Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 31 May 2022

Update on Current Situation in Ukraine: Discussion

Chairman

Apologies have been received from Deputy John Brady and Senator Joe O'Reilly. We return today to the unacceptable situation in Ukraine and we are pleased to get an update from Mr. Andriy Borysovych Yermak who is head of the Office of the President of Ukraine. He is welcome. I also extend a special welcome to H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko, ambassador of Ukraine to Ireland and her deputy, Mrs. Olena Shaloput. They are keen we receive an update on the current situation and on issues the Irish Government and Parliament should be engaged in. They are very welcome to our meeting. Mr. Yermak is joining us from Ukraine via Microsoft Teams. I understand he must be excused after about one hour so we will engage with him in the earlier part of our meeting, subject to interpretation. We are very pleased Mr. Yermak can join us.

The format of the meeting is that we will hear opening statements followed by a discussion with questions and answers with members of the committee. I ask members to be concise in their questions so that everyone can have an opportunity to participate.

Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make them in any way identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if any speaker makes statements that may be potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that any such direction is complied with.

For witnesses attending remotely from outside the parliamentary campus at Leinster House, there are some limitations as to parliamentary privilege and they might not benefit from the same level of immunity in respect of legal proceedings as a witness physically present in our committee room does.

I am very pleased to call on Mr. Yermak to make his opening statement.

Mr. Andriy Borysovych Yermak

Thank you, Chair. I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak to you today. It is three months now since we have been resisting one of the largest armies in the world. I am sure members are among those Europeans who do not need any explanation as to why we are doing this and what it is for. They simply know. If by any chance they do not, then they can ask Bono, the Edge, and U2. They played in the Ukrainian subway while above ground there was an air raid alarm. They saw everything for themselves. Bono said we are fighting not only for our freedom, but also for your freedom. He made a lot of sense when he said that. It is indeed true.

Today we are without exaggeration the shield for Europe. Ireland was one of the first countries to reach out to help Ukraine in the very first hours of the fully-fledged Russian aggression against Ukraine. We are grateful to the people and the Government of Ireland for their support, for the immediate cancellation of visas and for establishing the most favourable conditions for refugees from Ukraine. We are also grateful for the Republic of Ireland's consistent position throughout eight years of Russian aggression against Ukraine, in confirming, and in being consistent with, international norms and law and not acknowledging the annexation and illegal invasion of Ukrainian territories.

During these eight years, the world did not succeed in stopping Russia. The world did not manage to hold back Russia's imperial ambitions. Unpunishable and unpunished evil always becomes stronger.

Ukraine has not submitted to Russia. For more than three months now, Ukraine has resisted and the Kremlin cannot subdue us. As a result, it has started its destruction. It has started destroying the industrial and economic potential of our country. Regular missile and air strikes shell communities and settlements and critical infrastructure sites to make sure it achieves this goal. The looting of the occupied territories is large-scale and systemic in its character. This shows that looting has become the basis of the state policy of the Russian Federation in these territories. In the southern district, which is under the control of the Russian Federation, it has taken more than one hundred thousand tonnes of Ukrainian wheat while at the same time it is not providing the green corridors for the export of our agricultural products. This is obviously blackmail. This is outright blackmail of the international community by creating a shortage and deficit of food. Ukraine was the guarantor of food security and safety for 400 million people in the world before this.

This is the fourth type of blackmail that the Kremlin has used during its aggression against Ukraine. Previously, the European Union has been threatened with energy restrictions, a possible emergency at one of the captured nuclear power plants and with strikes using nuclear weapons. We do not know what else the Kremlin will do as it strives to gain superiority. We do not know for sure and this is why Russia needs to be stopped.

It is difficult for us now. Some 5 million people have fled our country because of the warfare and hostilities. The same number - 5 million people - are internally displaced in Ukraine. Thousands of peaceful citizens have died during the Russian aggression. The war has taken 35% of Ukrainian GDP. We have lost more than 200 plants and factories and our direct loses surmount $600 billion.

Despite this, Ukraine continues to defend itself. In the east and in the south, the heavy fighting is still going on. We have to win. Otherwise, Ukraine will simply disappear. Our nation and our country will continue to exist as long as we win. Our victory will depend on the amount of assistance provided by the international community to Ukraine. I mean any assistance - military, technical, political, financial and humanitarian. Extremely important support for Ukraine in pushing back against the aggression is the strengthening sanctions and continuing sanction pressure against Russia. Therefore, strengthening sanction pressure is extremely important.

I would like to highlight to members an initiative established by President Zelenskyy. I am honoured to spearhead a group of international experts and together with a former US ambassador to Russia, Michael McFaul, this group has already presented two documents, namely, the sanction strengthening plan and the sanction roadmap. These include very detailed recommendations and guidelines regarding the co-ordination and agreed steps regarding the sanctions.

I am glad to state that certain recommendations have already been implemented.

Ukraine welcomes the movement of the European Union towards the introduction of the sixth sanction package. The key element in this sixth package is a full embargo on Russian oil. This has to be done as soon as possible because energy and energy resources contribute the lion's share of the revenues of the Russian budget. Therefore, by purchasing oil, Europe is funding the Russian military machine. The European Union has responded to the Russian aggression by gradually increasing the sanctions and the supplies of weapons to Ukraine. This is taking too long and is inefficient. We are proposing to change the approach. We should do something the Russians are not expecting us to do. We should introduce a massive, large-scale sanction blow while at the same time increase as much as possible the supplies of heavy weaponry to the Ukrainian military. This will not only help rescue and save thousands of lives, but it will also allow us to avoid the lengthy and long-term war that Russia is already getting ready for. We are asking members to send this message and to communicate to partners in the European Parliament how important such a step would be. We would also be grateful for political and any other support and assistance and for receiving weapons that Ukraine needs so badly.

Of not least importance is the continuation of the sanction pressure on Russia. This is one of the safeguards against further attempts of aggression against Ukraine and will also provide an additional mechanism of security guarantees. The working group for this purpose, which I am spearheading with the former Secretary General of NATO, Anders Rasmussen, is already working on developing possible ways of putting together such mechanisms. We would be very happy to see representatives of Ireland in that group. Ireland is a country with a very rich experience of peacekeeping operations.

I would like to use this opportunity to congratulate Ireland on beginning its presidency of the Committee of Ministers in the Council of Europe. I would also like to propose including on the committee's agenda the question of member states' compliance with their commitments to, and obligations as regards, a common sanction policy as well investigation of the war crimes of the Russian military.

It is not an exaggeration to say that Ireland is a technological and financial hub of Europe. Sometimes multinational corporations try to do their business as usual as long as they can. As regards Russia, however, business as usual in this case is simply facilitating the aggression. It does not matter what the business is about. Moscow has continually demonstrated its ability to use the elements of hybrid war even in its co-operation in the humanitarian area. We should not forget that this always ends with the provoking civil and citizen conflicts, undercover operations and political killings.

When we ask for support; we are not talking about charity. This is an investment. This is an investment in a common European security, in a common European future. For these reasons, among others, Ukraine is considering prospective membership of the European Union. Ukraine has paid a big price for its choice.

Ukraine has paid a big price for its choice and continues to pay for it. Every vote in favour of Ukraine and the support counts. That is why I would like to ask all those present today to do whatever it takes to help Ukraine implement its European perspective as soon as possible.

We hear continually that one of the barriers to Ukraine joining the EU is corruption. We have to be honest. In terms of the European Union, the corruption, which is nourished by Russia, really contributed and became a stumbling stone to this question. We have to put an end to it. We were enraptured by what Irish fishermen did when they protected Ireland's exclusive economic zone from the drills of the Russian fleet. This was a witty and beautiful step and I am sure that this famous talent of the Irish people will help Ukrainians a lot as well.

Today and at the end of the war we will rebuild our green country. I bet Johnny Cash could find "Forty Shades of Green" in Ukraine.

Our government has already been working to put the U-24 recovery plan in place. Ukraine's recovery is based on two main principles: regional and parametric. The regional approach or principle is about partners helping Ukraine in rebuilding and reviving a certain region, city or community. A parametric approach or principle is about rebuilding according to the contemporary parameters and standards of the European Union. We suggest and propose to Ireland that it takes part in this programme. Following on from the invitation of President Zelenskyy, I would like to also invite Ireland to help us in building and revitalising some of this.

We have a broad spectrum of possible areas of co-operation starting with agriculture, the pharmaceutical industry, the food sector, machine building, services - you name it. I would like to emphasise the IT sector, in particular. Even before the war, Ukraine introduced a ground-breaking and a revolutionary in nature taxation regime, which is called Diia City. It is still very efficient and operational even in the current circumstances.

Our future security will depend among other things on the ability to adapt and introduce new technology such as artificial intelligence and automatic management cyber protection. Ukraine could successfully co-operate with Ireland as it is a highly technological country in these particular areas. As is said in Ireland, success is about getting up one time more than you fall down. This is what we need to do. Please help us to do so. I am sure members will see for themselves that Ukraine will be grateful and will pay back in kindness. I thank members very much for their attention. We are ready to answer questions.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Yermak. That was a very thought-provoking address and hopefully for us an action-provoking address. I acknowledge the address some weeks ago of President Zelenskyy. He had a very strong message for us in Ireland and we were very grateful that he took the time to address our Parliament. Similarly, I am grateful to you, the head of his office and chief of staff, for joining us in our parliamentary committee.

I said to members that we have something of a challenge because you have about 15 or 20 minutes. I will ask the ambassador, H.E. Ms Gerasko, to wait for a moment to allow for some direct questions to you. We will resume with an update on the situation in Ireland with the ambassador and Mrs. Shaloput. I would say to the members that we do not have time for speeches or observations. I ask them to put direct questions to you, Mr. Yermak. I am going to start with Deputy Cowen.

I would say to you, Mr. Yermak, that in spite of all the apparent insurmountable challenges you face that you still had time to mix seriousness with humour. You managed to do something nobody else has ever done, which is to invoke the name of Johnny Cash at our committee. Can I say in response to your reference to Johnny Cash that this committee "will walk the line" with you by declaring our support and our loyalty in the same way the message was portrayed in the most famous of Johnny Cash songs?

I thank you for being with us.

I will go straight to questions and will start with Deputy Cowen, Senator Ó Donnghaile and Deputy Berry. We will take three or four questions together. I would ask you, Mr. Yermak, to respond before departing.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I thank Mr. Yermak for the address. We are very appreciative of him for making himself available along with the ambassador and the representatives here today. We acknowledge and appreciate the grave difficulties his country and its people are facing in the form of Russia's illegal and barbaric act, namely, the invasion. As alluded to by the Chair, we are delighted that our people, our country and our Government are in a position to ensure we can offer a safe haven for Ukrainian refugees and to contribute handsomely to the European peace fund. Our support for Ukrainian accession to the EU is steadfast, and so much so that our Taoiseach is to the fore in seeking to ensure it is done in a timely fashion rather than having to go through the same criteria previous applicants have had to go through.

We note Mr. Yermak's comments in relation to the request for Europe to continue and even increase the pace of sanctions - economic and otherwise - against Russia. We acknowledge and appreciate that request, irrespective of the impact it could have on our own economy. It is a small price for us to pay to support the Ukrainian people and its country and government.

My only question might be seen as a very simplistic question but comes as a result of the previous comment in relation to sanctions. People ask whether Ukraine can defeat or repel the Russians. It obviously can not be done alone. Thankfully, the wider world order is behind Ukrainian defence. Ukraine may be dependent on the sanction as the best weapon to see success, or to see this illegal and barbaric invasion off. Does Mr. Yermak think the Russian Government or even its media will ever change its imperialist mindset which seems to have engulfed the regime in recent times?

Chairman

We will ask a number of questions before going back to Mr. Yermak.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

I thank Mr. Yermak. I am conscious of the Chair's advice to keep things succinct but I want to assure our visitors of our continued solidarity and support for the people of Ukraine. There have been a number of references to Europe and what we could be doing at an EU level. I would like to get the view around Ireland's position on the UN Security Council and how we may utilise that position. We have a very proud record of peacekeeping around the world but we also have a very proud record and experience of peace building. Whether it is in terms of peace building negotiations and, indeed, humanitarian support at a UN level, I would like to hear the views on what we could encourage people to do.

Chairman

I thank the Senator.

Deputy Gary Gannon

The express the full solidarity of the committee and the people of Ireland with Mr. Yermak and the people of Ukraine. I want to ask about the internally displaced people within Ukraine. What is their experience? Is there anything we can do in terms of providing support or provisions to help those who have been internally displaced and are still in Ukraine at this moment?

Chairman

We can now revert to you, Mr. Yermak, to answer the questions in the order in which you feel appropriate.

Mr. Andriy Borysovych Yermak

I have very little time and, therefore, will be succinct. To answer the first question, if Ukraine receives all the weapons that we have requested and if there is a powerful sanction blow and policies introduced against Russia, we will succeed and we shall win. This will not just be a Ukrainian victory. This will be the victory of all our partners and allies as well.

Regarding the question as to whether the Russian Federation can change, we all have to understand that Russia does not understand and is not capable of hearing and listening to the language of dialogue. Instead, what it understands and what it does is to use the language of power and blackmail. Historically, it has come to do so. Of course, if the situation changes and there is victory and the democratic will prevails, then after a certain number of years, maybe we would see some change in the Russian Federation. This will only happen if the things I have just mentioned materialise, namely, the fully fledged weaponry and military support for Ukraine, sanctions and the consolidated position of the whole democratic world.

Regarding the question pertaining to Ireland's possible support in peacekeeping and peace building, Ireland is indeed famous for this particular policy and that support would be extremely important for Ukraine these days. I will now explain what these steps could look like.

First of all, in the humanitarian area, Russia has practically blocked the procedure of exchanging people. I mean people who were arrested in the occupied territory and, of course, people from Azovstal in Mariupol. This procedure is not happening and possible mediation through the United Nations and through other organisations will be very important and much appreciated.

Thousands of Ukrainian children were illegally deported to Russia or to the occupied territories. On the initiative of the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, we have now created a special group which has started working very hard to find these children and to prevent this illegal procedure. Just a couple of days ago, Putin signed a special law stating how Russians can adopt Ukrainian children in an absolutely illegal way. It is a big problem for us and now the President has given a very serious signal to the Government and to all Ukrainian institutes to work hard in this direction. We would appreciate if Ireland could participate in this job.

The programme of food security is of course very important. Russia has blocked practically all Ukrainian ports in the Sea of Azov and the Black Sea. Now we are working with the United Nations, the United States and Turkey on how to unblock these ports and how to create humanitarian corridors and opportunities to export our harvest, the grains and other agricultural products. As I said in my statement, Ukraine is a big player in the food market. This is the biggest problem. We are currently working with many of our partners, including Mr. Guterres, but it is all still on the negotiation table. I think Ireland's voice and position will be very important.

I think we still have time and the committee will have the opportunity to ask more questions. The last question involved the people who have had to leave their city and their home places to travel but who are still in the territory of Ukraine. We have a special programme to support these people. They are mostly concentrated in the west of Ukraine. We would be very appreciative of any programmes of humanitarian help for these people. Our ministry of infrastructure is now looking at a special quick-build house programme where people could stay before they get the opportunity to return. We can connect our minister who carries out work with this group of the people with the Irish Government and they can communicate directly. In general, we would be appreciative of any humanitarian help because millions of our people are affected. The stress on our economy and the situation of our economy during these hundred days of the war means it is very difficult. Thank you.

Chairman

We have reached the time at which it was indicated that Mr. Yermak wished to depart. Unless there are other pressing issues, I will express my appreciation and thanks on behalf of the committee to Mr. Yermak for his address, his presence and his very direct message to the Irish Parliament. I thank you, Mr. Yermak, for being with us and we wish you all the best in your very challenging and problematic role. We may have an opportunity for further engagement as matters progress.

Mr. Andriy Borysovych Yermak

Thank you very much.

I thank the committee for its attention, support and help. I thank all the people of Ireland very much. We know they are our friends and we will never forget how they are supporting us and how they are helping in this terrible war and in this difficult time for my county.

Chairman

Thank you.

It gives me great pleasure to move to our in-person engagement. As always, this committee welcomes the presence of H.E. Ms Gerasko and her deputy chief, Mrs. Shaloput. Would you like to address us by making a brief opening address? We can then take up some of the issues as already discussed. Our members may have further questions on the experience of Ukrainian citizens in Ireland or on any aspect of the current conflict that you wish to bring to the attention of the committee.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko

Thank you so much. I did not prepare a statement because our main speaker was the chief of the President's office. As the committee knows, almost 33,000 Ukrainians have arrived in Ireland. It is a huge number for your country.

I would like to share the results of a survey with the committee. One of the Ukrainian organisations in Ireland has conducted the first big survey among Ukrainians who arrived in Ireland after 24 February. This organisation received 2,191 answers from people in 26 counties in just one week. This accounts for 6.6% of the newly arrived Ukrainian population in Ireland. First, 92% of Ukrainians are very grateful to Ireland while another 8% are just grateful for the support and help and for everything. Some 16% of Ukrainians and their children do not have a home to return to because it has been either damaged or destroyed. There is active fighting going on in the home cities of 43% of the Ukrainians in Ireland. Some 73% of newly arrived Ukrainians are willing to actively contribute to the economy. They are either already working or are actively looking for a job. Some 24% have found a job but unfortunately only one in five of these jobs matches their professional qualifications. One of the main obstacles in this regard is a knowledge of English at a working level. Finding long-term accommodation, access to healthcare, transportation and access to necessary infrastructure are among the most painful subjects in the survey. Some 21.6% of the respondents do not have a pharmacy within walking distance while some 30% do not have a supermarket.

One of the main problems is long-term accommodation because most of the Ukrainians are living in hotels right now. It is a problem for them. They move from one hotel to another one. It is not a problem for adults but it is a problem for the children because they have to change schools often. It is a bit traumatic for children. Almost 100% of Ukrainians who have arrived in Ireland are really very happy and are very grateful to the country and to the Irish people for the support, help and for everything.

Chairman

I understand that the survey to which you refer is a very recent one undertaken by Ukrainian Action. The members of the committee are at something of a disadvantage because we have not seen the data. Having regard to what you have said, we acknowledge your kind words in terms of the very high degree of satisfaction. We welcome that. I am sure there are other aspects of the survey which we could have a look at in terms of our engagement with agencies and with Government. If possible,could the data be shared at an early stage with the committee members? We would have an opportunity then to reflect on it and perhaps be in a position to respond. We will be meeting the Minister for Foreign Affairs in July but I am sure there are other issues for other Departments that we will be very keen to take up on your behalf should the results of the survey warrant such an intervention. It seems that in the areas of schools, healthcare, jobs and childcare the situation is somewhat evolving.

Let us not pretend there are not challenges. There are challenges and we hope the circumstances of these challenges would be resolved smoothly. I note that in some communities outside of Dublin, in particular, there has been a very strong community response. Deputy Stanton is with us and, as a former Minister of State in the Department of Justice, he pioneered the community support response in respect of previous instances of migration challenges. Deputy Stanton may have a comment to make to H.E. Ms Gerasko. I will then take a question, observation or comment from Senator Ó Donnghaile.

Deputy David Stanton

I welcome the ambassador and acknowledge her words in respect of the support communities are providing across the country. People are working hard and there is a lot going on in my area. Hubs have been set up where people from Ukraine can collect clothes and other essentials they may not be in a position to purchase. These were donated by local people and volunteers man these particular hubs. They have proved to be very effective.

I am aware of some Ukrainians who have taken jobs here.

The fact we have Ukrainian children in schools has meant schools can retain teachers, especially in some rural areas where numbers were falling.

I have a question for the ambassador. Ukraine is a huge country and there is awful, vicious fighting going on and terrible atrocities in the east and in the south. We condemn them out of hand. Could the ambassador tell us what the situation is in the centre and in the west of the country? I know some Ukrainian people are considering returning to the centre and to the west around Lviv and cities like that. Is it safe for them to do so? What would the ambassador's advice be to people who have come here but are not sure as to whether it is safe to return? It is mainly women and children who have come here. Their husbands, parents and grandparents are still back in Ukraine. Could the ambassador give us some advice in respect of that? If people want to go back, how it would be done? What supports can the embassy provide and what can be done to assist people who want to go back to visit family for a temporary period and then return here?

Chairman

I will take a number of questions before the ambassador replies.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

I thank the ambassador and her office for all the work they are doing. She has a huge and significant piece of work ahead of her in terms of the mechanics of supporting our new Ukrainian community who are settling here. There are huge mechanical issues around housing, health provision and education, which need to be dealt with in the short term. The issue I would like to put to the ambassador is probably more of a medium-to-long-term one but I want to flag it with her to see if there is anything we can work on moving forward. It will particularly impact on Ukrainian people who make their homes in Border communities. The ambassador may be aware that legislation has passed in the British Parliament requiring non-Irish and non-British citizens to avail of a travel visa if they want to travel into our Six Counties in the North because they are unfortunately entering a jurisdiction that has been taken out of the EU. Has the ambassador had any engagement with her counterpart in the UK or any engagement with the Executive in the North of Ireland to raise this issue in the medium and long term? We want people coming to Ireland to be able to enjoy and to avail of all of Ireland but, in particular, we want Ukrainian people who may settle in Border communities to live in the same way that their neighbours live. They may need to do their shopping in the North. They may need to send their kids to school in the North. I appreciate it is a very bespoke question. While it may not be the main issue facing the ambassador's community now, it could become an issue for a significant number of Ukrainian people as they settle in the medium and long term.

I appreciate the ambassador may not be across the detail of all of that just yet. It is perhaps something we can engage on going forward. I would like work to be done with colleagues in the North of Ireland and for the ambassador's colleague, the ambassador in London, to be aware of the impact this legislation could have on Ukrainian people coming to Ireland.

Chairman

The Senator will be aware that engagement with the Executive is something of a challenge for all of us-----

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

Of course.

Chairman

-----at this point in time. I am not sure if it is a challenge that has been surmounted by H.E. Ms Gerasko. If it has been, fair play to her because she will have done something we cannot do in terms of engagement with the Northern Ireland Executive.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

An important point has been made there by Senator Ó Donnghaile and I would be interested in hearing the ambassador's response. I know the ambassador and her colleague have been to County Cavan and have seen how close it is to the Border. We have quite a few Ukrainian people located or relocated to Cavan and they are very welcome.

In the last week or so, there have been reports of some difficulties particularly within residential settings where people with Ukrainian citizenship and passports who left there many years ago to live in Russia are now here as refugees. There seems to be some difficulties in some of those centres among refugees who left Ukraine at the start of the war and people with Ukrainian passports and Ukrainian citizenship who left Russia. Could the ambassador elaborate a little bit on that? What procedures have been put in place to try to ensure this is rectified as soon as possible? It is something we should be taking up as well but I am interested to hear her point of view. Has she received many complaints and how is that being dealt with?

On the situation in Ukraine regarding medical supplies, pharmaceutical supplies, medicines, etc., I know the ambassador requested that this Government would do its best to supply medical equipment, in particular. What is the situation in relation to that?

Deputy Cathal Berry

I have a couple of brief questions. The ambassador and her team are most welcome again. I thank her for updating us on that very important survey. It is great hear some very positive findings from it. As the Chair said, it would be great get a copy of the documentation just from an evidence based point of view.

My first question is on the number of displaced Ukrainians in Ireland at the moment. The number seems to have stabilised around 33,000. I know it is very difficult to forecast but does the embassador think it is likely that this number will continue to stabilise or does she see a continuing flow from both Ukraine and from the wider European Union into Ireland? Is 33,000 a number we can go firm on to some extent?

I am familiar with international reports that a number of days ago Lithuania, through a crowdfunding mechanism, raised US$5.4 million to buy a drone to assist the Ukrainian armed forces, and I am conscious of Mr. Yermak's appeal for defence and protective weapons to win the conflict in Ukraine. Could that same model work in Ireland? The ambassador is aware of my position in favour of giving projective and defensive weapons but I recognise the Irish Government does not want to do this at this time. A large number of people have contacted me directly saying they would like to make a contribution even if the State is unwilling to do so at the moment. Does the ambassador think a similar crowdfunding mechanism could be used in Ireland to provide similar technology to the Ukrainian armed forces? Is this something we should consider exploring?

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko

I will answer the first question regarding the situation in the west of Ukraine and what the embassy is doing. There is no safe place in Ukraine. Russia has dropped bombs many times in places not far from Lviv, near the Hungarian border and in Ivano-Frankivsk. It has attacked many objects of infrastructure in the western part of Ukraine. Most of our Ukrainian internally displaced people have moved to central and western parts of Ukraine. It is a challenge for the western parts of Ukraine because they are less populated and the people here face challenges with accommodation.

It is safer there than in the north or the east.

We receive a huge number of letters, calls and visits from our Ukrainian citizens in the embassy, so our consul literally works 24-7. Our citizens need consular assistance in order to obtain a new passport, to get translations or other documents, etc. We provide consultations in order to better explain the Irish rules to our Ukrainians. We do everything.

I have not had any engagement with the UK. I do not know the situation with regard to the movement of Ukrainian displaced people or refugees. Due to privacy law, it is hard to get the number of Ukrainians living in County Kerry or in other counties. We do not have any information on how many people have moved illegally to Northern Ireland. My colleague, the Ukrainian ambassador in the UK, does not have the number. We are not engaged in this process.

I am very well informed about the situation regarding tension between some of our Ukrainian citizens. I know about some incidents in counties Cavan, Kerry and Dublin. I am in contact with the representative of the Department of Justice and we discuss on a case-by-case basis how our Ukrainian nationals can get protection here if they travel from Russia or other non-EU countries and not from Ukraine. We have some examples of even sexual abuse and of many other situations. Unfortunately, our women are sometimes fearful of calling the Garda. There is, however, a small number of such incidents.

With regard to medical supplies, we need medicine and medical kits. The ministry for health in Ukraine updates a list weekly of what we need in order to save the lives of our civilians and our military.

With regard to Deputy Berry's question, I know about the fundraising in Lithuania where $5 million was collected to buy a Bayraktar. It was amazing. As far as I know, Irish legislation permits you to collect money for humanitarian aid if you have a charity account. The question is whether a humanitarian aid or not. I do not know.

Chairman

Feel free to intervene, Mrs. Shaloput.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko

I have probably missed something.

Deputy Cathal Berry

My question was on the 33,000 displaced Ukrainians here at the moment. Sorry, 30,000 are displaced and 3,000 were already here.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko

Yes. According to our Ukrainian statistics, the number of Ukrainians returning home exceeds the number leaving. It has plateaued now. This number has more or less stabilised. Everything depends on the situation in Ukraine. When the Ukrainian military pushed back the Russian troops, people started returning home. If the situation deteriorates, more people will flee the country.

Chairman

Thank you, ambassador. Shortly after the start of the unlawful invasion, on Saturday, 26 February, you emailed members of the committee and other Members of the Houses being the friends of Ukraine. You posed a series of 21 issues you would like addressed by the Irish Parliament. I am not going to deal with them now but could you update the committee on these 21 issues? Some have been implemented and more have been partly implemented. You might be in a position to advise us on the ones that are still outstanding. In that letter, you outlined particular sanctions of an economic and a political nature that Ireland could engage in on the basis of our relationship with certain Russian business or entities. If your office has time, I would be grateful if over the next week or so you revisited the questions and let us know of progress. We are very keen to ensure that issues posed by you some months ago were addressed by the Irish authorities in a manner we hope you find acceptable.

The only other issue I would like to raise with you while you are here - it was mentioned by Mr. Yermak - is in respect of the current blockade and the fact that convoys of ships and boats with vital food are unable to access the Black Sea.

Mr. Yermak mentioned that some western and NATO assistance would be required. Senator Ó Donnghaile referred to Ireland's membership of the United Nations Security Council earlier. Is there a role for Ireland or any way we might assist to ensure appropriate naval convoys are assembled to ensure protection for ships leaving Ukraine with vital food and grain? Are there any alternative routes that might be sought? Road and rail were certainly mentioned but I am not sure how feasible they would be having regard to the quantities involved.

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko

Thank you so much, Chair. Next week we will revise all those questions and will let you know what the situation is. With regard to the situation in the Black Sea, Russia has unfortunately taken control of the Kerch Strait and the Sea of Azov, and the port of Mariupol has been destroyed. Russia's war against Ukraine is a threat to global food security. According to my data, 22 million tones of food products remain locked in Ukraine. Russia has rejected Ukraine's proposal to establish humanitarian corridors to export Ukrainian grain. As Mr. Yermak mentioned, Russia is blackmailing the world by using the threat of hunger as a weapon. Russia has mined in the Black Sea and it is impossible now to get coal to our ports. Unfortunately, this is the situation. We would be very grateful to Ireland for its support and assistance in resolving this situation. As Mr. Yermak mentioned, Ireland has very good experience of peaceful settlement, negotiation and peace talks. We are sure your experience and your efforts will be very valuable to Ukraine.

Chairman

Unless there are other pressing issues, I am going to bring matters to conclusion. I acknowledge again the importance of your presence, ambassador, and indeed the importance of your work in Ireland for and on behalf of your people at this time of great difficulty and challenge. We will undoubtedly have a further opportunity of engaging with you. You have raised a number of issues that will require some follow up and consequent action on our part and you are going to share the information from the survey.

I acknowledge again the presence earlier of Mr. Yermak, the head of the Office of the President of Ukraine. He also posed a number of important questions that require our attention. We will undoubtedly be reverting to you, ambassador, later in the summer. We assure you that you are always welcome at this committee.

I announce with regret that your deputy, Mrs. Olena Shaloput, is leaving Ireland after a number of years-----

H.E. Ms Larysa Gerasko

Today is her last day at the embassy.

Mrs. Olena Shaloput

My last experience.

Chairman

-----on the last day of May. On behalf of the members of this committee, I acknowledge the importance of your presence here over a number of years. You have been an outstanding ambassador for your country, Mrs. Shaloput, but I suppose the diplomatic regulatory framework only allows me to use the word "ambassador" with a small "a". You have certainly carried out your work, literally carrying the flag of your country, over the past number of years in very difficult, trying and stressful circumstances. You have done so with a huge level of expertise. I thank you for your engagement with this committee, with this Parliament and with the Irish people. We wish you every success in future endeavours for and on behalf of your country. I understand you are going back to headquarters in Kyiv and we wish you and your family every health and happiness in that regard. You have made an outstanding contribution to your country's affairs in Ireland and we thank you for that.

With that, I will bring matters to a conclusion and remind members that we are proceeding into private session, which will not take too long.

Mrs. Olena Shaloput

Thank you, Chair, Deputies and Senators. It was my honour to be in Ireland and I was really proud to meet so many friends and colleagues here. I will miss Ireland with all my heart. I am leaving Ireland but I am not leaving diplomacy, so who knows where and when we will meet again. I hope we will. I would be delighted to welcome you to peaceful Kyiv. I will probably spend my next vacation in Ireland. Thank you for everything.

Chairman

Thank you.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.58 p.m. and adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 3.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 14 June 2022.