Our first guests are the delegates from the Niall Mellon Township Trust. We are to have a discussion with Mr. Hugh Brennan, CEO; Mr. Paddy McGuinness, worldwide CEO, and Ms Kathryn O'Shea. Mr. Niall Mellon is late but hopes to be here. Members are knowledgeable about the Niall Mellon Township Trust and have all read the news reports. It is important that the delegates relate to the sub-committee what exactly they believe is a priority for the organisation, particularly in respect of Irish Aid. On hearing this I will open the discussion to members. I thank the delegates for accepting our invitation.
Overseas Development Assistance: Discussion with Niall Mellon Township Trust.
Mr. Paddy McGuinness
I have been working with development organisations for the past 30 years, mainly for Concern, but I have also worked with Oxfam overseas. I have joined Mr. Hugh Brennan, Mr. Niall Mellon and other colleagues to take the organisation to another level. It is the fastest growing charity on the island and is now the fourth largest NGO in terms of impact and turnover in overseas work and the funding received from the public. In many ways, it is a phenomenal success story which presents a challenge as we proceed. I will refer to what we do in South Africa, on which Mr. Brennan will elaborate.
The Niall Mellon Township Trust is a new NGO and different from the others. Concern, Trócaire and GOAL tend to cover a large number of countries and have a large number of programme areas, including health, education and HIV-AIDS. The trust is very much focused on housing provision in a particular country. While it focuses on housing, it does so in the context of building sustainable communities.
Concern, with which I worked for the past 30 years, works in 30 countries with a budget of €120 million, or approximately €4 million per country. The turnover of the Niall Mellon Township Trust in South Africa alone will probably be close to €40 million. The trust is very focused and operates on a large scale in a particular way. If one were to describe the relationship with the South African Government, one would state it was very close to a public private partnership. The Government of South Africa has a severe problem delivering houses in the townships. A private entrepreneur-driven organisation, albeit registered as a charity, has been able to show it that the problems can be solved.
The trust operates on a large scale, involves people and is very much driven by the volunteers. Some 2,000 will go to South Africa this year and by 2010 we hope to have 10,000 people from Ireland with experience of having been to a township. We also employ 2,000 people in South Africa. The Niall Mellon Township Trust is, therefore, an interesting NGO. Volunteers build some 5% of the houses provided. There is a team in South Africa building all year round. We have built 7,000 houses this year.
We have a very simple mission in appearing before the joint committee. To avail of funding under the Irish Aid scheme, one must meet certain criteria and we do not quite fit into the normal boxes. The maximum an organisation can receive under the block grant scheme for a single project is €200,000 per annum. There is also a multi-annual programme scheme, MAPS, with five bodies - Concern, Trócaire, GOAL, Self-Help and Christian Aid.
Will Mr. McGuinness elaborate on the €200,000 block grant?
Mr. Paddy McGuinness
If one applies to Irish Aid for funding, it has to find a slot for the organisation. Thankfully, the Niall Mellon Township Trust has broken through and been allocated €5 million. Our project has gone through the PEG process, an almost once-off external evaluation process. It is difficult for Irish Aid to slot our organisation into its framework. Most bodies would have spent 15 years to reach the level of business we are doing before being considered for the multi-annual programme scheme, a strategic partnership with Irish Aid. Only five agencies in Ireland have this strategic partnership with Irish Aid, in terms of turnover, volume of work and public support - Concern comes first, followed by Trócaire and GOAL. Ours is the fourth largest such organisation on the island. We have a natural niche but the problem is that we have reached that level very fast, something Irish Aid needs to consider. We must comply with its criteria and do not want any special privilege. When we are granted multi-annual funding, we can plan for the next three to four years, which is sustainable.
We want to take the model we have built in South Africa to other countries. Africa is failing in meeting its millennium development goals. We think we have something special which can make a significant impact. Most of the money the Niall Mellon Township Trust is spending in South Africa is actually coming from the South African Government, not from Irish Aid. While we have received €2.5 million from Irish Aid so far, we have been able to build the organisation to this size and scale with the support of the South African Government. From Irish Aid's point of view, we deliver good value for money. We hear the criticism all the time that donor countries give the money but what do the governments in those countries do? In our case, the South African Government is putting its money into the project and the Niall Mellon Township Trust is showing it how to make an impact on housing. Some 7,000 houses have been built this year and 50,000 people will be housed by this one charity. There is something to be learned from the way a private sector entrepreneur has entered into the development aid scheme and brought entrepreneurial skills to bear on a problem in South Africa. The organisation has made a big impact. It has the support of Nelson Mandela, Archbishop Tutu and President Mbeki.
In the coming years we hope to consider Tanzania and Lesotho as two potential new countries of operation. We understand we are a little different, but the way we say it is that we are different but good. Irish Aid needs to open its mind to other players in the development sector. The Irish ambassador in South Africa stated this charity has done more for the profile of Ireland in South Africa than the work the embassy has done in the past ten years.
I started as a volunteer in overseas development work. The increasing professionalism of development work almost excludes others from being part of it, whereas this charity has opened up opportunities for the Irish public to participate. Funding from Irish Aid goes back into the communities of those who work as volunteers for the township trust. It is a win-win for Irish Aid.
Mr. Hugh Brennan
The Niall Mellon Township Trust is very much a partnership organisation, whether working at home or in South Africa. One might think that from all the support we receive from the highest levels in South Africa we are working from the top down but the opposite is the case - we are working from the bottom up. Our first meeting with the beneficiaries of our houses takes place when we go into the townships and meet the local communities. Most of our projects are developed under a scheme called the people's housing process, whereby a group of people come together and form an association. They are all living in shacks in the township and negotiate with their local authority, the city of Cape Town or the provincial authorities for funding. They then look for "a supplier" - a building contractor. We are one of the suppliers on the scene. There are others, but not NGOs, who are working for profit.
The way the system works is that if one has an income of less than 3,500 rand per month, which approximates to €350 per month, one is entitled to a subsidy from the South African Government. The people come together and pool their subsidies which they then cede to the supplier, which in our case is the Niall Mellon Township Trust. Where they cede them to a contractor, the contractor must build the house for the subsidy and make a profit on it. Ours is a non-profit organisation and all of the subsidy money will be spent on the house. Because of the generosity of the Irish people and Irish Aid to date, we are able to add a top up which gives the people what we regard as decent housing. When we started in 2003, the subsidy was 13,000 rand, approximately €1,300, with which one could build only a very basic structure, four walls and a roof, with no plumbing and no electrics. It was literally just a place to sleep. People were moving from a shack into this dwelling.
We spoke to the government about providing quality housing. We ensure each house has electricity and indoor plumbing. Plumbing is the most important because it means that there is a constant supply of clean water. Members are aware of the problems posed by water borne illnesses, not only in the townships but throughout Africa. The scourge of the townships is simple illnesses such as vomiting and diarrhoea which hold the children and their parents back. When they move into the house, their lives change. They now have clean water and where they have electricity, the children can turn on a light and do their homework at home. These are major benefits about which we might not always think. We spoke to a number of international funders and one, in particular, asked if we could prove this. We can. We were speaking to the Minister for Foreign Affairs a while ago and he said surely one did not need to prove it, but we needed to do so and we did. We got researches in South Africa to make what they called a rapid impact assessment. The findings of this research are included in the handout circulated to members.
The benefit of home ownership is not limited to having a roof over one's head; there are significant benefits in terms of education. School principals tell us that when children move into a house, their grades improve greatly, partly due to the fact that they are healthier and can perform better. Imagine always being ashamed of one's existence and how one's self-esteem improves when one moves into a house. They are the effects shown by the research.
Other examples are safety and security. When the toilet block is located away from the house, it is not as safe to use. When it is located within the house, that element of security is created. This arose from the research done at the first township in which we worked. It provides for psychological well being and simply gives people a home, roots, stability and privacy. They are more employable when they move from the shack into a house.
It is a partnership process. We form partnerships with local people and communities, as well as the local authorities, whether it is in Cape Town or with the provincial government of Ekurhuleni in Gauteng. We have formed partnerships with the provincial and national governments; they are all on-side. That is why we are so keen to develop our partnership with Irish Aid.
I welcome Mr. Mellon. Mr. McGuinness has given us a general overview of the operation and focused on the issue of multi-annual funding by Irish Aid and the possible inclusion of the organisation represented. Mr. Brennan has gone through the intricacies of how it works on the ground.
Mr. Niall Mellon
First, I apologise for being late. My wife is due to have a baby in a couple of weeks and I was stuck in a surgery this morning.
I thank the Chairman and committee members for the help we have received in the past five or six years. Many of them have helped us with various fundraising efforts. I am not sure completely what has been said, but if our charity represents anything, it is a continuing of the tradition of Irish engagement in Africa. We all recognise that missionary numbers have dropped in recent years and that our charity offers the opportunity to continue the strong tradition of volunteering by Irish people. By the end of 2010 we estimate that 10,000 Irish people will have been with us, which speaks volumes for the level of interest shown by Irish people in Africa. As we debate the Irish Aid budget, it is important to recognise that developing countries not only need money, they also need the participation of Irish citizens, which can make an even bigger difference.
I will open the discussion. Members should limit themselves to two questions and try to avoid making speeches.
I compliment Mr. Mellon and his team on the work they have been doing. The flagship programme shows Ireland in a very good light. I also wish him and his wife success in the outcome of the pregnancy. Will he elaborate on the links his organisation has with the South African Government, especially in the housing programme? I know the organisation organises a blitz each year and that there is a factory coming on stream to build timber houses, but what does the organisation do for the rest of the year? What should the Irish Government do to support it, apart from provide funding? As a committee, we appreciate very much the €5 million the Government has allocated this year.
Mr. Hugh Brennan
Our links with state authorities start at the basic level; therefore, we work from the bottom up. Our first relationship is with the people of the townships; we then move to the local authorities such as those in Cape Town. As the provincial government is responsible for the subsidy payments, we must link in at that level. After that, there is a relationship with the national government which sets the policy. We have developed partnerships all along the line. Our partnership with Capetown involves finding suitable townships to assist them to achieve their targets. Our partnership with the provincial government is expanding all the time. The Deputy mentioned the factory; the provincial government indicated to us that it would come on board as a 50% partner in setting it up. Our partnership with the South African Government is more on a policy level. This is because there is a huge backlog for housing in the townships and there is a huge gap between rich and poor. While South Africa, especially Cape Town, is very wealthy, it is only second to Brazil in the gap between rich and poor. That means those at the bottom of the scale are greatly impoverished, a fact the South African Government recognises.
When apartheid came to an end, the population of South Africa was around 25 million. Nelson Mandela took a decision to open the borders and allow people to come home and there are now around 44 million people in the country, which is huge. The South African Government has achieved so much in such a short period but help is needed because the backlog is so great, something which it recognises. That is why it deals with us and tries to form such partnerships which are seen as public private partnerships. That is why it is so keen on our operation, our ideas for the factory and innovative ideas to tackle the problem.
Mr. Niall Mellon
To respond to the Deputy's question about what the Irish Government can do, we need much more debate. There has been much talk in recent years about getting the Irish Aid budget to the level of 0.7% of GDP, but there has been less talk about where and how the money will be spent. There will be €15 billion of taxpayers' money spent abroad in the next ten years; therefore, we need to debate how this money can be used most efficiently. It would be a terrible legacy if we were to sink large amounts of money into anonymous UN funds that historically do not have an efficient track record. Serious questions have to be asked. Are the people benefitting from the increased budget in terms of a feeling of goodwill? Most schoolchildren are not aware of where the aid money is going; therefore, there is no celebration of what is one the great legacies of the Celtic tiger, namely, our increased Irish Aid budget.
In our short time as a charity, one of the things we have noticed is the enormous feeling of self-worth among volunteers who come over for just one week. Many are successful business people and will talk about how it has opened their eyes to what is going on in the world. We must continue this journey, especially for our young people. At the beginning of the year our charity became the largest provider of homes for the poor in South Africa. That happened without any support from Irish Aid. We only received money in January, after we had become successful. In the last six years we received one cheque of €250,000. Questions need to be asked. Are we supporting new and emerging charities enough to get into this space? We must also find whether we have enough third level courses in Ireland to train people in the development area. We have this huge budget but if one considers the existing charities, one finds they have had to go overseas to fill some of their key positions because there are not enough trained people coming through the Irish universities. The most important thing we would like to achieve from today's meeting is recognition that this space in Irish Aid can be enlarged if we actively engage the private sector to play a role in the Irish aid arena.
Mr. Paddy McGuinness
I reiterate the point concerning people. Ireland used to have APSO, an enormous volunteer personal placement agency, but it no longer exists. Every time we touch a problem in Africa, we find there is a lack of expertise. There is a need for technical assistance, which had gone partly out of favour, for whatever reason. For Irish people to become involved in development is getting increasingly more difficult. The young people sitting in the Visitors' Gallery have had an opportunity to work for this charity, which is one of the few charities that take young people on board. We need to see much more engagement of Irish people in development. I started out in development. When I look at Trócaire, Concern and all the other agencies, the people who have driven those agencies are those who first started as volunteers overseas. We must encourage that spirit, which we in Ireland have drifted away from.
Irish Aid needs a policy unit to specifically figure out how it needs to spend its €15 billion over the next ten years. It needs to be strengthened in this area. I agree with Mr. Mellon with regard to the need for more debate. Ireland must move up a gear. It used to be the case that we always looked to Europe for direction. The Irish Aid programme is one of the best in the world and it must be pushing Europe to go in particular directions. We believe there is something in our charity that we can add to the Irish Aid armoury so it can also be used at a European level.
I welcome the delegation. I am very interested in the comments that all speakers have made so far in regard to their dealings with Irish Aid. This is an issue with which this sub-committee and the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs may be able to assist. I am specifically interested in the points raised by Mr. McGuinness with regard to what he believes Irish Aid should do.
The volunteer aspect of this programme has been seen in probably every constituency in the country - I am very familiar with it in my constituency through transition year students who are dealing with schools in South Africa, among other issues. There is no age profile in this regard and no one is left out. The most important point is that we have a substantial Irish Aid budget but it is important that people in Ireland realise where that money is going and how it is spent. It is crucial that Irish citizens should be able to see how their money can improve the quality of life for people who, through no fault of their own, are worse off than us.
What formal contacts has the trust had with Irish Aid with a view to trying to change, if not its ethos, its process with regard to getting people involved and increasing the trust's budget, which is important? I am aware that when the Taoiseach visited South Africa earlier this year there was a once-off payment of a €5 million grant. This project is working and delivering on the ground. I would like to know how the members of the delegation are getting on with Irish Aid in terms of trying to change that process, and how this sub-committee can assist them. To have regular contact from, if not meetings with the trust would keep the sub-committee up to date, which would be important.
My second question may have been covered earlier while I was not present. It concerns the criteria for the selection of people who are to be housed. I understand there is a massive backlog of people in South Africa. How does the trust select people to be housed as houses are built? Is it done on a list basis?
There have been media reports, if not evidence, that some of the houses where people were housed are being rented on to others. Is this true? If so, how widespread is the problem? What can be done to reduce it?
Mr. Paddy McGuinness
Irish Aid needs to invest more in communications. It is not investing enough in this area. It needs to engage with agencies like ours that get to places it cannot get to.
The format of development education operated not only by Irish Aid but by most of the NGOs in Ireland is a little tired. It is the same people talking to each other about the same issues, but not talking to the people. There is miscommunication. People almost want the trust to take all its volunteers overseas and provide development education to them. These people have had their lives transformed by being volunteers. Their lives have been fundamentally changed and they do not need to be educated. This is something we are trying to get through to Irish Aid and others.
There will be no better transformation of our society than by people going to the developing world and understanding what is going on. The question is how we link this with Irish Aid. We are quite happy to do this. We want Irish Aid that to be on the journey with us, as we want to be on a journey with it. We have no fear of Irish Aid, which we believe is by and large doing a good job. While there are things we would like to change, by and large we are proud of what Irish Aid does internationally. We are not in the negative camp, kicking and screaming against Irish Aid. However, we want it to come on board as a fresh partner and to think about communicating to people new and innovative ways, not just talk about the social, political, economic and cultural issues that go over the heads of most people.
We are in the business of transformational change. To have 10,000 people who will have walked in a township and smelt poverty will transform Irish society just like the missionaries transformed the fundamental DNA of Irish society towards development. This organisation has the capacity to do the same.
Mr. Hugh Brennan
On the Deputy's second question on how we choose our beneficiaries, we do not get involved in choosing individuals. We negotiate with the local community and the local authority, which gives us a list of beneficiaries. Under the people's housing process scheme, a number of people from the PHP will be housed in that township and then more of the houses we are building in the township will be used to house people from the city's waiting list. That is typically the way it is done throughout South Africa. Even if a person drops off the list for whatever reason, we do not allocate that house to an individual. It must go through the entire process, which must be transparent as otherwise it would be very contentious.
I did not answer Deputy O'Hanlon's question on the other work that takes place throughout the year. To take this year as an example, 250 houses will be built by the volunteers but throughout the rest of the year, fingers crossed, 6,750 houses will be built by local people from the townships who we are engaged in training and passing on skills to. They build the houses.
Mr. Niall Mellon
I will answer the question about houses being rented out. When I began this project in 2002, I was aware that a significant number of the houses would be let out because for some people it was an opportunity to put food on the table when they had an asset they could use. It has been over-sensationalised in the media here. At present, we believe 98% of the houses we build are occupied and less than 2% are let out. We are delighted with that. It is not a 100% occupancy rate but it is very close. It is not the case that those who let out their house are living in a villa in Marbella. In most cases, they are living in a shack at the back of the house and are using the income from letting it out to send their children to school or university or to feed and clothe them.
I welcome Mr. Mellon and his team. I wish Mr. Mellon's wife well in the coming week. I saw at first hand the work done by the trust when I visited the township in Cape Town with Mr. Mellon. People's dreams are being fulfilled as they see their shacks transformed into lovely houses. It is wonderful to see the delight on people's faces at having running water, proper toilets and electricity and to speak to the young people about how they are progressing in their education.
The Niall Mellon Township Trust is one of the few charities that reach out to people in a tangible way. The many volunteers who travel to South Africa every November to build the houses come from all walks of life. Many of them might have little knowledge of Irish Aid. In adopting this volunteer approach, the trust has shown how people can give of themselves to help those in developing countries. It is a great incentive for all of us to consider new and improved ways of offering such support.
I understand Mr. Mellon said recently that Irish Aid must engage more with business people and should focus on social responsibility and social opportunity. Will he expand on that? Mr. McGuinness observed that we should not focus too much on the educational qualifications of those who volunteer to go to South Africa to work with the trust. All that is required is that people are willing to give of their time. There are enough people who can show the volunteers what to do. Nevertheless, it is important that the message is conveyed to third level students that they should consider giving something back by volunteering in Third World countries.
I wish the delegates well in their endeavours. I have seen the great success they have achieved and I assure Mr. Mellon and his colleagues of my continued support.
Mr. Niall Mellon
I am occasionally asked to deliver speeches to companies on the topic of corporate social responsibility. In each case, I have referred to it as "corporate social opportunity". Many organisations find it difficult to retain staff and to maintain good morale. An excellent way of achieving this is to offer employees a chance to participate in something that is separate from the company's main business objectives.
We had a private meeting with the Vice President of South Africa some weeks ago at which she expressed her thanks on behalf of the South African people. From the beginning, we have made a point of not simply stating our intentions and objectives. Instead, we discuss the needs of those concerned and consider how best to support their objectives. It is important that there is that type of depth to any volunteerism effort. Our charity would not mean much if we simply brought over 2,000 people, built several hundred houses and then left. Mr. Brennan observed that we will employ almost 2,000 people in South Africa in the next year. Some 7,000 houses will be built through the hard work of the people themselves. There must be value behind our volunteerism efforts. It is not just about a one-week trip.
I thank the delegates for attending the meeting and congratulate them on the work they have done. Mr. McGuinness referred to extending the project. I note the trust has opened offices in Washington and New York. Are there plans to open any other offices? Will the trust continue its core objective of building houses or does it plan to extend its services?
In regard to Irish Aid, I appreciate it is difficult to carry out a critical analysis of a concept that is worthy in itself. However, I am concerned that in our rush to reach the target of 0.7%, we may lose sight of the value for money aspect. My concerns are not based on information I have but rather on information I do not have. One often sees television footage of a Minister visiting a new school in Zambia, Tanzania or elsewhere. That is most worthy but the question always comes to me as to whether there should be more than one school. I acknowledge that the delegates may consider it inappropriate to offer a view on this. Will they comment on the difficulty of getting on the ladder in regard to Irish Aid? I am aware of several organisations doing good work which have run into a brick wall in their dealings with Irish Aid and have thus decided to abandon ship.
Does Mr. Mellon have a view on the allocations to candidate countries? For example, the Taoiseach recently announced that Tanzania would receive €130 million in the next four years. Several members of that country's Government are under investigation for corruption. While I do not expect the delegates to comment on individual countries, do they accept there are concerns that the money going to some programme countries might be better spent otherwise? One of the reasons we are not currently in a position to come to any conclusions in this regard is because the Department will not release the independently audited reports that are carried out on some of these programmes.
Mr. Paddy McGuinness
We must be more careful about how funding is allocated both by Irish Aid and at the EU level. As well as funding countries directly, we also provide funding indirectly via our membership of the EU. There is a growing adherence to the concept of general budget support. In other words, we transfer an entire allocation of aid to a Third World country - a large block of money - and it is up to that state to take full responsibility for its administration. We agree with that approach in principle and it often works well.
However, where there is evidence of corruption, we must monitor carefully how that money is spent and ensure there is no fungibility, that is, that funds are not transferred from one budget line to another. We must monitor this constantly. While I support the broad thrust of what Irish Aid is doing, there must always be that caveat. I understand that at one point, the EU was considering giving 80% of its international aid budget to general budget support. It is complete madness to allocate that volume of money in that way.
We must find effective methods of targeting our aid allocations. Mr. Mellon and I had a meeting with the World Bank in Washington some weeks ago and there was much reference to the importance of good governance and legislative frameworks. We made the point that South Africa has the best constitution in the world and is making serious efforts at good governance. All these aspects are in place. There is enormous wealth in South Africa. Yet, since the end of apartheid, people in the townships have become poorer. The governance aspect to which constant reference is made is not sufficient. People living in the townships want a house and want their children to go to school.
There must be a point where direct intervention comes into play to break through the problems that exist. We should not lose sight of that. Irish Aid must build its own capacity. It has been hamstrung for years because it has not had the wherewithal to manage the increases in budget it has received. The danger with this is that money may end up being shoved out through other doors. There should not be disproportionate focus on our UN responsibilities. There should be no notion of a soft place to put our money. Difficult decisions must be made and we must ensure there is value for money.
I wish to pick up on Senator Ormonde's remarks on the private sector. The private sector must be engaged in development. I do not necessarily mean the private sector in Ireland, as the private sector in Africa must become involved in development. Ultimately, development is about creating jobs, employment and wealth. I work with other groups in Uganda where the private sector is being crowded out by the social sectors. The only place to be in Uganda is in the aid business, health or education. Its private sector has almost been squeezed out and there is virtually no investment in it. If we want to create jobs in Uganda, we also must invest in its private sector. A balance is required in this respect.
A great deal of intelligence is available. As Mr. Mellon observed, this issue is not just about money. He should forgive me for saying this but the most important attribute he has brought to bear in this charity has been his problem-solving intelligence, rather than money. While the money has been important, the biggest attribute has been the expertise to be able to state a problem can be solved and that the trust can work with people in the townships to demonstrate how it can be solved. I refer to the intelligence underlying the private sector. While there is both bad and good in the private sector and I do not suggest it offers a panacea, the positive attributes that have developed our economy are essential for the development of African economies. As for Irish Aid and the associated aid, there should be more discussion. The private sector here should be opened up. One should not end up with corporate social responsibility spin, whereby it evolves into a marketing exercise for the private sector in Ireland as one requires genuine engagement.
In response to Deputy Timmins, Mr. McGuinness effectively stated that in his opinion Irish Aid money was not being spent properly. The trust does this differently. From the responses--
Mr. Paddy McGuinness
Were we running it, we probably would do things differently. However, Irish Aid is in a cleft stick in this regard as it has not been given the requisite capacity. If members want my entire view on the subject, Irish Aid's existing organisation has been decapitated by decentralisation. It has been fragmented at the same time that its budgets have been increased. While I am aware that this is a highly sensitive matter, if members want my views, this constitutes an issue. Irish Aid needs the capacity to do its job properly. I have stated that, by and large, it is on the right track. However, I would be nervous about increasing amounts of money being devoted to general budget support. One must be careful in this regard in both the Irish and European contexts; there should be some checks and balances in this respect. As Deputy Timmins remarked, it is difficult to penetrate the issue. However, unless one provides the requisite capacity, a danger arises.
I thank the Chairman for his indulgence as I am not a member of the sub-committee. I particularly wished to attend to welcome Mr. Mellon and his team and congratulate and compliment them on the magnificent work they are doing. In particular, I refer to my constituent and friend, Mr. Brennan, a significant member of the organisation who has done a great deal of work in my constituency in County Wicklow to raise the profile of the Niall Mellon Township Trust. In particular, his visits to local schools have been powerful and highly successful. He should indicate whether there are plans to get in touch with other schools, second level schools in particular. I note the presence in the Visitors Gallery of many young people who obviously are highly idealistic and energetic. Will such visits be organised to kindle such enthusiasm in secondary school students, in particular?
Mr. Hugh Brennan
I thank the Deputy for his kind comments. While we have plans in place, it probably is fair to state they are of an ad hoc nature because of the intensity of the pressure we are under. However, we take every possible opportunity to speak in schools and all invitations we receive from primary and post-primary schools or third level institutions are taken on board. We have spoken in colleges and have linked up with Trinity College’s MBA programme and Athlone Institute of Technology’s programme. Moreover, we have spoken at Coláiste Dhúlaigh, Coolock, and a number of schools in my region. One point that may be lost is that we have volunteers throughout the country who also are asked to spread the word among schools. This takes place nationwide.
I am a member of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and its Sub-Committee on Human Rights and appreciate the opportunity to attend the Sub-Committee on Overseas Development. I join those who have paid tribute to Mr. Mellon and the Niall Mellon Township Trust. I wish it well. I know some of the people involved in other capacities.
I wish to make a few points because I have participated in the development debate for a long time and aspects of this discussion have taken dangerous directions. It is not a choice between, for example, carrying out the highly valuable direct intervention work and doing the terribly important macroanalysis work. As a practical example, nearly 80% or 90% of the seed that arrives in Zambia or Ghana on foot of a food emergency is genetically modified, while at the same time, one may require the privatisation of the banking system that has been operating microcredit systems. When a person scatters the seed during the small rains, that seed is dead. Hence one may destroy agriculture, unless one considers the seeds programme or the entire aid programme and the manner in which aid is transferred.
Proper housing is wonderful and changes the lives of everyone, including the extended family. However, one must be able to deal with what is happening in respect of the World Bank. I refer to many of its actions in Africa. This point is highly relevant because of last week's report on the dangers posed by world hunger. Curiously, there was good news in respect of a study conducted in Africa in the past five years. Small producers have achieved high levels of productivity and may be able to reach some forms of food security. However, the transitions forced on some agricultural communities by World Bank thinking have been entirely dangerous and destructive. Another issue that arises in South Africa pertains to the right to a water supply and whether people in townships can be excluded. I use these two examples simply to make the point that work at the macro level is required in dealing with the institutions, including the one founded at Bretton Woods, as well as work at the micro level. It would be wrong to consider one to be in competition with the other as both are required.
I have been involved with the academic world for 18 to 20 years and while I agree with Mr. McGuinness on one point, I must contradict some points in this respect. There is an oversupply of development and human rights graduates in Ireland. However, there is no facility for placing them and I owe it to many of my acquaintance to make this point truthfully. It should be noted that Irish Aid is understaffed and does not have the requisite capacity. People may dance around the issue of the shift to Limerick and one can send people who may have external experience abroad on a three-month or four-month course on development studies. However, this cannot constitute being able to handle development issues.
I am an honorary adjunct professor at the Irish Centre for Human Rights at NUI, Galway, and I am highly concerned about the many who have earned good degrees pertaining to human rights. In the case of Norway, for example, one can apply one's human rights experience to either domestic human rights affairs or Norwegian aid policy. However, there is no entry point for Irish graduates to the programmes, which is highly serious. I am completely in favour of volunteering and I am not contradicting the point made by Mr. McGuinness and Mr. Mellon that it is when one puts oneself into the experience of the people that one becomes transformed as a person and becomes a much more valuable person. However, a problem arises.
The next part of the question on accountability pertains to either governance or corruption. We would be much better were a research programme on the subject under way. The Swedish Dag Hammarskjöld foundation has asked people to study good governance. However, there is no capacity in Ireland for doing such work and I have serious questions about the research function of Irish Aid. I am talking about a practical issue that the Chairman regularly raises in respect of corruption. For example, if one takes the Swedish work of Professor Svensson in Uganda, it was pointed out there that where one publishes in local newspapers and broadcasts on radio stations so that people know the allocation at central level, there was a shift from 87% loss of funds to 14% in southern Uganda. That work is there. There is a notion that one can operate without the competent trained people being in place. They are highly qualified trained people but they lack the practical experience.
Why should one produce a string of graduates with master's degrees in development or human rights, as we do, and leave them to go around all the non-governmental organisations looking for internships? Why not have the internship as a regular part of the formation of the postgraduate course? This is straightforward. It is not a case of either-or. If we are going to have fair trade, responsible aid, debt and a debate on the human right to water, we need people who are able to debate those issues at the macro level. Even if when the Niall Mellon Township Trust provided the houses in South Africa, the gap between what the trust has available to it by way of income in South Africa for the interns - a big, elaborate southern African development project - is 15 cent. There are people, such as Kadar Asmal, who would say that I am just being old-fashioned about this but he is going to construct the transformation of southern Africa on 15 cent. It cannot be done so one needs the economists and people building the houses.
I must say because I have direct experience of it that the private sector in respect of secondary education in Uganda is incredibly expensive. Many young Ugandan students are being ripped off right, left and centre by the privatisation of secondary education.
Does Mr. McGuinness wish to respond?
Mr. Paddy McGuinness
I agree with Deputy Higgins in respect of the macro and the micro. There is no doubt that one needs to do both and get involved at all levels. Deputy Higgins described a paradox quite well. Many people are graduates and want to get into development work but cannot, yet there is a shortage when one goes to the developing world looking for people. The shortage is everywhere. Why is this happening?
APSO is gone from the armoury of Irish Aid so we have done away with the mechanism we had for matching those. I know APSO had faults but we threw the baby out with the bath water when we got rid of that.
Absolutely. I agree entirely.
Mr. Paddy McGuinness
We must have a discussion about the gap we have in respect of the supply that is coming. I was with SUAS at a debate involving young people with extraordinary lives in Trinity College last night. The energy of young graduates from that organisation who want to be involved is palpable and they are doing it in a different way. They are doing it in Kenya and India and are also doing it domestically. The energy exists.
However, if one were to ask SUAS about how it is getting on with its funding, it would say that it is crucified and that the situation is very difficult. These are new organisations that are coming into the arena. It is something at which we and Irish Aid must look collectively. How do we support this innovation and these young people to get involved and be part of something rather than having to go through ten hurdles? How do we encourage that?
I know Irish Aid is having discussions with various groups on the structural issue around human resources as we go forward. When I was in Concern, I used to say that if we kept going the way we were going, the inevitable consequence would be that we would be staffed by all Indian graduates. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that but would we as a nation lose out by not engaging our young people in development? We must engage young people in development.
I agree with Deputy Higgins that we should have a structured internship programme right across the voluntary sector with Irish Aid and the non-governmental organisations that is properly resourced. I know we agree on many things here. In respect of research and policy analysis, one does not want to wake up in ten years' time and say we spent a lot of money but if we had done it slightly differently here or there, we could have made it more effective. We must invest in policy research and analysis so that we get it right as we go forward.
From my own standpoint, I will ask Mr. Mellon a general question. I know it is a completely different thing. My local authority is Dungarvan Town Council. Over the past eight years since I have been in politics, I have gained a significant appreciation of proper social housing. I am not trying to make my Fianna Fáil colleagues feel good when I say this but the social and affordable housing provisions in the Planning and Development Act 2000 were very good policy and I have seen the benefits in my local authority and county as a result. I gained a considerable appreciation for good housing and good planning when it comes to social housing in particular.
I know that what the trust is doing in Africa is completely different. When it comes to Irish Aid and multi-annual funding, the first question that comes to mind is the fact that the value the trust gives this issue differentiates it from the other agencies. In respect of including the trust in the multi-annual funding system, someone could ask the trust what value it brings that others do not and whether there are other agencies around the world and in Europe that do exactly the same work. That is the key question. The trust must justify why we should include it in that system. I would appreciate it if Mr. Mellon could answer that question.
Mr. Niall Mellon
Twenty years ago, people had landline telephones and now they have mobiles. The market is changing. Within the aid arena, we must accept that it is a new space and that there are new ways rather than just the old ones. Neither one necessarily competes with the other. There must be a huge debate. This is of such significance that Dáil Éireann should set aside two or three days for a serious debate that is much bigger than the 0.7% figure and truly deals with where and how our aid money will be spent.
Communicating to everyone in Ireland the good work that it does has been an aspiration of Irish Aid for at least three or four years. However, it must accept that it has failed because most young people do not remotely know where Irish Aid money is being spent, good or bad. The national goodwill that should have gone with that money has been missed.
Irish Aid has been very slow to come to the table and accept the private sector. We had a dinner with a few very senior people in Irish Aid and talked about the future for the agency. They have accepted that they see the private sector in that space but it is my view that this will be a very slow crawl over the next ten years unless there is a fundamental change by way of legislation to the make-up of Irish Aid. It is like taking a hockey player and asking him to come and play GAA or soccer. If they have not been in that space, it will take them too long to get into it.
About six weeks ago, I gave a speech to the Congressional Black Caucus in Washington. I had an important meeting with the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi. I also had a meeting on the same day with the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid. The very top echelons of the US government are looking with fascination at the achievements of our charity and, more importantly, the widespread support from so many Irish people who wish to volunteer. In 2003, President Bush introduced a programme called volunteers for prosperity. With a population of 300 million, the US only managed to send 20,000 people overseas last year. As a small nation, we have a significant opportunity to stand up for our individual approach to these problems. We must support the UN and we are part of the EU. While it is important to support the UN and the EU, there is too much of a "herd and sheep" mentality in the international aid community.
I met Mr. Mellon in Washington during his reception at the Congressional Black Caucus several months ago. While it did not strike me as strange, I wondered whether anyone else was doing this. Mr. Mellon obviously made the correct approaches to these people; he made the case. They are convinced that it is a good case and they are funding him. Has anyone else in the US done that or is it a once-off?
Mr. Niall Mellon
It is rare for charities to take such a businesslike approach. It was asked why we should be considered for the multi-annual programme scheme and whether anyone globally is doing as we have done. Last week, Mr. McGuinness and I met the chairman of Habitat for Humanity International, the planet's largest producer of charity homes for the poor. It produces an average of 250 homes or a maximum of 500 homes in most of the 103 countries in which it operates. Given our level of success in South Africa, Habitat for Humanity International was interested in meeting us to for suggestions on how to provide more housing. We can use leverage to not only build on our model, but to show others how to do it.
We are six years old and are the largest builder of homes for the poor in a country of 45 million, but that we are not on the Irish MAPS says more about Irish Aid's approach than it does about us. We must continue to try to sell our case for participation in it. The answer is that private sector charities are not treated equally in the Irish Aid consideration process. For example, the whole of the American nation tried to send aid in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, but the most effective provider of short-term aid proved to be Wal-Mart, which was able to send more water, food and supplies overnight than the entire American aid support programme managed in a few days. It did so thanks to its business approach. While that approach is not the be all and end all, my point is that Wal-Mart was experienced in this regard. It is important that a leading private sector charity NGO such as ourselves be endorsed at the MAPS level, if only to serve as an inspiration to other private sector charities, that is, if they do something right, they too may qualify for MAPS.
While our trust was started by a business person, we are an NGO in every sense as much as Concern, GOAL and the other established names. In the Irish charities space, I was surprised by the level of resistance to us and the little whispers about our charity when it started. I had not realised how protective the existing charities would be about their space. We are not trying to eat into their budgets or space. Rather, we want them to accept that this is a growing area. An additional €300 million or €400 million will enter the aid arena per annum and many of the charities do not have the capacity to spend it.
Were I in charge of Irish Aid, I would not just say what I would do with its €1.2 billion or €1.5 billion funding every year. It should face the same challenge as us. We will turn over approximately €35 million this year, €5 million of which will come from Irish Aid. If Irish Aid has €1.2 billion, I would challenge it to use that money to raise another €2 billion or €3 billion. Were a private sector charity given €1.2 billion, it would need to raise three or four times that amount. I thank each committee member for the invitation to attend today, as it means a great deal to us, but if anything is to come of this meeting, members must leave this room and request more debate in the Houses of the Oireachtas on where Irish Aid is going and ask for more transparency in its funding.
Mr. Paddy McGuinness
It should not be the case that the longer an organisation is around and the bigger it is, the more eligible it is for participation in MAPS. If it is a question of being around for a long time and being large, we are larger than two of the charities in MAPS. It should be about impact, innovation, influence, leverage and the support of the Irish people. I know the charities in MAPS and we should look at what impact they are having on poverty. That is what it is about at the end of the day. Are they being innovative or are they doing what they did 20 years ago? Are they learning and moving? Are they influencing the macro-policies? We have no doubt that we are affecting housing policies in South Africa. How does the organisation get leverage on the money spent, so that it is not just additional money? By 2012 we will spend €1.5 billion on overseas aid. However, if we do not have the real support of everyone - not just intellectuals and Deputies - hard choices will be made in economies and people will want to know whether their money is having an impact on the problem. It is clear that we have that support. We would be happy to be considered for participation in MAPS under any criterion.
If that is the case, I will make a proposal. Members have listened to our guests' comments.
I wish to make a point on Mr. McGuinness's comments. It is extraordinary how tired documentaries in the aid area are. If one wanted to be serious about developing Irish Aid and doing something in respect of the communications strategy, one would encourage a film-making genre behind this. At the National University of Ireland, Galway, there is a master's degree in film and human rights. The same could be done in relation to aid. Instead, one gets wordy, dated presentations where viewers are first asked to feel compassionate, then horrified and finally great, after which the experience is over for another year or two. This does not work, but on the communications side, much is possible. Money from Irish Aid should be given to independent film-makers to make films about the lives of people from their own perspectives in all these countries.
There is a theme to this meeting. It is not just in respect of the Deputy's comments. There is a theme with regard to research, the placement of individuals and staffing.
The research should be positive. Just look at the agenda of the Scandinavian countries' aid programmes. That is where the contrast is.
It is not a matter of money, as the money is there. There is a theme running through the Deputy's repeated questions on why something is not being done if it is useful for the formulation of policy. Mr. McGuinness stated that the formulation of policy in Irish Aid, which the Deputy is also questioning, is the key issue.
How is Irish aid being spent? Do we need a full discussion on it? We should open up the debate. In the Seanad we could concentrate on this area of how we could have an intellectual discussion of the floor on where we are in regard to Irish Aid. This would provide a golden opportunity and I intend to take it up, through the Seanad.
I will make a formal proposal, namely, that we will write to the Minister of State, Deputy Micheál Kitt, to support our guests' application for inclusion in MAPS.
I agree.
We could consider sending a delegation to South Africa. We were caught on the steps of the Capitol and Deputy John Cregan, in a weak moment, agreed immediately.
I thank Ms Kathryn O'Shea, Mr. Paddy McGuinness and, last but not least, Mr. Niall Mellon. We appreciate your attendance. It was a very good opening debate for the sub-committee. I hope something will come of it. What you said today is quite prescient. You were not that guarded and that is good. You are obviously concerned as to how the budget is being spent and the direction in which it is going. That was very useful to the sub-committee. The transcript will be available to anyone who wishes to read it.
Mr. Niall Mellon
Thank you. I want to say, on behalf of all of us, that we appreciate the time the members of the sub-committee have given us today.
The sub-committee went into private session at 12.51 p.m. and adjourned at 12.55 p.m. sine die.