Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Jul 2014

Middle East Situation: Ambassador of Iran to Ireland

Chairman

Ambassador Kachoueian is very welcome to the committee. I also wish to welcome the deputy chef de mission, Mr. Hamid Arefipour, who is accompanying the ambassador.

I remind members, witnesses and all those in the Public Gallery to ensure their mobile phones are switched off completely for the duration of the meeting as, even on silent mode, they cause interference with the recording equipment.

In advance of hearing the ambassador's presentation, I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or body outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. If they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice that where possible they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such as way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome His Excellency, Mr. Javad Kachoueian, Ambassador of the Islamic Republic of Iran to Ireland. The ambassador has a distinguished career in his country's diplomatic service, both in Tehran and in various locations abroad. Members of the committee will be aware that Ambassador Kachoueian was only recently appointed to his current position in Dublin. While he has met with some members of the joint committee, this is his first appearance before the committee in formal session. Earlier this year, Ambassador Kachoueian paid a courtesy call to me and I was delighted to renew that relationship which existed with his predecessor. It is always good to have dialogue.

We are conscious of the various ongoing problems in the Middle East. For the past three years, there has been conflict in Syria, which unfortunately is showing no sign of being resolved. More recently, we have seen an escalation of fighting in Iraq, while the situation in Egypt continues to be a cause of concern. Perhaps more worryingly is the recent deterioration of the situation between Israel and Palestine. The tit-for-tat - apparently revenge - attacks continue to escalate daily. Almost hourly we hear of rocket attacks and air strikes, as the views of moderates on both sides appear to be ignored. Indeed, at lunchtime today, there were further reports of more people being killed in Gaza.

The Middle East crisis is obviously something that the committee has dealt with. We would certainly appeal for restraint because tit-for-tat attacks achieve nothing whatsoever. The Israelis have been very lucky that nobody was killed by the rockets going into Israel. Unfortunately, however, many people in Gaza have been killed by Israeli air attacks, which do not solve the problem that is there. This committee appeals for both sides to show restraint. We will be talking to the Israeli and Palestinian ambassadors soon to see if the situation can be resolved peacefully.

We are well aware of the role and influence Iran has in the region. Members of the committee are eagerly anticipating Ambassador Kachoueian's views on what is happening in the Middle East, including the nuclear talks concerning Iran. In addition, Ambassador Kachoueian takes a keen interest in what is happening in Syria.

The format of today's meeting is that we will hear a presentation from the ambassador before proceeding to a question and answer session with members of the committee. I call Ambassador Kachoueian to address the committee.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

Thank you very much, Chairman, honourable Deputies and Senators. In the name of God, the compassionate and merciful, I am pleased to have been invited here to exchange views on different aspects of bilateral relations, as well as important regional and international issues with the committee.

Iran attaches great importance to its relations with Ireland. The people of my country have always had good feelings towards Ireland and the Irish people. Iran and Ireland have always had good relations with each other.

It is very important that there is no negative point in our mutual relations. We hope very much that the already friendly relations between our countries will develop and deepen under our mutual efforts. Fortunately, there is much capacity and potential in our relations in different political, economic, trade, scientific and cultural fields. We share many common international policies, including the importance of the elimination of weapons of mass destruction and rejecting unilateralism and the use of military force in solving international and regional crises. We continue to co-operate with Ireland on these issues.

There is lots of potential and there are many possibilities for the two countries. The value of the annual trade in beef before the appearance of BSE, which caused the ban on the importation of Irish beef, was more than $500 million. Fortunately, the ban on the importation of Irish beef was lifted last year and the legal ground for the importation of Irish sheepmeat was also prepared. Other than meat, there are many other potential areas of trade, including IT, petrochemicals, petroleum and petroleum products, pharmaceuticals and medical devices, food and agriculture stuffs and renewable energy. Iran is a very safe country in the Middle East with a population of 77 million people. It could be a great market for Irish goods, especially in view of the fact that Irish goods, in the format of joint ventures between Iranian and Irish companies, can be re-exported to the markets of our 15 neighbouring countries, whose populations total 200 million. The current annual volume of trade between our two countries is approximately €50 million, which is by no means proportionate with the potential and the possibilities. We can easily increase our mutual annual trade to €1 billion in a year.

Iran, with its huge oil and gas resources, equivalent to 400 billion barrels, is the world's largest source of fossil energy. There are two main pillars in Iran's sustainable development program: first, securing long-term sustainable energy in Iran; and second, participation in global energy security. We are ready to co-operate on these issues as well. The population in Iran is mainly young and therefore the number of youths looking for places in universities in all fields has been increasing. Nowadays, there are 600,000 students taking part in doctorate degree entrance exams each year. Only 70,000 of them can enter universities in Iran; the rest must find universities abroad. Given the presence of a few high-ranking universities in Ireland, the two countries can work successfully in this area as well. Nevertheless, there are some obstacles, namely the long process of granting visas to foreign students, which needs to be solved. There is lots of potential for mutual cultural co-operation in the arts, including painting and film, and in exploring and rehabilitating historical monuments. Iran is among the ten leading countries internationally with regard to the presence of historical sites. There is a good potential for Iran and Ireland to expand their co-operation in the field of the tourism industry. We have already had some university and media delegations visiting Iran, namely DIT and Dublin's Griffith College, and the recent visit of some Irish journalists. A few MOUs have been signed between Irish and Iranian universities and scientific institutions.

Iran attaches specific importance to the promotion of parliamentary relations between the two countries. The Parliament, as the the main pillar of the legislative branch, has an outstanding position in the political system of Iran. Iran's parliaments have always been diverse, containing women and many ethnic minorities. It also designates five seats for religious minorities, including Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians, proportionate to their populations. The recent visit of the parliamentary delegation headed by Deputy Pat Breen, the Chairman of the joint committee, was a good event in the annals of official contacts between the two countries. The delegation had different useful and constructive negotiations with Iranian officials, including the Speaker of Parliament and the Foreign Minister. The visit received good coverage in the Iranian mass media. Following that visit, our Speaker of Parliament officially invited Deputy Seán Barrett, the Ceann Comhairle, for an official visit to Tehran. The visit will take place in September of this year. We are also working on the visit of Mr. Heravi, the head of the Iran-Ireland Parliamentary Friendship Group, to Ireland in the near future. The visit to Iran last week of a delegation from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade - Mr. Barrie Robinson, political director, and Mr. Pat Kelly, director general for the Middle East and north African region - was also a good development in our mutual relations. We are aware of Ireland's important role in EU and international and regional organisations as well as in maintaining peace and security. Irish peacekeeping forces under UNIFIL in Lebanon and the Golan Heights perform an important and useful role in that field. Like Ireland, Iran attaches great importance to the peaceful and diplomatic solution of regional and international crisis. Iran, as one of the most important and effective countries in the Middle East, is always ready to exchange views with Ireland on important regional and international issues.

I congratulate Ireland on its successful exit from the troika bailout programs. It is a good sign which indicates the recovery of the economic situation and the restoration of the economic reputation of Ireland. We hope, with the reopening of the Irish embassy in Tehran and the efforts of the two embassies, to witness the further deepening and development of our relations. Once again, I express my gratitude to the organisers of the committee for the opportunity that has been given to me to meet with the members to discuss regional and international issues.

Chairman

I thank the ambassador. He might update the committee on the current status of the nuclear talks with the group.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

The negotiations between the Iranian authorities and the five permanent members of the UN Security Council, plus Germany, continue in Vienna. Both sides are talking about how to draft the contract document. According to the strong religious fatwa from the Supreme Leader issued in 2005, any activities such as the production, stockpiling and use of weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons, are forbidden. The members witnessed during the war between Iran and Iraq that when the Iraqi side used chemical weapons we did not respond, for this reason. Based on the fatwa, as the Supreme Leader has said, the possession of nuclear weapons is a sin, and having such weapons is absolutely prohibited since they endanger the existence of humanity. The nuclear fatwa is a principled one since the existence of humanity is at stake. The fatwa is not dependent on time and circumstance. It establishes a precedent that future religious leaders may not discard.

The fatwa should be taken as an assurance that Iran has no intention of building such weapons. It can be adopted as an official United Nations document as a way to build confidence. Based on the fatwa, Iran has called for all nuclear sovereigns to create a world without nuclear weapons. We are also in favour of militaries free from nuclear weapons. Nuclear arms do not have any place in our defence structure. The nuclear issue in Iran is not about nuclear weapons. The issue is that the people of my country cannot accept others telling them not to have a peaceful nuclear programme. We want to use this technology only for peaceful purposes. We are ready to remove all concern and to respond to all questions raised by the "five plus" countries in this regard.

Chairman

Does the ambassador believe the talks are near a successful conclusion?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

We are optimistic about the recent negotiations and determined to reach a compromise with the P5+1.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I thank the ambassador for his presentation. I had an opportunity recently to meet him to be briefed on different issues.

Last week, in response to a parliamentary question, the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade indicated there has been progress in the nuclear issue and Iran is engaging fully in resolving it. Is it hoped the deadline for agreement by 20 July will be met? To my knowledge, the agreements reached in November last have been honoured.

In 2013, Ireland exported €57 million of products to Iran with €1 million of imports coming into this country from Iran. There is the potential for a substantial increase in trade. One statistic that stood out was that, prior to the imposition of sanctions, the EU was Iran’s major trading partner with trade worth €28 billion. This is now down to €6 billion while trade with China has grown dramatically and is projected to grow substantially over the next several years.

I raised the issue of human rights and the treatment of minority groups in Iran with the ambassador’s predecessor at this committee before. The Baha'i community in Ireland has brought to my attention serious issues concerning the treatment of some of its members in Iran. There is a need for the human rights dialogue between the EU and Iran to resume. It is an issue that the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade raised with his Iranian counterpart some time ago. I am also concerned, to put it mildly, about the report by the Iran Human Rights Documentation Centre that 624 people were executed in Iran in 2013. The number officially announced by the Iranian Government was 334. There should be no executions whatsoever. The number of those executed in 2014 to date is estimated at 250 people. None of us has words to describe that type of conduct. No one has the right to take life. It is an issue that we need to have the full facts on and address.

Chairman

We will stay with the issue of human rights for this question and answer session.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

I thank the ambassador. I was a member of the foreign affairs delegation which visited Iran in January. The human rights issue was an important matter for everyone on that delegation. I acknowledge the frank and open discussions we had with everyone we met there on the death penalty, treatment of the Baha'i community and prisoners’ access to legal representation and medical treatment. What progress has been made on these issues? The death penalty was explained to me there but I am against it in all circumstances.

Iran could be a stronger voice on humanitarian issues in the Syrian conflict. We know food deprivation is being used as a weapon of war in the conflict. Iran could be a much stronger voice on that issue because of its influence.

Chairman

We can come back to that separately. I want to deal with human rights in Iran, internally.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I welcome the ambassador and his colleague. To what extent has the potential for trade between Iran and Ireland been explored and developed since the last general election in Iran and the obvious improvement in its relations with the West?

On the nuclear issue-----

Chairman

I will come back to Deputy Durkan on that. We will deal with human rights first or otherwise we will be overlapping.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Academics in Iran complained about the erosion of their human rights, imprisonment without trial and the lack of access to legal aid and advice. To what extent has this been alleviated?

Deputy Eric Byrne

I want to get into the more substantive issues, so if the Chairman bears with me on human rights issues alone-----

Chairman

Will the Deputy just stay with human rights?

Deputy Eric Byrne

I want to move into the area of the whole international role played by Iran.

We come from a Western liberal democracy while the ambassador comes from an Islamic state, meaning there are significant cultural differences between us. However, there are basic norms which we all wish to apply to human beings. The sight of the Iranian authorities hanging homosexuals from the jibs of cranes is the most obvious obscenity of the abuse of people’s human rights. The discrimination against women with the implementation of a dress code by the fanatical Islamist police runs counter to what we believe is a woman’s human right to dress according to her choice.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I welcome the ambassador. Last Friday, I was one of 120,000 people at an Iranian opposition rally in Villepinte in Paris. I was amazed at the civilised and good conduct at this rally, attended by the representatives of 69 other countries, including Rudi Giuliani, Ingrid Betancourt-----

Chairman

Does the Deputy have a question?

Deputy Peter Mathews

I was told by people attending the rally about their relations who suffered at the hands of the fundamentalist regime in Iran and that 120,000 people have been executed since 1980 there.

Chairman

I just want a question.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Pregnant women, imprisoned because of mild political dissent, lost their babies. To have so many Iranians from around the world attend a rally-----

Chairman

Can I have a question, please?

Deputy Peter Mathews

What has the ambassador got to say to that?

Chairman

I call Senator Walsh.

Senator Jim Walsh

There has been a significant move in the international community toward Iran with people looking to it to play a constructive role in the Middle East, a development which I welcome. It is important Iran focuses on human rights issues. There is a disparity of culture but we must respect the ambassador’s culture.

However, there are some fundamentals in human rights that are universal. They would certainly be about freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. In particular, there are concerns with regard to people involved in opposition politics not being allowed to articulate their viewpoint or freely participate in the political situation. Having a robust democratic system would, ultimately, be to the betterment of Iran.

The issue of capital punishment has been mentioned by some of my colleagues. It is not just a problem for Iran but is a problem in the US and various other countries across the globe, including Russia. It is a very significant human rights issue now upon which an increasing focus is being brought. Iran also executes minors, which would be very unusual even among countries that have capital punishment. Will the ambassador comment on that?

The other issue is freedom of religion, which is often spoken about but not observed as often even, unfortunately, in parts of Europe. Apostasy is a capital crime in Iran which seems to be an appalling breach of a person's human rights. We all saw the situation with Mariam Ibrahim in Sudan recently but there have also been situations in Iran. This committee argued vigorously with the ambassador's predecessor with regard to Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani who was subjected to incarceration for quite a period because of his religious beliefs. Given Iran's leadership in the region, anything it does should have an influence upon the thinking in the Middle East, which does need to change. There are aspects of Iran's conservative policies with which people might not have difficulties but there are also aspects which are very oppressive and which, in this instance, would be seen as breaches of human rights.

Chairman

We will stick with human rights.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

I thank the members for their questions. First, President Rouhani has introduced a charter of citizens' rights in which the rights of all minorities have been mentioned and emphasised. Like other governments, we have a duty to promote human rights in our country. We believe that human rights must be promoted in all countries. Human rights dialogue should be based on mutual respect and can be a universal subject when only human rights are considered rather than political considerations. The people of my country say that those who do not allow the purchase of medicine needed for patients in Iran have no right to comment on human rights. The western attitude towards the human rights issue has become political behaviour and is based on double standards. I have many examples I can show the committee. In respect of the worst violator of human rights in the Middle East, the Israeli regime regularly violates human rights in Palestine. Some of the rules and regulations in our country are based on Islamic law and cannot be changed. We are not happy about the number of executions in Iran. Most capital punishment in Iran is performed in respect of major drug traffickers who are not only a threat to Iran but to the whole world. We could reduce the number of executions by 90% by allowing the transit of drugs into Europe. Until now, more than 4,000 Iranian soldiers were killed by the drug traffickers trying to traffic drugs into Europe from Iran.

Recently, our foreign Minister told EU High Representative Ashton that we are ready to resume dialogue on human rights. We all always ready to talk about human rights with all countries, particularly the EU. Unfortunately, after that, a resolution issue was issued by the European Parliament to postpone this negotiation.

Chairman

Does the ambassador know why instructions came from the EU to delay human rights talks?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

We are ready to discuss. They are very important subjects. There is a judicial procedure in Iran in which the victim's family is asked to avoid the death sentence for murderers. According to Islam, there is a thing called Qisas where if a person kills somebody, the family of the victim can get revenge. However, we ask the families of murder victims to forgive and, fortunately, we have been very successful. Many families forgive murderers. This is very important.

A Senator asked about the Baha'is. I want to clarify that according to our constitution, there are four official religions in Iran, namely, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism. However, there is no form of discrimination and violation of rights as a result of being Baha'i. Baha'is are not deprived of education or put on trial solely because of being Baha'is. The Baha'is who are in prison have committed illegal acts, as have Muslims in prison. There is no difference between Muslims and Baha'is in this respect. Somebody mentioned the recent demonstration in France. I think he is talking about the Mujahedin-e Khalq Organization, MKO.

Deputy Eric Byrne

The ambassador saved me asking a question because I was curious as to what demonstration was taking place in France.

Deputy Peter Mathews

It was not a demonstration. It was a very peaceful rally.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

Members of the MKO, which is a terrorist group, have assassinated dozens of civilians in different Iranian cities over the past number of years. Assassinations by this group include those of a president and a prime minister - many innocent people. It is unfortunate that the name of this group has been removed from the EU list of terrorist groups. This group also collaborated with Saddam Hussein during the war with Iraq. In co-operation with Saddam Hussein, it killed many members of the Iranian authorities. It mentioned that it accepted assassinations in its newspapers and statements. Unfortunately, we witness terrorist activity in the entire region. This group accepted the assassinations of innocent people in Iran and co-operation with Saddam Hussein during the war against the Iranian people for which the Iranian people are very angry. It collaborated with Saddam Hussein to kill innocent people in Kurdistan. This group was also mentioned as a terrorist group by the US. All European countries know about this activity. Unfortunately, instead of fighting against terrorism, the EU omits the name of this group from its list of terrorist groups.

Senator Jim Walsh

As of last year, the MKO was also removed from the US list of terrorist groups.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

Two days ago, a spokesman from the foreign ministry of France said that this group was a terrorist group and that France has no relations with it.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Through the Chair, has the ambassador met Maryam Rajavi?

Chairman

Deputy Mathews should let the ambassador finish and I will come back to him.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

France officially rejected this group and declared that it was a terrorist group and that France had no relations with it. It is clear that this group is a terrorist group.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Has the ambassador met Madame Maryam Rajavi in person?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

We cannot meet with a terrorist.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I invite you to meet her.

Chairman

It is not Deputy Mathews' prerogative to invite anybody to meet anybody.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I suggest it, then.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I wish to follow up on a question raised by the Chairman. I understand the EU-Iran human rights dialogue was ended by Iran in 2004. If I understand the ambassador correctly, he indicated that the problem in resuming the talks is on the EU side. If that is the case, I will table parliamentary questions to identify the difficulties arising for the European Union in resuming dialogue. Human rights are a major concern for all of us and we would be glad to do whatever we can do at EU level to encourage the resumption of talks. What is the obstacle from the point of view of the European Union?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

We are ready to restart the negotiations with the EU and EU member states on human rights, as our Minister of Foreign Affairs has indicated to the EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Ms Ashton. Unfortunately, the EU has issues in this regard and, as a result, we think the time is not right to restart negotiations now. They are postponed but we are ready to resume negotiations on human rights.

Senator Jim Walsh

I asked about freedom of religion and the fact that not only is apostasy a crime, but that people who change religion are subject to capital punishment. That is a significant breach and it should not be regarded as a cultural issue.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

There are certain rules and regulations in Iran on the basis of religious subjects. We cannot change them according to Islamic rules and regulations.

Chairman

We will move on to another subject.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

Nobody is executed or subject to capital punishment for his or her belief.

Senator Jim Walsh

May I ask a brief question?

Chairman

I want to give Senator Mullins an opportunity to contribute.

Senator Michael Mullins

The major concern is about the level of executions. What are the crimes for which a person in Iran could be executed?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

Nearly 90% of them are for drug trafficking. Prior to the occupation of Afghanistan, narcotic drug production was approximately 200 tonnes but now it is more than 8,000 tonnes - 40 times bigger. They want to transit these drugs through Iran and into Europe. We need international co-operation against traffickers. It is very dangerous. Imagine, for example, what it would mean to deal with 8,000 tonnes of drugs if Afghanistan was Ireland's neighbour.

Chairman

I will allow a brief supplementary question from Deputy Mathews but I do not want a Second Stage speech.

Deputy Peter Mathews

My first question is -----

Chairman

I said one question.

Deputy Peter Mathews

In regard to drugs, I was informed by an Iranian citizen who has lived in Ireland for many years and who visits his relations in Iran that the drug problem is due to police corruption. Between 1 million and 2 million young Iranian men are going around dazed with drugs.

Chairman

We will allow the ambassador to comment.

Deputy Peter Mathews

That is my first question. The second -----

Chairman

Sorry, I said one question. I call Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

I represent a constituency that has suffered more devastation through drugs than most others but I do not believe that capital punishment of those who are involved in dealing is the answer to the problem. We need to investigate alternatives. I am aware of the number of Iranian policemen and officials who have been killed in the course of the drug war but executing that number of people, many of whom are probably lower down the chain, is not the answer. From my experience with drug dealers in this country, I am sure many of them got involved in these activities to feed their own habits. I suggest that Iran should investigate alternatives to capital punishment.

Chairman

I ask Senator Walsh to ask a brief question because I want to move on to the issue of Syria.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I am a member of this committee but I have been restricted to two questions about human rights.

Chairman

You will be given an opportunity.

Deputy Eric Byrne

A non-member of the committee has taken more than 15 minutes of our time.

Chairman

Deputy Eric Byrne will be next.

Senator Jim Walsh

The ambassador has said that apostasy is a crime punishable by death under Sharia law. Can he cite where in the Koran that is set out?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

As I pointed out earlier, nobody is executed for his or her beliefs. Baha'i is not acceptable as a religion under our constitution but no Baha'i has been executed for his or her beliefs. It is similar for others. The majority of cases of capital punishment in Iran involve drug traffickers. Under Islamic law, the family of the victim can avenge a killing. To solve this problem, we have developed a procedure for working with the families concerned to forgive murderers. Fortunately, it has been very successful thus far and many families have forgiven those who murdered their relatives. We are also trying to find other ways of reducing the rate of capital punishment. Nobody is happy with the number of executions in my country. If the international community can help Iran to prevent narcotic smuggling from Afghanistan, I am sure the number of executions can be reduced.

Chairman

We will move on to Syria because a number of members want to raise questions about this country. We will then allow other questions.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I have a question.

Chairman

The Deputy will have an opportunity but I wish to deal with Syria beforehand because it is a topical issue.

Deputy Eric Byrne

We could discuss Syria, Iraq and other parts of the world, like Nigeria.

Chairman

We will also deal with these issues.

Deputy Eric Byrne

We cannot be segmenting our discussions around Syria and human rights.

Chairman

It is much easier because we can get through the issues arising more quickly.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I will ask a bunch of questions and then I will shut up but I have to be broad because the international remit of Iran is fundamentally broad.

Chairman

I would like to include Syria because we are dealing with the Middle East.

Deputy Eric Byrne

That is right. I welcome the ambassador. He has big boots to fill because we had great respect for his predecessor.

Chairman

I ask the Deputy to be conscious that a vote has been called.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I am delighted to hear that Deputy Mathews, who is not a member of this committee, has just come back from Paris, where I am sure he learned all about camp Ashraf and the occupants of that camp.

Chairman

We are not speaking about Deputy Mathews.

Deputy Eric Byrne

The ambassador has just arrived and he is more than welcome. He must have been delighted to read in the newspapers that Ireland is the country in the world that is most faithful to the values of the Koran. This finding comes from a study conducted by an Iranian colleague of the ambassador who occupies a high ranking position in a wonderful university, George Washington University. Those of us who are secularists might find this difficult to understand.

When the ambassador was addressing the issue of human rights, he noted that Islamic law cannot be changed. I consider Iran as a key player in the world. There are conflicts right across the Arab, Muslim and Christian world, and Iran plays an important role. I refer to the Middle East, Israel, Iraq and Syria. Given the ambassador's strict interpretation of Islamic law and the laws of Iran, how do we interpret Islamic law through the Koran? For example, Saudi Arabia, which is another might world power, has a different interpretation. The Islamic state of Iraq and the Levant, which has just been announced, claims religious authority over all Muslims under its supreme leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

He will have a different interpretation of Islamic law. How many of these conflicts are based on religion rather than politics? How many of those who are dying as a result of the activities of Boko Haram and al-Shabaab in countries such as Nigeria, Mali, Mauritania, Kenya, the Central African Republic, Sudan and Egypt are the victims of a religious war, rather than a political struggle as these conflicts are sometimes interpreted? How does the ambassador explain this terrible blood-letting between Shia and Sunni to people from the west who come from liberal democratic, Christian societies?

I am delighted the Ceann Comhairle will visit Iran because the more interaction our two countries have, the more we will understand each other.

On the issue of fundamental human rights, how can Iran claim its interpretation of the Koran is correct and justifies stoning people to death, executing gay and lesbian and transgender people and so forth?

The challenge is to define what role Iran is playing in the world? Is it assisting or undermining stability? We spoke about the conflict in and around Israel and the funding and training of Hamas and Hezbollah. Are these progressive forces? Should they be supported or is Iran playing out an international world struggle for supremacy in the world of Islam? It may take a while to answer my questions but I ask the ambassador to do his best.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

First of all, there is a difference between Islam and extremism.

Chairman

I need to suspend the meeting to allow Deputies attend a vote in the Dáil. This will give the ambassador a few minutes to prepare his answers. I appeal to members to return immediately after the division for further questions.

Sitting suspended at 3.25 p.m. and resumed at 3.35 p.m.

Chairman

The ambassador may want to answer Deputy Eric Byrne's questions, and other members have questions on the conflicts in Syria and the Middle East, particularly the Israel-Palestine question.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

Deputy Eric Byrne was correct that some groups have got the wrong understanding of Sharia law. In my country there are also different ideas about some verses of the Koran. Unfortunately, groups in Syria and Iraq misuse Islam for their objectives. We are trying our best to find ways to reduce capital punishment through the good interpretation of Islam. We are unhappy about the number of executions in Iran. I am sure the delegation to Iran had a good discussion about this with the brother of the girl in Iran, and discussed the execution and the issue of the Baha'i with the Iranian authorities and have had a response about it.

We should be careful because, unfortunately, some groups such as ISIS, also known as DAISH, try to misuse Islam for their political objectives. Unfortunately, it can absorb many young people to fight in Syria and Iraq. Many times we cautioned the authorities in Europe to be careful not to help those groups in Syria. Unfortunately, they did not understand the groups in the region, so they helped them when they were in Syria. Now, after Syria, they have gone to Iraq and are trying to reach the other countries in the region. Today, our deputy foreign Minister is in Kuwait because there is concern there about ISIS. ISIS does not recognise Kuwait as a state. We are trying to work with all our neighbouring countries to control ISIS in the region. ISIS assassinated Sunni clergymen in Mosul last week, and they prayed the Friday prayers there.

Although, unfortunately, much of the mass media has portrayed this as a war between Shia and Sunni, it is incorrect. ISIS has assassinated Sunni people, and some Sunni clergymen in different countries have criticised ISIS and condemned their activities. I want to clarify the situation. We must be careful. We are witnessing two important challenges in our region, namely, extremism and terrorism. It is necessary for all international communities and members of the committee to help the Iraqi Government to fight terrorism. They want to continue their activities in other countries throughout the region. Unfortunately, some countries have helped these groups before, but now they understand that they made a major mistake. The foreign minister of Iraq, Mr. Hoshyar Zebari, is a Kurdish Sunni. In an official letter to the United Nations Secretary General, which has been issued to the Security Council, he has asked the United Nations and all its members to fight against al-Qaeda and ISIS. In the letter, Mr. Zebari officially asked the United Nations to prevent the terrorists from receiving support. The war is not between Shia and Sunni. In Iran, many Sunnis live peacefully with Shias, and many Shias live peacefully in Saudi Arabia and other countries. Fortunately, in principle there are no differences between Shia and Sunni except for a very small few interpretations. However, unfortunately, some countries are using terrorism to change the political system. This is the real problem of our region.

Deputy Brendan Smith

Unfortunately, with so much conflict elsewhere in the world, the tragedy of the Syrian crisis, with such terrible loss of life, does not get nearly as much attention as it deserves. Iran's support for President al-Assad's regime is a source of concern to us, given the regime's behaviour over the years and the horror, terror and loss of life inflicted on so many of its citizens. Could the ambassador refer to it, please?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

What happened in the Middle East and north Africa was the beginning of a popular revolution, but an extremist movement with regional and trans-regional support tried to change the direction. My country welcomed the recent presidential election in Syria and thinks it is the beginning of a new phase of stability and national reconciliation. We very much hope that other countries will make necessary a force for the assistance of the refugees as well as the reconstruction process in Syria. On 1 June, our parliament organised a one-day conference on Syria for heads of parliamentary committees on foreign policy. The Chairman of this committee, Deputy Pat Breen, was invited, but unfortunately he could not be there.

The aim of holding the conference was to attempt to stop the massacre of the oppressed Syrian people and the destruction of resources and to prevent the expansion of terrorism and extremism.

The Deputy is right that we help the Syrian Government. Up to now, we have given more than $6.2 million to the Syrian people in medicine, food and so on. Unfortunately, we are under severe sanctions, but in spite of that, we think the Syrian people need food and medicine and we want all countries to help them in this regard.

We think the activities of extremist groups are the main threat to peace and security of the region and the world. Members of these groups will return to their home countries, becoming a potential threat to the security of those countries. They will be able to organise other incidents similar to the attacks of 11 September 2001. I have heard more than 1,500 Britons went to Iraq and people travelled there from other European countries. We should be careful because they will be educated, they will learn how to fight and to make bombs, and when they return to their countries, unfortunately, there may be weaknesses in the security of those countries.

The fight against violent extremism, sectarian conflict and terrorism is Iran's main objective. In Syria, we are in contact with almost all parties, including Opposition parties, except for armed groups. If those groups get into power in Syria, we are sure they will assassinate the Christians there but, fortunately, the Christians in Syria now have good relations with Assad and the Syrian Government. We cannot impose democracy on countries by military force. Democracy is a process that needs time. Unfortunately, some Western countries misuse the situations in Iraq and Syria. I do not want to name them. The doctrine is to create problems and to control them for political motivation.

The UN Secretary General recently expressed disappointment about the Security Council's failure to reach a consensus on finding a political solution to the Syrian crisis and, therefore, he has urged Syria's neighbouring countries to block their borders to prevent weapons smuggling into Syria. Doubtless, such measures shall prove a positive step towards preventing the expansion of the phenomenon of terrorism. We believe that all parties must be involved in the government of Syria. Iraq, Bahrain and Egypt are the same.

Deputy Seán Crowe

I welcome the ambassador. With regard to the Syrian conflict, does he believe a military solution can be achieved in the region?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

We do not think a military solution is a good way to deal with the problems of the region. From the beginning in Syria, we told them we had to find a political or diplomatic solution to the crisis but, unfortunately, those who do not know about the reality of these groups have given military support and money to groups fighting the Syrian regime. These people were educated and learned how to fight and they have now gone to Iraq. After Iraq, they went to other countries. Unfortunately, the Syrian people were mentioned, but it was not them. These people come from different countries from Syria, but in some countries they were Syrians. Some countries want to use the terrorists to change the political system, and it is the same in Iraq. Recently, in Mosul, more than 1 million people participated in the Iraqi election. The majority were Sunnis, and this shows that the people of Iraq accepted the government but, unfortunately, after ISIS went into the cities, the people were frightened by them. Last week, ISIS assassinated a Sunni clergyman in Mosul who was not ready to collaborate with them.

We should be very careful. It is not to the benefit of the entire international community to use terrorism to change the political system. This is the main issue in Syria and Iraq, and perhaps in future in other countries. We should let people exercise democracy. Recently we witnessed democracy in Iraq but, unfortunately, some countries do not like to see democracy there and they are trying to destroy the Iraqi system. My government officially decried this. We supported the unity of Iraq and we are against the disintegration of Iraq. We talked with the old groups there: the Kurds, Sunnis and Shias. Fortunately, we have very good relations with all of them and we try our best to maintain unity in Iraq.

Senator Jim Walsh

I have three questions. The ambassador mentioned that we share many common international policies, including the importance of the elimination of weapons of mass destruction. When I visited the UN last year, Iran voted against the arms trade treaty. This relates to small arms, which have caused a great deal of devastation, particularly in his region but also in parts of Africa. Ireland supported it. That position does not sit with our sharing common international policies.

The ambassador referred to the protection of Christians in Syria under the Assad regime. This was also true of the Hussein regime in Iraq, under which Christians and other minorities were protected. Once the Shia took control of Iraq, many Christians had to leave and some were murdered. What does that say about Islam and a policy of ethnic cleansing in countries where Christians have lived for more than 2,000 years? What is the psyche of Islamists that causes this to happen? The ambassador will agree that Christians were much safer under the brutal regimes of dictators who were not popular globally or within their countries.

The former Iranian President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, spoke about the obliteration of Israel. What is the position of the current administration on that? We, in my party, and people generally in Ireland have taken a position of supporting the Palestinians' calls for a homeland, which is very justifiable. We have also condemned the atrocities committed by organisations, such as Hamas, and also by the Israeli security forces which have been equally savage in the way they have retaliated on innocent civilians. However, we would strongly hold the view that any resolution of that conflict has to accept the existence and protection of Israeli citizens and borders once they are agreed.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

What is the ambassador's view on what is happening? In Gaza there are dreadful casualties at the moment. Last week, we informally met the Israeli ambassador. There seems to be no impetus for a negotiated peace.

Regardless of the political situation in Syria, I ask that the Iranian Government, because it has influence, to ensure that food is not used as a weapon of war and that food gets through to all civilian populations.

My third question on the political sphere relates to the Kurdish people. Kurdish people fall in to the category of people over history who have been very badly deprived of a homeland. What is happening now in Iraq is a Kurdish state. I spoke to somebody who had been in Erbil and who talked about the difference in that area, the infrastructure and the work that has been going on there. What is the percentage of Kurdish people living in Iran?

Deputy Peter Mathews

Is Iran selling arms to Syria at the moment? Why does Iran's leadership, under the Khameneis effectively, not consider separating state from religion so that equal rights can be honoured as between peoples? How wealthy are Ayatollah Khamenei and his sons? I have heard estimates of at least $50 billion or $60 billion.

Fatwas are decrees. We are not used to the idea of decrees in this country; we have referendums where the people decide on matters that affect social policy.

Chairman

That question relating to the wealth of the Ayatollah is not relevant to the debate so the ambassador does not need to answer it.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I think it is.

Chairman

It is not really.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I think it hugely relevant. President Putin's wealth is mentioned in international discussions.

Chairman

We do not mention people's wealth unless it is-----

Deputy Peter Mathews

I think it is important because it reflects power.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

On weapons of mass destruction, as I mentioned, Iran is against any weapons of mass destruction. In this regard we have always supported a Middle East free of the nuclear weapons. We asked all countries to remove their weapons of mass destruction because many innocent people die when one country is using weapons of mass destruction.

The Senator mentioned the control of Shia in Iraq and the effect on some Christians in Iraq. Fortunately, Islam wants Muslims to respect the other religions. Many Christians live in Iraq. The Senator's colleague visited Iraq. The Muslim Iran has the best of relations with the Christians. They have their church, education and work. During the war between Iran and Iraq, many Christians voluntarily went to the war and were martyred. We have to respect other religions. In Iran, for each 150,000 persons there is one representative, but for the Christians and Jewish people, it is one for 25,000 persons. Through this procedure we let these minorities have representation in parliament. If we applied simple democracy for any person who obtained more votes, we would not witness any representative for the Jewish or Christian in our parliament. However, we find some solution to let them have representation in our parliament for defence of rights.

We also have very good relations with Armenia. If Iran wants strategic friends, I say that Armenia is our strategic friend.

Senator Jim Walsh

What about Azerbaijan?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

Also, we have good relations with all neighbours, but our relations at the moment with Armenia are excellent. During some problem in history, many Armenians emigrated to Iran. They made their church and the others. Perhaps because of the bad weather the Chairman could not find time to go to the east front. If he went to the east front he would witness very beautiful churches and many Christians live there peacefully. Some of the problems in our regions do not relate to the Islam. Unfortunately, there is some political motivation behind it. In Syria, there have been very good relations between Christians and Muslims.

I believe there is some misunderstanding about the Ahmadinejad remark. He said that if Israel continued its policy, automatically it may be removed. As can been seen today in the Middle East - in Gaza and elsewhere - we offer some solution for the problem in this regard. First, we did not recognise Israel as a legitimate government because we cannot recognise occupation. I am sure the members understand the meaning of occupation. At least they understand we cannot recognise occupation. The problem we witness today is from this policy - from occupation. If at that time the international community had supported the Palestinians, we would not have the situation we witness today.

Chairman

How does the ambassador react to people who say that Iran is supplying missiles to Hamas? That view is out there. Would he ask Hamas to refrain from putting the rockets into Israel and for Israel to refrain from firing into Gaza?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

We mentioned-----

Deputy Eric Byrne

What is Iran's current position vis-à-vis the recognition or otherwise of Israel? Are Iran and Hamas-----

Chairman

Let the ambassador answer the question.

Deputy Eric Byrne

-----singing off the same hymn sheet?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

As I mentioned, we did not recognise Israel. This policy now is alive in my country. We supported Hamas and Hezbollah, which are now part of the political system in Palestine and Lebanon. However, support does not mean selling weapons to them. We did not sell weapons to them, but we supported-----

Chairman

Did Iran support them with money to buy weapons?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

Financially, we supported because they needed medicine and food, as Hezbollah needed during the time of the war between Lebanon and Israel. We supported, but not to buy the missiles, as we supported the Syrian Government. We only give them the medicine and food. As we declared today to the Iraqi Government, we are ready to help the Iraqi Government in fighting against terrorism, occupation and extremism. Up to now the Iraqi Government has not asked us for military help.

Chairman

So Iran does not give weapons to Hezbollah or Hamas?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

No.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Does Syria?

Deputy Eric Byrne

Does Iran formally recognise the State of Israel?

Chairman

He answered that already.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

We do not recognise it.

Chairman

The ambassador already said that.

Deputy Eric Byrne

You do not or you do?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

No, we do not recognise it.

Deputy Eric Byrne

You do not?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

No.

Chairman

He has answered that already.

Deputy Eric Byrne

That is fair enough.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

We cannot recognise occupations. This is our main and principal policy in the world.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Does the ambassador think that is the solution to the complexities of the-----

Chairman

Hold on now, Deputy Byrne.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Does the ambassador think it is a good strategy-----

Chairman

Deputy Byrne, please.

Deputy Eric Byrne

-----in the Middle East-----

Chairman

Deputy Byrne, please.

Deputy Eric Byrne

-----that Iran does not recognise the state of Israel and Hamas wants to see it wiped off the face of the Earth?

Chairman

Deputy Byrne, please.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

The Kurds in Iraq were mentioned. We sent a message and contacted Mr. Barzani in Iraq and asked him to think wisely and be careful. We also informed the Kurds that we are against the disintegration of Iraq. The unity of Iraq is very important for peace and security in the entire region. We should all support the Iraqi Government and Mr. al-Maliki in the fight against terrorism and extremism. Many terrorists are going to the country and we asked Mr. Barzani to please pay attention to the situation.

Chairman

The ambassador has answered most of the questions.

Deputy Seán Crowe

The ambassador spoke about the centrality and importance of his country with regard to conflicts in the region. How many refugees has Iran taken in from Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq? Does Iran get international support in this regard? When we were in Tehran we spoke about the drug situation, particularly drugs coming from Afghanistan. At one stage there was an agreement between the European Union, Iran and other countries in the region on drug smuggling. This agreement has fallen apart and one of the reasons given by the Iranian Minister for Foreign Affairs was that drug smugglers are executed in Iran. Is there potential to have co-operation again between international players in the region, particularly the European Union? How does the ambassador see this developing in the future? When we were there we were told the poppy crop in the region had quadrupled. Much of it goes through Iran but there are other corridors also. People in Europe and other regions are concerned it will end up on the streets. We already see drugs getting cheaper in Dublin. I am interested to hear the ambassador's response.

With regard to the Palestinian situation, many calls have been made for restraint from all sides, which is usual when there is conflict. Does the ambassador agree there is no equity of response with regard to what happens in the region? There is no equality in what is happening between Hamas and the Israelis or between the Palestinians and Israel. This in itself is part of the problem which needs to be resolved. The US Government has tried to initiate talks. How important does the ambassador see the role of the European Union in being engaged in discussions to bring meaningful dialogue and a peaceful outcome to the difficulties in the region?

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

I thank the Deputy for his questions. Iran has more than 3 million Afghan refugees. Unfortunately we do not get help from the international community. The majority of them have been educated in Iran, they have married and mix with members of the Iranian community and they work in Iran. We had many discussions with the international community about getting help, but unfortunately we did not obtain help.

With regard to co-operation between the EU and Iran on narcotics, prior to 2003 I was the director of the first European department of the foreign ministry and I was a member of the Iranian delegation which negotiated with the EU. The three topics we discussed at the time were refugees, how to combat narcotics and the Middle East. Discussions have resumed to find solutions to the benefit of the region and the international community. The drug traffickers in Afghanistan told us to give them a short transit route and if we did so they would not distribute narcotics in Iran. The aim of these groups is to distribute drugs in Europe and not Iran. We could not agree with this so we fought against them. Unfortunately, we did not receive any help from European countries. The gangs have high-quality technology to fight against our soldiers on the border.

A number of years ago our leader made a suggestion on the situation in Palestine. He said Palestinians should be allowed return to their homes and a referendum should be held to select a government for the region, under the auspices of the United Nations. More than 4 million Palestinians are in different countries and they want to return home. The international community has a responsibility in this regard to help the Palestinians. For every one Israeli killed more than two or three dozen Palestinians are killed in a bombardment. This is not fair. Unfortunately, the situation in Palestine has created terrorism, which has also been experienced in other areas in the region such as Syria and Iraq and perhaps will happen in other countries. Kuwaiti officials are very concerned. Some countries may have helped these groups but now they are frightened and very concerned about ISIS because it has declared an Islamic government, which means it wants to control the entire region. Terrorism is very dangerous for the peace and security of the region and for the world. The Iraqi Government has asked the international community for help.

I believe the time is right to help the Iraqi Government in its fight against terrorism. Without this help for the Iraqi Government, there will be many problems for the international community in the future. We believe the response to the Iraqi Prime Minister's letter to the United Nations Security Council should be positive.

Chairman

I thank the ambassador for his responses. Our policy is to recognise a two-state solution. We believe a two-state solution is the best way forward for peace in the region. We recognise that Israel must protect its borders and also recognise that the Palestinians should have a state. We believe that in terms of the peace process a two-state solution is the way forward. Obviously, the situation is difficult. We appeal to Israel to discontinue its attacks on Gaza. This is extremely important in the context of the number of innocent people being killed as a result of those attacks. We also appeal, perhaps through the ambassador, to Hamas not to fire rockets into Israel. Israel and Palestine are attacking each other on a tit-for-tat basis. Something terrible could arise out of that, such as occurred during Operation Cast Lead.

On the stalled human rights talks, I understand that a precondition of Iran in relation to those talks is that human rights cannot be discussed with any organisation except the European Union. In other words, they cannot be discussed in the United Nations. We appeal to all sides to return to the table on the issue of human rights.

I thank the ambassador for this open and frank discussion on Iran's political activities in the Middle East. Obviously, we hope that a solution will be found to the nuclear issue. We welcome the trade links between Ireland and Iran. However, we believe there is more that can be done by Iran in relation to human rights and that it can play a greater part in bringing an end to the Syrian crisis which has caused the deaths of thousands of people. We look forward to future dialogue with the ambassador and wish him every success in his capacity as Iranian ambassador to Ireland.

H.E. Mr. Javad Kachoueian

I thank the Chairman and committee members for their many good questions on Palestine. I would like to add that Iran has respected all decisions taken by the Palestinians. I thank the committee for this opportunity to present to it.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.15 p.m. and adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 July 2014.