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Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Apr 2013

Overseas Development Issues: Discussion with Centre for Global Development and GOAL

We will commence because we have a very heavy agenda for the afternoon. We will have two sessions. I remind members, witnesses and those in the public Gallery to ensure their mobile phones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as they can cause interference, even in silent mode, with the recording equipment in the committee rooms. The first item on today's agenda is a discussion with representatives of the Centre for Global Development at UCC about the work of their organisation. On behalf of the committee, I would like to welcome them.

This meeting has resulted from an invitation I received to launch a book, What in the World?, which was written by Mr. Peadar King, who attended a meeting of the joint committee some time ago. When I met representatives of the Centre for Global Development on foot of that event, I thought they had a very good story to tell about the work they do in Cork in the course of their development and aid studies. I felt it would be appropriate to invite them to come before the committee to talk about the contribution they make and the courses they offer. We are delighted to have a strong team of five members of the centre in attendance: Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick, who is the director of the centre and the head of UCC's college of science, engineering and food science; Dr. Edward Lahiff of UCC's college of business and law; Dr. Simon Woodworth of the health information systems research centre and the college of business and law at UCC; Dr. Paul Conway, who is an associate director of Centre for Global Development; and Professor Tony Ryan of the UCC college of medicine and health. We are delighted that such a strong team has come from UCC to this meeting of the joint committee. There is a good turnout of members in attendance this afternoon.

The Centre for Global Development is the vehicle for UCC's global development strategy. It allows UCC to achieve its ambition to seek a global context for its activities. The centre also provides a focus for shared interest, experience and expertise in global development in a collaborative interdisciplinary environment. It enables those involved to stimulate new initiatives in teaching, learning, research and community engagement. In fact, many of those who work in the development are graduates of the relevant course at UCC. I know that many of those who work for Irish Aid came through the UCC system. We are pleased to have representatives of UCC with us. As they know, we work with Irish Aid as an integral part of the work we do in dealing with development. It is appropriate for us to see what our universities are doing to train some students in this area.

Before I invite the witnesses to make their presentation, I would like to advise them that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of utterances at this committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease making remarks on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. They are directed that only comments and evidence in relation to the subject matter of this meeting are to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I know that each of the witnesses wants to make a contribution this afternoon. I call Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick, who is the director of the Centre for Global Development in UCC and the head of that university's college of science, engineering and food science, to address the committee. I welcome all the witnesses again.

Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick

It is a great pleasure to be here. I thank the Chairman for facilitating this meeting. We are pleased to have an opportunity to engage with the joint committee. Mr. Groves has given us some strict instructions to the effect that we should keep our opening remarks short. We will do that. I will make some introductory remarks about the centre and each of us will make a brief contribution to outline our specific areas of interest. The Centre for Global Development was established on foot of the first strategic plan for UCC, which covered the period from 2008 to 2012. The centre is explicitly recognised in the most recent strategic plan, which has just been published and covers the period from 2013 to 2017, as part of UCC's strategy for the next five years and beyond. Over 110 academic and non-academic staff of the university are members of the Centre for Global Development. They come from all four of UCC's colleges - arts and humanities, business and law, medicine and health, and science, engineering and food science. I am the head of the last of those colleges.

It is important to note that the Centre for Global Development captures a wide range of activity that is already going on. It holds within it the potential to generate new interactions and stimulate new perspectives. As the Chairman mentioned, the core vision of the centre as set out in the strategic plan is to seek a "global context" for everything we do in UCC. We are facing some of the challenges of the 21st century, including food production and distribution, health care, disease eradication, energy supply, climate change and environmental protection and the effects of technological change in developing countries. We also have expertise in some of the areas that arise on the non-scientific side, including social integration, democratic governance, human rights and education. We regard them as part of what we do. All of our activity can be summarised in the phrase "sustainable global development".

We have a particular focus on things that might not be at the front line of traditional international development. Irish aid policy has a particular focus on the alleviation of hunger. As we are concerned with the development of infrastructure in developing countries, we focus on areas like energy, transport and information and communications technology. The development of sustainable societies depends on such things and on economic development. We are working in the context of the Government's strategy of developing a range of further relationships with developing countries. For that reason, we are very conscious of the Africa strategy. We are integrated into the national agenda. I am a member of the Irish Aid expert advisory group. The UCC Centre for Global Development was integrally involved in providing a response to the review of the White Paper. I understand that went to the Cabinet yesterday and will be published next week. We are delighted with that. I will not delay the committee further. We look forward to engaging with the committee. We would like that engagement to be as conversational as possible. Each of my colleagues will say a brief word about their particular areas of interest.

Dr. Edward Lahiff

We appreciate the opportunity to attend this meeting. I will try to keep my contribution brief. I am closely involved with Agridiet, which is a research project that started recently. It is funded as part of the strategic partnership between Irish Aid and the higher education sector. A consortium of eight universities, including UCD, some UK universities and four African universities, is looking at the links between small-scale farming and the nutritional status of women and children within farming households in Ethiopia and Tanzania. This critical issue for international development was mentioned by President Higgins at the launch of a conference last week. It was also mentioned by our Minister when he met the World Bank in Washington recently. The links between nutrition and agriculture are really emerging as critical. We are keen to be part of that.

I would like to mention some of our teaching activities. As the Chairman said, they lay the foundation for our other activities. For example, we have an undergraduate programme in international development and food policy. It is the only undergraduate programme of its sort in the country. Many of those who work in non-governmental organisations, Irish Aid and other organisations have come through that programme. A six-month overseas placement where our students spend six months with a development agency - often a national one or a non-governmental organisation with Irish links - is a key part of that. These placements have been generously supported by Irish Aid over the years. We think it is very important to sustain this programme.

In the last five years, we have run a master's degree programme jointly with two Ethiopian universities. It has been based in Ethiopia and funded by the Irish Embassy in Ethiopia and the World Bank. On the strength of that emerging relationship with those universities, we have registered ten junior lecturers from Ethiopian universities for PhD study in UCC. We expect to see those graduations from this year onwards. We anticipate that we will offer a new, rather specialised, master's degree in food and nutrition security from next year. It will be aimed very much as mid-level, mid-career specialists who work in this area internationally. We consider that this area is under-served by academic courses.

Throughout of all of this, our focus is on the key global issues of hunger, poverty, human rights and environmental change. Our geographical focus, in line with Irish Aid policy, is on the poorest countries in the world, which are largely concentrated in sub-Saharan Africa. That is a flavour of what we do. I will be pleased to answer any questions members may have.

Mr. Simon Woodworth

I will speak briefly on our Supporting LIFE project, which is supported by the European Seventh Framework programme, FP7. Supporting LIFE will start on Wednesday next, 1 May. Its purpose is to accelerate and improve the diagnosis and treatment of children between the ages of two months and five years in northern Malawi. One of the problems faced by Malawi, whose population is largely rural, is that many children live in isolated areas which may be number of hours' or possibly days' walk from a clinic or other facility providing medical intervention. As a result, in cases of commonly treatable medical conditions such as pneumonia, malaria, meningitis and diarrhoea, it frequently occurs that by the time the child arrives at the clinic for treatment, he or she will have reached a late stage in the illness. This makes it difficult if not impossible to treat the child and the result is an increase in child mortality.

We propose to implement the World Health Organization's integrated management of childhood illness, IMCI, protocol as a mobile telephone app. While the protocol is very good, it is paper-based and the document looks like a telephone directory. Although often used in hospitals and clinics in Malawi, the IMCI protocol is cumbersome in paper form and is, therefore, ideally suited to be recoded as a mobile app. Members may be surprised to learn that Malawi has a well-developed mobile telephone network and people who do not have shoes often have mobile telephones. The mobile telephone network is growing rapidly on the basis of advanced technology. Malawi already has 3.5G, 3.75G and 4G networks and all the other Gs are coming very quickly. We want to exploit this technology and give the rural health surveillance attendants, who are government-trained, the ability to use the mobile phone app to rapidly diagnose conditions in children aged between two months and five years and get them to treatment quickly. Another benefit of the initiative is that we can also ensure adherence to the WHO protocol and monitor outbreaks of disease in remote areas. Under the current paper-based system, delays of between one and three months in disease reporting occur in rural parts of Malawi, which means that by the time the Ministry of Health hears about an outbreak, it is often too late to do anything practical. We can also use the mobile apps as an educational aid for the health surveillance assistants.

The project kicks off next week. One of the issues we want to deal with is sustainability. We have been fortunate to receive a small structural grant from University College Cork to build a physical research centre at the University of Mzuzu in northern Malawi. We will use this centre as a base for the project and a mechanism for exploring other projects, including capacity-building in education in the university's nursing and midwifery and ICT departments. We are working with the Malawian Ministry of Health to build up decision support systems to enhance its ability to formulate health policy and deal with disease outbreaks.

Dr. Paul Conway

I thank members for the invitation to appear before the joint committee. A range of social science and education projects is documented in the Centre for Global Development annual report, which has been circulated to members. I propose to focus on a teaching and teacher education project. Funded by Irish Aid under the programme for strategic co-operation, the project is one of four research projects undertaken through a network of Irish colleges North and South of the Border, with headquarters at Mary Immaculate College. The research development study involved four educational researchers from Irish universities working on capacity-building with eight colleagues from Kyambogo and Makerere universities, both of which are located in Kampala, Uganda, in the study of the teaching of mathematics and science in Ugandan secondary schools. The study was undertaken between 2009 and 2011 and involved detailed case studies in 16 schools across four regions of Uganda - Fort Portal, Lira, Serotti and Kampala. Its findings were disseminated to policy-makers in Uganda's national curriculum council and examination boards as well as teacher educators.

The study is a good example of inter-institutional collaboration within Ireland, of which UCC was a part, and between universities in Ireland and Uganda, in which tangible support for universal secondary education was provided. Significantly, Uganda introduced universal secondary education in 2006 and is a leader in this area in sub-Saharan Africa. The day-to-day reality of double-shift teaching, with teachers working from 8 a.m. to 6 p.m., was very clear in our interviews with teachers and principals. This broadening of policy priorities beyond universal primary education, UPE, represents a highly significant reorientation of the education system priorities in sub-Saharan Africa and one which merits sustained focus in the future in the context of development aid. It may be a matter for us and Irish Aid to consider. For example, in sub-Saharan Africa, 1 million teachers will be needed in the coming years to meet the demand for primary and post-primary teaching.

Professor Tony Ryan

I thank the joint committee for giving me an opportunity to address it today. I am a paediatrician who specialises in newborn medicine. For ten years, with my colleagues in Cork, including Dr. Sami Ahmed, who is from Sudan, we have made approximately ten visits to Sudan to teach newborn resuscitation at Ombdurman Maternity Hospital, the largest maternity hospital in Sudan. We realised, however, that approximately 80% of deliveries in Sudan take place outside of hospitals - primarily in villages - and most deaths occur in the newborn period around the time of delivery. As a result, we decided to introduce the Helping Babies Breathe programme, a new initiative from the American Academy of Pediatrics.

I will describe how babies are born in Sudan and the changes that arose as a result of the new programme. Selma is 16 years old and is having her first baby in a village of 100 houses. Her midwife, Fatima, receives a call on her mobile phone informing her that Selma is about to deliver. All of the midwives have mobile phones. Fatima puts on her white sari. She has a bucket of water which was boiled the previous night and an aluminium box containing equipment that has also been boiled. She walks across the village and knows which house to enter because everyone in the village is gathered around it. A birth is a festival in the village. She enters the house to find Selma, her mother and the father's mother. The midwife will sit on a stool, while the two other women will be on either side of Selma. The midwife, who does not have gloves or a local anaesthetic, will wash her hands, make a large episiotomy and deliver the baby. If the baby cries, there is a good chance it will live. If it does not cry, she will hand it to a grandmother before delivering the placenta. The grandmothers know the baby will die because it did not cry and the people outside will turn away from the house. They will say, "Selma is young and will have another baby next year."

The next year, Fatima may come to Helping Babies Breathe, where we will teach her how to use the equipment, which I have brought with me. Fatima must concentrate on giving the first minute of life to the baby and helping it breathe in the first minute. If Selma becomes pregnant again the following year and the midwife returns to the village, she will have a plan. She will wash her hands and prepare her bag and mask for delivery. She will also prepare a clean area in the room in case the baby needs help. When the baby is born she will place it on Selma's tummy and dry it vigorously to stimulate it. If the baby is still not breathing, she will cut the cord, bring it to the clean area and keep it warm. She will then suction out the baby's mouth, place the mask around its head and squeeze the mask, repeating the words "Breathe, two, three." She will then change the position of the mask, repeating the same words. The baby should begin to move and cry. If it starts to breathe within the first minute, it will survive, and Fatima will bring it to her mum.

Helping Babies Breathe is based on a very simple concept that if a baby breathes within the first minute of birth, it will have a chance of survival. We will change practices through this programme. Last year, Irish Aid provided funding to enable us to purchase 1,000 bag masks and suction balls at a cost of approximately €25 per training.

We trained 1,000 midwives in Sudan last year, another 1,000 pieces of equipment have been purchased and Sudanese doctors and midwives are currently being trained in their use. This is not in the city, but in rural villages throughout the country. There are 14,000 midwives in Sudan so we must train 12,000 more.

There are no other organisations apart from Irish Aid training village midwives in Sudan. This is an opportunity for Ireland, which has drained more than 16,000 doctors from Sudan into Ireland, to pay Sudan back.

I thank Professor Ryan for a very detailed account of circumstances in Sudan. Some of our members must leave briefly for an important meeting but they will be back.

How many students attend the centre at one time?

Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick

Given that the centre is university-wide, we do not have students who study specifically in the Centre for Global Development, apart from about 40 students who are on the bachelor's programme in international development in any one year. As Dr. Lahiff said, those 40 students all go on a six month placement with an NGO. That aspect of the course has been supported by Irish Aid for the last ten years. We also have master's degree students and there are PhD students from developing countries in different faculties; there are 40 students from Nigeria. The campus is very international, with up to 2,500 to 3,000 students from around the world, many from developing countries.

I also welcome our guests. It was heartening to listen to the contributions. There is no insular thinking in UCC, that is obvious. There is almost imperial design in some of the thinking.

We got the annual report and a few aspects struck me about it. Did Professor Woodworth say that some of the funding for the FP7 programme came from the European Union?

Professor Simon Woodworth

Yes.

Must another member state act as a partner so that funding can be drawn down?

Professor Simon Woodworth

Yes, two other member states are involved, with the involvement of the University of Oxford and Lund University in Sweden, along with two NGOs involved in Malawi: Ungweru , and Luke International Norway. Mzuzu University is also involved, so there are several partners but altogether three European states are taking part.

I am glad to hear that because Ireland had a good record over the period those programmes have been in place, with different State agencies drawing down funding and it is welcome that funding has been sourced from outside the Exchequer.

Are the programmes tailored along the lines of the Irish Aid programme and partner countries? Is there co-ordination? There is a huge need for a massive investment in human resources and infrastructure. Everyone has pointed out when dealing with different aspects of international development cooperation, there is a need for investment in human and physical resources. Is there co-ordination with the World Food Programme and the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations? Both organisations have certain deficiencies but they have an international remit. We want to see co-ordination and the best possible outcome for the individuals who are the intended beneficiaries of all of this work and investment through Irish Aid and the university.

No mention was made of water resources, which are critical in both the developing world and emerging countries. I was glad to hear Dr. Lahiff mention collaboration with other universities. That synergy and leverage is needed to derive the best outcomes. The Chairman asked how many students attend the centre but how many of the students in the universities are local people who are availing of these courses? If we are to deal with these issues in a meaningful way, we must give the people in those countries the opportunity to acquire the skills and expertise. There must be a transfer for knowledge to the people in those countries.

I welcome this outline. I was not very familiar, and I am sure the public at large are not familiar, with the centre's work, which is very innovative. It is important there be that global outreach aspect to the work, while utilising an existing aspect of the domestic programme in UCC. I compliment the centre on its work. It is obviously getting some assistance from Irish Aid, and there were difficulties with Uganda recently. We discussed that in the committee on a number of occasions and there have been positive outcomes from Irish investment in school completion at primary level and the provision of health facilities over the years in Uganda. We want to send a clear message to the taxpayer at the same time that there are positive outcomes arising from the major investment that is taking place due to Exchequer funds in various programmes.

I welcome the opportunity to listen to this outline of the programmes and wish the centre every success.

Dr. Paul Conway

Looking through the Centre for Global Development report, there are a number of projects across a range of the Irish Aid countries. In each project there has typically been coordination through the embassy and integration with the country's plan that was developed by Irish Aid. Dr. Angela Veale's work on rehabilitation of former child soldiers in northern Uganda was supported partly through the work of the Irish Embassy. There are projects in Tanzania and Lesotho which were coordinated with the embassy, while another was in collaboration with a British agency. The Ethiopian projects are run directly with the Irish Embassy in the country. The synergies that are available through working closely with the embassy and Irish officials in-country are utilised by a number of projects.

Dr. Edward Lahiff

I thank Deputy Smith for his questions. We have had this close collaboration. There is always some tension in academic life. Do we follow policy directly or maintain some objectivity and distance? We try to get the balance right. We are clear there is a strong need to get people trained and a strong interest from students and organisations, State and NGO, for study in this field.

We have about 120 students at a time, who are predominantly Irish, taking the undergraduate programme but in our Ethiopian master's programme, the students are 100% Ethiopian and are selected by the Ethiopian Government. These are mid-career professionals based in rural areas who come into an Ethiopian university and study a degree which is co-branded as a joint degree from Makele University in Tigre and UCC. The students never come to UCC but the course is jointly taught by local academics and ourselves. That goes to the issue of building up local capacity. The model we use in working with universities in Ethiopia and elsewhere, such as Tanzania and South Africa, is always one of capacity building. We never want to take people away from their homes, train them and send them out into the world. We do not work with the individual, we always work with institutions. We might take a member of staff who has been trained up to PhD level and work with his home institution so he can go back there in future to work. Even if he moves on, as some people do, at least the home university has benefited through the process so it can do it the next time.

Dr. Conway referred to partnerships. The International Food Policy Research Institute, IFPRI, in Washington DC is also in close contact with Irish Aid. We have many links with the institute and there are visiting lecturers and students doing placements there. Another link we have developed recently is with the World Agroforestry Centre. The centre is another recipient of Irish Aid funding and is based in Kenya. We had two students last year on placement from the centre and we have two students this year. We have just made one of the senior staff there an adjunct professor in our department. Clearly, the links are becoming close indeed.

Reference was made to land and water. Professor Fitzpatrick will refer to the institutional focus, and certainly this is something that features in our teaching. My area of specialism is land reform in Africa. Land and water go very much hand-in-hand. What was referred to as the global land grab is now being reframed as a global resource grab, and water is absolutely essential to that; that is where it features.

Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick

I will continue on the water theme. There is a UN environment programme, EP, called the global environment monitoring system, GEMS. This is a set of monitoring stations for clean water throughout the globe. There are approximately 200 of these. The data are owned or managed and curated by one of the UN countries. At the moment Canada owns them until early 2014. There is now an opportunity for Ireland to take over the data management, with UCC leading, potentially in collaboration with a university in Germany. I spoke to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, on Friday last when he came to UCC to raise the green flag. He gave me permission to mention that he is confident that this will now happen and that we will be managing this major data management system for water quality measurement around the globe.

Mr. Lahiff referred to the programme in Tigray. I imagine many committee members saw the video shown last week at the Hunger-Nutrition-Climate Justice event. Agriculture, water table raising and similar issues form part of the whole programme in Tigray.

Our committee made a visit to that region one and a half years ago and we saw the projects there.

Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick

Yes; there is a very strong influence in Tigray of the work of the UCC department, and we are providing the professionals there. The question of whether we concentrate mainly on Irish Aid programme countries was asked. The answer is "No". There is a wide range. We see ourselves not only in the frame of traditional international development. In a sense, this is why we use the term "global development" rather than "international development". We have many people who work in different countries. There are people working in South America, for example.

We are also mindful of issues in other countries which may be seen as middle-income or further than middle-income. For example, we are studying the development of the smart city. The urbanisation of the global population is a significant issue in countries such as India and China. We have people who are working with our partners in Shanghai University, for example, on the concept of the smart city. This is something China needs, as does India. We work on a range of things in countries where the stratum is rather wide but which would not be regarded traditionally as developing countries.

Mr. Simon Woodworth

Although Malawi is an Irish Aid priority country and Irish Aid's priorities in Malawi are centred on nutrition, the Supporting LIFE project relates to health informatics and primary health care. While we are aware that Malawi is part of the Irish Aid programme, we have a slightly different set of objectives and a slightly different focus. That is not to say we are not aware of the objectives of Irish Aid.

Reference was made to capacity building. As part of the Supporting LIFE project and beyond, we are investigating and doing distance education work with the university in Malawi. We are looking at ways of building the capacity of the university staff to engage with the global academic community in order that they can built up their knowledge and credentials and boost the capacity of the university there.

Professor Tony Ryan

It is important to recognise that aside from these university links there are hospital-to-hospital links as well. The HSE has sought to encourage hospital-to-hospital links. This is why Irish Aid has supported the new ESTHER, alliance which is encouraging such links. Our programme has become one of the first ESTHER European links between north and south. About 20 health professionals, including doctors, midwives, biomedical technicians and ambulance personnel, have travelled under our project to Khartoum and have gained not only professionally but personally. I heard feedback from one person who travelled and his comments reflected what everyone had said. He said that he did not feel proud when he came back, but humbled. That was a common feeling. He was humbled by what was achieved by the people with the resources they had. It can be inspiring for our health professionals to see what other people do. It can be powerful for our people to continue the long tradition of volunteerism that has been part of Irish society.

I welcome the delegation here this afternoon. I enjoyed the theatrics from Professor Ryan. It helps to get the message across to people at home who are watching that it is simple and straightforward. If it gets the results he claims, then certainly it is a programme that should be funded. I presume that is part of what he will be looking for today from the committee - an increase in funding.

Many of us in Ireland would be horrified at the idea of people having a child outside the hospital environment, but I am an example of that. Ireland has moved on a good deal but I was born at home because I could not wait for the hospital. I imagine there are many others from my generation who went through the same thing. Anyway, with a simple breathing machine or breathing apparatus, people can go through it. I wish the professor well in that regard.

Deputy Brendan Smith said it was not unique and that other universities were involved, and he referred to different development contacts with other organisations. When I was on South Dublin County Council we were involved in a particular programme. The staff there went out and architects were trained. The funding came from the staff. I could never understand why that was not replicated by other local authorities. It was an initiative by the management. Everyone had seen the benefit of the exercise and anyone that went on the trip was an ambassador for change. Is there ever an opportunity for the different groups such as those of the delegation, South Dublin County Council and other universities to get together to consider the work they are doing and discuss their experiences and how they can be improved or replaced by other programmes? It seems so obvious. We always refer to the lack of joined-up government, but this is an example of how UCC could work in this area.

Reference was made to the number of students coming to UCC from different developing countries. Is there a difficulty for students coming to Ireland in terms of visas, accommodation and so on? How is this funded under the programme? How does UCC select the countries? Reference was made to how the embassies gave advice and so on, but how does UCC specifically go about it? Is there a programme in mind? Does UCC look around the world and decide that a given country is suitable for collaboration?

Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick

The Deputy began by mentioning funding. We are not specifically here to ask for money.

They would not turn it down.

Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick

No, we would not, but it is more a question of providing information. We get a good deal of support from Irish Aid. One point I made at the Irish Aid expert advisory group is that there is a vast resource in third level education which perhaps is not being capitalised on as much as it might be with regard to Ireland's public engagement with developing countries. That is my thinking. In some ways this is more about information and letting the committee know what can be achieved when people get together. The general area of collaboration within the Irish system is significant. Dr. Conway might comment on that with regard to Irish Aid-supported programmes.

Dr. Paul Conway

Professor Fitzpatrick's point about the potential contribution of the third level sector in Ireland and internationally to understand and to engage with development has been one of the significant areas of change in the past decade. There has been a coming together of development workers and the international third level sector. This has been supported in Ireland through the work of Irish Aid and the programme for strategic co-operation which is now in its third phase. I refer to one project as an example. The Irish-African partnership for research capacity-building was the first project involving all nine universities on the island of Ireland, both North and South. The project looked at building research capacity in Malawi, Mozambique, Tanzania and Uganda. UCC was a partner in that project. It included Irish universities from North and South working with universities in those four countries. It was a very significant project for understanding the complexity of research capacity-building in very diverse national and university contexts. For example, it involved interviewing 300 mainly senior and mid-level academics across the 13 to 14 universities involved in the project which helped significantly to understand the challenges of promoting that joined-up thinking. Projects with Irish Aid funding can provide the context for colleagues across Irish universities to begin to understand development in new ways and also to consider how academics across universities may work together. Professor Tony Ryan referred to the Esther network which provides support at the level of the individual institution, as does our centre for global development. It is important to provide cross-institutional support by fostering the links across institutions, such as hospital to hospital or university to university. This has been a very valuable global development in the past decade.

Dr. Edward Lahiff

It is always a challenge initially. For example, a student from Tanzania had been accepted to undertake doctorate studies with us. He was interviewed and his competence was beyond question. His entire education from preschool had been through English. Yet, he was held up by the Irish embassy in Tanzania over a certificate to show he had competency in English. That is like asking you or me to produce a certificate showing we are competent in English. Those are the little headaches. Some students arrived last week from Ethiopia and they were confronted with the new €300 charge when applying for a Garda identification document. I do not know the technical term for the document. That charge was not there before and it was a bit of a shock. Those students are only staying in Ireland for a month. These are the glitches which can arise but I do not think they are any worse than in any other country.

On the question about networking, people in the development sector tend to be fairly switched on to wastage and opportunities and working across sectors. For example, our AGRIDIET project involves UCD and UCC. As Dr. Paul Conway said, Universities Ireland has been involved in bringing all the universities, North and South, into a common forum to discuss aid and particularly through the partnership with Irish Aid. Four years ago, along with other academics I was involved in setting up a branch of the Development Studies Association which is a North-South body including virtually every institution in the country. We have recently received support from Irish Aid to advance that work. We also have international linkages. We are not as disconnected as people might think. As part of the development agenda we are always looking to how things can be done better.

I reiterate the remarks of Deputy Brendan Smith. I really enjoyed the presentations which are very interesting. Like Deputy Smith, I had no idea that this work was under way down in Cork but I suppose there are a lot of things going on in Cork that we do not know about. I was struck by how practical the project is. My heart was beginning to race when that doll was not responding in that vital minute. It is good to know that rigorous research is underpinning the work of Irish Aid and the NGOs.

Irish Aid has a very strong nutrition programme in Malawi. The reason for that programme is the fact that so many children in Malawi are stunted in growth and this has implications for their health. The delegates spoke about mobile phone apps. The Third World probably has more mobile phones than we have. One of my abiding memories of Malawi is seeing a couple walking along the ditch in the road. The woman was carrying a baby on her back and the fuel on her head while her husband was carrying a mobile phone. I am not terribly sure that the women are the ones with the mobile phones. Who tells the people that such an app is available? Is it the Malawi Government or the NGOs?

Mr. Simon Woodworth

There are a couple of parts to the answer. One of the reasons we engaged with two NGOs in Malawi is to ensure we could distribute the app. The first NGO is Luke International Norway, which has experience with developing computer applications to manage anti-retroviral treatment clinics. They have a very good patient registration system where people's thumb prints are scanned and they are given their anti-retroviral drugs. They then return after a few weeks for further consultation. The NGO has a considerable level of technical capability which is being developed all the time. The second part is the social acceptance element of how that app gets to the health surveillance attendants and also how it becomes accepted by the patients. The second NGO is Ungweru. Professor Fitzpatrick has been heavily involved with this NGO since its founding. The name of the NGO means, "Light". This NGO is very good at social engagement and community work and building. It has a budget as part of the project to work with local communities. The app will be trialled in the clinics and in the rural areas. The NGO will explain how the app works and how it will be used. It is hoped this will encourage acceptance of the app. The other element is technological. Since we started talking about this project about 15 months ago, smart phones were costing about $200 each. They are now half the price for a cheap android phone and the price will drop further. The introduction of any technology is tricky because there needs to be an infrastructure to support it. The other element is capacity-building in the universities so that eventually the ICT departments can take over ownership and maintenance of the software. I am intrigued by the Deputy's comment about the husband and wife with the phone. I will check that out because we really want the women to have the phones.

They may have mobile phones but the man was carrying it like it was a badge. The woman was carrying the week's fuel on her head.

Mr. Simon Woodworth

The health surveillance attendants are the target group. They are part of a government training programme which was started under the previous Mutharika government and now the Banda government has taken it over. They are being trained in some primary care in rural areas. We want those people to have the phones. We have had some good industrial contacts in Malawi with a couple of companies who have come up with some very clever incentivisation programmes to get people to use the phones, to maintain them and not lose them. They give incentives such as free credit every month. We are not sure of the appropriateness of some of those incentives as yet. However, as we work through the project - we are about 18 months away from carrying out the pre-trial study in Malawi - we are pretty confident we will have most of this worked out.

Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick

We may not have mentioned a couple of points. Public outreach is a very important aspect of our work. We have a global challenges lecture series. Robert Gallo was one of the lecturers. Mary Robinson spoke on climate justice. More recently, we had Myles Wickstead who was part of the Tony Blair government on the Gleneagles Agreement and also Catherine Mowanga who is the Kenyan ambassador. We have very close links with the ambassadors in Ireland from programme countries and also from non-programme countries such as Kenya. We held an afternoon seminar with Mary Robinson and with researchers from different fields.

There were people present who are interested in the status of women, in energy, in water and in food. Stimulated by her presence, we brought together a group of people from different parts of the university to discuss how their research was impacted upon by the idea of climate justice. Catherine Mwangi was one of the architects of the Africa strategy and when I consulted her about the issues she might like to address, I thought she would want to speak about that. However, she wanted to speak about the status of women. The status of women in developing countries is central to what we are doing and is implied in the question posed. We are very conscious of the status of women in the context of small-holder farming. University College Cork was one of the founders of the theory of the co-operative movement. We can see the potential future for Ireland in the context of the development of co-operative farming in countries such as Malawi, where small-holder farms are run by women.

Everything we do in respect of our outreach programme is available on our website via podcast. We try to get as much material as possible into the public domain in order to inform the public. We are just about to embark on a project by means of which all of the secondary schools in the Cork region will be visited and we will use this document as a focus for conversation. In that way we will bring the concept of global development to the attention of the public.

Professor Tony Ryan

On Deputy Crowe's comments on sustainability and how things happen, when I look back at our project it brings to mind the book, The Tipping Point: How Little Things Can Make a Big Difference. The author of that book, Malcolm Gladwell, mentions four different ways in which things happen. I am of the view that these could be applied locally. One of them is that one needs a small group of committed citizens in order to get something done. In short, one needs a dedicated group. I am sure that, as politicians, members are aware of the importance of small groups of committed people. Connectors are also required. We had a very strong connector with a local paediatrician from Sudan, who is really committed to making things better in his home country. Knowledge makers are also needed. For us, the knowledge makers were Sudanese doctors who returned to their country and decided to see if they could make a difference in introducing evidence-based practices in the largest maternity hospital there. The fourth thing required was the "stickiness factor". This related to trying to keep things happening in Sudan and to keep the doctors there. One reason which encouraged them to stay was the fact that they were recognised. One of the ways in which they were given recognition was via the Irish health awards. We brought them over to accept their award and when they returned home they were recognised for what they had done. I was surprised by the difference the award made for them.

The four aspects to which I refer really created sustainability for them. In other words, they allowed them to carry on. We were just there to support them. The four aspects also delivered a message to me in respect of partnership.

I am mesmerised by the quality of the work our guests are doing. If I had known about the centre for global development at University College Cork when my daughter decided to do her primary degree there, I would not have been as sad about her leaving if I had known that she would be receiving an education of this quality. Her primary degree was in food science and she has now moved on to look after children at Great Ormond Street Hospital in London.

This is an absolutely fascinating subject. Some members, including the Chairman, have just returned from the conferences on hunger, nutrition and climate justice which was sponsored by Mary Robinson and the Government. We interacted with everyone including people from the Masai to pastoralists to people from tiny villages in Nepal to individuals from Niger. It was a fascinating event. I congratulate University College Cork, in the first instance, and I also wish to congratulate Irish Aid. I was not aware of the latter's centre or of the fact that it is working so diligently, professionally and in such an advanced manner behind the scenes in order to encourage the university to engage in so many of these programmes.

The Chairman and other members have visited some of the Irish Aid programmes in Sierra Leone. I refer, in particular, to the programme based on the concept of improving nutrition in the first 1,000 days from conception to the age of two. We also witnessed the work taking place on the feeding programmes. The conditions in which people in Sierra Leone live are terribly poor. Hygiene is sadly lacking and there are huge numbers of young children. In the context of what was discussed at the conference sponsored by Mary Robinson and the Government, how is duplication in the provision of development services dealt with? We are all aware of the development studies centre at Kimmage Manor. I do not know how many missionary agencies in this country run such facilities. Does duplication occur in the context of educating people in this area?

Professor Fitzpatrick referred to the Africa strategy. The committee was very impressed by that strategy when it came before us for discussion. Did our guests contribute to the strategy? Do they follow its development?

Deputy Mitchell referred to stunted growth. As our guests are aware, the conference to which I refer dealt with the role of women, mainly in Africa but also in Mongolia and Nepal. Apparently, many of the farmers in the various countries in these regions are women. They need to be sustained by means of improving the quality of their land from the point of view of food production. I presume our guests are expert in advising Irish Aid on or in operating in conjunction with it in respect of upgrading the quality land from the point of view of production. A very strong message was put across at the conference to the effect that there is a need to listen to people. It is clear that our guests listen to and educate those people.

The millennium development goals are under review and they expire in 2015. Will our guests indicate whether they play a role with regard to lobbying politicians or is Irish Aid already pushing them towards influencing the type of development goals that will be put in place after 2015?

Our guests will excuse me for watching the monitors on the wall. They may have noticed a little theatrical business between Deputy Durkan and me. We both wanted to view what is going on in the Dáil and Seanad because we are both due to make contributions in the respective Houses of which we are Members. There was no discourtesy intended.

I welcome the submission presented by our guests, which was invigorating. We need something positive in these very difficult days. It is certainly positive to see Ireland, via third level university programmes and so on, becoming involved in such an imaginative way. The degree of co-ordination is very impressive. I want to recognise that in the first instance. Professor Ryan referred to how important it was for the doctors to whom he referred to be recognised. Our guests should also take their bows because they deserve to be recognised for what they have done. Their work is very important.

Our guests covered a wide range of matters. I was particularly taken by Professor Ryan's wonderful and simple demonstration, which brought matters alive for all of us. I have been a member of the committee since it was founded 20 years ago and I have never seen anyone use props in the way Professor Ryan did. It was a splendid demonstration. I am sure that in the future it might be overdone but as a beginning, this was really terrific. There is another side to all of this, namely, the whole question of population. This is something of a hobbyhorse of mine. I am not for one second stating that the children involved should not be saved or that we should not invest massively in Africa, a continent to which Europe has done so much damage. However, I am of the view that it is very important to track population trends and universities can do that. No one is facing up to this matter. The UN presents a population report each year but this never mentions population.

It mentions genital mutilation, education and such issues. Tracking population trends is something the universities could do because that underlines all the problems our guests spoke about, namely, food access, water resources and everything else. Could anything be done at an academic level to track those trends and how they collide in terms of food distribution, the deterioration of soil and what can be done to amend that? That is my first question.

My second and third questions have been partly answered. I was glad to hear that there are areas of co-operation with other organisations. That is very good. The centre is in Cork and well done to our guests for pioneering it. What about co-operation with the Voluntary Service Overseas and other such organisations? I am sure many young graduates who find it difficult to get employment here might find it a very useful first stage to go overseas and do work that would give them an ethical framework for the rest of their lives. Is there any co-operation between the centre and those types of group?

My third question has been answered to a certain extent but I would focus a little more on the issue. It is great that there is this degree of co-operation between different universities. I am not saying our guests should yield the borders of their control, and while no university has all the expertise, are there areas of expertise that could be drawn in from other third level institutions, whether they be universities or technical colleges, such as CIT, DIT or WIT?

My final question is about the glitches that have arisen. That is appalling and it is not a small matter. I am referring to Dr. Lahiff's comment about people being charged €300 unexpectedly, having difficulty in getting visas and being required to demonstrate language capacity. Is there any mechanism we can help establish to override those glitches in a fast-track manner? I have experience of this; I am interested in James Joyce and was involved in running the James Joyce Symposium for many years. Some of the world's most distinguished scholars were held up, sometimes because they had Arab names. People who had written about Finnegans Wake were asked questions by people whose competence was probably not terribly good even in the language they affect to speak. It was very insulting. We should register a stand at this bureaucracy. I feel this committee might be able to help in some way, even in an advisory capacity or by endorsement. I do not know whether that would be appropriate. People who are coming into the country for a month from a poor country should not be asked to stump up €300. That is offensive. We should also try to stop all this farting around asking people whether they can speak English. If they cannot, they are not going to come here. What would they come here for - to look at the ducks? If we can help in any way there, we should. Those are my four questions.

There is food for thought in those questions from Deputy Eric Byrne and Senator Norris. Our five guests can respond to those questions.

Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick

I might farm them out. I will ask Dr. Lahiff to talk about stunted growth, the millennium development goals and population issues.

Dr. Edward Lahiff

There is quite a mouthful there. I thank the Deputy and the Senator for their questions. The question of the MDGs is critical. While it is often right to focus down at village level and look at the detail - Irish Aid has a very good track record in doing that - we also need, as I am sure the members will appreciate, to focus on the big international issues. Ireland has a role to play in the reformulation of the MDGs, the so-called post-2015 agenda. That relates to issues not only of aid but also of global governance and trade. Senator Norris spoke about the global population and the key words I would use in that respect are the sustainability agenda. The sustainability agenda is absolutely central for the post-2015 agenda. Academics and activists can play their part but we need governments to step up and show leadership. Last week's conference was a critical marker in showing Ireland's seriousness about trying to set a global agenda, particularly around the two key linked issues of hunger and climate change. Ireland has staked out a role for this and it should not hold back. It should continue this not only on the hunger agenda but also on fairer trade regimes and the reform of international financial systems - those things which have a much greater impact on the lives of the poor than any particular feeding or health programme. Those big global issues feature prominently in our teaching, but we would just encourage the Government to keep pushing in that respect.

It will be a hell of a challenge with a population of 9 billion, which has increased from 3 billion when I was an undergraduate.

Dr. Edward Lahiff

Population is something of a taboo issue. We do not shy away from it in our teaching, but in international forums it is perhaps the last frontier. We are well aware that it is not the billions of extremely poor in Asia and Africa who are consuming the resources; it is the much smaller minority in the northern world who are consuming way beyond the planet's means. It is a complex debate but we do not shy away from it.

I have always celebrated when the population has gone down in France, Italy or Germany.

Dr. Edward Lahiff

Very good. In terms of specialism and bringing in resources, Ireland has made a real impact in the area of hunger and nutrition. It has kept hunger on the global agenda when many other countries would have preferred to push it away. UCC, likewise, has specialised in this area. It is why we want to have a new master's degree in this programme. We see it as a world leader. It would be aimed not at Irish or Cork students but at an international cohort of students. That is where we might come looking for support. We would love to have an organisation such as the World Food Programme involved in that programme. We need a sponsor as well, such as Irish Aid or an international body, to make it work. In terms of that area of specialism, the movement is already there and it should be encouraged if at all possible.

Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick

I will ask Dr. Conway to address the question about co-operation with NGOs, VSO and so on.

Dr. Paul Conway

An important part of the work of the Centre for Global Development in supporting students in understanding global development and developing an ethical framework, as Senator Norris mentioned, is the creation of contexts, such as seminars and public lectures that involve and are done in partnership with NGOs. For example, we have a lecture series in partnership with Front Line Defenders. James Kofi Annan came and spoke to a packed house in UCC. He was one of the speakers we had last year, and we have planned others. We work closely with Dóchas, the umbrella body for NGOs in the development area. We have also worked closely in the last year with Suas, whose agenda is to promote development education in the third level sector. It has recently undertaken a national survey, which has been very informative. One of the key findings from that survey - this would probably resonate with people - was that third level students have a great openness and willingness to engage with global development. That is across the third level sector, but what they often struggle with is seeing how their personal actions will make a positive impact on global development. There is an opportunity there with regard to their openness and willingness to engage, on the one hand, and on the other, their sense that it is not clear to them exactly how they can make an impact. This represents an opportunity within the third level sector. Part of our work in the Centre for Global Development, in collaboration with the four colleges and the various departments across them, is to support staff in working to foster that kind of global ethic in terms of what students get from a university education.

Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick

I would like to return to Deputy Eric Byrne's question on the Africa strategy. We did not contribute to it. That strategy almost predates the formation of the centre. It was launched by the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, in 2010. That strategy is about developing a wider spectrum of relationships with developing countries, from aid to trade. For example, in Zambia, Irish Aid has been doing similar work for the past 25 years even though, in the meantime, Zambia has become a middle-income country. The seeking of different relationships with middle-income countries is something that the Africa strategy espouses, and we are very conscious of that.

I return to the point we made that we consciously did not use the phrase "centre for international development" even though that was our working title for the first couple of years before we were formally launched. We changed the phrase to "global development", which indicates that we are also concerned with the development of sustainable societies and sustainable livelihoods.

In Malawi there are no starving children but there are many stunted children. There is limited access to energy, transport and the sort of economic development that would sustain society in a way to bring it forward. Irish Aid has a limited budget and therefore it concentrates on hunger alleviation in Malawi. That is exactly the right thing to do. The research and work we are doing has the core concept of the Africa strategy at its heart. We are looking for broader engagement.

The other point that was made related to collaboration with other institutions around Ireland. The Centre for Global Development is very much an umbrella organisation and the people who work within it have their own contacts and projects. We do not run projects. In other words, Mr. Woodworth’s project has collaborators in different universities around Ireland and around the world. We do not try to manage that. We are conscious of bringing in expertise. I cannot think of an example of something that Cork does not do. That said, we are open to-----

I think Professor Fitzpatrick is a Cork Fitzpatrick rather than a Laois one.

Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick

No, I am a Belfast Fitzpatrick. I am surprised the accent was not picked up.

My goodness. I did not realise we got that far. My mother was one.

We will have no more talk of relations for the moment. Does Mr. Woodworth wish to contribute?

Mr. Simon Woodworth

I will give a brief example of where co-operation with other institutions within Ireland would be beneficial. We have a project that has been looking at using unmanned aerial vehicles to transport drugs and medical supplies. In other words, using drones for saving lives for a change.

I like the sound of that.

Mr. Simon Woodworth

As it happens, UCC does not have a department of aeronautical engineering and there is some work to do on the flying machine itself. We have two possible options which we are still exploring. We have not formally talked to anybody yet, but, for instance, the University of Limerick has a department that is competent in the area and also Queen’s University Belfast. If we can figure out the funding in the next few months and put in a proposal across multiple institutions that sort of project would benefit hugely from the involvement of multiple Irish institutions.

Professor Tony Ryan

I wish to respond to Deputy Eric Byrne's question about the millennium development goals. For a long time the millennium goals in childhood looked at the major things for under-fives – gastroenteritis and immunisation - and the newborn was ignored. After a number of years it became clear that one could not reach the objectives until one addressed what we call neonatal wastage – the massive number of deaths in the newborn period. That is why the investment began into newborn wastage. It is a terrible phrase but it represents the notion that, as I said earlier, Selma is young and she can have another baby next year. That attitude puts Selma at great risk because she has a one in 18 chance of dying during her childbirth years. Having more babies means more health complications. She could get an obstructed birth. She could get a fistula where her rectum will empty into her vagina and she will be isolated from her community - left out in the villages - and unless she is close to a city she will never get repaired. Her life could be over because of something like that.

There is also the question of whether having more babies increases the world population. It does not. The reason she is having more babies is because she is poor. People do not have more babies because of religious beliefs. They have more babies because of poverty and because they do not know if their children will survive. That is well established. Saving babies in the newborn period does not increase the world population. Also, saving babies well in the newborn period reduces damaged babies which is another reason for proper resuscitation of babies in the newborn period. I hope Deputy Byrne's daughter will contribute to that in her work in Great Ormond Street as well.

My apologies for my absence earlier. One can make it from the Chamber to the committee room in approximately 48 seconds. I needed to do that.

Deputy Durkan is still alive.

I am still alive but if one reads about my passing as a result of it, one will know what happened. I congratulate the witnesses for their input and commitment to the project they have outlined. It is very easy to talk about such issues but it is different to be committed to it and to be committed to innovation and helping people.

Reference was made to a global land-grab. We saw evidence of it last year. There is a particular vulnerability among African countries, especially those with resources. Competition is evident among land-grabbers to negotiate the land from under people which ultimately could have resources of considerable value. The negotiation with poor, small communities is much to the benefit of those involved in the acquisition.

I wish to comment on the development of solar energy and scientific research. I apologise if the question has been asked previously. There is an obvious abundance of solar energy waiting to be tapped in Africa. To what extent have the witnesses been able to get involved in it? Likewise, to what extent have they been able to liaise with other worldwide organisations with a similar commitment or in a different field with a view to offering or receiving support? I refer to the World Health Organization, the World Food Organization and UNICEF, to name but a few.

The areas of greatest need appear to be water and sanitation in addition to the issues raised. To what extent have the witnesses been able to use their influence with the responsible agencies, including aid agencies, in other areas with a view to addressing those issues? I dealt with an horrific case recently of female genital mutilation. It was appalling. To what extent have witnesses come across it? What is the best way to address it and to educate people to become aware of the serious implications for the lives and health of women?

Dr. Lahiff mentioned that additional funding sources will be required. His colleague, Dr. Conway, referred to Suas, a representative organisation. Does it have an umbrella body at European Union level? The European Union is a major contributor to international development co-operation. It could help with co-ordination and collaboration and be a possible source of funding to have a European representative body to deal directly with the directorate for development co-operation in the European Union. It would also ensure adequate collaboration and co-operation as well and the elimination of duplication.

Dr. Edward Lahiff

Some people call foreign direct investment in agriculture, land-grabbing. It is an emotive term. It is not entirely something that is imposed from outside on the developing world. Developing country governments, for one reason or another, collaborate with it. It could not happen without their say-so, but for one reason or another they see it as the best option or the only option for development. They are persuaded of that by trust funds from governments, not just from the northern hemisphere but from the southern hemisphere also as China, India and Brazil are all very active in this area. It does speak directly to the very weak land rights, property rights and human rights of many non-literate people, women in particular, in developing countries whose rights are ignored by the international community and their own governments. That is the harsh reality.

We must look at empowering local communities but we must also look at the development models of agriculture that are being foisted on developing countries. If the Government of Ethiopia is told that the only way out of poverty is to grow more export crops then the ones who will grow them are companies providing irrigation and infrastructure and the small, subsistence food producers who are looking after their own neck of the woods will be pushed to one side. It is a huge question. It is about how we conceive of development. Do we see it as being the old-fashioned modernisation, top-down paradigm or do we see it as empowering local people and allowing, for example, the Government of Malawi to give subsidies on fertiliser to allow peasants to grow a little more maize to feed their families? Or do we insist on a First World elimination of subsidies and the opening up of free trade, which leaves governments with limited options?

That is a bit of a mouthful, but it is a major international issue and a real threat to the livelihoods of poor people in rural areas.

To reply to Deputy Brendan Smith's question, UCD and UCC are the Irish members of the European Association for Development Research, a Europe-wide body that links institutions across 25 countries, east and west. I have just returned from one of its meetings - I am the Irish representative on that European committee. We work closely with the European Commission. The organisation is based in Bonn and very well connected. It also tries to integrate students; it has a PhD network across Europe working in these areas. That is one example of our Europe-wide involvement.

Dr. Paul Conway

Picking up on the points made by Dr. Lahiff about the land grab issue, that is illustrative of the way in which the Centre for Global Development can add value to our understanding of key issues. One of our colleagues in the Department of Philosophy in UCC, Dr. Cara Nine, has written a ground-breaking book on territoriality and justice. Through the Centre for Global Development, such a book can feed into a wide variety of programmes, whether it be law, food and business development or water resources-----

I am sorry to interrupt, but how does the organisation relate to the pastoralists and the Masai people? A great deal of their land is being taken from them.

Dr. Edward Lahiff

It is about the diversity of land rights. If we are to recognise people's livelihoods and property rights, it is not a question of just one western model of the fixed farm with a fence around it. Many people in many parts of the world are pastoralists, not just for cultural reasons but also because that is the system of agricultural production that makes sense in semi-arid areas. Governments tend to be slow to recognise the rights of pastoralists. If they were to stay put, we could educate them and give them health services, but they move around and, therefore, are an awkward squad. That means working with governments to recognise that a different model of health care and education is necessary to reach them.

Is it a case of interfering with their culture?

Dr. Edward Lahiff

Pastoralists around the world suffer from modernisation and it points to a wider understanding of the meaning of development, especially bottom-up models of development. We cannot have development if we are not reaching the poorest groups in society. In that sense, it is a challenge, but it is part of the development challenge.

Dr. Paul Conway

There are two key points to the question the Senator posed on linkages with other institutions and agencies. The centre that will open in UCC, the United Nations environmental programme, GEM Centre, will be focused on water. When the centre opens next year, we will be making links with the variety of colleagues in other universities in Ireland who work in that area, particularly those in Trinity College, but Irish Aid also funded a project called Water for Life through the programme for strategic co-operation which was led by Dundalk Institute of Technology. When developments take place, we will engage in horizon scanning in terms of the expertise available within the Irish system.

To give another example of linkages, colleagues in the law department in UCC have been leading the way in developing child-friendly health care policies. They built links recently with the World Health Organization and there will be a centre hosted in UCC linked with the World Health Organization in promoting child-friendly health care policies, nationally and internationally. We are very much engaged in horizon scanning and watching for potential linkages, locally, nationally and internationally.

Does Mr. Woodworth want to speak about solar energy?

Mr. Simon Woodworth

The health information systems research centre in the College of Business and Law, of which I am part, has established a relationship with the Irish charity Solar Without Frontiers. It is not the only charity involved in this area; there are several others. In terms of the reason we have done this, in March I returned from Malawi where I visited a rural clinic at a time when all of the patients were attending. We spoke to one of the doctors who was reticent about talking in his office, but he came to chat to us later. We asked him what he needed the most and he replied "energy." They are too far away from the grid infrastructure for it to be economical to build a link. It must be borne in mind that many sub-Saharan countries are close to the Equator where twilight is very short and for half of every day there is no daylight. It is not like in Ireland where we have long summer evenings and one can make use of the sunlight.

If we had a summer.

Mr. Simon Woodworth

The doctor in question was begging for solar power. Solar Without Frontiers has done fantastic work in southern Malawi. When I was there, it commissioned a solar panel set for a hospital where two children had died the previous week because they were unable to maintain an oxygen supply during a power cut. As soon as the solar panels were installed, there were no more such deaths. There is a fantastic YouTube video of all of the staff celebrating. The point is well made. It is part of our strategy to build a permanent research centre and also part of the Supporting Life project. We will look to integrate everything as we move ahead.

Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick

We recently introduced a chapter of Engineers Without Borders which is similar to Médecins Sans Frontières. All of these issues about energy, water, environmental monitoring and so on are close to the surface in what we are doing.

Professor Tony Ryan

I do not want to make a soundbite on what is a complex issue. In January I was in Sudan where up to 80% of women suffer female genital mutilation, FGM, or are cut, as it is called. I met three or four groups. The hospital we work with is the largest maternity hospital in the world where there are 35,000 deliveries a year, which is the total for the three maternity hospitals in Dublin and Cork University Hospital combined. Most of the women in the hospital have been cut. I met medical students, many of whom had been brought up in the United Kingdom where their fathers had been trained and I presume they had not been cut, but many of them were part of the advocacy groups which visited schools to try to discourage FGM. They were advocating against it. I met midwives and began to realise that the wives of many of the doctors to whom I had spoken had been cut, as had the midwives. I felt it was a shameful topic for them to talk about and that it made them uncomfortable. It was a deep cultural issue and not a comfortable one to raise.

I also met a doctor who was probably the world expert in repairing the extraordinary damage done to some females, not only in making the initial cut but also episiotomy cuts and repairs subsequent to having babies. I met the village midwives also who were paid to make the cuts when children were about six years of age and it was over and done with in about two or three minutes. As to whether they could have been prevented, the only persons who could have prevented them were the men, but they were up against a strong female culture that drove the practice. I am aware that legislation against the practice was introduced in most African countries, but that did not stop it taking place. The Sudanese President made it known publicly that his children had been cut and that was a huge driver in dealing with the practice in the country. It is a complex issue. It is very sad, very difficult medically and also culturally.

I thank all of the delegates. The Centre for Global Development is a fascinating story. As many members did not even know the organisation existed, it is important that its representatives have come before the committee because they are making a difference and that is what counts. We have had an interesting debate. There was some straight talking and members were forthcoming with their questions. They had additional questions that they wanted to ask, but we have a busy schedule for the remainder of the afternoon.

Professor Patrick Fitzpatrick

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee. We are pleased with the encouragement we have received and the engagement that has taken place through questions. We are delighted that we have had this opportunity.

My visit to Cork to launch the book was fruitful, as it resulted in the delegates coming before us. I thank them and wish them well in their ongoing work at the centre. I hope we will keep in touch.

Sitting suspended at 4.10 p.m. and resumed at 4.12 p.m.

I am very pleased to welcome this afternoon a man who was used to coming to this room as a politician, both as a backbencher and Minister of State, Mr. Barry Andrews. He is now here in a very different capacity, namely, as chief executive officer of GOAL. We have been very anxious to have Mr. Andrews present following his visit to Syria. He is joined by Mr. Alan Glasgow, head of business development in GOAL.

Members are well aware of the excellent history and work of GOAL in the alleviation of the suffering of the poor and the poorest. For nearly four decades, GOAL has been to the forefront of the response to major humanitarian disasters in over 50 countries. It is currently contributing to humanitarian relief in Syria, from where Mr. Andrews has just returned. He was within a short distance of the conflict. He will concentrate predominantly today on his visit to Syria because it is a very important subject. There seems to be political deadlock regarding Syria and there appears to be no solution forthcoming in the shorter term. It is important that Mr. Andrews focus on Syria because we have focused on it at many meetings. Even when we go overseas, we note that politicians are focusing on Syria all the time, without any short-term results.

I advise witnesses that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of utterances at the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease making remarks on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. Witnesses are directed that only commentary or evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a Member of either House of the Oireachtas, a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Andrews to address the committee.

Mr. Barry Andrews

I thank the Chairman and members for the kind invitation to attend today. As the Chairman pointed out, GOAL has been operating in some of the poorest parts of the world on behalf of some of the poorest people in the world since the late 1970s. We are currently operating in 13 countries and employ almost 3,000 staff, most of whom are nationals of the countries in which we work.

Today I will talk about our latest intervention, which is in Syria. I very much welcome the opportunity. As the Chairman said, I returned from Syria less than two weeks ago. I had an opportunity to examine our operation there. I will talk about that experience in the context of the conflict in general.

I reviewed the transcripts of this committee from December, when representatives of Médecins Sans Frontières, MSF, attended to speak about their experience in Syria. I respect the committee's ongoing prioritisation of this subject. It is worth pointing out that when the committee spoke to MSF, the death toll was 40,000. Today, just four months later, it is almost 80,000. In December, there were 1 million displaced individuals but the number has more than doubled since then. All of the indicators suggest the conflict will get worse. Last week, Mr. António Guterres, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, said this is the worst humanitarian crisis since the Cold War. These are very strong words. After the Rwandan genocide, the United Nations tried to reflect on how it could ensure it would not happen again. One method of answering the question was to develop a concept whereby it could reconcile the sovereignty of a state with the duty to protect that state's citizens in circumstances in which they are subjected to mass atrocities, human rights violations and, in some cases, chemical attacks. The United Nations answered the question through its principle of the responsibility to protect. The objective was to establish that the sovereignty of a state is a duty rather than a right. Where a country fails to discharge its duty to protect its citizens from the kinds of attacks in question, it will engage the UN obligations, from which consequences flow.

Two years since the beginning of the conflict in Syria, there is total paralysis in respect of the international community's response. As such, the United Nations is in a position in which it cannot find its voice, with the consequence that people are suffering. Since this committee last discussed the issue, a further 40,000 people have died. In June, when harvests will be very much diminished, challenges will arise in regard to resources. Those challenges will lead to further conflict, and the reality is that by some stage in the summer the death toll will have exceeded 100,000. The words of Mr. Guterres may not be hyperbole and may be accurate.

The US President, Mr. Barack Obama, has said the use of chemical weapons would be a red-line issue for the United States and that it would not turn a blind eye to their use. However, as we have seen, the French and UK Governments and the brigadier general in Israel have said in the past 24 hours that they are satisfied that chemical weapons have been used in the Syrian conflict. This makes us wonder whether any political solution to the conflict can be found.

Let me concentrate on GOAL's intervention in Syria. We decided we would operate inside Syria because we felt that those with the fewest resources are those who are least able to get out of the country. In the context of post-conflict reconciliation, it is much better to try to help people who are already in the country to stay in the country. Thus, we decided to intervene within the Syrian borders. GOAL is the only Irish NGO inside Syria providing intervention for those affected by the conflict.

GOAL began its intervention using its own resources by providing aid in the northern province of Idlib. Subsequently, it partnered with Irish Aid and, more recently, the US Government through Food for Peace and OFTA. We are scaling up our intervention and hope it will reach almost 250,000 people by the summer. Having said that, we recognise the need is escalating beyond any measurements taken at the beginning of the year.

Of the money pledged by donor governments at the beginning of the year, only 20% has been honoured. I recognise that the international community, in failing to achieve unity of purpose and a unified platform, is hamstrung, but it should at least do what it said it would do. It said it would honour the pledges and has not done so. Every day, we hear from UN agents that they cannot do their work. As recently as last week, Ms Valerie Amos, the Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, stated this is a humanitarian catastrophe. One can have sympathy for the fact that the UN Security Council cannot achieve unity of purpose but one cannot have sympathy for the fact that the international community has failed to do what it said it would do. Even if it honoured its commitments fully, it would have to recognise that needs have grown so much in recent months that its pledges would not be sufficient to meet them.

I had the opportunity to visit Syria less than two weeks ago. The objective of the visit was to assess our operational protocols and our security position and to visit the local staff. All our staff in Syria are nationals of that country. Many of them have been very badly affected in that they have lost loved ones, property or their livelihood. They conveyed to me the urgency of the situation and pleaded with me to advocate here and wherever I could find a forum for a greater sense of urgency, more attention and intolerance for the inertia that has characterised the response to the conflict over the past few months.

I was struck by the fact that as the conflict continues, this has led to a radicalisation of people who would otherwise be moderate in respect of the issues, particularly in terms of community relations between the Sunni and Shia. The longer this goes on, the difficulties posed in post-conflict reconciliation will be all the greater. To try to resolve those issues will be a greater challenge again. We need to bear in mind that the further this goes on, the greater the radicalisation and the more difficult reconciliation will be.

In addition, the fragmentation will be greater among those who are opposed to the Assad government. As a humanitarian agency, GOAL does not take sides in any of these political issues. However, the longer this goes on, the more fragmentation there will be and the more difficult it will be to find any unity of purpose on either side of the conflict.

The committee met with Médecins Sans Frontières at the end of last year. MSF made a very impactive presentation about the work it was doing in Syria at that time. In 2012, Mr. Kofi Annan was appointed as the UN special envoy to Syria. He resigned his position last August citing frustration with the failure of the international community to do anything by way of a commonality of purpose. That continues to this day in April 2013.

There has been a complete failure on the part of the international community and it is resulting in ongoing deaths. The humanitarian effects of this situation are incredible. Last week, the UN assessed that 6.4 million people are in humanitarian need and that by the end of this year, more than half the population of Syria will have a humanitarian need.

Therefore, as parliamentarians, members of the joint committee have a significant role in this respect. I noted at the outset that the committee has prioritised Syria, which I respect and welcome. However, in their parliamentary careers, members of the committee will only be faced with one or two major humanitarian crises. If this is - as António Guterres, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, says - the worst humanitarian crisis since the Cold War, then it behoves the committee, and us as advocates, to do all we can to ensure that we use every forum and advocacy platform we have to raise the issues. In so far as we can, we must bring attention to the ongoing conflict and do everything we can to bring about a negotiated settlement.

At the beginning of my presentation, I referenced Rwanda and many people were determined to be able to say "Never again" and that had they known then what they know now, they would have done a lot more. However, we now have the knowledge about Syria and know what is going on there. The information is coming out because we live in a different age where we can confirm many of the atrocities that are being claimed on one side or the other, which is why the matter is so urgent.

I urge the committee to continue to try to raise this matter as often as possible. GOAL is determined to continue its intervention in Syria subject to our continuing review of security protocols. We hope we will be able to make a difference to those who have been affected by this conflict.

When Mr. Andrews visited Syria, what did he see at first hand inside the country's borders?

Mr. Barry Andrews

The area that I visited was in northern Idlib and was a relatively safe part of northern Syria. We did not go in lightly; the decision to go there was taken following a detailed assessment of security. This area had been liberated by the Free Syrian Army. We saw the devastating effects of the battle that had occurred there, including collapsed buildings. There was a mosque that had been attacked in which 80 people died. I was told that the bodies of those who died were still buried under the rubble.

I met individuals who lost their loved ones and I also met lots of people who were very radicalised. They would not have had that attitude in the past but for the conflict. Every single atrocity turns a moderate into a radical. As we can see in the newspapers, these atrocities are happening on a daily basis. The number of people leaving the conflict areas is enormous. Even where the conflict is not happening, there are huge internally displaced populations arriving there and putting enormous pressure on resources. That is where GOAL steps in and tries to identify those in greatest need. The area I visited a couple of weeks ago is where our intervention is operational.

I thank Mr. Andrews for his presentation. What he has outlined to the committee is both chilling and frightening. The figures in the formal presentation include 70,000 killed, 6.8 million in need of aid, 4.25 million internally displaced persons and 1.3 million seeking refuge in neighbouring countries. Of the 6.8 million people in need, Mr. Andrews mentioned that more than 50% are children. I read the Save the Children charity's report which graphically outlined the wholesale maiming, torture and murdering of children.

As Mr. Andrews said, we raised this matter no later than last Wednesday when the Tánaiste was here to present a report on meetings of the EU Foreign Affairs Council. We highlighted the need for this matter to be raised at every opportunity by the Government and the Tánaiste told us he has been doing so. The issue was also raised at the EU Foreign Affairs Council on Monday. A number of us have been raising the topic by way of parliamentary questions in the Dáil and at this committee. We will be glad to continue doing so.

I know that Mr. Andrews does not wish to enter into the political realm. However, has the fact that there is not a unified voice regarding the partial lifting of the arms embargo weakened the EU's role in trying to put pressure on the international community for a unified platform? Mr. Andrews said the UN cannot find its voice on this humanitarian catastrophe, which sums up everything. In effect, Russia has had a veto on the potential of the UN to make some progress.

Another issue has also been brought to our attention. It concerns allegations that humanitarian aid was being diverted to supporters of the Assad regime and so was not reaching those most in need. I tabled a parliamentary question on this matter. In his reply, the Minister of State, Deputy Costello, said it was acknowledged that many people still remain beyond reach, particularly in the most insecure areas in the north of the country.

From my memory, the Tánaiste indicated some progress was being made to get a better spread of humanitarian aid to the people most in need. Can Mr. Andrews indicate if any progress is being made incrementally in reaching other regions that have had no humanitarian assistance to date, and in the broader region outside Syria as well?

I call on Deputy Crowe. If we could all ask questions, we will get through this much quicker.

I welcome the GOAL representatives here today. Last Thursday, there was a briefing in the audio-visual room on Syria, which was attended by someone representing the Free Syrian Army. He gave his view on what was happening there. It is important for politicians to remain engaged but part of the difficulty is that the only information we are getting is from the media. Very little information is coming back to Ireland on what is happening.

Mr. Andrews referred to the use of chemical weapons. According to some media reports, it is alleged that chemical weapons are being used by the Free Syrian Army in Allepo. On Thursday, the FSA representative was asked about what was going on in the liberated area, and whether women were being forced to wear the chador or veil. Such reports are emanating from Aleppo. People also asked about the Free Syrian Army itself. On 11 April, Le Monde had a leading article on the make-up of the Free Syrian Army.

It said the main, experienced fighters who make up the bulk of the forces is Jabhat al-Nusra which is linked to al-Qaeda. There is a difficulty with the information. We will certainly stay engaged.

As there is a lack of independent information, we welcome the attendance of the witnesses today. In referring to "commonality of purpose", what is it they want the Government to do? Do they want the arms embargo to be lifted? Do they think the introduction of more weapons will help? A question that was put on Thursday was whether there was a pipeline of weapons from Saudi Arabia and Qatar. The representative said there was not. According to the media, there are weapons going in from all sides, which is a difficulty, but more weapons will not resolve matters. I spoke to religious people earlier in the year who said they were looking for a third way, which it seems is not going to happen. They said many of the fighters were foreign not local. That is the difficulty. During the Iraq war, 1 million Iraqi people went to Syria. There are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians there. All of that is in the mix. What can we do aside from keeping ourselves abreast of events? What would a common position on lifting the arms embargo achieve? How would it make GOAL's job any easier? There was an allegation that aid was only going through government sources, but if one speaks to private aid groups, it is clear that aid is going to the liberated areas. People will not say that publicly. A representative of the Department of Foreign Affairs said adamantly that sides were not being taken but the aid was going through official channels such as the UN. That did not mean it was not going into non-government areas. Again, what can we do as Irish people?

I am concerned at the statistic that less than 20% of promised aid has been delivered. Is that an issue Ireland can address through its Presidency role? Some countries involved are member states of the EU. I was at the meeting last week with the man from the Syrian opposition also. One of the things he referred to was the number of people who have lost limbs or eyes. They need aid which is not getting through to them. Some months ago, we met with a group of Syrian doctors who live in Ireland who also expressed concern about getting aid directly to where it is needed.

Various people from the Syrian opposition have attended to speak to us at different events, but there has been no one from the government side. Someone has sent correspondence on that issue. What is GOAL's engagement with the government in Syria? I acknowledge the work of GOAL staff in Syria, having read some of their stories of losses, despite which they continue to work there.

Mr. Barry Andrews

Irish Government aid is provided through the UN system for the most part. The UN system must operate on the principle that the sovereignty of each member state is respected. Accordingly, aid is channelled through and respects the sovereignty of the member state and, as such, relies on it to ensure aid is distributed evenly among all of those affected by the conflict who have humanitarian needs. Naturally, there are many who have reasonably concluded that the Syrian government is not minded to distribute the aid evenly. GOAL operates in an area which is controlled by the Free Syrian Army and we provide a balance with other NGOs working on that side within the country. While Irish Government aid goes through one side, there is a humanitarian need on both sides. We do not take a position as to whose humanitarian need is greater. We are talking about women and children who are affected by conflicts with which they have nothing to do and no interest in. GOAL works in a difficult area but is on that particular side.

The question of adopting a position regarding the government in Damascus is a very difficult one. It is something we must explore. We have not done so. While it is very difficult to be on both sides in this kind of conflict, it it an issue we recognise. We do not advocate for one side or the other; we simply want to get access to provide humanitarian interventions for those most affected by the conflict. Deputy Crowe raised an issue. The cliché is that "truth is the first casualty of war", which raises the question of what we can rely on. One hears propaganda from both sides. Naturally, the spectre of al-Qaeda is raised by one side while allegations of atrocities are made by the Free Syrian Army. Atrocities are being committed by both sides. The media might not be very good at attending to these issues. Reading the transcripts of the committee's December meeting, I noted Senator Norris complaining that there were no media representatives in attendance.

This meeting will not be reported either.

Mr. Barry Andrews

Possibly. It is frustrating given the gravity of the humanitarian situation, which is not disputed by anyone in this room. The issue is to get the matter outside the room. Deputy O'Sullivan referred to the striking statistic that 20% of donor pledges have not been met. Surely, that is a platform for the committee members as parliamentarians. They could raise it constantly. It is not a question of exploring the difficult issue of sovereignty and the duty to protect it; it is simply a question of keeping promises and showing solidarity for citizens who are being hammered by this war.

It is not an intractable problem either. There are people who dismiss Syria. It does not engage the public, which dismisses it as being an issue in a hopelessly violent part of the world which sits on a tectonic plate of conflict where there are many competing interests. Russia, China and Iran appear to be on one side with Israel on another. That does not make it completely intractable. The North of Ireland was dismissed as a problem which could not be solved at one time. Being unable to do everything is not an excuse to do nothing. There are things which can be done. As a humanitarian agency, GOAL wants simply to get safe access to deliver our aid, capacity, competence and experience to this area. To reply to Deputy O'Sullivan, aid is not getting to where it is needed. The UN is pulling its hair out. Valerie Amos is saying this is the worst humanitarian catastrophe in a long time. The UNHCR is seeing 5,000 people a week pouring over the borders of Syria into neighbouring countries, including Turkey, Jordan and the Lebanon. Unfortunately, the need is not being met.

I thank Mr. Andrews for attending. Often, I wonder, given the complexities, diversities and scale of a problem, how an organisation decides where to provide aid. How does GOAL decide it is the northern liberated region as against another place that it will work in? We have been considering the figures for displaced persons pouring across the borders into Turkey and other places which are already under stress, including Lebanon. We are conscious of the dispossessed Palestinians who are already there. There is also a substantial Christian minority in the region. Who distributes the aid and who decides who will be its net beneficiaries?

We have been attacked by some Syrians who wanted us to give direct aid, a request that was refused because we had to go through the official channels and could not be seen to be aiding participants in war. Could the speakers explain the $4.6 million contract with the US Government's Food for Peace programme? GOAL is in this region that has been "liberated" so what is the principle behind the programme? What is the rationale for an aid organisation in an area of conflict signing a contract for food for peace?

I thank Mr. Andrews and Mr. Glasgow for coming before the committee and giving us the benefit of their observations and knowledge of the subject. We discussed this on numerous occasions. The problem lies in how the international community can intervene in what is essentially an internal conflict. Regime change has become a sensitive issue worldwide since the war in Iraq for obvious reasons. One does not know how best to address the situation other than to do the best one can in dealing with refugees coming out of the area because I cannot see what else can happen inside.

I am not so sure whether there is still a possibility of getting a peacekeeping arrangement through the UN. During the war in Bosnia, the UN was very lightly armed in comparison to the protagonists and as a result, did not really fulfil its mission to the extent that it should have. Is there any scope for the EU to establish safe havens inside Syria? I know that did not work in Bosnia but it worked all right up to the time it failed. That is a possibility. Is it in any way feasible? In respect of donor country commitments, does the 20% of aid delivered and the lack of donor delivery extend across the board? Does it affect other locations in a similar way or does it just relate to the particular situation in Syria?

There is a vote in the Dáil so if we asked our questions, we might get a reply for Senator Walsh.

I welcome Mr. Andrews and compliment him on the work he and his organisation are doing. In respect of the number of children, which Deputy Smith mentioned, and the 1.3 million seeking refuge in neighbouring countries, has any consideration been given to the effects on neighbouring countries? Deputy Nash and I visited Lebanon a few months back and visited refugee camps on the Syrian border. We saw at first hand the terrible conditions they were living in and the strains it was causing. I saw in the news last week that Hizbollah has become involved in some of the attacks within Syria, which could lead to the conflict spreading to other countries. Do the speakers have any feel for that?

GOAL is addressing the humanitarian needs of the Syrians and working to bring the fighting to an end. That was the constant refrain Deputy Nash and I heard there. Given the lack of cohesiveness within the international community, many of whose members seek to spread their influence regionally or internationally and to serve their own interests, how can that be achieved? Could the speakers elaborate on the radicalisation of children because this should be a major catalyst for countries with real influence to play a very constructive role in trying to bring some closure and assist negotiations for a final settlement?

I will not adjourn the meeting but we will let the Deputies go off to vote and I am sure the Senators will stay here with us. Could I plead with the Deputies to come back immediately?

I will have to go to the Seanad for Private Members' business so I hope I will be able to get in to talk about Magnitsky but if not, perhaps I might be alerted when there is going to be a vote on it. Mr. Andrews, who is a former Minister of State, and Mr. Glasgow are very welcome. Mr. Andrews is continuing in the fine tradition of his father, David Andrews. I remember him coming to the Seanad when he was Minister for Foreign Affairs and reporting with absolute passion and moral outrage about the situation in East Timor. Some of that was clear in the delegation's report and what Mr. Andrews said today.

Unfortunately, human rights are blown off the agenda by the financial situation. I may have been wrong about saying that we might not get reported because when I turned around, I noticed a very professional looking young woman with a notepad and pencil. It may be just an interested person but if it is somebody from the press, she is very welcome and I hope we will be reported because that is our lifeblood. We are never on Oireachtas TV as far as I can see. I do not bother watching it anymore but I used to and we never appeared. It was always the finance committee.

I have asked this question of other representatives in other situations. It is morally appalling that people step up to the camera with pledges and then do not follow through on them. Could we have a list of the donor defaulters and then this committee could write to their embassies for an update? We cannot tell them they must give the money but we could ask for an update on their position regarding this because we are interested in the situation in Syria. That might encourage them a bit. It is not much but it is perhaps all we can do. I am not even sure if that is possible.

Mr. Andrews said that people enter this conflict as moderates and come out as radicals. That is completely understandable and would probably happen to me if I saw the kind of things Mr. Andrews described in his report such as mosques attacked by government forces when people were at prayer and a man with his dead child in his arms. This is shocking stuff. What will we be confronted with after the endgame? What kind of regime will take over? The Assad regime is appalling, as was that of Saddam Hussein. What came after was infinitely worse. Does Mr. Andrews have any views on that? Is there anything positive in the endgame? How can we help without further radicalising and interfering in internal affairs because we would all like to see a decent government replacing what is there. The awful prospect is that it might be even more oppressive but oppressive in a different way. That is why people are hesitant, perhaps foolishly, to intervene. My view is that they should have gone in with a big stick at the beginning and whacked it.

I welcome Mr. Andrews and Mr. Glasgow. Probably the most frightening comment Mr. Andrews made in his presentation was that we are looking at the worst humanitarian crisis since the Cold War. That should send shock waves throughout the world. Senator Norris spoke about lack of media interest and coverage. What can we do to alert the international community and news agencies to the appalling situation that is developing? We have seen a certain amount of coverage but very few people would be aware that the death toll has doubled since December, which is only four months ago.

That only 20% of the promised aid has been delivered is a matter of grave concern given that this country and its people have been pretty generous in contributing to various organisations raising funds for Syria. It is most disappointing and annoying that high-profile countries and countries that are much richer than us have not met the commitments they gave.

I support Senator Norris's call for us to get information and start naming and shaming in order to get a larger percentage of the promised aid delivered. We all accept many countries are going through difficult economic times but 20% is a paltry sum.

Mr. Andrews referred to the use of chemical weapons as a red line for the US. How can we get the US to take more of an interest in the Syrian situation given that the red line has been crossed? When the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade appeared before the committee last week, he indicated that the Irish Presidency is keeping the Syrian situation on the agenda. What other emergency measures would Mr. Andrews like us to take to further highlight the situation and try to bring about an improvement? All of us want to see peace in that country but it seems to be going from bad to worse and the picture he painted today offers no grounds for optimism. What sort of dangers are GOAL staff on the ground facing on a daily basis and is the organisation seriously concerned for the people who work for it?

I thank Mr. Barry and Mr. Glasgow for meeting us. What game changer do they see happening to put an end to the hurting stalemate that currently exists? It appears the conflict will trundle on in the absence of decisive intervention and all we will see is an increased body count. The staff are operating in a war zone, which is a dangerous place to be. It will be a challenge to get them out in the event of a game changer. I commend them on going to Syria in the first place because, as Mr. Barry pointed out, few people are willing to go there. If organisations like GOAL are unwilling to act as witnesses on the ground, nobody will get the message out. I agree with others on naming and shaming those who produce eternal rounds of promises at international conferences without delivering on them, as we have seen in the context of Haiti and other disasters.

What kind of programmes does GOAL implement in Syria and other places of conflict? Is it restricted in the programmes it can implement? What kind of humanitarian programmes does it implement with people who are displaced, for example? Does it work in refugee camps.

Mr. Barry Andrews

As Mr. Glasgow was involved with the beginning of the intervention, which was prior to my appointment as CEO, I ask him to outline how we developed the programme.

Mr. Alan Glasgow

In regard to Senator Walsh's question about neighbouring countries and Lebanon, we recently attended the Syria humanitarian forum in Geneva, the seventh of these large get-togethers. The Lebanese delegation pointed out that the numbers arriving in Tripoli and northern Lebanon were the equivalent of 9 million refugees arriving in France or 22 million arriving into the United States. Everyone is aware of the figures but when they are put in those terms they give pause for thought. The situation in neighbouring countries is also catastrophic but we commend the UNHCR, with support by Irish Aid, on its efforts to provide support for these refugees. When we assessed the refugee situation in Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey in September last year, the situation was difficult but it was by no means overwhelming. This prompted us to examine our strategy of intervening internally in order to keep Syrians as close to their homes as possible rather than crossing the border. The reason for this strategy was twofold. First, GOAL always attempts to be as close to the problem as possible and, second, the situation was not as overwhelming as it has since become. The numbers of refugees in neighbouring countries are becoming very worrying.

Deputy Eric Byrne asked a follow up question on how GOAL decides who gets aid. Over many years GOAL has developed a set of targeting methodologies for the selection of beneficiaries once we make a decision to intervene in a country. We work through relief committees, which are the community structures for assisting people on the ground. We begin by establishing that nothing we are doing will make the situation worse and that our conflict assessment has been appropriate. Using the relief committees, we identify further the most vulnerable within communities. In respect of the aid we are providing in northern Idlib, we have asked the relief committees to identify widows, orphans, the disabled and the infirm. By means of finely tuned monitoring and evaluation systems developed over the years, we are able to ensure our targeting is correct.

Deputy Eric Byrne also asked about the food for peace programme, which is an unusual name. Food for peace is an instrument developed by the department of humanitarian and conflict affairs in USAID, which is the US equivalent of Irish Aid, to fund programme activity in conflict zones and places that are emerging from conflict.

Mr. Barry Andrews

Many of the questions related to the tension between respecting the sovereignty of Syria while also providing for the humanitarian protection of citizens and the international community's ability to reconcile those competing interests. As a humanitarian agency, we wish the international community could resolve that issue but we do not have an answer because it is not within our area of expertise. We see clearly that while the UN has set itself a target of reconciling that problem it appears from what has happened subsequently that, for example, responsibility to protect is not an effective instrument because the principles on which it is based cannot be discharged in these circumstances. Effectively, the UN is paralysed and cannot meet the major humanitarian needs that are emerging. The other side of that coin is the question of honouring pledges that have been made by donor countries. Senator Norris's suggestion on naming and shaming has merit and we will try to provide some assistance to the committee in that regard.

In regard to media reporting, some incredibly brave journalists have undertaken dangerous missions to front line areas which I would not visit, such as Damascus, Aleppo and Homs, and have produced superb documentaries. I commend to members Channel 4's "Dispatches" programme which aired one week ago. While media reporting at this level might not be great, certain journalists deserve commendation. When I travelled to Syria I was accompanied by representatives of independent newspapers, who were able to produce a large amount of documentary testimony to share with the Irish public. That was a useful way on our part to highlight the issues arising.

For Syria, there is no doubt that the current problems will be replaced by fresh problems after the conflict. There will be difficulties for the opposition after al-Assad. A negotiated settlement would be the best possible outcome but the danger is that when this committee meets again in September, the conflict will still be going on and the death toll will have surpassed 100,000, and most people think that is most likely. António Guterres's prediction that more than half the population of Syria will have a humanitarian need by then will probably come to pass. I am sorry I cannot answer the question on what we can do as parliamentarians. I have come out of the country as an advocate to try to bend the members' ears and get them as parliamentarians to use every opportunity and platform they have and every ear they can bend to do those things, to ensure every effort is made. Other people are doing that in other parliaments, so collectively we can make a difference. Senator Norris referred to East Timor, where Ireland made a significant difference and it does not take more than a few people to make a significant difference. I encourage the members to continue their interest in it and I thank them for their attention today.

I thank Mr. Andrews and Mr. Glasgow for briefing us on GOAL's activities and their journey into Syria from 2 to 4 April. We would love to keep in touch with you on this. The discussion is always useful and we want to keep it at the top of the agenda. We look forward to meeting you again. Thank you both for updating us on your experience in Syria. There will be other opportunities for us to talk about GOAL's activities. We will leave Mr. Andrews a bit longer in the job before we come back to him on that but obviously we will keep in touch with GOAL, which plays a very important role. We have visited some of the GOAL projects on our development aid visits, particularly the GOAL street children project. We were in Addis Ababa and saw for ourselves at first hand the fantastic work being done by GOAL there. As Mr. Andrews said, GOAL is operating in many countries so we commend him and his organisation on the work they do.

Mr. Barry Andrews

I appreciate that and welcome the opportunity to keep in touch in the future. I thank the committee for the invitation.

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