JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 12 Jul 2005

Irish Missionary Resource Service: Presentation.

Chairman

Members will be aware that there are two groups appearing before the joint committee this afternoon. Accordingly, I propose that we meet the Irish Missionary Resource Service from 2.30 p.m. to 3.30 p.m., following which we will meet the Federation of Irish Societies, UK. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome Mr. Mike Greally, chief executive officer, Mr. Séamus O'Gorman and Sr. Ursula Sharpe from the Irish Missionary Resource Service and Fr. Joe Cantwell, Sr. Miriam Duggan and Sr. Rita Kelly from the Irish Missionary Union. The Irish Missionary Resource Service, IMRS, was established in July last year by members of the Irish Missionary Union, IMU, the umbrella body for Catholic missionary organisations. While its current membership is 58 Catholic missionary organisations, that number is expected to increase to 85. The IMRS held its first annual general meeting in June, at which time it launched its strategy document. It has also made a submission on the Government's White Paper. I thank Mr. Greally for circulating members with copies of the strategy paper and I now invite him to make a brief presentation to the joint committee.

The joint committee will suspend for a few minutes following its discussion with the Irish Missionary Resource Service to allow the next group to come before it.

Mr. Mike Greally

We thought the invitation was to meet a Dáil committee. I note that Members of the Seanad are also present and I apologise for the heading on our presentation.

Chairman

This is a joint committee of Dáil and Seanad Members.

Mr. Greally

Given that we are two organisations involved in slightly different roles, Fr. Joe Cantwell of the Irish Missionary Union, as the body responsible for establishing the Irish Missionary Resource Service, will commence with a brief presentation on its role with Irish missionaries.

Fr. Joe Cantwell

I thank the Chairman and members for welcoming us and for giving us the opportunity to share with them a brief outline of our work, aims and objectives.

The Irish Missionary Union, IMU, is a collaborative network of 78 missions and groups in Ireland. It was founded in 1970 to foster support and training for missionaries. At present, there are 2,400 Catholic missionaries and 215 Protestant missionaries working in 90 countries. The Protestant missionaries are not members of the IMU but we work in close co-operation with them. Most of the countries in which we work are listed in the least developed countries category.

The Irish Missionary Union promotes awareness of justice issues in developing countries; promotes development education in parishes and schools in Ireland; provides systems and resources for people returning from missions; facilitates insurance for personnel working overseas; and collaborates and co-operates with other groups, such as Comhlámh, engaged in similar support and overseas activities. Member groups facilitate the placing of lay volunteers and young people going on short-term overseas service. The IMU is a member of Dóchas.

In 2000, the IMU entered into dialogue with Ireland Aid on a number of issues relating to overseas development. Ireland Aid acknowledges that its overseas strategy is strongly based on mission development experience, an experience the IMU is happy to share with it. From this dialogue emerged increased aid for missionaries from Development Co-operation Ireland and a realisation of the need to establish an entity to handle this finance. As a result, the Irish Missionary Resource Service was born.

The number of Irish missionaries is diminishing but the drop-off is more than compensated for by the number of indigenous personnel joining the former Irish congregations. This has resulted in an overall increase in the number of mission personnel on the ground. For example, one Irish group, the Sisters of Saint Louis, have seven members in Nigeria but there are 114 Nigerian sisters working with them. The Divine Word Missionaries, the SVD, have just over 600 Irish personnel and more than 10,000 overall on mission. The Marist priests and brothers have over 25,000 members.

Recently the Irish Missionary Union negotiated with the Department of Social and Family Affairs regarding the pensions of returned missionaries. More resources need to be invested in that area. Many of those to whom I refer retire overseas. We receive many inquiries about the possibility of people qualifying for old age pensions when retired on mission. Perhaps the Department of Foreign Affairs could do something to support them after their life of service on mission. I acknowledge that the Chairman — and former Minister for Social Welfare — Deputy Woods, showed a keen interest in the issue.

One missionary is about to celebrate 60 years' continuous service in Nigeria, a country where, 100 years ago, few lived more than 100 days. Some missionaries return to Ireland on retirement. I ask Sister Rita Kelly, MMM, who is in charge of the returning missionaries desk, to take up the story.

Sr. Rita Kelly

Missionaries return to a changed Ireland and they come back with different experiences. The contributions that returning missionaries make in Ireland, particularly among the new migrant groups, refugees and asylum seekers, should be considered. Various centres were established by different missionary organisations. For example, the Spiritans have a centre for refugees in Phibsboro, the Vincentians have established a centre and the Migrant Rights Centre was established in Beresford Place in Dublin. Cois Tine was established in Cork. It is a centre for refugees and asylum seekers and was awarded a memorial award on behalf of the Anti-Poverty Resource Network to recognise its care of and dedication to the welfare of many of the non-nationals in Cork.

Many missionaries work with NGOs when they return and share their experience and skills in respect of HIV-AIDS. Many returned missionaries work at Merchant's Key and Ruhama. We have members in the Debt and Development Coalition Ireland and the working support group of Dóchas.

Our mission alive desk deals with many of the activities of returned missionaries. Through awareness and education programmes in schools and parishes, the desk aims to build bridges and reach out and embrace people of different cultures, languages and religions. It aims to create bridges of friendship among people in villages, towns and cities.

It is not easy to return to Ireland when one has lived for many years overseas. I work at the transition desk, which deals with the many missionaries who worked for long periods overseas in difficult circumstances which obliged them to deal with war, threats of violence and war, extreme poverty and the HIV-AIDS pandemic. Many of our members are burnt out, suffer from compassion fatigue and are not too well when they return home. As a number of missionaries have seen friends dying of AIDS, which afflicts us too, returning to Ireland can be very difficult. People also return, in terms of society and the church, to a very changed Ireland. Some time is needed for reorientation, retraining and education before we can settle back into the Irish scene.

I divide the returned missionaries with whom I come into contact into three groups. The first is the middle-aged group, namely, those aged 45 to 65. They are professional people — many are doctors, nurses and teachers — who need updating and retraining before settling back down. The next group is made up of the active retired. Thanks to social welfare schemes, these people do not have to worry about pensions but they become quite involved in the areas to which I referred earlier, such as the Merchants Quay project, and share their skills. The final group comprises the elderly, who need support and care.

We are currently carrying out research in the Irish Missionary Union, IMU, to obtain a true profile of missionaries returning to Ireland, what the congregations do in terms of making people aware, before they return, of changes that have occurred here and the assistance available to them on returning. We want to see how we can best respond to our members and then establish further programmes. We currently run a number of workshops to enable people to settle in. These explore transition, or what I term "reverse mission". They consider people's values and skills and match them with the needs of society. We give the participants ongoing support and individual guidance. As I mentioned previously, many of them work in war situations. We also run a number of workshops dealing with stress and trauma in the life situations in which we work.

We work with groups such as Comhlámh. In September we will be organising a five-day workshop to deal with critical instance stress management. We work with the Irish Council of Churches, with which we had a study day last November. We face the same issues as those faced by the various other churches in Ireland. We also work with local members of the Church of Ireland.

Our dream is to have an ecumenical missionary centre for the island of Ireland. We have met in Belfast and would like a centre for all of Ireland — to cater for missionary and development workers — a place to which people can return, where they will have the space to debrief, where physical and psychological assessments can be carried out, where re-orientation and retraining can take place and where development and education programmes can be provided. This would allow us to share our experiences with the people of Ireland.

Mr. Greally

I will first explain the origins of the Irish Missionary Resource Service. In 2002-03, some changes were afoot. There was an overall increase in funding — within Development Co-operation Ireland, DCI — from the Department of Foreign Affairs. As part of the overhaul of the Ireland Aid review, a decision was taken to close down APSO, which had been the main conduit of funding for Irish missionaries. While APSO was being subsumed into DCI in 2003, project and personnel funding remained the former's responsibility. From a pragmatic perspective, the establishment of the IMRS was a direct result of finding a single conduit through which the Government, via DCI, could fund Irish missionary work. The main function of the IMRS is to focus on the development component of what Irish missionaries do. In a sense, we are working from a missionary ethos that all people deserve to have and live a full life. We are looking at areas of poverty eradication, the sustainable use of resources and the promotion of just and peaceful relationships.

The IMRS was established in 2003 and began functioning in June 2004, when I was appointed chief executive. We received our first tranche of funding from DCI in July 2004. Effectively, we have picked up the gauntlet left by APSO and we are now dealing with the personnel and project funding for missionary work. However, we see the IMRS as more than just an organisation that is going to continue what APSO was doing over a period of 20 years. We are seeking a multi-annual agreement with DCI, which is reflected in our strategic plan over a period of three years. We are trying to encourage the Government to look beyond the limitations posed by the numbers of Irish missionaries. The overall population of missionaries is far greater than that reflected by the numbers of Irish missionaries. We are focusing on the work of the Irish missionary organisations, which will take us beyond that.

The work in which they are involved throughout the world includes health care, AIDS-HIV, formal and informal education, capacity building, care for the earth, agriculture and food security, humanitarian relief work, human rights, justice and peace programmes and conflict resolution. The Irish missionary organisations are involved in every single activity that the other development organisations pursue. However, we believe the work of the missionaries is not as well known as it should be. It does not have the high profile of that of some of our NGO colleagues and, as such, one of our duties is to seek to raise that profile and to convince the Government — in this period of the White Paper — that it can deliver more of its development strategies by using the missionaries. At present, we have a membership of 82 organisations. We are servicing approximately 85 organisations and the capacity is far more than that provided for in the current budget the IMRS is receiving.

We have undertaken to provide the Government, in the past year, with a focused one stop shop as regards issues of accountability, including increased monitoring and evaluation of projects. Over a period, we will be able to provide it with information that reflects accurately the work missionaries are doing. The Government has not received such information in the past. We hope, in the future, to expand the level of funding we receive, not just from the Government but also from other sources. As part of that process, we will be profiling, on a more official basis, the actual capacity of missionary organisations. We hope we will be listened to and that the Government will recognise the enormous opportunity on offer in terms of working with the Irish missionary organisations.

As Fr. Cantwell said, to look at the Irish missionary personnel, as such, gives a false picture. The numbers are far greater and we can provide an opportunity to work on a south-south basis in the sense that a growing number of missionaries being recruited by the Irish organisations are indigenous to the countries in which those organisations are operating. They are actually able to work in areas that other organisations find it very difficult to access.

I visited Nigeria recently and I was greatly impressed by the level of qualifications, etc., that the missionary organisations have offered to such people. It is not just a matter of recruiting them in a particular country and getting them on the ticket, as it were. Many of them have travelled to Ireland, the UK and the US to be trained. They are properly qualified and have a great capacity to do much more than at present in the area of development and in terms of serving Ireland.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Greally and our other guests for making their presentations, which were very interesting. A number of Senators and Deputies would like to ask questions. I have just two matters on which I wish to comment. The first is that we would like to be supplied with figures relating to people who come home, having lived abroad for long periods, and who are not covered by pensions. We would like to get to the bottom of that and would welcome the assistance of our guests in trying to get these figures into some shape.

We will be speaking to the Department of Social and Family Affairs in more formal terms but, for some years now, the religious have been included in the social security system and pay towards it. The circumstances of the people in question pre-date that time. They are among the groups left out and, in that sense, have been somewhat forgotten. For this reason, I thought it important to get the figures in order that we may determine the possibilities in dealing with their situation.

My second point relates to Sr. Rita's dream of establishing an ecumenical centre for returning missionaries. She would like to retain the spirit of co-operation that such people had when they were abroad on missions. We observed that spirit when we visited a number of countries, including Zambia, Ethiopia and Uganda. We noticed that the missionaries were working absolutely and totally together. I propose that Sr. Rita act as the project leader in one case and the committee will lead the other project. We will work together on both projects.

We saw such a system in operation in Africa. I wrote some things about it in the 1970s. It offers huge opportunities for further development and creativity. It gives people an opportunity to use their talents. I am sorry that more Members of the Oireachtas were not in Africa to observe the manner in which the missionaries co-operated in a real and total sense there. They co-operated effectively by giving responsibility for leadership to different groups in different circumstances.

We wish Sr. Rita well with her dream. We would like to discuss this matter again at a future date because it is wonderful.

Deputy M. Higgins

I join the Chairman in welcoming the members of the delegation and acknowledging their work. I would like to make a few points, which might not necessarily be applicable to the group before the joint committee.

I continue to wonder what happened to APSO. Perhaps we can note that matter for the future. I am delighted that the Irish Missionary Resource Service and the Irish Missionary Union survived the rather strange demolition of APSO. I inquire about APSO on a regular basis. Many people known to members used APSO as a mechanism for volunteering and delivering their services abroad. When one asks questions after the reviews, one finds that the people in the development section of the Department of Foreign Affairs who were dealing with APSO are now dealing with what might be called a form of volunteering. When one presses such people on matters of this nature, one is informed that, among other things, they are looking after the Irish Missionary Union. I wish the officials well with that but I think the joint committee should have debated the matter before the change was made.

Representatives of Development Co-operation Ireland should have been asked to prepare a proper report, outlining their views of volunteering. We have been promised such a report for almost three years. Certain people have definite views on volunteering. Some of them feel that the days of volunteering are over, that we should minimise the presence of people from Ireland and other parts of Europe in the developing world and that people working on projects should be recruited locally. That is one argument we have heard. Other people have asked questions about the recruitment of Irish and European people when aid has been increased. What skills should we seek to transfer in such circumstances? What form of technology transfer should be used? Such matters have not been debated.

The submission made by the civil society section as part of the White Paper process was impressive in every respect. It identified the importance of ethics in the debate on development. The merits of the various models of development which are needed in different circumstances — I refer to different villages and different countries, for example — are not discussed to the same extent as they were in the late 1970s and early 1980s. There is a focus on poverty.

The presentation made by our guests brings to mind another controversial issue. If a country was ruled by a dictator in the past, should the children currently growing up there, who are striving to live and be educated, be obliged to pay for the robbery and pilfering of aid funds by that dictator? Those who turn the fraud argument into a central part of the development debate have opened up a new type of approach that seeks to rediscover and repatriate allegedly misused funds which have supposedly been transferred out to other countries. Neither the countries nor their children should pay for this fraud. Rather, the Swiss bank accounts should be opened in order to discover where the fraud lies. There is a serious misplacement of energy.

The White Paper submission was unfortunately almost unique in stressing the importance of the environment and I commend it in this regard. I agree with the issue of development education. Our guests referred to volunteering opportunities, which are very important. What is the services mechanism for handling missionary and secular volunteering opportunities? I will return to this point.

We were circulated with a document regarding NDF funding rounds for 2004. The joint committee has visited Ethiopia, among other places. There is no reference to the work of the St. Vincent de Paul sisters from Mill Hill working in Mekele in Tigray, Ethiopia. My sister-in-law is there. How does project funding get through the DCI system? It would be useful for members of the committee to be informed of the position.

The people who return contribute very valuable work in terms of the Migrant Rights Centre. I know of two such centres, although delegates did not mention Sister Ita. The service is involved with Comhlámh and its anti-racism project. This committee does not seek to influence their lordships, the Bishops. However, my experience of many people who return home is that they have a far more advanced view with regard to the complexity of human life than many of the people who have not so moved.

Deputy O’Donnell

I welcome the delegation. I am delighted that we are focusing on the work of the missionaries in developing countries. I agree that it seems strange that out of an overall aid budget of €545 million for next year, a mere €12 million is earmarked for the very valuable, life-altering work done by the missionary orders in all of their diversity. There are some 85 organisations, with thousands of people working on the ground, involved. This suggests that an insufficient level of status is afforded to the work done so freely and over such a long period by missionary workers.

Many members have witnessed the work that is being carried out. I visited Uganda and Kenya with President McAleese and met Sr. Miriam and Sr. Ursula. We saw the fantastic work that is being done. It is sustainable and involves the local population, and there are very few overheads. The value extracted from Irish taxpayers' money on the part of Irish missionaries must be seen to be believed. I was so impressed by the work that, when I returned, the Department decided to increase the capacity to help the missionary orders to apply for funding.

Some established non-governmental organisations are expert at applying for money. These have accountants, research officers and large numbers of staff who are skilled at navigating Development Co-operation Ireland's funding mechanisms. Clearly, the funding applications from the people who I met in Africa working in the missionary orders were modest. Given that such a large amount of money is now available for this work and that the kind of work the orders do is so sustainable and effective, it is exactly the kind of activity towards which the Government should direct its funds in the context of an expanding budget.

Every Minister who has served in the Department of Foreign Affairs speaks in laudatory terms about the work of the missionaries. It is the template on which the Irish aid programme has been established and built, particularly in terms of the notion of partnership with local people, a total focus on poverty reduction and working in a selfless way over a long period with the poorest of the poor in the poorest communities of the poorest countries. I want the joint committee to support the case made by the orders for an increase in funding because they clearly have a greater capacity to absorb it. Most of the projects listed in their presentation cost under €40,000, which is modest when compared to projects we fund for the large organisations such as GOAL, Trócaire and Concern. We could easily double or treble the funding to the missionary orders because of the kind of work they do. There is a focus on the work done in respect of HIV-AIDS because the pandemic has the greatest impact upon the poorest communities. I congratulate the orders on their ongoing work with the poorest of the poor in Africa and I support their plea for a funding increase.

The issue of the pensions is an administrative matter which the committee should not even bother to discuss because it simply should be resolved. If there is any difficulty regarding pensions for our returning missionaries, it should be sorted out immediately. We want them to continue doing their work without being obliged to worry about the future on their return home. When they retire, their future should be secure. Our efforts should go towards supporting them in their current valuable work in the field. I congratulate our guests on their ongoing work.

Chairman

When the witnesses make their replies, they should indicate their capacity for using additional funds. As the capacity of different organisations to use extra funds has been questioned, the witnesses should comment on that briefly. Senator O'Rourke will make the next contribution and will be followed by Senator Norris.

Senator O’Rourke

Like other members, I thank the witnesses for coming before the joint committee and for explaining their case so clearly. I wish to focus on the people to whom Fr. Joe Cantwell and Sr. Rita Kelly referred, namely, the returning religious and the effort made to put them at ease with the changed Ireland they encounter on their return. Perhaps many of the things they discover or encounter on their return feel alien to them. In general, did such people return home on many occasions during their lives? If they did, perhaps life here would not appear so strange to them.

I do not know which speaker said that he or she had carried out work with two points of interest, the first being development education in schools. I think Fr. Cantwell talked about young people. I find that when one talks to young people about development aid, they have only a vague idea of what it means. Does Fr. Cantwell have any thoughts on making it a module in second level school or on how it can be so advanced?

I am aware that the Irish Missionary Union has a dual purpose. One of its purposes is to fit its people back into Ireland, while the other is to use them and the considerable skills they have gained throughout their lives to advance causes in Ireland. This is where the greatest help for Irish people would arise. I have found on a parochial basis that missionaries are extremely radical, perhaps to answer the point so nicely and delicately made by Deputy Michael D. Higgins that missionaries who return are radical in their opinions. They have been forced to cut corners, live life in the raw and find solutions to difficulties and situations as they find them rather than jumping on the head of a pin, as many religious people do in Ireland and which has no connection with life as missionaries have found it in their fields.

This same radicalism can be used to great effect in Ireland. I imagine that many of the Irish Missionary Union's members wish to do this. Why should they lose the skills they honed over so many years and in so many difficult situations? Are these skills are free from intrusion by the established Church when missionaries return to Ireland or are they forced to toe the line in many issues? Are missionaries free to be radical? I hope I am not embarrassing the speakers.

Senator Ryan

Senator O'Rourke might get them into trouble.

Senator O’Rourke

We will see.

Deputy M. Higgins

I think Senator O'Rourke knows the answer to it.

Senator O’Rourke

No, not really. This is a very real skill which missionaries could bring to contemporary Irish life. They could tear away the miasma of subterfuge that is present and get to the root of problems.

The speakers referred to asylum seekers. In what geographical areas of Ireland and in what guise is the Irish Missionary Union dealing with asylum seekers? What is its role in dealing with asylum seekers? I would like to hear the speakers' thoughts on asylum seekers in Ireland, what they regard as the shortcomings of how Ireland deals with asylum seekers and their ideas about how asylum seekers should be dealt with. As I have very strong ideas, I am interested to hear the way in which speakers would present their thoughts on the matter.

I very much admire what the Irish Missionary Union is attempting to do, which is highly practical. It is endeavouring to settle its people back in Ireland. I hope it does not settle them too much. It also endeavours to use their skills. Perhaps speakers from the Irish Missionary Union will be able to answer the questions I put to them. I congratulate them on their work.

Senator Norris

I also welcome our visitors. We are honoured by their presence because Irish missionaries have certainly served us well and carried out very noble work in difficult days for the various churches. I am not a Roman Catholic but I support the Medical Missionaries of Mary. I think Sr. Kelly mentioned that she is one of their members. I support the Medical Missionaries of Mary because when the father of a friend died, he asked people to send contributions to them instead of sending wreaths. The Medical Missionaries of Mary now send me little magazines and I send them some money every so often. They do wonderful work and I have no difficulty in supporting it.

The same is true with regard to pensions. We need to examine the entire issue of pensions. It is not just a matter for returning missionaries. The situation concerning the pensions of retired Army personnel is utterly scandalous. They are being swindled out of their pensions simply because they were caught in exactly the same kind of anomaly. I hope that this issue will be raised with the relevant Department as well.

Regarding Sr. Rita's dream of the resource centre, I need to know more as I am unsure that this is an internal Irish matter of returning missionaries getting together. Unless we know more about its function in society, I am uncertain that it would not be more appropriate for the churches to fund the centre from the resources they gain from realising some of their properties. On the other hand, if this can be demonstrated as being valuable to society rather than looking after the interests and well-being of wonderful people who have come home, we should examine the question of giving it support.

In line with what some of my colleagues have said, it is highly appropriate and efficient to give money to the missionaries on the basis of the work we have witnessed. "By their fruit shall ye know them" and we know that the fruit is, by and large, a very good return for the money invested. At the same time, there must be a certain degree of delicacy, which is usually observed. Owing to the separation of Church and State, missionary work must be directed towards the wonderful work carried out in education, health, rural development and so on. Mission-specific missionary work is outdated as there are not many conversions or much proselytising. In these days of sometimes unjustified criticism of a great religion such as Islam, we cannot be seen to promote evangelisation in this manner. It is a matter for the adherents of the different religious groups.

In this respect, I am not asking for a reply. I do not want to put decent people in an awkward situation but it would be wrong for Irish taxpayers' money to be used specifically in the HIV and AIDS programme if it did not include clear, specific and factual information regarding the transmission of sexually transmitted diseases and the use of condoms. I will not ask for a response because it is foolish to get one's friends into trouble. However, it would be wrong and immoral for taxpayer's money to be used for programmes that exclude this effective and important method of containing a savage and horrible disease.

Senator Kitt

I join the Chairman in welcoming our visitors today. I too do not understand why funding is so low. When our visitors reply, perhaps they could say what they think they should receive. I am sure they will say there is no limit. As the Chairman said, there is a question of the capacity of the organisation involved.

I am aware of the work that has been done by the missionaries' resource services and missionaries in Africa generally. The Chairman led us to São Paulo this time last year where we met the Holy Ghost.

Senator Norris

That must have been an encounter and a half.

Senator Kitt

The Holy Ghost missionaries.

Senator O’Rourke

I thought the officials were acting in a more knowledgeable manner.

Senator Mooney

The Senator has certainly livened up the proceedings.

Senator Kitt

We met all the missionaries. They were very effective and radical in what they were doing in São Paulo. Missionaries are involved in every facet of life in developing countries and the question of trade has been raised and written about often in recent months. A businessman from Uganda was on the radio this morning discussing how to get a market in Europe for coffee, particularly in Ireland. He certainly sold his message very well. Do missionaries have any involvement in this aspect of the issue? We always speak about overseas development aid but the question of trade has probably not been raised as often. I was referring to the Holy Ghost missionaries earlier. The Chairman understood what I meant.

Chairman

I did. Our time is getting tight.

Senator Ryan

As most of the questions I wished to ask were put already, I will be brief. Irish missionaries have more to answer for than they know. I was a member of the Divine Word Missionaries, SVD, for two years, which is the cause of my being here.

Deputy Davern

That guarantees the delegation will get no more money.

Senator Ryan

Deputy Davern means it will get no more money because it is responsible for my being here. Will the delegation comment on the two-way system of volunteering? Volunteering in development, whether it be in a religious or secular way, sends back to Ireland many people who are well qualified to challenge many aspects of Irish society. Development aid is not a one-way system. It is hugely beneficial. I do not mean trade or tied aid. If we were to give up the human link and simply see ourselves as dispensing financial largesse or as highly paid professionals, we would lose that. Some people in Ireland would be happy if it were lost. Returned development workers in Comhlámh are often perceived to be a nuisance by people who think they know what is good for the world generally.

Given the contacts and level of expertise to which the delegation has access, will it quantify the capacity it has to absorb extra resources? How many more people in each project listed could reasonably be provided with services? The delegation may send that information to the Chairman afterwards.

I have an interest in the issue of small arms and the incredible infestation by the European small arms industry, particularly in the Great Lakes area of Africa. It is a profound ethical issue. From my knowledge of missionaries, their priorities with regard to ethics are a long way from those issues identified as ethical priorities by some people in the Church at home. They have a more broadly defined concept of ethics. I would like to hear more on this issue, but perhaps not now.

Will the delegation quantify how much it could handle if resources were available? That information need not be given today. We face the argument that even if our aid budget were doubled, we would not be able to find projects on which to use it. It is not a real argument but the more information we have, the better.

Deputy P. Breen

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak here this afternoon. Like many of the committee members I travelled to Zambia last year to see at first hand the excellent work done by the missionaries there. As I know the Chairman is caught for time, I will ask a quick question.

What are the criteria and how does the delegation assess funding applications for various charities and groups in the Third World? I spoke with a priest working in Nairobi who was in the process of erecting a building when funding ran short before the roof was put on. Is it similar to housing aid for the elderly whereby nothing can be built until the grant has been received?

Senator Leyden

I welcome the missionary representatives. They have done enormous work for Ireland over the years. I am surprised by the level of funding because it is a great conduit for Irish money. Nobody is more scrupulous than the missionary brothers, sisters and priests. I notice the Divine Word Missionaries, SVD, are not represented. They are located in Donamon, Roscommon, and do tremendous work at home and abroad, but they do not seem to receive any funding. Given our aspiration to reach 0.7% of gross domestic product in overseas aid in the future, there would be no better conduit than the religious orders abroad.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins mentioned APSO. I was a volunteer on an electoral mission to Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1998 and I greatly admire the work of that organisation. I was amazed to find an organisation that was so effective in recruiting volunteers from this country to work on missions abroad. The volunteers were lay people who were active but they were stepped down for no good reason. Perhaps the Chairman or former Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, knows why this was done. I am not sure on whose watch it was done but I believe, as someone who worked with APSO and admires its work, that it was a retrograde step to disband an organisation that was of so much benefit to the country.

Senator Norris

Hear, hear.

Senator Leyden

It operated separately from Government, other non-governmental organisations and so forth but it was dismantled without any explanation. I would like an explanation from the Chairman or from Deputy O'Donnell.

Mr. Greally

As a former staff member of APSO I will refrain from getting into the details of what happened there. A considerable number of the missionary organisations have been involved in volunteering activities over the years separate from the activities of APSO. Generally volunteering now is of a short-term nature in the sense of people going abroad for approximately ten weeks. The activity is more of the exposure rather than development variety. One of the problems with long-term volunteering is that there is a perception, which can be correct at times, that volunteers are taking the jobs of local people who could fill the positions. There is a sensitivity around that issue.

Deputy M. Higgins

I think that is a debate that has not, but should have, happened. The point made by Mr. Greally is questionable. In my experience it is valid in some circumstances but invalid in others.

Mr. Greally

The current situation is that a project has been initiated with Development Co-operation Ireland aimed at setting up a volunteering centre. We have been in regular contact with DCI and one of the commitments in our strategic plan is to facilitate the missionary groups and to bring them together to develop codes of good practice so that there is a level of quality control over the activities undertaken. That is not to say that there is a problem with quality. Our facilitation aims to highlight that volunteering takes place and is done well. It is a form of publicity for missionary activities.

The missionary development fund was set up in 2003. Its predecessor was the NGO co-financing scheme, which still exists within DCI. The basic model is one of response to applications. The Irish Missionary Resource Service has an application system. The congregations apply to the IMRS for funding, mostly for capital building projects, through their Dublin or Irish offices. The IMRS then processes the applications and an external committee assesses each project.

One problem is that we receive far more applications for small sums of between €40,000 to €60,000 than our funding can meet. As a result of this, at a meeting last Friday it was decided that projects seeking sums of €70,000 or €80,000 would be cut back. The view was taken that it would be better to spread the money more thinly in order that every project gets something.

Unfortunately, the funding is not meeting the needs of the missionary personnel. I reiterate the point that the money goes directly into the projects, with none spent on bureaucracy or administration. The IMRS will be enhancing the information available on the evaluation of projects to facilitate the missionary organisations with their applications.

In terms of capacity, our strategic plan indicates a figure of €20 million by the year 2008. We are examining the issue of increasing funding but we want to do it on a phased basis so that the IMRS can build its structures to meet the demands generated by having additional resources. We will also be examining the possibility of obtaining funding from other sources. Even though we did not say so explicitly in our strategic plan, we will look to DCI for that €20 million for the period ending in 2008. We would prefer to discuss matters in terms of figures rather than the numbers of people who may be funded because we are moving into a more integrated programme approach where the focus is on ongoing work rather than individuals.

Deputy O’Donnell

Is it on a project by project basis at present? Surely that is unsatisfactory given that the rest of the programme works on a multi-annual programme basis so that people can plan for following years. Obviously, because the work of the IMRS concerns the sustainable support of poor communities, security and funding is required for the following year. Am I to understand that the service is moving to a multi-annual programme?

Mr. Greally

Yes, we have not yet reached agreement with DCI but ongoing discussions and the development of our strategic plan are on that basis. Of the 82 member organisations, we are considering a programmatic approach with approximately six to eight at the outset. As it is a new way of working, we are approaching it on a phased basis rather than biting off more than we can chew. We will be able to provide more comprehensive feedback at the end of the next two years. While issues arise in terms of our capacity to spend the money, I have no doubt that the capacity is available.

Chairman

Our experience was that missionaries worked with pennies. They made significant progress with very little money. They did not waste resources. It is ridiculous to raise the concept of value for money because all money was spent on projects. These are important and require increased funding.

I am concerned that the service is too modest in its planning for the longer term and is not setting its sights high enough. The current situation is that, whether the Government reaches 0.7% of GDP in 2010, for which date this committee has stated its unanimous preference, or 2012, funding will have moved to a new scale when the target has been reached. It is advisable to examine closely the basis for that and the capacity available to the service's members. I am aware that, as the service has operated for a short period as a cohesive body, this matter arose suddenly for it. For this reason it should move quickly on the matter and should not set its sights too low. As noted by everybody here, the work carried out by the service's members is important and represents great value for money, although we emphasise value for lives. It appears that a significant capacity is available but is not properly supported.

Sister Ursula Sharpe

When the IMRS was established with the instigation of DCI, the 80 congregations referred to were based in Ireland. However, the congregations and the local communities to which we delegate functions can no longer directly approach DCI for grants. Until two years ago, various funding opportunities existed to us. For example, we could directly approach embassies in the relevant country. I was able to access a significant sum for HIV-AIDS in Uganda by this means. We were also able to approach DCI directly with our proposals, which would involve sums larger than €50,000 and might cover a two or three-year programme.

It is no longer possible for us or the congregations and local groups with which we work to make these approaches. Everything must go through the IMRS. The project budget for the IMRS and all the other organisations is €2 million to €3 million. Fr. Cantwell's ten or 11 groups in Zambia must also go through the IMRS. It may appear that the IMRS is a wonderful organisation but it significantly financially limits the missionaries. I agree with the Chairman's statement that our sights should be set much higher.

Chairman

It is very urgent at this stage. Things are moving very quickly no matter where one goes. Although arguments may arise over different aspects of it, the volume of money, which has increased in the past six to eight years, will rise again greatly.

Deputy O’Donnell

I am concerned in hearing Sr. Sharpe because the Irish Missionary Resource Service was established in order to improve the situation for the missionary orders working in the field. I know this because it happened when I was Minister of State. The whole motivation was to increase the funding and resources available to the orders in order that additional funding could be accessed. If we are now hearing that they have a reduced access to funding, this is not what was intended. We should take this up with DCI or the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs.

I am familiar with the work done, particularly in Uganda with AIDS orphans. A huge amount of important life-saving work has been done in that country, where large numbers of children have been orphaned by HIV-AIDS. These orphans are cared for by the sisters and priests. This is not an issue that can be postponed. The money, which is available, is needed. Without even talking about expanding budgets, on the basis of funds that are currently available for Irish-funded projects and operations in the Third World, missionary groups should have as much money as they want. We know that the work carried out by them is good and the groups have been tested over many years. They have low administrative costs. The volunteer labour has been stoical over many generations of workers, in Africa in particular.

I support Sr. Ursula Sharpe's statement on changes in the budgets of DCI, which were meant to improve the situation rather make things more difficult. We should take the point up directly. It is important that the missionary orders and their partners in the local communities can access funds at embassy level because the embassy personnel are on the ground and know the local village, the location of the well and other realities on the ground. A burdensome and bureaucratic system of assessment should not have to be carried out in DCI.

Senator Mooney

On a point of information and for the sake of clarity rather than to be contentious, the elimination of APSO was a policy decision taken after considerable gestation. These things do not occur overnight. With regard to the creation of this resource union, was Deputy O'Donnell not the Minister of State in question at the time?

Deputy O’Donnell

The resource to have a dedicated funding mechanism for missionaries was a separate proposal that came from the review process of the Ireland Aid programme in the context of expansion of the budget. The issue of the APSO being integrated into DCI was one of corporate governance. As I understand it, many of the activities previously done by APSO are now being done by DCI. It was a matter of subsuming the organisation, which had a separate board. Reviews were carried out on the success of this.

Senator O’Rourke

When exactly did this happen?

Deputy O’Donnell

It occurred around 2002, I believe, or perhaps in 2003. The main point is that the functions are still being funded.

Chairman

Yes, we want to look to the future. It has emerged clearly here that there is a problem in this area.

Deputy M. Higgins

I wish to make a point directly relevant to our guests. It was a valuable asset to have people in embassies to whom missionaries could go with projects, with a decision and concrete figure forthcoming. It has been stated that increased funding must be prepared for in order to use it well. It is scandalous that staff numbers in DCI have not been increased. Reference has been made to the review group and how the process works. As far as I understand, not a single extra person has been hired, which is part of the reason the volunteer structure to replace APSO is constantly being reviewed. It is scandalous that we are talking about all of this money, about a structure to replace APSO, and there has been a regrading but no additional staff.

Senator Mooney

There does not seem to be any thinking regarding the impact, which is the point I made earlier. We are cursing the dark.

Chairman

There is a co-ordinated group. It has set new targets. In our view they are not setting the targets high enough. That is the position. The group has the capacity to handle matters and the way it currently does so is exemplary.

Deputy M. Higgins

There should be someone in every embassy to help, if we are serious about it.

Chairman

We will follow up the embassy side of this. Unfortunately, we are running out of time. Does Fr. Cantwell want to say something?

Fr. Cantwell

I would like to respond to some of the points made. Senator O'Rourke asked whether we were considering developing a module on overseas development for the second level education curriculum. We have been negotiating that and have made some suggestions regarding the inclusion of some type of module on missionaries, missionary work and overseas development in the second level curriculum. In addition, we have a programme entitled "Mission Live". This is focused mainly on the month of October. We try to engage particularly with secondary schools but also with some upper primary school classes on the work of development overseas and creating awareness. We have people on the road all the time speaking in churches and schools on overseas development work and the work carried out by missionaries. Irish missionaries have at times been referred to as very good ambassadors; they do much work.

On the arms trade, it is one of the scandals of this age that arms are so freely available. Some of the people who are engaged in the small arms trade are big business people. It is the cause of war. If people did not have arms there would not be war. At least it would have far less disastrous consequences. I have in mind places such as Rwanda, Zimbabwe and many other parts of Africa, especially around the Great Lakes region and east and central Africa. The availability of arms there is frightening. The whole area is rendered insecure by the presence of arms. I would support any effort our Government could make to reduce the availability of arms.

I would like to clarify our views on the issue of pensions. Most returned missionaries are able to access pensions if they are over the age of 66. However, the question is whether people who have spent their lives as missionaries, perhaps 40 or 50 years, could access pensions and still live in the country where they have worked all their lives, where the climate is beautiful, where they are happy living and where people like to have them around. If they could get some recognition of the work they have done it would be a great advantage to them. That money would probably go towards the running of that mission and would help fund other projects.

Chairman

We have run out of time. There is another group waiting and we do not wish to delay it too long. The members of the delegation may get an opportunity to speak afterwards. Obviously we will be following up urgently on some of the issues with them because we are concerned about the question of there not being the capacity to use the money. That is a matter we are considering separately.

There are various kinds of non-contributory pensions but we want to try to bring the people concerned into the contributory pension system where means testing is not involved. We have brought most other people into the system. A group of people who have returned must work on a means test basis. We will return to the group on that matter because we will be exploring it further to get an idea of the numbers involved.

There is much we could say but we do not have time to say any more at present. I thank both groups for coming before the committee today. It has been particularly interesting. Members have a great interest in, and considerable knowledge of, their work and would like to offer support for their work in the future.

Sitting suspended at 3.52 p.m. and resumed at 3.58 p.m.