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Joint Committee on Gender Equality díospóireacht -
Thursday, 26 May 2022

Recommendations of the Citizens’ Assembly on Gender Equality: Discussion (Resumed)

Before we begin, members now have the option of being physically present in the committee room or may join via Microsoft Teams from their Leinster House offices. Members may not participate in the meeting from outside of the parliamentary precincts. If joining on Teams, I ask members to mute their microphones when not speaking and use the raise-hand function to indicate. I ask members to note that in order to limit the risk of spreading Covid-19, the Oireachtas Service encourages all members, visitors and witnesses to continue to wear face masks when moving around the campus and when in close proximity to others, and be respectful of other people's physical space. They are also asked to adhere to public health advice.

Before we go any further, our Chair, Deputy Ivana Bacik, cannot be with us today. She has Covid. We wish her a speedy recovery.

Today we are having the first of our meetings on the recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly on care and social protection. I welcome our witnesses, Dr. Ursula Barry of UCD, a member of the expert group to the Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality, who is joining us on Teams, Dr. Emily Murphy, senior researcher, health inequalities, the Think-tank for Action on Social Change, TASC, and Professor Mary Murphy, Maynooth University social sciences institute, and thank them for their time here today.

I have an important notice on parliamentary privilege. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her, them or it identifiable. Participants in the committee meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that the constitutional protections afforded to those participating from within the parliamentary precincts do not extend to them. No clear guidance can be given on whether or the extent to which participation is covered by the absolute privilege of a statutory nature.

I call on Dr. Barry to make her opening statement.

Dr. Ursula Barry

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it. I wish good health to Ivana that she will soon be back in place.

The theme for my opening statement is about putting care at the centre of Irish society and what that would involve.

The care economy is central to every discussion on gender equality in Ireland. This is primarily because there is a significant care penalty, mainly affecting women, with negative effects on women's level of unpaid work, income from paid work, career development and entitlements to social protection.

Everyone, at different stages of life, cares for others or has care needs provided by others. Care is part of all our lives at some point. Care is essential work encompassing the social infrastructure on which our societies are built. It includes looking after the physical, social, psychological, emotional, and developmental needs of one person or more. It is also true to say that care and the economy are intertwined and care is increasingly recognised as a significant economic issue. In practice, economic relations influence the quantity and quality of care provided in society and the care systems through which it is organised but the care economy is not valued, or is seriously and systematically undervalued, both on our island and also at a global level.

Demographic change, economic crisis and the Covid-19 pandemic have put care more centrally on the current policy agenda. Unfortunately, it is also quick to fall off the agenda. For example, the EU Covid-19 recovery plan, which was allocated a significant amount of funding in the aftermath of the Covid pandemic, has allocated 30% of its expenditure to the digital economy, a further 30% of expenditure is allocated to the green economy but there is no ring-fenced allocation to the care economy. Ireland's submission on the recovery plan pays scant attention to care.

Applying a gender equality perspective on the economy and society means placing the care economy at its centre. When that happens mainstream assumptions about economic activity and economic well-being are challenged. There are key assumptions which are reflected in the United Nations system of measuring economic activity that all of countries adhere to and that determine how economic activity is measured and not measured, both in Ireland and internationally.

Under this global system, the measurement of GNP and GDP is based on market economic activity, that is, activity that passes through the market and, therefore, carries a price. This model of economic activity does not recognise interdependence, through which much of our economic activity is organised. It also casts dependency in a negative light.

Within mainstream economics, "value" is used to refer to anything that has a price in the marketplace. In this mainstream economic model, many activities are not counted. These are the unpaid, frequently hidden and uncounted care, community and volunteering activities that bind our society together. This means that the majority of women's economic activity is not counted in the global system, as most of this unpaid activity is care work, and that a significant amount of the economic activity that women do is hidden, invisible, unmeasured and devalued in economic data. According to the International Labour Organization, at a global level, three out of four hours of unpaid, unmeasured activities are carried out by women. As a consequence, economic statistics used to inform policymaking and policy priorities are narrow and gendered because only those activities that are counted are fully taken into account when policy priorities are determined. This means that women's economic activity is marginalised and not prioritised in the system.

What does this have to do with applying a gender equality lens to the economy? It has to do with understanding the implications for women in particular, who carry out the vast majority of these unpaid and undervalued activities. When we look at Ireland, we see a starkly gendered care system: 98% of full-time carers are women; Ireland has the third highest level of unpaid work in the EU; and, on average, Irish adults spend more than 30 hours per week on unpaid care provision and housework. Research by the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, and the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC, by Dr. Helen Russell has revealed that women spend double the amount of time on caring than men - 10.6 hours for men and 21.3 hours for women - per week. Women do nearly three times as much housework as men, reporting an average of 20 hours per week while men report an average of seven hours per week. This is a highly gendered system.

Linked to this is the gendered care penalty. The care penalty imposed on women in Ireland is substantial. Women's lower earnings in employment, access to care breaks and shorter working lives generate a series of complex issues that shape their economic lives: economic dependence; lower lifetime earnings; lower pension entitlements and other social protections; greater poverty as lone parents and in old age; limited access to labour market schemes; a narrower range of employment and educational opportunities; little recognition of the value of economic activity; less control of time, particularly leisure time; and restricted opportunities for political and cultural participation.

Rigid gender roles are failing men also. While men in general may benefit from a patriarchal dividend, if we might call it that, based on the unequal division of caring, rigid gender roles are for many men linked to imposed disengagement and marginalisation from care and caring. There is evidence that some men are creating the opportunities for greater involvement and many more would like the opportunity. Within the wider policy system, though, there is a definite low priority attached to supporting men within our care economy. Without more gender equality in the care economy, gender equality at a societal level will not be achieved in Ireland or globally.

I thank Dr. Barry for her comprehensive opening statement. I invite Professor Murphy to make her opening statement.

Professor Mary Murphy

I wish to say "Hello" to Dr. Barry, Dr. Murphy and the committee and to give my good wishes to Deputy Bacik.

I wish to focus on the imbalance in the provision of childcare and elder care, particularly in State, society and market provision. As a starting point for understanding how we as humanity meet our social needs generally, let us think of three mechanisms: distribution in the marketplace; redistribution through the state; and the reciprocal interdependence in human relationships that Dr. Barry spoke about. Our fundamental issue in Ireland is that we have a totally imbalanced care system where the market is delivering up to 70% of childcare and 85% of elder care. The problem is not so much the model of the private actor delivering care, but the placing of the profit-making motive at the centre of care provision. We tend to commodify care and focus on its exchange value and what profit we can get from it as an activity. This shifts care towards a market ethic, which has fundamental impacts on how we understand care and relate to one another as potential receivers and givers of care. This is the issue that I wish to address.

Focusing overly on the market for delivery tends to amplify the structural inequalities that exist in care burdens and care penalties, particularly in the context of the Irish political economy, which has one of the highest levels of low wages in the OECD. The sense that gender inequality is focused in the low-wage care sector is amplified by the structure of that sector.

I am arguing for a better balance, which can be summed up in the idea of a shift to a "careful" State, that is, a State that places care much more at the centre of how it understands how its society and economy need to operate. Such care would be universal and valued and a care ethic would underpin it. It would seek gender equality and gender neutrality and recognise reciprocity. We can use two policy tools to develop this approach to care, namely, universal basic services and participation income.

Before discussing these, I will define "care". The word itself is deeply problematic in the range of activities it has to cover. There are 40 shades of green and the Inuit have 50 words for "snow", but we only have one word for describing all care and social reproductive activity. These stretch across many sectors - health, the care we are discussing today, education and even nature if we want to broaden it out to the essential front-line activity that keeps us alive. There are many ways of defining "care", but I will focus on a narrow definition of it that has to do with child, social, adult and elder care that is provided directly.

Dr. Barry spoke, and I am sure Dr. Murphy will as well, about the negative consequences of the current model. Its fundamental logic is not care, but profit. Paradoxically, the model of economic activity does not recognise the reciprocal interdependence at the heart of our relationships even though we are dependent on those reciprocal interdependent relations. Women in that context are seen as an infinite elastic resource of care provision, as we saw during the pandemic. I do not need to draw graphic illustrations of this.

We are arguing that we should try to rebalance away from the market towards State and society, although I am not romantic about the State or society. We need only look at our recent history to know that both let women and children down badly, and are still doing so in many respects. I am not arguing for a romantic vision of the State at the centre of care or of turning to society. Rather, I am arguing for a balance and recognition of the fact that there is considerable diversity in State provision, private provision and forms of social provision.

The "careful" State would value and practise care as a right that everyone gives and receives across his or her life cycle. In this sense, there would be gender equality because there would be a more equal distribution of care giving and receiving. There would be a balance across market, State and society. There would be two key tools. A universal basic service would see the State taking a proactive role in regulating care for a wider variety of care providers, including different models of ownership than we have at present. The State would legislate to provide a much richer range of ways to approach care giving, recognising different forms of social economy and non-profit private sector delivery.

There are a lot of good examples of where they have done this in other countries. The State would have a much more expansive regulatory role than it does at the moment. Its role in regulation is usefully focused on compliance at present and that is because of the serious issues we have had in quality of care. With Big Start it has moved into a more fundamental role of regulating for wages and for funding the wages of care workers, which is welcome. However, I would see that the role of the State as the regulator needs to be imagined far beyond what it is at present, particularly to regulate the shape and structure of the care sector to be much more creative and innovative than it is now because the different models of company law and the variety of options that care givers have are limited when you look at it. The State also has roles as planner, monitor and funder in this model. All of those roles need to be expanded in the Irish context. Big Start is a good example of how to start that and the role can be developed and expanded to get better balance and to ratchet down the role of for-profit private delivery in the care infrastructure. Norway provides a positive and practical example of what universal basic services, UBS, would look like. Norway: maintains a strong regulatory role in quality; funds 85% of childcare costs; caps fees for affordability; has good regulatory governance; limits profit; and requires a governance process where all actors have to collaborate in and co-organise care. There are good practical examples where the Irish State could take a lead.

The second prong is participation income, which goes back to reciprocity and interdependence. We must find a tool in the welfare system that enables us to value and support care participation in the home, the community and social relations. That is recognising that care should never be totally private or public. There is always a huge demand for care to be rooted in our reciprocal social relations because that is what we do. We must also be respectful of our diverse family forms in how we manage care. An income support that values and recognises that care is needed and I am arguing that it could be framed as a participation income that would be available to people who are doing a wide range of socially valued activity that is broadly enabling care and social reproduction in our society. That would complement a universal basic service, UBS, because not everybody would want to be or should be in one of those services.

A participation income could demarketise and decommodify care, taking it away from being a market value. It could also free up people’s time to enable them to engage more voluntarily in the caring roles that a lot of us want to do. Many of us want to care more but we simply do not have time, money, resources or enablement to do so. There is a way of approaching income support that could build on care provision. Ironically, because the Irish welfare state is so categorical and because it still has so many different types of welfare payment, it has payments that recognise care. The seeds of what I am talking about are well embedded in the Irish welfare state and in some of our old approaches to labour market programmes. We are not starting from scratch in any of this; there are tools in place that we can build on and these ideas have been discussed in the 2006 report on supporting lone parents, in the recent climate justice report by the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, and in the climate action plan. Therefore it is not as far-fetched or romanticised as it might sound as an idea.

We can focus on how to help women as a feminised concept or we can have a feminist approach to the debate, which seeks to put gender equality at the centre of it. It is important to frame care outside of those marketised rationales and to begin to get the language of ethics of care, public services and income support outside of the male breadwinner model we currently have. Defining care as an essential public service is part of that but we must also recognise that reciprocity and interdependence at the heart of our relationships. The Citizens' Assembly on Gender Equality did a lot to begin to frame care in that direction and demonstrated demand for that State-led care in Ireland. It made recommendations for investing 1% of GNP and for higher taxes or a care tax to make a reality of the recommendations. It also recommended a constitutional reframing of how we understand and value care.

We have done a lot in this and it is welcome that the committee is focusing on trying to put together the compass towards a policy mapping that would get us from A to B. I would hope the committee would take its work in that direction.

Dr. Emily Murphy

Good morning and I hope Deputy Bacik feels better soon. I thank the committee for the invitation. On behalf of TASC, I am delighted to speak on issues around care and social protection. I will focus on two inter-related aspects of care in Ireland which TASC research has covered in detail. First, how we value care work in the labour market and second, how care work is allocated in Irish society between men and women, given the current systems of childcare provision in particular.

The value given to care in the labour market and in monetary terms is low. It has been low for decades and although Covid-19 measures have highlighted how reliant we are as a society on access to childcare in particular, there is still too little being done to raise the value of the sector in Ireland. Across Europe, care workers in various areas of care, be it early years, older age or disability, tend to receive low wages and be in precarious jobs with low levels of employment benefits. This is clearly evidenced by incomes alone. Figures vary by country but compared with average incomes, the income of a typical care worker ranges from between 50% and 80% of average incomes. In Ireland, a 2021 Pobal report has shown that early childcare workers in non-managerial positions earn only €12.45 per hour on average. Similarly, a TASC report by Dr. Robert Sweeney on the care economy from 2020 documents an hourly average wage of around €12.80 per hour among adult care workers and care assistants.

Professor Murphy touched on the fact that the care assistant and early childcare occupations serve as examples of where we need greater investment into innovative job and training models to enhance productivity and skill levels among care workers, rather than assuming an inability to promote greater productivity in face-to-face services such as these. Such long-held assumptions ensure wages remain low and curtail advancement possibilities in any care economy. If we were to raise the wages, productivity, skills and job conditions in caring professions, then we might also achieve another aim of further gender equality, which is to encourage more men to take up care work. Paid care work is still predominantly carried out by native and migrant women, though increasingly, by migrant women. Breaking down the segregation of women into care occupations must be a goal if we wish to value care work equally within Irish society. Studies looking at how perceptions of value in occupations change have demonstrated that gender segregation means that men and women will tend to place greater symbolic value on occupations that are their same-sex dominated occupations. Therefore gender segregation in the labour market begets greater normative value for women and men sorting into gendered caring careers. As such, it is essential that conditions of work for care workers are negotiated through collective bargaining to see wages rise, and further, that Government subsidies be provided for in-work training possibilities that will generate productivity and skilled jobs.

The next point I wish to make is that for the care sector in Ireland to meet the future needs of a more gender-egalitarian economy, there must be universal access for households to public and high quality childcare provision. There is a specific need for Government to increase its spending on early childcare provisions and to move from privatised care provision towards a fully integrated public early years childcare and education system. Let us look at the two main schemes available in Ireland, the early childhood care and education scheme, ECCE, and the national childcare scheme, NCS. Most spending in Ireland goes towards subsidising free preschool childcare through the ECCE. In 2019, the Government spent close to 0.16% of GNI on the ECCE and almost 0.08% of national income on the NCS. State funding has been on an upward trajectory over the last few years. However, at the current rate of increase we are decades off reaching the target set by UNICEF for countries to allocate 1% of national income to early years care. The lack of appropriate levels of State investment in public early years and childcare provision has a detrimental effect, specifically on women’s and lone-parents’ engagement in the Irish labour market, bringing further disparities in pay, savings and wealth security over a lifetime.

As Dr. Barry mentioned, if we take just one marker of this inequality which manifests in a pension income gap - the difference between male and female pension income – currently the gender disparity in annual pensions is estimated by EUROFOUND to be 29% in Ireland. TASC would argue therefore that there is an urgent need to address these aspects of valuation in care sectors to achieve greater gender equality.

I will now open the meeting up to members. As I said previously, they can also participate virtually. There are number of members participating through Microsoft Teams. I should also state that while Deputy Bacik is not participating, she is on Teams and will be keeping an eye on proceedings as Cathaoirleach. I ask members to indicate that they wish to contribute through the raised hand function on Teams.

I thank the witnesses for attending. There are lots of questions that I want to ask. It is very hard to decide where to go. In terms of the future, there seems to be a mandate for change. We heard from people who have been involved in the assembly that the citizens were really open to a reimagining of care. They were open not just to investing more in care, but doing it very differently. On the idea of having a public childcare system, or a very strong public element to the childcare system, I ask the witnesses to comment on the importance of the childcare system being universally accessible. We know that some of the concerns around childcare at the moment are in respect of community childcare access. The idea is that childcare should not be something that is simply for parents who are working or in education, but something that children should get from the beginning. It also gives people the space to have opportunities. I ask the witnesses to comment on the idea of care not just being an addendum to work and employment but something that we collectively value in itself. Dr. Emily Murphy of TASC mentioned the employment area. I ask the witnesses to comment further on the importance of progression pathways to enable those in the care sector to plan a five- or ten-year career, ensuring that it gets better, their pay increases and there is a career ladder. I think that a lot of the time people feel that a career in care work gets to a point where it hits a plateau and remains there. That leads people to think that they cannot spend 30 years working in the sector, for example.

I was really interested in Dr. Barry's comments around value and how value is calculated. We did not have a survey on wealth information for a long time but the deprivation index was a reverse way to see who did not have wealth, namely, lone parents among whom there were extraordinarily high levels of deprivation. Similarly, there is a time poverty issue. I ask the witnesses for their thoughts on the mechanisms required to ensure that care is valued and captured and how we address that. I refer to valuing care in terms of the support we can provide, including through initiatives such as the participation payment and others and how we can ensure the value of care is captured in our economic and social modelling. As Dr. Barry mentioned, there has been a shift on that and a new semester process is happening at the European level, where we are meant to be looking at new measures of society and new approaches to measuring GDP, ensuring that other indicators are considered aside from GDP. I ask the witnesses for their thoughts on that.

On Professor Mary Murphy's comments, I like the idea of participation income moving forward. One issue we must address on which we have a mandate from the citizens concerns those who have suffered historically as a result of the way we have treated care, the social protection system as it is now, and individualisation in the social protection system, specifically. For example, many women will not be able to access a full pension and will not be able to get even a basic pension because they will be means-tested and their partner's wages will be taken into account. Changes that were made to the social protection system for lone parents in Ireland did not recognise lone parents balancing care responsibilities with other work, certainly after the child reached the age of 14. The issue of income disregards is one that the citizens specifically raised.

On pension reform, we have heard about the idea of acknowledging care within our pension system. The problem is that there is talk of acknowledging an extra ten years of care within the system, but there is a proposal to push the requirement to 40 years of contributions. We go from having a requirement of 30 years of contributions with ten years of care recognised, to a requirement of 40 years of contributions with 20 years of care recognised. We are effectively in danger of ending up in the exact same position where many women will not be in receipt of a full contributory pension. That is another area in which perhaps a universal measure would be best.

Even though I would like the philosophical work on care to move forward, I am also conscious that the citizens gave really good granular recommendations on social protection policy. Another issue to be addressed is the legacy of the marriage bar. How do we untangle the issues around the single breadwinner model that is still a little bit embedded in our social protection system, and introduce one that really recognises both care and work?

Professor Mary Murphy

I thank Senator Higgins. The idea of reimagining care is an important one. I have been focused on the idea that we really need to grow our welfare imagination. We are very caught in the practice of tweaking or making small incremental changes to our present welfare system. We often get ourselves into knots because it is very complicated to fix a broken system. It is a sticking-plaster kind of approach. On going back to basics, as it were, and trying to address both the historical injustices and some of the contemporary injustices being imposed at the moment, such as the changes made in relation to lone parents, the Senator mentioned pensions and equal and individual access to social welfare. To my mind, there are two key principles that we need to move forward in that area. One is decoupling the relationship between welfare and work, as in the record of paid work that a person has. Right now, a principle of our contributory system is to recognise the contribution made primarily through paid work in the form of paid contributions, but some form of credited form of contributions, recognising a limited form of care work. I think that is probably a wrong starting point for the recognition of some of the pensions. I would look towards a system such as that in New Zealand, for example, which has a residency-based universal pension right, which does not look at the relationship between work and welfare. That is a really important principle not only in relation to the entitlement, but also in relation to not forcing people down a very narrow road of getting a welfare payment on condition that they orientate their life towards paid productive employment. I think decoupling that allows for more types of participation. That is where participation income can be quite imaginative. It tells people that we value social activity and paid work is one form that we value, which is fine, but we also value many other activities, such as democratic activity, ecological activity and care activity, in particular. Participation income decouples the welfare payment from the requirement to work in the paid economy and recognises a much broader range of socially valued work. In that sense, it is not basic income because it is looking for reciprocity back from the person. It is looking for participation and engagement in society and some form of socially valued activity but involves really widening out the basis of what we can do.

The second principle is about universality, which has to be about an individual right, moving away from the household-testing of income, which is very hard to do when we are dealing with a limited set of resources and we are trying to tackle poverty issues as well. It is about getting the balance right in respect of whether we want some level of categorical targeting. It is about whether we want the system to be universal but with some aspect of targeting within the universality. There are mechanisms to do it. Various countries have experimented with the different ways of really getting nearer to a universal entitlement to the payment. There are some interesting proposals from Anna Coote in the UK, for example, on a minimum income guarantee.

Instead of screening in only the poorest, using the income test rather than a means test works to screen out only the wealthiest. You are trying to pitch the payment at a very high level of distribution of households, as an individualised payment, yet are not trying to get it to everybody. Therefore, you might screen out the top 20%, for example, as being eligible. That would be a start in trying to reconfigure towards a more individualised and more universal type of approach to who is entitled to income support. There are ways and means to do so but we should imbed in the system the fundamental principle of an individualised approach. We could start with the present system and it is imbedded. For example, administrative individualisation is one way to sneak it into the system. We really need to get there in terms of our approach to means testing, which is really mean, versus income testing with which one can be much more imaginative and pitch it higher up the income levels that households might have. In that way, then, you can begin to individualise the income that people get when the household is entitled.

Dr. Ursula Barry

I completely agree with what Professor Mary Murphy said about the universal approach. I also agree with some of the new ways to think about universality where one can put a cap on the wealthier section of society benefiting from a universal approach. In Ireland, there is a huge need for, and priority should be placed on, a universal pension system. We do not need to have an employment-related pension system and a pension benefit system or pension allowance. We need a universal pension system that integrates those two things together and that is one of the most important things around universality. Also, men and women should have equal access to a universal pension, at whatever level it has been set, at a societal level.

I should point out that there is a high turnover of staff in the early childhood care sector, which is directly linked to the low wage levels and the difficult conditions associated with the sector in which people work long hours, have minimal breaks and where there is little sense of a socialised workplace. A high turnover creates huge problems all of the time for individual providers. What is needed is a similar career structure to the one in primary education, for example. We also need high levels of quality care provided with attached qualifications and a career structure that encourages people to remain in the sector while having a lifetime of career development within it.

In terms of lone parents and what the early childcare system provides, we definitely need to have a system that provides not just for people to access paid employment but allows them to access all kinds of other areas of activity in their lives, which could mean involvement in their community or in education. One of the gaps in the system concerns access to the grants system. When a person decides to become a part-time student in further education and third level education, he or she has no access to the grants system. Lone parents, in particular, are a group of people who would benefit from being able to be grant-supported in order to access part-time educational opportunities. They are not alone in that regard but it is a cohort that would benefit from grants.

The ECCE system is not based on whether a person is in employment but is based on access to care as an entitlement in order that a person can access the ECCE scheme and then pursue a range of different activities. The ECCE system is limited to three hours a day on five days a week and for 38 weeks in the year. In Ireland, therefore, people who want to access a range of employment opportunities must add on to the ECCE system any paid hours within the crèche facilities or whatever childminding system is being used. ECCE is not a stand-alone system. It is also not sufficient in terms of its hours and comprehensiveness, by which I mean it is not sufficient in terms of more expansive involvement in a range or wide definition of economic activity.

Finally, Commission President von der Leyen's has committed to introducing an EU care strategy by the end of 2022. It would be interesting to see whether the kind of supports that have been associated with Barcelona, which instituted and supported the kind of ECCE system that we have here for early child care, are introduced, whether a much broader definition of care is introduced and whether the EU care system is more comprehensive. If so, then that would be extremely valuable in terms of how the funding system worked. For example, in Ireland there is a huge need to have supports from both EU and national levels for a process to decongregate the elder care system because congregated settings were shown to be highly vulnerable in lots of ways. I mean that although the settings are congregated, they create systems of isolation. We need both investment by the State and support from the EU to decongregate elder care settings into much more community-based systems. When we talk about universal care, we do not need a completely top-down centralised State services system. Universal care can be community-based services that are provided by local government, as in Scotland or wherever, yet support elder care and child care. We can have models that involves participation in various different ways at community level, of which there are lots of positive examples in different countries.

Dr. Emily Murphy

I thank Senator Higgins for her questions. One of her questions was about building progression pathways. That would require us to rethink training, and in particular the vocational education training system. There are examples in the Nordic countries, which for years have had a much more expansive vocational educational training system that includes social care. Their childcare models are also more integrated with an education system, which Dr. Barry mentioned. The idea that one links childcare much more with models around a primary school teaching form of care would be one way to do it. That also introduces progression and gives leadership opportunities, while at the same time gives people a sense of a skilled occupation.

Universal access is very important. It is shown to be incredibly important in terms of childcare in other countries where one can see, in particular, differences in the employment rates for lone mothers and mothers in couples. For example, Denmark, as a state, spends a much higher amount on universally accessible high-quality childcare.

There is a 14% differential in employment of lone mothers between that country and Ireland. Those are two areas where you can take different models of state expenditure on those care aspects as examples.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. I have a question for Dr. Murphy. TASC's submission states the distribution of care work in society plays a central role in the formation of inequality between men and women. The fact women provide an overwhelming amount of child, elder and other forms or care means they have often been excluded. I presume TASC includes in that that they participate in a more limited way, as well as being excluded, or in a more difficult way in political, economic, voluntary, cultural and leisure activity.

I was thinking of interactions I have had with constituents in recent days about finding a childcare place and getting back to work. If there was a risk, the danger fell to her and not him. These are young couples who are committed to gender equality. I am not trying to criticise all men. When I speak to my constituents, the day-to-day disparity in the assumption of care responsibility between men and women comes up again and again. I even see it in WhatsApp groups - "Hello Ladies". Does Dr. Murphy know what I mean? I see it all over the place in subtle things. I see women going back to work who find it difficult to ensure the care responsibility they have assumed is now distributed more equally between partners. It is not the case that because you earn more you do less in relation to family or anything else.

From a perception and social perspective, how do we convince and explain to men who think they are doing gender equality that there is more to do and it is a day-to-day thing? It is not unique to Ireland as we have seen it across reports from the EU. Frances Fitzgerald has pioneered work on this in the EU. I am not saying anything unusual here, am I?

Dr. Emily Murphy

No. It is a curious one which we have observed over the past two years especially. There is interesting research from the UK looking at how much change there was, when people were experiencing lockdown measures, in men doing routine household chores and care work for which women normally take responsibility. The enforced working from home increased men's participation. One aspect is being in the home for more time. The other thing, on the social perspective and how to get men to do more of the routine caring that women do, is that incentives need to be in place. They would either have to be educational qualifications or pay.

I do not need to be educated or paid to put out the bins. I know what Dr. Murphy is trying to say. It is difficult to answer, is it not? That is my point.

Dr. Emily Murphy

It is hard to change.

Yes. I can see Dr. Murphy struggling with the answer because it is difficult. I even find it a difficult question to ask because the response is "I do this", "I do that" and so on. Yet we have a broad problem not just in Ireland but across Europe. It happens at different stages of life and in different ways. It is not in all cases but in many, so much so that TASC put it in its submission, the EU is driving policy to highlight it post Covid, and so on.

What role for education, such as a different form of relationships and sexuality education, is in this for the next generation, even if it is too late for the women in my constituency to whom I have been speaking and for whom maybe nothing will change? If anybody else wants to come in, I would be appreciative of their perspective.

Professor Mary Murphy

I suppose I should come in as an educator. We should never underestimate the degree to which our current breadwinner system and our welfare, tax and education systems orientate a culture of female care. Understanding how the present culture is constructed and maintained is important. Some of the rules we talked about concerning eligibility systems for pensions reinforce in people's heads gendered differences in relation to the household, employment and the role of care. We should not be surprised that we get the culture we get because we set out to make it in some respects. That is why looking at the Constitution is important. All those roles, norms and values permeate through our culture, education, churches, GAA or whatever and how we construct them.

If we look at what other societies have been trying to do, much of the time it is trying to find other policy tools to reorientate the culture, such as forcing the loss of parental leave in the family if it is not shared equally between the male and the female, as a start. That only works if it is accompanied by other measures to try to change employers' attitudes to facilitating men to take care leave in the workplace. It is the same with the idea of the four-day working week, which has much gender equality potential but tends not to be pushed in that context. There are campaigns for a four-day week that are about working less to live more, but then there is a gender equality aspect that is kind of stitched on. It could be about working less to care more. Often the joined-up thinking is not there about how some good policy changes can be used to change culture.

On education, we talk a lot about integrating into our education system more focus on sustainability as a cultural shift so that our children and young people are orientated towards climate change. We do not have that conversation about care but could if we chose to. We are not quite there yet in terms of looking for the cultural value change.

In the song "The Town I Loved So Well", there is a line "While their men on the dole played [the women's] role" and they "laughed through the smoke and the smell". That song really annoys me sometimes but there is a deeply embedded expectation of roles.

Some academic research is interesting on cultural shifts that happen when there is a major recession of big cultural change like the pandemic. They are trying to see if one or two years of a shift in care roles brought about by a structural shift embed. Some research shows it does not or that there are class differences in how it embeds. When linked with more education and other shifts in culture, it changes and the shift in the care roles begins to be embedded in household practice when things return to normal. Other research shows, particularly in working-class situations, that there was a reversion to the normalisation of gender roles when the structural shift went back to normal.

I am interested in what Professor Murphy said there and in what she said about the four-day week. The Acting Chair is probably sick to the teeth of me giving the example of a constituent of mine who was working in a senior commercial firm. She was a partner in that firm. Consider the dynamic. We are trying to get more women across the board in every organisation, especially commercial organisations, which have been so gendered in the past. She took a three-day week and he remained at a five-day week to address the care needs of their two young children, instead of the blindingly obvious solution, which was two four-day weeks, with all the benefits of equality, pensions, opportunities, participation and the normalisation, in a commercial world, of a man requesting a four-day week for three years to address the care needs of his children.

Professor Mary Murphy

There are theoretical models of how to envisage this. We tend to have a commodified approach where we expect both parents to find care in the marketplace and both to work full time. A different way of thinking about that might be two three-quarter jobs as the societal norm, where both expect to play some role in the home and to work for a certain amount of time. They would also access some care in the care infrastructure that is available.

I would like to think that is where we could be shifting, but a lot of policy, including working time policy, welfare policy, taxation policy and care policy, needs to be going in the same direction. I believe that is what Senator Higgins was talking about when she spoke about that macro welfare imagination. It is a question of what the compass is pointing towards. We have many good policies but we do not join them up in a vision of what we are trying to create as a culture or an ethic around care. That is missing from the conversation sometimes, as is what the goal of all this is. Is the goal a gender-neutral distribution of care between the family, the State and the market? If it is, what do we need to do? If we know where we are going, it is easier to start talking about how we get there.

Dr. Ursula Barry

Research across various countries has shown that when it comes to the care burden, which Professor Murphy mentioned, the management and organisation of household care needs in heterosexual couples come down to women, even when both parties in the couple are full-time employees. There has been very little shift in the management, organisation, identification and hiring of care, so that responsibility comes down to the woman in the couple. The research on that is very strong. We recently introduced paternity leave, which is a very good thing. At the same time, we are still operating on the basis there is six months' maternity leave and a number of weeks' paternity leave. From the very outset, therefore, we structure care in such a way that the responsibility is assumed to be primarily the woman's. That shift and change of culture will need time; it will not happen very quickly. I believe there is evidence in the younger generation of more equal sharing of care responsibilities. That is driven a lot by men's expectations of having closer connection to their children and child-rearing. It is not just about women.

Another thing struck me in what Deputy Carroll MacNeill said. I have been involved in a European level gender equality research network for many years. One of the things that has fascinated me is that when care is talked about in the Nordic countries, Finland in particular, it is not to facilitate employment but in the context of the quality of care received. That includes the care of young children. The care of young children is not seen in the Nordic countries as a means to allow women to access paid work. Rather, quality of care is seen as in the interests of the children, particularly those in working-class or disadvantaged areas. It is seen as child-driven, not driven by employment policy. That is quite an important distinction to make as to how our culture looks at the question of care. There is less and less confidence the hybrid system people have been thinking may emerge from the pandemic will be the outcome and more and more of a tendency to go back to pre-pandemic normalisation.

However, the percentage of women in administrative or managerial jobs or in professional areas is increasing quite significantly in Ireland. Women are achieving a level of seniority in those areas. That will not go away and it will change the nature of the conversation at household level. It changes the assumption that women's work is additional and looks at women's paid work on an equal basis. I think that will shift. Again, there is the matter of time. Cultural shifts take time.

Senator Warfield has had to leave. I have a couple of questions from him and a couple from me. I believe the following questions from Senator Warfield are for Dr. Murphy. She spoke of the UNICEF target of 1% of GDP spend on childcare. What is the social and the economic cost of not acting on that recommendation? We always speak of these things as being a cost, but what is the cost of not increasing that level of investment? Will Dr. Murphy explain the role she sees collective bargaining playing with reference to her opening statement and the listing of the low levels of pay received not only in what is one of our most vital services, namely, our childcare services, but also in our disability services?

Professor Murphy hit on something very important when she spoke of the compass and the pathway to defining care. Given the impact it has on so many sectors across our society and our communities, if we do not have that shift in recognition of care, we will not be able to make any progress in a number of different areas. It is not just one aspect that will be impacted by a lack of that pathway to recognising care.

Professor Murphy spoke of basic State services and the positive impact they could have on gender equality. Trade unions have highlighted that even if some hybrid working model were to become much more commonplace across society, that would not remove the care burden or the care expectations on women at present, some of which, as Deputy Carroll MacNeill has highlighted, have been assumed to be the responsibility of one adult in the household. If Professor Murphy could address that point, it would be fantastic.

I will put another question to Dr. Murphy specifically. There was talk of the breakdown of the segregation of women into care occupations and those very heavily gendered roles. The committee has heard substantial statements from those who work in the education sector on the impact of the lack of availability of options, especially at secondary school level, on determining a career pathway, particularly for younger women. In Dr. Murphy's experience, what is her opinion on the role of education, that is, not only formal education delivered in a formal setting but also the more societal education as to how we change the concept of the provision of care as a career?

Professor Mary Murphy

I hope I have understood the question. The point about care expectations goes back to the conversation we had about changing the culture of care and how that needs to happen over time. To some degree, it is a question of how the conversation about care can be amplified and accelerated in order that the culture can be shifted more quickly. I mentioned climate change and the degree to which we can see cultural values shift in respect of sustainability and people's personal and political roles in that regard. One practical example happening on the campuses at the moment relates to consent and the culture around sexuality and personal responsibility for consent. If we look at what we are trying to do there in creating those conversations and trying to force the pace of a cultural shift that may well be happening anyway but that we want to speed up, there are some quite valuable lessons. They are not all positive in that it has been very hard to get male engagement among our student population in the consent framework that has been developed. There are therefore some good policies and practices emerging but it is quite hard to make them work in practice and to get them going.

The Acting Chairman referred to the appreciation of the real value of care.

It goes back to a question that perhaps Senator Higgins asked earlier about why care needs to be universal and the penny not perhaps fundamentally dropping. At the moment, as Dr. Barry said, we frame it and our understanding in Ireland is as a sort of a labour market concept. It helps people get back into work and that is a good thing. The economy needs them. It is like that old trope about how if you invest $1 you get back $7 with the local multipliers in the economy. When we look at some of the evidence, however, taking all that aside and trying not to put it into an economic conversation, the question arises as to what the value is to the child of being cared for in a high quality environment and the degree to which care is a basic human need. It is not even just a human right; it is more than that. It is a basic need where if it not satisfied, a lot of the other developmental stages that a child might expect to go through into adulthood will never be fully formed or shaped. It is fundamental to our well-being and how we understand our human society. From that point of view, it is universal in that every child needs it. It can be achieved in a number of ways. It does not mean that every child needs to be in a formal care institution. However, every child needs an investment in quality care and every family needs support in making sure every child gets that. In that sense, it is a human right.

We need to create a cultural change around that understanding of what care is and why it is so important. Perhaps we still have not quite got there yet. As Dr. Barry said, our conversation is still very much framed around it being a labour market issue. However, there is that issue of the cost of not doing it. I am quite nervous of some of those conversations, to be honest, because they tend to point how the cost is counted. “Present day saved” tends to be one of the great indicators for what is saved by not investing in children and we end up in a very delinquent framing of the children who do not get childcare and what happens. Perhaps the cost of not doing it is more about social cost of not having a fully functioning and flourishing society to which we are all able to contribute and where we reach our full potential as human beings. The cost of that society is huge if not everybody in society is able actually to contribute as much as they potentially could have at birth. That is how we need to cost it, rather than go back and cost the number of welfare payments. The way we do these economic costings brings us in the wrong direction and starts a wrong conversation for why we want to invest in care, so I am careful with those kind of answers.

It might have been my delivery of that question.

Professor Mary Murphy

No, it is okay.

Professor Mary Murphy

There is a famous example in New Zealand where they did an assessment like that. It is a called the million-dollar man. They counted up all he cost the state over the years because he did not get the right start in life. It cost the state $1 million in New Zealand. It backfired completely because it got into an anti-welfare discourse that this man was costing $1 million, which was never the intended point. They meant that had this man been given a decent start in life, he would not be needing all of this stuff. It was an argument for investment, not for drawing attention to the real cost. Therefore, we need to be careful how we get at some of these things.

Dr. Emily Murphy

I would fully agree with what Professor Murphy said on the framing of that. It can sometimes be difficult to see what is going on with these cost-benefit analyses. The major thing that comes out of research where there is greater investment would be that in terms of social shifts, which we covered here, which is a cultural shift in how we focus on quality of care, quality of care will be improved if it is built into educational, social and economic systems where it is seen to be invested in. In addition, while we do not want to overplay too much the “You invest here and then you see returns in this way”, women’s participation in the labour market will also be improved if there is greater access. This is also important, not just from an economic model, but also culturally. The next question asked was on secondary school education. If younger people are seeing more varied roles that men and women are doing in society, this also shifts culture quite a bit. Therefore, there is an important aspect to increasing women’s employment in particular.

There was a very specific reason I asked that question. There is a man in my constituency who I would know quite well whose career is a carer. That is his job and what he does. He would also have caring responsibilities outside of his job. However, his employer has come to him repeatedly to take on additional work because the clients they work with, particularly older men, would prefer to have care provided by a man. Despite this, we fail to value that and respect, in some ways, the asks of that older man to have as a care provider somebody to whom he feels he can relate more. I believe this was touched on earlier as well, but I often wonder if we are doing our men a great disservice in some regards when we do not give them the information or opportunities to value care. As a society, we want them to do that. We want, as a society, to change our opinion of care. However, that does not just involve change in care from a female perspective. It also involves change in care from societal perspectives, both male and female.

Does Dr. Barry want to come in on this?

Dr. Ursula Barry

Yes. I very much agree there is huge value in focusing on men, men’s opportunity to care, men’s entitlement to care and then the policies that support men’s access to care. That is very important. There a constant issue around the idea of what is the downside if we do not provide it. There was a very interesting piece of work done during the pandemic by Susan Himmelweit and a second author, who I cannot remember. They looked at the difference between investing in care and investing in construction and the returns. It was one of those economic benefit models. Investing in care in highly labour intensive and investing in construction is less labour intensive. They argued that investing in care created 3.5 times more returns in the economy than investing €1 in the construction industry. They did a comparison across many different countries. It was very interesting but it was very much an economic benefit model. That benefit was seen in terms of employment and the narrow ways in which our economies work.

As pointed out earlier, it is like we value what goes through the marketplace. For example, Professor Murphy emphasised environmental sustainability. If we generate a better environment, such as more blue flag beaches or whatever, that is not valued in economic terms because it is not a market-based addition to our environment. Many things around the environment are not market-based and market-valued. Therefore, they are, again, marginal to our policy system in the way care is. We have to look at a wider way of measuring economic and social well-being.

Somebody pointed out that there is an amount of work being done on that by the UN with the human development index. In Europe, there is a gender equality index, for example. However, at the same time, the main drivers are still GNP and GDP and they are core to how we value any additional activity, whether it is on care or in relation to the environment. Until that shifts, at least to a significant degree, it is very hard to see the wider socio-cultural context in which care and the environment are evaluated. It is hard to see them shifting.

Would Deputy McAuliffe like to ask some questions before I go back to Senator Higgins?

I apologise, as I was at the Committee of Public Accounts. I fell out with the Chair because I told him I had to-----

We are not going to have a repeat of that.

I often think that going from that meeting to this meeting is like going between two different worlds. We always talk about much more positive things in this room. There are two things that I wanted to touch on. There is much in the recommendations about childcare and caring that speaks to a better society as opposed to just achieving gender equality. In this committee, we have to think about what we can deliver to focus on the issues of gender equality, which is ultimately our role. The wording of a constitutional amendment will be one issue. Perhaps the witnesses have not given it much consideration. There are recommendations about the proposed wording for how caring is treated. Have the witnesses reflected on that? Do they think it is valued within the overall proposals? We have had many discussions here about creating a hierarchy of inequality by mentioning different groups, which we try to avoid. We had a discussion about caring and recognising the different types of caring. Are the witnesses happy with the wording that came out of the report and how caring is reflected by it?

My second question is about the exit mechanisms from caring. There are many people who provide childcare, care for an older relative or somebody with a disability. Their circumstances might change and they reach a point where they finish their time of providing care. Our social welfare system often treats people who are applying for carer's allowance like they are getting some sort of State bonus instead of recognising that they are contributing towards a cost that the State would otherwise incur. It is remarkable how the HSE and social workers do not automatically link the provision of a carer's allowance with an overall package that is provided to somebody who is exiting hospital. That is a separate point. Many people leave caring and want to go back into the job market or some form of training and education. There is not an easy transition for many of those people. Have the witnesses given any consideration to that?

I return to the Acting Chairman's point about the representation of men in many professions. We have talked about teaching and how that impacts perceptions of particular professions by both male and female students. Whether it involves family members or people being cared for, is there a perception that a gender is the preferred gender for caring? Have the witnesses considered how education and training boards, ETBs, and other training agencies could proactively encourage more people into those professions that have lower representation? During the recession, I saw many men who might have been involved in construction or other professions, who never considered caring as an option before, go into it because of changes in the market and really enjoy it. The Acting Chairman talked about older men perhaps being more comfortable with personal care being provided by a man. Do the witnesses have practical examples of how we might be able to do that? I apologise. There were a lot of questions.

Professor Mary Murphy

I will address the latter part of what the Deputy spoke about. I have many practical examples, since I spent the past three years looking at the public employment services and at how narrow the model of public employment services, PES, is. It is focused on quick progression into the first job. It is coupled with a conditional welfare system that makes people go in that direction. We have argued for and given detailed proposals for a thing called the model of enabling employment guidance, MEEG, instead of PES. Enablement refers to the concept that services wherever a citizen comes to the system, whether in the ETB, the Department, Intreo, JobPath, and local employment services, should be able to enable them to navigate their lives. The services should provide navigational agency and give them the tools to step back. They can say that they were construction workers but if somebody would discuss it with them, they would consider doing something different if given the space and time to figure out what it means, instead of being told that it has been advertised, that they can get the job tomorrow and then the service can meet its target and everything will be fine.

There are clear proposals about reorienting public employment services more generally in a labour market that will change all the time, with artificial intelligence and with climate transition. A number of jobs will be emptied out because of their sustainability impact. and we will be creating new forms of employment. Citizens have to be enabled to manage that transition. It requires a new take on our institutions in order that they are more enabling, adaptable and flexible than we allow them to be. Workers in a local employment service will say that they have to do what the computer states and that it says "No" to them. The conversation they are allowed to have with the claimant is narrow and demands immediate action. It is about getting onto the next bus; not about telling people about the superb opportunities to reskill, retrain, rethink and reimagine who they could be in the next 40 years. The work has been done in that regard and there are ideas about how to change those systems to make them better.

There are many examples of other countries with better guidance systems, both in adult education and the labour market programmes, which have a wider view of how one can enable people to get into the right space and to understand how the future will shift. Obviously, we do not know this fully but we have enough information about sectors that might diminish or those that might grow, as well as what we might need to orient people towards.

Dr. Emily Murphy

I thank the Deputy for the questions. I will address the representation of men in care work. The Deputy asked for an example. Research has shown that once they are in care work, it is deemed to be fulfilling work for many people. It is interesting to consider how to encourage more men to take that step towards a care occupation. It comes back to a question posed earlier about the role of collective bargaining. To encourage more men to go into care occupations, some of which need to be professionalised further, one would have to change the conditions of the job to make it more attractive. This includes scheduling, which we have not discussed much, including work hours. It also includes accounting for the skills required and whether there are professional pathways. There is a role for education and training, particularly vocational training systems, to increase the perception that there is a career in caring, as opposed to it being a job with bad hours and bad pay.

You could start with the HSE moving away from suppliers of care for older persons effectively being people on zero-hour contracts, with tenders being based on that. Does anyone want to address the constitutional question?

Dr. Ursula Barry

One thing that we have lacked in Ireland is publicly-supported care packages that are focused on the home and community-based care, rather than institutional care, particularly for elderly people. We would see change if we had home care packages that were linked to better conditions of work. Home care systems in Ireland have gone backwards. We have casualised them and have taken them out of the public system and instead we have individual, self-employed people in the care area, with very poor conditions. The new care packages that the Government has been promising for home-based care need to be structured in a way that would encourage men to enter the care system and open the possibility of men caring for elderly people. Men from outside Ireland have a high profile in work in the care sector in Ireland, including nursing and home care.

In Ireland, we have not crossed that bridge to any great extent.

Another thing we need to think about is the many ways in which we put ceilings on earnings, such as through earnings disregards. In this regard, a carer is allowed to earn only X amount in addition to that earned from caring. We need to change that. There is no reason to establish these kinds of ceilings. If we use the tax system intelligently, we do not have to put a ceiling on the earnings a person can have alongside the social welfare he or she may be claiming. These kinds of ceilings need to be broken.

It was very interesting to note the hierarchies we created within the welfare system during the pandemic. Those on the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, were paid at quite a high level whereas those on the jobseeker's allowance were paid at a much lower level. It was recognised when the PUP was established that the amount of money in question was needed weekly to adequately support somebody's independent living but the jobseeker's payment is significantly lower. Now that the PUP is gone, we are back down to the level of the jobseeker's payment. It is interesting to note how much of a hierarchy we created in our highly fragmented welfare system.

Regarding the Constitution and care, there was a recommendation on gender equality and having non-discrimination built into the Constitution by way of a clause. Second, it was recommended that the language of the Constitution be changed so women would not be assumed to be carers or have a domestic role. If accepted, we would talk in terms of parents, rather than women in this context. Other kinds of reforms considered were more specific to the statutory legislation and social welfare protection than anything else.

The third recommendation of the Citizens' Assembly was to have non-gender-specific language and to oblige the State to take reasonable measures to support care within the home and wider community. It did not state anything more than that because the Constitution is really about framing general principles. It is up to statute law to get to the specifics, as far as I would understand it. To get to the specifics of a care system that is well structured and encourages both men and women to share caring responsibilities, it is down to what statutory law provides for; the Constitution is for more general framing.

We will return to Senator Higgins. Does she have supplementary questions she would like to put to our witnesses?

Yes. I have just a couple. I wish to pick up on where the conversation left off. If any of the witnesses have further thoughts on the Constitution element, we would be very interested in hearing them. We have examined the constitutional issues a lot from a legal perspective but, of course, they have significant implications for social policy, legislation and the kinds of measures put in place. While the detail would not be in the Constitution, the citizens were really clear that they want a reasonable-efforts or reasonable-measures requirement to be imposed on the State in respect of its offering of support. The citizens' recommendations on care and social protection attempt to envisage or provide an example of what the reasonable measures might be; however, the core aspect is that there would be a requirement on the State and that recognition would not be solely symbolic but, rather, have effect. That was really clear. If any of the witnesses have thoughts on this, we would welcome them. It is significant because the exact wording has implications.

The implications in the past were such that there was, under the protections of the Constitution, a different requirement for lone parents than for those who were married. I refer to there not having been a core requirement regarding full-time availability on social protection, whereas there was for lone parents once the child reached the age of 14. This is an example of where we need to look at the big picture and to the effects, which can be very specific.

I have one question on the big picture and a couple on the other element. I agree on the recognition of care and its importance. There is a dilemma whereby, although you want the care to be recognised and valued, it is not simply about putting a monetary value on each hour.

It is about the latter in terms of employment and, perhaps, participation, but it cannot be about these alone because many of the dividends come out in other places. We talked about both the dangers and benefits. The general social benefit is 3.5 times the individual benefit. In my first question, I was referring to the cost of care. This is not about the idea of the million-dollar man or that kind of thing; it is more about the fact that, at the moment, care does have a cost. It benefits society in an amorphous way, in that the overall benefit, which is 3.5 times greater, may not be felt by the individuals giving the care but the cost is very much borne by individuals. Therefore, individuals carry a huge cost. In that regard, one of the interesting ways of measuring I have heard about is in terms of time poverty. I mentioned that deprivation is an issue. Is it a matter of using social indicators related to levels of deprivation and time poverty as measures if individuals are effectively carrying the cost of care even though society is getting the general benefits?

I am very interested in what has been done in Buenos Aires and a few other places around the world. They have started measuring time poverty because it interlinks with economic poverty and particularly affects those who are parenting alone. Have the witnesses thoughts on that?

Rewarding care in the ecological sense represents a really interesting frame. It is actually crucial. Rather than just having carbon markets as one blunt measure in respect of the environmental action, ecological care may be a little more amorphous, as was said. Things like a clean beach or a thriving ecosystem are not as unitable as are carbon markets. That is why I believe in rewarding people for how they spend their time arises. The participation piece is interesting because it recognises time as an input into the world, not just an output.

I want to return to the cost aspect and the inequalities in the current system. I acknowledge we have talked about a universal pension, which is what the citizens want. However, I am concerned about what is to happen in the interim, or right now. Even the Pensions Commission report, for example, does not include the approximately €2 billion or €2.4 billion spent on private pension tax relief. The commission did not consider that; that was a separate area of consideration. Then we had these conversations about what we could afford or not in terms of care and fixing the care or a universal pension.

In a way, our social protection system is meant to be distributive and that is why the idea of filtering out the very wealthy is fair. The social welfare system is meant to be redistributive in terms of raising our general social floor but at the moment our economic system it is redistributive upwards, whereby those on the very highest incomes are getting supplemented by way of tax relief on their private pensions to an amount substantially similar to, if not quite equal to, the amount being spent to address the care deficit in the pensions system, for example. We need to be naming these issues.

I mentioned earlier the danger if we opt for a 40-year contributory system. Again, I believe we should have a universal pension. However, if we move to a 40-year system, with only 20 years recognised for care, we could trap many women again in that they would be paying for the cost of care. That would be an inequality.

I want to have that conversation about the universal side of it, because that is where we need to go, but I also want to make sure we as a committee acknowledge and tackle measures that are reinforcing care inequality and putting the cost of care onto women.

Dr. Ursula Barry

I agree. The Citizens' Assembly looked at the cost of subsidising private pensions. There is a lot of discussion about how our public expenditure system works but the costing of tax reliefs is not central in that discussion a lot of the time. The cost can be incredibly high and therefore the benefits are very high to those in middle and higher income parts of society. It was also interesting that, with regard to the environment and the retrofitting of homes, the Government decided to establish one-stop shops where people could get all the different things, such as for their attic and windows, and there would be an overall costing and an overall level of subsidisation. One thing our welfare system does have is a structured system that is clear as to what the entitlements are for individuals or households in different situations. We definitely do not have a one-stop shop and we could go down that road.

Collective bargaining is important. At the moment there are discussions about going back into the national wage agreement and looking at the impact of inflation on working people's wages. Those from the trade union side have said they are also interested in what kind of services would be supported. It is not just about what the wage levels are set at but what other kinds of public services are supported that would amount to a better quality of life. The trade unions are quite conscious of that process and I hope that will carry right through the negotiations. It is quite important that it happens like that.

I have one supplementary question which I forgot to mention when talking about the cost of care. I used to sit on the Joint Committee on Disability Matters and it was a long battle to get that cost of disability report by Indecon published. It is being looked at now with regard to those invisible costs that get carried by people who have a disability. It might be interesting for us to get that report in terms of recognising some of the individual costs associated with care.

Dr. Ursula Barry

The assembly did look at the cost of care as an issue. That is part of the report that came through from the assembly.

Dr. Emily Murphy

The Senator made a good point about time poverty and thinking about that more when looking at bringing greater gender equality from a social and economic perspective. It would be interesting to see the breakdown in families in countries where men do more care. At the moment there is not just time poverty but very gendered allocations of time within families. It is a very interesting aspect to bring into the discussion. I would be in favour of that. As a society, we want to move towards more equal time shares between different activities and not men being seen to do more of an activity versus women. That would be an interesting change.

Professor Mary Murphy

I will start with the time issue. There is a concept called temporal deprivation, which Tony Fitzpatrick did a lot of work on about ten years ago. He spoke about the ways social policy could engage with the concept of time deprivation. It fits into those kinds of ideas of participation income and recognising the other socially valued ways people choose to spend their time. These things have logic in their communities and their lives but may not fit in with a very narrow understanding of added value in a GNP sense. We are getting at some of that with things like the artists' basic income pilot. Artists are spending their time doing socially valued activity and they should be supported by society, through the State, to do that. Some of those ideas are starting to percolate through to policy. It is about rewarding people for how they spend their time. Translating that from arts and culture into ecological activity or care activity is not such a huge step. A woman in France, Sophie Swaton, is doing a lot of work on what she calls ecological transition income. This is time spent cleaning the beach. She wants to reward people for the ecological time they put into being a good citizen from a sustainability point of view. There are some lovely ideas that are grouped around the concept of rewarding people for socially useful work. All of that points towards that participation income space.

The Senator is absolutely right about the tax relief. I used to think, in my innocence, that if we could name the figure people would be so shocked that it would work. Now I understand that it is going to take a lot more than that. There is €2.4 billion going out in the discretionary pension tax relief and that is so inequitably gendered in terms of who benefits from it from a male-female perspective. However, €15 billion is going out overall in discretionary tax reliefs and it is the same gendered distribution in who benefits from it. That €15 billion would fund so much. Even if we reduced it so people were only allowed discretionary tax relief at 15% and they could keep a bit because of the economic arguments, there is still loads that could be done in that space. I do not understand why that does not have more traction as a political issue because it seems blatantly obvious to me.

Going back to the constitutional question, one of the lessons we learned from repeal is that we should not be putting something into the Constitution unless we are really sure of it. Less is more with constitutions. We have learned a lot about that and paid a high price for putting things in. Having said that, this is clearly an opportunity to put value on care and promote the idea of the State's obligation to care. Care has a very wide social value because otherwise we would narrow the concept of it. It is that idea of a careful State. With the trade unions beginning to ask about services in the context of collective bargaining, there is an increasing understanding that the services and income together make up the package through which people have to mediate their lives. Universal basic services, participation income and quality wages for care in the mainstream labour market together cover quite a broad spectrum of where we would like the State umbrella to be with regard to care. That might give some sort of framework for thinking about this. I will not mention any specific policies but maybe we can think about the concept of the State's obligation to be a careful State and provide the umbrella of services and income that people need to value the time they spend on care.

That is brilliant. I will ask one final question before I bring the meeting to a close. I would like to touch on the €2.4 billion in tax relief for pensions and the €15 billion Professor Murphy mentioned. This might be going slightly outside the frame of today's discussion. What is Professor Murphy's opinion on the importance of gender-based budgeting?

Professor Mary Murphy

How long have we got?

Professor Mary Murphy

A lot of work has been done on gender-based budgeting. Some of the work shows that it is very hard to make it work in a practical way, where there is added value from the process and you can point to things that changed because of gender budgeting, whether policies or budget allocations. I have some experience of trying to do some gender budgeting and I think there is great learning to be gotten from it.

I think it gives a real appreciation of the nature of how we design policy and the sometimes implicit gendered distribution implications of a policy, that unless you do gender budgeting or gender proofing more broadly you simply can never understand. It is really important. There have been some advances in respect of the Parliamentary Budget Office and the infrastructure of the State in this regard but we are still in the ha'penny place on the level of investment that is needed in it. Let us consider the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council and its level of resourcing to do what is considered to be fiscal proofing. What kind of infrastructure does the State need to have to really do gender-equality budgeting in a meaningful way so that we can really draw out enough lessons for it to actually impact on the decisions we are making about policy and budget allocation? There is a lot in that space. We have some demonstrable shift in what we are doing but we have a long way to go.

I thank Professor Murphy. On behalf of the committee, I thank everyone for their time and their engagement today. It has been very proactive and will help the committee in its considerations when it produces its report.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.21 a.m. until 9 a.m. on Thursday, 11 June 2022.
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