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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Jan 2009

National Cancer Screening Service.

I welcome Dr. Alan Smith, consultant in public health medicine from the National Cancer Screening Service. I apologise for the delay. I draw attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I thank Dr. Alan Smith for appearing before us and his help to the committee which we anticipate will be useful to us in working on a report on the implementation of the primary health care strategy. I invite Dr. Smith to make his presentation.

Dr. Alan Smith

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to appear before the committee. I am a consultant in public health medicine with the National Cancer Screening Service. Earlier in my career I trained as a general practitioner. It is with that background in primary care that I have contributed to this submission to the committee. On behalf of the National Cancer Screening Service I extend my thanks for the invitation.

We are tasked, as the committee is aware, with the provision of population-based cancer screening programmes, including BreastCheck and CervicalCheck. We were keen to take up the invitation to appear before the committee so that our work could be seen against the wider health care context of disease prevention and health promotion in the community. There are many elements that contribute to the success of a population cancer screening programme but none more so than maximising coverage among the target population. The National Cancer Screening Service utilises screening promotion methodologies to inform and target populations about BreastCheck and CervicalCheck and to encourage attendance by developing and implementing effective promotion strategies. The evidence base suggested a multi-strategy approach to promoting screening and encouraging attendance is effective. Essentially this means there is nobody we will not talk to and no place we will not visit in terms of conferences or community groups if it can improve awareness and uptake of our screening programmes.

NCSS screening promotion officers are the individuals who implement these strategies. That includes working with GPs, practice nurses, public health nurses, community networks and specific groups linked to Traveller, disability and women from socially disadvantaged areas. The success of such an approach as that undertaken for BreastCheck in Dublin's north inner city — a traditionally low uptake area — is clear from the 40% average acceptance of invitation to screening. Following an intensive targeted screening promotion campaign in the area in late 2007, the uptake rate to screening reached 71%, which was a significant improvement. This is the highest acceptance rate ever achieved by BreastCheck in such a disadvantaged area. This would not be possible without our strong working relationship with primary care professionals and community groups.

The primary medical care setting is one of the key aspects to CervicalCheck, the cervical screening programme, as it is in these areas where 1.1 million women can avail of a free cervical smear with a smear taker of their choice. This has been achieved by the development of a national contract for the provision of these services between NCSS and registered smear takers in a primary care setting. At present there are just under 4,000 smear takers in GP practices, women's health, family planning, and Well Woman clinics nationwide. CervicalCheck also facilitates the development and delivery of accredited training programmes and education in primary care settings. In partnership with the Irish College of General Practitioners, the National University of Ireland Galway and the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, CervicalCheck delivers these accredited programmes of smear taker training throughout Ireland.

Although not yet a screening programme in terms of colorectal or bowel cancer, it is the opinion of the NCSS expert advisory group on colorectal screening, who compiled the expert report submitted to the Department, that primary care will play a critically important role, similar to its role for BreastCheck, in promoting any future screening programme and improving participation rates. It is noteworthy that this will be the first population screening programme that will involve men, which will bring unique challenges in getting their participation.

Worldwide we have also entered the era of HPV vaccination. The opportunity is here now to adopt a primary and secondary prevention model for cervical cancer control. What do I mean by that? Primary prevention is vaccination, secondary prevention is screening. They are complementary approaches to cervical cancer control. In that context, linkages and co-operation between primary care settings and the NCSS will be essential not only in evaluating the effectiveness of a HPV vaccine in the years ahead but also in informing changes to the operational structure of the cervical screening programme in the future.

I hope this brief summary of our interaction with primary care professionals and our community groups will prove useful to the committee today and tomorrow as it listens to the submissions from the professional bodies. They will, I am sure, outline in detail the many challenges that face primary health care professionals as we move the focus of our health care system away from a hospital-based system to that of primary-based care. There is no doubt in my mind that the development of a properly integrated primary care service can lead to better health outcomes for patients, improve their overall health status and result in the most appropriate and efficient use of what are limited resources.

To maximise health gain, as a public health doctor and someone who sees medical care from a population point of view, it is an absolute necessity that the planning of primary medical care services is based on evidence of need and service provision on the basis of equity, quality assurance and comprehensiveness.

I thank Dr. Smith. I wish to ask a few specific questions in regard to screening programmes. Is the National Cancer Screening Service on target to extend screening for BreastCheck to every county in the west and south by the end of 2009 and, if not, what is the current target? What age range is planned to be covered under the planned bowel cancer screening programme? When will the health technology assessment report on the roll-out of a free population based national bowel cancer screening programme be published? Is work on the programme to ensure it meets the planned commencement date in 2010 on target? Will the quality assurance guidelines for bowel cancer being prepared by the European Commission be incorporated in that programme?

I thank Dr. Smith for attending and for his presentation. I have one question concerning the people who are not diagnosed quickly enough because of delays of one kind or another. In terms of co-ordination between the National Cancer Screening Services and the other providers, particularly primary care providers, is any effort made to prioritise patients who have symptoms to ensure they are referred and seen as quickly as possible?

I thank Dr. Smith for his presentation. I would like to raise the matter of screening. The provision of cervical screening for women up to the age of only 60 and breast cancer screening up to the age of only 65 reflects a policy of ageism. Those age limits were set originally for financial reasons. Those age restrictions reflect blunt and blatant discrimination. What is Dr. Smith's view on restricting the age limits for those screening programmes? What plans has he to roll out them out to older women? Has he any information on the rolling out of the cervical cancer vaccination?

I also thank Dr. Smith for his presentation. Many of the questions I intended to ask have already been raised. We hear that prevention is better than cure and that the earlier one is diagnosed and treated, the more successful will be one's outcome.

We need to focus particularly on men's health. Present company excluded, men are not the most proactive when it comes to looking after themselves. They often allow a long period to elapse before seeking help. Recent statistics I read reveal that Ireland has the sixth highest incidence rate and the eight highest mortality rate in terms of bowel cancer. Those statistics are too high. We need to focus on encouraging men to have regular check-ups with their doctors. If screening is available, that makes it easier for people. Once there is a focus in that respect, I am sure men will avail of it. We need to examine that area.

We have good outcomes in dealing with children's cancers. If we can do that in one discipline, there is no reason we cannot have good outcomes in others. We need to focus on achieving that. Greater emphasis should be placed on health promotion and on encouraging people to look after themselves and visit their GPs and, in that respect, the screening programmes need to be put in place.

I apologise for not being present for Dr. Smith's presentation. I had a small medical emergency to deal with, which I am happy to say was nothing too serious.

I have had a quick read of the presentation. I am very supportive of screening. What would Dr. Smith's view be on mixing into the screening services he is promoting what I have often referred to as an NBT — in the same way as we have an NCT — an annual age appropriate check up, not necessarily annually given age groups, but where appropriate? In particular, there are major issues concerning mental health. Delegates from Dáil na nÓg appeared before the committee yesterday. Mental health is a major issue for the age group in that body in terms of an annual check up.

Dr. Smith mentioned our poor performance in the incidence of colorectal cancer. What other plans has he for the roll-out of screening programmes for the other cancers? Does he consider there is a case for screening for hypertension and diabetes? There were plans for retinal screening for those with diagnosed diabetes which have fallen by the wayside. Dr. Smith might comment on some of those points.

Dr. Alan Smith

On the issue of the age groups covered for breast screening and cervical cancer screening, the age group currently covered is 50 to 64 years of age, but work is currently under way to review that. The next extension of that age group would be to extend it to women up to the age of 69, but whether we can extend that age group would be budget dependent.

In terms of the 25 to 60 age group covered for cervical cancer screening, a common question asked is from where was that age group pulled and who picked it. It is not pulled out of the air but based on population-based studies. From a population perspective, the age to start cervical screening should be between 20 and 30. That is the recommendation from EU QA documents. The age at which screening should cease is not controversial but there are mixed opinions on it. There are population programmes that end before age 60, at age 60 and at age 65 and upwards. The question we must always ask ourselves in this respect is where the maximum public health gain and benefit to the population can be achieved. That is where the type of medicine I practise, looking at the big population picture, sometimes clashes with that of an individual practitioner, GP or consultant, who sees a patient younger than 24 years or age or older than 60 years of age with cervical cancer. In terms of achieving maximum public health benefit for the community, we have to target the population where the incidence is highest and which we can expect to make most gain in reducing the incidence of cancer. They are evidence based age groups, but they will always be under constant review. They will never be written in stone. My personal opinion is that I would not be surprised if, in due course, the starting age of 25 for cervical screening began to be reduced to 20 years of age. However, this is a difficulty. If screening commences too early, the chances are that temporary abnormalities will be picked up in the cervix that would resolve themselves anyway. If too many young women are subjected to needless treatment, which is what it would be, they could have consequences for future pregnancies — pre-term delivery and low birth rate.

A vote has been called in the Dáil. I would like Dr. Smith to deal with the initial questions and then we will have to adjourn for a brief period.

That is fine.

Dr. Smith might have time to deal with the questions that we asked, given that the Senators can remain and continue the discussion.

Yes, Dr. Smith might deal with those. Will the members nominate an Acting Chairman?

I nominate Senator Mary White.

That is great.

On the provision that, as chairperson, she cannot ask any questions.

A Deputy

She can.

Dr. Alan Smith

To respond to Deputy O'Sullivan's question on specific operational updates, I have not brought any specific up to date figures other than what Mr. O'Brien, the CEO, outlined at the last meeting in late October. The schedule he outlined for expansion into areas not yet reached by BreastCheck is on schedule.

What is the position regarding the bowel cancer screening programme?

Dr. Alan Smith

The Deputy asked for the age range that will be covered for bowel cancer screening. In the report the expert group prepared it recommended a bowel cancer screening programme targeting an age range from 55 to 75 using what is called faecal occult blood test, a type of test that is immunochemical in nature.

Senator Mary M. White took the Chair.

I am sorry but I must go to vote. Perhaps Dr. Smith might give me the rest of the answers when I come back, if that is okay, or else we can get them in writing.

Dr. Alan Smith

No problem.

I apologise for being late but I was delayed at another meeting.

As regards cervical screening, I understood that unless somebody was 25 years old, there were many false positives, as Dr. Smith indicated. I undertake the sexual health programme in schools in south Tipperary, Waterford and south Kilkenny. As part of that interactive programme, I am frequently asked that question by girls to whom I am giving the programme. I have been telling them that there is no point in undergoing cervical screening before the age of 25, even though I acknowledge that engaging in early sexual intercourse would necessitate more frequent assessment on the basis of such behaviour. I thought the whole basis was that 25 years was the defining age. Is there new research?

Dr. Alan Smith

No. Current research indicates that a programme should not begin before age 20 years, but it should certainly start before age 30. As long as one starts somewhere within these age ranges, according to EUQA guidelines, one will be doing okay, as a population programme. We have picked the figure of 25 years on the basis of population benefit. That is where one will see maximum benefit. Once one starts screening that age group and above, one will see maximum benefit. There will be instances of abnormalities in younger women's cervixes, but on balance, when one looks at it from a whole population perspective under 25 years, the potential harm to that population outweighs the benefits. That is what a population screening programme is all about. People forget about the harm done; in some way, there is always harm, either physical or psychological. As long as the benefits outweigh the harm, however, there is a green light for a population cancer screening programme. The evidence is not available for lowering the age from 25 years. However, I can foresee that day coming, when statistics or population studies point us in the direction that we should be lowering the age and that the net benefit would outweigh the harm for a younger population group.

What is Dr. Smith's view on the cervical vaccine?

Dr. Alan Smith

My view and that of the NCSS is that HPV vaccination represents a complementary approach to screening. It is not a case of one or the other, they should both be applied for a comprehensive cervical cancer control programme. That is a done deal as far as I am concerned. The NCSS asked HIQA to undertake the original HTA on HPV vaccination in 2007. It was completed and the results widely published. It should be emphasised, however, that the HTA did not look just at HPV vaccination. It looked at whether HPV vaccination plus screening versus a screening approach alone would be effective and the answer was yes. Clinically and from a cost effective viewpoint, the vaccine is good, but the next decision does not rest with me, unfortunately.

I understand that and I am not being political in raising the issue. My overview is that the vaccine should be given to young women, irrespective of any decision, from which there has been a rowing back. There is a conflict in terms of the costings and various initiatives were proposed. Therefore, the matter should be re-examined because there was such a reaction to it, given that it is a preventive screening programme which has positive benefits for everybody. The various costings and initiatives proposed at the time of the controversy should be revisited. It is important that that should happen. It should not be one of those things that did not happen because there is scope to examine additional methods. In many cases, hospitals will not accept payment by credit card but will write a bill which has a cost in secretarial time, paper, envelopes and postage. A busy accident and emergency unit could send 200,000 such bills per year, which is ridiculous. That could pay for many screenings. There is a lot of waste in the HSE that has not been fully explored.

Dr. Alan Smith

I fully support the Senator's view that this vaccine for 12 or 13 year olds — that is, girls in the first year of secondary school — should be given. The NCSS has not been involved in any of the costings, but we would support vaccination alongside screening.

In support of Senator Prendergast, I have read in the newspapers that the vaccine can be provided at a reduced rate. The Centre for Tropical Medicine and the Well Woman Centre were proposing to provide it at a much reduced cost. We should obtain a costing for that age cohort, rather than the figure of €10 million mentioned.

Dr. Alan Smith

Yes.

It is imperative that young girls receive the vaccine as soon as possible.

Dr. Alan Smith

One cannot ascertain the true cost of the vaccine for that population without going through a tender process involving both companies to drive down the cost and let them compete. One will never be able to put one's finger on how much the vaccine will cost per dose without doing this.

How could we drive that and who would drive it?

Dr. Alan Smith

Vaccination policy rests within the HSE. It is within its remit to pursue that policy.

We are getting different prices now than we were at the time of the budget. As director of screening, Dr. Smith should drive that request.

Dr. Alan Smith

I would certainly have no problem with that.

I think he should do it.

Dr. Alan Smith

The NCSS would have no problem with pursuing it as much as we could.

Dr. Alan Smith

Implementing a vaccination programme is not currently within the remit of the NCSS, but we could certainly act on it.

Prevention is the NCSS's business.

Dr. Alan Smith

Absolutely. It is a cancer control measure. The vaccine is unusual in that it can prevent cancer.

I personally believed there was a conservative attitude towards putting this issue in front of young girls of 12 years. There was a reaction to the effect, "Are you saying young girls are promiscuous?" Society's sexual mores have changed, although that does not necessarily mean there is a greater level of promiscuity. If people are having sexual relationships much earlier than 20 or 25 years, we have to accept that society is like that. I am not talking about promiscuity but about serious personal relationships.

Dr. Alan Smith

The fact is that kids in this country are having sex at an earlier age than was the case ten, 20 or 30 years ago. If it got to the stage where we were planning to introduce a HPV vaccination programme, there would be objections from various quarters in society. Something similar happened in the United Kingdom when the question was initially examined of whether this programme should be introduced in primary or secondary schools. Primary schools were looked at and it was found that the level of objections was huge. However, when the matter was looked at from a secondary school perspective, the objections seemed to dissipate, with the emphasis on cancer control. The vaccine is about the prevention of cancer.

That is right.

Absolutely, it is not related to promiscuous behaviour.

Dr. Alan Smith

It should not be drawn into that argument.

When the issue was being discussed, political representatives were asked, "What is this about? I do not want my 12 year old child to be given a vaccine." There is a rump.

Dr. Alan Smith

My response is that the vaccine is about the prevention of cervical cancer.

There still seems to be a long waiting time for colorectal screening in some parts of the country. I apologise if this aspect has been covered, but there are concerns because in some regions people who are being referred may have to wait a number for months. Has Dr. Smith a view on that? Obviously, the view from his perspective will be that there should be an efficient referral and follow-up.

Dr. Alan Smith

There was probably a mix-up in that regard. I should make a distinction between the symptomatic services, to which I think Senator Prendergast is alluding, and screening. Screening, which of course is our business, relates to offering screening for asymptomatic individuals.

I am not involved in the symptomatic service. All I know is what I have read as well, recently that the waiting times seem to have come down, in some cases by startling amounts, over a relatively short period of time, and that can only be welcomed.

A screening programme should never be seen as a substitute for deficiencies in any symptomatic service, by it breast, cervical or colorectal. They are really two separate issues.

Colonoscopy, I should also emphasise, is more than just a test for colon cancer. People with inflammatory bowel disease or other bowel problems must undergo that test as well.

Returning to my earlier question, some of those who reach the age of 60 or 65 are only coming to the peak of their lives and experience. I feel strongly that ageism is probably one of the last acceptable discriminations in societies.

I have spoken to Professor Des O'Neill about breast cancer screening and he has told me that older women are more prone to cancer. It is a serious cut-off age when there is a quarter of one's life left. Many are living to the age of 90 or 100. They want a good quality of life in the last quarter and we are saying they are not to get screening past the ages of 64 and 60, respectively, in two major cancer areas for women.

Dr. Alan Smith

It is a difficult area.

It does not have a lobby strong enough to push for it.

Dr. Alan Smith

It is a difficult one. I am looking at it from the population perspective of where can one get maximum health gain for that population of women which is definitely in the age group from 50 to 64, soon to be 50 to 69.

That is not what Professor O'Neill says.

Dr. Alan Smith

I can understand why individual clinicians would say differently.

He is a professor of gerontology.

Dr. Alan Smith

He is right in the sense that the incidence of cancers, no matter what sort, rise as we all age. That is an indisputable fact. If a woman has been through BreastCheck, for example, from the start, from when she was aged 50 right up until aged 64, or maybe aged 69 when it expands to that age group, she has a significantly reduced risk having participated in the programme compared to another woman aged 69 who has not participated at all. It is two different population groups.

There are ladies who have never had BreastCheck who are aged 65, 70 etc. Does Dr. Smith know what I mean, tá siad ag teacht ar ais anois? We should push for it.

Dr. Alan Smith

There will always be question marks over the starting age and finishing age for any screening programme. The studies that look at this must take into account average life expectancy as well. The average life expectancy is approximately 77 or 78 years in Ireland today.

It is a question of whether one is doing more harm than good. Hard as that is to understand intuitively, one can sometimes find oneself in a position where the harm outweighs the benefits from screening older people.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl took the Chair.

I do not accept that. I do not mean it personally.

Dr. Alan Smith

I understand.

I am spokesperson for older people. I addressed the matter in my document "A New Approach to Ageing and Ageism", saying it was one of the serious discriminations in the health sector against older people. Former Senator Kathleen O'Meara will give it a good push.

Dr. Alan Smith

I would finish by saying that these ages are never set in stone and they will be always under review. We must always look at a population screening programme from a population perspective and where the maximum benefit is, and the extension of BreastCheck to those aged 69 is a good start.

Dr. Smith might address some of the other questions raised.

Dr. Alan Smith

I touched on the age range for the colorectal programme. I am not sure whether Deputy Jan O'Sullivan was present.

Yes. Dr. Smith stated the age range would be 55 to 74, rather than beginning at 50.

Dr. Alan Smith

Yes. The age range 55 to 74, using what is called an immunochemical fecal decal blood test on a two-yearly basis.

She asked when would the HTA——

The Council of Europe recommends a range from 50 years. Is there a reason it is 55 years?

Dr. Alan Smith

We are coming back to the same issue of where the maximum public health gain is to be got. The expert group looked at an age ranging from 50 right up to 74 and beyond. Looking at the incidence of colorectal cancer in this country, we felt that the range 55 to 74 years was a good place to start. Certainly, there are colorectal screening programmes around Europe which do apply at an earlier age. There are others which start at a later age.

My other questions were about whether Dr. Smith was on target for 2010 and when the HTA report will be published.

Dr. Alan Smith

I will take the HTA first. HIQA is appearing before the committee tomorrow and may be able to give the Deputy more definite time lines. I understand I will see a draft copy of the report on Friday next in preparation for a meeting of the expert advisory group which is overseeing the HTA. That meeting is taking place in early February. Then, I understand, the board of HIQA will review it in mid to late February and it will be published thereafter. I anticipate it will be published at the end of February or early March, but I refer the Deputy to HIQA to get a firm time line on that.

On the time line for the colorectal screening programme, of course it all depends on when the green light is given to such a programme. Experience shows it takes two years from the launch of a population screening programme to screening the first patient. Therefore, 1 January 2011 is the earliest possible date on which we could start screening for colorectal cancer if we were told now to go ahead with a population screening programme.

In his presentation Dr. Smith made an interesting point about the UK experience of corporate owners of primary care facilities exerting an influence over the development of them. That would be of key significance to the committee's work. Does he wish to comment further on that?

Dr. Alan Smith

I suppose what I am doing there is stepping over the line into what is a personal view as opposed to an organisational one. I worked for the UK Health Protection Agency's centre for infections and the UK Department of Health immunisation division from 2003 to 2006. Given my background in primary care, one could not fail to note the developments going on in the UK. Certainly, there has been, to mixed opinions, an involvement of private equity, private corporations and private companies in primary care.

There were a number of developments with which they were faced, many issues on accommodation and premises. They tackled that issue by a process known as local improvement finance trusts, LIFT, which were essentially companies that could buy and develop lands and lease them as they saw fit, and often general practitioners would come in and lease rooms from these private companies. That opened the gate for private input into primary care in the UK.

At the same time, around 2002, there was a renegotiation of the general practitioners' contract which really moved primary care into a different direction altogether. There was no longer an onus for a general practitioner to provide 24/7 care 365 days a year. Care was broken into essential care, additional care and a further category of care, and general practitioners could choose what services they wished to get involved in. The responsibility for delivering primary care services in the UK moved from general practitioners to what are called primary care trusts, PCTs, a type of health board. If general practitioners opted out of providing any particular form of care, it was up to the PCTs to provide whatever was left.

There has been mixed opinion. Certainly, the old cradle-to-the-grave approach to general practice, in which I was trained and which has much to recommend it on continuity of care, is really changing in the UK. It is a case study, of which the committee should be aware and which may be worthy of further exploration with the other professional groups which are due to come before it later today.

I am glad Dr. Smith raised that point because this matter is near and dear to my heart. Like him, I follow the old definition of general practice as involving primary, personal and continuing care. Such care allows general practitioners to make diagnoses without being obliged to resort to having to use the various diagnostic tools that might be required by those not familiar with particular patients. That is why there is such a difference between what happens in accident and emergency departments, in which the prerogative is to process the patient as quickly as possible while ensuring everything is covered, and in general practice, where each visit represents a single frame in an ongoing film. There is always tomorrow and next week and cases can be followed up in various ways.

I vehemently oppose the ideology behind the corporatisation of general practice or primary care. Like education, health is an important facet of Irish life and must be kept in the public domain. Neither sector should be corporatised. I was interested in Dr. Smith's comment to the effect that the door was opened when property interests became involved in the renting of rooms. I will nail my colours to the mast and state the last thing I want to see happen is multiples running primary care services in the same way they run pharmacies. Such a development will be opposed by Fine Gael and certainly by me.

I thank Dr. Smith for his excellent presentation and apologise with regard to the various hiatuses that led to it being delivered in a truncated fashion. How does he see a system of age-appropriate check-ups operating in tandem with preventive strategies? Under a system involving both methods, those with colorectal cancer and others with fecal occult blood positive results could, for example, be dealt with separately from mainstream patients.

Dr. Alan Smith

Deputy Reilly only arrived at the meeting when I was concluding my outline of the position on colorectal conditions. The plan is to use an immunochemical fecal occult blood test as a primary screening test, on a two-yearly basis, for members of the population aged between 55 and 74 years. This is not anything particularly new and is fairly consistent with what is considered best practice throughout Europe and across the globe. What is new is the use of the immunochemical test. The old style fecal occult blood test relied on the human eye, whereas the new test is machine readable and much quicker and easier to use. In addition, the performance characteristics relating to it are much better than those that applied to the old style test.

I am anxious to bring this part of the meeting to a close. We are running over time.

Dr. Alan Smith

I am conscious that I did not answer the question relating to men's health and the NCT-type approach. The bowel cancer screening programme will be the first such programme in this country to involve men. As stated, such a problem presents its own unique challenges in getting men through the door. Men tend to dislike coming anywhere near doctors. Neither promoting good health nor preventing ill health comes near the top of their agenda.

Prostate cancer is of interest to me, both personally and professionally. Considering it from a population perspective and taking account of the balance-harm ratio to which I referred in respect of breast cancer and the cervical cancer screening programmes, the overall view is that more harm than good will come of a population approach to prostate cancer screening. Any man who wants to have a test for prostate cancer can do so once he has approached his general practitioner and discussed the pros and cons of the actual test, the consequences of testing positive and the options for treatment. This matter still needs to be discussed at one-to-one level by patients and doctors rather than adopting a full population approach.

In the context of the point made by Dr. Smith, to which Deputy Reilly responded, and members speaking on behalf of their parties, I previously referred to the possibility of health centres being sold off and premises then being provided by developers. The Labour Party has a fundamental difficulty with the growing privatisation taking place across the health service, but particularly with that happening in the primary care sector. I presume members will have the opportunity to outline their parties' positions at a later date.

The parties' positions and the philosophical positions of individual members will inform the report the committee will compile. There will be ample opportunity in the coming weeks to return to these points.

Dr. Alan Smith

I am glad Deputy Reilly used the term "NCT". When discussing screening, one must be extremely careful. I tend to be somewhat picky with regard to what the term "NCT" means. To me, it refers to a population approach to screening for a particular disease. Checking people's blood pressure and cholesterol and asking them to complete mental health questionnaires or lifestyle surveys amounts to a health check or an NCT approach. Making that distinction helps. Everyone appreciates that there is a distinction between the two. There is a role for an NCT or MOT-style approach in primary care settings. However, our remit extends only to cancer screening.

I thank Dr. Smith for the assistance he has given to the committee. We may be obliged to seek further clarification from him and will correspond with him if that proves to be the case.

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