcome development.

I am not sure of the technological breakthrough in relation to mines. In Mozambique I witnessed a specific de-mining programme supported by us as DCI. It is hoped that Mozambique will be entirely cleared of mines by 2009.

Are we in Angola?

We are in Angola and Afghanistan, where we are supporting international NGOs who are involved in de-mining. The operation I saw in Mozambique was very interesting. A South African, a former ordnance officer, was involved with a number of colleagues in clearing mines across a field. It is a very difficult process. Well after the civil conflict nobody keeps a map of these mines. It depends a great deal on local lore and the knowledge or belief of local people that there are mines in a certain area. It is not an easy task and takes a number of years.

Human rights will be a core issue in the coming years.

Are you in a position to aid civil society in providing good governance, in aiding candidates or the electoral process?

That is done in a substantial way by DCI in terms of encouraging democratic processes and procedures. It is a huge task and they are very involved in some of the countries we have visited.

In recent weeks it has been reported that the campaign to eradicate malaria has not been very successful, primarily because of problems relating to the availability of generic drugs in those villages where stagnant water breeds mosquitos. Ireland should be seen to be proactive in that area as well.

We dealt with that before the Senator arrived. DCI is promoting nets, which have been hugely successful.

Specifically about the drugs, they are available but not accessible because the major pharmaceutical companies are not prepared to release the rights to produce generic drugs.

I despair when I hear that initiatives decided upon some years ago have been hindered because of staff shortages.

In fairness to the staff who work in DCI and the Department of Foreign Affairs, nothing has been hindered. The good work continues. I would not like the impression to be given that anything has been inhibited. I am simply saying they are under pressure but they are equal to the task.

My ears must be playing tricks.

The Minister will attend a conference in Brussels on 6 May regarding economic partnership agreements. What is his attitude to the negotiations with the African, Caribbean and Pacific countries in relation to those agreements? Does he support the changes proposed by the Department for International Development in the United Kingdom?

We are looking at their proposal. We believe their paper is very interesting and want to study it further. We see it as a very good opening contribution to the debate around the EPAs. Whatever we do should be of assistance. A number of Deputies, including Deputy Allen, have tabled parliamentary questions on this issue. It is not a closed door. Nothing is to be completed until 2008. We have a fair period to reflect and ensure that whatever the Commission puts in place in relation to EPAs is proper and works best for the partner governments. That would be our priority there.

Some alarmist noises have been made, for the best of reasons. NGOs have made the point that the removal of preferential treatment will mean significant job losses in certain parts of the developing world, including Lesotho where textile industries are closing because of a breakthrough deal at World Trade Organisation level. We need to look closely as these issues.

The EU Trade Commissioner has been very interesting on this point. Mr. Mandelson has indicated that he is talking about a period of ten years before there is full reciprocity in terms of countries. There are two sides to it. The opening up of trade simultaneously on both sides can destroy industry and employment in the partner country. I welcome the comments made by Mr. Mandelson. Even if we get agreement in 2008, it could be ten years later before Europe insists on reciprocation in terms of the developing world. I can give the Deputy a detailed response on the EPA issue.

On the capacity of NGOs to spend increased funding arising from the 0.7% of GNP commitment, what is the Minister's stance on the point made by Deputy Liz O'Donnell that NGOs were consulted prior to the commitment being made and confirmed that they had the capacity, despite the Minister's subsequent statements?

I do not know who made the statement that there was a constraint. I am at a loss——

It was said that they were constrained in spending the increased funding, that they had not the capacity to do it.

I am not sure who said that.

You said it in the Dáil.

No, I did not say that. I said there were capacity constraints such as any organisation has when confronted with an exponential increase in budget. That is not a particularly revelatory statement on my part. It is a very obvious argument. A person operating a corner shop in a remote part of Ireland would know that if the budget or the number of customers is doubled it has a resourcing effect in terms of capacity. I never suggested the NGOs could not spend the money — of course they could. We can all spend money but the question is whether we can do so efficiently and appropriately.

The Minister of State did say it.

No, I did not say that. Please do not seek to misquote me. I am being very careful in what I am saying. It is noteworthy in relation to the tsunami that one of the leading NGOs, Concern, closed its appeal at a vital stage because it felt for obvious reasons it needed to look carefully at how it would spend the money it had received. That issue is clear. There have been huge issues in the United Kingdom among certain NGOs who are wondering whether they can go back to their subscribers to ask if they can redirect the money donated for the tsunami relief to more pressing and demanding ongoing issues in Africa. This is a live debate.

I was quite specific in talking about the pre-tsunami situation and the capacity of NGOs to spend funding accrued from the commitment made on the 0.7% target.

In the pre-tsunami period, just after I became a Minister I had many consultations with NGOs and all of them said it would be preferable to arrive at the target in a planned and progressive manner which would enable them to build their capacity to match the amounts of funding. I would have thought that was obvious. I do not think there is much between the Deputy and me on this issue. It is a question of emphasis. I am saying that we need to plan the spending so that everybody — NGOs and DCI — can ramp up their capacity to meet the increased funding. It is very simple. It is not rocket science.

There is a big difference between us. You made a promise and I believe you should have kept it. You have broken it.

I did not make the promise.

Your Government did.

I thank the Minister, who has put great effort into this afternoon. I am concerned about two issues. One is that you are to set targets within one to two months. In many ways that will be good news. We would like to see the targets so that we know where we are going. On the other hand, many issues have been raised which must be dealt with.

We have had letters from the Taoiseach specifically saying that there are many arguments about the money we are giving, the way we are giving it and whether it is going to the right organisations. We must also ensure we get value for it, that the regimes are in order and that projects are in place. One can pour in money without watching how it is controlled. We must also consider the capacity of DCI and the NGOs to handle the large level of increased funding and whether there are any logistical or management issues that need to be addressed before such further significant increases in resources are deployed by the Government in this area. Those issues are still around and have not yet been fully answered. A decision will be made fairly quickly on the amounts of money for the coming years and the White Paper will look at how to deal with all these issues. It is excellent to get the views of people.

The support of the Irish people for developement aid is well known. The cost in relation to other things here at home has been raised. That is an issue that will obviously be taken into consideration by the Government when making its decision on the number of years.

Then there is the question of capacity. We know that the World Bank and the IMF reckon that $30 billion could be absorbed by poor countries immediately, rising to $50 billion per year in the short term. They see no great capacity problem in absorbing the money in poverty and disease stricken regions.

The question of corruption has been dealt with by members in a number of different ways but it has to be answered in the document that goes to Government in such a way as to put it off the table. Nobody is better than the Irish in dealing with the corruption issue. We have an excellent record in this respect. DCI is redefining and developing its methodologies and controls. It has been signalled to us by the Government that it is an issue. It has also been raised by other people. It is a very negative thing. If I wanted to damage the allocation of funds to DCI for developing countries, I would be raising those kinds of issues. Instead, let us be to the forefront in dealing toughly and effectively with corruption. I have attended a number of conferences on behalf of the committee and I have put proposals to them, some of which are being followed. We know a lot about corruption and our people on the ground are very good in that area.

There will be a decision based on a memorandum to Government within the next month or two. The review is excellent and there is a very broad understanding and consensus. I am delighted to hear the targets will be set sooner rather than later, but these issues are there. How far back do we go with the phasing? We started on 2007 and it would not be the end of the world to make the target in that year. It is now official that Ireland is one of the richest countries in the world. Our GDP per head of population is 23% above the average of the EU 15. That puts us among the top four countries in the world. This was confirmed by the Taoiseach at last week's IMI conference. We still have much to do in terms of infrastructure and development but we are in a strong economic position, the Taoiseach said, to continue the leadership we have given since 1997. Our OECD peers state that the quality of Irish aid is of a very high standard and is directed to doing the right things. We are a very good example in that respect.

I do not think anybody can question the commitment of Irish people. Following the tsunami the Government donated €20 million as an immediate contribution, which compares well with any other countries, but the people put up about €80 million. Why do we ask if the people are behind good work when it is done properly and for a very good reason? I would not like the impression to be given that the Irish people are not behind this work. There will always be a few, but there is an underestimation of the people's generosity and concern. UNICEF found that the direct contribution of Irish people was the second highest in the world. This is a good indication of how Irish people feel.

We would like to ensure that the Minister's hand is as strong as possible and that we give every support we can in securing an early phasing in of the extra funds. Those funds are not that great compared to our gross national income. Our gross national product per head of population is now some $38,000. We are talking about countries where the equivalent figure is $150, $200 or $300 per head of population per annum. The worst possible thing for us would be to see the Government deciding on a long phasing out. You nailed your colours very firmly to the mast in regard to reaching 0.7% sooner rather than later.

All the members thank you and your officials for giving us such valuable information. We wish you well with your review. The setting of percentage targets will be very immediate. The second point is the broader review of the various aspects, which will be longer term and can continue even when targets have been set. Many things can be done within the next year and the following year to tighten up the issues about which people are concerned.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.01 p.m and adjourned at 4.06 p.m. until 12 noon on Tuesday, 3 May 2005.

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