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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 30 Sep 2008

Central Mental Hospital: Discussion with Minister of State.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy John Moloney. I welcome him home to this committee and thank him for joining us. We look forward to the discussion.

I remind members that while they have absolute privilege the same does not apply to other witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I thank the Chairman for the welcome he has given me on my return to this committee. I have had the opportunity to read the transcripts from the last meeting and the prepared script has been circulated. I propose to read through the prepared script and address the issues later.

I am delighted to be here to discuss the redevelopment of the Central Mental Hospital, CMH. Accompanying me are representatives of the office for disability and mental health, Ms Dora Hennessey and Ms Joan Regan.

I acknowledge that most of this information is on the record already, thanks to Ms Bairbre Nic Aonghusa, but I have been invited here and so must go through some of the statements that have already been read into the record. If people are bored by hearing this for a second time, I must still proceed.

By way of background to the Government decision to replace the hospital I should explain that the CMH was first opened in 1850 and, although there has been some innovation and refurbishments of parts of the facility, it is clear that the hospital is no longer an appropriate place in which to treat and care for persons with mental illness. Many elements of the existing facility reflect the Victorian era and are increasingly unsuitable for the provision of best psychiatric care. In recent years we have been subjected to much criticism regarding the physical infrastructure of the Central Mental Hospital and the outdated facilities are simply not suited to their current purpose. They do not facilitate best practice care; for example, the design, structure and fittings of both the old and new buildings are unsafe and insecure. The bedrooms are too small and the walls are too thick to allow refurbishment incorporating something as basic as modern, en suite plumbing. Facilities in the wards for treatment groups, assessment and rehabilitation activities are extremely limited.

The 2007 report of the Inspector of Mental Health Services found that the building on the current site is unsuitable for the provision of inpatient services and cited examples such as the women's admission unit being too small, cramped and inappropriate for its purpose. The 2006 report also found that the Central Mental Hospital was an unsuitable location for delivering forensic services.

The European Committee on the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment has repeatedly criticised facilities at Dundrum, specifically its unsatisfactory physical environment and sanitary conditions. A recent report of the committee supports the move to redevelop the hospital.

While increased investment in the hospital over the years has, undoubtedly, led to the improvement in patients' living conditions and care through renovations and the provision of increased multidisciplinary staffing, the fact remains that the hospital is no longer an appropriate place for treating and caring for persons with mental illness. Unquestionably, the existing hospital facility must be replaced.

In 2003 the Minister for Health and Children established a project team chaired by the East Coast Area Health Board to progress the redevelopment of the Central Mental Hospital. A broad range of stakeholder interests were represented including the Department of Health and Children, the Central Mental Hospital, the National Development Finance Agency, the Irish Prison Service and representatives from the health boards.

The project team examined various options for the provision of an appropriate facility for the operation of the National Forensic Psychiatric Service. The options appraised included new building versus refurbishment of the existing facilities at Dundrum, building on the existing or a new site and a combination of building options. It is worth noting that the project team met on ten occasions in addition to meetings held by subgroups set up to examine specific tasks within the remit of the team. The project team recommended that the most appropriate option for the optimum delivery of patient care was for a new hospital to be built on a greenfield site with ready access to the M50 motorway to ensure accessibility for the population served. A site of 20 acres was required to provide capacity for 300 admissions per year.

In 2006, in keeping with the recommendations of the project team and having regard to the lack of appropriate alternative sites in the greater Dublin area, the Government approved the development of a new national forensic mental health facility at Thornton Hall in County Dublin. This decision is consistent with the recommendations in A Vision for Change, the report of the expert group on the mental health policy. While the decision was taken before my time in office, it represented the best option available to the Government at the time. I am satisfied that it was taken in good faith and with appropriate consultation.

One of my predecessors, former Deputy Tim O'Malley, met Professor Kennedy, the CMH clinical director, and later walked part of the Thornton Hall site with him. As I understand it, Professor Kennedy's view at the time was that while the location of the hospital adjacent to a prison complex was not ideal, the key priority was that a new hospital be provided as soon as possible. He was optimistic that the difficulties posed by having the hospital adjacent to the prison could be overcome by ensuring there was a clear boundary between the two facilities, that they would be managed separately and that the hospital would have a separate entrance and a separate address from the prison. He also suggested new governance arrangements be put in place to strengthen the independent identity of the hospital. A press statement which issued at the time, responding to concerns regarding the proposed location at Thornton Hall, made it clear that the concerns expressed by Professor Kennedy and the safeguards he had requested had been fully taken on board by former Deputy Tim O'Malley and the Department of Health and Children.

The decision to redevelop the CMH is undoubtedly a major step forward in the provision of quality care for persons with a mental illness. The new hospital facility will provide a therapeutic, forensic psychiatric service to the highest international standards. By building a new hospital on a greenfield site we will open up a range of opportunities for the provision of modern treatment and care. A purpose built, modern hospital, with all the necessary recreational facilities, coupled with the required specialist multidisciplinary staff, will offer the best possible treatment to those requiring forensic mental health services and significantly improve the physical living and treatment environments for patients. The new hospital will also provide much needed additional admission capacity.

The cost of developing the new enlarged 120 bed hospital at Thornton Hall will be met from the proceeds of the sale of the existing site in Dundrum and the balance of the funds realised will be ring-fenced for further investment in the mental health service. There are serious deficits in terms of the necessary physical infrastructure; therefore, the sale of the Dundrum lands will provide a very welcome financial boost and help us realise our vision for the mental health service, as outlined in A Vision for Change.

I am aware that concerns have been expressed that the proximity of the prison will lead to the criminalisation of the hospital and its client population and the stigmatisation of the mentally ill. However, there are already hospitals around the country which are adjacent to prisons, for example, the Mater Hospital beside Mountjoy Prison, Portlaoise and Limerick and I have never heard any suggestion this has led to the stigmatisation of the patients in these hospitals. I admit that as the majority of admissions to the hospital come from within the prison service, the location of the hospital adjacent to a prison will have operational benefits. However, that being acknowledged, the new hospital will constitute a separate capital project, completely independent of the prison complex. Furthermore, the new hospital will retain its identity as a separate, therapeutic health facility and there will be clear boundaries between the hospital and the prison.

There is also, I understand, a perception that the decision to locate the CMH beside the prison is the first step towards subsuming the hospital into the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform structures. Nothing could be further from the truth. The first principle of the United Nations principles for the protection of persons with a mental illness and the improvement of mental health care clearly states all persons have the right to the best available mental health care which shall be part of the health and social care system. The forensic mental health service is properly placed within the health service and I do not and would not support the transfer of responsibility for the CMH to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I can, therefore, assure the committee that the hospital will continue to be managed and directed by the Health Service Executive, as a therapeutic, health care facility with a governance structure which will remain distinct from that of the prison.

There has been criticism that the location in Thornton Hall is too isolated and that there will be problems for patients who are in the rehabilitation phase of their treatment. I am pretty certain Dundrum was an isolated location in 1850. I am confident that in time, just as in Dundrum, a vibrant community will build up around the new hospital in Thornton Hall. In the meantime I am sure Professor Kennedy and his staff will be innovative and consider ways and means of addressing this community access issue.

This joint committee has met many groups regarding the redevelopment of the CMH. It is clear that despite our differing opinions on the merits of the Thornton Hall site, we want the same thing — we want the best possible care for the patients in the CMH. However, while we engage in talk, the urgent needs of the patients for improved living conditions somehow gets lost. We also forget that there are persons in our prisons who are urgently in need of admission and treatment. We need a new hospital, we need a larger hospital and we need one sooner rather than later. I fear that unless somehow we can resolve concerns regarding the location of the new hospital, the development of a modern, much needed, national forensic mental health facility will be unnecessarily delayed. I am also conscious of the changing economic climate; unless the issue of the location of the hospital is resolved in the short term, the opportunity to develop a new hospital could be lost. In the circumstances, the priority at this time must be to minimise delays, so that we can build a new hospital as soon as possible.

I will be happy to answer questions.

I thank the Minister of State for his presentation.

I welcome the Minister of State and congratulate him on his appointment.

Nobody disputes the need for a new hospital. That is a priority for all of us. However, the logic of the Minister of State's argument is that we should have a new hospital at all costs and as quickly as possible regardless of anything else. It is not acceptable to me or my colleagues on this side of the House, and it is not acceptable to those who are involved in the care of patients. The Minister of State states that this decision is consistent with the recommendations in A Vision for Change. As my colleague, Deputy Dan Neville has pointed out, nowhere in A Vision for Change is it stated that the new central mental hospital should be near a prison. If one reads that document and UN documents in depth, one finds they very clearly state that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform should have no hand, act or part in the hospital and that the stigmatisation of patients remains a major issue.

I will go through what the Minister of State said here today because some of if needs to be corrected. He says he understands that Professor Kennedy's view at the time was that while the location of the hospital adjacent to a prison complex was not ideal, the key priority was that a new hospital be provided and he was optimistic that any difficulties would be overcome. Time has moved on and we are in new and unwelcome economic conditions. Equally, Professor Kennedy has made it clear that his current position, which he is entitled to change in the light of new evidence, which any good doctor or any individual would do on the basis of evidence, moving when the situation changes, is that he is opposed to this and has made known his concerns clearly and succinctly.

The Minister of State states that the cost of developing the new enlarged 120 bed hospital at Thornton Hall will be met from the proceeds of the sale of the existing site in Dundrum and the balance of the funds realised will be ring-fenced for further investment in the mental health service. Money was put aside for A Vision for Change and it was not spent. Furthermore, there is a report in this morning's newspaper that €8.4 million accrued from the sale of assets by the HSE still remains in a bank. It is hardly because we have such wonderful conditions for our mental health patients, not alone in Dundrum but in places such as Portrane and Balbriggan where patients have their blood taken in an outpatients department which has fungus growing on the walls. If the Minister of State visited these hospitals he might change his view.

The Minister of State states there are already hospitals around the country that are adjacent to prisons and he has never heard it suggested that this has led to the stigmatisation of patients. The Minister of State must not listen. Everybody told him this is a serious issue for patients, their carers, their relatives and other professionals looking after them. It is a serious issue for the Mental Health Commission, Amnesty International, Schizophrenia Ireland and the carers at, and friends of, the Central Mental Hospital.

The Minister of State must answer the question I will put to him when I finish. He says he is confident that in time, just as has happened in Dundrum, a vibrant community will grow up around Thornton Hall but that is not much good to the people who need a service today and those who are in the service, for whom he is responsible today and not at some time in the distant future. If there was no alternative we might not be having this discussion and we might only decry the fact that we had to go along with the plan, despite its not being ideal. However, there are alternatives but the Minister of State and the Government refuse to acknowledge that they can be availed of. The alternatives include the proposals put forward by the economist, Mr. Jim Power, to build on the site.

The Minister of State also said that we forget there are persons in our prisons in urgent need of admission and treatment. We do not forget that — we know it full well. However, we do not want them to be transferred to a hospital in the shadow of a prison, with all that entails for patients. In his presentation, he stated that in the circumstances the priority must be to minimise delays so that we can build a new hospital as soon as possible. I beg to differ. The priority must be the care of patients in the best possible environment. The environment proposed by the Department is not that environment. It is vehemently opposed by a whole range of people, none of whom has an axe to grind and all of whom are totally involved in the care of patients.

I cannot understand why the Minister of State persists with this plan. Everybody accepts there will be increasing stigmatisation of hospital patients. It will put people who have no criminal record, some of whom have committed no crime, in a hospital on a prison site. The Minister of State can talk about what might happen in the future but, today, people are concerned about stigmatisation, social isolation, the lack of rehabilitation prospects and the loss of key workers. Why does the Minister of State not listen to those at the coalface who use the service and have the care of patients to the fore of their concerns?

I am anxious for all members who have indicated to have the opportunity to ask questions so I ask members to condense their comments and focus on questions.

I congratulate the Minister of State on his elevation and welcome him to the committee, at least to a different seat from the one he used to occupy. When the Minister of State was Chairman of this committee he had an open mind and was willing to look at things in a fresh way despite being a Government backbencher. Accordingly, I ask him to look at this issue afresh. He said during his presentation that the decision appeared to the Government to be the right one at the time. His predecessor as Minister of State is no longer a Member of the Oireachtas and neither is the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform so we have a fresh slate and perhaps the Minister of State will take that as an opportunity.

The downturn in the economy is rather violent on the affairs of State, both in this country and in other parts of the world. Surely it requires that we look again at any project that involves property and the expenditure of large amounts of money. Most people would not regard that as an opportunity but one must find opportunities in everything.

The Minister of State said the project team had held ten meetings. Has he discovered any minutes which were taken at those meetings? Was any assessment given to the team or any documentation at its disposal when it made its decision? No representatives of service users or the families and carers of service users were members of the project team. Their voice was not taken into account in the decision-making process. Will the Minister of State comment on this? We have received strong and compelling presentations from persons with family members in the Central Mental Hospital who are appalled at the notion that their loved ones will be sent to a greenfield site with virtually nothing around it other than an occasional house.

I refer to the notion that a community might develop around the proposed site. The Minister of State has said a community grew around the hospital in Dundrum but that community was long established. It was probably a little village in the 19th century but Dundrum has been a community for a long time. The Minister of State and his colleagues have pointed out that other psychiatric hospitals are located near prisons. He mentioned Portlaoise in his own constituency and Limerick in mine. However, shops, homes, pubs and a third level institution are as near to the psychiatric hospital as the prison. The same is true in Portlaoise and Dublin. I wish people would stop trotting this out because it is absolutely not a fair comparison.

What documentation and expertise were available when the decision was made? Why were service users and their families not involved? Jim Power's proposal to sell part of the site to generate enough money to rebuild the Central Mental Hospital on its current site is logical. A raft of carer's and human rights organisations have signed up to the proposals, as have the Opposition parties. The Minister of State is an independent thinker. I hope he will have a fresh look at this.

I also welcome the Minister of State and thank him and his officials for attending.

We have discussed this issue on a number of occasions and a motion was tabled before the committee a few weeks ago, which proposed that the Minister of State should re-examine the proposal to ensure the facility, wherever it is located, would be staffed by health professionals and independently run and that the funds realised from the sale of the site would be ring-fenced for the development of mental health services. While everyone agrees the Central Mental Hospital needs to be replaced, having visited the hospital, I concur with the Minister of State's assessment of the physical conditions that it is no longer an appropriate place in which to treat patients. I would not like to think my nearest and dearest were being treated in such conditions and feel for the staff who deliver an excellent service in relatively primitive conditions. Reference was made to renovations and repairs but that would only paper over the cracks without obtaining best value for money. It would be difficult to renovate a building of such long-standing to a state-of-the-art facility.

Other patients require treatment to which they do not have access. Has the Minister of State considered regionally based facilities? For example, people could be looked after and treated close to their homes in facilities in the four regions. Many psychiatric hospitals, including one in my constituency, require drastic action and significant amounts of money. They are on valuable sites. Perhaps an approach in which people are treated closer to their homes could be examined. I will qualify my remarks by stating, "If the site is to be sold".

The Minister of State is committed to mental health issues and the provision of quality services for sufferers. I welcome his important pledge to ring-fence money. For too long, psychiatric services have been the poor relation in health spending. No psychiatric hospital would not welcome or does not need extra money.

In current economic circumstances, it would be regrettable were the opportunity to replace the Central Mental Hospital to be lost. Its patients and those seeking access to facilities need proper facilities.

Perhaps we shall take all of the questions and then let the Minister of State respond.

I congratulate the Minister of State on his appointment and welcome him to the meeting. He stated: "the Government approved the development of a new national forensic mental health facility at Thornton Hall, County Dublin. This decision is consistent with the recommendations in A Vision for Change." The expert group was not consulted on the hospital's location. We all agree with the call in A Vision for Change for a new hospital, but the Minister of State's implication is that the expert group approved of Thornton Hall. It did not.

The Minister of State referred to appropriate consultations. Did these include the carers, families, staff at the hospital, the Irish College of Psychiatry, the psychiatric profession and the hospital's patients? When we spoke to the hospital's staff and patients, we not only heard, but felt the latter's concerns regarding their opportunities for rehabilitation, going to supermarkets or shops, travelling into town for a couple of hours and taking courses.

I will reiterate Deputy Jan O'Sullivan's comments in that, in Limerick, the prison is not on the same site as the hospital. There is a public road between the separate sites and there is a third level institution across the road. It is an old part of Limerick; it has been built up for decades. An isolated unit comprising just a prison and a hospital in the countryside cannot be compared with an urban situation.

The Minister of State stated: "The cost of developing the new enlarged 120 bed hospital at Thornton Hall will be met from the proceeds of the sale of the existing site in Dundrum". He also stated: "I am also conscious of the changing economic climate; unless the issue of the location of the hospital is resolved in the short term, the opportunity to develop a new hospital could be lost." The Dundrum asset will be there anyway. Why would the economic climate change the decision on relocating the hospital? As clearly stated, the asset in Dundrum will go towards the construction of the new facility. The Minister of State said the extra funding expected from Dundrum will be ring-fenced for mental health. Why does the economic climate change the decision since the Minister of State ring-fenced the asset for it?

We visited the site at Thornton Hall and have outlined at length our concerns here. We have outlined them so often that we are burned out and we will not do it today because the Minister of State knows our views and those of all the groups. It is not necessary to repeat them today because they have been read into the record of this committee at least four to five times. When we were at Thornton Hall I asked a simple question, namely where the lookout tower for the prison would be. It will be just over the wall from the hospital. The lookout tower would appear to be not alone for the prison but also for the hospital. Officials from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the HSE told us about these decisions. We asked about travel to the prison and the hospital. They said there would be joint arrangements for the families of prisoners and patients to travel from the city centre to the two units. Is that separating it? Does that not confirm the stigmatising of the mental health patients? I could give several other examples of this on the ground. I refer not to the theory but to the practice of how the proposal will work. However I do not want to delay the meeting. We would need four or five other meetings to give all the examples I could give. Perhaps the Minister of State would respond to some of those points.

I wish to be associated with the warm welcome extended to the Minister of State and wish him well in his demanding brief. I also welcome his officials and those who have joined us in the Visitors' Gallery who are, clearly, interested in this situation. Due to other business I did not have the opportunity to accompany the Chairman to Dundrum in recent weeks, but I have been there on several different occasions. Deputy Reilly and I were there last year. Like the Chairman I was a long-standing member of the health board and any time I visited the hospital it was an emotional experience. I do not mind saying that because I always take the view that people in that situation should get proper care in proper facilities. I went out there on Sunday, just to "psych" myself up for this meeting, and had a long look at the 19th century wall, a forbidding structure in its own way. That marks the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum from other facilities, and other colleagues have mentioned facilities in their constituencies. Tallaght Hospital has the fine St. Loman's unit, and that has no wall, so I take the view that Dundrum is different. Anyone who has visited the centre, including the Chairman, knows what I am talking about and how valid that point is.

It is important we understand that we should make progress. Other colleagues have mentioned the changing political climate, and I was nearly afraid to turn on Sky News or RTE this morning. Whatever our political views and priorities, any of us would take the view that these kinds of facility have to continue to be very much part of the Government's commitment. At the last meeting I said I chaired a Dáil session in which the Minister of State seemed to be strongly in favour of the commitment in place. I would like to hear from him again today whether that is the clear commitment he is pursuing now, regarding his statement. The Fianna Fáil motion a couple of weeks ago was referred to. I cannot remember whether it used the word "review" but across the table we wondered what type of review the Minister of State and his officials are carrying out. Many issues are on the table, including patient care, facilities, the close proximity of other facilities at Thornton Hall and the economic climate. I would be interested in knowing if the Minister of State and his officials are reviewing this decision and if his commitment is firmly in place. We must leave this meeting knowing where we go with regard to this issue.

Colleagues across the table are entitled to their political views. All of us have concerns about this issue and we are right to say so from the Government benches. I do not want to defend the Minister of State more than he needs it but he is a long-term colleague of ours and I take the view that he listens carefully to what we say. I look forward to seeing the way he will go forward.

There are five other questioners and the Minister of State must leave us at 1.30 p.m.

I can stay until 2 p.m. but not later than that.

Perhaps we can get to the questions a little bit quicker. That will help us.

We have already congratulated the Minister of State but I do it again formally. As Chairman of this committee Deputy Moloney was very open, more so than most Government Deputies in that position. I hope that continues.

I will not go over the speech of the Minister of State line by line. We are here to convince the Minister of State that the decision made by his predecessors was wrong. It is that simple and that is our job today. The Minister of State has probably heard all the arguments and read the contributions of delegations on the last day this committee met so he is well versed in the arguments. Each of us is convinced that this issue is about best care for the patient. With mental illness, it is not just about the individual, it is about the type of society the person comes from and the community to which he or she hopes to return. It is, I hope, about families and those who continue to visit patients — friends, extended families, mothers, fathers or siblings. We try to encourage this because we know that often it does not happen.

We also know that the physical building at Dundrum is not the best but Dundrum is a magnificent place as a setting. There are gardens that must have taken 100 years to mature and one will not have this in another setting. We know it is not just about individual care but about a place where one can think alone and have some space. That is as important as the building.

How people access the building is important also. I am not from Dublin and would have to use public transport to get to Thornton Hall if I were to visit. The last day we were at Thornton Hall it struck me that it is in the middle of the countryside, difficult to find and takes a long time to get to. That is one of the major considerations.

Listening to patients in Dundrum, we heard that just before release they are able to have a cup of coffee with visitors in a local restaurant, go to the cinema or attend a local night course. These are things we all take for granted but in these situations the patients can be accompanied by their visitors. That will not happen at Thornton Hall.

If we are to seriously look at how we are to treat people with mental illness, this needs to be addressed. I agree that in years to come a community will grow up around it. In 100 years I am sure there will be a magnificent mature garden and that all of those things will happen. God knows, looking at the stock exchanges over the past few weeks, none of us has a crystal ball. I am sure that all of those things will happen in the future. What disturbs me, however, is that we have them now, in a particular setting, which has the capacity to take a new building.

We are all agreed that a new building is necessary, and it can be achieved in this manner, probably with much less disturbance than that necessitated by Thornton Hall.

Windy arguments were being made from day one. I am sure people were genuine in their decision that a greenfield site combining two buildings would save the State money and achieve a state-of-the-art facility. However, I believe there is always an alternative world view, and sometimes it is the right course to take. In this instance the Government should be big enough to listen to the alternative view and take into account the points being made by those directly affected. We all know that people can change their minds and in so doing they sometimes make the right decision.

We are here to plead with the Minister of State to take another look and listen to an alternative view. He should listen to people who are not here to dump on the Government or kick people around for making a wrong decision. They are here to ensure that the best possible choice is made for the sake of people who need treatment and those who have to visit them and hopefully end up, in due time, as their carers in a community setting.

I welcome the Minister of State and wish him well. I trust that he will take grave notice of what we are saying to him today, even at this late stage. I genuinely believe that what is happening at Thornton Hall is a victory for economics over patient care. I am in the Oireachtas a long time and have seen a good deal of ring-fencing. I will not take up the Chairman's time, but will abide by his ruling. However, when Thornton Hall was purchased, it was regarded as an expensive piece of property. The Government is seeking to get value for money, and it is now a two for one exercise. The day Thornton Hall was bought as a prison site, not a thought in the world had been given to the possibility of locating a mental hospital there. The Government was lumbered with a prison site which was considered to be extraordinarily expensive, even by Dublin property standards at the time. If my argument is correct, then that is a shame.

As several colleagues from different parties have indicated, the Dundrum site is an enormously valuable asset, regardless of the state of the property market. If that site could not be sold, along with its assets, there would be something fundamentally wrong with the economy. The Minister of State represents a rural constituency, just as I do, and so we have experiences in common as regards stigma. I fought for years — this has nothing to do with mental health — against the tag of the old county homes. They were very well run and elderly citizens were delighted to avail of them. However, the minute an alternative was mooted, moving away from the old workhouse type of slogan, they were gone. The same thing will happen as regards Thornton Hall. People will be sent to "Thornton prison" from every court in the land, and that is the term that will appear in the papers all over Ireland. Rapists, conmen, thugs and drug addicts of every description from every part of the country will eventually finish up in the prison at Thornton Hall. That is why it is being built. Members can rest assured that this will be the image of the prison all over the country, not just in Dublin. No matter what trees are planted between the mental hospital and the prison, it will be regarded as Thornton Hall prison. The Minister of State was not in office when this decision was made. I must say, on behalf of the people committee members have met, it is time to pause and reflect on the matter. The likes of Professor Kennedy and others have changed their minds and now believe it will not be good. Therefore, I ask the Minister of State to re-examine the issue. The Government is on the wrong road.

I congratulate the Minister of State on his new role of responsibility for equality, disability and mental health issues. He could make his mark on the portfolio by reviewing or reversing this decision. However, I am disappointed that there is no evidence of this in his speech. Has the decision been reviewed? It is clear from reading the Minister of State's script that he is implementing a decision already taken, hastily, by Ministers who are no longer Members of the Houses. It is very disappointing that the Minister of State in so much of his speech quoted views held by Professor Kennedy at the time. This is disingenuous because he has changed his point of view and elaborated on it but the Minister of State did not give credence to this in his presentation.

There is no need for me to cover old ground, as the Minister of State knows the presentations made here. His officials told us at the last presentation that the group which had recommended this course of action had done so primarily as a technical decision reached without the involvement of many doctors or others working in the area. It was, more or less, an in-house decision. There is much scope for a review of the decision on economic grounds and patient care reasons. It is disappointing that the decision is to be neither reviewed nor reversed.

Regarding the ring-fencing of funds, the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, told the committee some months ago that she was trying to find out where the €25 million had gone that was missing from the mental health budget. What confidence can we have about the ring-fencing of the mental health budget, given what has happened to it in the past year?

Like everyone else, I wish the Minister of State the best of luck in his future career. He was an able Chairman of this committee.

We have spent hours debating this issue and met all of the people concerned, including patients, administrative staff and parents of patients. We have also visited the Thornton Hall site. I missed a committee meeting two weeks ago at which the committee agreed to recommend to the Minister that this decision on the Thornton Hall development be reviewed before a final decision was made. We wished to ascertain that we were pursuing the right policy. We are making a decision that will impact on the lives of mental health patients for perhaps 200 years. It is important, therefore, that we do this the right way without making mistakes.

I have an open mind on the issue: I support some of the things that have been said and disagree with others. This is a major decision and I ask the Minister of State, a considerate man who proved this trait as Chairman of this committee, to be open to suggestions that will ensure we will make the right decision.

We all agree that we need a new hospital on a greenfield site. We have visited the site at Thornton Hall. However, the site at Dundrum is also big, over 30 acres, if I remember correctly, half of which could be used for a new hospital. It has been mentioned that the setting is appropriate; for example, the gardens would take 100 years to be cultivated elsewhere. Such top-class gardens can form part of mental health care. That is not to say new gardens could not be created in Thornton Hall. While I love the countryside, I also know that access to facilities such as cinemas, shops and cafés is an important aspect of rehabilitation.

When the Minister makes her decision she must look at all aspects of the question. The neighbours in Dundrum are used to having a mental hospital in their community and do not object to it. Perhaps it will merge successfully into a new area. I accept that the Government made a policy decision on this matter two or three years ago. I am a member of a Government party and I will support the Government. However, I ask that we do the right thing for the future and that when we make a decision we can stand over it.

I am delighted Deputy Moloney has been appointed Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children. I concur with all the opinions expressed by members of the committee. I know the Minister of State's reputation. He thinks for himself and is his own man. He did an excellent job, with Deputy Neville, in raising the issue of suicide.

However, I have a serious problem with this issue. I do not see a single reference in the Minister of State's speech to the presentations given to the committee by the Mental Health Commission and the Irish Mental Health Coalition. The speech did not refer to the two professional groups who spelt out to the committee why the Central Mental Hospital should not be alongside Thornton Hall. I exonerate the Minister of State from that. As Senator Fitzgerald said, the Minister of State could make his mark as one who makes political decisions for the good of the people and of the patients of the Central Mental Hospital.

I was shocked when the Minister first announced this decision in the Seanad. The decision to close the hospital in Dundrum was made for purely financial reasons. I do not care what the departmental official who is present thinks of this matter.

I ask Senator White to withdraw that remark. My officials are simply briefing me.

Senator White, it is not appropriate to make comments about officials who are present.

I withdraw the reference.

This is a wrong political decision made for purely financial reasons. It is impetuous and rash. Everyone was driven crazy by the prospect of selling property for large amounts of money. The decision is morally wrong. I am furious.

The Mental Health Commission is a Government body. Its principal function is:

to promote, encourage and foster the establishment and maintenance of high standards and good practice in the delivery of mental health services and to take all reasonable steps to protect the interests of persons detained in approved centres under this Act.

The commission gives seven reasons the hospital should not be transferred to Thornton Hall.

I do not object to the Minister of State's decision for any personal reason. However, I feel passionately about this issue. I cannot simply toe the party line. If I were to do so, I might as well stay at home. I have no interest in being in Leinster House if I cannot give my honest opinion. The Department wants to do on the site what was decided by the previous Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. That is how Departments work. It is the politicians who make the decisions, not the civil servants. I want to be in an establishment where the politicians make the decisions. The Minister has a tremendous opportunity to review this decision and sort this out on behalf of the people who are currently in the hospital in Dundrum and those who will be there in the future. I apologise for going on, but I feel very emotional about this issue. I find it very upsetting that people who are in Dundrum hospital through no fault of their own should be associated with a prison. I had reason to visit the Midlands Prison in Portlaoise on Saturday. It is heavy stuff for families of people who are mentally ill to have to go on the same bus as the families of prisoners. It does not bear thinking about. I am optimistic and quite prepared to wager that the Minister will not allow the CMH to be built adjacent to Thornton Hall.

I thank members for their questions. In inviting the Minister of State to respond I acknowledge that this is no honeymoon visit to the committee for him. He will appreciate the deep feelings of members on all sides of the House with regard to this issue.

The focus seems to be on Mr. Jim Power's suggestion to dispose of part of the lands at Dundrum and to build the new hospital in Dundrum. I understand that while that might solve the problem in respect of a central mental hospital, the Government's objective is to look further and to generate funds not only for a new hospital but for four regional centres. I would like clarification of that.

The case members have made is around proximity to the prison. Deputy Conlon referred to the motion we passed here some weeks ago, calling on the Department to re-examine the issue to see whether the value of the site could be maximised and to examine alternatives to Thornton Hall. I am sure the Minister of State will explain to the committee whether that has happened in the interim.

I thank the Chairman and everybody who contributed to the debate. I have taken note of the questions. If I omit to answer any, I do not mind being reminded.

I did not come to this meeting to bully or to push my opinion on members. It is not a matter of brushing up my notes to get them by the committee. Nothing could be further from the truth. Deputy Reilly reminded me trenchantly that I am responsible. I am glad to be responsible. I sought this job because I have a passionate interest in mental health. I am not a doctor but I have a good background knowledge of the difficulties in the service. I do not need an invitation to visit Portrane. If I have time later I will explain what I am doing in that regard.

I have already outlined to the officials in the Department what I intend to do. As the Minister of State with responsibility I intend to abide by what was put in place in A Vision for Change. I make the point, in response to a point properly raised by Deputy Neville that it was never the intention to suggest in A Vision for Change that the Central Mental Hospital should be located beside Thornton Hall, although the prepared script might indicate otherwise. That is not the point I am making. Deputy Reilly makes the point that people here have no axe to grind. Nor have I. There is one thing I intend to do. In January next, A Vision for Change will celebrate three years in existence. It includes a ten-year programme to deliver many things, including the new Central Mental Hospital, regional centres and intensive care rehabilitation units throughout the State and many other projects.

Within two weeks of my taking this appointment I sought a meeting with the HSE to establish how I would deliver that vision for change. I intend to do so by selling properties throughout the State, of which much has been said over the years. I will explain my position before I come to the central issue. A Vision for Change has the consistent support not just of the political process but also of the medical world. Part of the plan involves the funding of developments, regardless of the downturn, by maximising the value of properties. Without any publicity, I have started that process by visiting hospitals. St. Ita's Hospital, Portrane is on my list. However, it will not appear in the papers or be heard from the plinth because I do not do business in that way. However, I will ensure value is secured to drive A Vision for Change.

It was put to me that this amounted to a hospital at any cost but that is not the case. I was also asked what guarantee there was that the funding secured from the sale of properties would go into mental health. Within three or four weeks of taking my appointment I asked the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney what guarantee there was that, if I propelled the sale of properties, the funding secured would go directly into mental health. I was given that guarantee and it was confirmed at a meeting with the HSE some three weeks ago before four Ministers of State and officials from the Department. Funding secured from the sale of properties is already in banks and is there specifically to provide for the mental health agenda under A Vision for Change. I have never taken the view, whatever papers I have read, that there was an attempt by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to subsume mental health into its own ambit.

I accept many of the points Deputy Paul Connaughton made. He suggested that the Government bought Thornton Hall and decided to incorporate the Central Mental Hospital because of the looming economic difficulty. However, the facts are different. The Department of Health and Children was asked to consider the site a long time after it was purchased so I do not see the connection. As Deputy Reilly said, times have moved on and the €8.4 million is not a figure one can throw out casually for properties that have been sold. The consistent policy for the Central Mental Hospital in A Vision for Change is secured.

I will provide some background to the visit to the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum. Everybody — whether politician, public representative or individual — has the right to change his or her mind but I have a huge difficulty when people suggest there was no consultation. The impression is being given that it is only for economic reasons that the decision was taken on Thornton Hall and the Central Mental Hospital. I hear the points made by members and I do not want to take up the committee's time but I wish to read into the record the timescale of events. It was December 2000 when the initial discussion began. I have even heard it said that the possibility of a new central mental hospital was mentioned in 1966. There was consultation and people met on ten occasions

I am not here to mention Professor Kennedy.

He is mentioned in the Minister of State's script.

I acknowledge that. I read it a few minutes ago and I do not have a loss of memory. From now on, I do not intend using this issue. I will not refer to anyone else from now on. I am making the point that Professor Kennedy was involved in the discussions about a site.

After the event.

In December 2000 the authorities met to discuss the location of a new central mental hospital and three years later, the Minister for Health and Children established a project team to advise on the proposals. The team met on ten occasions that year and all the issues regarding location were discussed. The facts are there. I put them out in consultation and not in response to a belief that people are not entitled to change their minds. They are entitled to do so.

I take Deputy O'Sullivan's point that people should have an open mind about this. I have an open mind and a decision has been taken by Government and not by officials regardless of what Senator Mary White says. Whether people subscribe to this or have a difficulty with this, the suggestion that officials passed the decision up the line is not true. I have an open mind on the issue and I support the location of the Central Mental Hospital at Thornton Hall.

Three years have elapsed and little has happened. I hope to be in this job for three or four years and I would like to be able to say when I leave that a new mental hospital was built. I read the transcript of the previous joint committee meeting and the comment quite properly made by Deputy O'Flynn that between 70% and 80% of the patients in the hospital in Dundrum are from Dublin. Under the new proposal, the new Central Mental Hospital will have four regional centres and the funding generated by the sale of the Dundrum site will provide for the acute rehabilitation units contained in A Vision for Change. While I accept the strategy does not state the hospital should be built at Thornton Hall, it outlines what should happen with the funding generated by the sale of the Dundrum site.

Deputy O'Sullivan asked about the meetings and the reason the carer's groups were not involved. I have not read the reports on the ten meetings and I am following the Government decision. The carer's groups had not been established when the project team was appointed. Since their establishment, they have been invited to participate. My responsibility is to deliver change under A Vision for Change. The hospital can be built and it should not be stigmatised because it is located beside a prison. It is up to us ensure they are looked upon separately. The project team, with certain reservations, proposed separate entrances, campuses, access points and governance. Portlaoise has two prisons and a psychiatric hospital and it is difficult to suggest they are not connected.

I refer to the issue of whether other sites were examined. This is the only site on offer and it will provide an economic dividend. The Department of Health and Children has a free site and that is a consideration in the current economic climate. However, the real objective is to have everyone work together to reduce the possibility of a stigma becoming attached to the available site in order that we can provide what is required at Thornton Hall. That is also my response to Deputy Conlon's question on what other sites are available. It is not for me to open consideration of other sites. I have been charged with a particular responsibility and I intend to deliver a central mental hospital. I need not waste my time or energy or that of the committee in painting a picture of what is available at Dundrum. I am not here to annoy patients' parents and friends. Rather, I am present to say funding is available to not only provide a new central mental hospital, but also to deal with the issues highlighted in A Vision for Change.

Deputy O'Connor asked me directly whether the Government was reviewing its decision. The answer is "No".

Deputy Kathleen Lynch asked how long it would take to build support and community services. It will take a considerable time. We must address the social deficit mentioned in the document. I must consider what is available, what can and will be available if the necessary supports can be provided. It can be done.

I do not agree with Deputy Connaughton's point on the victory of economics over patients. Rather, it is a victory for patient care. It is important to take into consideration what is available at Dundrum. I do not want to play the old game of telling people that I will listen to and consider everyone's point of view or wasting the time of the committee or those who have attended to listen to the exchanges. The Government is committed to providing a central mental hospital in the general area of Thornton Hall.

Regarding value for money, the decision has not been made on economic grounds. Rather, it has been made to ensure a commitment to what was laid out in A Vision for Change. The ring-fencing issue arises regularly. One can check the record to assess what I am about to say is policy, namely, that the funding to be secured from the sale of properties, including the facility at Dundrum, will be used to provide for the commitment given in A Vision for Change and nothing else. One can assume that I am speaking as someone who is new in the job who has been taken in by commitments, but this is the position. There are seven years left in which to deliver on A Vision for Change. I have support.

Deputy Aylward asked me whether it was the right decision. I hope it is and that previous decisions have been contradicted and examined. In terms of cancer services, for example, we have never received uniform support on any proposal. Many medical personnel are opposed to this decision. To answer Senator White's question, I have met the Mental Health Commission and the Irish Mental Health Coalition and I am aware of their opposition. The Government has listened to their opinions, but remains consistent in pressing its policy.

Following my appointment, one of my first meetings was with the economist Jim Power and Professor Harry Kennedy on Vincent Browne's programme. While I was put under serious pressure on how I could stand over the fact that there had been no consultations, I did not want to go down that road because I believed there had been consultation. That evening I pointed out why the use of the site at Dundrum could not be considered. I will take the opportunity to go over these reasons again.

The first reason is that a phased construction would be necessary. The construction period would be longer than normal due to security restrictions. That matter was examined by the Department some time ago. The optimum site for the new national forensic mental hospital is 20 acres. The reduced site would be constricted with less access to the green areas. Anyone who has seen the site will see this. If 15 acres were retained in Dundrum, only 16 acres would be available for disposal. This would mean considerably less funding would be realised for the new developments and investment in mental health services, which is part of the scheme. This is not just for the relocation of the Central Mental Hospital but funding in the whole service.

I hope I have answered the questions asked. If not, I will take further questions. I have read the transcript of last week's meeting. Officials coming into these meetings are here to support. I have been in this job for four or five months and from that experience Ms Nic Aongusa is an excellent, top class official. I totally refute any insinuation that she is anything less. Senator White made some points about her——

I stand over what I said.

I also stand over my opinion that Ms Nic Aongusa is an excellent official. If one examines the climate of the background to this debate, there has been much wondering whether certain events took place and certain timescales panned out as suggested. I asked Ms Nic Aongusa to put before the committee the exact record. That is how things should be done.

I thank the Minister of State for his frank and unambiguous responses to the questions raised. I will take very brief supplementary questions.

Has Minister of State consulted the Mental Health Coalition, Schizophrenia Ireland and the Central Mental Hospital Carers Group?

I did not say I had consulted anybody but that I had met various groups——

Does it remain the case and is it fair to say several interested groups have not been consulted?

If the Deputies ask their questions, we will go back to the Minister of State, otherwise everybody will jump in.

I want that matter clarified.

I wish the Minister of State well. He is starting with a clean sheet and has an opportunity but has chosen to take the wrong road. He has said he believes what he is doing is right but others see it very differently. With due respect, those who see it differently are those who are involved, use or have loved ones in the service. In a democracy we must listen to the people concerned. If we must maximise the sale of the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum and if Thornton Hall is the wrong site, as is clear to me for all the reasons pointed out, surely the middle ground is to examine the HSE's extensive land bank in urban areas to find an alternative site. That would get us out of this sticky mess. Like the Minister of State, my bottom line is that I want what is best for the patients. I get angry and become trenchant at times because I do not see this being delivered with the plan for the site at Thornton Hall. I see something else. I see finances being given greater consideration than the patient. I see a decision that emanated from a group which involved a Progressive Democrats Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Minister for Health and Children and a Minister of State——

The Deputy made these points earlier. Does he have a question?

Will the Minister of State please examine the other sites and clarify with whom he has consulted?

I am disappointed with the Minister of State's reply because the only basis on which he made his decision seems to be that previous officeholders made the decision. The second reason I heard concerned time, that he wants to achieve it within his watch and in a reasonable period of time. I accept the second point that we want this to happen in a reasonable period of time because of the conditions we witnessed when we visited Dundrum but I am very disappointed that the Minister of State did not read the minutes and whatever was involved in the decision making process. In response to my question he said the carers' groups had not been involved in the original decision making process because they had not been established. Surely to listen to those who will be most affected by the decision is a very good reason to review it.

I wish to respond to the one argument made by the Minister of State for his refusal to review this decision. The only reason given was that it had been decided already. The Minister of State read out notes on why the current site was not considered appropriate because of the need for a phased development due to security issues. I read Mr. Jim Power's proposal and attended the meeting at the Mansion House in which it was unveiled. It was well presented. Mr. Power is not associated with the more caring side of politics — we usually associate him with the economic side — but he made a strong case. The Minister of State has been very clear but everybody is disappointed at the conclusion he has reached. Within the timeframe set there is still scope to build an alternative building on the current site, blocking off the building site from the current operation until such time as one could transfer from one to the other. I do not know how much time has been given to examining the proposal but the Minister of State should still examine it.

I apologise to the Minister of State for not being here during his presentation but I have read it since. I welcome him to the committee for the first time since he left the post of Chairman. He is greatly missed but has been well succeeded by Deputy Ó Fearghaíl.

Having been a member of the committee when it passed motions requesting that something be examined or reviewed, the Minister of State is aware that we are always disappointed when motions passed by the committee are not taken up by the relevant Minister. We asked that this issue be examined and it is a disappointment to the committee that this has not been done.

Given that the original working group made the recommendation to go for a greenfield site, to which I was leaning after listening to all sides in the debate, what is plan B if planning permission is not granted for the relocation of the Central Mental Hospital on the Thornton Hall site? Should another site become available, whether through a land bank held by the HSE or another donation, would it be possible to incorporate it into plans at that stage? Would it be kept in the plans of the Minister of State in the event that the plan for Thornton Hall is not successful?

I agree with what Deputy Flynn has said about the contingency plan if planning permission is not granted. When the Minister of State was Chairman of the committee, he believed in the influence it could exert and the importance of Ministers of State listening. A number of members, independent of the party to which they belong, do not want to see the project going ahead. The Joint Committee on Health and Children is examining the issue and many of us believe it is not the right decision because we have visited both sites and listened to the regulatory body and the coalition of mental health groups. It is amazing that the project is still going ahead when the logical and professional arguments are against it. I would like the Minister of State to take on the mantle as he was a superb Chairman of this committee. He will have noticed that all members on all sides believe in him. I would like him to bring back to the Ministers for Health and Children and Justice, Equality and Law Reform the view that many committee members have a serious problem with the plans for the hospital. We should count the number opposed to the decision and explain why. Otherwise, the committee is only a talking shop. I do not want to be argumentative or irritating, but I want the Minister of State to know that I stand over what I said the last day. I was a public servant for more than 20 years.

I should prefer if we did not get back into that, again, please.

I just want to say it is highly unusual for one public servant to embarrass another in an Oireachtas committee.

I repeat that I asked the official, Ms Bairbre Nic Aongusa, to set out clearly the background to the decision, and that is all she did. It is not by way of embarrassing anybody. Hopefully, we are far——

It was embarrassing——

I am sorry if it was, but it is also embarrassing for me to hear this discussion again. I am just making the point that it was an effort to bring some clarity to the issue, and I do not want to waste time on this.

People keep pointing out to me that this is a PD project, and so forth. I am not interested in that. I hope the members accept this. Since I was appointed Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children I have not been instructed by my senior Minister to the effect that this must happen at Thornton Hall. I make this very clear. I could pretend that we have to make a decision because of the pressure and because so many groups were on to us. I too spent three hours in Dundrum and had exchanges with Professor Kennedy and his people. I shall not go into this.

Deputy Flynn asked a relevant question as to whether there is another site and a plan B. There is no plan B. Plan A has been lying there for three years and little has happened. Quite obviously, if a suitable site could be identified and developed, quickly, there would of course be a possibility, and I cannot rule that out. However, I cannot tell the committee that we are going to slide off in another direction while another year goes by. As far as I am concerned, unless the Government proposes another site, the reality is that this is the one available and I shall support it.

I take the point made by Deputy O'Sullivan. It is not a matter of just following on from what someone said. I was briefed on the background to this. I come to this meeting knowing there is little or no support for this proposal. However, I am trying to deliver a new central mental hospital. It has been based at Dundrum since 1850 and the conditions are atrocious. I do not need to go into this since everyone knows it. I want to promote and develop the best possible service for people in the Central Mental Hospital.

Thank you for your presentation and for the very frank manner in which you have addressed the concerns raised by members. We all join in wishing you well in your brief and success in delivering the improved services required throughout the country.

We have a motion before the committee which Deputy Reilly wants to refer to.

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