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Joint Committee on Health and Children díospóireacht -
Thursday, 25 Oct 2012

Health Insurance Sector: Discussion

Our topic this morning is the health insurance sector. I remind members and those in the visitors' gallery to ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they have an impact on the recording of the meeting. To be fair to the staff and those watching the proceedings at home, mobile phones should be turned off.

Our meeting today will be in two parts. The first part will be a discussion with the Health Insurance Authority represented by Mr. Liam Sloyan, chief executive, and Mr. Jim Joyce, chairperson. In the second part of our meeting we will hear from the health insurers. I propose, with the members' agreement, that this segment of the meeting will conclude by 10.45 a.m., following which we will have the second session with the health insurers. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome Mr. Sloyan and Mr. Joyce to the meeting. As members and those watching the proceedings at home will be aware, the Health Insurance Authority is a statutory regulator of the private health insurance market. The authority was established in 2001 under the Health Insurance Act. The authority is independent in the exercise of its function and the principal functions of the authority are laid out in the Health Insurance Act. I will not detail its different functions.

Before we commence I remind our witnesses that witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice and ruling of the Chairman to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call Mr. Joyce to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Jim Joyce

We are grateful to the committee and to the Chairman for inviting us to appear before it. I have been chairman of the Health Insurance Authority since 2006 and I am accompanied by Mr. Sloyan, who is the chief executive. The committee has asked for a brief presentation and I propose to be brief.

The functions of the authority can be briefly described as falling into three categories. We have some consumer related functions to do with assisting and informing consumers; statutory functions under the Act which mainly relate to risk equalisation; and a general remit to monitor the market and advise the Minister for Health on health insurance policy issues generally.

Members will be aware that for many years the public policy on private health insurance in Ireland, as in many other countries, has been based on community rating. This means that a health insurance product, subject to some conditions, should be available at the same price without regard to age, gender or health status. Compared with the normal insurance market this is quite a distortion because the premium paid on a normal insurance policy would vary according to risk. For a community rated market to be viable, therefore, it must be supported in a number of respects. We must have open enrolment, which allows anyone to purchase a health insurance contract, and lifetime cover to ensure people have an automatic right to renew.

Another key support is risk sharing, which recognises that where we have community rating a risk-sharing arrangement is required to deal with the different risk profiles of insurers because they are precluded from dealing with the risk profile by varying the level of premium they charge. This is not particular to Ireland. It applies in general to countries that have community rated markets.

Regarding the current state of the market, we would not be able to say that it is in a sufficiently stable or sustainable position, essentially because of the delay in implementing arrangements for risk sharing. There are many reasons for that. As members may be aware, the Supreme Court struck down the originally proposed risk equalisation scheme and the Minster decided, on the authority's recommendation following that, to implement a risk equalisation scheme in January after the scheme had been set aside by the Supreme Court in 2008. It was not until 2009 that we had some risk sharing, with the introduction of the tax credit levy arrangement. Those measures were introduced as an interim arrangement and were to apply for three years pending the establishment of a more effective risk equalisation system. It is not useful to go into the detail of the way the tax credits and so on are worked out, but essentially they are designed to compensate for the higher claims costs for older age groups. When the tax credit has been determined for the different age groups a rate of levy per insured person is then determined such that the system as a whole is revenue neutral. It follows, therefore, that for the market as a whole there is no reason the tax credit levy system should raise premiums on average. There are various other reasons premiums may increase but, as a whole, since the tax credit levy system is designed to be revenue neutral, it should have a neutral effect on average premiums.

The current arrangements represented an important advance, in the view of the Health Insurance Authority, but because there is only part compensation for risk differences between insurers it remains very profitable for an individual insurer to recruit younger, healthier consumers and avoid older and less healthy ones. At the same time, however, the claims rate rises rapidly with age, and this position has resulted in segmentation of the market. The first type of segmentation is between insurers in that the majority of older insured people are insured with VHI. The second type of segmentation is between products within insurers, whereby through marketing, product design and other means older people are frequently sold different products from those sold to younger people. The result is that in the current market older people still pay more on average for health insurance than younger people. The lack of sufficient risk sharing also means that the main commercial incentives in the market for insurers are to manage their risk profile through selection and segmentation rather than, for example, to manage claims and be more efficient. That is not intended as a criticism of insurers. It would be unreasonable to expect commercial bodies to do other than respond to the incentives and so on that face them in the market.

The recently published Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill 2012 contains a number of provisions to strengthen the risk equalisation system and put it on a permanent footing. If enacted, the system would take account not only of age, which is the current position, but also gender, the level of cover provided by a health insurance policy and the level of hospital utilisation. These measures would be an important and necessary support to the operation of community rating, as would be the continued strengthening of the risk equalisation system as things change. What we have found in discussions with people in other countries where risk equalisation applies is that there is no such thing as a perfect system that we can sit back and allow to operate. We must be constantly aware of the need to adjust it to reflect what is happening in the market.

Another feature of the current market to which we wish to draw attention is the rate of premium inflation, which is being driven mainly by increasing claim payments.

On average, the rate of premium inflation has been much higher for older and less healthy people than for younger and healthier consumers both because younger and healthier consumers are less risk averse and more likely to switch to lower cost plans and insurers are incentivised to target younger and healthier people with better value products.

The current economic conditions, together with the premium increases, have impacted on the size of the market which has grown steadily in size for many years since it was liberalised. However, since the end of 2008 the number of people with health insurance has declined at an average rate of just over 2% per annum, which amounts of 50,000 consumers. One of the results of that is that the insured population is ageing and if that were to continue, or even accelerate, the effect on the market could become more significant because, in the long term, and this is what intergenerational solidarity means, the viability of a community rated market depends on a regular influx of new and younger consumers.

Another market distortion arises from the fact that VHI Healthcare is not regulated by the Central Bank as an authorised insurer. While this is of much lesser impact than the absence of a comprehensive risk equalisation system, it is still a market distortion, and the State has undertaken to address it by the end of 2013.

With regard to universal health insurance, as members are aware the detailed parameters of a system have not yet been established but we can say that the regulatory measures discussed earlier would also be essential in the context of a universal health insurance market with competing insurers.

I hope my remarks serve to explain to the committee's satisfaction the reason the Health Insurance Authority is of the view that the best outcome from a regulatory perspective would be the continuing strengthening of the risk equalisation system as proposed in the Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill and other measures to support community rating coupled with the authorisation of VHI Healthcare as a regulated insurer. That outcome would serve to support community rating and proper competition in the interests of consumers generally.

I thank Mr. Joyce for that informative presentation, particularly the section on the rate of acceleration of people declining health insurance.

I welcome Mr. Joyce and Mr. Sloyan. Some key issues have to be addressed here. There is the immediate issue of the shorter and longer term policy decisions of the Government on universal health insurance and the potential difficulties that could arise in trying to implement that.

In terms of risk equalisation, intergenerational solidarity, community rating and all that is required to ensure we have a market that is not distorted by the fact that older people are more expensive and create a bigger liability on insurers, the inevitable cherry-picking of younger, healthier people is evident in the statistics of the various insurers but the most alarming aspect recently is the number of people who are dropping their health insurance cover and downgrading their plans. Mr. Joyce mentioned an annual 2% drop since 2008. The concern of insurers, and most policy makers, is the number of young people who are not taking up insurance. That is the key issue we must address to ensure we have a reasonably sustainable health insurance market in the short to medium term.

There are many reasons people drop out of health insurance cover. Affordability is the most obvious one in terms of the downturn in the economy, loss of jobs and so on but coupled with that is the massive health inflation. Will the witnesses indicate what are the main drivers in health inflation and what is the knock-on effect of that on premiums? Is it the policy decisions of Governments, the marketplace, consultant contracts or the charging of private insurers for the full cost of public beds? What is the breakdown in that regard? As someone who is involved in policy discussions I believe we can never find out that information. Insurers will tell us one thing, the Health Insurance Authority will tell us another and the Minister will tell us something else but we would like a breakdown as to the major contributory factors in the cost of premium increases. Is risk equalisation and community rating a factor? If so, that must be discussed.

We are in favour of risk equalisation, community rating and intergenerational solidarity but the difficulty is if people cannot afford to take out health insurance because this policy may be having an impact, it defeats the purpose because we have a law of diminishing return. We must get some detail on what is contributing to that in percentage terms or the sliding scale of priority downwards. The VHI, for example, has an older demographic. That is a simple fact of legacy, and it is confronted with difficulties on a daily basis. We are told that insurers from other countries coming here cherry-pick initially and hope that something happens in the future in terms of their clients' profile. That would be one of the key issues to be addressed.

On the broader issue of universal health insurance and the policies the Government is pursuing in that area, will Mr. Sloyan or Mr. Joyce outline the model that is working around the world that the committee, other policy and I should be advised to examine to try to identify a model that would fit into the policies the Government is pursuing? We are waiting for a White Paper on universal health insurance but I am not sure if anybody knows what they are meant to be doing in terms of identifying the model that will fit this country. We have four health insurers. There is one big player of the four. To have universal health insurance we must have quality competition in the marketplace but with a population of over 4 million people and the difficulties in the broader economy, I wonder if any more people will come into this marketplace to progress the universal health insurance idea the Minister is proposing.

I join in the welcome to Mr. Joyce and Mr. Sloyan. We in Sinn Féin want universal health care based on equal access for all and on the basis of need. We want that to be State-provided, funded by fair and general taxation and free at the point of delivery. That will require an increased contribution from the highest earners, as we have articulated time after time. We do not favour the insurance-based model of funding but if health insurance is to be the basis for funding, it is our contention that it should be a State insurance scheme. We base our views on the fact that the existing system is made up of a number of competing insurance entities, most if not all of whom are represented before this committee today, and that the competing private health insurance market satisfies itself regarding profitability and the interests of shareholders. We believe the State model provision will be focused on best patient care.

There are, as was said in Mr. Joyce's contribution and by the previous speaker, decreasing numbers of people with health insurance. We have rising premiums and more pressure on the public system. That has been referred to here in the past, and the Minister has also referred to it here in committee. Looking at the pillars of the Health Insurance Authority's responsibility under the Acts, I wonder if it has any function regarding the failure on the part of some of the competing private insurers to meet members' billings in a more expeditious way.

It is suggested to us as members that there is a significant hold-back on the part of some of the competing private insurers with the result that there is a negative impact regarding funding of the health services, with a deleterious impact on public health service provision.

It may not be within the witnesses' gift to comment on the various types of models that might present. It is the Government's stated intent to introduce a universal health care insurance model but I wonder about the real prospect of change. We have seen the first element of what the Minister had announced, that is, the proposed extension of free general practitioner care, postponed. The programme for Government promised that the White Paper on financing universal health insurance would be presented early in the Government's first term. I recall asking the Minister on the floor of the Dáil what he understood "the first term" to mean and he said it meant the entirety of the 31st Dáil - that is, five years. He sounded very hopeful that there would be a second.

(Interruptions).

I know the Chairman will be looking forward to it, but we will see.

The Department of Health briefing that was circulated in advance of today's engagement with the witnesses also makes the point that this would be done as early as possible within the Government's terms of office yet we have no indication that the Government's lauded and much vaunted core objective in health has any prospect of appearing on the horizon over this five year Dáil term, if that is what it is to be.

I believe the insurance route is a mistake. That is not our preference by any means but if it is to present, we will engage at the appropriate time in whatever legislation is brought forward.

I thank Mr. Joyce and Mr. Sloyan for coming before the committee today. We will have much more engagement on this issue because it is a growing one, so to speak. Since 2009, health insurance premia here have doubled. Yesterday's newspapers reported that individuals and families are facing an additional €300 cost from January. If we examine the issue of risk equalisation in the Health Insurance Authority's study purely from a gender and age point of view, that would be a loading of approximately €1,100 just on the equalisation aspect. In addition, the cost of the insurance premia, which does not include the new provision in the legislation on hospital utilisation, will put further pressure on many young families. Furthermore, because of the policy decision made by Government property taxes will be introduced. It seems that further pressure is being put on many families.

Does the HIA examine the issue of the levy from an equalisation point of view to ensure everyone pays the same premium or does it consider the issue of affordability? The reality for the majority of families is that if health insurance increases by €300 and if an additional levy is brought in, it will push health insurance beyond their reach. The issue of affordability must be taken into account because if it is not, the entire system could collapse.

In his opening statement Mr. Joyce made the point that there has been a greater increase in premium inflation at the higher end of the packages and for older people. Is it not the case traditionally that the better health insurance policies are usually taken out either by wealthy people or by older people? Under the legislation being proposed they would pay the highest level of risk equalisation levy into the fund. Does that not mean that affordability of those packages will be pushed even further out of the reach of older people? I thought the idea behind risk equalisation was to try to make it affordable for everyone.

Mr. Joyce made the point also that health insurance is now more expensive for older people but how does he square the circle in that the numbers of older people covered by insurance is increasing? The proportion of people in the older age category with insurance is increasing yet premiums appear to be increasing at a greater rate in respect of those people. Is it because they are opting for the more expensive policies? Naturally, they would be far more concerned about the demand for health services because of their age but at the same time younger people are haemorrhaging out of the system. A total of 80,000 people will no longer be in the private health insurance system this year. What incentives exist to grow the market? We must grow the market because if we do not the entire system here will collapse, which will put further pressure on our public health system. It will make it more expensive for employers who provide health insurance cover to employ people. That is very much the case regarding foreign direct investment coming here. Also, it will make the introduction of universal health insurance a mountain to be overcome if large numbers have left the system. I ask Mr. Joyce to outline the way the HIA intends to square that circle.

Five members have indicated. Who will respond to the first three questions?

Mr. Jim Joyce

We will both contribute. Regarding universal health insurance, as the Chairman will appreciate, it is not possible for me to say very much but one can make some general comments. First, the main difference between universal health insurance and the private health insurance arrangements we have currently is that everyone would be automatically covered and therefore it would deal with the situation of younger subscribers. The point about universal health insurance is that it covers everyone.

Deputy Ó Caoláin asked about the model that would be appropriate. There are various models. The Minister has spoken about most of them. There is a great deal of talk about the Dutch model, and it is undoubtedly true that one of the main issues is how we ensure there is a competitive marketplace in a much smaller country, but that is about as much as one can say about it. It is a generic comment.

Is the lead-in time acceptable given the way the Dutch took their time to reach that point?

Mr. Jim Joyce

That was the second aspect on which I was about to comment. It is a matter for the Government as to when the White Paper is issued and the sequence of events in that regard but one can say that in the case of the Dutch system it took a very long time to introduce and it would be unrealistic to expect the various steps that are necessary in preparation for it to be completed quickly.

Are we talking about five years or ten years?

Mr. Jim Joyce

I would not have any idea.

That is fair enough.

Mr. Jim Joyce

Mr. Sloyan might wish to deal with some of the other questions.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

Deputy Kelleher asked about the aspects that contribute to health insurance premium inflation. In recent years the premium inflation has been driven by claims inflation and the claims inflation market has largely been driven by an increase in hospital utilisation.

The other key aspect we like to talk about in terms of premium inflation is that the rate of inflation has been very different across different sectors of the market. Plans that have been around for a long time and that are mostly held by older people have increased greatly in price whereas many younger, price conscious people have switched to similar plans offering very similar benefits but at much lower costs.

That is often characterised as downgrading but many of those people get the same or better benefits for a much lower price. The price reflects the people who have bought that product rather than the level of cover provided by the product.

A third aspect of premium inflation we would like to mention is that the primary role for controlling claims costs lies with the insurers but as legislators and policymakers we have an important role also to ensure the focus of insurers is on areas like claims inflation and efficiency and not on risk profile management. Currently, it is far more profitable for an insurer to concentrate on managing its risk profile selling different products to young people and different products to older people. That is the way one makes money without a strong risk equalisation system but with a strong risk equalisation system that avenue for profitability will not exist. It will be all about more normal insurance practices such as controlling one's claims costs. It is important that we, as legislators and policymakers, develop the system to ensure that is where the focus lies.

Deputy Ó Caoláin asked about our role regarding issues arising between insurers and public hospitals. The role of regulators is largely to address the symmetries. A consumer is in a much less powerful position in dealing with an insurer, and we regulate the insurance market in respect of protecting health insurance consumers. We do not regulate the health care market. It is a matter for health care providers and insurers to deal with matters between them in regard to that type of issue.

Mr. Jim Joyce

Questions were raised also about the effect of risk equalisation on premiums. It is important to state that the purpose of risk equalisation is to equalise premiums. The point of the arrangement is that younger people will pay more in order that older people will pay less. In the new Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill we would make a distinction between different levels of product in the calculation of the levy. Clearly, that would be a new differentiation. The purpose of that is to ensure that in terms of the lower value products a disproportionate levy does not have to be paid.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

It is important to note in that context that people making the argument that the levy and the tax credits are inflationary tend to look only at the levy. Insurers receive money from tax credits as well and if we look only at the impact the levy is having on premiums and ignore the impact of the credits paid in respect of insurers policyholders, one is looking at only half the story. The credits in some cases more than cancel out the impact of the levy. In other cases where there is a predominantly younger population they less than cancel out the impact of the levy. The impact of both must be examined and when that is done one will see that the statements on the impact of the levy on the price of premiums, even for products with predominantly younger populations, are hugely overstated.

Do we have a profile in terms of age group of the people who have left the system? Deputy Naughten mentioned that in the context of growing the market, especially among young people. The Health Insurance Authority's newsletter issued last summer stated that 61,000 had left the system in the past year. Do we have a breakdown of that figure because we are seeing an accelerated exodus and we must try to grow the market?

Mr. Liam Sloyan

Yes. The age group that has seen a significantly larger decline in membership is the 18 to 29 years age group. The Central Statistics Office results show there has been a significant decrease in the number of people in the country in that age group. That is part of it, but that age group has shown the most significant decline. There has been a decline in all age groups under the age of 50 and the numbers over the age of 60 in the health insurance market have increased.

Mr. Jim Joyce

That would be due to ageing.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

Yes, largely. As people who have health insurance get older they are loath to cancel it, even more so than younger people.

Is Mr. Sloyan confident that that increase is due to ageing?

Mr. Liam Sloyan

The research we have shows that people tend to have health insurance when they are older. People buy it in their late 30s when they are starting a family or in some cases at a younger age when they get a job. They hold on to it once they reach a certain age. People are loath to cancel it and as those people get older, the numbers in those age groups get older. We do not see any evidence of an increase in people purchasing health insurance late in life.

In terms of the 18 to 29 years age group and allowing for emigration, should there be a policy departure regarding that age group to stop the acceleration and to attract people back into the system?

Mr. Liam Sloyan

Other voluntary markets have a system called lifetime community rating whereby if someone takes out health insurance later in life they pay more. Effectively, a 60 year old person who took out health insurance at 25 pays the same as a 25 year old but a 60 year old who took out health insurance at 55 would pay more to allow for the fact that he or she did not make the contributions when he or she was younger.

We have that legislation but it has not been enacted.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

No. The regulations have not been brought in.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

There are many complexities around it in terms of people who leave the country and how we deal with them but a key issue is that it is a system for a voluntary health insurance market. As we know and as Mr. Joyce pointed out, in a universal health insurance market that kind of system would-----

It would help to keep people in the system but Mr. Sloyan does not know why the regulations have not been introduced.

Six other speakers are offering. I will call the Deputy later.

On Deputy Naughten's point about enacting the guidelines to ensure balance is brought into the system, it may be a crude comparison but in respect of motor insurance, if someone has been driving since the age of 18, he or she has a no-claims bonus and that is accounted for, but we do not have the same incentive in the health insurance market even though the guidelines exist but have not been implemented. What is the reason for that?

To develop a point Deputy Ó Caoláin raised, figures I received from the Health Service Executive on outstanding amounts among private health insurance companies for treatment provided to private patents are in the order of €204 million. Of that €204 million, €100 million relates to claims under preparation in hospitals, something this committee has discussed previously. However, there is €104 million outstanding relating to claims submitted to insurers that are either being processed or are pending. The witnesses said in response to Deputy Ó Caoláin that it is a matter between the health care providers and the companies but as a health insurance authority, if the witnesses believe there is a practice whereby health insurance companies are withholding payment at the expense of the public purse, what can the HIA do to ensure that that substantial amount of money, based on the figures I received from the HSE, is paid? What action, if any, will the HIA take to address that?

I may be going into an area which is slightly outside the witnesses' remit. It concerns competition within the health care sector.

If that is the case, the Senator should not go there.

I am talking about the private health care sector. On the one hand, if the number of beds is increased, the level of competition increases, which could assist in reducing price. On the other hand, if the number of beds is increased, we are then creating a cashflow problem for the insurers in the sense that the more services provided, the more demand is placed on those services. It is about getting a balance. I raise that because I am aware of a company which was trying to provide extra facilities at a cheaper rate but it could not get cover from a particular insurance company.

We want to create competition to lower prices but there must be a balance in how the issue develops.

I am not sure if the next matter is under the remit of the witnesses. It concerns where practice has changed. People may have been required in the past to be admitted to hospital for a procedure but we have moved on, yet there may not be an adjustment to how payment is made. For example, payment would only be made in some cases to a medical practitioner if a person is admitted to hospital. In most cases certain procedures are done through day care. It seems there has been a slow changing of the rules in adapting to the medical changes that occurred.

Another issue is the requirement by the HSE to get consultants to sign claim forms where the consultant has not seen the patient. For example, a person may be admitted through the accident and emergency department to a ward and seen by a registrar before treatment is provided. The person may be admitted because he or she had health insurance and be treated as a private patient. May the HSE claim where the consultant has not seen the person, although the person would have been adequately looked after by a senior registrar? The cost factor must be considered.

I will be brief as Deputy Conway has asked a question I had in mind. There were also questions about the number of people and the demographic profile of people who have dropped out of insurance. How many people would the Health Insurance Authority deal with in a year?

Mr. Liam Sloyan

We spoke about normal insurance practices, such as no-claims bonuses, etc. The health insurance market is structured in a way that is very different to other insurance markets. A no-claims bonus would effectively be a benefit to healthier people but in the health insurance market the principle is that everybody pays the same, regardless of state of health or age. As it is structured that way, normal practices in insurance markets would not apply. With regard to the number of pending claims, our role relates to health insurance consumers and not arrangements between hospitals and insurers. It is a matter for the HSE and hospitals to ensure they get prompt payment with claims in accordance with rules.

Mr. Jim Joyce

One would expect a large number of claims in process at any time so it would not be unusual in any insurance market for there to be a delay between treatment and payment, etc. It is fair to say that the Health Insurance Authority does not have any information that there is a practice on the part of insurers to withhold or delay payments.

Can that be said with certainty?

Mr. Jim Joyce

I can say with certainty that we do not have that information.

Some people would say, anecdotally, that appears not to be the case.

No, it is a fair comment.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

The HSE and public hospitals are major institutions, so neither of them requires a consumer champion to help them sort out their issues. They should be able to manage on their own.

How do we explain in some cases the delay in transfer of funds?

Mr. Liam Sloyan

If the HSE or public hospitals are of the view that there are such delays in transfers of funds, it is up to them to address them. They are major institutions.

It can still cause undue concern if the unpaid bill is still sitting on a consumer's kitchen table. It can cause stress and anxiety for a consumer to see a huge bill on the kitchen table or sideboard. That is a consumer issue.

I concur as we have seen that happen. There seems to be a lacuna and it appears very convenient for one party to blame another. The consumer caught in the middle is being squeezed.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

I accept that it is important for insurers to ensure any claims paid are appropriate. Otherwise there would be an impact on premiums, which would also negatively affect consumers.

Mr. Jim Joyce

Questions were asked about lifetime community rating and why it was not implemented. It was considered for quite a while and the Health Insurance Authority made proposals to the Department on appropriate regulations. One of the reasons it has not been advanced is that it would be inconsistent with development towards universal health insurance, as it would not be appropriate in a universal health insurance environment. That is not to say that if lifetime community rating had been introduced some years ago, it would not have been a help, as that is certainly the case. I am explaining why if we are looking to the introduction of universal health insurance, it might not be in tune with the idea to introduce lifetime community rating at this point.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

Deputy Byrne asked how many people we deal with. In the past 12 months, some 5,000 people have telephoned the Health Insurance Authority asking for assistance, and there have been 400,000 contacts to the website.

Have those numbers been increasing?

Mr. Liam Sloyan

The numbers are increasing at a very fast rate. Our website is taking a significant amount of traffic. Many of the people on the website would have been looking at products for more than one person, so they are a significant proportion of private health insurance consumers.

I welcome the chairman and chief executive of the Health Insurance Authority. It has mentioned that two of the main supports of health insurance are open enrolment and lifetime cover. That is fine if health insurance is affordable. It was also mentioned that every year since 2008, 50,000 people cannot afford health insurance and leave the system. Health insurance costs are on the rise and employees are taking cuts. Every family feels it needs health insurance at affordable prices, as it is an essential safety blanket for many families. I keep mentioning the word "affordable".

Health insurance has helped many families through difficult times in knowing that medical bills will be paid. I have experience of that. I fully support the Minister's actions and it is very important that universal health insurance comes into effect as soon as possible at an affordable price.

I add my words of welcome. For the benefit of other members of the committee, the debate on the introduction of universal health insurance is frequently misunderstood. People keep referring to the Dutch model. What emerged from the synthesised programme for Government for the two coalition parties would more correctly be called the Deutsch model rather than the Dutch model. It involves a mixture of public, not-for-profit insurance entities - something like the VHI - in a market where there is competition with private insurance companies and various other types of insurance instrument. That is what exists in Germany, where the system is very successful. Of the large western countries, the Germans have by far the best health system, and it is far superior in all manner of outcomes to those working on the opposite principle of fixed general taxation and centralised command and control of administration.

The system, if introduced, would also involve the notion of a fixed percentage premium. The questions about cherry-picking would go.

Everyone would mandatorily have to pay a fixed percentage of income on health insurance. People with no income, and those with low incomes, would have it subsidised. That is how the general contribution should be made to the fund ultimately used for disbursement to hospitals.

On the question of incentives, the principle of community rating is incredibly important. People cannot help getting old and, in many cases, they cannot help getting sick. They should not be penalised and the concept of a no-claims bonus should not apply. However, people can help whether they smoke and it does make sense from the point of health insurance economics and, more importantly, as a public health measure, to give people as many incentives as we can to stop smoking. It is entirely reasonable for the insurance industry, in the new dispensation under universal health insurance, to have the fixed mandatory percentage adjusted downwards for people who do not smoke. Similarly, it is reasonable to do so for weight. People have some control over their weight and there is no doubt we need to enforce strict incentives in society to make people live a more healthy life.

I have a question on something that troubles me at the moment. In my day job, particularly in today's straitened circumstances, when I try to get new cancer drugs for patients, I am told by some of the smaller insurance companies that they will not approve drugs the VHI has not approved. Why is that not a cartel? I have used that word in discussing it with the smaller insurers and if they will only provide something if their alleged competitors-----

The health insurers will appear later and Senator Crown can ask that question at that point.

It may also be an issue for the authority, which provides a degree of regulation to the industry. The issue must be examined.

While I am not sure if my question is more appropriate to the following group, I cannot stay at this meeting because I must go to the Chamber. I have been a member of an insurance company, from which I received seven booklets. Looking at them and trying to go through them, they seem to be much the same but the plans seem to be getting more expensive as one moves to platinum and gold care. I could not see much of a difference. The insurers say it is fair but when one tell them one belongs to a body such as the INTO, one gets a much better price. Anecdotally, one gets the corporate rate if one asks for it on the telephone and if one plays hardball.

I worry about another other aspect. I took out medical insurance at a certain price. After two or three years, it had doubled. I cannot remember if I received a letter and I probably did but I would like the insurance companies to clear up whether they write to customers to explain the percentage increase. For the client, prices seem to be increasing and, unless one checks it year on year and compares the companies' prices, one may not be getting the best deal. I would like the companies to focus their replies on the customer trying to get a good price.

I welcome the witnesses. I am sorry for not being present for the earlier part of the presentation but I heard some of it, but not all, on the monitor. I am not sure if my questions have been addressed. The cost of renewing a health insurance premium for my young son increased by hundreds, if not thousands, of euro. With the contracting market of proportionately older members, what does the HIA think should be done to stop market contraction? What should be done to make health insurance more relevant and more affordable for younger members? Does the HIA take affordability of the market into account when trying to set levy amounts or should it merely seek to equalise differences for older and sicker members?

I am not sure of the issues I raised were outside the remit of the witnesses. They were not dealt with and I wonder whether the witnesses could refer to my questions on competition within the health care sector.

My question relates to a point raised earlier. The witnesses said that the person starting an insurance life in the early 20s pays much less by the time they get to 55 or 60 years than the person who enters the insurance market at 55 or 60 years of age. How much less?

Mr. Jim Joyce

In addressing the final point, that is not quite what Mr. Sloyan said. If one has the lifetime community rating arrangement, someone entering the market at the age of 25 would be paying a premium at the age of 60 based on the fact that they had entered the market at 25 years of age. If one enters the market at the age of 50, one would pay a higher premium because of the delayed entry. That arrangement does not yet apply here. Mr. Sloyan was only speculating as to how the situation may apply.

I am ignorant with regard to some of these matters but when I started my insurance at 21 or 22 years of age, I was of the view that by the time I got to 55 for 60 years, when people get ill, my premium would be reduced. For those leaving health insurance by the tens of thousand what benefit is there to them staying with their insurance cover?

Mr. Liam Sloyan

The benefits include the cover one has at the time. Anyone who wishes to leave the market must bear in mind that waiting periods arise on re-entry if one leaves for a certain amount of time. It is a case for each individual to decide whether to remain in the market and whether the premium is worth the cover.

Mr. Jim Joyce

It is worth saying that, in respect of the size of the market, we have an unusual situation in this country. We have a free public health system, as it were, while 50% of the population has private health insurance. When the original Health Insurance Act was introduced, between 30% and 35% of the population had private health insurance. We used to speculate about the maximum but we did not expect 50%. The market increased substantially over a long period before it started to reduce over recent years. The fact that such a high percentage of people have private health insurance, when there is a free public health service, is extraordinary.

Will Mr. Joyce address the questions posed by Senators Colm Burke, Eamonn Coghlan and Crown?

Mr. Jim Joyce

The questions of Senator Colm Burke fall outside our remit and concern competition, the availability of service and practice on admittance.

The issue about competition in the health care sector concerns a situation where an insurer decides to limit the number of beds it would cover. This creates a false market in that it prevents competition from arising.

Mr. Jim Joyce

They are competing with other insurers.

They are competing with other insurers but it is a problem if we do not have enough people providing health care.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

It is important that there is competition in respect of the market for health care providers. We must be conscious of the importance of the insurer making sure an appropriate level of service is being provided. The insurer must manage the level of service being provided. In the health insurance market, there is a concept called supplier-induced demand, which occurs where suppliers are incentivised to provide services. In some cases, the level of service provided increases, reflecting the commercial incentives. It is up to insurers to manage the level of services being provided to make sure they are appropriate. If more services are being provided, it will affect the price level of premiums.

Mr. Joyce spoke about driving increases and so on. I refer to people at home and people like Deputy Mitchell O'Connor, who raised her issue. Have we any good news for the consumer because all the consumer has seen is a spike in premiums? New technologies and facilities in and the modernisation of hospitals were mentioned. The costs are going up. Senator Coghlan was worried about his son. People at home have seen their premiums increase and we see from the authority's figures today and from its newsletter that there has been an exodus from private health insurance. I accept that regarding a segment of the market but people at home have had no good news.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

In regard to Deputy Mitchell O'Connor's questions, there are very large differences in price between products in the market providing very similar levels of cover. Most of those who have suffered very large price increases can actually save significant amounts of money, as Deputy Mitchell O'Connor said, by moving to certain plans. The important thing to note is that they have a right to move to those plans and can get the information about those products on our website or by telephoning us. We will be able to help them save that money.

That is not quite what I said. I said that if one is a member of a group or a corporate plan, one gets the same product but with a much bigger discount.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

Absolutely, but the point I would like to make is that while the plan might be called a corporate plan and the consumer might think he or she is not entitled to buy that because of the way it is presented, that is not the case. The consumer is entitled by law to buy that product. If he or she goes on to our website, he or she will be able to make the saving.

When one telephones, one has to ask that question, otherwise one is given the price of the dearer product. I suppose the message is to look for the cheapest price and the corporate or the group rate. Senator Coghlan could check it out and see if he can get a cheaper rate for his son.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

The other message we would like to send is that we are there to help people in that process because there are lot of products.

To be fair, the authority does so but Senator Coghlan, Deputy Mitchell O'Connor or the person at home should not have to seek that information. It should not be a treasure hunt. The insurance companies should make the information readily available, and we will ask them about that later. I also appreciate the volume of people in contact with the authority. To be fair to health insurers, when one contacts them, they respond but the concern I have is that the spike in premiums has forced an exodus from the private health insurance market which is a source of worry to the person at home who is balancing budgets.

On that point, Mr. Sloyan made the point that older people face greater premium increases because they are reluctant to switch and they are carrying a bigger burden. Is that not an admission that the authority has singularly failed to encourage people to switch from one policy to another? It is the authority's responsibility to encourage people to do that. That is the authority's main role in regard to the public. What specifically is the authority doing to try to address that issue among the older cohort of people?

Mr. Sloyan said claims were the biggest part of the increase in the cost of premiums but the VHI report stated that claims inflation is at 15%. Premiums have gone up 60%, so there is a gaping hole in that argument. Will Mr. Sloyan explain that?

The question I asked earlier, and which every member asked, is what incentives are there to grow the market and to try to keep young people in the market? Mr. Sloyan failed to give any answer. The only solution is to introduce lifetime community rating but it is pointless introducing that because we are moving to universal health insurance. The authority has no solutions to the haemorrhaging of people from the private health insurance system which will increase the cost significantly for older people who will not be able to afford to pay premiums if they keep raising.

Where premiums go up year on year, do the insurance companies inform the customers of a percentage increase or a monetary increase or do they give any notice?

Mr. Liam Sloyan

What one will see in renewals is the new price. I do not think that information is included in the renewal but I could be corrected by the insurers on that. We do not have a role in encouraging people to switch insurer.

What is the helpline, or website, about?

Mr. Liam Sloyan

It is to provide information so that those who wish to switch have the information to get the best value they can or it is for those considering switching or for those who want more information on health insurance. We have a role in providing information to consumers.

What is the authority doing specifically to deal with older consumers? The website is not much good to them.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

We also advertise our telephone number and take calls from people.

The authority is failing.

The website has been nominated for a European award.

Older people in rural Ireland do not have access to broadband.

I accept that.

That is pointless.

That is for a different committee.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

We advertise our telephone number but older people are reluctant to switch health insurance. That is to be expected because if one thinks one is going to use one's health insurance, it is a natural reaction to be more risk averse about switching it. That will be the case. We do what we can to provide people with information and to advertise our services but we will always face a situation where older people switch less frequently than younger people. I do not think we will be able to override that.

The other reason older people do not switch is that insurers do not want their business. If they follow the commercial incentives and if they sell insurance to an older person, they will lose money. If the seller of the product does not want to sell the product to a group for commercial reasons, it is natural that group will not be targeted or encouraged to switch by the insurers.

Mr. Sloyan has made the argument that his authority should be abolished.

That is not right.

In regard to the funding of the Health Insurance Authority, is it based on a percentage of the overall premiums paid? By extension, the more premiums, or the higher the increase in premiums, the more money the authority gets.

Mr. Liam Sloyan

That is right.

Is there any incentive, other than a moral obligation or whatever, to try to encourage a slowing down in the increase in premiums given that the authority gets more money if premiums increase?

Mr. Liam Sloyan

That would have no influence on us.

I am not saying it has an influence but is it not an unusual incentive?

Mr. Jim Joyce

If we find the levy is producing too much money, we recommend to the Minister that he or she should reduce it.

How much is there in reserve at the moment?

Mr. Jim Joyce

The reserves are €8 million.

I know there is competition among insurance companies but if there is no competition among the health care providers and if the authority considers it has no role in that, insurance will continue to increase. It is an issue which needs to be dealt with. I saw this in one area where there was one dominant player which did everything possible to ensure no competition was introduced. It was ridiculous that the Minister and everybody seemed powerless to deal with the issue. A health care provider was offering to provide health care at a lower cost than the dominant player. Unless we have competition among health care providers, we cannot have competition among health insurers. It is as simple as that.

Mr. Sloyan spoke about the market distortion in regard to the VHI health care not being regulated by the Central Bank. What is the impact, or knock-on effect, of that?

Mr. Liam Sloyan

The Central Bank's main functions relate to solvency issues and to a consumer protection code.

As long as the VHI is not subject to authorisation by the Central Bank, it will not be subject to those rules. The consumer protection code sets out what information should be provided to consumers at the point of sale and issues like that.

I thank Mr. Joyce and Mr. Sloyan for attending this meeting and interacting honestly and openly with the committee. We have had a good exchange of views. I remind Deputy Naughten, who was critical of the Health Insurance Authority website, that it has been nominated for an award. It is a very user-friendly website.

I have used the website and I fully accept that.

If we are to have a balanced debate, we should recognise that the website is informative.

The point is that older people cannot access it.

We will suspend the meeting while we wait for the health insurers to come in.

Sitting suspended at 10.51 a.m. and resumed at 10.55 a.m.

I welcome the witnesses from Aviva, VHI, GloHealth and Laya Healthcare to the second part of today's meeting. I will not go through the names of all those in attendance. I hope members have received the comprehensive presentations that the health insurers furnished to the joint committee. They have been circulated. I ask the various groups to confine their presentations to five or six minutes. That will ensure there is time for questions at the end. We have to conclude at a certain time.

This is an important meeting in the context of this country's health insurance system. Deputy Ó Caoláin has had to leave to go to another meeting. The health insurers will have observed the opening part of this meeting, during which representatives of the Health Insurance Authority confirmed that 2.1 million people, or 47% of the population, were covered by health insurance at the end of June 2012 and that there has been a reduction of almost 61,000 in the number of people with health insurance in the last year. The witnesses will have listened to the questions we asked about the many people who are struggling to keep up with their payments, abandoning their policies, cancelling some of their cover or shopping around to amend their policies. It is easy for us to understand how people are struggling to make payments. According to the Health Insurance Authority website, which was mentioned earlier in the meeting, ten statements announcing price increases in certain policies offered by health insurers have been issued in the last two months. In the last year and a half, each of the players in the health insurance market has announced at least three across-the-board price increases. As Deputy Naughten said earlier, reports in this morning's newspapers suggest that a further increase may be sanctioned in the future. Such measures are of concern to politicians and to people with health insurance who are struggling to maintain their policies.

Price is obviously the primary concern of the health insurance industry. We understand the industry faces a number of challenges. The health insurance market is underpinned by the principles of community rating, open enrolment and lifetime cover. The system is designed to ensure the premium a person pays is not determined by his or her age or health. The risk equalisation element of these principles will be rolled out over the next few months in a policy document and a Bill. We are interested to learn about the impact this will have on competition, price and profitability. The programme for Government provides for a move towards universal health insurance that is underpinned by the principles of social solidarity. I hope this morning's meeting will give us an opportunity to engage in a calm and balanced way. We look forward to hearing the views of the representatives of the health insurers. We hope they interact with the members of the committee.

I would like to remind the witnesses of the position on privilege. They are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary ruling and practice of the Chair to the effect that they should not criticise, comment on or make charges against a person or persons outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask the representatives of the VHI, Mr. Declan Moran, who is the director of marketing and business development, Mr. John O'Dwyer, who is the chief executive, and Dr. Bernadette Carr, to make their opening remarks.

Mr. John O'Dwyer

On behalf of VHI, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to talk about our ideas on universal health insurance. We fully support universal health insurance, which probably represents the single biggest change in the area of health in this country in decades. We are committed to playing our part in the successful implementation. We sent the committee a letter with slides giving more detail. I will pick a few key points from those slides.

We believe the key objective of universal health insurance is to get away from the two-tier system and have a one-tier system with equal access to our health care system for all citizens. We need to have an efficient high quality health care system that rewards good outcomes. For universal health insurance to work many things must be in place and I will highlight three. The annual budget concept that takes place in many of our public hospitals must stop. The Minister has mentioned many times that the money must follow the patient. Patient activity and the outcomes for those patients must define where the money goes.

There must be competition between providers. Clearly we believe there must be very tight rules in the marketplace to ensure there are no incentives for risk selection. We all believe in community rating; it is Government policy. For community rating to work we must have good goalkeepers and good policing, which means a very comprehensive risk-equalisation scheme.

I joined the VHI a few months ago and-----

I apologise, I should have congratulated Mr. O'Dwyer on his appointment.

Mr. John O'Dwyer

I joined the VHI a few months ago and I find it bizarre that if certain long-serving loyal customers leave us, we will make more money. I do not know any business which would gain if their longest serving loyal customers left. I find it a challenge. With universal health insurance, clearly there must be funds and there has to be a system.

Prior to joining the VHI, I was very lucky to work for the largest health insurer in Holland, Achmea. I worked for it in a few different countries. The Dutch model is one we could consider. I do not say it is perfect. There are three forms of funding as follows: taxpayers pay a percentage of their income into a fund; people who can afford it have mandatory private health insurance and they pay this into a fund; and where people cannot afford it - in Holland they give it free for children - this money is also put into a fund. This fund is then allocated on very strict criteria. The criteria include age and health status. I will give a real-life example from Holland. The allocation for a 30 year old healthy male was €400. However, the allocation for a 32 year old suffering from diabetes with some complications was €12,500. That gives a sense of the distortion of two young people in their 30s, one healthy and one not healthy. There is a multiple difference in the treatment costs for these people.

Clearly, there must be good competition and all incentives must be aligned. A core philosophy for universal health insurance is that nobody should be allowed to make money by cherry-picking or managing risk. People should be allowed to make money if they deliver better deals with hospitals and consultants. They should be allowed to make money if they look after the health care needs of their customers and they deliver excellent customer service for their members. Clearly health insurers need to be free to contract with public and private providers.

There are a number of critical enablers. While clearly for all major initiatives such as this many things are needed, information and technology systems will play a key part. We see a key role for VHI in this and the authorisation of VHI is crucial. VHI can play a key part in the successful implementation of universal health insurance. We have the experience. We have nearly 1.2 million customers with 57% of the market share while paying 80% of the claims in the market. Some years ago we took many initiatives to manage the health care of our members, including the screening of 30,000 of them, many of them for diabetes. We have also started home care to try to reduce the cost of having people in hospital care. This year alone we will save 12,000 bed days with this initiative. We believe VHI has the experience and wherewithal to help implement this universal health insurance.

All incentives for providers, insurers and policymakers must be aligned to ensure we have cover for all people and that we reward good health care outcomes. A good start has been made here. One of the key enablers of universal health insurance is a good risk equalisation system. A draft Bill has been published and we believe this is a key foundation for universal health insurance and it must ensure there is no incentive for risk selection in the market. The insurers should be primarily focused on driving down health care costs and delivering excellent customer services. We believe the VHI is very capable of supporting these objectives.

In recent years the VHI has had a very comprehensive cost containment programme. I am very pleased with what I have seen and there have been many improvements. We can all throw out percentages, but sometimes some figures are worth highlighting. A few years ago a cataract operation cost €1,600 and today it costs €1,000. Stents, which represent a key part of any procedure, used to cost approximately €1,100 and today cost €200. A few years an MRI scan was quite unique and cost €600 on average. Today it costs €180. I understand we are the cheapest in Europe, with the possible exception of Bulgaria.

The VHI is very supportive of the Government's objective of universal health insurance and we believe we are well positioned and capable of supporting its implementation.

I again thank Mr. O'Dwyer on his appointment and I wish him well in his term.

I apologise to the remaining witnesses that a vote has been called in the Dáil - we are a parliamentary democracy - and we will need to suspend until after the vote has concluded.

Sitting suspended at 11.10 a.m. and resumed at 11.25 a.m.

We will resume. I apologise to witnesses who have been waiting and to staff and members for the delay, due to a vote. I now call on Mr. Jim Dowdall, CEO of GloHealth, and welcome him and Ms Teresa Kelly Oroz to the meeting.

Mr. Jim Dowdall

I thank the Chairman and the committee for providing GloHealth with the opportunity to discuss the critical issues facing the health insurance market. I am joined by my colleague, Ms Teresa Kelly Oroz, our legal and regulatory director.

Government policy is to implement a system of universal health insurance. For a transition to universal health insurance to work, the current health insurance market must be kept affordable and competitive. However, over the past four years, health insurance has become less affordable and, as a result, the market has reduced in size, with more than 174,000 previously insured people now dependent on the public health system.

Members of this committee know more about people's fears and concerns than anyone on this side of the table. At weekly clinics they meet constituents who cannot pay mortgages, struggle with bills, have reduced earnings and are worried about the health and welfare of their families. However, today the committee has the opportunity to do something for the 2.1 million people who have health insurance, for those who are dependent on the over-burdened health system and for the 6,000 people per month who have had to or have been forced to give up their health insurance. They are giving it up, not because they want to cease cover but because they cannot afford it.

Health insurance has become unaffordable for many because of a failed policy relating to the implementation of the health insurance levy. Through its work today, this committee can shine a light on this failed policy. This policy may have been sustainable in the Celtic tiger years, when the health insurance market was growing year on year, but it is certainly the wrong policy for the recession-hit Ireland of today. This failed policy is driving consumers away from private health insurance and risks creating a vicious circle where, in the end, health insurance will be unaffordable for everybody.

GloHealth firmly supports the concept of community rating and intergenerational solidarity. Community rating can only work if it is sustainable, and it can only be sustainable if private health insurance is affordable. The facts do not lie. The health insurance levy has increased by almost 80% in just three years. In 2012, the levy adds €760 to the annual health insurance cost of a family of two adults and two children. In many cases, the levy accounts for approximately 40% of the cost of health insurance.

Let us be honest - the Government levy is a stealth tax on health insurance customers. In recent years it has driven a vicious circle of rising premiums, leading to more than 174,000 cancellations by young families and individuals who are impacted on most by the recession. According to the Health Insurance Authority, there has been a 12% reduction in the number of policies which include children. As the pool of younger, healthier members gets smaller, the cost of insurance for those remaining inevitably increases. Moreover, fewer patients with health insurance leads to greater pressure on the public health system which is under huge strain and over budget. The committee is dealing with the consequences of that strain on a weekly basis. It is critical for the economic well-being of the country that we maintain our competitiveness. Health insurance is viewed as a core employment benefit by most large multinationals in Ireland, but the levy is forcing up their labour costs.

We need a change of direction and I call on the committee to lead that change. Having resolved before the meeting to offer solutions, as well as emphasising the challenges, I will set out three proposals for action. First, we urge the Minister to reduce or, at a minimum, freeze the health insurance levy. Research by the Health Insurance Authority suggests that if the levy was reduced, lapsed policyholders would come back into the market. We all recognise that an increase in the younger population base will make health insurance more affordable for everybody. A further increase in the levy is not necessary to subsidise further an already profitable VHI.

Second, we recommend that the Minister exempt children from the levy. It is currently set at €95 per child per annum, which is almost the same as the household charge. At a time when there is so much emphasis on children's health and children's rights, it seems truly unjust to impose a tax on children to support the health costs of adults. Abolishing the levy on insured children would make health insurance more affordable for hard-pressed families. If the levy is removed, GloHealth will immediately be positioned to reduce the cost of its health insurance products.

Third, we urge the committee to ensure a stated objective of the Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill 2012 is to ensure affordability across society and avoid discouraging younger and healthier consumers from entering the market.

Nobody is under any illusion about the challenges facing the Government in framing the next budget and the added burden its provisions will place on all members of society. The health insurance levy is Exchequer neutral in that it is not a revenue raising measure. However, the spiralling cost of health insurance has a significant impact on 2.1 million people in this country. We are very concerned at the failure today of the representatives of the Health Insurance Authority to undertake to address the overall affordability issue and the contraction evident in the market. At our meeting with representatives of the Department of Health last week we asked for an assurance that the health insurance levy would not be increased at the end of the year. We were disappointed that such an assurance was not forthcoming. The committee can play a very positive role on behalf of consumers by urging the Government not to increase the levy further for 2013 and to address the key issue of affordability.

I thank the Chairman and members for their time.

I thank Mr. Dowdall. I welcome Mr. Sean Egan, chief executive officer, and his colleagues, Ms Alison Burns and Mr. John Armstong, of Aviva Health Insurance. I invite Mr. Egan to make an opening statement.

Mr. Sean Egan

I thank the Chairman and members for giving us the opportunity to make a presentation to the committee. As copies of our submission have been circulated, I will keep my comments as brief as possible in the interests of time and sustaining people's general interest.

We focus in our paper, as others have done today, on current market developments. The issue of most concern to us is the reduction in numbers taking out private health insurance in the past five years and the fact that this reduction is particularly noticeable in the 20 to 29 year age cohort. Given the relative average claims cost per person of older versus younger claimants, it is clear that having a strong base of younger customers is what sustains the whole system. If we do not have enough younger people coming in to subsidise existing members as they get older and require more medical care, we will see premiums being driven up. That will be a major cause of concern for us in the coming years.

It is important that we work together to ensure the young and healthy continue to take out insurance. That will require insurers to manage their cost bases, as has been mentioned several times today, through internal efficiencies, negotiations with external providers and so on. These are actions we are already taking, as, I am sure, are our competitors. The State can play its role by not imposing other, external costs on insurers in a way that will make it difficult for them to manage their own costs. Whether one is talking about the levy, charges for private designated beds in public hospitals and so on, all have an immediate impact on the cost of insurance.

In regard to risk equalisation, our position is that we have been expecting this legislation for the past three years or so. We are in this market and support the introduction of risk equalisation. We have a genuine desire to work with the Department of Health on this issue, but we need the dialogue to be constant and timely and to see more of it. We have had a useful engagement in recent weeks and some issues have been taken on board, for which we are grateful to the Department. However, we still have concerns about the legislation.

On the question of whether risk equalisation will inevitably lead to an increase in prices, I am not convinced that it will. It is very much a question of getting the detail right and operating to a sensible time line. On the other hand, on being told, with only ten days notice, that one must produce a set of revised plans and so on, I cannot find the right word to express how ridiculous that is. As a responsible company, we have to be able to anticipate what is coming up. The 150% solvency requirement means we will have to put more capital into the business, which might well lead to price increases. The industry has got it wrong on occasion, as we did in the case of the levy increases earlier this year. In that instance, we scrambled to put up prices up for a period to make up for the fact that we did not understand what was happening in the first place. All such issues can be managed by taking the right amount of time to get the legislation right. I am not talking about years - it probably only needs another month or two - but it is vital that we understand what is being proposed and can put it into effect in the products we offer.

The problem of young and healthy people leaving the health insurance market is often described as a vicious circle. If it continues, price rises are inevitable because there will be insufficient numbers to subsidise the older, sicker cohorts. That, in turn, will lead to more people leaving the market, thus putting greater stress on the public system. We must find a way to prevent this cycle. I am somewhat dismayed that some of the focus in discussing the legislation has been on "segmentation", which seems to have become a dirty word. I am not sure what interpretation people are putting on that word, but one segment is 20 to 29 year olds and I intend to focus hard on getting more of them into the market. Every insurer must focus on having a sustainable and affordable business.

Aviva is absolutely committed to the introduction of universal health insurance. We are ready to be engaged with and to work with the Government on the issue. For now, however, our focus is on risk equalisation and understanding and better managing the implications for the market.

Thank you, Mr. Egan. I welcome Mr. Dónal Clancy, managing director of Laya Healthcare, and Mr. David Muiry, head of global health at the Swiss Re Group.

I thank them for their attendance and invite Mr. Clancy to make his presentation.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

I thank the Chairman and joint committee for giving us this opportunity. At the outset, I wish to introduce my colleague, David Muiry, who is head of global health for Swiss Re and a member of the board of Elips Insurance Limited, which is the underwriter of Laya Healthcare. I thought it was important to put this in an international context and that it would be interesting to hear about universal health insurance from a broader perspective than the national perspective because obviously this is something to which we aspire in Ireland, rather than have at present. The themes that have come up appear to be along the same lines we were speaking about and funnily enough, thus far all the insurers have been in agreement on a couple of matters. One is the current market is becoming unaffordable and that young and healthier people are being driven out of the market. The more of those young and healthier people who leave the market, the more complex it gets and the more costly it gets for the older. Thereafter, one is talking about an unsustainable market after some time. The drivers of this trend are known and include a substantial levy, by which I mean the net impact in respect of both age related tax relief and the levy to pick up on an earlier point. In addition, the claims charges and what is happening with the claims costs in Ireland must be addressed. One other factor which has not been emphasised sufficiently today is that the consumers themselves are in a recession. People in Ireland today are suffering, although in my view the perception is a lot worse then the reality, but it drives-----

Is a mobile telephone ringing? It is fine now and Mr. Clancy may proceed.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

Perhaps it was this device, which I will put away.

It may have been. The Oireachtas is very sensitive.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

An element that must be brought out is the recession and even the perception of how bad it is also drive people's behaviour. For example, people may think they had avoided having that dodgy knee seen to for quite a while but that now is the time to so do. Alternatively, people might think they could be out of a job next year, etc. rather than what actually is the reality. This both drives and changes people's behaviour.

Fundamentally, however, as a country we must establish that we have a good system, we need intergenerational solidarity and we must protect community rating. Laya Healthcare is behind that but it must be done effectively and efficiently. There is no point in instigating a system that drives inefficiencies and causes the overall affordability and the consumer to suffer more than is necessary. While we have some suggestions in this regard, I revert to universal health insurance and the ultimate destination we would like to reach. Laya Healthcare is fully supportive of this idea as to us, the idea of developing a multi-insurer universal health insurance market is a really good idea and is something towards which we should work. Moreover, any legislation, levies or interim measures that are introduced now should be following a roadmap towards this final destination. We believe one key element in this regard is meaningful engagement. It has been discussed in this joint committee both previously and today but in reality, we have found very little meaningful engagement. When the insurers get around the table with all the other stakeholders, we participate, there is co-operation and I believe good solutions are arrived at. However, we also are of the view that this opportunity is not taken often enough and the future path to success in this regard involves greater engagement with all the stakeholders. In particular, for example, the universal health insurance working group has no representative from the health insurance market on it. In addition, consulting on particular elements of legislation after they are published is a lot less productive than so doing before publication.

However, to move on, when looking at solutions and the current position, I note this is an unusual market. Each market is different and we are in a voluntary market in which penetration is exceptionally high at approximately 50%. However, a highly diverse element of products is contained therein. We must get the consumer to the centre of this. Our view is to support the continuation in the market of the healthier people and younger people. We concur with much of what has been stated here today. We see no reason one cannot, in the interim solutions that are being proposed, have age-at-entry provisions to get more people into the market at a younger age to help to sustain its community rated elements. It also makes no sense to us for children to be paying a levy. We believe this all acts as a disincentive to families and for their future of this market. Ultimately, in the current situation one is talking about a price spiral. Basically, people leave the market but the more people who do so, the more the claims costs rise for those who remain and the more their claims costs increase, the more the price must rise. As a group, our incentive should be to incentivise the younger and healthy people to stay in the market and equally, to then work out what actually must be done with regard to risk equalisation.

On a future roadmap, if one considers universal health insurance and the ultimate goal of attaining it, there must be a change of practice. The current two days notice for something to happen in legislation, two days notice for the price of a public hospital bed or a couple of days notice for the price of the levy, do not encourage good management. This does not encourage us and I believe my colleague from Aviva mentioned the guessing game. If one is in a position in which substantial costs may be put on anyone with two days notice, the reaction will be equally disproportionate. This is what is happening at present in the market and we must get away from that. We have made proposals that would allow for reasonable trade-in time in any of these legislative changes and would welcome any movement that gets us there. The roadmap to the future must have a clear plan which gets us meaningful timing and management of our prudential elements that are required for the normal insurance market. In that frame, for example, we welcome that the VHI is to be regulated this year and hope it will pass on this occasion. Our perception is that if a reasonable roadmap and plan is put into action in the current legislation, we ultimately will get to universal health insurance.

I thank all four insurers for their presentations and for the varying degrees of challenge and sobriety therein.

I apologise for having ducked out of the meeting, thereby missing some of the presentations, but I believe my questions will relate to all four insurers represented here today. I thank the witnesses for their attendance. Towards the end of his presentation, Mr. Clancy referred to incentivising people to get into the private health insurance market. While the easiest part is saying that, I seek information on what steps could be taken to incentivise people to join private health insurance. When referring to risk equalisation, I assume that all insurers are of the opinion that risk equalisation is essential and necessary in a civilised society in which there is intergenerational solidarity and dependency. At the same time, however, I refer to a concern shared by many members, who could not get these answers from the Health Insurance Authority. In respect of older people obviously costing insurers more, it is clear that if we continue as we are, premiums will escalate continually. We should be honest about this and the risk equalisation measures being proposed will further exacerbate this issue. Thereafter, one will have a continual falling out of younger people from the insurance market, which will perpetuate the price spiral to which Mr. Clancy referred.

The key question for the insurers is what policy decisions should be made that would reduce the cost to insurers for public beds, for example. I refer to the full costs being recouped for private patients in public beds. As for the €125 million that was being paid upfront by the insurers to address the budget deficit for this year, it appears that within a matter of days of this measure being announced, it also was indicated that the cost of premiums would increase. Is this a sort of quid pro quo for an upfront payment? In itself, this would mean that it is not the insurers but the policyholders who are plugging the gap in the deficit. I invite witnesses to address this issue when making their concluding remarks.

Primarily however, risk equalisation is an accepted practice and this is legislation that will come before the Dáil. What impact do the witnesses believe it will have on the cost of providing health cover for people? Will it act as a further disincentive? Very few people are telling me what, as policymakers, members can do to incentivise people to take up private health insurance. Clearly, this is the key issue if we are trying to move to a universal health insurance model.

There is a perception that moving to a universal health insurance model will be almost free for everybody, but there will be a huge cost in providing it. This idea that it is almost free to us all and that few people will be paying for it, is erroneous. The fact is that, as it stands, those who have private health insurance will be contributing an awful lot more to provide universal health insurance. They are contributing through general taxation. If one moves to the model that is being discussed, I am concerned that there would be major increases for people who have private health insurance, both directly and indirectly in terms of taxation.

Has any analysis been done by various insurers on the potential cost of universal health insurance to their clients? I know we are slightly talking in the dark because we are waiting for a commission to report on universal health insurance and what type of model will be adopted. That will certainly generate much further discussion but it remains an area of concern.

As regards providers, I was always under the impression that more competition in the marketplace would drive down costs. There seems to be a view among some health insurers that the fewer facilities that are available the better it is for them. I thought that the more hospitals that came on stream, together with competition between public and private facilities, would ultimately be good for insurers. However, there is a view among some insurers that the fewer hospitals they have the better. What is the reasoning or logic behind that?

Senator Colm Burke referred to a hospital in Mahon, in Cork, where there was a lot of resistance from the VHI to covering that. There may be very good reasons for it, but I am still at a loss as to understand what those reasons are. Those are the issues I am concerned about. How will we incentivise young people to take out health insurance and how will we generate more competition by health care providers?

Senator Crown will give out to me about this, but in talking to some insurers they mention consultants - not necessarily consultants' pay but how the whole health care system is delivered. There needs to be streamlining and more efficiencies must be brought to bear on that. What suggestions or recommendations do the insurers have in that respect?

Were insurers invited to make submissions to the commission on universal health insurance? Why was there no insurers' representative on the commission? In advance of the commission being established, did insurers make their views known that they wanted to have a representative on it?

I have a couple of quick points. People really need to think through the full implications of what will happen if we have universal health insurance. In the first instance, it will be compulsory and people will have to pay for it. It is that simple. It will be like tax, it will be the law. If it is not done that way it will not work at all. The necessary corollary is that tax should go down by the amount one is paying for health insurance. On a level playing field, if everybody is paying an 8% fixed contribution to a health insurance plan, they should pay 8% less tax. It is that simple. That is the way it will work. That gives a pot of money which is available to the insurers which gives them, acting on behalf of their members - and I would like to see a mixture of profit and not-for-profit insurers, but I hope mainly the latter - not their customers, tremendous negotiating power with the people who deliver health care.

In partial answer to what Deputy Kelleher said, one of the issues is that one cannot have a completely free market in this respect for a couple of reasons. Number one, people ultimately do not make the choice for the operation or treatment they have. Somebody else makes it for them, and that person often gets paid if they do it. That is a concept in health economics called "supplier-induced demand". There are ways of combating that and policing it in a properly efficient and competitive market.

The same thing goes for hospitals. If a new private hospital opens in an area where there are lots of privately insured people, it sees gaps in the market which it tries to exploit. I am not saying "exploit" in any kind of pejorative sense, but it does tend to increase the demand for services. There will need to be a system of registering, licensing and approving any new health care facility, even in any new dispensation which is based entirely on universal health insurance.

There is a real risk that we are in a tremendously vulnerable interim phase right now. We are all looking at this nirvana over the hill, after our 40 years wandering through the desert, of universal health insurance with a truly liberated system based on the principles of equity and efficiency. It is one which will have many sullen, resentful, recently unemployed health bureaucrats and civil servants shuffling around wondering what their next job will be. However, while we are on our way to that promised land, we will have a situation where the market is very unstable because people do not have a compulsion to take insurance. They are not likely to use the health system because they are young and healthy so why, in recessionary times when they are having trouble meeting their other bills, should they start paying for health insurance? That is the problem.

The Minister has stated - sadly, in my opinion - that he will not introduce the reform until after the next election. As I have said here before, that is a bit like looking at one's new bride at the church altar and saying "I promise I'll be faithful to you after the first five years of marriage". It is something we need to do now because all the things we are trying to do before that are basically putting palliative Band-Aids across a great big gaping malignant wound that we need to fix with the radical surgery of reform in introducing uniform health insurance. When we introduce it, three things must be borne in mind. If it follows the vision we hope it does, it will be very equitable. Everybody will be able to take their negotiable insurance instrument to any hospital in the country. There will be no concept that some hospitals are only open to some people, or that some doctors will only be available to some people. Everybody will go at the same level, so it will increase equity. It will also hugely increase efficiency because the current system incentivises inefficiency in the public - and to a lesser extent in our private - system. It will cost more, however, and there is no getting away from that.

The Beveridge model of general taxation-derived, central command and control, bureaucratised health care, à la the British national health service, is brilliant for containing costs. It is not bad for equity, either, but it is terrible for access. That is why the countries that follow that model always have the longest waiting lists in the world. They are always the ones that have decreased access to cancer drugs and, as we are now seeing from statistics - generated both in my own research unit and the Karolinska Institute - they have inferior cancer outcomes.

My questions are twofold, one general one and one specific one which I asked in a different context earlier this morning. Do the witnesses think that enough attention is being paid to whether we have the skill set in our hospitals to manage this big change? Do the people who are currently working as administrators in our hospitals - and are used to being given a cheque at the beginning of the year and told to make it last until New Year's Eve - have the skills to be able to work in a different environment? In the latter environment, instead of their normal instinct to turn patients away when times get rough, their instinct will have to change to working out how they can attract more patients. I am not sure we have that.

I wish to raise a small, technical issue with the witnesses collectively. On multiple occasions in recent years - and sadly it will become more pressing in our new health and pharmaco-economic dispensation, which I must say I would resist with every fibre in my body - I have had experience of some of the smaller insurers declining the use of a drug saying that the VHI is not paying for it. Could somebody please explain to me why that is not a cartel, if somebody says: "The VHI is not going to pay for it, so we're not"? About 15 years ago, when doctors signed up to taking lower fees in return for patients not getting balanced billing, our consultants' association office was raided at dawn by whatever the local equivalent of Eliot Ness was from the Competition Authority. I would like to know why is this kind of behaviour not a cartel.

First of all, I have a few questions for Mr. John O'Dwyer of the VHI. The first one concerns the whole solvency of the VHI. What is the deficit and what will the taxpayer have to put in to meet that shortfall? Has the deficit increased or reduced over the last couple of years?

Has the Milliman report, on the operation of the VHI, been implemented in full? If not, what aspects of it have not been implemented? That particular report flagged inefficiencies concerning the claims system, so have they now been addressed? Is the VHI as efficient as it can be concerning claims?

Senator Crown made the point that under a UHI system people will be able to go to any hospital they like. Mr. O'Dwyer was involved in the Dutch insurance industry, so is it the case in Holland that all insurers cover people to access all the hospitals or do they have a situation like ours?

We see in today’s newspapers that one will have to ring up one’s insurer to see if it will provide cover in a particular hospital for a particular procedure. There have been numerous problems where people have not been covered after getting treatment and, subsequently, faced significant bills. There is the example of a hospital in Mahon, Cork, not being covered. There is a concern that under universal health insurance, UHI, insurers may not cover all hospitals, particularly the smaller hospitals like my own in Roscommon which does not have an accident and emergency department. Such a move will undermine the viability of the hospitals affected and cause them reputational damage. It will also reduce choice for patients in smaller population pockets and not allow them access to local hospitals. Under UHI, will the insurers cover all hospitals? Are there circumstances at the moment where the insurers would not cover all hospitals? That would have a significant impact in public hospitals if there were such a move in that direction.

Up to 200 people a day are ending their health insurance, mainly younger people. What can be done to keep them in the market? What can be done to drive down costs of treatment? Yesterday morning, I, along with Senators John Crown and Colm Burke, attended a briefing from the Economist Intelligence Unit at which it pointed out that 40% of the EU population over the age of 15 has a chronic disease. The long-term treatment of such chronic diseases has a significant impact on the overall cost of health insurance for society as a whole. What can be done to deal with this?

Senator John Crown asked earlier why a smoker should pay the same insurance premium as a non-smoker under the UHI model. However, under risk equalisation, why should someone involved in a risky habit get the same level of cover for the same price as someone who is scraping to make ends meet? The regulator stated claims are driving up premiums. The Voluntary Health Insurance, VHI, report stated claims have gone up by 15%. Yet, insurance premiums have gone up significantly more than that. More important, the total value of claims has gone down by 5.6%, mainly due to driving down consultants’ fees. Maybe the VHI should be negotiating with them rather than the Department of Health. What savings can be made in the public hospitals system, as that seems to be a fixed cost?

Mr. John O'Dwyer

We concur with Mr. Dónal Clancy in that we have no difficulty with age and entry being a good incentive to bring young people into the market. Clearly, the Government’s long-term objective is UHI. If that happens in the next four years, it will present a dilemma for us. How the UHI model is designed is still up for discussion but one could exclude smokers or overweight people. However, to the best of my knowledge this is not the case in other countries. I am open to correction but it is the lower economic groupings that are predominantly smokers and overweight. I personally do not have a difficulty if it were the case to exclude them. However, this would be disadvantaging the lower members of our society.

VHI pays 80% of the claims in the market. We have a 48 hour turnaround and never delay claims in any way. Our claims department is fully accredited with ISO standards. In cases where some hospitals found it difficult on the administration side, we gave them advances.

According to information the committee has, as of the end of September, €204 million is due to the Health Service Executive, HSE, from private health insurance companies.

Mr. Declan Moran

We have a process with many private hospitals where they would be within 30 day submission periods of getting paid. Once we get a valid claim, there is no differentiation whether it comes from a public or private hospital or a consultant. We do not have that amount of money sitting in the system. When a valid claim comes in, it gets paid very quickly regardless of whether it is public or private.

Mr. John O'Dwyer

The Dutch system covers all health suppliers. One does not need such cover and it is open to how we design our system. The Health Consumer Powerhouse, an accredited body, analyses health provision in all countries. For the past three years it has made the Dutch system number one, stating UHI is one of the key reasons for its success. It is not a panacea, however. Competition among providers happens but not to the extent the Dutch wanted. While it has its minuses, the people in Holland are very happy with their health care system.

On the question of solvency, our number one objective is to ensure we are prepared to get full authorisation in the next 12 months. We have been voluntarily compliant with the consumer protection code but, clearly, solvency is an issue for us. One significant determinant of the solvency position will be how good and tight the risk equalisation system is. We will work with the Government on this but there are many options we are exploring.

What will be the cost of it?

Mr. John O'Dwyer

It will be in excess of €100 million.

Mr. Jim Dowdall

On Deputy Billy Kelleher’s question about what steps are needed to incentivise people to join health insurance schemes, I spoke earlier about the need for a critical mass of insured members in the market to make health insurance affordable for everybody - the older, the younger, the healthier and the sicker individuals. The Health Insurance Authority, HIA, identified that if health insurance were affordable, more people would be attracted back into the market. The single largest component of health insurance cost is the health insurance levy. It is €760 for two adults and two children. This can be reduced. If it were, there would be an opportunity to attract people back into a market and making it more affordable and sustainable.

The Deputy also asked what policy decisions could be implemented to reduce the cost to insurers. There is a single biggest opportunity and there is a quick-win opportunity sitting there. The second relates to the setting of prices for the public hospitals. That is something on which there is no control and no negotiation capability. The Government, if it is serious about trying to make health insurance more affordable, can ensure that the scale of price increases that have been declared for health insurers over recent years reduces.

The Deputy asked the impact the risk equalisation scheme will have. Unfortunately, we are only a short number of weeks away from the end of the year when a permanent scheme needs to be implemented and we have not yet been provided with the detail on that scheme. That is something that disappoints all of the insurers. This was raised at a very late meeting with the Department of Health which took place last week. We do not have the detail of the scheme that will be implemented. In the limited level of detail that we were provided, we identified many holes.

Why has Mr. Dowdall not been given that information?

Mr. Jim Dowdall

That is a good question for the committee to ask the Department of Health. It is something we requested on many occasions.

From when?

Mr. Jim Dowdall

Going back quite a while.

Is that going back quite a while, in terms of the calendar year?

Mr. Jim Dowdall

This is an issue that I would be aware was raised by all insurers last year and early this year. The Department, in a presentation at the start of this year, committed that it would engage and consult with all insurers in quarter two of this year, and that did not happen.

Is the health insurance consultative forum operational and can Mr. Dowdall do it through that?

Mr. Jim Dowdall

That is the mechanism we are using. We met on Friday last and we will meet this week. My point is there is only a short number of weeks left before the Bill must be-----

My information is that you have met on six occasions as a group. Is that correct?

Mr. Jim Dowdall

We still have not been furnished with detail of the Bill.

I will move on to a number of other points. Senator Crown identified correctly that there is real risk now because we are in a very vulnerable stage in terms of migrating from one system to another, and I would fully agree. The Senator mentioned a number of important matters, that there is an equitable system and we do not support inefficiencies. There is a big challenge for us. There are inefficiencies inherent in the system. I will go back to my point in terms of not being able to negotiate the cost for public hospitals. We know in many cases today that the cost of procedures in private hospitals are cheaper than the costs in public hospitals and that private hospitals are more efficient and can have much greater throughput.

Senator Crown asked is there enough attention to the skill set in the public hospitals to address this issue. I do not believe there is the experience necessary to address this or that it is being utilised to the extent that it can. The issue is that 174,000 additional members have been driven back into the public health system and demand is increasing. There is an opportunity to alleviate the demand while the public system transforms itself and we have to find a way to do that.

I will take the Senator's questions on drugs, although some of the other insurers may hold a different view. The challenge in the market is that the VHI is still a dominant player, and coming previously from a monopoly position. It is an unfortunate reality that if the VHI decides not to cover a new drug, for example, then a much smaller competitor cannot cover the cost of that high cost drug because it would then be left to take all the risk and all of those who would use that new drug. Unfortunately, one cannot do so because it would make a smaller health insurer less viable. The issue of the VHI dominance-----

Mr. Dowdall has just given a perfect definition of a cartel.

Mr. Jim Dowdall

It is a reality in the market. It is not a cartel. The issue is that there is a dominant player which sets the pricing in the market and there is a challenge. The other insurers find it difficult to negotiate with the private hospital providers and get rates that are comparable to a VHI rate because it has that dominant procurement effect.

There were a couple of points raised by Deputy Naughten. He asked would we cover all public hospitals. The same point applies. One potential issue is that in some cases the cost of the public hospitals is increasing and they may become much more costly than the cost of private hospitals. At present, all public hospitals are covered. If we see a continuation of the recent increases, it is questionable whether that is sustainable in the future.

On the issue of 200 people a day leaving, Deputy Naughten is correct that we need to find a way to correct that slide. The principal objective of the Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill 2012 should not be designed to prevent health insurers from attracting new members into the market or to restrict innovation. There are ways that we can drive more innovation in the market but the Bill is shaped to try to curtail that, and that does not make sense.

Deputy Naughten's last question related to smoking. Of course, there are opportunities to change our approach here and encourage people to take a healthier outlook on life. We believe there are. I do not think they are being considered. On lifetime community rating, the answer we received was that it was complicated. It has been complicated for many years. It is time to move this on and start implementing some of these mechanics that will make this much more viable and sensible.

I hope I addressed the questions raised.

Ms Alison Burns

I will make one or two comments first and then my colleague, Mr. Armstrong, will add to our responses.

There has been a valid question raised, which is the piece about attracting younger people into the market and how one would do so. One would do it by product design, disease management and innovation. For example, at Aviva, we have introduced a new back-up service to help people manage bad backs. There would be a good example of trying to help reduce claims cost.

There should be no levy increase. It has been firmly established today that unless we change something, we should expect nothing other than what we have had previously. While lifetime community rating is a big challenge, and we accept that if we move to UHI, a question arises which, if one wanted to solve it today, lifetime community rating would create that environment.

In terms of the comments about smokers and overweight persons, this fascinates me. In other markets in which Aviva works, for example, a customer can tell Aviva his or her weight and cholesterol level and confirm that he or she does not smoke, and then get a discount on his or her premium because he or she is less likely to claim. If we were to introduce that under the Bill, as currently drafted, we could technically be sent to prison. The Bill provides the opportunity for officers of insurers to go to prison if they do not comply with the Act, the principle of which is that we should not be seen to be distinguishing between the old and the young and the sick and the healthy. It is not that there are no ideas and innovation that we could bring to the market that could contribute, but that the way the Bill is drafted, it would be an adventurous individual who would enter into that space.

I echo Mr. Armstrong's comments on accelerated payments. We have agreed to accelerate payments to help fund the budget gap. We have been very flexible in responding to that. We are happy to provide support. We are paying the claims. As soon as the claim is in and it is validated, the money is coming out of our bank account and helping to fund the budget gap. I am not really sure, certainly from an Aviva perspective, where that sits.

Mr. John Armstrong

Most of my comments will refer to the universal health insurance issues raised, in particular, by Senator Crown and Deputy Kelleher. We have made a more substantive submission on universal health insurance which, given the time, we did not get time to talk through but if any of the members of the committee want-----

We might come back to the matter as a stand-alone item in the new year.

Mr. John Armstrong

We would be happy to respond to any queries members have on it in the short term.

On objectives, quality is a key issue in my mind, as well as equity and efficiency that Senator Crown mentioned. Everything in the system should be structured to encourage that as an objective. That brings in issues of competition, package design, etc. The risk equalisation system can be done to encourage quality. The German system encourages insurers to provide disease management programmes. That will attract younger people into the system. It is something that can be done.

One of the issues we raise in our submission is our capacity as a country to introduce UHI. I have worked in many different countries on UHI projects and all the countries tend to be significantly larger than our country. It is a challenge that, because of our size, there will be much change within the hospital system and within the public policy area.

Those issues will need to be addressed in some way. It is very important to get some international expertise and collaboration in that regard.

I agree there will be at least a significant change in the way the cost cake will be split between various groups in society and it is something we need to particularly watch out for in the introduction of UHI. That can be addressed in some of the policy decisions that need to be made in terms of tapering levels of subsidies. In terms of whom the State pays for, it should not be a "Yes" or "No" but should be tapered in some way based on one's income levels, etc. There are mechanisms that can be introduced to address those.

Deputy Naughten asked about the public hospital issue. Obviously there are some ways to do it. It is a very significant part of our budget system. Procurement is regularly mentioned as an area that can be done obviously. When the UHI system is introduced we will have to find ways of integrating the public and private systems in some way, which will be a big challenge as will be developing competition between the two parts of the system. Management of costs within the public system will be key to that. It will make it quite difficult to-----

What will happen in the interim?

Mr. John Armstrong

In the interim it is no different from any other organisation. We need to try to understand the sources of the costs. Procurement is clearly one. Obviously we have large staffing issues in terms of doing that and they have been addressed separately. They are issues beyond our health insurance market - the Croke Park agreement, etc. It is quite difficult to manage. Something fundamentally will change.

The incentives will change significantly when UHI comes because the funding stream will shift to insurers rather than directly to hospitals, in some senses, and the public system. That is a potential conduit for many changes. Potentially it will change profoundly the way work is done. Insurers may then have a responsibility to deliver a quality service to their members.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

Many of the queries have been answered. Deputy Kelleher asked about incentivising younger and healthier people to stay in the market. We agree there is a dilemma for sure. However, with regards age at entry and lifetime community rating, if that were brought in today, it would have a significant impact in encouraging young people to stay in the market. The removal of the levy from children would be similar. There is also the impact of the levy itself. Those are three significant items that would make a difference.

What would be the impact on what is coming into the Exchequer?

Mr. Dónal Clancy

I do not believe there would be one. I believe the market would equalise. More younger and healthier people coming into the market would reduce the cost of insurance overall because the risk is spread across a broader base. People who are younger then support the older and as they get older are supported. The key is that they should join younger. If people join later in life it is bad. Unfortunately a significant number of our consumers under 50 are leaving the market. If one looks at the lapsers, the number of those leaving the market is significantly higher than the overall profile of the entire market.

If universal health insurance is coming in, what incentive is there for a 35 year old who is getting married and has a few children? Such a person would want to be out of his or her mind to take out private health insurance if universal health insurance is coming down the road in two or three years time, regardless of community rating.

I ask Mr. Clancy to continue. I will call Deputy Kelleher again later.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

This is the dilemma. It may take four, five or even ten years, depending on the timescale. Today the chairman of the HIA said that in his experience the length of time to get UHI to market is considerably longer than the current forecast. In the meantime we can do nothing about it or we can incentivise the young and healthier to join. In my view, as a consumer it is in everybody's interest to join a community rated market. I accept that if it was to come in tomorrow or in the short term it would have a different perspective, but I think it will be in the longer-term future.

Mr. Muiry will address the UHI question separately. I will pick up on some other issues. We were asked numerous times about the committee. We highlighted it to the Minister and got responses along the lines that the universal health insurance committee was a rolling committee and that at an appropriate time we would be asked to join it. We are just wondering when that appropriate time is.

Are you not part of the consultative forum? Has there not been engagement between the UHI group and that forum?

Mr. Dónal Clancy

The only presentation we got on the UHI was last Friday by officials from the Department of Health. It was a very informative but short presentation. That was our first engagement on universal health insurance. We expect a White Paper will be produced, etc. However, we believe that as a market, we should be represented on the universal health insurance work group.

Senator Crown asked about particular drugs that are coming into the market. We have a standard procedure for assessing all medical technologies for efficacy, etc. That goes through a medical advice panel and we take their advice. People far better qualified than I am make that decision. On the point about market efficiency, I believe there is an efficiency question. As Mr. O'Dwyer said earlier, some 80% of the market is set by the VHI and that definitely influences across the board. However, on the particular efficacy and adaption point mentioned by Senator Crown, that would definitely go before a medical advice panel and that would be it.

On the €120 million, there is no quid pro quo in my view. There was a suggestion that the price increase had some quid pro quo. There is no relationship because what is referred to as €125 million - if I can say that - relates to a payment given for us to support the current dilemma the Government is in and there is no relationship on that.

On the claims lag time, the time it takes to get a bill from a public hospital is on average above 90 days while a private hospital is around 30 days. Without a doubt they are treated the same once they get in the door. The problem is getting them in the door.

Roscommon hospital was mentioned. UHI is not defined and Mr. Muiry can pick up on that. However, we would like to be in a position to ensure that our members are treated in the most appropriate setting. We believe that places such as Roscommon hospital would be appropriate settings for certain procedures and obviously in other cases where they are not centres of excellence they would not be appropriate. However, UHI will dictate how that will work.

Mr. David Muiry

I wish to respond to Deputy Kelleher's questions on the costs under UHI and the cost drivers. Clearly many factors will drive the costs under such a regime, but foremost of those would be the scope of benefits, which is ultimately a policy decision as to what would be covered under such a standard package. Senator Crown mentioned the good example of high cost pharmaceuticals, which is, again, a policy decision. Should such novel treatments be part of the standard package, in which case it would have an effect in driving up costs in the system as a whole? The ability of insurers to negotiate with providers and the effectiveness with which they can do that will serve to contain costs. In addition, the provision for insurers to write supplementary health insurance benefits in addition to a standard package serves to bring down the costs of operating such a UHI regime and in my view should be encouraged.

There is a very important point regarding the basis of risk equalisation for health status, which raises itself within the provisions of the draft health insurance amendment Bill. Currently that is framed in such a way that equalisation will take place on the basis of health utilisation rather than health risk. In other words it is effectively an after-the-fact health measure depending on the experience of the membership of particular insurers. In principle that serves to discourage active management of health claims in the most efficient way, which ultimately has the effect of reducing costs within the system.

We strongly advocate that, at the earliest opportunity, such an implementation of health status-based risk equalisation adjustment be based on risk and not utilisation. In other words, it should reflect the risk characteristics of the membership of the particular insurers, not the number of days they spend in hospital.

A vibrant, competitive insurance market will deliver UHI in the most efficient manner. As has been reflected in different comments, anything we can do in this interim period to ensure we have a vibrant commercial health insurance market will serve to make that transition simpler.

I will return to a point I raised earlier about competition among health care providers as opposed to health care insurers. If one restricts the number of health care providers, one will automatically keep up the level of costs they can charge. I make no apologies for filing a complaint with the Competition Authority on this matter because I certainly thought the case was anti-competitive. The number of available private beds in a particular area was being restricted because of a decision by the insurers. The issue of day care procedures is constantly changing and I am not sure if insurers are reacting fast enough. I know of procedures where insurance cover will be provided if the person is admitted to hospital but will not be provided for the medical practitioner if it is done as a day care procedure. That needs to be constantly reviewed because it seems to change at a very fast rate but I am not sure if insurers are responding quickly enough.

I am not sure how insurers are approaching the admission of a patient with private insurance into a public hospital. Consultants are being asked to sign forms but at what stage is the person treated as a private patient? Is it when he or she is admitted or must the consultant sign off on the patient before he or she is treated as a private patient? For example, what happens if a senior registrar, as is often the case, carries out a very simple procedure and the person is admitted to the hospital for a day or two? In these cases, the consultant is quite happy to have the senior registrar look after that patient but the question is whether the HSE bills the insurance company and then asks the consultant to make out the bills when in fact the patient has not come in under the care of the consultant.

I will come back but I want to bring in Deputies Conway and Byrne.

I thank the delegations for their contributions. I know that many members of the delegation were in the Visitors Gallery when I first spoke about the figures with which this committee, the Committee of Public Accounts and I have been furnished by the HSE. We seem to be at a crossroads and have been told by the VHI, Aviva Health Insurance and Laya Healthcare that there is no problem with payout. I will read out the information we have. We must address this issue because it is a substantial one for the public purse.

At the end of September 2012, €204 million was due to the HSE from private health insurance in respect of treatment provided to private patients. Of the €204 million, €100 million relates to claims under preparation in hospitals. This issue has been raised with consultants in terms of their failure to complete paperwork for whatever reason. This is one of the areas in the ongoing Labour Relations Commission hearings where it has been outlined that consultants need to pull up their socks. A total of €104 million is outstanding relating to claims submitted to insurers which are either pending or being processed and this is the crux of the matter. We have heard from the VHI that there is a 48 hour turnaround. We have not heard from GloHealth in respect of the payouts there. Laya Healthcare has told us that it has made the difference - and this is something of which I have experience - in terms of private hospitals being able to do their business much more efficiently in getting the bills out in the 30 day period versus a 90 day period. We need further clarification on that because €104 million is swishing around somewhere in the system and we would like to know where it is.

The HSE also told me that it has awarded a contract to roll out an electronic claims management in 11 HSE sites to replace the current paper-based system. This is very timely. The new system is currently operational in six sites and is expected to be operational in a further three by mid-November. From the delegation's dealings with the six sites that are operating the electronic method of payment, is it increasing efficiency and are we bringing down that 90 day period to a much more manageable timeframe?

I agree with everything said by Deputy Conway about the money owed to the HSE. It is wrong that people in the private health insurance sector who take in a huge amount of money and use public health services that are needed more by people who do not have health insurance can leave hospitals and the HSE in particular with such heavy outstanding bills. This should be rectified. People working in the private health insurance business are usually paid huge sums of money and they should get their act together, get the pen out and start filling out the cheques for the HSE.

I know the index also covers Aviva Health Insurance, Laya Healthcare and the VHI. The Aviva Health Insurance presentation shows that in 2011, there were 494,931 people in the category marked "17 and under". There has been a drop of 127,000 in the category relating to people between the ages of 18 and 29 since 2011. Once people are over 17 years, their premium doubles and probably reaches €600 or €700. I understand some of these people may not be in the country because of the age bracket and because people may have gone away. Part of the problem is that when people reach 18 and go into the next bracket, the cost takes them out of it. Part of this cost has to do with the fact that many people aged 18 and upwards, particularly those aged up to 23 or 24, are still in college and do not have earnings. The people who are keeping them are the parents, many of whom are not working. The health insurance sector should look at raising the age level and not putting students in an adult age bracket even though they are adult-aged.

On Sunday, I attended the accident and emergency department at my local hospital as my daughter fell and sprained her ankle very badly. It cost me €100 compared with the €255 quoted by the VHI clinic I rang. I was quoted €95 for what was basically an X-ray. I do not think any private health insurance company can justify charging €95 for an X-ray on a teenager's foot. It is appalling.

Does Mr. O'Dwyer wish to reply?

Mr. John O'Dwyer

We might share some of the questions between us. I will deal with the questions regarding our claims and the money that is in the system. We agree with Mr. Clancy that public hospitals' submission is much slower. I do not have the exact figures to hand but it might be four or five months. It is longer than the figure quoted by Mr. Clancy. The figure for private hospitals is around 30 days. However, I am reliably informed that hospitals that have introduced the new process have improved. It is worth noting that we as insurers, particularly Laya Healthcare, Aviva Health Insurance and ourselves, have used an electronic claiming mechanism over the past year or year and a half. We are very keen to make this as efficient as possible and are piloting with a few private hospitals.

It is our interests that we know when the amounts are due for many planning reasons and we want to handle claims as smoothly and as best we can. The industry is keen to make absolutely sure it happens. For public hospitals the time is closer to six months.

Mr. Declan Moran

It can be. The average submission time in many public hospitals is 180 days and we are aware of three or four of these hospitals which have introduced a new system. They have not quite halved their submission times but they have certainly taken one third off them. There is no doubt a quicker process will get it in faster. Our turnaround does not depend on whether claims are from a public or private hospital, we just pay it when it is valid.

Is €104 million outstanding not an extraordinary amount of money irrespective of the time? It is money due to the State. What will an ordinary person at home who has paid his or her insurance premium say when he or she reads in the newspapers that €104 million is outstanding from the four private health insurers?

Mr. John O'Dwyer

I will try to handle this question. When we receive a valid claim we pay it.

I do not want to pick a fight, but are we saying the entire reason the €104 million is outstanding is due to the inefficiency of hospitals?

Mr. Dónal Clancy

Not in its entirety. The only reason I would hold up-----

The information I have been given is that the totality outstanding is €204 million.

Yes, but it is €104 million-----

The HSE is holding up its hands with regard to €100 million, saying it is because of incomplete paperwork.

This is something we have put to the Secretary General at the Department of Health and the CEO designate of the HSE, Mr. O'Brien, and plans are in train. What about the €104 million? Are the witnesses also stating this is about inefficiency in the public sector?

Mr. Dónal Clancy

There is no doubt a substantial part of it is about inefficiencies and exactly what we spoke about here. If we do not receive a bill we cannot pay it and if we did we would be before the committee justifying why we paid without a bill. However, I am interested in knowing about a section of the €100 million, which is the amount with regard to claims that are in the process. Are claims for the public system which are being processed at the time included in the €104 million? I suspect they are.

A total of €60 million of the related age claims are outstanding for more than 30 days.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

Now it is €60 million, which is a different figure. The €100 million has been reduced to €60 million. I suspect we are speaking about the level of time it takes and the inefficiencies of getting them in. This is more credible from the market point of view. We have a current processing amount, if I can put it that way. When claims reach insurers we have a service level to which we adhere and which has been agreed with the market. A second element of this is not receiving claims.

To go back, lest the witnesses think the committee is pinning it on them, I fully subscribe to what Mr. Clancy just said. Consultants dilly-dally about doing the proper paperwork to the tune of €73 million. I still ask whether the four witnesses are telling us they do not store bills to play for time.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

The answer is 100% no.

Mr. John O'Dwyer

Let us be absolutely clear that we pay 80% of claims. I state categorically there is absolutely none of what I think the Chairman is saying. Absolutely none.

So that we can come back at our quarterly meeting in November the point is-----

In fairness to the insurance companies and for clarification, in many cases there is no proper structure in the HSE. I will give a simple example. The Chairman spoke about consultants signing off. In some hospitals staff refuse to pull files for people to sign off on them. There are no proper procedures in place. This has not just happened this year and last year. It has been going on for quite a long time and goes back to the structures in the hospital. The private sector does not have the same problem.

I am not laying the blame anywhere. I want to see efficiencies whereby money is paid to the State so we can see the money coming to the health budget rather than lying somewhere in a vacuum. This is the point I am trying to make.

Mr. John O'Dwyer

There is total transparency in how we deal with this.

Some hospital managers have a different viewpoint.

Mr. John O'Dwyer

I would like to meet them.

I am glad we have had this discussion.

Mr. David Muiry

I wish to make a minor arithmetical point. We should remember the scale of the total volume of claims in the system. I do not have the exact numbers, but the value of claims paid in a working day by the insurers here is approximately €10 million, which means an amount of €100 million is equivalent to approximately ten working days of processing time. There will always be a double digit million number in the system of the most efficient insurers.

In the interest of balance I should put on record that the Department and the three private insurance companies, excluding the one which is new to the market, have agreed a process for 2012 which benefits the State to the tune of €125 million. I should make this clear to be fair to the insurers. However, to ordinary people the amount of money which remains uncollected sounds huge. They see their premiums increase and money being removed from the health budget while €100 million, which is no small change, lies out there uncollected. This is the point we are making.

Mr. John O'Dwyer

To reply to Deputy Byrne, I am sorry to hear about her daughter and I hope she is a little better.

Mr. John O'Dwyer

All insurers have a student rate and we recognise that people may be in college for a few years.

I thank Mr. O'Dwyer.

Mr. John O'Dwyer

VHI has SwiftCare clinics in Dublin and Cork and they are there for our members and for the greater community. We make very little money on them.

They are expensive.

Mr. John O'Dwyer

I accept that but it is the cost. Adding it all up they break even. Customers have a choice to come to our clinic.

If they have the money.

Mr. John O'Dwyer

I accept that. Senator Burke asked several questions which Dr. Carr will answer.

Dr. Bernadette Carr

Senator Burke asked about competition among providers and certainly VHI is committed to keeping costs affordable. We have heard much today about the fall-off in the market and the decline in the number of people who can afford to take out insurance and we are all concerned about this. As the largest insurer, the commitment to sustaining the market as a whole is fundamental to how VHI operates. Much can be done about cost containment, and one element which is important is a balance in the supply of services in the market.

A big part of this supply comprises hospitals and hospital beds, which are very expensive. We are all familiar with what happened to the hotel market in Ireland where we have a huge oversupply because of a large amount of overbuilding. We would not like to see the same situation apply to private hospitals. We attempt to ensure our members have access to an adequate supply of beds but not an oversupply. As Senator Crown mentioned earlier, if the hospital sector has an oversupply and a hospital is under-utilised it would be very expensive to run and there would be a big incentive for the facility to bring in patients and potentially provide unnecessary treatment. An alternative incentive would be to go to a private insurer and state it does not earn enough money and prices must be increased. Internationally it is accepted that balancing supply of hospital beds is a very important part of managing costs. This is what VHI does. It certainly does not make us popular, but we are not there to support developers or private investors; we are there to manage costs on behalf of our members.

This was the first new facility in Cork in 60 years. I do not understand the logic.

Dr. Bernadette Carr

I know Cork particularly well and it has an excellent supply of private hospital beds. The occupancy rate in the large private hospital was approximately 60% or less.

It did not have enough patients to fill its beds. Adding another 100 beds would be expensive.

Is Dr. Carr saying that there is no need for the extra 100 beds in Cork?

Dr. Bernadette Carr

We carried out an extensive analysis. The existing hospital's level of occupancy was 60%. That there were many unoccupied private beds did not suggest a large demand in the Cork region was going unmet or required another hospital to be built.

The occupancy figures we received were different.

Dr. Bernadette Carr

We can only go on our experience of paying claims and the utilisation of the bed supply. Managing that supply is a critical part of what we do. We do not want our members waiting unnecessarily. People purchase private health insurance to get access. We ensure access to avoid complaints. In our analysis, we also examined waiting times in Cork. We used occupancy figures and surveyed our members on how long they waited. We must manage costs.

Does Deputy Kelleher wish to contribute on that point?

Yes, but I might elaborate.

I would rather if the Deputy did not.

I will try not to.

I will call on the Deputy again at the end of the meeting.

If I put everything together, the Chair might indulge me. I am concerned that those of us around this table have our heads in the sand, insurers and policymakers alike. The majority of people find it difficult to pay their health insurance. The Department of Health, the Minister and others claim that waiting times have been reduced, the special delivery unit, SDU, has achieved efficiencies, etc.

No one has discussed a major issue. If universal health insurance is to be introduced in the coming years and the Government will tell people that they are obliged to take out private health insurance based on their ability to pay, what incentive is there for a young person to take out private health insurance before then? People discuss reducing prices and this and that levy, but the fundamental issue is that the majority of people are finding it difficult to survive and pay basic bills. Health insurance is almost a luxury at this stage. It is becoming more expensive. Due to the policy decision to implement universal health insurance, those who can afford private health insurance will be obligated to do so whereas those who cannot will be subsidised by the State. I assume this is the form that universal health insurance will take.

Briefly, please.

I wish to ask Dr. Carr a question. I was always under the assumption that one would only be in hospital if one was sick, would only get a hip replacement if one required a new hip or would only get a stent if that was necessary. The issue is not a question of ten or 100 beds. One would hardly fill 100 beds with people just for the craic. They must have a reason to be there. Is Dr. Carr suggesting that, if there is a vacant bed, someone will be given a new hip even if it is not necessary, just to fill the bed? Why does demand increase just because there are more beds? I would assume that having three or four competitors would reduce the price of beds, hip replacements, etc., for insurers as well as premium holders.

Dr. Bernadette Carr

Yes.

Three further members wish to contribute.

Dr. Bernadette Carr

This is a useful discussion. Some 70% of a hospital's costs are staff costs. It is not like a hotel, in that a hospital must focus on quality. A hospital cannot get rid of nurses, as even a single patient in a ward still requires care. One of two things can happen. First, more patients who would not otherwise have been treated would be brought to hospital. For example, there is always a level at which a hip replacement can be done. The question is at what stage in someone's arthritis should it be done. Discussing the issue of supply and induced demand is difficult, as one can argue over whether a person needs a hip replacement, but the real question is when does it become necessary.

Second, if no additional patients are brought to hospital, it becomes a large white elephant with unoccupied beds, many nurses, doctors and physiotherapists and expensive machinery that needs to be paid for by-----

What about the insurers' concerns? That is the investors' concern. If a hospital fails it fails. Why should the insurance companies be worried about it?

Dr. Bernadette Carr

One could take that attitude, but the amount of money wasted in building such a facility and offering unsustainable jobs and the number of disappointed people in the locality would suggest that the societal cost of building an unnecessary hospital is not something that we as a country can afford.

We will move on.

Is that a call that the VHI or any insurer should make?

Dr. Bernadette Carr

It is not, for which reason we would support licensing and a system of needs analysis to determine whether a facility should be built. Such a system does not exist in Ireland.

That is a fair point.

Dr. Bernadette Carr

We have been forced into doing that analysis.

An independent needs analysis, health impact assessment, HIA, etc.

Mr. Jim Dowdall

I will be brief. I am conscious of Senator Burke's first question, which was also raised by Deputy Kelleher, namely, competition between providers. One insurer should not be able to determine the supply, whether a new medical facility should open or whether another must close. The members' point is correct, in that medical providers should be able to find ways to innovate and bring value to customers. If customers want to use facilities, they will.

Deputy Conway made a number of points regarding the claims system. If electronic claims processing and so on offer opportunities to achieve efficiencies, they should be welcomed by everyone. We should seek ways to drive efficiencies in the public and private health sectors. GloHealth would welcome opportunities to remove the overheads associated with processing claims from the system. It adds no value for anyone.

I am happy to inform the committee that GloHealth is not sitting on claims that are due to the HSE. We process all claims in the same manner regardless of whether they relate to private or public hospitals. As soon as we have the details, we process claims in single iteration within a short number of days.

Deputy Byrne asked about costs. As my colleague from the VHI clarified, there is a student rate, but the issue should be considered. How do we attract people in the 18 to 29 years age bracket back into the market? Lifetime community rating has been mentioned. We may be able to use models and mechanisms to start making health insurance more affordable so that people can join the market. However, insurers are prohibited by regulation from offering different prices to people over the age of 18 years if they are not students. We cannot do anything for that community in pricing terms.

Mr. Dowdall stated that the insurers provide student rates. Up to what age does it apply and is the difference between adult and student rates €50, €100, €200 or something else?

Mr. Jim Dowdall

Although there are a number of variations, in most cases the student rate is approximately 50% of the adult premium.

At what age does it cease?

Mr. Jim Dowdall

The norm in the market is 21 years of age.

My final point is on innovative benefits. A particular focus of GloHealth has been to find ways to make health insurance more affordable and relevant for younger individuals and families. The market needs more of this level of innovation.

Absolutely.

Ms Alison Burns

I wish to comment on the e-claims project, in which we have happily invested time and money. I echo Mr. O'Dwyer's comments, in that we view it as a great step forward. We are committed to it. We view an e-claim no differently. A claim is a claim is a claim regardless of from where it comes. We have an obligation to honour our contracts and we pay our claims quickly.

We are very fast in paying our claims and it makes no difference to us where they comes from. I reiterate that for the record.

Mr. John Armstrong

The only other issue not addressed was Senator Burke's question regarding day care procedures. We routinely consider what benefits are appropriate for an inpatient or day patient setting, and we routinely move people from inpatient to day settings. Well over 70% of our claims by volume are from day patient settings. On occasion the move may not be quick enough but in general terms we have a process in place to review claims and ensure they are in the appropriate setting.

Does the comment relating to students pertain to all the companies? People are now staying in college for longer because there are no jobs, and there was a comment about bringing young people back to the system. Perhaps the age limit should be increased to 25. There are many young people who are still in college because there are no jobs, and they could be used in filtering a small number of people back into the system for the future.

Mr. John Armstrong

We have a student age, which is currently up to 21.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

The student would pay the same levy as adults. Senator Burke mentioned the addition of facilities. Even if the need exists, we must ensure value for the customer, and the facilities should not be provided at any price or with risk to the rest of the customers. The market must behave as a competitive entity.

Deputy Kelleher had a point about a developer or provider incurring the cost rather than the health insurers.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

I accept that as a reasonable position and agree with it. However, a developer may not see it that way.

Of course. The developer would be the risk taker, buying equipment and hiring staff.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

I agree. Irrespective of supply and demand, that cannot be at any price.

That is fair point.

What is the price? If I were to raise finance, build, fund and staff a hospital, offering a suite of services to an insurer, it should in theory or practice drive down costs for an insurer.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

I agree.

Nobody would be in the hospital unless they should be.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

I agree, if all things were equal.

Some things are more equal than others.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

If the cost of providing the bed night in the hospital is substantially more than where a member would have gone alternatively, even an alternative provider in the locality, there is no logical reason the insurer should pay the difference.

What if a reduced suite of costs is offered?

Mr. Dónal Clancy

I would love that; it would be great.

The basis should not be the number of beds but the cost of the bed and treatments.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

I accept that, but there is a recognition in the market of supplier-induced demand. That is recognised.

Does that relate to consultants and doctors?

It is supplier-induced demand.

Will consultants or others in the health system put a patient into a bed because it is there? This is very important. Consultants have told me that if we go down the route of universal health insurance and hospital groupings, there will be an inducement to give people treatments they do not necessarily need because they will receive funding for it. We should be honest.

That is a discussion for a different day.

It is a critical part of this.

Mr. Dónal Clancy

It is the principle of supplier-induced demand.

It is a key issue.

In medicine is there not an ethical obligation? Dr. Carr would know better than me that there is a code of conduct in medicine. I cannot imagine that people would remove gall bladders for the sake of it.

We should establish what is the issue. The people before us are involved in the business. I attended conferences recently and I heard similar comments about the existence of supplier-induced demand. Some people may be given treatments they may not need or could do without because-----

I do not personally buy that argument. As Deputy Conway noted, I cannot believe a consultant would call my office and say that because I have a certain medical history, I need an operation.

That is what I am led to believe can happen in the industry.

I will allow Mr. Muiry to finish.

Mr. David Muiry

I will respond to Deputy Kelleher's call to arms to think about what we can do to encourage the young and healthy to become a part-----

We must also reduce the price to the consumer. That is a fundamental goal we must all work towards.

Mr. David Muiry

We have raised a couple of options during the course of the morning. The challenge is that as we transition towards a universal health insurance model, we must do so in a way that facilitates a neat transition. There is a particular issue with aged entry and community rating. It is implicit in a universal health insurance model that, essentially, everybody pays the same cost, although it is usual with the State, through contributions in income, for subsidies to be made to those on low incomes, for example. It would not be impossible to construct a system whereby in light of the particular challenge we face over the next few years, we could maintain a commercial insurance regime in a viable state by contemplating some incentives that could operate following the introduction of universal health insurance. That relates to families having medical insurance currently or prospectively prior to the introduction of universal health insurance. That could be time-bound, and with the often quoted regime in Australia the incentives to join early have a ten year life span.

With the group represented here, it would be fairly straightforward to provide some creative options that could achieve both the short-term benefits we are looking for - including a more balanced and sustainable insured population - as well as setting up a neat transition to universal health insurance.

Dr. Bernadette Carr

With regard to supply and demand, it is not like people are dragged into hospital. Instead of having an inexpensive X-ray, a person may have an MRI or CT scan, which would be more expensive. That would not be done if the scanner was not there. Many people with bad hip arthritis would not have had a hip replacement 40 years ago but as it becomes more available, the procedure is done much earlier. If a sporting person has a hip replacement earlier - at 50, for example - the person would remain fitter and there would be a better quality of life. Nevertheless, there is a cost. That is supplier-induced demand.

It is important to facilitate a better quality of life. We are talking about people.

Dr. Bernadette Carr

Absolutely. That is where cost is relevant, as it must be balanced. The more services provided, the higher the cost. It is all about trying to provide what people need. People must get what they need but they must be able to afford to be in the market. This job is never finished or easy and it must keep going.

Mr. Sean Egan

I will largely make the same point. It is not really about getting a gall bladder out but rather an extra night in the hospital or three or four more tests that may not be required. The standard test may be a blood test or X-ray, but there may be seven tests done on a patient.

The Minister is trying to get consultants to the table to deal with day case procedures and hospital groupings. I take the point.

Mr. Sean Egan

There is more of that than one may imagine. Examining our bills, it seems that this is how the issue developed.

Perhaps we should bring in the consultants next.

This is a non-binding process.

Ms Alison Burns

This has been a most interesting discussion and we are grateful for the opportunity to talk and share our thoughts.

If one thinks about the volume noise of the communication and conversation we had today, it is about the fact that unless we do something different, the market will end up in terminal decline. That would not serve the poor, hard-pressed families in Roscommon or-----

The market is contracting, while the cost to the consumer is increasing.

Ms Alison Burns

We will have an opportunity tomorrow to work further with the Department of Health in providing feedback on the new health Bill which we received last week. We should be under no illusions. The Bill, as drafted, will exacerbate what is happening in the market.

It is also important that we be cautious about raising prices in the market.

Ms Alison Burns

Yes. If we have the opportunity, we can be creative and design products for younger and healthier people to get them engaged and interested. We must be in a position to be able to do so.

On that note, I thank the delegates for attending. I thank them for their engagement and hope they have found the experience positive. From the perspective of members, it has been enlightening. As a consequence, we hope to see a reduction in premiums. Policyholders of health insurance companies, as I hope all committee members are, want to see bills reducing rather than increasing. I thank the delegates for giving us plenty of information and engaging in a thought-provoking exchange. For those members who wish to attend, we are meeting in the main hall at 1.30 p.m. for a photograph.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.10 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 8 November 2012.
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