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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN díospóireacht -
Thursday, 9 Mar 2006

Ombudsman for Children: Presentation.

We will now have a discussion with Ms Emily Logan, Ombudsman for Children, on the report on complaints received about child protection in Ireland. I welcome Ms Logan. Before I ask her to commence her presentation, I draw her attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege. However, this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask Ms Logan to make her presentation, following which we will have a question and answer session.

Ms Emily Logan

I thank the Vice Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to address them to discuss the protection of children from abuse. The many damning reports relating to child protection produced in recent years, not least the Ferns Report which the committee has considered in recent weeks, all send the clear message that as a society we must take seriously the task of protecting children from abuse and provide appropriately for those who have been abused. We all have a role to play in this. I see my role as giving a voice to those children and young people who have experienced or are experiencing abuse and ensuring effective action is taken to protect them.

I am here to speak about the report I submitted to this committee in January and, in particular, the steps which must be taken to enhance the protection of children from abuse. My report contains a summary and analysis of 61 complaints submitted to my office by members of the public up to December of last year. The complaints indicate concerns about the way in which reports of child abuse, in all its forms, have been handled by the relevant authorities. The action my office undertook in response to these complaints is set out in the report.

The report does not attempt to give an overview of child abuse in Ireland nor to substantiate the reports of child abuse or the substance of the complaints transmitted to my office. In compiling and submitting this report to the committee my aim is to highlight the main issues of concern brought to my office by complainants, to give an opportunity to the relevant authority to benefit from that learning and to bring positive change for any child who may need child protection services.

The main issues of concern highlighted by complainants are difficulties in accessing child protection services; a lack of information and awareness about those services; delays and regional inconsistencies regarding interventions where a child protection concern is raised; a lack of adequate support after disclosures of abuse have been made; a continuing lack of respect for the voice of the child; a perceived lack of accountability of service providers and a perceived reluctance to intervene, particularly in cases of familial abuse.

As committee members are no doubt aware, the importance of an appropriate and effective response to a disclosure of child abuse cannot be overstated. The Ferns Report noted that the impact of child abuse upon a child or young person will be determined by a number of factors, one of which is the response to any complaint made. It is crucially important that those charged with the protection of children get this response right. The complaints received by my office form a unique set of data. However, the issues they raise are already known to the relevant authorities.

Dr. Helen Buckley of Trinity College Dublin, an expert in the field of child protection, recently noted in the Irish Journal of Family Law that the child protection system fails to engage with the needs of vulnerable children. In reacting to my report, the HSE also acknowledged that much work must be done to ensure an appropriate response to reports of child abuse. What should be done to tackle the difficulties inherent in our child protection services? In my report I noted that last November the Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, announced a review of Children First, the national guidelines for the protection and welfare of children, and that the HSE will launch a nationwide publicity and awareness campaign on child sexual abuse. Both of these initiatives are welcome.

It is important to note that reviews of the Children First guidelines have taken place. What is now required is a comprehensive evaluation of child protection services provided by the HSE which takes account of and addresses the issues raised through the complaints received by my office. Anything less than a comprehensive review of child protection policy, practice and procedure will fall short of what is required to put matters right.

There is no doubt about the real need for the announced nationwide publicity and awareness campaign on child sexual abuse. However, such a campaign should extend to raising awareness about all forms of child abuse and not only sexual abuse. I also encourage the HSE to involve from the outset children and young people in the preparation of any campaign. The lack of clarity and understanding about what will happen to a child or his or her family following a disclosure of abuse may prevent children and young people from making reports. This must be tackled through the participation of children and young people in order to reach those most vulnerable. In planning the campaign, the issue of the different languages of children and adults in fast-changing multicultural Ireland must be addressed. I hope the committee will strongly advocate the comprehensive audit and the awareness raising campaign, and perhaps raise them directly with the Minister of State with responsibility for children next week.

In addition to raising the issue of child protection in this forum, I will raise it with the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child in Geneva. The UN committee will examine Ireland's report to it in September. I will submit my report and meet the committee in June. I imagine the UN committee will express a view on this issue. Perhaps greater awareness at national and international level of the need for enhanced child protection mechanisms in Ireland will provide the impetus needed to herald in the changes required to ensure that all children receive the services they deserve.

My office will continue to monitor this matter through the complaints it receives and through its oversight of policies, practices and procedures in the State. In considering how best to proceed to ensure adequate policies, practices and procedures are in place for the safeguarding of children from abuse, I will endeavour to use my mandate in the most effective ways possible.

I thank Ms Logan.

I welcome Ms Logan to the committee and congratulate her on her work. I will begin with a general question. Ms Logan's post as Ombudsman for Children is new. Does she agree it has a lack of teeth in so far as she is only allowed to investigate where services for children governed by legislation break down? If a child does not receive the necessary treatment for abuse, she cannot investigate unless it is covered by legislation.

We normally call three members to ask questions before a delegate responds. Therefore, I ask Ms Logan to bank the questions asked.

How do Ms Logan's powers compare with those of her counterparts elsewhere in Europe and other parts of the world? The post is a new one and perhaps needs to be strengthened. I am interested in hearing Ms Logan's views on the issue in advance of the Minister for Health and Children coming before the committee next week.

I also welcome Ms Logan. She mentioned the Ferns Report. I am struck by the fact that there seems to be a weakness in the legislation allowing community care workers, particularly doctors, to investigate cases of abuse, sexual or otherwise, outside the family. Doctors who took steps in the Wexford case to investigate the children who had been abused on the steps of an altar by a priest in the area had to pull back. It was considered that they were moving beyond the role assigned to them under the legislation because the abuse had taken place outside the family. Oireachtas Members did not intend this to happen when they passed the legislation. I presume Ms Logan would like to see this rectified as soon as possible. I have raised the matter in the Seanad.

Which parts of the Children Act which have not yet been implemented does Ms Logan think would be most useful in helping those who have brought complaints to her office?

I welcome Ms Logan. The impression one gets from her presentation is that we do not know the extent of the problem or what services are available. That seems to be a poor start. When representatives of the One in Four group appeared before the committee recently, they told us they had tested the HSE helpline service for victims of abuse and only 7% had received a satisfactory response. The helpline was often out of order and many only got through to a voice mail system. One gets the impression that services are haphazard. It is all very well to conduct a review but it is not clear from what Ms Logan has said what the intended outcome of the review is. It is also not clear how bad things are but the impression being given is that we know very little and do not provide adequate services when we hear of instances of abuse. Ms Logan is obviously much more au fait with the situation than I am.

Ms Logan

On the powers of my office, it is appropriate that those who determine the substantive allegations of abuse are professionals who can work with children to elicit such information. The power of the HSE to do this is properly placed. I am not concerned, regarding the abuse the Senator described, about whether the office has the legislative teeth to investigate. I have the power, similar to other ombudsmen, of compellibility of information from witnesses. Where we can investigate, it is appropriate for us to investigate the HSE's response to children in cases of abuse. The Senator appears to be suggesting we should look at seeking more power to investigate the substantive issue of abuse but I do not believe that would be an appropriate role for the office.

The running of the office is based on a grant paid through the Department of Health and Children. The office does not have its own Vote. In practical terms, it has been suggested it is too small to have one. On the UN convention and the role of the office as a body which promotes the rights of children, it is viewed in a dim light at European level in Geneva that the office has not been given financial independence. If I am concerned about anything, it is the genuine independence of the office and how this can be achieved.

My office should be investigating how the system responds. I do not feel restricted in terms of its legislative powers in that regard.

I am surprised to learn that if the office discovers, for example, that a Department is not providing a service, it does not have the power to investigate. It can only investigate a Department in the context of services already being provided. If there is a clear case where a Department is not providing a service for children but should be, the Ombudsman for Children cannot investigate it. That presents a difficulty. I am asking if that aspect should be improved and the powers of the office strengthened in order that it can conduct such investigations.

Ms Logan

We should be allowed to conduct such investigations. Section 7 of the Act allows the office to seek legislative changes required for children and to child-proof any legislation being introduced. There is provision in the Act for the office to examine whether there are services not being provided but I am not concerned about this as we can deal with the issue through a legislative framework in the context of promoting childrens' rights and welfare.

Senator Henry referred to the issue of doctors investigating abuse outside the family. One of the most striking aspects of the Ferns Report, or rather, its aftermath, is that the public does not understand that the reality of childrens' lives is that abuse happens mainly in a familial context and is perpetrated by people known to them. I am not sure if I fully understand the issue raised by the Senator with regard to doctors investigating abuse.

Two doctors investigated the allegations of abuse at Monageer. One spoke to the children involved and examined them, while the other agreed there had been wrongdoing. Apparently, under the legislation, they should not even have done this much because the abuse had not taken place within the family. The legislation provides that only community care doctors can investigate abuse within the family.

It was the role of the health board which restricted——

We no longer have health boards.

No, but at the time investigations were restricted by the health boards. I presume this has carried on into the HSE.

There has been no change in the legislation. Does Ms Logan think it is advisable to change it?

Ms Logan

There should be legislative support because certainly——

This occurred outside the family. That is where the problem lies.

Ms Logan

In terms of equality for children, I do not see why there should be a different legislative framework to deal with familial as against non-familial abuse cases.

Would Ms Logan like to see the legislation changed?

Ms Logan

I would like to see parity for both groups of children. The situation described by the Senator does not make sense, whereby there is a different framework for children in the context——

I suggest Ms Logan examines the Ferns Report, in particular the section dealing with the children in Monageer.

Ms Logan

I will look at it.

The health board was found——

Ms Logan

I will read it and report back to the committee, if I may. Likewise, on the question of implementation of the Children Act, I would like to come back at a future date to give a more considered response, specifically to Senator Henry's question on the parts of the Act that need to be fully implemented.

Certainly.

Ms Logan

Deputy McManus is absolutely right, we do not know the full extent of the child abuse problem. I do not claim that my figures are in any way representative of the number of children abused or suspected of having been abused. It is very difficult to obtain national statistics because the data are kept by individual health authorities. The national picture is extremely difficult to obtain. One must also remember that our figures are based on those individuals who have come to our office. My concern is that the office may only be targeting particular members of the community. There are many vulnerable members who do not have the confidence or the ability to tell us about their concerns. The figure of 61 is not representative and we do not know the true extent of the problem. That is why we proposed a review.

The HSE has already informed that a review of child protection procedures has taken place but I wonder what type of review was conducted. Did it involve a group of professionals who selectively reported on the service in order that they could claim it was able to respond to children? I would like an exploration of the experience of children and adults in such situations. We have experience of two teenagers who visited our office directly in order to provide their testimony. These cases of abuse have been substantiated by the HSE and the testimonies reveal insights on how to improve the service.

Does Ms Logan meet the HSE to demand that it gets it act together in terms of providing data? The purpose behind establishing the HSE was to centralise services. Is she in a position to order that a review should include A, B and C or that telephone lines be working?

Ms Logan

Yes, but I am directly accountable to the Oireachtas. Therefore, I believe the best pathway is to put these matters into the public domain through, for example, this committee. I have met the director general of the new Office of Minister for Children to advise him of the matters which should be investigated by any review.

I too welcome Ms Logan and congratulate her on her work. We have only touched the tip of the iceberg in terms of our knowledge of these matters. Do we really know the actual level of abuse and need? Ever since the Kilkenny incest case, our interest is heightened for short periods when we receive various reports but then wanes until the publication of the next report. Any advice on how to improve ongoing investigations and the provision of services for this matter would be welcome.

Some sections of the Children Act 2001 which have not yet been introduced would be helpful to children in crisis. Under legislation, the definition of a child is a person under 18. The Act provided for a family conference system to ensure that children as young as 7 years of age who encounter crises do not go on to face more serious difficulties, such as being removed from their families. The commitment has not been made to provide the resources needed to fully implement the legislation.

When Mr. Justice O'Kelly — I think that is his name — exposed many of these issues, he drew a lot of attention. However, he was quickly silenced. We do not know what goes on in terms of the children in crisis who come to the attention of the courts. It is hidden from the Oireachtas and other people who are interested in these matters. I have tried on several occasions to get such information but it is impossible to find out more about the events which Mr. Justice O'Kelly and Mr. Justice Geoghegan were prevented from exposing in the courts. The Children Act is good legislation and contains sections which could address many of the difficulties children experience as they reach adulthood.

An interesting report was published by the Equality Authority and the National Youth Council of Ireland in February on inequality and how young people were perceived by adults. Children see their treatment at the hands of adults as unequal and unfair. There is a culture in which teenagers are regarded as binge drinkers who will inevitably encounter difficulties. That stereotype is utterly at variance with the facts. My experience of young people is that they are brilliant but have to face difficulties and pressures not experienced by previous generations. A minority are unable to cope but that must not allow us to stereotype all young people.

I ask the ombudsman to address the issue of cultural approaches. A programme was broadcast on New Year's Eve which described the problems experienced during the previous year. The misbehaviour of young people was a central concern of the media icons such as Gay Byrne who appeared on the programme. Such stereotyping alienates a generation which stands to make a contribution to society in the future. We should highlight these issues and explain to young people that we do not think in that way.

I wish to be associated with the welcome extended to the Ombudsman for Children, Ms Logan. Joint Oireachtas hearings are important fora and we should all take advantage of them.

When Ms Logan's appointment was being considered, she described her background in Our Lady's Hospital, Crumlin, and in Tallaght Hospital. I was struck that she was interviewed by children. That made a clear statement in terms of her intentions for the role.

Every day in the Dáil we consider a range of matters. I have found our work on the Neary report in recent days to be demanding and now we are focusing on children. In recent weeks I have devoted a considerable amount of time to a case of a child, Lynsey O'Brien, on which a US Congress hearing was held this week. This young woman fell overboard from a cruise liner off the Mexican coast on 4 January and her family are seeking the support of the Government in their campaign for justice. I mention the matter because we should focus on children such as her.

I hope our successors will not be discussing this era in 30 years' time. We are looking back at a period when many matters were hidden. It is important that we understand these are more enlightened times and I hope that will be acknowledged in the future.

I wonder about the relationship between the Office of the Ombudsman for Children and the HSE. I do not want to make many political points but as a backbencher I am not happy with the standard of replies I receive from the HSE. What kind of information does Ms Logan's office receive and is she happy with the responses? I want to ask about what some see as the lack of information and awareness about child protection services, how that is being dealt with and what progress has been made on it.

That leads to the question of the difficulties people experience in accessing services. That is important and the Ombudsman for Children has said her report refers to 61 cases and is not an investigation. I wonder what gaps there are. I support Deputy Neville's point on what is perceived by some as a lack of respect for the voice of the child. He made the point that not only children but many adults cause difficulties in communities. We read reports on how children try to get that message across and it is important that we listen to them. I wonder what the Office of the Ombudsman for Children does to face that challenge and make an impact, as I presume her function is to make an impact on behalf of children, give them a voice and deal with the issues as they see them.

Ms Logan made a point about the relationship between her office and the Oireachtas and I wonder if there are other ways we can assist her work, which we want to do. Although my secretary has the view that every hour brings a new crisis — maybe that is the lot of a politician — some cases that cross my desk are more important than others. I have to be careful because if somebody comes to me about a broken drain, that is important to them. I mentioned the Lynsey O'Brien case, which upset me greatly, as it would anybody, and the business before us has that potential. I wonder what else we can do to ensure this process is successful and that when we look back on this period we believe good progress was made.

I welcome Ms Logan. As always she brings insights into the problems we face with children. As a GP, I find the lack of information on how to access services for children in trouble is often appalling. Since the HSE took over I have good information on services for senior people. I recently received a booklet that allows me to access by name people dealing with different problems in my area. I do not have that for children. I recently had a case of a child in crisis and needing counselling. I know there are counsellors employed by the HSE who provide a good service, but I had difficulty finding them. I am sure this applies to the other GPs in my area. People peripherally but not fully involved with children, such as GPs, need that kind of information. Ms Logan would do a great service if she could move the HSE along that road in a uniform countrywide manner, rather than piecemeal. The old health board attitudes still exist and I do not expect the HSE to do a brilliant job overnight.

I also welcome Ms Logan and wish her every success. It is relatively early days for her office. She questioned whether she is reaching the most vulnerable people in our society. What steps has her office taken to make itself more accessible to all sectors of society? Were the 61 complaints to her office made by children, parents or by public representatives on behalf of the people concerned? Complaints to the general Ombudsman are made by public representatives and I have often done that. I encountered many cases of child abuse in my clinics. Because the Office of the Ombudsman for Children is so new we probably have not yet used it to the fullest extent. What happens once a complaint has been made and what is the average response time? My colleague from Tallaght, Deputy O'Connor, referred to the response of the HSE. Is the Office of the Ombudsman for Children getting full co-operation in a reasonably speedy response time?

Ms Logan

We have no overall picture of what is happening on child protection in Ireland. One of the concerns is that some of the children we have met who have been in these situations have described being unable to cope with the situation. They described becoming symptomatic, developing challenging behaviours and becoming difficult to manage at home and at school. Two children who have come to us have ended up in psychiatric institutions due to a lack of early intervention, support and counselling, as mentioned earlier. The right support systems are not in place. We do not intervene early enough. Many people come to us soon after the disclosure of the abuse. The biggest gap is at that early stage between a child saying he or she is being abused and getting into the system of validation and assessment. That is the area of greatest concern among people who come to us.

The question on our cultural approach to children is interesting. I was a little naive when I started this job assuming that we have a great history of minding, loving and respecting our children, but that has not been my experience in this job. Some thought the fact that I was interviewed by children was great and innovative, while others have told me it does little for my credibility that I was picked by a bunch of kids. We have much to do in trying to encourage the adult population in Ireland to take the voice of young children seriously. My experience of working with young people is that they bring fantastic energy to our work and are great motivators. If one gives them responsibility they take it and do the job very seriously. My experience of working directly with children has been positive. In 1998 the UN committee criticised Ireland for not hearing the voice of children in society, schools and families.

When I began this job I invited the HSE to establish liaison arrangements with me in order to have a dedicated liaison person for every HSE organisation we can investigate. Last summer my head of investigations and I ran seminars for those people in the HSE to explain our organisation, its remit and how we propose to do our business with them. This happened at an early stage. Because of that we have received a good response from the HSE on investigation or complaints. We have full co-operation and I have no concerns about how quickly people respond to us. That may also be due to the power of the office and the fact that an investigation might take place. I will refer to the voice of vulnerable children at the end of my response.

I will deal with the participation of children and the question of accessing children together. Last week a girl came to work at the office on transition year experience and said that the term "Ombudsman for Children" was somewhat "lah-di-dah". She asked how a boy from the Ballymun flats who needed help would be able to access my office. The style of the office has been a huge challenge for us. We in the office must get out and about to do our work. We are not a group of administrators who sit in an office doing paperwork. I have met thousands of children since I took up the post. There were 60 children in our office yesterday, where there is space for them to come to hear about our work. We deliberately target vulnerable groups and work with organisations that already have a good, trusted relationship with people in those communities. We work directly with groups that will give us access to those children, such as the Irish Association of Young People in Care, Barnardos and the ISPCC. Those organisations can identify vulnerable groups of children for us. That has worked successfully so far but it is an ongoing task and we must constantly think of new ways of doing things.

We have recently been developing a website directed at young people. Not every child has a computer but, although they may not have food in the fridge, they have mobile phones. We have set up an SMS service for children to access the office by text. The ISPCC has had considerable success with mobile phones as a means for children to access its services. Many hear about us in the newspapers but the vulnerable community must be a focus for us.

We have had the same difficulty with lack of information as that experienced by Deputies O'Connor and Fitzpatrick. The group that worries me most comprises children who do not have parents or adult advocates. Children come to us who are in care of the State or who have come from different countries without their parents. We have also experienced difficulties in respect of knowing where to direct them for help. For that reason, I strongly support the suggestion that pressure be exerted on the HSE to provide more information for those who can help such children.

Deputy Cooper-Flynn inquired about the origin of the complaints we receive. Approximately 15% came directly from children by telephone or e-mail. Last year I met a number of parliamentary groups and since then complaints have come to us via constituency clinics, which have become a very important point of access for people. I ask members, as individuals, to facilitate that access because people feel they can ask their representatives for assistance.

Deputy O'Connor asked how the joint committee could assist us. I would like to be able to approach it, as necessary, to seek support for the development of the office. We are seeking to develop in terms of resources and staffing and I am working with the Department of Finance on the matter. I would like to return intermittently to the committee if I need support in that regard. We need to strengthen the office, its independence and the legislative framework to which we work. There are a few exclusions in the Act with which I am not happy. These relate to children seeking asylum and unaccompanied minors. We have no investigative powers in regard to the actions of the Garda. I know there is a Garda Ombudsman Commission and we will continue to monitor the matter but particular issues relating to children need to be responded to by groups of people that are accustomed to working directly with them.

I certainly do not want to be part of a system on which people will look back in 30 years' and state that we did not listen to a child's voice. Children are often only listened to when they become adults. Children come to our office to be heard and it is part of my job to be their voice at this committee.

Ms Logan has been very comprehensive. How many people are in the office and can she give a breakdown of their occupations?

Ms Logan

The structure of the office is based on our legislative functions and mandate. The first section deals with complaints and investigations. We have one investigator and one case worker.

The second section deals with participation and communication, which is based on the European model of engaging directly with young people. Participation is fundamental to knowing one's rights. It is considered the enabler, or pathway, to understanding one's other rights. We have dedicated staff in that field but not enough to deliver the service. We have an agreement with the Department of Finance regarding the appointment of a further three people this year. In addition, I have sought the appointment of a further five, for which I will seek support from the joint committee. From the beginning, I have accepted that we must demonstrate the increased demand for staff and that the growth of the organisation will be incremental. I do not, however, want to lag behind, chasing my tail all the time and finding myself in exactly the same situation as those trying to provide services.

There are eight staff in total, with dedicated functions regarding complaint and investigation and participation, which involves making direct contact with children around the country, bearing in mind that we provide a national service.

The third section of the office deals with the development of policy and research. We have a legislative mandate to childproof any new legislation. For example, all 81 amendments to the Children Act were referred directly to us and we will report back on them to Cabinet later this month. We must also examine international treaties and Ireland's compliance with them, particularly the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child and European conventions.

They are the three strands of our office but there are only eight of us at present, which is not enough. I will return to the committee if I have problems negotiating an increase with the Department of Finance.

To develop that point, if somebody in Kerry, Limerick or Sligo makes a complaint to the office, does Ms Logan send somebody to interview the complainant? Is the child supposed to come to the office? Is the complaint handled in writing?

Ms Logan

It depends on the nature of the complaint. A mother who was the sole carer of a child with a disability needed us to go to her home to talk with her. We will provide that service for anybody, regardless of where they live.

Ms Logan will be aware of the report on the All-Party Committee on the Constitution on the rights of children. Does she have any views on it?

Ms Logan

I was very disappointed with the outcome. I appreciate that there was considerable dissent among members. In 1993, Mrs. Justice Catherine McGuinness was the first to recommend express rights for children in the Constitution and constitutional protection for the vulnerable child, rather than the average child. Ten years ago, the same committee recommended express rights in the Constitution. I cannot understand why, ten years later, particularly after the Ferns Report and other revelations in the intervening period, the committee recommended much less in the way of equality for children. It suggested equality for children but the latter are already equal in the eyes of the law. I am very disappointed by the committee's recommendation. We will make a formal, considered response to the Cabinet sub-committee, which I understand the Taoiseach has set up for that purpose.

Ms Logan might also write it to the All-Party Committee on the Constitution itself.

Ms Logan

We have done so.

I thank Ms Logan for attending and for her comprehensive and informative presentation. I speak for all members when I say that our door is always open to the Ombudsman for Children. If we can assist her in any way, we will be delighted to do so.

I referred in private session to the arrangements for our next meeting.

We will have two sessions on that morning. Is it agreed that we will commence our deliberations at 10 a.m. on Thursday next?

It will be quiet but I will be here.

Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.40 a.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 16 March 2006.

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