JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Oct 2005

Australian Parliamentary Delegation: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome the members of the delegation from the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade of the Australian Parliament — Senator Alan Ferguson, committee chairman; Mr. Kerry Bartlett, MP; Senator Andrew Bartlett; Senator Ursula Stephens who is originally from County Wicklow; Senator Gavin Marshall and Mr. Philip Barresi, MP. They are accompanied by Mr. Elton Humphrey, secretary to the committee.

Deputies Pat Carey, Michael D. Higgins and Bernard Allen and Senator Paul Bradford are members of the Oireachtas joint committee. Deputy Allen and Senator Bradford represent the Fine Gael Party, while Deputy Higgins is the Labour Party spokesperson on foreign affairs. Deputy Allen is the Fine Gael spokesperson. Senator Bradford is the Fine Gael spokesperson on foreign affairs in the Seanad. Deputy Carey is Chairman of the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body. He was Vice Chairman of this committee but has recently been asked to act as Joint Chairman of that body. He and I are members of the Fianna Fáil Party.

The committee is delighted to meet the delegation. I invite the chairman to make a presentation, after which I am certain our committee members will have questions to ask and points to raise.

Mr. Alan Ferguson

I thank the Chairman. I must correct one statement. Not every member of the delegation is a member of the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade. This is a parliamentary delegation which has been selected by the various parties within the parliament, although I am quite sure that, if it was not the case before, each member of the delegation has a keen appreciation of matters related to foreign affairs and their relationship with other countries. This is most important.

I will outline briefly the work of our committee. As far as I am aware, it is a unique committee among the parliamentary bodies with which I am familiar in that it is not just a committee on foreign affairs but a committee on foreign affairs, defence and trade. As such, we are responsible for those three portfolios. It was considered by our forebears that each of these three portfolios was interlinked in decision-making. Therefore, the Australian Parliament has always had a Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade. It is the largest committee in the parliament, made up of Members of the House of Representatives and the Senate and members of the government, opposition and minor parties.

We see fit to divide our committee into four sub-committees for each of the portfolios as well as human rights. Each of the sub-committees has its own chairman, usually a former senior Member of Parliament or a former Minister. Each of the sub-committees conducts its own inquiries. Inquiries are also conducted by the main committee.

I will cite examples of the work we undertake. The foreign affairs sub-committee is conducting an inquiry into Australia's relationship with South Korea and developments on the Korean Peninsula. The trade sub-committee is conducting an inquiry into trade and investment opportunities in north Africa, having recently completed a similar inquiry in respect of the Gulf states and central Europe. The defence sub-committee has almost completed an inquiry into and review of Australia's defence relationship with the United States of America which is a very close ally. Australia has fought alongside the United States in every major conflict during the past 100 years. The sub-committee decided this relationship needed to be looked at again because sometimes long-standing agreements between countries are taken for granted and not looked at as keenly as they should be. The sub-committee will report before Christmas. The human rights sub-committee is examining human rights dialogues and their effectiveness with particular emphasis on the human rights dialogues ongoing with China.

Each of the sub-committees conducts its own inquiries and reports back. Their reports are authorised by the main committee which then reports to parliament. We do not report to the government but to parliament, which then debates it. The main committee occasionally takes on significant inquiries. For example, in 2001, we conducted a two-year inquiry into Australia's role and relationship with the United Nations in the post-Cold War era, which also included reform of the United Nations and some recommendations that we put to our parliament.

In the lifetime of the previous parliament, we had a watching brief on the war on terror, whereby, owing to the federal nature of our country, we had to examine the preparedness of state authorities in particular to respond and react to a potential terrorist attack. When an event or terrorist attack takes place, one of the problems is that the local authorities are the first on the scene. In such circumstances, who decides whether it is a terrorist attack or a common criminal act? We, therefore, had to consider all the relationships between our state and federal bodies in responding and reacting to terrorist attack. That was just one aspect at which we looked.

We also examined the ability of hospitals to handle mass injuries, particularly burns victims. We had some insight into that, of course, because of the Bali bombing. Australian hospitals, particularly in Darwin, were put under a great deal of pressure and reacted magnificently. We had to consider instant reactions.

That is some of the work that our committee does. On this visit, we spent a week in Turkey before coming here since, as well as the common interest that we have with Turkey because of the importance of Anzac Day and the Gallipoli landings in our history and the formation of our nation, our relationship with that country has been quite strong. Issues have arisen regarding Anzac Day, such as the remaking of a road at the site, together with Turkey's application to accede to the European Union, which was a hot topic when we were there. We had a very interesting six days.

It might be best if we open the meeting to general questions in order that people can ask each other things if they wish. We would certainly be willing to answer any questions that might come our way, and some of my colleagues may have some for the members on issues relating to the committee's foreign affairs responsibilities.

Chairman

Deputy Liz O'Donnell, who has just entered, was Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs with responsibility for development aid. We have a sub-committee on that subject, of which Senator Kitt is Chairman. We also have a sub-committee on human rights chaired by Senator Bradford, who has had to leave for a moment.

Senator Ferguson mentioned the issue of preparedness for disasters and terrorism. It certainly seems now that all countries must have stand-by arrangements for large-scale disasters such as the tsunami and the earthquake in Pakistani Kashmir. People have come together to do their best but we are not as well prepared as we should be for various kinds of disasters. Had we studied similar disasters in advance and been prepared, we would have been better able to move in and take action. All our hearts are there, as well as a fair amount of our money and people, but on an international basis we should be better prepared. I would be interested to hear the witnesses' views in that regard.

I would also like to hear their comments on Timor-Leste, in which we have an interest, since it is among our priority countries. We have seven priority countries; six in sub-Saharan Africa and Timor-Leste. I would be interested to hear the delegation's views on what is happening there and how they see it developing.

People abroad were mentioned. We have a DION committee that works with people in the United Kingdom; we have quite a few associations in that country. Senator Mooney is very interested in the subject and keeps in close contact with people in various societies and groups in the UK, the US and possibly even Australia.

Senator Mooney

My contacts do not yet reach as far as Australia but I would not object to having such contacts.

Chairman

We have a special Irish abroad unit in the Department of Foreign Affairs, through which we channel certain funds. We have different kinds of problems. The committee recently visited the United States, since there is still a fair number of undocumented Irish there. Various measures have been taken over the years to regularise the situation but the exact number — it may be between 30,000 and 50,000 — is not really known. The Hispanic states and Mexico to the south may have 10 million undocumented people there, making it a very important issue for the US. We are trying to tidy up the balance of our numbers, since we have many people of Irish origin in the US.

We have also had a very close relationship with Australia. The delegation will find that everyone present is familiar with current affairs there. I was one of those who signed the social security agreement with Australia on behalf of Ireland in, I believe, 1991. That was another indication of the comings and goings from one country to the other, with people coming and working here or vice versa. With very cordial relations, we have a great deal of common ground.

Deputy Allen

I welcome the delegation. I especially welcome Senator Stephens back home.

Before the most recent general election in Australia, the government said that it would not be supporting any further military intervention in Iraq. In February 2005, Australia decided to send 450 troops. What factors influenced the reversal of policy?

Mr. Ferguson

The 450 troops were sent after a request to replace the Netherlands, which withdrew its troops. The job, in a southern province of Iraq, Al-Muthanna, was to protect Japanese troops and engineers involved in reconstruction. If more troops had not been sent to protect the unarmed Japanese, they would have had to withdraw. Owing to the important reconstruction work that they were doing at the time, the government said that it would replace the troops from the Netherlands, who had been taken home. Our troops are nearly all based in Al-Muthanna, a southern province where there has not been quite so much disturbance or terrorist action. We also have some, but very few, troops in Baghdad. Essentially, they are looking after our embassy staff and providing protection for Australians in Iraq. For a long period, we had some people involved in protecting the airport in Baghdad but that may no longer be the case. That was the reason for the extra 450 troops to be sent to Iraq.

More recently, we have committed extra troops to Afghanistan. I believe the numbers were once again in excess of 400. They went to Afghanistan in the lead-up to the elections there, when more activity was expected among those opposed to the processes taking place.

Deputy Allen

I understand that the delegates spent a week in Turkey, where I presume they met a wide range of human rights and minority groups. Did they meet Kurdish representatives and representatives of the Greek Orthodox Church? What was their impression of the human rights situation there?

Mr. Ferguson

We did not meet those groups. We had meetings with government officials in Ankara over the course of a day and a half. After that, we travelled to the Gallipoli Peninsula, including Anzac Cove, because none of us had been there before. Developments in this area have been topical in recent times in Australia. My colleague, Senator Bartlett, took part in an inquiry into public criticisms of the widening of a road around Anzac Cove to accommodate the increasing numbers of tourists to the national park there. Senator Bartlett may comment further on this. For this year's Anzac Day service, on the 90th anniversary of the Anzac Cove landing, in excess of 20,000 Australians — perhaps as many as 30,000 — visited that area. Such visitor numbers put tremendous pressure on the environment. There was some criticism that the widening of the road was not done in as sensitive a way as it should have been. We were not of that impression in general but one cannot make those types of judgments from home.

Turkish Government officials raised the issue of the Kurdistan Workers' Party during some of our meetings. They regard the members of this organisation as terrorists, or at least guerilla fighters, and are very much opposed to any change of status for the Kurds living in the eastern part of Turkey, which is the poorer part of the state. In general, however, we did not concentrate on human rights issues during our visit. Senator Bartlett may wish to add further to this.

Mr. Andrew Bartlett

I will not say much more about Gallipoli because that is very much an Australian issue. That area must cope not only with many thousands of Australian visitors but also many thousands of Turkish tourists. Tourism in general is a significant aspect of the Turkish economy and there are many infrastructure issues.

Human rights issues tended to arise not during official meetings but perhaps during other conversations on the fringes of those meetings. There is enormous sensitivity in regard to the Kurdish issue and the status of Cyprus. There is also a general sensitivity in respect of what are considered insults to Turkey from elsewhere. These are issues the country must work through in moving towards EU membership. Speaking as an outsider, it would be enormously beneficial for both Europe and Turkey for that accession to proceed. It is a development with possible significance on a global scale.

From talking to a wide range of Turkish people, not just government representatives, there is a perception that the EU's manner of engaging with Turkey relates only partly to that country's situation and is reflective of attitudes towards Islam in general. This impacts on many other countries in the region which are not democratic but still perceive it very much through that prism. This scenario represents dangers as well as opportunities. The hurdles that must be overcome to attain EU membership will require Turkey to confront some of the human rights issues it faces and will encourage it to be less sensitive about criticisms raised by other states in this regard.

There is a not insignificant Kurdish community in parts of Australia. Members of that community often emphasise the economic disadvantage endured by Kurds in eastern Turkey as much as they refer to the nationalist or ethnic issue. It is of particular significance that the eastern region has greater economic problems and difficulties with modernisation compared with the west. Tackling the situation through that prism could go some way to addressing at least some of the problems.

Deputy M. Higgins

I join the Chairman and my colleague, Deputy Allen, in welcoming the delegation. Fíorchaoin fáilte romhaibh.

I have had an interest in Australia for a long time because an aunt and uncle of mine are buried there. My uncle was involved in building the railways and is buried in Toowoomba. His uncles and aunts in turn had emigrated from County Clare to New South Wales and Queensland.

Australia has had a long relationship, going back more than 100 years, as an ally of the United States in various conflicts. The current engagement in Iraq is quite different from previous enterprises in terms of its source and its international legality. It is a pre-emptive strike which is outside the norms of international law. In addition, it does not have a mandate from the United Nations Security Council.

Notwithstanding this, I am interested in the Australian Parliament's human rights sub-committee. As the Chairman pointed out, we have two sub-committees, one dealing with human rights and the other development issues. Ireland has not yet ratified the optional protocol on the international convention on torture and cruel and unusual punishments. What is the delegation's position on this? At the previous meeting of this committee, we discussed the ratification of the United Nations convention against corruption which Ireland signed in December 2003 and which it looks set to ratify in 2006. The European Union ratified it on 15 September 2005, leaving it free to member states to do likewise. To date, Hungary and France have done so. What is Australia's position in this regard?

There is a wonderful Australian tradition of speaking frankly. I am extremely concerned whenever I hear the phrase "preventative detention". It is not 100 miles from the experience of internment on this island. There is a real difficulty in making it fit, even in the thinnest way, within the international code of protective legislation for the person. I understand that Prime Minister Howard has acknowledged the difficulties in this regard in the context, for example, of Britain's extension of the period of detention without recourse. Such developments create problems in regard to the vindication of human rights law.

I am also interested in the delegates' views on the situation in Timor-Leste. It is an issue in which this committee has a particular interest. What position does Australia now favour for the resolution of the resources debate with Timor-Leste? This is a subject that will arise again in our considerations.

From the perspective of trade, there are opportunities which we on both sides could develop more. I was formerly Minister with responsibility for cultural issues, including film. I distinctly recall meeting Mel Gibson here in the Parliament when he was in Ireland during the filming of "Braveheart". In the area of film, there is immense opportunity for deeper and mutually beneficial relationships in audio-visual and cultural products in that the English speaking world has a common market in terms of particular types of products. There are also opportunities for cultural expressions of, in the cast of Australia, a federal and state kind.

I have deliberately left to last the following point so as not to misconstrue it. On the occasion of the celebration of the Australian constitution I proposed at a meeting of this committee that we send a resolution of congratulations to the Australians and added that this was a wonderful opportunity to acknowledge the original occupants of Australia. That proposal led to many interviews with the Sydney Morning Herald in the middle of the night and the expressed displeasure of His Excellency the Australian ambassador who felt it was unfortunate I had mentioned the original residents in the same paragraph I had extended congratulations in respect of the constitution. I did not believe the issue was about only property rights but rather that those people, now descendants, who represent Australia did not arrive in an empty country. That, essentially, was my point and I could not understand why it created such furore. However, the delegation is most welcome.

Chairman

We will take questions from Deputy Pat Carey before the delegation replies.

Deputy Carey

Like others, I welcome the delegation. I had the pleasure of meeting the chairman in Australia in 1998 and thank him for his hospitality which was second to none. I am sure a discussion or analysis of last Saturday's Australian rules match is outside the remit of this committee.

Mr. Ferguson

Do not mention it.

Deputy Carey

We might.

Chairman

We will not mention it unless the delegation does.

Mr. Ferguson

The committee is well prepared.

Deputy Carey

My next point relates to our support for Irish emigrants. When in Australia, we met in Melbourne two diametrically opposite groups of Irish people, namely, the new young dynamic Irish who entertained us with a lavish black tie dinner and a small group of mainly single men from an Irish club who provided us in great detail with the scores of the Gaelic football matches that had been played the previous weekend. The latter group appeared, mentally, not to have moved outside Ireland. In the context of the support given by the Irish Government to emigrants, is there room for a Ministry between the two governments in terms of further support for a diminishing group of Irish people? I am sure the Irish Government would be willing to extend such support if the scale of the problem was known. As far as I recall, the Irish club did not have even a basic computer on which to record who was living and who had passed away. Perhaps this is an issue we could pursue at a later date.

I was interested in the chairman's opening remarks regarding the report on China, particularly in relation to human rights. Ireland has close trading links with China. When visiting China last year other members and I raised the issue of human rights there. What is the delegation's view on improvements in the human rights regime in China? I watched a fairly disturbing programme last night about abortions in a particular province in China in the context of the one child family policy. We continually receive representations in relation to the Falun Gong movement and the pressures put on its members. I am aware the problem exists in other areas also. Perhaps the delegation might share its insights on that issue.

In the run up to the WTO discussions in Hong Kong, how does the delegation, as part of the CAIRNS group, see progress being made? I am aware of Australia's concerns in relation to the sugar regime though I am not sure it should be concerned about wine given the quantity it is selling to Ireland. While I do not expect the delegation to disclose its hand, in its view what progress will be made at the talks on agricultural prices and quotas and other WTO issues?

Mr. Ferguson

I am not sure we can answer all the questions in full. There is a diverse view among us on many of the issues raised by Deputy Michael Higgins. Senator Andrew Bartlett, as a former leader of the democrats in the Senate, would have strong views on the human rights issues which would be different from other members of the committee. There are different views on all the other issues.

I will comment briefly on some of the issues and will then invite my colleagues to state their views which are different from mine. We are a bipartisan committee travelling as a delegation.

Chairman

As are we, chairman.

Mr. Ferguson

The Irish are used to being frank in their discussions. The Irish diaspora consists of 30% of Australians and that may be the reason we too are quite frank. I will comment on two or three of the issues raised.

I cannot recall the treaty to which Deputy Michael D. Higgins referred.

Deputy M. Higgins

I mentioned two, namely, the United Nations convention on the elimination of corruption and the optional protocol on the international convention on torture and cruel and unusual punishments.

Mr. Ferguson

Yes. That is not part of the committee's overview. A special committee entitled the Joint Standing Committee on Treaties has been established to examine proposals on treaties and to make recommendations to parliament thereon. Australia has not signed the optional protocol.

Mr. A. Bartlett

Sorry, we have not ratified it. The Joint Standing Committee on Treaties recently held an inquiry in relation to the optional protocol. As far as I can recall, parties are split on the issue with government members recommending it be ratified and non-government members recommending it not be ratified. A unanimous decision has been taken to ratify the convention on the elimination of corruption, though I am not sure if that has been done.

Deputy M. Higgins

I do not believe Australia has ratified the optional protocol. Like Ireland, it signed the protocol at the end of 2003 and is waiting to ratifiy it.

Mr. A. Bartlett

We are moving to ratify it.

Mr. Ferguson

The issue is one for the Joint Standing Committee on Treaties which is reasonably new having been established only in 1996.

Mr. A. Bartlett

It was established by the coalition government.

Mr. Ferguson

The issue of preventative detention was also raised. I presume the issue was raised in the context of the terrorism laws recently introduced. We are proposing new terrorism laws which will be hotly debated in the community and on which there has been much public comment already. The preventative detention measures are being put in place in the light of terrorist activities and not for any other reason. I will leave others, who may have differing views, to speak on that matter.

On the rescource debate in relation to East Timor and the sea boundary between it and Australia, the Australian Government has agreed that Australia will get 90% of the royalties and East Timor will get 10%. What is at issue is the location of the boundary and those talks are ongoing.

One must remember Australia has played a significant role in the East Timor issue since 1999. We were the first and only country with a presence there, and a great number of troops were involved. It dented considerably our relationship with Indonesia, which had been at a high point. Entering East Timor represented its lowest point. We still believe it was the right action to take. Events in the past six years have meant our relationship with Indonesia is at the highest point it has ever been, bearing in mind that Australia contributed $1 billion in the aftermath of the tsunami. That was a significant contribution for a country with a population of 20 million to the reconstruction and restoration work there.

Our policy towards East Timor changed and the fact that we were there and prevented more casualties was seen in a good light by other countries around the world. We have removed the last of our troops and only one or two advisers remain. I do not know if anyone else visited East Timor but we were there on two or three occasions since, including December 1999 and February 2002.

I understand why the current ambassador may have taken the committee to task on the constitution because he was a former Minister with responsibility for indigenous affairs. I do not know if the committee spoke to him or his predecessor. It is also a debatable issue in our community. There is a variety of views on all these issues. The prevailing view of the government was that it would not be included as part of the preamble.

I skated over the surface of those issues and invite my colleagues to speak, particularly those who have opposing views. Senator Stephens might wish to comment on the position of Irish emigrants, being one herself. In general terms, I would not have known of the existence of the group of single men we discussed who still live an Irish life in Australia. I would have thought the Irish in particular were some of the best emigrants and had assimilated in Australia faster and better than almost anybody else.

Deputy Carey

We were all slightly taken aback. Many of my extended family went to Australia and were fully integrated. This particular group of 20 or 30——

Mr. Ferguson

I would have thought they were the exception to the norm and that it would be an extremely small group. When we had mass immigration, particularly after the Second World War, Italian and Greek migrants arrived in large numbers, along with other Europeans, and of course they formed their own groups within which they were comfortable. While we have strong Italian and Greek clubs, they think of themselves as Australian Greeks. Mr. PhilipBarresi was born in Italy and I am sure he considers himself an Australian, with a strong Italian heritage. I do not want to put words in Mr. Barresi's mouth as he can speak for himself.

Mr. Philip Barresi

My party will no longer endorse me.

Mr. Ferguson

The report on human rights in China is not yet complete. All our committee reports are available on the Internet. One will be able to see what we state in that report. The Falun Gong also make representations and give us a reasonably hard time, and it is difficult. When we enter into any trade agreements, someone always asks about the human rights issue.

I will move on to the CAIRNS group. The WTO talks and the proposed talks in Hong Kong have long stagnated and no progress has occurred for a number of years. It is a problem which has caused Australia, with many other countries, to seek bilateral arrangements. We have signed bilateral arrangements with Singapore and Thailand. We have a free trade agreement with the United States of America. We are in preliminary negotiations on a free trade agreement with China. It will not happen for some time because there are many difficulties.

The WTO progressed for a long time until it suddenly halted and stalled. People were more interested in the riots outside the door than what was happening inside. Our trading arrangements are influenced by an attempt to put bilateral agreements in place. Naturally, our preference and everybody's preference is for multilateral agreements. If they cannot be achieved, one cannot blame countries for attempting to strike bilateral agreements. That is what we have done during the past four or five years.

The agreements with Singapore and Thailand have been in place for some time, and resulted in an immediate drop of tariffs. In some countries it has made a significant impact on trading arrangements. The terms of the agreement with the United States will not come into operation as quickly but we gained immediate access to many markets, which did not happen through the WTO. We will not know whether it will help us or be of great advantage until it has operated for a number of years.

I briefly outlined answers to those questions. If others have different views, they are entitled to put them.

Mr. A. Bartlett

I am interested in the comment made on older Irish emigrants. I focus on immigration issues and this is one of the hidden aspects of immigration stories. Australia has done extremely well in bringing in immigrant communities of enormous diversity from a range of cultures. An almost unavoidable consequence as new communities enter, settle, integrate, develop and become prosperous is that a certain segment is left behind. It is a larger problem for those who come from non-English speaking cultures. The children will leave to travel the world and the small group of older people——

Mr. Ferguson

Particularly uneducated people.

Mr. A. Bartlett

Issues develop with uneducated people as they get older such as dementia. They lose their English language skills and return to their mother tongue. That is a hidden issue in the migration story, perhaps because the numbers are fairly small and people of all political persuasion are more preoccupied with issues happening in the here and now. Now that I hear the problem with regard to Irish emigrants mentioned, I am not surprised. Perhaps it is less obvious because the Irish have an English-speaking background and are omnipresent throughout Australia. Even though the group is small, perhaps it is worth extra attention.

The question of anti-terrorist laws and detention is probably the greatest political issue for us. While we are here it is boiling away at home and will boil even hotter when we return. That is not because of our return but because parliament will sit again and it is likely to be raised as an issue. There is a range of views and it is a wide debate. Australia does not have a separate Bill of Rights such as there is in the EU. My understanding of the human rights convention is that it provides a floor through which one cannot plummet. We do not have that protection.

Deputy M. Higgins

It may interest the delegation that the British Prime Minister, Mr. Tony Blair, proposes to derogate in statute law from some of the fundamental protections of the European Convention on Human Rights. That will be the most controversial aspect of the legislation.

Mr. A. Bartlett

In that context it is probably relevant to say that our Prime Minister is quite happy to admit he is looking to Britain to some extent. No country ever says it is totally copying any other country, and that is flowing out from the London bombings of course and some of the shared linkages we have there.

The only other matter I would mention is the indigenous connection. Across the political spectrum, irrespective of whatever parties were in government, as well as small parties such as mine which were never in power, we have all failed badly in this regard. One of the ways we have failed is by not acknowledging it because it is just too difficult. Perhaps I can give a simplistic reason, but it is worthwhile for others to remind us from time to time. That does not solve the problem, but as with issues that are intractable, this is enormously difficult. I do not believe anyone knows how to address some of the problems, but when one has a group within the community that has a life expectancy 20 years shorter than the rest of us, it shows that something is badly wrong.

Speaking personally, even though there are different views on how to deal with the problem, we all acknowledge that we have collectively failed on it. It is good to be reminded of this. Coming to anywhere in Europe, or visiting places that are thousands of years old throughout Turkey or in a quick visit to Newgrange, which is 5,200 years old, one tends to think of Australia as being very new. However, we have quite a long history as well, something that is rarely acknowledged for a variety of reasons. Personally I believe it is worth acknowledging, although it is obviously a question fraught with sensitivities.

Deputy O’Donnell

I welcome the delegation. I met the chairman of the standing committee when I had the privilege of being on a delegation to Australia last year led by the Ceann Comhairle. I am interested in all the matters being dealt with. The modern migration story of Australia is a fascinating area and we had a long discussion with the committee and with the line Minister when we were there. As the delegation will recall, it was close to the time of the election and migration was a big issue. The election was called within days of our visit, it was a very pressing issue.

In the course of the discussion, the stated position of the government was made clear, that it was not going to allow ad hoc migration in an unplanned way, which is the entitlement of any sovereign state. However, by way of solidarity with the teeming humanity of the poor and the stricken in the world, the Minister stated that Australia was to increase its programmed refugee intake, perhaps to compensate for the strict migration policies previously in place jurisdictionally. In other words, there would be planned and managed programmed refugee reception and integration. Could the delegation update the committee on that? Has that initiative been continued and is it something that Australia will progress as a response to very great poverty in Africa, its own region and elsewhere to allow for very high numbers of programmed refugees and to allow them to be integrated, looked after and become citizens?

On a more light-hearted note, I am delighted to see that tourism figures from Australia to Ireland are up by 32% on the figures for last year. Something like 125,000 Australians visited Ireland as tourists. I want to acknowledge, too, the great success of the working holiday visa scheme for our youngsters. It has truly been a revelation for many Irish families that so many of our youngsters are travelling to Australia, and are permitted to do so, having a wonderful time and expanding their horizons. More Irish young people are going to Australia — it may have something to do with the weather — than young Australians coming here. In terms of reciprocity, however, it is important to stress that young Australians are more than welcome to come to Ireland under the terms of our agreement, which has been very successful. I hope this trend will continue into the future because, more than tourism, trade and the traditional good relations between our two countries, the fact of young Australians and Irish getting to know each other and living among us for long periods of time is a real investment for the future both in Ireland and Australia.

Senator Bradford

I, too, welcome the delegation. I concur with what Deputy O'Donnell said concerning the interchange of young people between Australia and Ireland. As recently as last weekend there was a seminar in Dublin which advocated that more and more Irish people should be allowed to travel to Australia on working holiday visas. Some 4,000 attended the seminar, which shows the extent of the interest among Irish young people and more mature adults in going to Australia, on working holiday visas or in some cases as emigrants.

A seminar was held recently on the subject of Irish people joining the Australian police force. I am not sure which Australian state's representatives came here to advertise its attractiveness for people wanting to join its police force, but again hundreds attended the seminar and many of them will go to Australia.

I have a great interest in, rather than knowledge of, the country. My colleague, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, mentioned that his uncle was building railways across the Australian continent.

Deputy M. Higgins

I am much older than the Senator, of course.

Senator Bradford

If I am to boast a little, my grandmother's first cousin was John Curtin, who of course was the Australian Prime Minister during the Second World War. From what I have read about John Curtin, it appears that he led the change in Australian thinking towards a departure from a dependence on Britain and closer links with the United States and then Asia. Regrettably, it was the Australian Labour Party that he joined — by default I am sure.

My question is about Australia's ties to its neighbour countries. There was a time when Australia, although it was thousands of miles away, was to all intents and purposes almost a part of Europe, in terms of its people, migration policy, trade and contacts. Now it is much more dependent on neighbouring countries and works much more closely with China. How is that affecting Australia's world view from a trade perspective? It still has close links with the United States, not just militarily but politically. Does it see its future lying more within its own region rather than being an outpost of Europe?

Mr. Ferguson

I will answer those questions very briefly. On the last question about trading with our neighbouring countries, Japan, China and South Korea are three of the top four. Taiwan is in eighth or ninth position. There is considerable trade with countries in our near vicinity. There has been much concentration on Asia and north Asia in so far as those trading ties are concerned.

Two questions were asked about the migration programme. The programme has increased quite considerably and since the election in particular the focus has primarily been on refugees coming to Australia. However, the Deputy asked about something before that.

Deputy O’Donnell

That was just about the programme as regards ad hoc immigration and the policy being implemented.

Mr. Ferguson

We have a very structured migration programme. This year it is about 120,000, which includes a quota of 14,000 refugees. Where Senator Bartlett and I would differ is that we have a mandatory detention programme for people who enter our country as unauthorised arrivals. We have always been of the view that we need an orderly migration programme, a view shared by both major parties. We made that commitment beforehand and it has happened.

Mr. Barresi

To give the committee an indication of how focused we are on south-east Asia, we have signed free trade agreements with a number of nations in the area. We are currently in discussions with a couple more, which will hopefully lead to trade agreements as well. There is much focus on the area.

Senator Mooney

I am delighted the delegation is here and I hope they enjoy their stay. A total of seven Australian Prime Ministers have Irish ancestry, two of whom came from County Leitrim. One is Stanley Melbourne Bruce from the Anglo-Irish tradition, while the other was a man named Francis Forde who served for just one week. He came from three miles from where I live and we are very proud of the fact that he made such a contribution.

Mr. Barresi

They are both very noble. One was the only Prime Minister who ever lost his seat in an election and the other served the shortest term as Prime Minister.

Senator Mooney

Absolutely. He went on to be an ambassador after that.

I note that the delegation is keen on developing closer ties with ASEAN. I hope my colleagues made the point that we have a great concern about what is happening in Burma and that Australia should use its regional influence in this regard. It is outrageous that Burma has a democratically elected leader whose own supporters have no idea of her current state of health. That is an appalling violation of human rights and I hope it is kept in the forefront of discussion, apart from the economic issues that inevitably arise in any bilateral negotiations.

Chairman

I thank the delegation for coming to meet us today. We look forward to seeing them in the future. In fact, some of the members would like to see them in the very near future.

Mr. Ferguson

I thank the Chairman. I would like to leave him a small gift from the delegation.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.15 p.m. sine die.