Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage díospóireacht

Urban Regeneration: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

I welcome everybody to the committee. Today is our third in a series of meetings we are holding on urban renewal and urban regeneration and how to bring some life, living and economic vibrancy back to our urban and rural towns and our villages.

Today we are joined by Technological University, TU, Dublin. I am delighted to welcome Mr. Odran Reid and Ms Helen Murray O'Connor from TU Dublin, who will talk about some of the spatial planning aspects and the data and information we require in terms of our spatial analysis of our land, properties and buildings, as well as the planning aspect of it. I thank both Mr. Reid and Ms Murray O'Connor for their written submission.

We are also joined by Ms Giulia Vallone, senior architect and county architect, from Cork County Council. I thank her for a very detailed and lengthy written submission she sent into us in which she raised some very interesting aspects about how we can best utilise public realm space because it is not just about full occupancy or full residential use of a town. There are always other bits and pieces that make it a nice place to live and get around in.

We are also joined by Mr. Mel Reynolds, an architect who has done much study and work, much of which I have read, on vacancy and on the difficulties in bringing vacant and derelict spaces back into use, and some of those regulation and process difficulties. I thank him for his submission as well.

We are also joined by Ms Maria Graham, Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan and Mr. Paul Hogan from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. We will look at some of the objectives in Housing for All around Croí Cónaithe and urban renewal and urban regeneration generally.

I thank everyone for their attendance and assisting us today. The committee intends to compile a report from this with recommendations on a number of areas we could look at, consider and promote to encourage what we would like to try to do.

I will read a short note on privilege. Members are reminded of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings. Members attending in the meeting room or remotely from within the Leinster House complex are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they will have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting.

For witnesses attending remotely, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege. As such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a person who is physically present within the Leinster House complex. Members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The opening statements that have been submitted to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting.

I note to members that we have quite a few expert witnesses with us today, so I ask them to direct their questions to a particular witness. If any of the witnesses wish to come in on a question, I ask them to raise their hand and I can bring them in. We will do seven-minute slots initially and then, if we have time at the end, we will go into a third round of questions.

I will first turn to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I invite Ms Graham to make the opening statement on behalf of the Department.

Ms Maria Graham

I thank the committee for the invitation to speak today. As the Chair mentioned, I am joined by Mr. Paul Hogan, principal planning adviser, and Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan, who deals with vacancy, among other things, in the Department.

In the interests of time, I will highlight some of the things from the opening statement that members have. As the Chair mentioned, I will focus on Housing for All, which recognises that at a time of such high housing need, we need to ensure the houses we already have are being fully used. A specific pathway outlines actions to tackle the blight of vacancy and dereliction, which is a feature of many of our towns and villages. The imminent launch of the Government's town centre policy will set a framework for local authorities to work in partnership with local stakeholders to tackle many of the issues that affect not only the choices of tenure and the supply of housing in towns, but also the wider economic and social progress.

I will address some issues in the statement around funding, regulation and enabling actions, and we have separately provided a note on data issues, because there is a very real need for location-specific data that allow for action plans to be developed that are specific to the local need and informed by best practice. That is why we are focused on improving the data and research on vacancy, including through the harvesting of information from local property tax returns.

Turning to funding, it would appear there are two types of areas of vacancy and dereliction that need addressing. There are urban areas of some scale that require significant regeneration, reimagining and repurposing to meet the housing and other needs of the areas. There are also individual properties that are suitable for redevelopment for residential use. In terms of broader regeneration, significant funding has been made available through the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, and the rural regeneration and development fund, RRDF, and town and village renewal schemes.

Through the URDF almost €1.3 billion has been allocated to regeneration projects in cities and €323 million has been allocated to projects in towns, in addition to the rural funding of €255 million. Housing for All and the national development plan reflect the proposed separation of the URDF into streams for cities and towns in the future, and to the inclusion of specific criteria on tackling vacancy. This is part of a wider objective of supporting integrated urban development on brownfield sites in line with the national planning framework. In support of the town centre first policy, a further URDF call for projects for towns is planned for later this year. That will follow on from the fourth call for RRDF projects which is currently under way through the Department of Rural and Community Development.

In other areas where significant regeneration is not required, the refurbishment of property for residential use can enhance the vibrancy of towns and provide new and broader housing choices. It can provide private housing in towns at affordable levels where there are currently few options, and it can provide new options for people with specific housing needs who also would benefit from proximity to other community and social services. A substantially increased housing budget is available for social and affordable housing. The Department is very open to considering options to refurbish buildings to meet these needs as part of those programmes. In addition, Housing for All reflects a number of specific options such as the new Croí Cónaithe towns fund, which the Deputy mentioned and which is focused on sites and the refurbishment of sites and vacant properties in towns; programmes for the compulsory purchase of appropriate property and reuse of public buildings; measures to unlock potential of heritage buildings to meet housing need; a new urban scheme under the European regional development fund that is being progressed to target vacancy and dereliction issues; and the use of the better energy homes grant to support the retrofit of vacant properties. We will host a workshop for vacant homes officers later this week, which will assist us in finalising the terms and conditions of the Croí Cónaithe and compulsory purchase programmes.

Housing for All also recognises the need for some regulatory change to increase the flow of vacant properties to the market. This includes the reform of the fair deal scheme and the extension of planning exemptions to 2025 to complement the town centre first objectives. The latter regulations will be presented to the committee shortly for consideration. The Department is also engaging with local authorities to see if improvements can be made to the Derelict Sites Act, while the Law Reform Commission, LRC, is considering the compulsory purchase legislation.

While the provision of funding and clarity of regulation is important in tackling vacancy, there are challenges. It is often riskier, involving more time and sometimes greater cost, to refurbish than to build a new property. However, the costs of dereliction and vacancy in our cities, towns and villages are very high in societal terms.

There is an important role for these projects to provide vision for towns, support pathfinder projects and provide encouragement and a one-stop shop approach to guide people through the development process. In 2018 we issued our Bringing Back Homes manual to try to help people in bringing properties back into use. Housing for All commits to vacant homes officers becoming full time and we issued a circular on that earlier this week. Advisory support will be provided by the Housing Agency for some of the programmes. Further supports will be given to local authorities as part of the town centre first approach.

In conclusion, the Department is firmly committed to tackling vacancy and dereliction as part of Housing for All. This sits within the context of the overall national planning framework, which highlights the need for substantial levels of housing to come from the developments in the existing built-up areas of our towns and cities. We are happy to answer any questions that the committee may have.

Chairman

I thank Ms Graham and appreciate her sticking to the five minutes. I invite Ms Vallone to make her opening statement.

Ms Giulia Vallone

I would like to open with a quote from Italian-born architect, Richard Rogers, who sadly passed away recently having contributed enormously to urbanism of cities like London and Paris: "Politics and public space are densely intertwined - both are about our public life, our relationships with our fellow citizens, how we live together." I am grateful to the committee for inviting me here to express my views from 20 years' experience working in Ireland as a civic architect in Dublin City Council and Cork County Council.

Public space design is my expertise but its contribution to how people develop pride of place through an inclusive design process and how such community pride can regenerate a town's economy is the focus of my contribution. The statement is structured across six points and concludes with a case study of the Clonakilty 400 master plan, which is a project completed over a ten-year period and can be seen as a live laboratory in measuring success of public realm and collaboration at urban regeneration at a town-scale level. Clonakilty has been well illustrated in the submission to the committee and detailed information is also available through the various national and European awards the project has won.

The first point is to change the market by changing the ideal. How do we bring people to live in a town centre? Being able to reach services and facilities within 15 minutes' walking, including bumping into a friend, visiting one's granny on the way or sitting out under a tree on a sunny day is the magnet for people inhabiting traditional towns all over Europe. However, the value of this sustainable way of life is not highlighted or made desirable to first-time buyers in the housing market. The solution is that people need people. People are attracted to people-friendly places. The distinctive qualities of a town centre can prevail over the isolation of living in suburban sprawl if the public space they share is of the highest quality. Providing civic living room spaces to all ages and backgrounds for people to meet and to linger longer. A vibrant, functioning town centre for local communities is the most authentic, attractive experience for visitors, therefore, creating a destination that will reinforce the economic layer of tourism. Fáilte Ireland has an excellent design guidelines document on this topic.

The second point is how we make desirable the view of public life over a private garden. With density comes resilience. As in the rest of EU, in my town in Italy, living above the shop, having a high floor-to-ceiling apartment with a window framing the view of a church dome is the most desirable location to live with the highest economic, social and cultural value. My grandfather was an olive oil producer. He used his Vespa every day to commute to his farm and return to his town centre where, on a Sunday, he would dress elegantly and walk in the street to meet his friends. In contrast, the ideal in Ireland of living in the countryside has supported the spread of low density suburban and ribbon development which has many negative effects, including the hollowing out of town centres, a dependency on cars, isolation and mental health issues.

On the car society and urban design, we must change the paradigm. The heritage streets of our towns are slowly being turned from streets into roads through the implementation of road engineering design standards to serve the motorists. Irish towns have been brutalised by car-focused design, with a negative impact on public life and architectural fabric. The legacy of new road infrastructures has also brought the conflicting and anti-urban trends of out-of-town retail and those fuel station plazas that continue to compete against town and village centres. Action needs to be taken to create public lands with pedestrian priority forming safe, inclusive and socio-economically successful streetscapes. Since its publication in 2013, a new design manual for urban roads and streets in the hands of a skilled designer is a game changer for town centres, if implemented successfully by a multidisciplinary team.

On new opportunities through European supports, the new European Bauhaus initiative with the green deal were formed to lead the cultural change in climate change action and helping to develop better functioning cities and towns around Europe. Clonakilty 400 was selected as one of 33 European case studies to illustrate the key recommendations. Worthy of research is the Italian Government's recent granting of incentives for structural and energy upgrading of existing fabric across Italian urban areas, providing up to 110% funding. Since its introduction in 2020, it has been a game changer for the Italian economy while also facilitating the conservation and rehabilitation of urban centres and buildings.

My next point concerns urban design through public engagement. Project Ireland 2040, with the national planning framework plan, has placed a focus on the revitalisation of Irish towns, and the recent Housing for All has heralded the town centre first initiative, which is a very welcome one in the programme for Government. Invited as a panellist to the launch of Our Rural Future: Rural Development Policy 2021-2025, I recognised investment in rural Ireland as a very significant opportunity for rural towns, villages and communities in Ireland to provide transient and flexible workspaces. However, the implementation of this policy must not be done in isolation without public engagement. Only through meaningful and continuous public engagement can a strong sense of ownership of projects within the community be created that can lead to long-term success and pride of place across generations.

My final point refers to the implementation of ideas and the role of civic architects. Westport 2000 and Clonakilty 400 are well-known successful examples of town regeneration and it is no coincidence these projects shared the same implementation structure of being led by a town architect. Why was this? Architects have a solid track record in interrogating the quality of the building environment and they are therefore well equipped to use their knowledge, experience and capacity to spark discussion about the quality goals of the environment. As architects in councils, we are perfectly placed to co-ordinate the mostly disparate developments such as road, flood relief etc. to aesthetically pleasing outcomes. During the town council era, town architect planning clinics were also provided in all Cork county towns. These were a unique example of public engagement processes where the civil servant architects assisted the private sector design process through informal over-the-counter architectural and planning advice. This co-ordination process between the private and public sectors delivered sustainable outcomes in urban development.

I acted as a town architect for a number of towns in Cork county for ten years prior to the restructuring of the post with the abolition of town councils in 2014. This role was effective and consideration should be given to municipal architects as problem solving, where, working with town planners and local engineers, they are uniquely positioned to engage, harness and promote civic input. Community architects can act as the standard bearer of the town’s built environment in preserving the local architectural character through quality design, public participation and place making, promoting-----

Chairman

My apologies to Ms Vallone but I must interrupt her as we have gone over time.

Ms Giulia Vallone

It is finished.

Chairman

However, I did want to allow Ms Vallone to get onto that section about the importance of county and town architects because I firmly believe and agree with that and in what they can bring to the overall process. I apologise again for interrupting her but we have to try to keep to time.

I invite Mr. Reynolds to make his opening statement.

Mr. Mel Reynolds

I thank the Chairman and I appreciate the invitation to present to the committee. I will look briefly at the scale of demand and supply, particularly in the new-build sector. Then I will look at existing land and building capacity for existing structures and the opportunities that are there. I will then look at some of the barriers and the opportunities we have to remove these, which I will address at the end of the presentation.

On overall new housing output, we know that new-builds have increased from approximately 17,500 new homes in 2017 to 20,500 in 2020, which is a very welcome development. The interesting thing is that when this supply is broken down into where it is going, we can see that the number of houses that have been available to households has remained pretty much flat in four years. For example last year, of the 20,532 new homes built, nearly 5,000 were one-off homes which would never make it to the market, while the State and approved housing bodies purchased 4,715 from private developers and schemes. They also built some in some areas. Private non-households were also very active, with almost 3,500 new dwellings which were built or purchased.

We know then that the total figure for household purchases last year was around 7,425, which is slightly less than the number purchased in 2017. Remarkably, in Dublin, the figure for new houses aimed at households has actually gone down. We know that in the region of 28% fewer households purchased new homes last year in the four Dublin local authorities than in 2017, with a total of approximately 2,286 dwellings. That is despite the fact the new homes output has gone up only by 8% in four years. We have seen displacement by non-household entities in the new homes market.

In the social housing sector, we know Rebuilding Ireland was launched in 2017 and was meant to build 50,000 homes. Four years later we have seen 5,335 new homes built by local authorities and approved housing bodies and around 10,000 turnkey purchases. For every single home built by local authorities and approved housing bodies, two were purchased from the private sector.

The most absolute metric for additional homes to local authority stock is that there are no accurate figures. We know that in four years, fewer than 10,000 additional homes from all sources were brought into stock for all of the local authorities, and that is an average of 659 in County Dublin for the four local authorities. That contrasts quite markedly with the demand figure of around 120,000 households on the primary and secondary housing waiting lists. That is a fairly big gap between supply and demand.

On land availability, we know that the land aggregation scheme in 2015 noted there was about enough zoned land for about 414,000 dwellings which were serviced and 600,000 which were in tier 2. In 2017, the Rebuilding Ireland Land Map noted that there was enough public land for about 50,000 houses. In actual fact, the figure was a great deal higher.

By 2020, looking at Dublin City Council, the capacity on its land was that it had approximately 85 ha left, excluding the Oscar Traynor Road and the O'Devaney Gardens sites, which are the subject, I believe, of votes today. We also know that, remarkably, that the National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, disposed of just 7 ha in four years. It has approximately 97 ha of land that is controlled and owned by their debtors. Therefore, the combined land bank in the four Dublin local authorities in County Dublin is 182 ha, which is around 61% of all zoned vacant land, which is a huge number. At O'Devaney Gardens, densities of 200 dwellings per hectare suggests the State controls land with somewhere in the region of a capacity for 36,000 dwellings. This effectively means it controls the land market in Dublin city between the canals.

As to vacant buildings, we know that the most recent census had approximately 183,000 vacant homes. That had reduced by approximately 46,000 from the previous census, so with a reasonable stab at a figure, we would have approximately 137,000 such homes. That suggests around 40,000 existing dwellings are available over and above the normal rate of vacancy that could be brought back into stock relatively quickly.

We know that there have been a number of desktop studies, one of which has been done by UCC, the North Main Street study, and by the Dublin City Council, where it reckoned that, respectively, the capacity in city centre towns could be increased by almost 300% by targeting vacant infill sites and upper floors. We know that in Dublin city, the capacity there was approximately 4,000 dwellings in existing buildings. Critically, the census does not actually tackle or count the number of vacant spaces we have above the shops.

One of the key areas that I have looked at, which I will mention briefly, is our statutory permissions as a barrier to actual refurbishments. Currently, we have planning which is being tackled by a pilot scheme brought in in 2018. There are also disabled access, fire, and building control amendment regulations, BCAR, certificates, which are four separate processes, three of which are pre-commencement. These are extensive, not only in terms of costs, but it takes up to five to six months for even a very simple change-of-use application to get to the point where you can commence work on site. The difficulty is that because there are three different and separate strands, if you do not get one of those permissions, you cannot proceed.

It is not just the cost of it, which is something like ten times the cost of the same statutory permissions in the UK and Northern Ireland, it is the uncertainty of it. You can get planning permission but if you do not get your fire or disabled access certificates, you cannot proceed and vice versa.

One of the proposals we put in back in 2017, with colleagues Orla Hegarty and Lorcan Sirr, was the idea of a streamlined process where you could go into a local authority, there might be three or four separate queues, you bring your drawings in and get them stamped, go through all the various different hoops and you come out the door with a permit.

It is similar to a scheme that has been used in the US for a long time. A streamlined, over-the-counter process such as that would involve no diminution in existing building standards. It would allow us to set up an integrated approach whereby if there are conflicts between a protected structure and the technical requirements for disabled access, for example, they could be looked at behind the counter. A process like this could save in the region of five months out of that six-month application process, and save some 85% or 90% of the cost of a typical change of use application. In one case in my practice the fit-out cost was less than €30,000 for a 35 sq. m ground floor space, and the statutory permissions costs were more than €10,000. This is a very big problem. It is not just about the costs; it is also the uncertainty associated with it.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Reynolds. We will now move on to Technological University Dublin.

Ms Helen Murray O'Connor

I am a senior lecturer and programme chair of the spatial planning programme in TU Dublin. I am speaking to the committee in that capacity. I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for this invitation to attend. My colleague, Mr. Odran Reid, and I will present two related but very different elements. I will take the first aspect and I will then pass over to Mr. Reid. I thank the committee for reading our submission material, and we look forward to the discussion and questions.

I will concentrate on the four main issues with regard to the different functions contained within land management including: the issue of data and associated skill sets; State lands in the context of land management; and the legislative aspects.

My own interests are in land, coastal and marine governance - and obviously I also look at the terrestrial aspect - and the management and administrative functions that are included in the interrelated systems and processes, which are land tenure, land value, land use and land development. In research terms, this is called the land management paradigm. This is a fancy term but in effect is just that those four functions deserve equal attention. This will come into play when I talk about State lands.

Despite an array of commendable policy documents and strategies, and evidence of very good practice across the public sector generally, significant headway in the provision of housing has generally been slow to materialise. It is clear, however, that the issue is not solely about the scarcity of land for greenfield development, nor is it just about the complexities of repurposing existing building stock into residential units, or, indeed, about the infrastructure needed to support such development. Rather, it is evident that many facets of this challenge relate to policymakers and decision-makers not having ready access to appropriate, fit-for-purpose data to allow the level of analysis, spatial analysis and the locational intelligence required for the urgent next steps to happen. I have tuned in and listened to previous committee sessions and I am aware that the committee has considered whether we are asking the right questions of such land and property-related policies and plan. However, the more critical question is whether these policies and plans are sufficiently informed by appropriate and accurate, current and complete information.

With regard to the skill sets that are needed, it is very hard to establish a good baseline with respect to skill sets. Certainly, the analysis required is quite tricky in trying to interpret, manipulate and manage very large datasets, multi-criteria site evaluations, public-facing interactive mapping, and needs quantification across local and central government.

With regard to State lands, statutory bodies are obliged under the Registration of Title Act 1964 to register all property acquired since July 1967. Government direction in this regard has been clear and constant over the years. The LDA's mandate is now to activate State lands, and it is imperative that we ensure such public sector assets lands and property are indeed registered.

I will go back to my first point with respect to the land management paradigm. The proposed merger of Ordnance Survey Ireland, the Property Registration Authority of Ireland, and the Valuation Office into Tailte Éireann provides an opportunity for transformative change. I welcome this committee's report of December 2021 on the pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the Tailte Éireann Bill 2020, and in particular the two recommendations that the PSRA would be brought into the merger and that the associated data sets around the property price register would be brought into play. I believe that these recommendations should be fully endorsed and are a welcome insertion and consideration.

I will now hand over to my colleague Mr. Reid, as I am conscious of not taking too much time. I would welcome any questions from members in time.

Chairman

We are almost out of time, but I will let Mr. Reid go ahead with his opening statement.

Mr. Odran Reid

I will be brief and make just a handful of quick points. I will do a quick edit of what I was going to say.

Ireland is used to housing crises, and we have been surviving in one for quite a period. It is always the State that comes in and actually solves problems. Since the State has been somewhat missing from housing production, as Mr. Reynolds also referred to earlier, we have developed a dysfunctional housing market. House price inflation is in the past 30 years has been nothing short of excessive. It is 2.6 times greater than the wage rate increases, and six times the rate of inflation in the past 30 years. When we see this, we must ask why. We are aware there are issues around construction, but the significant price factor is the price of land.

When we looking at the town centre first policy, we look at the development of community and the development of place. Housing is one aspect of this. Where we put the housing is critically important. The committee is currently looking at the living over the shop approach. A number of people have looked at this and they have all run away from it because it has been problematic. It is problematic partly because of regulation and partly because of cost. The value of living over the shop is not necessarily the quantum of development it would bring forward; it is also about what it does to the town centres particularly in rural area Ireland, and in creating a sense of vibrancy in city centres that die after 6 p.m. We also have to look at these buildings because of the volume of embedded carbon in them. It may be more expensive to do this, but we have already put the carbon in and we must also consider this.

There is a major shortage of accommodation, but going back to the issue of price structure, our young people can no longer afford housing, they cannot afford rent, and once this pandemic is over they will vote with their feet. That will be very problematic for our society. We have certainly seen this in rural Ireland when people have left and we have had depopulation. We do not necessarily want to see this again. The title of the Government policy is Housing For All, which is critically important. It must, however, be done with equity and affordability as key elements of the delivery. The late economist, John Kenneth Galbraith, said that sometimes what is called economics is very often what mirrors the need of the respectable affluent. I do not think this is necessarily what we should have as a housing policy. We did a lot of positive things around housing policy and we must continue that.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Reid for sticking to the time. There will be plenty of opportunity for him to elaborate on his opening statement and to answer questions, in particular around quantum and bringing vibrancy and a bit of life to town centres, including an economic benefit.

I will now give members an opportunity to ask questions, with seven minutes allowed in total for each question and answer. I ask them to stick to this time and that they would get straight to the question. In this way we will get through a lot more.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I am here in Leinster House. I thank each of the witnesses for giving us their time today. It is very valuable to us. As an Oireachtas joint committee, we look at housing generally, but today we are talking specifically about the renovation of existing built vacant and-or derelict properties, and we all understand the difference between those. Housing for All identifies vacant properties and the restoration and renovation of them as the most sustainable way to increase housing stock. It is not the only way to do so but it is certainly the most sustainable way.

My questions in this round are directed largely at the Department. I will come back in at a later round if I can. My first question for the Department is about Croí Cónaithe. What are the specific targets for that? Second, we are in a housing crisis, and we have a homelessness crisis and a climate emergency. It is alarming the Department does not have accurate data on the number of vacant built homes that exist in the State. What specific actions is the Department taking to capture that data accurately? Is it relying on the Department of Finance and the local property tax exercise to capture those data? From a Dublin city perspective, it is no mystery. You can walk around any part of the city, and within 15 minutes to a half an hour, you can identify at least a dozen vacant or derelict properties or a combination of both.

I have some questions about the schemes already in place. In a Dublin city context, Dublin City Council has had a vacant homes officer since 2017. It has a one-stop shop. It has actively promoted the living city initiative, which has been in operation since 2015. However, there have only been 59 successful applications. Mr. Reynolds referred to the figure of 4,000 dwellings. Not all of them will fall into the living city initiative. The figure of 59 is, by any standard, paltry. Does the Department not think it has not worked? As it is a tax credit, it requires people who own properties and who are not necessarily cash-rich to spend money in advance to benefit from a tax credit over a seven-year period. It has not worked. Has the Department considered a grant scheme? The Department gives a direct grant for new-build affordable homes. Would it not consider grant funding for the renovation of existing properties that are on streets and in communities where public lighting, sewerage services and public transportation are available?

Through the buy-to-rent scheme, local authorities can buy properties and rent them out for social housing. I do not understand why local authorities are not allowed to count those properties they buy and rent to social housing tenants as part of their social housing targets. Will the Department explain why that is the case? Why would we not change that to incentivise local authorities by allowing them attribute them directly to their social housing targets? Dublin City Council has no target for the repair and lease scheme. I believe this is down to the fact that there is a €60,000 cap on the scheme. Has the Department looked at that and is it considering increasing that amount? The financial cost of repairing a vacant property, particularly an old vacant property, is significant. The economic and social reward of doing it is enormous. It regenerates streets and communities and it adds back to those communities.

From my experience, the compulsory purchase order, CPO, process by a local authority can take ten years to complete, then it starts looking for funding, and there are all of the issues around that. How does the Department propose to accelerate the CPO process and make it more effective? Utilising vacant housing is the most sustainable way for us to increase the housing stock. We need to do all the new builds, but to increase housing stock and regenerate these inner-city communities and rural towns, we need to prioritise this. How will the Department do that under Housing for All?

Chairman

That was almost five minutes of questions so there are only about two minutes left to answer, but we can come back to answer them at the end. Will someone from the Department take the first or possibly the second question?

Ms Maria Graham

I will speed through the answers and the Chair can stop me if he wishes. The first question was about Croí Cónaithe and the targets. We see Croí Cónaithe as a mixture of sites that will be made available in the vicinity of towns and grants to refurbish vacant properties. For all the reasons the Senator has outlined, it is important to refurbish properties in towns. These must be for individuals to refurbish.

We have a target in the pathfinder scheme of 2,000 by 2025, but we will have to consider the take-up and how it progresses. Similarly, there are about 2,500 for the CPO programme to bring properties to the market. They are in tandem with the schemes that are under the social housing programme, working with approved housing bodies to see what they can bring forward. The Senator specifically mentioned the existing schemes such as buy to rent and repair and lease. The repair and lease grant has been increased and these are matters we keep under review. Local authorities have produced delivery action plans that encompass everything they will do in social housing. Under Housing for All, we are looking for action on all fronts, including the expansion of both the repair and lease and buy to let schemes.

The Senator also asked about the CPO process - I am probably skipping over a couple of things. In the programme we have been talking about, bridging finance will be made available by the Housing Finance Agency so that there will be a funding package in place. Work is under way by the Law Reform Commission because, as the Senator said, the legislation is very old and it takes a long time to go through it and, at this stage, it needs to be streamlined to recognise not only private property rights but the public good and the common good. There is a need to streamline and progress it quickly. We are waiting to see what the Law Reform Commission comes up with in that regard, and we are anxious to see this from a housing perspective.

The living city is a taxation measure and a relief that is given by the Minister for Finance. The current scheme expires this year. It is up to the Minister to consider the future direction of that. In terms of Housing for All, we have focused on schemes such as Croí Cónaithe. Money will also come from the URDF and ERDF. We are working with regional assemblies on that to see where the gaps are in terms of dealing with vacancy and dereliction that need to be addressed.

Chairman

I have to interrupt Ms Graham.

Ms Maria Graham

I will respond later on.

Chairman

I have no doubt there will be an opportunity to return to those questions towards the end of the meeting, or others may ask them as well.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I thank Ms Vallone, Mr. Reynolds, Mr. Reid and Ms Murray O'Connor for their presentations. I have no questions regarding them because I broadly agree with the substance of their written presentations and what they have said to us today. Their contributions will certainly help us in our committee report.

I have a number of specific questions for Ms Graham, especially on the Croí Cónaithe programme. I am picking up from where Senator Fitzpatrick left off. It is still completely unclear what Croí Cónaithe is. I have read the Government's housing plan. I have read the initial note for expressions of interest to interested parties. I am looking for specific answers to specific questions. It is not clear if Croí Cónaithe provides a subsidy to a developer, as is the case with the local infrastructure housing activation fund, LIHAF, a grant aid to a buyer, or an equity stake similar to the affordable housing fund, for example. We know it is intended to reduce the purchase price by 20%, which is in the region of €60,000 to €80,000 per property. Has it been decided whether it is one of those three options? If it is an equity stake, how will it be recouped? If it is not an equity stake, will there be any mechanism for recouping the money such as in the affordable housing fund?

Senator John Cummins

It is important that we are placing a focus on this issue. It is an issue that I have been working on in my own area of Waterford for the last number of years. We have been successful in Waterford in tackling the issue of vacancy and dereliction. Ms Vallone mentioned in her contribution the benefits of a public-private collaborative approach to this issue. That is what has worked well in Waterford. The private sector has stepped up to the plate to purchase and renovate units, using schemes such as the repair and lease scheme. The council has used the stick of the compulsory purchase order process, has carried out CPOs, and has heavily focused on the issue of buy and renew. It is a collaborative approach. Anyone who suggests that either the private or the public sector can do it on their own is misleading the public. It is only by having that collaborative approach that we will achieve progress on this.

The repair and lease scheme has been instrumental in Waterford. I have mentioned it several times previously. It is a shame that 22 local authorities have delivered less than five units over the past four years under the repair and lease scheme. Eight local authorities have not delivered a single unit. My county has delivered nearly 50% of all repair and lease units. It has had a tangible impact, with benefits for the streetscape, and it has provided much-needed one- and two-bed accommodation for individuals and families. I have a question for Ms Graham . When will the Department set specific targets for local authorities for the repair and lease scheme? I know there are global figures and targets for leases that were in place, which we are phasing out. The scheme has been proven to be successful. The Department needs to provide ambitious targets for local authorities, otherwise we will not see the progress that we need.

I welcome the focus on the 2,500 CPOs. Let us provide targets for individual local authorities for delivery under CPOs. I appreciate that it can be a complex process and that the Department will underwrite a financial risk for local authorities, which is welcome.

I have a couple of specific questions other than the one that I mentioned. Is it intended that local authorities will be given a specific number of serviced sites under Croí Conaithe? For example, Waterford might have 100 serviced sites as a target, and it is up to the local authority to decide where it is most beneficial to have those serviced sites in villages or towns. How will that be worked out? Will it be done on a bid basis?

Mr. Reid spoke to the issue of living over the shop. There is merit in having a repair and lease type scheme that will deliver units at below market rent, in other words, a cost rental type scheme to deliver units to the market that will compete with the private rental sector at, at least, 20% below market rents. The 20% below market rent provision is already built into the repair and lease scheme. Waterford has been successful in the delivery of social housing units in the city centre. We need to be conscious of the need for mixed tenure development as well. I would ask that consideration be given to such a pilot scheme in Waterford.

Chairman

The Senator's questions are directed to the Department.

Ms Maria Graham

In general terms, the Department is very open to any projects of that nature, social or affordable. Some of them are more significant than an individual property. For example, in Monaghan a full street in Clones has been taken up and refurbished. We are open to looking at such projects. The delivery action plans that are being looked at now will look at the overall delivery in all of the schemes by local authorities. We have issued to vacant homes officers an enhanced programme for full-time offices. We looked at the role of the vacant home officer. Apart from in Dublin, as the Senator mentioned, most of them are part-time staff. We are looking at what areas they should be focused on.

In terms of the various departmental schemes, it talks about the point of active uptake on the social housing capital delivery schemes, including buy and renew and repair and lease, CPO and the Croí Cónaithe. On the Senator's question with regard to the Croí Cónaithe, we are finalising the approach on what will work for local authorities, part of which involves getting the feedback from the vacant homes officers. As mentioned by the Senator, Waterford has been to the fore in availing of all of the available schemes. In the first round, we will be looking for projects that can move quickly and in respect of which the sites are in locations that align with national planning framework objectives. Our sense is they should be able to meet an application for a local authority.

Senator John Cummins

On specific targets for repair and lease, will the Department set a specific target for local authorities? This is an issue I have raised ad nauseam. I do not know why there would be resistance to putting specific targets on local authorities under this scheme. It is the only measure local authorities will respond to. If eight local authorities have not delivered a single unit and 22 have delivered only five or fewer, there is a problem. We need specific and ambitious targets. Will the Department set those targets?

Ms Maria Graham

I do not deal directly with the delivery action plans so I will have to come back to the Senator on whether target setting will be clearly delineated for those schemes.

Senator John Cummins

I am sure it will be a recommendation of the committee. I would ask that, prior to that happening, it be expedited as an action. It is one that can be easily actioned.

Chairman

I have no doubt it will be a recommendation from Senator Cummins as he regularly raises the matter. I would tend to agree with him on it. On the questions that are asked, which the witnesses do not have time to answer, I ask that they would provide a written response.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I welcome the witnesses and I thank them for the quality of their presentations. To various degrees, they are really comprehensive and they cover a lot of ground. I do not propose to make a speech. I will be asking questions that either I do not know the answer to or I have not learned from the presentations. I want to cover one or two particular areas on which I would like general feedback from all of the witnesses appearing for us today.

I will start with land availability and compulsory purchase orders. I was a councillor for many years before I was elected to the Seanad. Last weekend, I was brought to a building in Enniskerry village which was the subject of an application by the HSE, possibly three or four years ago. It is a derelict period property in the village of Enniskerry that one could not buy for €2 million. It is a stunning building which one passes on the way to Powerscourt Estate. The planning application notice is still on the gate. I photographed the building from the outside. I also took a photograph of the notice, which I am happy to circulate after the meeting.

For me, this illustrated yet again the large tracts of property, land and buildings that are in the 31 local authority areas. I live in Dún Laoghaire, where there are substantial sites in the ownership of the council that are derelict, one of which I visited this morning. This a major town centre zone that is highly suitable for residential purposes. It is on a transport corridor and close to a harbour with the best amenities on the east coast, if not in the whole of Ireland. It is served by brilliant services. What is going on here in terms of State lands? Land within the ownership of the Defence Forces are underutilised, as are lands and properties in the ownership of the HSE. There are lands in the ownership of the educational authorities that are lying derelict, one of them in Dún Laoghaire and others in Dundrum and north County Dublin. This is very substantial real estate.

Another issue is compulsory purchase orders and the local authorities' failure in that regard. Local authorities tell me they do not have the money, resources or wherewithal. I have a particular interest in this area. I have dealt extensively with Ms Niamh Larkin, director of audit at assistant secretary general level in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, with whom our witnesses will be familiar. This morning, I took the time to review a number of reports. A constantly recurring issue in all of these reports is the property asset register and the failure of city and county managers to comply with a wide range of recommendations. Today, the universities spoke about the requirement for the Land Registry and the registration of properties. We have a serious problem with the registration, administration and management of properties, be they in the health services, the Prison Services, the Defence Forces and so on. Some of the major culprits are the local authorities. I have a list on my desk today in regard to Dublin City Council. I am aware of issues in Wicklow County Council and Galway City and County Council.

How can we focus on and address the issue of derelict lands and substantial properties, some of which are protected structures and present their own challenges? How do we get our State agencies to focus on the substantial properties that can be repurposed in terms of the rejuvenation of our villages and towns, urban and rural, and put to use for residential and other uses, thus revitalising our towns, villages and communities? That is my principal concern. I speak as someone who has done a lot of work in this area but still has a lot of questions focused on a lot of city and county managers. I am more than likely the bane of their lives. They know me and I know them. I continue to chase them. I would like to hear the witnesses' thoughts.

Chairman

Is the question directed to TU Dublin or Ms Vallone?

Senator Victor Boyhan

I would like to hear what the Department has to say because it has a major role in terms of State agencies, but let us hear from TU Dublin.

Ms Helen Murray O'Connor

I am not going to go where I do not know. I respect that others will have opinions with respect to the development of and repurposing of those lands. I will speak to registration, it being the point I made in submission.

With respect to Government policy, it has been consistent, as set out in my submission. With respect to the code of practice for the governance of State bodies, I included that also. It is quite recent, having been introduced in 2016. With respect to Government policy, as I said, it has been consistent and clear. Now that State lands and properties have come centre stage with respect to the crisis in housing, that might shine a lens on the importance of registration of those properties and the requirements of State agencies to do so.

After all, our property register is the definitive register with respect to land and property legal rights. My point in my submission is really with respect to further triggers. If sanctions are necessary that is absolutely something that needs to be addressed.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Perhaps Ms Graham has something to add.

Ms Maria Graham

I thank the Senator. There are a couple of things to mention. One is the specific statutory powers being given to the LDA and the TUD witnesses mentioned that. The Property Registration Authority, PRA, has worked with them on that. It will have to give a formal report to Government on State land banks. That will be really important as one of the mechanisms for highlighting where that land availability is. Part of the work in Housing for All is a whole tranche of more lands for the LDA to bring to fruition and the capacity under the LDA Act for it to work with local authorities on lands.

Another component of that is the residential zoned land tax. Mr. Hogan has been working very closely with the Department of Finance and could give more details on that. Again, that gives the transparency on land that is owned and what it is being used for and taxing it if its not being brought forward. On property, part of the analysis of getting the data from the LPT is with a view to bringing in a vacant property tax. Local authorities will equally be applied. I recognise precisely what the Senator said but this issue has come up in a number of the reports of the auditors on this. We equally realise many lands local authorities have go back for generations so the process of registration can be difficult. I know as part of the social housing programme and the increased 10,000 build per annum, that land availability, what lands local authorities have, what they are going to be used for and how they might form part is a particular aspect the Department and the housing delivery office are looking at. There are a number of strands to dealing with what is a really important issue. If the Senator wants more, Mr. Hogan can come in on the residential zoned.

Chairman

I am sorry. As that has been eight minutes I must move on.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank the Chairman.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

I thank all our witnesses for their briefings as well as their insight. I very much understand the issues currently prohibiting the restoration of our vacant properties, especially in our towns where one third of our population lives. The combined cost of fire, access, protected structure status, insurance and professional fees leave restoration unviable for many of these properties. On this, my first point and question relate to the limited planning exemptions that expired in December of last year. According to the figures presented by Mr. Reynolds, the number of planning exemption notifications in 2020 was almost half the number of Part Vs nationally. It also showed an upward trend in figures, which suggests planning exemptions work and that the fewer barriers placed in the planning application process, the more people will be incentivised to repurpose their vacant units. It is great that there are plans to extend the planning exemptions to 2025 as part of the town centre first initiative.

My first question to the Department is whether consideration been given to simplifying the planning procurement further with one-stop shops to reduce the costs associated with change of use applications. As Mr. Reid and Ms Murray O'Connor said in their statements, it is currently less expensive to leave them vacant as the returns, if any, are not worth the hassle.

My second question relates to the vacant property tax currently being developed. I would be grateful if the Department could update us on the progress of that tax. Has the Department begun collating a sufficient volume of data on vacancy following the recent LPT returns?

Ms Maria Graham

On the exemption regulations, because of the Covid extension they do not now expire until the end of February. We will bring regulations to the committee next month with a view to extending those to 2025 and look at smaller commercial premises such as pubs that are not being included in that. The committee will have a chance to look at that next month. I did not mention our own manual on bringing back homes. It tries to look at the exempt development, disabled access, fire certificates, other elements and what is needed for different houses to bring that together. We see an important part of town centre first and making the vacant homes officers full-time is to enable local authorities to be resourced and have toolkits available to them so they can support people through the process. I mention also that the fire regulations are currently under review. That includes looking in the bit that deals with existing buildings. That should go out for public consultation later this year. Part of our work is to see how we can support and enable the process.

On the vacancy tax, the Department of Finance is looking after the taxation. I understand it is collating the returns and looking at them at this point in time so we do not have any data on that as yet.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

I thank Ms Graham.

Chairman

If I can jump in at the end of Deputy's slot, I have a query for Ms Graham on that point. On working with the Department of Finance on that, taxation is obviously its remit but could she give us an indication of when she thinks we will have that collaboration between both Departments and have that tax in place?

Ms Maria Graham

I understand the Minister for Finance has articulated a commitment to bringing something forward this year. I understand he put that on the record of the House. We would expect that as soon as the Department of Finance has data, it will work very closely with us. We worked intensively with officials last year on the residential zoned land. There was intensive engagement with the Department of Finance and with Revenue to finalise those proposals.

Chairman

I thank Ms Graham.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

Many of my questions have been answered and I do not want to go over what other colleagues have said. I want to try to pull out some more solutions to it. I do not think anybody here can say addressing vacant housing is going to be the panacea for the housing crisis but it is an important toolkit for us in that effort, particularly for bringing our towns and cities back to life. With that in mind, I am quite interested in what Ms Vallone and Mr. Reid talked about. Ms Vallone gave the example of other perspectives from other cities she has worked with and the benefits that accrued. I have questions for her and the departmental officials. We had people from Anois before us talking about dereliction in Cork and giving us examples of what happens in Amsterdam. I ask Ms Vallone to give us some solutions by suggesting two measures the Department could implement that it could reasonably do. What would they be?

I have a very similar question for Mr. Reid because he talked about regulation and costs being issues. Are there any specific regulations he thinks are be easily identifiable and could be changed? Where are the bulk of costs coming from? I think Mr. Reynolds referenced that for a €35,000 refit, approximately €10,000 of that is planning fees. I want to get a sense of whether there is any low-hanging fruit nobody is really noticing or doing anything about.

Turning to the Department, and I may be springing this on the officials somewhat, but have they had any experience of other European neighbours that do not have the same problem with dereliction and that have brought their towns and cities back to life? Amsterdam is a very good example of a decaying urban centre that was very proactively brought back to life. It required people to register vacant housing if it was empty for more than six months. Those are my three questions. If there are other questions that have not been addressed, they can be taken in my time if there is any left over.

Ms Giulia Vallone

I thank the Senator for her question. I will start with the lowest hanging fruit, as she mentioned.

There are some practical opportunities that, being a practitioner, I would suggest. The first is having a vision or plan. In Clonakilty, for example, we had a plan. This would be a catalyst for any opportunity of funding before opportunities come, not only to react to when they come but to be prepared. This vision is strategically important, not only as a catalyst for funding but also to inform and inspire the citizens. We are building, with Cork County Council, a nurturing of stewardship with the community at every opportunity, for instance, in the colour scheme, the Christmas lighting and all of this wealth of activity that brings people to be interested in the town centre.

One important lowest hanging fruit is to stop doing things wrongly and stop the decay before we think too much of what to do. Unfortunately, every day I see shopfronts being abused, neglected or transformed. This is a big deal in our town centres. For example, let us declutter everything before we start buying other things or furnish the town centre. There is much unused street furniture: bollards, inappropriate street lighting and road marking. This is very much a cost-effective opportunity to clean up the town centre. Between having a vision and clean-up is starting to see what the opportunities are. Even those vacant buildings come up into the conversations. Maybe having some informative plans designed can stimulate attraction, not only from the point of view of a community but also investors, and an opportunity to re-function those buildings.

Mr. Odran Reid

I refer to two of the regulations, the fire and building regulations. The Department has said there is a review of fire regulations due. It is not that anybody wants people to be burnt down or anything like that. The concept here is that people lived over shops previously and somehow we have built our regulations up to a point where they are making it difficult to do so. There is a cost in materials and in access and egress from shops that have been there for some time.

There is also something to be addressed with the owners of these premises. There is a fear of change. We have seen a number of places where people do not want anything to happen because it discommodes how they work and we have to overcome that. Some of that work might be done by the local authority proactively working in areas. The example of Carrickmacross was given earlier on. It had a whole street worked on in a space in time. That makes it cheaper. That gives people the experience of how to do this.

On the skill levels involved in doing this, something that is not being mentioned is design. We are good at making boxes in terms of planning but some of these can turn out to be attractive.

There is not a significant return for some of the owners. The return is elsewhere. That is where grant aid comes in. I am not necessarily always in favour of giving grants for private development, but something like this is about embellishing towns and cities and that is worthwhile.

Ms Maria Graham

I was asked about some of the European models. Two things strike me in particular in developing the town centre first approach. The comments we made about the importance of participation and collaboration around that wider multidisciplinary team and the community engagement were critically important. The programme for Government mentioned the Scottish town partnership. We would have spoken particularly to people in Scotland around their learning and what learnings we could get from them.

In the broader regeneration, there would be many European models that we would look to in terms of regeneration in terms of transport-oriented development. I might hand over to Mr. Hogan, if there is a minute left, to talk about those.

Mr. Paul Hogan

We had a delegation over from Flanders, which has 6 million and is roughly the same size as Ireland, in 2019, when it was possible to travel. We brought them to Limerick and Tipperary and it was fascinating to see those areas through their eyes. We intended at some point to learn from them. They have particular regeneration in a town called Roeselare. It is a larger town than those typically in Ireland, and what they have done there is to target empty shops, parking in town centres, public spaces and people's enjoyment of the place. They have refurbished a church for a market. They have addressed supports for innovative businesses. These are all the elements you would expect in a playbook for regeneration. We are also interested in seeing the car-free city approach in Ghent.

I refer to the review of the compulsory purchase orders.

Has the idea of compulsory sales orders and compulsory rental orders been considered?

Ms Maria Graham

We are waiting to see. This matter is with the LRC. We have not got any indication yet as to what it is thinking. Whatever comes forward will come in the form of new legislation to be debated.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

My view on the Derelict Sites Acts is the issue is not with legislation but the lack of use of it, including a lack of enforcement, a lack of accountability in local authorities using it and, perhaps, a lack of incentives for local authorities to use it. Can that aspect of it be examined?

Ms Maria Graham

The questions we have asked local authorities are around all the pieces, including legislative change and the difficulties or barriers to usage they may find. We are looking at that. As I said, we are looking at the town centre first initiative, which will put a focus on revitalising towns. The issue of dereliction will be a major part of that. We are seeing the resourcing of local authorities' planning functions.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I have one final question for the departmental officials and one other question after that. My understanding is that the vacant homes officers were all meant to be full-time positions, although only four of the local authorities have full-time officers. The rest have part-time officers or have added their duties to those of other people, which was referenced earlier. How will the Department be able to ensure that they all become full time? When do the officials expect they will all become full time? What is the thinking on that?

Ms Maria Graham

We have funded them until mid-2022 and we have sent out a circular to local authorities asking them to transition to making people full time. It is a full-time vacant homes officer position although two part-time people could make that up. The local authorities have to come back to us with their plans in that regard.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I have a question for Mr. Reynolds on the streamlined process. The contrast between the costs in Ireland and the UK is very stark, not just in respect of time and bureaucracy but in actual fees. Will he elaborate on why the costs are so high here? Is it just because they are all separate processes? What is involved in those costs compared to the UK? Why is Mr. Reynolds so confident that those costs can be brought down to a UK level? What is his thinking on that?

Mr. Mel Reynolds

The UK, and Northern Ireland in particular, has very similar standards to us and very similar demographics, but its processes are different. It is no one's fault that we have this system. We have three paper-based applications that have evolved in this way. The difficulty for somebody who, for example, owns a building a Youghal that is a protected structure with two vacant upper floors that he or she wants to do something with, is not only does that person possibly have to complete a change of use application for planning, which has been dealt with in the exemption, but the requirement for a fire search and a disabled access search is triggered. We also have building control amendment regulations, SI 9, our reinforced self-certification system that has been in place since 2014.

There is a difficulty with these three separate paper-based applications. Planning was never a problem. It is the most predictable of all the statutory processes to go through. The difficulty for somebody undertaking a new lease, or a project like that, is that person will only know if he or she did not get it when he or she is nearly towards the end of the process. A person can have planning, but all of a sudden that individual may not be able to get a disabled access route correctly in the building, or there may a requirement for a lift or some other requirement. The manual on the repurposing of existing buildings that was mentioned is very good, but it does not deal with the technical issues we have. We have 12 separate technical guidance documents and two secondary ones with approximately 600 pages of technical information.

For the person doing a scheme in a protected structure in a secondary town - Youghal is just an example - the rent will not be €2,000 a month as it is in Dún Laoghaire but an awful lot less. That person is looking at doing something with this protected structure; we have to make the it simpler. Even if there is a streamlined process, the process I have just outlined is one where a person can go in and there is no diminution of standards whatsoever. There might be a fire officer and the person queues up and goes with his or her drawings to that officer. The first one would be planning. If it is a conservation building, you go to the conservation officer, if you pass that you take your drawings to the fire officer and the last one would be the disabled access search. If there is an issue with the width of a doorway in a protected structure, that conversation can be had behind the counter and, therefore, an individual is not dealing with a process in isolation. Frequently, on that particular project I mentioned, which was a 35 sq. m ground floor change of use, the subconsultant who did the disabled access search had to do four separate layouts for two disabled toilets. It is madness but that is because it is looked at in isolation.

If we were able to get all the building control and planning officers around a table to look at these simple applications, they could be resolved very easily. It is a procedural thing. My colleague, Eoin Ó Cofaigh, who is an ex-president of the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland involved in drafting a number of the technical guidance documents, has confirmed that no primary legislation whatsoever is required for a process like this. This could be done in a series of two, or perhaps three, ministerial orders in the morning, if required. This would remove a critical barrier that we have-----

Chairman

I am sorry to interrupt Mr. Reynolds. It is a very important point, but we are up to nine minutes on that and I have to move on.

Mr. Mel Reynolds

No problem.

Chairman

I have no doubt that we will come back to that point. I will move on to the second Fine Gael slot.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the Chairman and everybody who has contributed. This is an issue I am particularly interested in. It has been a very good discussion. On Ms Graham's contribution, I particularly welcome the circular that was sent around yesterday on the vacant homes officers and the progress that is being made to make sure that they are full time throughout the country. It has been great to hear about the Italian experience from Ms Vallone, in addition to the experience in Clonakilty. That input from Mr. Hogan on Flanders and Amsterdam is very useful. I was quite taken by Mr. Reynolds's statistic of 40,000 dwellings when it comes to taking houses back into the housing stock and his figure of 4,000 relating to Dublin City Council. We recently met with representatives of the council on this matter; I will get into that a little later. Ms Murray O'Connor hit the nail on the head. The information is not reliable and that is what we need in this sphere. That is the critical first step because unless we measure and monitor the situation we will not be able to move the dial on it and make real progress. That is something that we as politicians, across the political divide, want to achieve. Mr. Reid made a very good point on the benefits of living above the shop, which does not just have a benefit in delivering a housing unit but also has a benefit for rural Ireland. That is quite a striking point.

Housing for All is all about delivering 300,000 new homes over five years, but its primary focus is on new builds and vacancies within council stock. Senator Cummins and I recently launched a discussion document on vacant properties outside of council stock. We believe, as do most people on this call, that we can unlock additional homes through a drive that would reduce vacancy. Our discussion document set out 26 actions that range from setting targets, as Senator Cummins alluded to, on repair and lease, build and renew, derelict sites and CPOs. There have been two pieces of good news in the past week relating to vacancies. First, the announcement by the Minister that there will be planning permission exemptions for people who want to turn a vacant or derelict site into a home and, as Ms Graham spoke about, the announcement that vacant homes officers will be full-time positions in each local authority area.

These are welcome developments, but we need to do more because all of us appreciate that it is just not right that houses lie idle in the middle of a housing crisis. The big issue, as Ms Murray O'Connor so articulately explained, is the unreliability of the data. The CSO and GeoDirectory are the two main data sources many of us use when it comes to vacant properties, but they have very different ranges in respect of categorising the problem. They give figures of 42,000 right up to 92,000. That is some difference so we need to get reliable statistics and we need to quantify the problem.

Mr. Reynolds spoke about the potential for 4,000 new homes in Dublin city centre, yet Dublin City Council representatives told the committee that it could only transform approximately 16 vacant or derelict units into homes. It is very hard for us to hold them accountable when we do not have a reliable data source. I have to say, and I said it at the time, that I just do not buy the figure of 16. I am particularly interested in the figures cited by Mr. Reynolds and the research done by UCC and DCU. I would love him to take a minute to elaborate on those.

All Ms Vallone's talk of decluttering and the joy she is bringing to Clonakilty makes her sound like Marie Kondo, but I am a big believer in not reinventing the wheel, taking best practice that has worked elsewhere and adapting it to the needs of other areas. I would be very interested in hearing her top three nuggets that she thinks we could do quickly, whether that be things she learned from Cork or Italy. Mr. Hogan interjected to recount the experience from Flanders with its regeneration projects. He also spoke about Amsterdam. I would love if he took a minute to talk to us about the top nuggets he feels we could implement.

Ms Graham spoke clearly about targets. I support my colleague, Senator Cummins, and ask that targets are set for schemes such as repair and leasing and build and repair.

We are just up to eight and a half minutes in this slot, so I am sorry, Deputy Higgins, but I have to move on. We can come back to those questions if we have time.

Ms Maria Graham

I will come in on the question of dereliction. We are in regular touch with local authorities to see what progress they are making on implementation of the legislation. We have sent out a number of circulars to try to ensure that the legislation is actively used.

That is why in November last year we started a process of engagement with local authorities to see what problems they were finding with the legislation, both in the legislation itself and other issues around it.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Sorry, I do not mean to interrupt Ms Graham, I am just managing my time. This legislation came in in 1990. That is 32 years ago. Was there no one in the Department looking at this in 32 years? I have raised this for 12 years in Cork City Council where I was stonewalled. Different Sinn Féin representatives have raised the issue of vacancy and dereliction. An official told me once off the record that they were taking a softly-softly approach to land hoarders. Softly-softly is no good for people in homeless accommodation or who do not have homes. It is no good to the communities that are being destroyed.

I mean no disrespect, but this circular was sent out in November. When was the decision made? I do not blame Ms Graham personally and I want to make that clear. I believe this is Government and ministerial failures over consecutive Governments. Someone must have told the Department. I think nine local authorities did not put a cent of a levy on last year. No local authority collected more than 10% of the levies. This is a scandal that land hoarders are being allowed away with this and the Department and local authorities are doing virtually nothing. The facts speak for themselves.

Chairman

There is about a minute left if Ms Graham wants to answer that.

Ms Maria Graham

We have to recognise that over the past two years, local authorities have faced some difficulty in implementing some of their schemes with some restrictions. They have done a fabulous job in keeping the planning system open. I want to put that on the record. There are a couple of lines that I want to mention. There is a specific pathway within Housing for All. There are four pathways and one is around using our existing stock. That is across all the components.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I want to stop Ms Graham on that because my time is nearly up. Before Housing for All, was no policy being implemented to tackle dereliction and vacant property for the past 32 years?

Ms Maria Graham

In Rebuilding Ireland, there were vacant homes officers and manuals and so on were developed. The legislation has been in place. There have been various regeneration schemes. There have been various issues over the past 30 years. We can look at areas of cities that were derelict and are no longer. It is a difficult issue to crack and it has to be focused on across legislation, regulation, funding, taxation and enabling. It is important to help people through the process and collaborative participation and having a vision for towns that people can work to in partnership together. If everything is working in the right direction, then we will tackle vacancy and dereliction.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I appreciate Ms Graham's answers. My points were not a criticism of her Department.

Chairman

We move to the Fianna Fáil slot. Is Deputy McAuliffe taking this?

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

During the general election campaign, the overwhelming majority of members of the committee committed to try to increase the supply of housing. A large majority of the committee believe that we should do that by increasing the supply of public housing using AHBs and local authorities. If we answer that question in 2021 with the publication of Housing for All and the multi-annual budget, the question that remains for 2022 is whether the public housing system is able to deliver those houses and has the ambition to do so. I am including the Department and AHBs but principally the local authorities.

Ms Giulia Vallone

There are usually a few local engineers in the structure of municipal districts in local authorities. After the abolition of town councils, municipal districts were created. There are eight in Cork County Council, for example. Each municipal district has a local engineer. That is mainly who will take care of the town centre. That is why it is very important-----

Chairman

I mean no disrespect to engineers because they build fantastic bridges and roads and make fantastic designs, but sometimes they lack the ability to conduct the ideas and that is very important in planning. One of the recommendations I will put forward is a county architect for every local authority. In some cases if local authorities need to share a county architect, that might be acceptable as well.

My next question on spatial planning and planning in general is probably for TU Dublin. If we want to encourage somebody to rejuvenate an upper floor of a terrace, often the space outside - the public realm, the footpath and the traffic calming measures which make it a nice place to live - is outside the remit of the developer or owner. How do we deal with the local authority and the developer who wants to do that? Do we put in the public realm first to encourage the over-the-shop rejuvenation or how do we get to work together? Does Mr. Reid wish to take that question?

Mr. Odran Reid

It is difficult to do if it is one-off. If one is doing it in an area, it is a collaboration between the local authority and perhaps a number of developers, or it could be the local authority itself. That urban renewal piece would be very important. One area I constantly look at is Capel Street, which has a lot of vacancy above. It is one of the more dynamic streets and it is looking at potentially being pedestrianised or close to pedestrianisation. That urban framework can be really important. It becomes a little more difficult to do that with a one-off.

To refer back to the design for apartments, we keep going back to universal design. I am not sure that we must have universal design for some of the retrofitting we do over some shops. That is probably quite controversial for some people, and it is not that I am against people with disabilities, but sometimes we must look at what we have in terms of the cost and the capacity to be able to do some of this stuff. Likewise, if one has universal design in the buildings, one does not have it on the footpaths outside, as you quite rightly said. It can be a very alien environment for people. The real difficulty with this is that sometimes in some of the places we want to put people in terms of creating a dynamic, particularly in a city area, there are noise levels at night. Things like good insulation and a range of different things become critically important. Parks are also important. When we are talking about accommodation and retrofitting in city areas, we have to be able to put spaces for people who want to enjoy the urban environment as well.

Chairman

I am sorry to interrupt Mr. Reid, but I have to be tight with my time.

Mr. Odran Reid

Sure.

Chairman

However, I agree with you. We were talking about a European model. In many European models there is high-density town living but there are also very good managed civic squares and places, be it the municipal authority or whoever that manages them.

My final question is for Mr. Reynolds and it is about dereliction. Do he think the definition of dereliction is too vague? We describe the building as neglected or as detracting visually from an area, but often somebody might just throw a lick of paint on it or board up a door and paint it and that takes the focus off it for a while. Do we need to strengthen, and be very clear and consistent about, what we consider dereliction to be?

Mr. Mel Reynolds

It goes back to what Ms Murray O'Connor said earlier about data sets and looking at the information that is available to us. When the CSO does its census it has a standardised process for assessing what is vacant and what is derelict. It also has standard definitions and they are comparable to those in other countries. It uses a standardised set of assumptions so when one is comparing Ireland with the UK or the Netherlands, one is comparing apples with apples. I would go with its definitions of a derelict property and a vacant property. A derelict property is probably one where the ESB has been disconnected, it has been unoccupied for at least two years and it is uninhabitable, whereas a vacant property, and the fair deal scheme incentivises vacancy in many cases, is one that is habitable, it is probably connected, but there is nobody living in it at that time. I would go with the current data sets we have.

The CSO is very good and rigorous. Geodata is very detailed. It is a totally different data set and one cannot compare geodata figures related to vacancy with those of a different jurisdiction because there are different assumptions underpinning them. It would be well worthwhile for the committee to invite somebody from the CSO to go through the assumptions the CSO makes. They are very rigorous. I went through this in 2017 when I was interrogating the figures being produced by the Department for new housing, which were subsequently passed by the then Minister, Mr. Eoghan Murphy, to the CSO to audit. The CSO is rigorous and very good, so I would go with the CSO definitions to keep everything consistent, and then it will be possible to compare us with best practice in other jurisdictions because the census definitions are the same no matter what country one goes to.

Chairman

Thank you. Deputy McAuliffe will speak next and then we will go into the third round. Members should indicate if they wish to speak on the third round.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

First, I must apologise to the other witnesses with whom I have not engaged today. I very much appreciate the submissions they have made and have no doubt that this committee will try to include as many as possible in its final report. I am using my time to question the Department but perhaps if we had more modules, we might have been able to call witnesses to separate meetings.

I wish to question Ms Graham on two specific areas. Urban regeneration is incredibly important for the delivery of housing, which I previously referenced. One of the great lessons from the 1960s and 1970s is that community facilities and the physical infrastructure of communities did not always follow through. One of the concerns I have with Housing for All, both for existing and new communities, is that the supply of housing will happen but it is not clear that we will be able to fund and prioritise community facilities in those areas. I ask Ms Graham to outline how the Department intends to do that in two places, namely greenfield sites where we are effectively building new towns and in traditional communities. The latter are really concerned about new houses coming on stream. In Santry, for example, a lot of residents are very fearful that there will be an increase in housing supply but that they will not necessarily get new community facilities to match that. I use the term "community facilities" in its broadest sense to include schools, health centres and community resources like halls and so on. How will the Department use that element of urban regeneration to match the housing supply?

Ms Maria Graham

There are three different components. The URDF covers multi-stranded developments and can include everything from transport to community facilities. Regarding new developments in general, it is happening in the context of the national planning framework. We work very closely on the Project Ireland 2040 delivery board in making sure school and transport provision and other infrastructural provision are all aligned. Specifically within Housing for All, one of the things we have been working on is land value sharing to make sure that infrastructure is coming on board. I will ask Mr. Hogan to elaborate on that.

Mr. Paul Hogan

We will obviously be coming back to this committee in due course with more detail on all of this but in a nutshell, what we have identified is a mechanism to capture a greater share of the uplift in value in two conditions. One is when land is newly zoned and the other is for designated areas. Designated areas are particularly targeted as being brownfield areas, the sort of places that one might identify in places like Finglas, where there are a large number of vacant brownfield-type buildings that are suitable for redevelopment. The problem has always been when we get the development we do not always get the community facilities, as the Deputy said. There is a need to better target that on behalf of the community and to identify, as part of the overall planning process for that designated area, what will be required and then to determine what is a fair proportion split between the State, the developer and the local authority. We do need to move that on and land value sharing is a mechanism to do that. We have published the heads of a Bill that we are doing some further economic appraisal on and that will be refined and brought back as a firm proposal to Government later this year. In principle, at the point of zoning for newly zoned land or at the point of designation, we establish existing use, which involves quite extensive surveying and assessment of the land value and then at a later point in the process, when value is established on the land, we identify the difference. The principle is-----

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

I am sorry to interrupt but is Mr. Hogan saying that this will be available to both new communities and existing communities?

Mr. Paul Hogan

It will apply to existing communities in the sense that the urban development zone, UDZ, concept is to do with existing areas and largely the sorts of areas that are being talked about for redevelopment within cities and towns. We do have the SDZ model for greenfield sites and where that has worked, it has worked well. In certain instances there have been issues, often related to a multiplicity of landowners and things like that but we have learned from that experience. The UDZ model could, in time, be applied to both. One of the knock-ons from developing this legislation will be addressing the current levy system and how that will interact with both the zoned land tax that is coming in and the new designation that I have talked about. We will have to look at where that leaves all other lands and at how community levies are applied there too because there will have to be some sort of relationship between the two. I would not necessarily say a level playing field because not everything can be the same but we do not want to see cliff face-type scenarios either. We will have to address that as part of it.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

That is part of a much bigger debate and is very welcome.

There has been some discussion of CPOs and enhanced CPOs. When will that full range of policy tools be available to local authorities? There is a lot of concern about reticence at local authority level, which is based on experience. They have spent millions of euro on CPOs that have not delivered anything. What can we do to support local authorities to be ambitious with CPOs again?

Ms Maria Graham

We are dependent on the LRC in terms of the legislation and are hoping it will prioritise the housing-related elements. We are also working with the Housing Agency, which has technical expertise on CPOs that it can give to local authorities because there is varying experience around that.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I will begin by taking up where Deputy Gould left off on vacancy and what has been done about it up to now. I suggest that people familiarise themselves with the National Vacant Housing Reuse Strategy 2018-2021, which was published in 2018. In May 2020, its report pointed to 420 vacant properties being purchased from financial institutions by local authorities, 62 purchased for sale, 161 homes being delivered through repair and lease and 545 homes being delivered through build and repair. Of course, these statistics are, thankfully, out of date and we now know that more than 1,000 homes have been delivered through repair and lease and build and repair alone and what we want to see is more of that. That is why we are championing the need for local authorities to be given targets so that they deliver more homes through these mechanisms. That is what we are asking for cross-party support on.

To come in here and say that there is no strategy, nobody is working on this, there is no budget and nothing is being done is a bit disingenuous. Admittedly, more needs to be done and that is why Senator Cummins and I have been advocating for targets to be set in this field. We ran out of time during my previous contribution but I would love to hear Ms Graham give a commitment to come back to the committee on whether targets relating to vacancy, repair and lease and build and repair can be set. That question is a bit of a rollover from my previous slot. I would also like to ask a rollover question of Mr. Hogan on the top three nuggets or tips he got from Flanders or the studies of Amsterdam that he thinks we can lift and shift to Ireland.

I have an additional question that may not come under Mr. O'Sullivan's remit but I am sure he has some expertise in it. I would love somebody to talk us through the vacant homes website, vacanthomes.ie. What happens when someone reports a site, how does the process work and how many of those sites have been transformed into homes?

Ms Maria Graham

I thank the Deputy for recalling the national vacant housing reuse strategy.

One of the issues we are looking at in the vacant homes and the town centre first policy is how we bring together all of the actions that are specific to towns. I will reflect on the point the committee is making on the targets. Our social housing people are very conscious of the need for flexibility and many of these schemes are dependent on people coming forward with them. They want to ensure they maximise their social housing numbers and they do not want the target to be something that is not met for that reason. That said, I will reflect on the points the Deputy has made. This is one of the issues that will be considered in the context of the delivery action plans but we will also look at in the context of the broader town centre first and the vacant homes policies and the strategies that local authorities will have to deal with vacancy.

I might ask Mr. Hogan and Mr. O'Sullivan to add further.

Mr. Paul Hogan

There are three points to respond to. The answers are not necessarily only found in European countries or elsewhere, as we know many of them ourselves. A good document was prepared by our colleagues in the Department of Rural and Community Development. They undertook a pilot town centre living initiative a couple of years ago and published a synthesis report. The lessons are universal.

Many people have mentioned data, but we should not be looking at data from a top-down national statistic level only. What really matters is data at local level. Regional assemblies are now looking at towns in their jurisdictions. That will be critical for targeting areas where there are concentrations of vacancies and derelicts. It comes down to people on the ground surveying the floors of individual units, understanding what is happening in their towns and doing that work alongside the key stakeholders, those being people who care about the issue and are empowered to do something about it. The most basic element of planning is survey analysis.

A second point is incentives. No matter where it is, people have to want to refurbish properties because doing so costs more. They may need support. It is a common occurrence elsewhere. One of the reasons we are so interested in European examples is because we share the fairness and proportionality test of state aid. If money is being given to people to do something, it has to be for a significant public policy purpose. Why is it that, in the counties most affected by vacancies and dereliction, three quarters of the new houses built in the past ten years were outside urban settlements and largely one-off individual houses? People are voting with their feet for various reasons: living in urban settlements is expensive, cultural reasons and the overall environment. We are doing a great deal to tackle these issues through, for example, the Town Centre First policy and many of the funding schemes that have been mentioned, including the rural development fund, RDF, and the urban fund. That combined €3 billion commitment is the largest regeneration scheme in the history of the State. From the public perspective, it is bigger than the 20 years we had of urban regeneration.

A third point is co-ordination. I get the need for streamlining and co-ordination and the fact that processes need to be easier. Incentivisation is a part of that. However, it cannot be just as simple as making decisions over a counter. Something that will probably be reflected in Town Centre First is the need for someone to draw things together, interpret for people and explain it to them. Ms Vallone does that in Cork. The architectural professional is well placed to lead in this regard, but I would not view it as being exclusively the preserve of architects. There are people involved in community development as well as planners who, if lifted from regulatory burdens, would be equally skilled at leading urban regeneration. I am referring to people who are passionate and committed, have vision and can communicate that vision in order to do something to address the complex problems involved, using the tools that we are now giving them. It is the idea of drawing things together for people and co-ordinating in many different ways.

These three lessons are universal across European projects as much as they are across Irish ones. We have all learned them and want to implement them.

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan

Regarding the question on vacant homes, that is a local government initiative supported by the Department. Our colleagues on Mayo County Council are managing it. That it is coming from the local government sector is important. The public can make reports through a website and vacant home offices and teams in the local authority are immediately notified. They can research the vacant homes' ownership and bring the situation to the council's attention so that it can look to the initiatives we have discussed, for example, the repair-and-lease and buy-and-renew schemes, to bring the homes back into use. This approach puts a house on the relevant local authority's radar through reporting it via one website.

I cannot say what specifically has been brought back into use because there are different schemes, but we will be engaging with local authorities at the workshop on Thursday and I will be interested in discussing that point with them.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I wish to return to an issue that I raised previously. In his opening statement, Mr. Reynolds said that the process for changing internal use in Ireland cost more than €10,000 in the form of fees, permissions, fire certificates and so on and took nearly half a year whereas the process in the UK for a similar internal change of use involved a fee of £695 and only took ten days. That is a stark contrast. From speaking to people involved in turning unused office accommodation into much-needed residential accommodation, I know how frustrated they find this process.

The departmental officials said it was their view that the streamlined processes advocated by Mr. Reynolds, Ms Orla Hegarty and Dr. Lorcan Sirr would transfer extra risk to the State, including the local authorities undertaking them. I wish to explore that point. Is there evidence for this view? How has it been arrived at? Will the officials elaborate?

Ms Maria Graham

In many of these cases, there may be a planning exemption. Mr. Reynolds said that planning was perhaps the easiest part of the process. In terms of the building regulations and conservation components, my understanding of the building regulatory process is that, having made certain reforms to building regulations, it was their assessment that the proposed changes would pass on that risk.

We are examining the fire component. The Department is open in that regard. There will be a public consultation on whether improvements can be made. I understand that the process will open for public consultation later this year. My understanding is that we have not had specific changes proposed as yet other than the generality of the points that have been made. We are interested in hearing specific recommendations around the regulatory space.

I worked as a planner in Meath in the late 1990s. Fire regulations and fire requirements are there for important reasons. I recall an example of a fire in an apartment unit above a shop where several children were, thankfully, pulled out alive. They had been sleeping in a room that was off a room that was unregulated. I recall the fire officers being extremely agitated at this and concerned that it might have been granted planning permission inadvertently. Thankfully, it had not been.

These sorts of decision have consequences and cannot necessarily be made under pressure and over a counter with a range of other decisions and people in a queue. It does not work like that. These are very important issues. I would urge a little perspective.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Fire safety regulations are incredibly important. I have been strong on that issue over the years and I would not want to see any diminution of them at all. My clear understanding, however, from the people making this proposal is that they do not have a view that there would be any such diminution in the fire safety regulations. They would remain strong but this proposal would create a faster and less costly process. I am trying to explore if that is the case in the UK and what evidence there is that it cannot be done here. The proposers are not saying they want to water down fire safety regulations or anything else. Orla Hegarty is one of the strongest advocates of fire safety regulations in the country, so we can accept the bona fides of the proposers in this regard. Perhaps Mr. Reynolds might like to respond on these issues.

Mr. Mel Reynolds

It is basically a procedural reform and does not entail any diminution of any existing standards whatsoever. It is about doing it in a more streamlined fashion and integrating the different regulatory streams. A version of this was developed in the Urban Regeneration and Housing (Amendment) Bill 2018, which was legislation from the Opposition that had all-party support on Second Stage in 2018. Therefore, this is not changing our standards or making them any less onerous. It is concern with making it easier for people to undertake regularised developments. A regulatory system that is difficult and expensive to negotiate will encourage people to just carry out unauthorised developments, as Mr. Hogan mentioned.

What is being done here is to make it cheaper and easier to negotiate the process. It will bring people in and encourage them to do this properly. Any streamlined system like this process must be accompanied by much simpler technical guidance documents as well. It is no use having a simplified system or incentives in place if people are being referred to 12 or 14 technical guidance documents, many of which will not be relevant and which are 600 pages long. In a situation where a proposal concerns a modest building, for example, it is not going to happen if there is a requirement for a lift. Equally, if there is a requirement for balconies or private open spaces off each dwelling, then it is not going to happen either. Energy and conservation are the two areas in which my professional expertise lies. These areas must be looked at in practical terms. As Mr. Reid said earlier, at a certain point we must compromise and consider what we can live with in this regard. Perfection is the enemy of progress, so we must get people in these structures, make them save, concentrate on comfort and get those buildings up to modern standards as best we can. Otherwise, it is simply just not going to happen.

Presented with a proposal by an owner for a change in use for an existing building, most of my colleagues will say he or she should not bother. It will either not be possible to get a fire safety certificate or a disabled access certificate. It might be possible to get planning permission for the change, but the project will be nobbled somewhere. No additional warranties are issued which incur additional risk in Northern Ireland in the context of building control compared with down here. It is just that the processes are different. Therefore, we can do the same thing and implement the same standards in a much simpler way without any additional risk to our local authorities. This is a proposal that should be looked at. We can put in as many incentives or taxes as we want, but we must also make it easier for people to undertake these projects.

Okay. Is that something we need to look at? I am thinking about heritage streets especially. They may not be in architectural conservation areas or they may not be heritage or protected buildings, but there is still a certain streetscape there that should be protected in some way.

Mr. Paul Hogan

I think that might fall into the trap of trying to over-regulate, to be honest. These things are best assessed at a local level. An architectural conservation area is possible under planning legislation. That does not necessarily involve protected structures and may not be grounds for de-exemption either. Therefore, there are ways of addressing and approaching this aspect with existing mechanisms without adding to the list of protected structures. As Ms Graham said, the status of being a protected structure can de-exempt or have the effect of de-exempting.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Hogan.

If somebody is going to carry out a development they consider to be exempt, do they have to seek clarification as to whether it is exempt?

Mr. Paul Hogan

Not if it is clear-cut. That is the purpose of the regulation. It sets it out clearly.

Chairman

Thanks. I will have to look a little closer at that. I have a question on spatial planning. Is the design manual for urban roads and streets suitable and appropriate where we are trying to bring town centre living back into place? Are there changes the witnesses would suggest to that? Ms Vallone might wish to comment on that as well.

Mr. Paul Hogan

Absolutely. I was involved with the design manual for urban roads and streets going back to the beginning of it. Part of the motivation for it was the fact we had brought in across the board density standards for higher density residential development without addressing road standards. Road standards were based on the highway design manuals for fast, large roads and were not appropriate to residential or urban settings. We tried to bring in a load of lower speed requirements to make places safer and more enjoyable for people.

One of the biggest challenges goes back to what I said about why someone would want to live in a town. It is the feeling you are getting a benefit and it is safe. When you open your door, it might open onto a footpath, but it has to be somewhere you feel safe walking and HGVs and cars are not driving past at speed. Particularly for a family with kids, it is important.

Ms Vallone is operating this in a practical way and I am sure she can elaborate on the intention of the manual. Through town centre first and other updated urban guidance, we want to bring forward a complementary urban design manual for urban roads and streets, DMURS, that also addresses buildings, density and things like that. We are working on that.

Ms Giulia Vallone

Thirteen are completely disregarding the legislation. Is there not an onus on the Department to ensure local authorities do their job? There is €12.5 million in derelict site levies outstanding. Last year, only 6.9% of derelict site levies that were imposed were collected. These are shocking figures. Does Ms Graham not agree?

Ms Maria Graham

We are anxious to ensure the legislation is used in a way that fully reflects the reasons for which the Oireachtas passed it. The first line of accountability for the legislation is at local authority level.

Deputy Thomas Gould

In a nutshell, are the local authorities not doing their job?

Ms Maria Graham

What I am saying is that, from the evidence we have seen, there appear to be some barriers and enhancements, and different practices in different local authorities. We are trying to get to the bottom of it to ensure the legislation is being maximised, and we are considering changes that might need to come into play.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank Ms Graham.

Mr. Reynolds referred to thousands of properties that could be developed. I believe he said they are between the canals or quays. I am sorry if I am misquoting him. I am a Corkman but, being a Deputy, I am around Dublin. I see derelict and vacant sites all over the place. Mr. Reynolds has considered this. What is hindering Dublin's local authorities and others from using the sites or building on them?

Mr. Mel Reynolds

There are several factors. Economics is probably one. We saw the sharp price inflation outside Dublin last year. It is actually really positive in that it has to pay people to have a look at the upper floors. Back in 2017, Dr. Lorcan Sirr outlined that some local authorities had rate rebates for vacant upper floors, so there was incentivisation. A certain amount of dereliction is involved in the normal property cycle, whereby people are assembling sites. The Deputy touched on some of the issues. If there is a €3 billion fund, one needs to have full-time staff administering it. Full-time staff in local authorities are also needed. Let us consider the sorts of detailed studies we are talking about, whereby we examine streets and devise strategies for them. We carry out door-by-door surveys. The North Main Street study carried out by University College Cork in 2018 involved this type of exercise. It came up with some really interesting findings. It takes manpower, however. On the one hand, one cannot expect something to happen if one does not have the manpower behind it. There is a combination of regulatory barriers. It is difficult; our processes are very lumpy at the moment. We need a mixture of carrots and sticks. Incentives are needed. Our local authorities need to step up.

It is important to point out that some local authorities are doing really well. Waterford local authority was mentioned earlier. It has done really good work through the repair and lease scheme. Louth County Council has done really good work on CPOs and bringing back existing derelict and vacant properties for social housing. The Limerick regeneration project is knocking the ball out of the park when it comes to really good urban design-led initiatives. It is carrying out surgical interventions on the urban fabric. We probably need to determine the local authorities that are doing well, what they are doing and the staff they have.

On the question regarding architects involved in local authorities, a design professional is needed. The process has to be design-led. The local authorities have a serious role to play in this regard. A number of things need to happen here in terms of policy, but the space available for residential use is considerable. Every city and town has it, as one will see if one just looks overhead.

Cost was mentioned as a barrier. Approximately three years ago, Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown County Council carried out an EnerPHit passive-standard retrofit of semi-derelict social housing in Rochestown Avenue. It brought more than 30 units back into use. The all-in cost to bring them up to the passive standard was less than €100,000 per unit. Retrofits can be carried out a lot more quickly than other projects. The buildings are already serviced. Retrofits have all the benefits that Mr. Reid and others mentioned regarding bringing towns and cities back into active service. Retrofitting can be done very quickly and cost-effectively.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I completely agree.

Ms Vallone mentioned studies that involved walking around to see the issues in areas. We can sometimes overcomplicate things and have so much red tape. Things can be done when there are good officials, architects and councillors on the ground.

Chairman

I agree with the Deputy. We have almost reached the end of the session and there are only a couple of minutes left. I want to offer a minute or two to all the witnesses if they wish to put their strongest recommendation to us.

Ms Giulia Vallone

I said earlier that it is great to have funding but sometimes low-level funding in a large area almost results in more clutter. More auditing is required. There is an opportunity to ask all the members what is meant by a town centre. It means something different in each local authority because it relates to the local area plan. Why do we not consider architectural conservation areas, identifying the solid cores of town centres and delineating them through strong visual and material differences, almost by creating a threshold? In Italy, you know immediately when you are in the town centre because there are paving stones and beautiful lights. Why do we not try to start small? Rather than spreading funds, let us concentrate on small areas and see what happens in terms of proper design standards and design codes.

It is a matter of public participation and educational and visual-awareness programmes. We should work with schools, starting with the children, to develop visual awareness regarding what constitutes a townscape, town centre and heritage. This, together with educating chambers, councillors and Tidy Towns representatives, would be a great asset for local authorities.

Mr. Odran Reid

We should use our State assets well. For example, we should move bus garages to where they should be. We should be very smart in doing what we do. I would definitely consider urban regeneration. Many of our suburbs are very poorly designed in some respects and are of very low density. There are a number of hits there.

On vacancy, I do not have to tell many politicians that many vacant properties, particularly those owned by the local authorities, are vacant because of drug dealing and antisocial behaviour. These issues must be addressed. They are part of the housing package to put it that way. Regardless of the policies we have, there are others that need to be put in place to make them work.

Last, on the taxation issue, we should just be smart. That is where the carrot and stick will be. Some of this is about encouragement but there should be penalties for those that do not use things, including the State and local authorities.

Ms Helen Murray O'Connor

A key takeaway is that any measure concerning housing provision must include a step to ensure any building that is not already on the property register will be included. It is not a land grab by any means with respect to the PRA, but I believe completing the register is a necessary step.

Mr. Reynolds made a point about the CSO definitions and categorisations. The proposed addition would be very welcome.

Perhaps the committee should consider an invitation. That is worthy of consideration.

Mr. Mel Reynolds

Local authorities do not have to do everything. The committee should consider what it is in control of. Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has done amazing things over the lockdowns. I think there has been a willingness since the start of the pandemic such that stakeholders will do this sort of stuff. Previously, colleagues were telling me there were intractably closed doors. Now people are saying, "Let's do it." The public realm has changed and crossed a line, I think, with the pandemic. If the situation is made easy for people to do things, the market - people in the private sector - will do them.

One of the biggest cohorts involved in new build supply in Ireland - they never get any representation; if anything, there is unconscious bias against them - are self-builders. Between 25% and 45% of new build supply in any given year involve people who are just doing it themselves. Frequently, they get the sites themselves, battle to get planning to build in certain areas and so on. We should ask whether we can get some of those self-builders building over shops, create a situation where there is a vacant upper floor space and all the statutory permissions are in place, and those units are sold to prospective owners for them to do the work themselves or employ builders to do it. If the processes are simplified and it is made less difficult to do what we need to do, we do not have to look that far. Northern Ireland does it. We can see an awful lot more stuff happening.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Reynolds. Does somebody from the Department wish to sum up? I do not want to put the witnesses on the spot and ask them to advise us as to what to do.

Ms Maria Graham

I will just say that between Housing for All and town centre first, I am very optimistic about us having the toolkits and the funding in place to deliver on the pathway of Housing for All, which is very important. We have discussed a number of regulatory changes, and I look forward to working with the committee on that. What is required is vision, energy and collaboration. The Department will not be behind the door in trying to ensure that pathway is delivered on.

Chairman

I thank Ms Graham, Mr. Hogan and Mr. O'Sullivan for their attendance. This has been the third meeting on this topic. The committee will now try to put together a report on the matter. We have had a fascinating nine hours of discussion with a broad range of experts. I studied planning years ago, like many people here, and living over the shops was talked about in the 1990s and the 2000s, but I think there is a real resurgence of the idea and a real need for it now. We have looked at what has happened during the Covid pandemic with working from home and the realisation that our towns and villages are now a lot more to us than just somewhere from where we commute and where we spend a few hours at the weekend. With digitisation, I think we will see more opportunity for people to work from home, at work clubs, etc. That brings that local economic benefit as well.

Of course, housing needs have to underpin all we have discussed. The collaborative town centre health checks are key to that. It is a matter of collaboration in order that it does not become the local authority's plan or the planner's plan but is a collective stakeholder involvement such that it is our town or village and this is how we want to see it develop, assisted by the Department and the local authorities. I believe the local authorities and the Departments want to assist and see the value in this. Having the county architects there will be key to that and to string all these different policies and visions together. There needs to be that mix of incentives and penalties in place to stimulate this, to move it along and to make it easy for people because people inherently know what they want in their town or village and know what they want to do in it.

I look forward to the committee report. I look forward to all committee members trying to work together and to pull together all the advice we have received over recent months. I thank everybody for their attendance today. I will now adjourn the meeting until 6 p.m. this Thursday, when the committee will commence pre-legislative scrutiny on the monuments and archaeological heritage Bill.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.05 p.m. until 6 p.m. on Thursday, 27 January 2022.

Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage díospóireacht - Tuesday, 25 Jan 2022

Urban Regeneration: Discussion (Resumed)

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Giulia Vallone

Ms Giulia Vallone

Mr. Mel Reynolds

Ms Helen Murray O'Connor

Mr. Odran Reid

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Helen Murray O'Connor

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Giulia Vallone

Mr. Odran Reid

Ms Maria Graham

Mr. Paul Hogan

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Mr. Mel Reynolds

Mr. Mel Reynolds

Mr. Mel Reynolds

Ms Giulia Vallone

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Giulia Vallone

Ms Giulia Vallone

Mr. Odran Reid

Mr. Odran Reid

Mr. Mel Reynolds

Ms Maria Graham

Mr. Paul Hogan

Mr. Paul Hogan

Ms Maria Graham

Ms Maria Graham

Mr. Paul Hogan

Mr. Patrick O'Sullivan

Ms Maria Graham

Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Jan 2022