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JOINT COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sub-Committee on Human Rights) díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 May 2010

Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission: Discussion with Commissioner for Women’s Rights

I welcome Dr. Soraya Rahim Sobhrang, Commissioner for Women's Rights at the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission. She is accompanied by Mr. Jim Loughran of Front Line.

Dr. Sobhrang is responsible for the monitoring, protection and promotion of women's rights in Afghanistan. She lives under constant threat from the Taliban and other conservative elements within Afghan society. She trained at the faculty of medicine in Kabul University. She completed training courses in the fields of management, women's rights, gender and psychology in Hamburg, Germany, before returning to Afghanistan to work with the Ministry of Women's Affairs as technical and political deputy Minister. In 1984 she began her work as an adviser for the women's rights protection and development unit of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission and in 1985 she was selected as Commissioner for Women's Rights.

Dr. Sobhrang is in Dublin as one of the five nominees for the Front Line human rights defenders award for 2010. I congratulate her on this nomination and wish her well tomorrow in City Hall at 8 a.m. The annual award is given to a human rights defender who, at great personal risk, has made an outstanding contribution to the defence of the rights of others. Those of us who will be in attendance look forward to the result tomorrow.

I wish to inform the witnesses that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, you are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence you are to give this committee. If you are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and you continue to so do, you are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of your evidence. You are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and you are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, you should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

This committee is a sub-committee of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs so it is small in membership. However, the proceedings are being recorded and are being broadcast to the offices of Members. The proceedings are also published in the Official Report.

Mr. Jim Loughran

I thank the committee for this opportunity to introduce Dr. Sobhrang and her work to the committee. The Front Line award is to distinguish one human rights defender who has made an exceptional contribution but above and beyond the promotion of that person's profile, Front Line regards this award as an opportunity to secure additional protection for that person. This is why this opportunity for Dr. Sobhrang to address the committee is so important.

Dr. Soraya Sobhrang

I apologise for my English which is very poor. I am very happy to see there are women members of this very important committee. I thank the committee for this opportunity to talk about human rights and women's rights in particular, in Afghanistan. After the fall of the Taliban the new Government set up a conference to establish a human rights commission in Afghanistan in 2002. In 2004 the commission came into our constitution and structure of government and is independent. It is supported by all western countries in every way. We cover all Afghanistan. We have 14 offices and nine commissioners. A major goal is the protection, promotion and monitoring of human rights in Afghanistan. We have different sections looking after children's rights, women's rights, human rights education, transitional justice, and monitoring and investigation of violations.

I believe the committee has a lot of information about women's rights in Afghanistan. Up to 2004 this process went well. Women made some achievements. After 2004 we went backwards because of a lack of security and law as well as the impunity culture in Afghanistan. The Government had promised to implement transitional justice but ignored it. There was a Government obligation to implement all the human rights convention and introduce changes in law and order. Up to now this process has been very slow.

We also drafted some violence against women law and family law but this is only on paper and not implemented. For example, the Government promised to establish many schools and universities. While one day it might build a school, the following day the Taliban would come and burn the school. There is much corruption and bribery resulting in a lack of access to justice for women. In our society there is a very strong tradition of men dominating society and so women are victims. Women cannot get the rights that the law and constitution give them.

We need Ireland's support. We need the support of the international community. The Irish Government has very successful experience. Ireland had a conflict like Afghanistan. As Ireland has achieved a sustainable peace, we need its experience. We believe that peace cannot be sustainable without justice. Peace can only be sustained through justice and the support of human rights in Afghanistan. We now have a very important situation in Afghanistan because the Government and the international community want to go to reconciliation and negotiation with the enemy — the Taliban and some fundamentalists in Afghanistan. Next week we will have this peace jirga. The outcome of the peace jirga will be very important for women's rights. If the Taliban comes in, we will lose all our achievements. They will change our constitution and may force women to sit at home again. This is a very big challenge. We need Ireland's support to press our Government not to give away our women's rights, human rights, democracy and justice in Afghanistan to some enemy or the Taliban. If possible, we would like Ireland to send some human rights specialists to Afghanistan. We can learn from Ireland's experience.

Thank you, Dr. Sobhrang. At the outset Dr. Sobhrang indicated that her English was not good. If her English is that good, it is no wonder that she is so good in the human rights area. She has a great command of the English language and I gather she has a great command of the human rights area.

I welcome Dr. Sobhrang to our meeting. We honour her work which we appreciate greatly. It is very difficult work in the most difficult circumstances. I am delighted she is to be received by Front Line among others and I wish her well.

Some time ago one of the female members of parliament in Afghanistan made a presentation to the committee. She filled us in on the difficulties for women in Afghanistan, for example, the need to be accompanied to the market by a male, accompanied as she was by her five year old son. The human rights situation is very difficult. I thank Dr. Sobhrang for the detailed submission she gave members. It is good that her organisation is independent and is widely spread across regional and provincial offices. The facts speak for themselves. The extraordinarily high child mortality rate is of great concern. There is an issue of access of women to property rights. A large number of people are being held without charge in conditions of uncertainty. The large number of people who have used the commission's services is very impressive.

I have two concerns. The commission has not been given access to what are called the counter-terrorism detention centres. Dr. Sobhrang's request to human rights specialists should be responded to either through the Irish Human Rights Commission or through the Irish Centre for Human Rights, which has previously responded to requests for people. I must declare my interest in that I am an honorary adjunct professor at the Irish Centre for Human Rights.

In the negotiation and achievement of human rights, the arrival of a western system in Afghanistan is not necessarily a requirement. Human rights will need to take into account the indigenous experience and culture. People will do it in their own way. However, it should not be at the cost of fundamental rights. Running through Dr. Sobhrang's presentation in particular is the emphasis on the rights of women. As happens in other places, a disproportionate number of women are victims. I thank Dr. Sobhrang for her presentation and I wish her well.

I compliment Dr. Sobhrang on her presentation and on her remarkable English. None of us has a facility in her language. I also compliment her on the clear, simple and logical way in which she set out her presentation and the valuable written material we have been given. I hope she will make contact with the Irish Human Rights Commission, the chairman of which, Dr. Maurice Manning, is a former Member of this Parliament. He was leader of the Opposition in the Seanad.

Human rights groups are not always universally welcomed by governments in the West. In the prelude to the current economic storm, the Government set out to weaken every human rights organisation in this country. Not quite in the spectacular way this is happening in other countries.

—Particularly their independence.

Yes, particularly their independence, so I suggest that Dr. Sobhrang might have variable discussions with them.

We should emphasise the importance of the work done by people on the front line. It brings these important and significant issues to our attention. It gives us an opportunity to meet people of heroic stature, like Dr. Sobhrang. I wish her well tomorrow morning. I look forward with great interest to the opening of the envelope. I hope to be there myself, although I am not sure if I can be.

A number of aspects of Dr. Sobhrang's presentation interested me. I would like to refer to her comments about the position of women. A year or so ago, I listened to a report on the BBC World Service, which suggested that the intervention of President Karzai in a number of cases was not helpful. It is regrettable that he moderated sentences after political pressure was applied to his office. Issues like forced marriage, the rape of women and child marriage are significant and worrying.

Bonded labour is another such issue.

It is appropriate that Dr. Sobhrang spoke about many issues like gender equality. I hope her wonderful work in establishing a human rights commission, which is a courageous thing to do in these circumstances, will advance and progress. It is inevitable that a stage will come when the commission's remit is broadened — its understanding of gender issues will be amplified to take in the question of sexuality. On a global basis, human sexuality is much more varied than is currently allowed by the primitive views of all the religions, including western Christianity. There will be a need to take on board the circumstances of people who find themselves in a minority sexual orientation, particularly gay men and women. At present, I do not think it is politically realistic to address these issues in a major way. I want to put down a marker that in this country, we have developed to such a point, albeit belatedly. I hope the same thing will happen in Afghanistan.

I am particularly interested in Dr. Sobhrang's remarks about detention centres and counter-terrorists. That was the rather interesting way in which Deputy Higgins referred to it. I marked it here on my card. I have a particular view about the sources of terrorism — the various people and governments involved in distributing terror all over the world. This country has taken a particular interest in the use by the United States of rendition procedures, which is a euphemism for kidnap and torture. This country has had a marginal involvement in that, shamefully, by allowing Shannon Airport to be used for the refuelling of aeroplanes. A number of us complained bitterly about that, particularly Deputy Higgins and myself.

Is there any way we can support the efforts of Dr. Sobhrang and her commission to gain access to these loathsome facilities, in which young and innocent people who are innocent of any crimes have been deposited and tortured? We know this has happened. It is a shame and a disgrace to western values that this was allowed to happen. I assure Dr. Sobhrang that it does not have the support of the Irish people, however craven our Government was in the past. Perhaps there is some way in which we can apply diplomatic pressure to assist Dr. Sobhrang in this regard. We are prepared to express our revulsion at what has happened to human beings in Bagram and other places. Not all of those affected are citizens of Afghanistan — people from other countries have been deposited in such places too. I ask Dr. Sobhrang to indicate what we can do to help.

Dr. Sobhrang spoke about legislation that has been drafted but not yet implemented. Politicians all over the world are well aware of the syndrome whereby a government feels it has honoured its obligations simply by putting print on paper. The only thing that actually matters is implementation. Human rights are not worth a damn if they cannot be exercised, or if they are only theoretical. We are dealing with the circumstances of ordinary people on the ground who are facing difficult problems. If they cannot use this legislation to secure their human rights, we are all in trouble.

I apologise because I am going to have to leave in a few moments. This is a very busy parliamentary day. I am watching what is happening in the Seanad on the monitor. I hope Dr. Sobhrang will not consider it a rudeness if I have to leave shortly. I welcome her presence and her presentation here today.

I apologise for my late arrival, which was due to my involvement at a meeting in another part of this House. I support the work of Front Line. I congratulate Dr. Sobhrang on her nomination. I wish her well with that. It is important that global recognition is given to people who put themselves in harm's way as they fight for human rights. Their courage needs to be recognised. Global recognition can sometimes lead to people getting a bit more protection in their own countries than might otherwise have been the case. That is not always a reality, tragically, as we know from recent events.

I am sorry I was not here for Dr. Sobhrang's presentation. I have quickly looked through the documentation we have been furnished with. I intend to read it in a more relaxed way after the meeting. We will get a transcript of her presentation in due course. I will not delay the meeting. I want to wish Dr. Sobhrang well with her work.

If Senator Norris were still here, I am sure he and I would engage in one of our usual rows. We must ensure human rights are respected by everybody, including governmental bodies and insurgents. People too frequently seem to think it is appropriate to take a side and pillory the other side. Life is more complex than that. Senator Norris subjected us to his usual anti-American tirade. It only seems to disappear when he is having lunch in the American Embassy. I much prefer to say that when he is here than in his absence.

I was struck by the civilian casualty figures given by Dr. Sobhrang. The awfulness of conflict in any country is that there are always casualties, some of which are intended and some of which are accidental. If one dies by intention or by accident, one is dead. It does not matter if one is seriously injured by intention or by accident — one's life is destroyed or substantially impaired by the incident that has taken place. We must strive to avoid civilian casualties in every circumstance. Sadly, they always occur in areas of conflict. I say that to achieve a degree of balance after Senator Norris's contribution, from which one would think all the problems and ills of Afghanistan derive from the American presence there. We have revisited the Shannon Airport issue tediously yet again.

The civilian casualty figures we have been given are awful. Every person who dies is an individual human being whose life is extinguished. We should never try to regard anyone's life as having more or less value than anyone else's life. The figures are interesting. There have been 497 civilian casualties as a result of the actions of pro-government forces and 952 such casualties as a result of the actions of insurgents, including Taliban forces. I try to follow what is happening in Afghanistan as best I can from here. It is clear that the level of violence or atrocities on the part of the insurgency side, or the Taliban side, seems to increase, then reduce and then increase again. There have been some terrible bombings in the capital city, Kabul, in recent times. It is important that we are aware that where there are deaths of civilians, they are not simply deaths at the hands of outside forces who believe themselves to be trying to be of assistance in establishing some degree of democracy in Afghanistan, albeit a flawed democracy based on what occurred in the recent presidential elections.

If the Taliban were in power, it is doubtful Dr. Sobhrang would be with us today, would be allowed out of the country or would have any capacity to engage in the very important work in which she has engaged given what type of regime the Taliban imposed on Afghanistan in the past. It is important, when addressing these issues, that we are all aware of this. In Ireland, in particular, when we consider conflicts in other countries, we must always have at the front of our minds that there are local complexities that we should not simplify by media soundbite. I will not attempt to do that. I welcome Dr. Sobhrang, as my colleagues did, extend to her my best wishes with her work and wish her safety in the coming months and years.

Dr. Sobhrang may wish to respond to some of the issues that have been raised. She faces some great challenges. In highlighting the need to address matters relating to human rights, she referred to the need for Irish and international support. Dr. Sobhrang will have gathered from the contributions of my colleagues, which are a reflection of the views of the Irish Parliament, that she is pushing an open door in that regard.

Dr. Sobhrang correctly alluded to the sectarian difficulties and human rights issues experienced in certain parts of the community in Ireland. Having successfully addressed these problems, we would be pleased to share with Dr. Sobhrang the models on which our success was founded.

Dr. Soraya Rahim Sobhrang

It would be very useful for us to have this type of relationship and learn about Ireland's achievements because the human rights commission in Afghanistan is new. Many of the issues we have came from this country. We face many challenges. This meeting is very useful for us. We can put the information on our website and everyone in Afghanistan will be able to use it.

Human rights education and ways of combating human rights problems are aspects of our activity. Another issue of major importance in Afghanistan at this time is Security Council Resolution 1325 because the role of gender in the reconciliation is important. If the Irish Parliament supports us and pushes the Government of Afghanistan, Afghan women will never forget its support and assistance. The outcome of the peace jirga in Afghanistan is a matter of real concern for us.

On behalf of members of the sub-committee, I thank Dr. Sobhrang for attending and providing a most informative presentation. While progress has been made in Afghanistan in recent times, particularly in the adoption of a constitution and holding of elections, the position on the ground remains fragile, as Dr. Sobhrang indicated.

I commend the work Dr. Sobhrang is doing in difficult circumstances. It is clear that the path to peace and stability in Afghanistan requires much more than a military effort and response. As Dr. Sobhrang stated, true nation building requires the development of civil society, judicial, economic and social infrastructures and human rights protection for all citizens. The work Dr. Sobhrang is doing, as an advocate of women's rights and a human rights defender, is crucial for the development of a just and equitable society in Afghanistan, one which will have tangible benefits for those who have suffered most from years of conflict and conquest.

I congratulate Dr. Sobhrang on being nominated for the Front Line defenders award tomorrow. I hope some members will be able to attend the event and we wait with bated breath on the outcome. I also thank Mr. Jim Loughran for coming before us and congratulate Front Line on the work it does. The sub-committee wishes Front Line and Dr. Rahim Sobhrang continued success.

The sub-committee adjourned at 1.25 p.m. until 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, 24 June 2010.
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