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JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN díospóireacht -
Thursday, 29 Jan 2009

Primary Healthcare Partnership.

Our next delegation is from the Primary Healthcare Partnership. I welcome Mr. Ben Cronin, Dr. Michael Collins, Mr. Pat Conlan and Mr. Liam Kenny to the meeting and thank them for their paper. Before we begin I draw the attention of the witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not extend to witnesses. Those present are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I suspect I will be saying that in my sleep tonight as it has been repeated so often today.

I thank the witnesses for coming before us and ask them to give a brief synopsis of the paper they have circulated, after which we will go to members for a round of questions.

Dr. Michael Collins

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for allowing the Primary Healthcare Partnership to make this presentation. I am a GP in the midlands and our group practice is representative of many around the country. I am joined by Mr. Ben Cronin, Mr. Pat Conlan and Mr. Liam Kenny. We have formed a group called Primary Healthcare Partnership, which was established to develop a primary care facility in Kildare. The message of our presentation is simple, yet of great importance. I may surprise members by saying that this presentation is not actually about our group. It is about how we can deliver a first-class, cost-effective health care system for all patients by implementing the primary care strategy in a prompt fashion. We believe this will be cash-positive to the Exchequer and will also provide positive spin-offs for other sectors in the economy.

Buildings alone are not enough. They simply provide the infrastructural environment to deliver the necessary services. We are fortunate to have a population of highly-trained GPs. We are already qualified to provide a far wider range of services than we are able to provide at present due to the constraints of the system. By using primary care manpower more efficiently, we can improve the hospital-primary care interface with marked benefits to our patients. As a result, hospitals will become more efficient in fulfilling their secondary and tertiary roles. More elective and emergency cases could be carried out in hospitals, thus significantly reducing waiting times. One of the major difficulties to date has been that many services are carried out in hospital outpatient clinics, which are often at some remove from the patient's own community. This creates logistical problems for patients and their families, with considerable cost in time and money to both service users and the Government. Providing all these extra services will require some reallocation of manpower and suitable accommodation. As mentioned previously by one or two of the groups, it is futile to rationalise hospital services and cut funding if some of the moneys saved do not follow the patient into the primary care setting.

There is an essential need for co-operation between the two main parties, namely, the general practitioners and the Health Service Executive. We must provide integrated and co-ordinated services as value for money. The business model used by GPs has provided cost-effective services to the State, with more than 90% patient satisfaction. That level is considerably higher than that of other groups. This figure is according to a HSE-commissioned report by Deloitte and Touche in 2001. It is essential that this business model be incorporated into the new primary care facilities for efficient delivery of primary care and that bureaucratic and inefficient models are not allowed to predominate.

Many of the proposed primary care facilities are in smaller provincial towns where there may be only two key occupants, namely, the HSE and general practitioners. The problem is that the HSE has expressed the requirement that such facilities should be occupied at below market rents. GPs are unlikely to leave their current accommodation to subsidise such a situation. In other words, if the proposed primary care facility is not financially viable, it will not be built. It is in the many locations throughout the country such as Carrickmacross, Croom and Glin that this will impact most negatively. This is where the role of capital allowances is vital. The purpose of these allowances is to catalyse the provision of primary care facilities to enable the delivery of the primary health care strategy in a fast and cost-effective way throughout the country. As Deputy Reilly and other speakers noted, 2000 was the year the primary health care strategy was drawn up. That was nine years ago. If we had had a specified limited tax allowances scheme for the past seven years, this could all have been rolled forward in a timely fashion.

I hope I will not be timed on that aside.

That is fine.

Dr. Michael Collins

Given the current economic conditions, we feel that a far more significant proportion of primary care facilities will be developed if an enabling environment is provided. We believe that tax legislation should be aligned to the existing health care strategy in order to promote the development of such medical centres. Without such incentives, we feel there will be a significant reduction in potential services, tax revenue, jobs, etc. The expected contribution to the Exchequer from such development will be cash positive. The employment and transaction taxes likely to stem from both the development phase and the ongoing operation of the facilities will be significant.

The happy reality is that the environment to progress the primary care strategy genuinely has never been better. There is real will from both the HSE and also, judging from my experience of discussion with general practitioners, among GPs, to come together to realise Government policy and provide first class cost-effective health care for all. We must all use the many positives and opportunities now available to us to implement this goal. The public, the health care providers and the Government all know of the many shortcomings in our current health service. There is a true, tangible opportunity now. The aspiration and vision are already Government policy and the tools that can facilitate it already have precedent. The question is not whether we can afford to do it, but whether we can afford not to do so.

I offer my apologies. I must leave to speak in the Dáil debate. I have one question. Dr. Collins suggested tax incentives and said also that the GP should be the driving force.

Dr. Michael Collins

One of the driving forces.

We have seen tax incentives in other situations before, for example, in child care facilities where the result was that a developer came in and got the tax incentive but the person running the facility did not get any great benefit from it. How would Dr. Collins ensure that this policy would be medical personnel-driven rather than developer-driven?

I apologise but I must go.

First, if I might start by finding out who is who. Dr. Collins is a GP——

Dr. Michael Collins

I am based in County Kildare.

Mr. Ben Cronin

I am a project manager on a project in County Kildare with Dr. Collins.

Mr. Pat Conlan

I am a funding adviser to the project.

Mr. Liam Kenny

I am an accounting adviser to the project.

Have the representatives formed a company to bring this about?

Dr. Michael Collins

It is a co-ownership. Shall I explain a little about our structure?

Dr. Michael Collins

In Kildare we are a busy practice of four partners with a couple of assistants. We had the intention of developing our own primary care facility and acquired a site, etc, but that site would have been far too small. Given the current movement and the momentum out there the opportunity came up for us to produce the ideal project. That is what this is all about. I have known Mr. Cronin and Mr. Conlan for many years but they did not know each other until we introduced them. They are there to provide the project management and the business know-how.

I believe this is important for GPs throughout the country. The breakdown is that we are all equal shareholders. There is no large developer who is trying to take over control of the project. Corporatisation would be very negative. Perhaps that issue might be discussed later.

In our situation, the GPs own 70% of the project. Most important, we are acquiring the GP surgery with absolute autonomy. Neither of the other people will be involved.

Who owns the other 30%?

Dr. Michael Collins

Mr. Cronin and Mr. Conlon own that.

They are investors.

What stage is the project at and what does it involve?

Dr. Michael Collins

It is a 61,000 sq. ft. centre. The GP portion, which is exclusively ours, is approximately 12,000 sq. ft., 12% of the entire space. The remainder, or approximately 80%, will belong, largely, to the HSE because it is to take 29,000 sq. ft. There will be ancillary services such as dental and primary care teams because that is extremely important. That is in the HSE portion. We also have network services. There was some confusion earlier. As was mentioned, primary care teams are made up of occupational therapy, public health nurses, etc. Network services, essentially, are psychiatry and dental care, which provide a greater——

I will stop Dr. Collins there and return to the members for some questions.

I only asked who the delegates were. I thank them for that. Is this primary health care partnership the only one they are involved in, or do they intend to become involved in others?

Dr. Michael Collins

We intend to be involved in others.

How does that fit in with the earlier discussion of ownership by general practitioners and tax incentives?

Dr. Michael Collins

Absolutely.

A lot of what Dr. Collins said makes sense. I agree with it with regard to tax incentives. This situation has been going on since 2001 and is not going anywhere fast. The HSE spoke to the committee yesterday and reported that it had 35 agreements to lease but that there were caveats which mean they are not the normal agreement to lease. They are not as lock-tight as an ordinary agreement to lease.

Is there a pharmacy in this project? What is the view of Dr. Collins on that point? The Irish Pharmacy Union was before the committee and it was very much opposed to the idea of a pharmacy being part of a primary health care team and being located in the same building. It feels that would damage other pharmacies.

With regard to Dr. Collins's future involvement in other projects——

Dr. Michael Collins

First, with regard to the pharmacies——

Was Deputy Reilly finished?

I thank the representatives for their presentation.

The GPs will own their own share in this premises and that will be entirely independent——

Dr. Michael Collins

It will be autonomous.

Some 70% of the same building will be owned by the partnership of providers.

Dr. Michael Collins

Of whom the GPs will be full and equal shareholders.

Presumably the HSE will rent 70% of the building from the partnership. It will be responsible for who enters the building. Has the partnership discussed the requirements with the HSE? Is there any input regarding who will constitute the members of the team? It was mentioned that network providers will not be included. Will there be a facility whereby they could be included, for example, in the dental service? Does the partnership have any input regarding who will be involved? Will the partnership meet the HSE at the planning stage to determine the size of the building? This is a wholly private development and there is no public private partnership component. The public sector does not have any ownership of the building. Does the partnership intend to become involved in developments of this nature in other parts of the country? If it does so, the partnership will be classified as a developer.

Dr. Michael Collins

I would rather say as a facilitator.

I thank the Deputy. I am conscious that although we have been discussing the theory surrounding the implementation of the strategy, the delegation is working on a project which will realise its implementation in a particular locality. Can the delegation provide a sense of the challenges met to date and whether it believes public policy has supported the work of the partnership? Did it find impediments in the system? Yesterday, Deputy Reilly raised the question of a tax incentive. How crucial is that to the delegation's work?

I would like to get straight answers to the corporatisation aspect of this matter. If the delegation was only dealing with one entity I would not have a problem. However, if the partnership intends to spread throughout the country, building in different places, at once I smell corporatisation, to which I am vehemently opposed. If I were to introduce tax incentives, which I support, I would limit them to those who are providers within the service. Tax incentives should be available to GPs, pharmacists, if they are prepared to be part of the team, to dentists and some others. There are four groups, all providers, to which tax incentives should be available. It is only right and proper that this should be limited to involvement in one centre per professional. In other words, one person should not receive a tax break on a second centre further down the road. In such a case we would end up with corporatisation and chains. Although I do not wish to demonise chains, primary care is too important to the fabric of the country to be left in the hands of a small number of entrepreneurs.

Dr. Michael Collins

I genuinely and unreservedly agree 100% with everything Deputy Reilly has said.

I invite Mr. Kenny to comment.

Mr. Liam Kenny

I refer to the tax issue. Existing schemes and legislation have been mentioned. We do not seek a complete overhaul of existing legislation, but an extension of the current definitions of what or who might qualify. This issue has been referred to, which we anticipated. As Dr. Collins remarked, we are not seeking to corporatise. However, we must augment the list of who would qualify. This is the finer detail. There must be a definition of service providers. Deputy Reilly remarked on the area of corporate roll-out and on the benefits for professional practitioners. We believe the HSE could act as the control mechanism for those entitled to incentives. From our point of view the incentive argument is that——

I do not know whether I would agree with that.

Let us get the answers.

Mr. Liam Kenny

We believe people will not budge in the current environment unless there is some incentive to do so.

That is a very important point and I understand that is what the Chairman was suggesting. The delegation believes that these are not achievable in the current climate without some tax incentive.

Mr. Liam Kenny

That is correct and that is the first step of the argument. Deputy Reilly referred to getting down to the finer detail and the nitty gritty of tax legislation and whether to augment what is already in place or whether to create additional legislation to quality control it. That argument must be made and we must find out who would qualify and who would not.

One aspect, not related to tax, relates to the experience of people who have successfully launched such arrangements. We are discussing those who are professionals in the medical field, but who may not have other experience. Facilities were referred to earlier. The delivery of facilities will be the house through which the services are provided. It is not possible to provide a quality service without attractive facilities into which people will come and feel comfortable. We are making the case that as a first port of call the facility must be constructed, and there must be an incentive to enable this to take place. I take the point about corporate roll-out and it has been noted. It must be dealt with along the way. However, the point is if we do nothing we do not see how this can ever move forward.

It will be 2050 before we have them.

Mr. Ben Cronin

On the corporate roll-out, it should be emphasised that the GPs have 100% ownership of their piece. They are also majority stakeholders in the balance of the building. For example, this is the case in Kildare.

This would be the case in future projects also.

Mr. Ben Cronin

Control always lies with the GPs. We recognise that they are the key players along with the HSE. I emphasise that point.

Are there any other points to be made before we conclude?

Dr. Michael Collins

I will reply to some of the questions put. Deputy Reilly asked about pharmacies and our opinion on this matter. A pharmacy would be an integral part of one of these primary care centres. Earlier, we listened to the Irish Pharmacy Union presentation. One point made was if a pharmacy is brought into one of these locations one will end up isolating the satellite pharmacies in the community. There are many examples throughout the country of some larger general practices which have shown foresight in the past five or ten years in this regard and pharmacies have followed practices. Whether the pharmacy is inside the primary care facility or otherwise, other pharmacies will move around it like a magnet. This is the reality.

It is important that the opportunity is given to local pharmacists to take on these units at market value. The idea is not to try to parachute in pharmacists from outside, which would be very damaging. I realise Mr. Cronin and Mr. Kenny have answered this question, but it is very important to state this is the model we devised. The 20% or 25% of the building used for the general practice is untouchable and totally autonomous. We take a minority stake simply to act as facilitators and make it all happen. If our place in Kildare is up and running I will be very pleased. However, there is a real opportunity for others. We are aware of how general practitioners operate. Many are risk averse and many can be hoodwinked. Perhaps it is wrong to say as much. However, some may be somewhat naive and may be hoodwinked into a corporate arrangement. Some such models exist which could cause concern in the general practitioner community. Bit by bit GPs, whether through retirement or being bought out of their practices, are losing the real control and corporatisation and we are essentially moving towards an American type of model where facilities are owned by operators. That would be very detrimental. I could not agree more with Deputy Reilly.

Mr. Pat Conlan

The important part of this is to build the services on co-operation between the HSE and doctors. That is where the nucleus of all this will be. The development of primary care centres, backed up by the extension of the capital allowances scheme, will allow the speedy roll out of PCT centres, allow the HSE to develop its services with a low-cost model and back up the replacement of hospital services with the efficient provision of medical care in the community.

Engagement with the HSE was mentioned. It was said it would be actively involved in the delegation's project. Has it been a positive experience? We are expressing some concern about the capacity of the HSE to implement this strategy. What has been the experience of the delegation?

Mr. Pat Conlan

By and large it has been reasonably positive. There have been a number of issues which perhaps the HSE acted slowly on, but in general it has been positive. It is forthright in pushing this scheme forward.

Dr. Michael Collins

With respect to the HSE, much of this is at template stage. Once a commercial contract which can be rolled out is available, which we are on the cusp of, we will see a strong movement.

Regarding Deputy O'Hanlon's question on engagement with the HSE and who decides what, the ball is totally in the HSE's court with regard to what it wants or needs in an area. One can then see what is viable. The project is either viable or it is not. In smaller towns, such as Carrickmacross, if one only has the HSE and GPs, both of whom are trying to provide services on the cheap, to be blunt, that is not a business model.

There are a number of examples of this type of service throughout the country. It is fine to have bigger centres in train at the moment. However, the majority of these centres are in small provincial towns where there is no commercial incentive. One cannot drag it in; one has to incentivise it. We do not want this to be a pilot scheme. To show our bona fides as a group, being involved in some of the smaller schemes may not be very attractive, but it is only fair that all groups are represented and that tax allowances, which we feel is the most realistic option, are provided.

I was involved in one such scheme a number of years ago. There was one pharmacy in Lusk and now there are three, all of which are doing well. The pharmaceutical argument is one it is expected it would make, and it did so. The key message coming from the delegation is that there needs to be an incentive put in place to kick-start this process, otherwise it is just dribbling on and we will not get what we need.

Referring to Deputy O'Hanlon's point, and as I have said numerous times, what will work in Dún Laoghaire will not work in Lettermore.

Dr. Michael Collins

No.

Is the delegation referring to Kildare Town?

Dr. Michael Collins

Yes.

What is its population?

Dr. Michael Collins

It is 8,000 or 9,000. It has a large catchment area.

It is hoped to serve——

Dr. Michael Collins

I imagine it would be approximately 20,000 or 25,000.

Are the members happy? I thank the delegation for its presentation. If we need points clarified we will correspond with it. It has been of considerable assistance and we will meet similar groups in early February.

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