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Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 Feb 2022

General Scheme of the Monuments and Archaeological Heritage Bill: Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage

This is our third session to carry out pre-legislative scrutiny on the general scheme of the monuments and archaeological heritage Bill. Today we are joined from the Heritage Council by Ms Virginia Teehan, chief executive officer and Mr. Ian Doyle, head of conservation. From the Office of Public Works, OPW, we are joined by Ms Rosemary Collier, head of heritage services and capital works delivery, and Mr. Ken Moore, principal officer. Remotely we are joined on MS Teams by Mr. Brian Keaney, vice president of the Irish Planning Institute. They are very welcome here today and the committee thanks them for their assistance in helping us scrutinise this important legislation. Members have been circulated with the opening statements and a briefing. I will read a short note on privilege before we begin.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in the public meetings. For those attending remotely from within the Leinster House complex, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contribution to today's meeting. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. For witnesses attending remotely from outside the Leinster House complex, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a person who is physically present within the Leinster House complex. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite our witnesses to make their opening statements. The order will be the Heritage Council, Ms Teehan, the OPW, Ms Collier and then the IPI, Mr. Keaney. I invite Ms Teehan to make her opening statement on behalf of the Heritage Council.

Ms Virginia Teehan

I thank the Chair and committee members for inviting the Heritage Council to present today. My name is Virginia Teehan, I am chief executive officer of the Heritage Council. It is a pleasure for me to meet with the committee again and I thank the committee for its continuing interest in heritage. I am accompanied today by my colleague, Mr. Ian Doyle, head of conservation. The Heritage Council’s remit is very broad. Today’s topic, that of the monuments and archaeological heritage Bill, is of particular interest to us, as we have over many years engaged in the drafting of this through expert advisory groups.

The Heritage Council, which was established in 1995, inherited powers under the National Monuments Acts 1930 to 2004, specifically the role and responsibilities of the National Monuments Advisory Council. The Heritage Council has specific responsibilities under section 6 of the Heritage Act, which states:

The functions of the Council shall be to propose policies and priorities for the identification, protection, preservation and enhancement of the national heritage, including monuments, archaeological objects, heritage objects, architectural heritage, flora, fauna, wildlife habitats, landscapes, seascapes, wrecks, geology, heritage gardens, parks and inland waterways.

Since its foundation, the Heritage Council has undertaken extensive research, policy development, delivery and evaluation to support the planning, and management of Ireland’s unique archaeological heritage. Our commitment to supporting archaeological heritage is evident by our initiation and management of the initiatives I will now outline.

The Irish walled towns network, IWTN, was formed by the Heritage Council in 2005 to unite and co-ordinate the strategic efforts of local authorities and other stakeholders involved in the management, conservation and enhancement of historic walled towns in Ireland, both North and South. The Heritage Council offers annual grants to the 29 towns that participate in the IWTN for the conservation and care of medieval town defences.

On the basis of policy advice provided to the Government on research needs in Irish archaeology, the council set up the Irish national strategic archaeological research, INSTAR, programme in 2008. This funded a number of key collaborative projects in areas such as neolithic agriculture, ancient human remains and early medieval settlement. This scheme has recently been relaunched by the National Monuments Service in collaboration with the Heritage Council and the Irish Research Council, and is now known as INSTAR+.

The Heritage Council is the primary funder of the discovery programme, the centre for archaeology and heritage research which was established by the Government in 1991. It is a company limited by guarantee and covers areas of activity which concern climate change and coastal archaeology and the completion of the field survey at the Hill of Tara, County Meath.

The Heritage Council’s adopt a monument scheme aims to empower local communities to take an active role in understanding, engaging with and protecting their local heritage. Community groups that apply to take part in the scheme select an archaeological or historic monument in their locality. If they are successful in their application to join the scheme, they literally adopt the monument. The scheme now has a membership of 20 communities across the country who are engaged in caring for and learning about their local monuments. After a public call, five new groups in Kerry, Cork, Donegal, Monaghan and Kildare will join this initiative in 2022.

The Heritage Council funds community archaeologists in partnership with the local authorities and farming bodies in Galway, Sligo, south Dublin, Dublin city, Roscommon and the Burren. In the Burren and the Rathcroghan area of Roscommon, these are part of European innovation partnerships intended to demonstrate how farming can be beneficial for biodiversity, landscape and monuments. We will expand this scheme in 2022 to counties Clare, Donegal and Wicklow.

Furthermore, the Heritage Council has produced several policy documents and guidance notes to support local authorities and communities in caring for archaeology, for example, notes on historic graveyards, rock art and ogham stones. Working with a range of partners, including the National Monuments Service, the Office of Public Works, private landowners and local authorities, we have also supported the completion of conservation and management plans for important complexes like the Hill of Uisneach, County Westmeath, the Woodstown Viking age site in Waterford, and the Hill of Tara, County Meath, as well as a research framework for the Brú na Bóinne world heritage site, County Meath.

Today, we are here to talk about the revised general scheme of the monuments and archaeological heritage Bill, which, at 84 heads, is a major piece of proposed heritage legislation. Given that the provisions of the 1930 Act are still in force almost 100 years later, the proposed Bill is important for Ireland’s heritage because it will guide and regulate practice and protection for several generations to come. It is also likely to be of interest internationally. We note the significant time and effort that has been invested during this lengthy process. The Heritage Council welcomes the opportunity to comment on the revised general scheme of the monuments and archaeological heritage Bill. The council has engaged in this process since 2008 via the expert advisory committee and, prior to this, in an earlier review during the period 1999 to 2001.

The legislative framework protecting archaeological resources in Ireland is governed principally by the National Monuments Acts, together with relevant provisions of the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997. Under the existing legislation, a number of mechanisms have been applied in order to secure the protection of archaeological monuments, including the register of historic monuments and the placing of preservation orders and temporary preservation orders on endangered monuments. The disparate statutory sources for the above mechanisms are indicative of the piecemeal nature of the legislative framework’s development, with the consolidation of this framework being one of the principal aims of the Bill, which we welcome.

We support the purpose of the proposed Bill, which seeks: first, to streamline the current multiple systems of monument protection into a single register with two levels of protection for monuments; second, to harmonise the system for protection of underwater cultural heritage with that for archaeological heritage on land; third, to introduce a statutory reporting scheme with associated automatic legal protection for new discoveries of archaeological sites; fourth, to revoke the various forms of licences and consents that exist under the Acts, which would be replaced with an integrated licensing system for works and other activities regulated under it; and, fifth, to introduce and provide for clear civil enforcement powers in regard to contraventions of the proposed Bill.

I am sorry to interrupt Ms Teehan, but we try to keep the opening statements to about five minutes. I note Ms Teehan intends to move to cover the heads of the Bill in the next part of her statement, so we should be able to cover that adequately in the discussion. I thank Ms Teehan. I call Ms Collier and ask her to keep her statement to about five minutes. To have a synopsis of her statement would greatly assist us.

Ms Rosemary Collier

I am the head of heritage services and capital works delivery at the Office of Public Works, OPW. I am joined by my colleague, Ken Moore, who is the principal officer for the national monuments division.

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear and to provide some input to this process. I hope the views I will offer on behalf of the commissioners will help inform the committee's consideration of the issues involved from our point of view. I know the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department representatives will have given the committee a comprehensive and broad-ranging analysis of the Bill from their particular perspective, so I will confine my remarks to the OPW remit and the issues that concern us most directly. Though we have a critical role in these matters, and have some considerable longevity as an organisation working in the heritage conservation area, we do not have the broad heritage responsibilities that the Department has. I will, therefore, aim not to stray into areas that I know the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, and his officials may have already addressed with the committee.

The involvement of the commissioners in the protection of national monuments goes back a considerable period. The first group of monuments taken into State care were the structures at the Rock of Cashel in 1874. Subsequently, a significant number of sites were added to the list and, today, the OPW is responsible for the care of almost 1,000 monuments at 768 locations. This includes sites that are directly owned by the State, as well as properties that are in guardianship, that is to say, they are privately held but have been entrusted to State care in perpetuity. They range from megalithic tombs of the neolithic period to medieval churches and castles, industrial mills and historic buildings of more recent times.

This estate does not represent the entirety of national monuments in Ireland. Many structures and sites around the country that are designated as national monuments are in private ownership and where the commissioners have no involvement. This is an important distinction and can cause confusion where there is a misperception that the commissioners are responsible for monuments generally throughout the country when, in fact, our remit is strictly defined.

From the earliest point, it has been clear that one of the core functions of the commissioners is to ensure the preservation of the monuments in its care, and this was a singular focus in the 1930 legislation. Though there was mention of opening monuments to the public in the 1930 Act, we should note it was not a central theme at that time, and I will return to this aspect of public engagement with national monuments more directly later in my remarks.

In the modern era, since the departmental forerunner to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage was created in the mid-1990s, the commissioners have undertaken an explicitly executive role, caring for national monuments in State care and working in tandem with the Minister and our colleagues in the Department. The commissioners, therefore, have a client relationship with the Department to look after the interests of the national monuments estate of which they are guardians or own.

The commissioners are explicitly tasked to look after the day-to-day job of physically protecting and conserving the monuments in their care and opening a number of them to the public as visitor attractions. While we are, therefore, the body responsible for national monuments in State care, on the spot, it is also true to say that responsibility for national monuments in OPW care is split between the Commissioner of Public Works and the Department which has statutory responsibility for the ministerial consent process, for example, and performs the core legislative role in relation to archaeology. The Department, therefore, has primary responsibility at Government level for the broad protection of heritage and is the senior body nationally that oversees the sector. In this role, it is the main sponsor of the current Bill and we in the OPW are a key State stakeholder and actor.

I will now address some of the principal provisions of the Bill and how they relate to the OPW. The Bill provides that funds relating to the enacted Bill are to be provided to the Department by the Oireachtas and a similar provision is made as regards the commissioners. In addition, provision is made to allow the Minister grant funds to the commissioners. Currently, the commissioners are funded through Vote 13 for the conservation, maintenance, operation and presentation of heritage sites in their care. This means we are granted resources for staff wages, materials and maintenance costs related to the upkeep of sites in our care. We are also allocated funds for the wages of staff and other operational costs related to those sites that have a significant visitor operation.

We are not, however, directly funded for the larger elective conservation projects we undertake specifically in the national monuments estate and we have to plan carefully for these. We are also not funded for new visitor infrastructure such as visitor buildings, car parks and toilets. Funding for these needs had been, in the last formal rearrangement of the respective responsibilities between the Department and OPW in 2003 to 2004, intended to be channelled through the Department, and the measure in the Bill gives that understanding legislative effect. I would add we have an excellent working relationship with our colleagues in the Department and we work closely on the matters of capital funding for the national monument estate.

In recent years, the commissioners’ funding for national monuments has been supplemented by additional moneys from Fáilte Ireland. Welcome though these have been, it is clearly the case these resources from Fáilte Ireland can only be for visitor projects and cannot be applied to core conservation works.

While referring to funding, I should also mention the rural regeneration and development funding channel that has emerged in recent years. The OPW, like other public bodies, is eligible to apply and has been successful in some applications to date. Again, this has made funding available for visitor facilities rather than conservation works. Other external funding opportunities are also available through various EU programmes that are designed to support initiatives in cultural heritage. We will remain alive to the possibilities these present.

The part of the Bill dealing with monuments is a major part of the legislation and covers a range of core matters, including a system for the protection of newly discovered archaeological sites, a single register of monuments and management by local authorities or the commissioners of registered monuments in the ownership or guardianship of a local authority or the Minister, as the case may be. The commissioners welcome the creation of a single register of monuments and we believe it would clarify a considerable amount of confusion as to the status of a broad range of sites throughout the country. We are clear about the status of sites in our own care but acknowledge the value of this measure to address the lack of clarity surrounding a multiplicity of sites not in State care throughout the country.

The preservation role for sites in State care, by either the commissioners or local authorities, has always been understood, of course, particularly historically at the time of the original 1930 Act. However, over time, this has been obscured somewhat by the different arrangements that have arisen since. The new Bill, as proposed, gives the commissioners’ management regime a stronger legislative basis that is more reflective of the existing operating framework and better recognises the position of the commissioners under the arrangements. I will not continue with that point. The committee has the remainder of my note on it.

Part of the proposed Bill relates to the treatment of world heritage sites in domestic law. The 1972 Convention Concerning the Protection of World Cultural and Natural Heritage was ratified by Ireland in 1992 without the enactment of any domestic implementing legislation. This Bill will give the term "world heritage site" a legal basis in law, for the first time, thus strengthening the legal standing of the use of the term in county development plans, as adopted by planning authorities. The adoption of development plan objectives is one of the principal means by which management plans for the current world heritage sites in the State are implemented, and the commissioners rely on them significantly at the two world heritage sites for which we are responsible, Brú na Bóinne and Sceilg Mhichíl.

In discussing world heritage sites, I should perhaps point out that the commissioners have no formal statutory role in the designation of sites. The Bill provides for appropriate public consultation processes to be put in place before nominating further world heritage sites. This is designed to ensure future designations are done on a partnership approach with the full involvement and commitment of local communities. Recognising that the commissioners manage many of the most significant heritage landscapes around the country and have a long record of managing the two world heritage landscapes, we anticipate working closely with the Department in any future processes and will seek to make a positive contribution wherever possible.

A provision in the current legislation requires ministerial consent to all works at or near a national monument. This provision applies equally to monuments in the care of the commissioners and, currently, we must apply to the Department through the normal channels where qualifying works are contemplated. The time required for a consent process can vary and is determined by the complexity of the proposals. The Department may seek additional design information, engineering reports etc. There are provisions in the Bill to rationalise the licence system and reduce the regulatory burden somewhat, including a provision to exempt certain works at registered monuments. As users of the system and familiar as we are with some of the practical issues involved in meeting the necessary measures to protect monuments, the commissioners welcome these provisions and hope they will streamline our work considerably.

I have, in this short contribution, focused on a small number of matters of direct relevance to the commissioners at the Office of Public Works. I am conscious that the broader responsibility for the Bill lies with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage and I am sure a fuller range of issues will be addressed by him and his officials. I am happy, however, if members of the committee wish to engage in any supplementary discussions and I hope I can be helpful to them in their consideration of these matters.

Mr. Brian Keaney

I thank the committee for inviting the Irish Planning Institute to be with it today. I am vice-president of the Irish Planning Institute and I will do everything I can to assist the committee with the views of planning professionals regarding the revised general scheme of the monuments and archaeological heritage Bill.

The Irish Planning Institute is the all-island professional body representing planners engaged in physical and environmental planning in Ireland. Our mission is to advance planning in the interest of the common good by serving, improving and promoting the planning profession. We are the largest professional membership body for spatial planners operating on this island. Our members work throughout the planning system in planning consultancies and authorities, semi-State organisations, An Bord Pleanála, the Office of the Planning Regulator, and central government.

The institute wishes to raise the following points in our opening statement. We strongly support the principle enshrined in head 3(1)(d), performance of functions, that the "responsibility for the protection of historic heritage is, as a resource of benefit to all, shared by all". Those who may be permitted to remove or interfere with historical heritage should, in the normal course, bear the costs of any recording or protective work necessitated by or associated with such removal or interference.

This issue can often arise in the context of planning permissions where a site of archaeological potential is involved and conditions are imposed requiring the developer to carry out an archaeological investigation or excavation or monitoring under licence. Sometimes an argument is made by a developer that the cost of complying with such a condition is onerous or, for example, if an archaeological monument such as a portion of town wall, has to be retained within the development, that it may make the development in question non-viable and that, therefore, the cost should be borne by the State. The institute believes the imposition of such conditions by planning authorities is appropriate and developers should conform to this principle. The scheme should make it explicit that the imposition of such conditions, whereby the cost falls on the owner or developer, is within the principles of the Bill and is therefore specifically approved.

The institute suggests that under head 9, establishment of register of monuments, any prescribed monument the Minister has entered into the register of monuments should, notwithstanding anything in the planning and development Acts, be deemed to be a protected structure in the relevant development plan. This measure would deal with the anomaly that currently occurs where the sole means by which a structure is included in the register of protected structures in a development plan is by a vote of the elected members of the planning authority.

The institute is aware that structures deemed to be part of the archaeological or architectural heritage by the Minister are not included in the register of protected structures. This can sometimes be attributed to opposition on the part of the owners of such structures to the limitations on exempted development and-or additional costs, if the structures are to be altered or demolished, that arise if their properties are protected structures. The IPI considered these objections invalid in the context of the policy set out in head 3(1)(d). The IPI suggests that in line with the intention of the scheme, this anomaly should be closed.

In head 13, regarding exemption for certain works to monuments with general protection, it is not clear if the exemption for a licence is provided for in the head where it refers to works being "regulated under another statutory system" applies to areas of archaeological protection or works to protected structures under the Planning and Development Acts. The institute suggests the Department should review and enhance this in the full Bill in order to avoid misinterpretation or weakening the thrust of the scheme.

Head 20 relates to the application of the Local Government (Sanitary Services) Act 1964. The provision whereby the Minister "must be consulted" appears to be very weak. If a notice is served under dangerous buildings legislation, in relation to a monument, the institute believes the Minister should be empowered to prohibit its demolition unless the local authority can prove to the Minister's satisfaction, or perhaps with provision for appeal to the High Court, that maintenance, or protection works, which would prevent the demolition or part demolition of the monument are not reasonable or proportionate, or that demolition is otherwise necessary in the public interest. The stipulations contained in section 79 of the Planning and Development Act, which already controls or sets limits on dangerous buildings legislation in relation to protected structures, should apply in a more significant manner in relation to monuments.

Clarification on the mechanism stipulated in head 30 is needed as it is currently unclear whether the Minister is to be given the power simply to propose world heritage property, leaving it up to the planning authority to incorporate such sites or properties into development plans, or if it is intended that the Minister is to designate such world heritage property, and thereby that such sites or properties are automatically included in the relevant development plans. This is analogous to the Minister proposing structures of architectural heritage interest through the national inventory of architectural heritage to planning authorities, but such properties not necessarily being included in the register of protected structures in some development plans, as the power to do so is left to the elected members of the authorities. The institute therefore proposes that, where the Minister designates world heritage property under head 30, the planning authority shall include such sites or properties in the relevant development plan, either by way of a variation, if the plan has been in force for less than four years, or at the next review of the plan concerned after that period.

I thank the Chair for the opportunity to come before the committee today. I will endeavour to respond to members' questions. However, if any additional information is required, arising from this meeting, we will be pleased to provide that information in a prompt manner.

I am in Leinster House 2000. I thank the Heritage Trust, the OPW and the Irish Planning Institute for giving us their time today, for their submissions and for the work that they do in this area. It is vast. This general scheme is ambitious. It seeks to update the laws and regulations and to streamline processes. I am interested in hearing from the witnesses what success looks like for their organisations when the legislation is updated. I have heard what they have said about the streamlining and strengthening of the process and registrations. How do they feel the updating of the legislation will help to protect in a proactive way? What is their view on the proposed penalties included in the general scheme?

Ms Virginia Teehan

I will defer in the main to my colleague, Mr. Doyle. We welcome the rationalisation of all the disparate legislation into one Bill. We have a concern about the oversight of the legislation and the advisory role, particularly the absence of clarity about that advisory role. The Heritage Council previously had a role. It is not clear what our role will be. For brevity, I will defer to Mr. Doyle to discuss the penalties.

Mr. Ian Doyle

The penalties are set out in the heads of Bill. They will be fleshed out in greater detail as the Bill progresses. It is important that there is an opportunity for civil enforcement proceedings. There need not always be recourse to criminal courts. I was checking my email on the way in this morning from someone in County Meath asking about a preservation order on their land. I know from the tone of the email that the sheer array of protective mechanisms is confusing. One good outcome from this for heritage will be having a more clear-cut and understandable model. At the moment, we have preservation orders, the register of historic monuments, the record of protected structures, national monuments, temporary preservation orders and guardianship. It is quite a mish-mash. A rationalised scheme of protection that people can understand will be important. As this is introduced, since it is complex and detailed legislation as the Senator says, there will need to be publicity, awareness and communication about the changes.

Ms Rosemary Collier

We concur with our colleagues in the Heritage Council about those provisions in the Bill bringing clarity. As I said in my opening statement, we are clear about what is in the remit of the commissioners. There is confusing about the designation and status of sites and maybe about where responsibility lies. We would welcome the same provisions in the Bill as the Heritage Council. That clarity will be important for the sector and citizens.

I included a note in my opening statement about the day-to-day operations which we think will be clarified for the commissioners. Under the Bill, the operation of national monuments owned by or in the guardianship of the Minister will be the statutory responsibility of the commissioner. This means that the commissioners will have clear powers and a specific role under the Bill. This contrasts with the position under the current legislation where there is no express reference to the commissioners and where day-to-day operations are technically vested in the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. The commissioners are clearly vested with statutory responsibility in the Bill. That clarity is welcome.

Regarding fines or the fixed payment notice system, we will be interested to see how the Bill progresses. This is a new provision and we need to work through what that means and how it can be made operational in our work. We will be interested to see how it progresses. It will take us some time to work through the implications of that and how best to implement it. We feel that if it is judiciously applied, it could be useful in the protection of the monuments. There is a civic desire for protection of our national heritage and how we want visitors and the public to engage with our national heritage. If it is applied judiciously, it will serve that function.

There are provisions in the Bill relating to the powers of the Minister to offer guidance about environmental impact assessments and historic heritage, as well as guidance to agencies about historic heritage. The clarification about that and the relevant powers will be useful. All boats are rising for heritage with these standards and the quality of guidance that agencies have to work to and be mindful of when caring for and engaging with our national heritage estate. Those are the key points from the perspective of the Office of Public Works.

Mr. Brian Keaney

We are a professional planning institute, so our interface with archaeological and heritage monuments is through the planning system and the planning and development Acts. Like other speakers, we welcome the clarity offered by this proposed legislation. In terms of the day-to-day work of the planning system, there are obviously two sides to that. There is the plan-making side and then there is also the development management side of the coin as well. What the legislation does is it provides streamlining, and the streamlining and understanding of that is very helpful. From a policy point of view, what is particularly beneficial is the definitions, and the role of the Minister in terms of the register of monuments and the designation of world cultural sites. That is very helpful. As part of the development plan process, we often find at local government level in many cases, as I outlined in my opening statement, there are anomalies between what is included on various registers and what ends up in the development plan. Again, they are public documents. Development plans are contracts between the local authority in question and the community, the elected members and the executive. Clarity around all of that is very helpful.

From the development management side, when planning applications come in, whether it is for small-scale domestic development in urban centres or large infrastructural projects that might go through rural areas and may have impacts on areas of archaeological sensitivity, clarity around issues like the principle of costs and the burden of that cost and how that is applied is important. It is often put forward that schemes may be viable or unviable if they encounter archaeological heritage and the cost of recording and monitoring that is an unwelcome burden. At the same time, it loses sight of the value of our heritage and archaeology. It provides clarity regarding the importance of that issue.

As the previous speaker from the OPW referenced, the environmental impact assessment is especially helpful. Legislation is changing all the time and sometimes it is informed by case law as well, so we welcome greater clarity and understanding about how issues such as natural heritage and archaeology are dealt with as part of the planning management process.

Deputy Higgins has indicated that I can go first. I thank the witnesses for their opening statements, which I very much appreciate.

I want to pose questions on two very distinct and separate issues I encounter. The first is that since the 1990s, there are two fantastic groups in the Chapelizod area, namely, the Chapelizod Tidy Towns group and the Chapelizod Heritage Society. The person who is central to both of those groups is a man called Peter Kavanagh. He has been doing extraordinary work on heritage and the preservation of monuments and history in the Chapelizod area. One of the things they have been attempting to do for the past 25 years relates to the preservation and care of a 5,000 year old cyst or cromlech that is just inside the walls of the Phoenix Park at the Chapelizod pedestrian gate. This was unearthed in the 1800s. It is documented and there is a large model of this monument in the Phoenix Park visitors' centre. When it was unearthed in the 1800s, two human remains were found under it as well as grave articles that are in the National Museum. The visitors' centre has a mock-up of the monument and a history of it but the item itself remains unpreserved and unlisted. It is not cared for other than the work done by the heritage society itself, and it is not entitled to intervene where there are splits and cracks from frost damage. People possibly think it is a picnic table when they see it because it is like a small dolmen, which is how I describe it in my ignorance. Here we have something that is of considerable heritage value and is a national monument, yet it is sitting there and deteriorating year on year and not being preserved. What does the Bill do for that and how does it support the 25 years of advocacy on the part of Peter Kavanagh?

The second issue is the exemption for religious sites when it comes to monuments and structures. No one is overseeing the protection of religious sites or religious institutions. Will the proposed Bill cover modern sites such as residential institutions, industrial schools and Magdalen laundries, particularly as such places certainly reach the threshold of interest? There may be structures that are of archaeological merit but also within them are graves, both marked and unmarked. The proposition is that graves should be included in the inventory of national monuments. Whoever wishes can answer those questions.

The witnesses can respond to the question on the Chapelizod picnic table first.

Ms Rosemary Collier

The site is located in the Phoenix Park, which is the subject if its own legislation, namely, the Phoenix Park Act 1925. I was not aware that the site is not designated as a national monument. We always understood it to be a very important piece of archaeological heritage.

That may be my misunderstanding, but in the documentation and books on it that the group has written, it is seeking for the monument to be at the very least preserved.

Ms Rosemary Collier

We can follow that up. First, it is cared for in the context of the Phoenix Park Act. Second, the Phoenix Park has more than 1,000 years of archaeological history on the site. It is an archaeological complex in and of itself. We work very closely with the National Monuments Service in the Department on the archaeological requirements and consents at the Phoenix Park whenever we are doing works. The park's team will care for it in the context of the legislation that covers the Phoenix Park. I do not think it is true to say that it is not cared for at all.

In response to Senator Seery Kearney's question on the designation, that is a matter for the Minister. It is the Minister who decides whether a monument is registered as a prescribed monument or if it is to be given special protection and therefore it becomes a national monument and is cared for by the OPW. We can follow that up and clarify the designation status there if that is helpful.

My question is what this proposed legislation does for that. In terms of the monument not being cared for, there is a certain maintenance of it and a rather unsympathetic block of concrete underneath it that is not particularly sympathetic to the structure. My question is more about what this proposed Bill does. If we have anomalies in the context of different items of legislation governing it, is it likely to fall between two stools, namely, between the OPW and the Phoenix Park Act and the former's role in the Phoenix Park versus this proposed legislation? How do the two meet up?

Ms Rosemary Collier

My understanding is that under the provisions in this proposed Bill, the Minister can decide to list it as a monument that is deserving of special protection. It would be a matter for the Minister and his officials to clarify how that can be achieved and whether it can be achieved through this proposed legislation. My understanding is that it can be achieved, but it is a matter for the Minister, and the process in that regard is also a matter for the Minister.

That is great. I thank Ms Collier.

Was the second question to the Heritage Council?

Yes, or to whoever wishes to comment.

Mr. Ian Doyle

The question was about religious sites being exempted, but just before we get on to that, we love to hear about active community groups like the one Senator Seery Kearney talks about. We have a very good grant-giving relationship with them. When we hear about groups like that, which are campaigning and working for heritage, we think it is brilliant. That is fantastic.

In terms of religious sites, under the existing legislation, religious sites that are in use are generally not seen as national monuments.

The State stayed clear of religious sites in use during the formulation of all the national monuments legislation. What has changed since is that the Planning and Development Act 2000 set up the system of protected structures so the vast majority of the churches and religious buildings, and their curtilage, including burial sites, would be considered to be protected structures. That is covered under the record-of-protected-structures facility through county development plans. That has its own system of controls, grants and supports.

Whether the extension of coverage through this proposed Bill would help is a matter for discussion because one would effectively be increasing the protection and what some would see as red tape with respect to a monument that is already protected. I would argue that the Planning and Development Act already protects that form of heritage through the protected-structures system.

I will take the next slot, which is the Green Party slot. My question, on development plans, is for Mr. Keaney. Does he believe there is enough detail in development plans and even local area plans highlighting structures of archaeological interest and even protected structures? Sometimes I find that county development plans try to fit too much information onto one map, which means that the position is not shown clearly. Would it be beneficial to show archaeological sites of interest on maps at zoning level?

Mr. Brian Keaney

The current convention for development plans is to include both designations for archaeology and also the information from the record of protected structures. The archaeology involves national designation through the Minister whereas the information on the record of protected structures can come from various sources. The development plan, which has a six-year life, is made by the elected members and the information is collated every four years. Once the review process starts, there is always an exercise of reviewing the record of protected structures in particular. It is fair to say that zones of archaeological potential, as they are generally referred to in development plans, do not change very significantly, but any changes are assessed as part of the review process. The challenge relates to public access to the included information. All local authorities produce their information digitally online, so that information is available. However, the Chairman is correct in that part of the issue with local area plans and development plans is that a lot of material goes into them, meaning challenges arise over the level of detail.

A development plan is effectively a summary of policies, designations and so forth. More information sits beneath that. In a way, the function of the development plan is to raise awareness concerning changes to our natural and built environment, including through public and private sector interventions and projects. It is really a question of identifying potential sensitivities if sites are to be developed. That is one side of it.

The second side, which is sometimes missed, is that the role of a development plan or local area plan is to identify projects at local level, maybe along the lines referred to by one of the previous speakers. In this regard, community groups, etc., may be promoting the preservation or conservation of a local archaeological site or protected structure. Again, it is a matter of achieving consensus. The planning process is a democratic one and the development plans and local area plans are adopted by the elected members. When it comes to funding opportunities for projects through LEADER or other such funds, particularly where community groups are involved, the recognition in planning documents of a site or monument identified for a community project as part of what may be a more comprehensive conservation project for a town or village is powerful. That is the value of the designations and their role within the planning system.

My next question is for the OPW. It is possible to ask the Minister to take a monument into guardianship if it is on one's private land. Does that mean it goes to the OPW? What is the extent of the OPW's responsibility? Is it purely about maintenance and not about publicising or managing access or the public-interest aspect?

Ms Rosemary Collier

Conservation and preservation is the core principle. If the Minister decides that a particular structure deserves special protection, it is designated and brought into care. We would hope to have an input into that process and to be part of the considerations. It is fundamentally a matter of the conservation and preservation of the heritage structure.

Some properties in guardianship have limited public access but the vast majority have none. In fact, a private owner can designate whether he or she wants to provide a right of way. Of all the properties in private ownership that have been in guardianship to date, the vast majority do not have public access. However, the owners have given right-of-way access to the Commissioners of Public Works to undertake the conservation works.

I invite my colleague Mr. Moore to contribute at this point because he looks after the national monuments estate and will have some good, relevant examples.

Ms Collier indicated that there are probably a thousand monuments in the OPW's care. Is it currently provided for that individuals can ask the Minister to take a monument into guardianship?

Ms Rosemary Collier

They can.

Roughly how many of the thousand fall into this category?

Ms Rosemary Collier

Two hundred are privately owned but in the guardianship of the Minister and cared for and conserved by the OPW.

Mr. Kenneth Moore

Approximately 600 are in State ownership. Guardianship, as Ms Collier has said, always comes with a provision whereby the commissioners have access for maintenance and conservation. As the Chairman will appreciate, many of the monuments are in the middle of landholdings, and landowners are a little concerned about throwing the gates open to the public because this generally brings its own problems. That is the current position. It is primarily about conservation.

Throwing open the gates, as Mr. Moore mentioned, and inviting the public to monuments can have an impact on them. The proposed Bill refers to education and publicity. There is a fine line between generating civic pride in, and an understanding of, a monument and turning it into a big tourist attraction, because the latter can be detrimental. This is a matter I would like to return to in the second round of questions, having regard to the Heritage Council, in particular.

I thank the witnesses. I have two questions. The first is for the delegates from the Heritage Council. There is a key point in their opening statement that they did not reach:

However, the spaces between monuments and the area surrounding monuments or their 'setting' has proven more difficult to protect. In some cases, the setting of a monument, whether it be a visual connection with another monument or with a natural feature (e.g., a point on the horizon or a hilltop) is integral to its understanding and meaning. This part of archaeological heritage management has proven more difficult than protecting the actual footprint of the monument.

Is that provided for in existing legislation or sufficiently? If it is not in the legislation before us, where is it addressed? What are the delegates' views on that?

Mr. Ian Doyle

The point we made in our opening is that it is a very complex area to address in primary legislation. There is a facility in one of the heads — the specific one is mentioned in our written submission — for the Minister to produce statutory guidance on a matter like this that a planning authority would have to take note of.

There are various mechanisms for this. In one of the heads, the definition of “monument” includes a reference to the land around it, so that is a start. There are other elements of the existing national monuments legislation that have not been all that successful in doing this. In the 1987 Act, there is a reference to archaeological areas. That was not really tried, however. The Planning and Development Act 2000 has a clause for landscape conservation areas but that has not been successful. That tells its own story. It is a difficult issue to address through the secondary legislation but it is an issue that the Heritage Council has been saying is quite important. As stated earlier, this is something we would like to see teased out and addressed through the statutory guidance element of this proposed legislation.

That is very helpful. One of the key points of the Valletta convention is around the importance of archaeological landscapes. Is that something that should be referenced in the Bill?

Mr. Ian Doyle

It could be. The setting of a monument is touched on. We have to remember these are just the heads of the Bill. We will see more detail as it evolves. I suspect there is more thinking to be done on this. At its time, Valletta was a very important convention for Ireland to sign up to. I would argue we are probably working in accordance with the vast majority of the Valletta convention, so we are in good stead in terms of archaeological practice in terms of Valletta as is.

The matter relating to landscapes is important and needs to be addressed.

Mr. Ian Doyle

It could be stronger. We also have a national landscapes strategy which the Government devised in 2015. Greater cognisance of and reference to that would also be a help.

It has been a difficult area to address and it is quite complex. Will Mr. Doyle elaborate on why that is and what the issues are around that? A monument is quite defined whereas the landscape is less defined. As a result, it is always going to be difficult to address the matter. However, it is important to address it.

Mr. Ian Doyle

Ireland has the signed the European landscapes convention, so that is an important dimension to this. Ultimately, we cannot freeze landscape and landscape continues to evolve. We can protect the important elements of a specific monument - we can repoint it, we can cut the grass, we can look after the interpretive signage and so on - but not the immediate area around it or whether it is in alignment on a hilltop. What has worked in some cases is in the context of protected views in county development plans. This has been important. However, that wider setting of protecting monuments internationally is an issue that heritage needs to think more about.

Ms Virginia Teehan

To add to that, this is important for us and we consider it important. The implementation of the national landscapes strategy is relevant here and relevant to the wider work of this committee. Historic landscapes are vital and they are now threatened with climate change and climate adaptation. A consideration and a discussion about that may be of value.

The heads of the Bill require further teasing out, as Mr. Doyle has identified, but, equally, the relationships with local authorities and the planning processes may allow increasing flexibility to recognise the significance of landscape, the context of monuments, their setting and their protection in light of climate change.

In terms of the general scheme at this point, without referencing the Heritage Council in terms of the advisory role which has been highlighted, I think it is very important there is some oversight and potential counterbalance of the ministerial power on this. Ministers and public representatives can come under a lot of pressure for infrastructure to be delivered within a particular timeframe and, at times, that could mean very valuable heritage getting destroyed, which everybody could regret five or ten years later but it is then too late. Having that oversight is beneficial for everybody. In addition, the level of interest in heritage can vary from Minister to Minister whereas, in the long term, everybody values it. That is very important. In a previous session, it was suggested that the National Monuments Advisory Council should be set up again. Do the witnesses have a view on that? If that is not done, how does the Heritage Council incorporate reaching out to that expertise?

Ms Virginia Teehan

We have sought legal advice on the general scheme. It appears that the functions we inherited from the former National Monuments Advisory Council are not replicated in this legislation and it is unclear how this will be worked out. We are recommending and suggesting that our functions are not undermined because, as the Deputy said, we are an independent voice in heritage.

I apologise for being late. One of the joys of being here is being dragged from pillar to post. I have not read all of the opening statements but I heard some of the comments made. I have dealt with the OPW, the Heritage Council and other bodies over the last number of years in regard to some high-profile sites. I will not dwell on Moore Street today, so they need not worry. That is a battle for another day and it is before An Bord Pleanála at the moment.

I was interested in what Deputy Cian O'Callaghan said about the contexts of national monuments, and it is not just that historic landscapes are threatened by climate change but also by human activity, as they have always been threatened. There are periods in our history and society where it is not just the farmer but also the State that has destroyed some of our monuments, or at least the context in which those monuments exist.

There is the question of what happens in the event of the destruction of a monument. Is it appropriate to reinstate or restore them? I know that, for example, with certain architectural buildings in the city, people have been forced to rebuild them as was, and Archer’s Garage would be an example. What happens to a monument that has been destroyed, for example, a ring fort? Do we have the powers or is it desirable to reinstate a ring fort which a builder or farmer, either purposely or unbeknownst to themselves, has interfered with or destroyed?

In the previous session, it was mentioned that there are 130,000 national monuments, which is a huge number, and most of them are undiscovered or unavailable to the public. If we take it there are 1,000 in the care of the OPW, how many are in the care of local authorities? I presume the rest are on lands belonging to individuals who try to care for them as much as they can, despite the challenge that poses. If we designate sites as national monuments, does that involve an additional liability in terms of insurance, given there is a duty to care for, preserve and protect a national monument? If people declare they have a fothrach or a ruin on their land, whether it might be prehistoric, pre-Christian or of whatever designation, they have a duty to protect it. Climate change was mentioned but there is also the point that something like animal movement can dislodge a brick. We are facing into a storm in the morning. Is there a liability on the owner of a national monument, which in many cases is not the State, if something happens to it? Do they have to restore it or fix it up? Do they have to spend money? That is one of the big challenges. I believe many in the farming community in particular are loath to take on the onerous task of protecting monuments.

They would love to have that duty but it can be an onerous task.

I can come back to anything else. I hope our guests will be able to answer some of those for me.

Are those for the Heritage Council?

Some are to the Heritage Council. The OPW might have a view on the number of monuments in the care of the local authorities.

Ms Virginia Teehan

We do not have the exact details on the number.

More generally, on the ethical issues the Deputy raised about conservation and restoration of sites, it is a very complex issue and professional conservators differ. In general, when a monument is destroyed and damaged, reestablishing the context of the monument, which is frequently where its value lies, is sometimes very difficult, if not impossible. An architectural site is more tangible sometimes and particularly architectural monuments that go back in time. I will defer to Mr. Doyle but recent practice, and it is something the Heritage Council is becoming more engaged in, is around the impact of climate change and how we as heritage professionals provide advice and guidance around it. We develop programmes of recording monuments before destruction happens. Emerging technologies allow this in very novel ways. There is the use of virtual reality technologies in some countries to record sites that are vulnerable, especially in coastal areas that are being eroded. This is something in the future where a voice is important to allow this sort of activity to happen so future generations have at least a knowledge, if not an experience, of what was there before. Natural disasters will increase. Our climate is changing. We need to be prepared for that change. I defer to Mr. Doyle on the details around the liabilities as he may have more accurate information than I do.

Mr. Ian Doyle

I thank the Deputy. Head 3 is entitled "Performance of functions". There are two very interesting principles in it. The first is (1)(b) which states: "the first option to be considered should be the protection in situ of historic heritage ...". In other words, leave it as it is. (1)(c) then speaks somewhat to the Deputy's point, in that "... [the] removal or alteration of historic heritage should be accompanied by all necessary and appropriate recording of such heritage". The approach there is that if something is to be removed, you try to offset or compensate by recording it and by increasing knowledge and understanding of it.

The Deputy is right in that the vast majority of monuments in our landscape are privately-owned. They are in privately-owned fields. What the State and local authorities own are merely the tip of the iceberg. The duty or liability on owners to maintain them is very limited at the moment. It is more on the basis of do no harm. Normal wear and tear, erosion and weathering generally are not the responsibility of owners. To support owners, we have for a number of years put in place a system of community archaeologists across the country. That is Clare, Galway, Sligo, south Dublin, Dublin city, Roscommon, Clare, Donegal and Wicklow this year. They work with farmers to give really clear, simple advice on managing monuments and trying to minimise damage. That kind of approach goes a long way with the farming community.

I thank the council officials.

I am going to move on to-----

What about the OPW and my query on the number of monuments?

We are up to eight and a half minutes there. I ask that the Deputy be brief.

It is only about the number.

The OPW may briefly respond. We can come back to this on the second round if the Deputy wishes.

Ms Rosemary Collier

I can be very brief.

Ms Collier should go ahead then.

Ms Rosemary Collier

I concur with Ms Teehan's assessment of the ethical issues relating to conservation. It is an exceptionally complex area and there are differing views. With our work at the OPW, there would be instances where, for example, high crosses have been taken out of situ, taken out of their context, preserved and brought to indoor locations. More recently, the bells at Howth have been brought into the care of the National Museum because for their protection removing them from context is appropriate. There are scenarios where taking the national monument out of its context can be done. Again, it is about the process around the assessment of that, the recording of it, how we share the information around that and how we perpetuate the context for future audiences and generations to be able to appreciate.

On national monument sites we care for, we have many instances of properties where the practice has been that how we have inherited them now is the extant value of the national monument site and to preserve and conserve that as we find it now is the principle around conservation. There will be community groups and differing views where people want to see full conservation or reinstatement and that is not possible with the structure. Conservation practice around those sites might suggest preserving and conserving them in the condition in which we find them. Trying to find the layers of the stories and telling the layers of those stories, interpreting it and continuing to record that is more valuable.

Climate impact assessment is now hugely important now with our national heritage. We have done a major project at Sceilg Mhichíl in terms of a detailed climate impact assessment there. Again, Ms Teehan referred to coastal and ocean sites that are particularly vulnerable. It is about the exercise of recording now and understanding the impacts and accepting also - and our colleagues in Historic Environment Scotland would be dealing with this issue hugely - that there are going to be some monuments we are going to lose to the forces of nature and that there is no holding this back. We have a number of forts in our coastal areas that are especially vulnerable. In Scotland they have lost particular sites already. Understanding climate impact, and doing as much as we can now to get ahead with the assessment is really important but also maybe that recording piece and understanding there are parts of what is happening with the climate crisis we will not be able to hold back and not be able to mitigate.

I thank Ms Collier. Deputy O'Donoghue is next.

Our guests are very welcome, again. My first point concerns conservation officers. We only have one in Limerick. That is Tom Cassidy. We also have Sarah McCutcheon. They are side by side. We have only half a clerical staff equivalent to assist them. How are we going to protect our heritage structures and national monuments if we only have one conservation officer dealing with certain sectors within our local authorities? Our guests have mentioned local authorities. I meet Mr. Cassidy on a regular basis and he is under severe pressure trying to get to all the monuments. He will also be retiring in a short number of years. I am afraid of losing what Mr. Cassidy has. We must bring it to somebody else who can carry it on, or more people, or an office. It is like what our guests were saying about recording the national monuments. We must record what is in these people's heads and the type of information someone like Mr. Cassidy has, and the experience he has so it lives on.

The biggest problem I see for Limerick at the moment is we do not have enough people involved in conservation. It has held up planning permissions and buildings being restored. I was at one during the week that has been held up for a number of years due to conservation. I love my heritage, as our guests probably know well. I love all the monuments that are there and think everything should be protected. However, the lack of investment in an awful lot of structures in Limerick is the cause of them going into disrepair and beyond repair, so they are not being protected. We might look at graveyards. There is no right of way to get to some graveyards in Limerick. There is a graveyard in Limerick where there is a gate that is in private ownership. You cannot get to your loved ones. They are historical graveyards that have been there for many generations but we cannot get the right of ways to get to them. There is also the repair of iconic buildings within the graveyards, and of the stone walls that have been there for hundreds of years. They are falling down. What of the repair of those stone structures? Where do we get the extra money for us to repair our structures?

If a building is protected or it is significant to the area, how do we get to a place where if the Heritage Council does not have the money to fix it, we can get somebody else who might want to fix it or repair it in such a way that it can be returned to the streetscape and minimise the conservation needed to save the building? An awful lot of buildings are falling down because they are listed. We can open them up again by retaining the facades and roof structures facing the street and redeveloping the back of them if it is not economically possible to repair them. I want to save our streetscapes, our national heritage and monuments that the public regards as iconic so that we can get everyone in to visit them.

I am also very concerned that there has been no investment in conservation officers and structures that are within the remit. It is through no fault of their own because they cannot get out to help these projects along with the workload they have. What can the Heritage Council do about that?

Ms Virginia Teehan

It is nice to see the Deputy again. I worked with Tom Cassidy when I worked in Limerick. We agree with the Deputy. We operate the heritage officer programme with the local authorities, the CCMA and the chief executives. It is one of the most successful heritage programmes. We would love to see heritage units established in local authorities. We fully respect the fact that local authorities have lots of demands on them but we experience what the Deputy experiences - an enthusiasm for, interest in and commitment to heritage. Mr. Doyle outlined the important role that community archaeologists play. We would like to see community archaeologists, conservation officers, archivists and other heritage professionals employed more fully throughout local authorities because they are all key players in heritage.

A bit of good news today is that we have opened a grant scheme called the heritage stewardship fund of almost €1 million. It applies specifically to heritage professionals working in local authorities and the wider public service because we are aware of the fact that they have very limited access to funding other than their budgets, and local authorities are stretched. This fund is to support those professionals in the protection of heritage and the conservation of vulnerable places, just as the Deputy has outlined. We could, and want, to do more and I hope the new policy, Heritage Ireland 2030, which I understand from colleagues in the Department is at an advanced stage, will support the development of more comprehensive heritage management networks across the country.

The Deputy has previously raised the issue of graveyards. We provide and have provided advice on graveyards for communities and provided grants for community groups through our community grant schemes for the protection of graveyards. It is very worthwhile for us because we see the benefit for both communities and a sense of place and respect for the generations who have gone before us. Head 27 provides a facility whereby the Minister may vest in local authorities burial grounds the status of which is not clearly resolved. Some of these are the historic grounds such as those relating to disestablishment of the Church of Ireland that may previously have been historically Roman Catholic grounds. There is an opaqueness around access to those grounds so this Bill is helpful in that regard.

In summary, we very much welcome the Deputy's comments because they chime very much with our own desires. The Heritage Council has benefitted considerably through a 40% increase in funding and an increase in staff in the past two years. We are very grateful to the Government for that support but we do need more.

I have one more question.

Is it for the IPI regarding protected structures?

We have seen how if Government or Departments want to get land, they can get it through a CPO. Is it possible for CPOs to be used to access national monuments and graveyards not owned by the Department? CPOs can be used for strategic projects so why can it not be done for our natural heritage and monuments? Can that be looked into?

I think the rules around CPOs are that they should be used if there is no alternative.

Yes, but in respect of many of the sites about which we are talking, if open dialogue has failed, at least with a CPO, the person who is losing the land would get money for what he or she is selling and the CPO would mean that there would be a balance. An awful lot of landholders are afraid of insurance if they mention that there is a national monument on their land to which the public wants access. The problem seems to be landowners' liability so they could come to an arrangement whereby they could either sell the land to the Department, which would take over the land, or a CPO could be sued to acquire the land. We could then get our people to our national monuments and, at the same time, protect farmers and landowners and take them out of the insurance loop.

That is probably a question we would put to the Department or the Minister who would be responsible for that.

Is the OPW looking to take on a greater number of national monuments? At the moment, 1,000 or so are mentioned. We can all list different ones in different areas that are in danger or are neglected. Is there a strategy to pursue the purchase through CPO or negotiation for additional national monuments given how small the number is? There is also the additional onus on the State to preserve and protect them once they have them so that is an additional cost. We are blessed with so many different sites in this country. Nobody expects the State to take over 130,000 sites, most of which, thankfully, are buried somewhere. We do not know their full extent so we do not want to take them over but it would be a pity if some work is not done with regard to the ones above ground about which people often speak.

This witnesses from the IPI raised the anomaly between the record of the protected structures and national monuments. Is it hoped that the new legislation will try to combine both in the one location so that those planning developments have one port of call and nobody can try to get away with something by saying they did not know it was a monument or the duties involved?

Ms Rosemary Collier

Under the current legislation and when this new Bill is brought through, the option will be open to the Minister with responsibility for heritage to designate a monument requiring special protection. It is then open to him or her to decide if it is of national significance from a cultural or archaeological perspective. In that scenario, it would fall to the Commissioners of Public Works to conserve and preserve that monument. That is the process we have worked and will continue to work to. There are provisions that it would be done in consultation. In assessing the significance of the monuments, the commissioners have a role and engage with the Department in that process but we would play our part downstream of the decision on the designation.

It is not that the commissioners are necessarily seeking to take a suite or cohort of monuments that need care. Deciding that they are of national significance and require that special protection and designation is a matter for the Minister. Care from the Commissioners of Public Works would follow. Given our current resources, we struggle to care for the sheer volume of sites under our remit. We have 29 island locations and more than 1,000 structures across 26 counties.

We have 1,200 staff working in heritage but we have a hugely geographically dispersed portfolio ranging from Neolithic sites right to more modern heritage structures. The resources we currently have would obviously need to be looked at in respect of additional responsibilities that might be assigned to the commissioners in respect of additional sites.

We engage with the process every year through the Estimates process and would make the case for that. It cascades or flows fundamentally from a Minister's designation, however, and then our role and statutory function is defined in the Bill. That is how it would come about.

Of course, we should be grateful for the protection of our national monuments and monuments generally. A diverse collection of organisations, people and communities right across the State protect our national heritage. They do great work with the Heritage Council and other stakeholders across the sector and we should be grateful to them. The State cannot do everything so a complex network and selection of organisations are involved. Our role would absolutely cascade from the statutory provisions in the Bill, however.

I thank Ms Collier. My second question was to the IPI.

Mr. Brian Keaney

Certainly, to respond to that, there is potentially an anomaly in the legislation at the moment whereby if the Minister was to enter a monument on to the register of monuments, our view is that it should automatically then go on to the record of protected structures because that ministerial designation is done at a national level. The anomaly is that at a local level, the record of protected structures and the function of putting buildings on or off lies with the elected members. It is fine that there is an exercise in subsidiarity there but I think there is a higher bar when it comes to ministerial designations.

For the avoidance of confusion, if the Minister was to designate a monument to be part of the register of monuments under his powers, that should automatically transfer via the Planning and Development Act 2000 and become part of the record of protected structures and, therefore, have that protection under the development plan of the relevant local authority.

I will go next to Senator Boyhan.

I thank the Chairman; apologies for being delayed. I welcome everyone, particularly Ms Virginia Teehan. Heritage Council representatives have appeared before us very rarely; there have been three outings. The council really is punching way above its weight and rightly so. I love the line in Ms Teehan's opening statement: "The Heritage Council remit is very broad." She is dead on. It is good to see that.

I will address the Heritage Council first. Ms Teehan talked about the importance of co-ordinating the Irish Walled Towns Network and working with local authorities, which I welcome. Not today, perhaps, but she might keep the committee abreast of that initiative because it is excellent.

She raised the issue of the Irish National Strategic Archaeological Research, INSTAR+, programme. It is a very significant body about which I knew nothing and, therefore, I got my phone out and googled INSTAR+. I learned very quickly that its remit is cultural identity, territories and boundaries, resources, technology and craft, exchange and trade, religion and ritual, environment and climate change, landscapes and settlement and archaeology and contemporary society. That was set out in a press statement by the Minister of State, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, who welcomed its establishment at a cost of €2.2 million. Again, it does not have to be today but Ms Teehan might elaborate on that given that she raised it in her submission. The committee would benefit from knowing a bit more about that project in the context of where we are. I will leave it at that in terms of my questions to the council but, again, I am delighted to see its representatives before the committee.

The OPW is an amazing organisation. I know a lot about it and it does amazing things. I live around the corner from Monkstown Castle, which is one of its responsibilities. Everyone thinks the council does a great job and I keep reminding them it is done by the OPW. The OPW sign fell down, however, and no one knows it is that organisation but it is the best kept space around where I live. I want to pass that on to the people who look after Monkstown Sastle in Baile na Manach.

I take on board what Ms Collier said about resources; that is critically important. On page 7 of her submission, under the heading of World Heritage Convention, Ms Collier said: "In discussing world heritage sites, I should perhaps point out that the Commissioners have no formal statutory role in the designation of sites" in the provision of this Bill. What is her view on this? Would she like to have a role? Who would she like to see having a greater role in that regard? One issue is that the OPW has no resources but if it had the resources, would it like to take that on? She raised that in her submission; it is really important.

There is also the issue of Part 10, implementation and enforcement, and this sense of uniformity about penalties. Everyone is singing off the same hymn sheet regarding legislation and the enforcement and implementation of fines. Ms Collier might touch on that.

Finally, the IPI is 100% on the ball. It is an amazing organisation and I compliment Mr. Keaney on the ongoing training and outreach initiatives he does on behalf of the institute. They are particularly good. I have attended many of the conferences and have asked him to keep this committee informed of its programme. It is really interesting and we may take up opportunities to go and participate.

The record of protected structures is a reserved function of the elected members of the 31 local authorities and rightly so, and it is about subsidiarity. They also have local knowledge, however, which is really important. If we want to be stakeholders with these local authority members, we need to work closely with and empower them. That is good.

In the case of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, of which I am a former member and which I know best, it does track and map the monuments on its development plan maps. It has a list; I am not sure if it is a complete one but it endeavours to be. We have many dolmens in the Dublin mountains and very rich marine heritage in Dún Laoghaire Harbour. I am not sure if there is an inconsistency but I am only familiar with that authority and that is a model that works well. Perhaps the idea that Mr. Keaney suggested is one we might take on board because it makes sense.

There is a very famous Supreme Court judgment in respect of county development plans, which in simple terms states that it is a contract with the people and citizens. It is about their expectation for the proper planning and sustainable development of their area. I will leave it there. They are really more general comments but the witnesses may have particular responses in the last two minutes.

Does anybody wish to respond to those comments?

The OPW might kick off.

Ms Rosemary Collier

I thank the Senator for his compliments with regard to Monkstown Castle; they are much appreciated. I will pass them on to the team that looks after it, and we will fix the sign if indeed it did fall down.

On the issue of world heritage, the point we made in the opening statement was for clarity because, again, people think that the OPW fulfils certain roles and sometimes we need to clarify that we do not. We are very happy to work with the Department in terms of how the world heritage process works, however. We participate in the technical group and will do so when it is set up in regard to the tentative list that is being looked at at the moment. In general terms, we are quite happy with how the process works.

Obviously, in terms of ultimate designation, there are implications for the Commissioners of Public Works. The Senator will understand that we care for the two UNESCO world heritage sites of Brú na Bóinne and Sceilg Mhichíl. They have a huge requirement in terms of skilled staffing but also a direct labour workforce, who are very expert in the craft skills required to look after these types of sites. There are, therefore, implications for us in how we do and resource our work and the expert skills that are required. It is very important that we input to that process but I do not think we have a particularly strong view about having a statutory function. It was merely just to clarify that we do not and that it is a matter for the Department. That is the first issue.

The second issue is the uniformity of fining under that part of the Bill. What is attractive to us is the ability to be able to bring in by-laws and that with the permission of the Minister, we can look at a process of enacting by-laws. Sustainable management of these very vulnerable heritage sites is really important.

At the moment, we do not have a full armory in how we can manage those to the optimum. We do not have the ability to adopt by-laws to be able to regulate issues around parking or where we had issue with dogs in relation to protected species on sites and those kinds of things. We welcome that Part of the Bill.

I spoke earlier about the business of how we would implement or operate a system where one can actually identify somebody who has breached something and then fine them. We would like to see how this progresses and give it further consideration. We think that if it is applied judiciously, it would be very welcome but we obviously need to work through the practicalities of that.

Mr. Brian Keaney

I thank the Senator for his kind words.

The institute works very closely on continuous professional development with elected members. We have been partnering with the Office of the Planning Regulator on training sessions throughout the country even during Covid and lockdown. We will have our annual conference on 7 and 8 April. I am happy to publicise this to the committee. The points about subsidiarity are well made. The strength of local government is the representation through local councillors. Much of the work we have been doing on continuous professional development is about empowering local councillors and informing them on the changes in policy and putting them in a position where they are able to shape and form it. I am happy to continue this and take back the comments on it.

Will Mr. Kearney follow up briefly on INSTAR or send the committee some information? That would be great.

A briefing note on INSTAR would be very helpful.

That is appreciated.

I thank all of the witnesses. Hearing Mr. Keaney's voice brought me right back to 2019 and sitting in South Dublin County Council chamber at marathon meetings debating Clonburris strategic development zone for weeks on end.

Mr. Brian Keaney

That is true.

This is what my question is about. It is about the development of housing and how it integrates with the general scheme. I would like to hear the perspective of each of the witnesses on this. I welcome the threat of significant sanction where our heritage and monuments may be undermined. With all of the housebuilding going on throughout the country, how will developers know when they have triggered the protections of the Bill? How will they know what to do? I would welcome the understanding of the witnesses as individuals on their interpretation of this.

I have a specific question for Mr. Keaney on the Irish Planning Institute's concerns about head 20, which provides for the Minister to be consulted. I want to understand better why Mr. Keaney feels it is too weak. I support Senator Boyhan in what he said. I also attended the annual Irish Planning Institute's conference for a number of years in the past. I agree this is something that may be quite useful for us as a group to consider attending.

I want to make a quick comment on general scheme and why it is so important to communities such as mine. My constituency is home to the Clondalkin round tower. It is a national monument of historical significance. In recent years it has been transformed into a fabulous interactive museum, tourist attraction and popular cafe called East Village. It has its own gift shop, which sells locally made items such as Tommy Keogh's photographs of the tower. This transformation was led by South Dublin County Council, spurred on by a vibrant and passionate community, in particular groups such as Rally Round the Tower. It was done because of the dedication of former councillors, including Breeda Bonner and Tony Delaney. It was enabled by national funding, which many of us worked across parties to secure. That same site was once the subject of a controversial planning application. Proposed legislation such as that before us would prevent that from ever happening again. What is proposed in the general scheme would preserve such monuments throughout the country and give them the opportunity to become destinations, just like the round tower. This is very welcome.

Mr. Brian Keaney

With regard to the views of the Irish Planning Institute on the relationship between the Act and the impact on housing delivery, as part of any plan-making exercise we consult widely with various Departments. We have referred to the various registers of monuments. This information is collated. We did that in Clonburris, to which Deputy Higgins referred. At a very simple level when it comes to planning or designing an area we use any existing heritage, for example hedgerows, ring forts or subsurface archaeology, to help shape the form of the urban layout. If we are aware of an archaeological monument or subsurface archaeology in a large urban extension such as Clonburris they are the areas we designate as open spaces to try to protect them from intensive development.

More broadly, all zones of archaeology are lines on maps but in reality the archaeology could extend beyond the boundaries as marked on maps. As development occurs there are often requirements in planning applications based on advice from the archaeological services whereby we monitor the works. If anything is uncovered through construction it is investigated and recorded. These are the protections. The role of the planning system in the relationship between development of not only housing but all development and archaeology is to raise awareness for landowners and the development sector.

As we touched on earlier, one of the important elements of the planning system is the input of subsidiarity and the input of local communities and councillors, and Deputies and Senators, into the plan making process. It is to raise awareness. Something that strikes me working in local government is the value that local communities bring to the process. Often there is a lot of local knowledge that may not necessarily be known in the executive of a local authority because those working in it tend to come from various parts of the country. This local knowledge is invaluable and it is important to have this input.

With regard to head 20, we raised it with regard to the issue of dangerous buildings legislation. We often have a situation in which an historic property is flagged and ends up on a record as a dangerous building. The implication, therefore, is that the building or structure must be removed. On this particular issue, the general scheme states that the Minister must be consulted. We believe this should be strengthened. The Minister should have the power to prohibit the demolition of a national monument because of its designation of national importance. The wording should be tightened up to give the Minister greater power on this. To make a plug for the institute and our conference on 7 and 8 April in Kilkenny, we welcome engagement with elected members at all levels. We extend the invitation to the committee.

I thank Mr. Keaney and I appreciate the response. Would other witnesses like to speak on the question?

Mr. Ian Doyle

The Deputy's choice of Clondalkin is very interesting. I remember being in Clondalkin approximately 20 years ago. When I returned in recent times I was quite struck by the change. The character of being a place of historic significance was far more legible. In the heritage world we refer to what the Deputy spoke about as place making and the power of heritage to do this. The round tower, some imagination and partnership has done this. I can think of a number of projects throughout the country that have done this. It is the transformative power of heritage to give a place a stronger meaning.

The Deputy asked how the proposed legislation helps to support this and mentioned housing in particular. There is a line in the 1930 Act about archaeological licensing. This was written at a time when a professor in a university might go and excavate at Lough Gur for six weeks over the course of the summer. We now have projects, such as those mentioned by the Deputy or complex housing projects, that have archaeological strategies to enable excavation and to enable leaving some finds in situ to preserve them for future generations. The provisions outlined in the general scheme would regulate and introduce better quality management procedures. It will help in the delivery of this. It should also help in terms of the ongoing professionalisation of the archaeological heritage sector. It will make a strong contribution in this regard.

I thank Mr. Doyle.

Ms Rosemary Collier

We concur with Mr. Doyle's assessment. In our opening statement, we referred to the provisions on streamlining the licensing procedures with regard to our work. We feel it will also benefit the general commercial development sector, in particular relating to housing.

To add to the comments on Clondalkin, what South Dublin County Council has achieved with the community there is really fantastic and we are delighted to continue to care for the round tower. The whole place-making and transformative work done there with the community is really important. We will continue in our role and the other role played by other stakeholders is really critical. The provisions in the general scheme are designed to strengthen that.

In the final two slots we have Deputies Flaherty and Duffy. We will then be into a free round if members wish to raise hands to put further questions. It is also helpful to the committee if witnesses, towards the end, outline their main recommendations to us. We are looking at the heads of the Bill and we will make recommendations to the Minister on how we can improve, change or modify them.

I thank the speakers from the organisations for coming before us today. It has been a very informative session. In my short time in Dáil Éireann - it is just over two years now - we have seen significant progress in the area. I pay tribute to my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, who has really shone a light on the area and been a driving force in respect of it. Any of the engagements I have had with him on heritage matters have been extremely positive. It is important to put that on record.

I will focus on the Heritage Council for a moment. There was mention of a number of community archaeologists operating across Galway, Sligo, south Dublin and, closest to me, in Roscommon, as well as the Burren. What are the criteria or how is something like that initiated? Does the proposal come from the council or are there pre-existing sites? What is the process for getting a community archaeologist involved?

Mr. Ian Doyle

We have a programme now where each local authority applies to us for funding for it. That is how we work it. As of yesterday, we closed a community heritage grant scheme, where communities came to us with proposals to work in partnership with experts, including architects or archaeologists, on conservation projects. These might be churches or graveyards, and we see those as a form of community archaeology as well, with people coming together to work in partnership to make a strong contribution to conserving, caring and learning about heritage.

Is it fair to say, based on what Mr. Doyle has said, that the council works with seven local authorities? Is there more than what was mentioned in the opening statement?

Mr. Ian Doyle

I hope that by the end of this year we will work with eight authorities.

Eight. Has there been a case where a local authority made a submission that was turned down or it was felt it did not merit consideration?

Mr. Ian Doyle

It is a competitive process so that has happened.

Okay. I thank Mr. Doyle.

I will move to the OPW. I am going to speak about a specific location and I appreciate that the witnesses may not be fully up to speed on the matter. Most of the heritage sites and locations are high-profile locations right across the country. On the islands in Lough Ree, we have a number of very significant sites. I will speak specifically to Inchcleraun, an old monastic settlement in the heart of Lough Ree. It is not a million miles from where I grew up. There are a number of landowners, probably no more than two or three, who still have rights on the island. There is some concern about some vandalism to the structures on the site, and some of those structures are 800 or 900 years old. There is an element of camping there as well, which probably is not appropriate.

In the context of OPW's focus, what is the position regard the islands of Lough Ree? Who looks after them? Is there a dedicated team within the OPW for such work or is it just added to somebody's duties? If a landowner wanted to work in conjunction with the OPW and look to turn back the clock by introducing native rare breed cattle to the island, such as there may have been on the island 400 or 500 years ago, is there an opportunity for the landowner to work with the office to safeguard and enhance an obvious visitor experience at the location?

Deputy Emer Higgins took the Chair.

Mr. Kenneth Moore

I do not have the specific details of the site referred to by the Deputy, but he has touched on a matter I can speak about and which may explain some related issues. There was vandalism of the site recently, which is really unfortunate and should not happen. We have been cognisant of that in recent years and there was a little bit of an uptick in such activity during the pandemic because of the increased number of people visiting heritage sites. Anecdotally or generally speaking, damage to national monuments has declined in recent years, at least as far as we are aware.

Last year, in conjunction with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, we ran a campaign called Protect Our Past to try to tackle vandalism. I hope it can help in light of what happened at Lough Ree. The campaign ran during the summer in general and standard media, as well as online. We used a variety of digital platforms on which to put the message. The idea was to get people to appreciate such sites. We firmly believe that we must educate people about this because using threats does not get us anywhere. That was the aim of the campaign.

It is difficult to know the reach achieved as a result of a campaign in standard media and newspaper advertising. On the digital side, we know it had a reach of approximately 2.2 million people. We think and hope it had an impact. There were one or two high-profile incidents in the past two years involving damage done to monuments. Generally speaking, such activity is not wilful; it is mindless more than anything else. I hope that campaign will assist in some way in protecting sites such as those on Lough Ree. I will revert to the Deputy with information on the site and plans for it.

The site comes under one of our teams in the western area. There is a conservation architect and depots of our general operatives in the west of Ireland. My colleague, Ms Collier, mentioned that some of the sites we have are inaccessible and island properties pose different problems with respect to access and the time it takes to get to them and back, etc. They are challenging.

I can certainly appreciate issues of access but within Lough Ree we have a real treasure trove. I mentioned Inchcleraun; we also have Saint's Island and Quaker Island. Many of these sites date back to the earliest Christian times. There has clearly a large uptake in boating and I am thankful that people are much more appreciative of our waterways. People are getting out to them much more. There is a timely opportunity for us to try to do something now with these sites. They have been very much a forgotten part of our heritage portfolio because not many people are familiar with them unless they are from the area.

It is interesting to hear Mr. Moore say this falls under the remit of the part of the office dealing with the western region. It clearly has a significant body of work to do as well. With the islands in Lough Ree and other inland islands, is there an opportunity for a dedicated small team of perhaps two to three people to deal with this as a project and safeguard these sites of intrinsic value before they deteriorate further? Such a team could, where possible, work with local landowners who want to come forward with projects.

Ms Rosemary Collier

We are delighted to work with local communities and landowners. On the question of protection, it is really important we get reports from people. The Deputy mentioned camping and vandalism, for example, and I encourage people to engage with the OPW to work against such activity. That local partnership is critical to how we protect monuments, particularly those that are in very remote or inaccessible locations.

We will certainly look at the idea mentioned by the Deputy of having a dedicated team. The inland islands have extraordinary and particular heritage that must be looked after.

The challenge is resourcing. The conservation architect who looks after inland islands, the fantastic Ms Michele O'Dea, also looks after all the islands off the coast of Mayo as well as Donegal, Sligo and Galway, so she has a huge geographic area under her remit. We will take Deputy Flaherty's comments away with us and look at whether there is a specific project for the inland islands. Again, however, it comes back to the resourcing challenge.

Deputy Flaherty mentioned a native breed of cattle and working with landowners. The OPW has developed a biodiversity strategy for the organisation, which we will launch shortly. It cascades from the national biodiversity action plan. One of the core elements and objectives of the strategy is to make sure we undertake detailed biodiversity audits and studies of our sites. In that context, we would in time be happy to look at the island sites the Deputy mentions, to undertake a detailed biodiversity study of them and to look at recommendations as to what could be achieved there. If there is an appropriate recommendation on the introduction of particular breeds of cattle, we would be happy to look at that, but the strategy cascades from the assessment and the audit in the first instance. We did a year-long biodiversity audit at Áras an Uachtaráin with Professor Jane Stout, and one of the recommendations of the audit was to look at the introduction of a particular rare breed of cattle. We would be happy to engage further on that.

I thank Ms Collier. I am heartened by the response from the OPW. As a follow-up, perhaps I could link up with Ms Collier after the meeting and we could arrange for the western team and the landowner in question to meet, most favourably and probably most practically on the island itself when the weather improves. I will not suggest a meeting in the next 48 hours - that would not be best - but when the weather improves we might arrange a visit to Inchcleraun and a meeting with the landowner. He has inspiring plans for what he wants to do there and they are all for the betterment not only of the island and of heritage but of the people generally. I will follow up with Ms Collier on that after the meeting. I thank the witnesses.

I thank the witnesses for their briefings. As always, I welcome their insights and wisdom. I confirm I am on campus.

I concur with Deputy O'Donoghue's comments. I think we are all in the same position. I note that South Dublin County Council has only one conservation officer and that she deals with the county's record of protected structures, RPS, grants; protected structure applications; architectural conservation areas, ACAs; and national monuments. Therefore, I think the issue of resourcing is a countrywide one.

I have spent most of my professional practice working on protected structures. The Bill, and any action that seeks to celebrate and protect our built heritage, is great and welcome. I believe, as do all the witnesses, I think, that our heritage is extremely important as it provides us with a reference point. It is our identity. My experience has shown me we have dedicated and passionate heritage officers. Certainly, the ones I have worked with are dedicated and passionate. The witnesses' contributions and institutions also illustrate care for and protection of our country's cultural heritage. The big issue, however, is the lack of resources and funding. That has always been the problem.

My questions are based on discussions I have had with heritage and architectural conservation officers from various local authorities. As the Chair noted, the witnesses' answers will help our report and help to amend the Bill and to make it better, so I would be grateful for their insight on the following issues. I will direct my questions initially at Mr. Keaney for his views, considering his IPI and local authority roles and his boots on the ground locally.

First, an issue for local authority architectural conservation officers and for the Bill is the possible additional responsibility placed on local authority staff for the changes relating in particular to sites in local authority ownership being given special protection, thereby putting more responsibility on the local authority reaquisition, ownership and maintenance functions. This points to the need for additional funding supports to increase capacity. The Bill proposes to move all graveyards into local authority ownership. This, I imagine, would represent a significant burden on all those local authorities. Are the witnesses aware if additional funding will or can be provided for care, conservation and an increasing staff capacity? The Bill also provides an opportunity to increase expertise in local authorities. I refer in particular to the need for county archaeologists and county heritage officers. Should that be enshrined in this legislation? We need to improve management and protection of our UNESCO sites, and this Bill should provide for that. Furthermore, there is no protection in legislation of archaeological landscapes.

Second, archaeological complexes should be retained on the record of monuments and places, RMP. Sites such as the Curragh are composed of a large number of RMP sites. Therefore, the complex itself should be its own site in order that the larger whole is protected.

Lastly, the Bill should provide for a legislative requirement for a national heritage plan and county heritage plans to ensure the conservation and protection of our country's heritage.

Mr. Keaney might start and give us some feedback on that and on how it might then go into our report.

Mr. Brian Keaney

The issue of resources, be it in the planning departments or with conservation officers or archaeologists, is critical. I think we all welcome the legislation because it will streamline, as we discussed earlier, the processes surrounding the designation of sites. From a planning point of view, it is a matter of greater clarity on the licensing process and its relationship with the planning consents. All of that is most welcome. There will be a consequential impact in the sense that if more and more sites are brought into a consent process, there has to be greater expertise.

In the area of archaeology, in my current role I have spoken to my colleague in Dublin City Council. I think there are six or maybe seven city archaeologists around the country and they all have various roles. Outside of the city councils, we are effectively relying on the expertise in the Department. It is a big issue and should probably be addressed more broadly by the Department, but it is important the committee is aware that there will be a greater resource requirement there, particularly in the area of archaeology.

As for conservation, my understanding from my role in local government is that most local authorities in the urban areas have conservation officers. Again, once one moves out of the urban areas, I think the coverage becomes a lot patchier. Then we also have heritage officers, who perform an important role. I think they are represented across nearly all our local authorities. As Deputy Duffy says, this shines a light on how we as a society value our heritage, be that archaeology, built heritage or natural heritage. The issue then is how resources are addressed. The enactment of this legislation will generate demand at local authority level. The Irish Planning Institute relies on the expertise of our archaeologists, conservation officers and heritage officers as part of both the plan-making exercise and the development management process, as with the private sector, members of the institute, An Bord Pleanála, the semi-State sector etc. They are a vital cog in the whole policy apparatus of the State.

Has Mr. Keaney seen signs coming from the Department that resources will be made available to resource those counties? The Department has developed the legislation. Maybe that question should go to all the witnesses. I have worked on conservation projects - I will not name any names - that were difficult to get through. It took about eight to ten years. I know conservation projects take time, but it was difficult in that the local authority did not really have the resources and had to conduct outreach. It just put more strain on certain people. I would like to put that to all three bodies represented if I have time. Are there signals of funding emerging to deal with this?

Mr. Brian Keaney

The institute has not had any direct engagement with the Department on the issue of resources on this issue.

We will bring in the Heritage Council representatives. They are keen to respond too.

Ms Virginia Teehan

It is very nice to see Deputy Duffy again and the questions that he raises are vital ones. The increased employment of conservation officers and archaeologists specifically for this Bill is important. In securing that, one pending good sign is the introduction of Heritage Ireland 2030, which will be a national heritage plan. It is not referred to in this Bill but it is a piece of work that has been developed by the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, and I understand it is at a very advanced stage. Equally, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has confirmed that there is funding from the national development plan to facilitate the implementation of Heritage Ireland 2030. I will not give a figure for this because I do not know the exact amount off the top of my head. That strongly focuses on supporting local authorities in developing increased capacities for personnel in heritage. Our experience in the Heritage Council is that we operate the heritage officer programme, in conjunction with the local authorities. We also provide annual funding to each local authority for a county heritage plan, which Deputy Duffy referred to. This funding must be increased significantly.

Currently, we operate seven major grant schemes, five of which are directed towards local authorities and that is only a drop in the ocean. The funding needs to be significantly increased. It is wonderful that this Government has certainly significantly increased funding for heritage. Much work needs to be done and it needs to be focused on getting in the right people. This monuments and archaeological heritage Bill requires the engagement of professional archaeologists as employees of the State and not the contracting out of this work. This is no disrespect to the private sector but we need the human capacity to be built into the State infrastructure and into local authorities on the ground. These are points that are well made and there are some good signs on the horizon.

That is brilliant. Does the OPW have a position on this issue because that would be interesting to hear?

Ms Rosemary Collier

I would concur with the Heritage Council. There are indications through the national development plan, NDP, which has been published that allocations have been made available for national monuments, in particular. In my opening statement I referred to the funding mechanism and the relationship between the Office of Public Works and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in the funding of capital works. We have a very good relationship with our colleagues there. That particular allocation across the lifetime of the NDP is most welcome and will go directly towards the work that is required in caring for the national monuments.

The other provision is that we are funded through the Oireachtas so we will continue to make the case through the annual Estimates process. There is a mechanism for Departments to work through the Estimates process and the voted expenditure through the Oireachtas in order to make the case for resourcing and for anything that comes downstream of this Bill that becomes a resource requirement. Those are my observations on how we might address those challenges as we go forward.

Excellent. I thank Ms Collier and Ms Teehan and I very much appreciate their comments.

We will go to Deputy Ó Snodaigh again. I remind members that if anybody would like to contribute again, it appears we will have time to do so. We will also come back to the witnesses to ask for their high-level overview of the recommendations that we as a committee should be looking at. I call Deputy Ó Snodaigh now, please.

I will try to be brief but I cannot always guarantee that. This question is in some ways in respect of funding because recently the restoration of the Magazine Fort, for instance, was announced and it is welcome. I have written a small piece for History Ireland welcoming this development. It is often when projects such as this are announced that a budget is set aside. Sometimes, however, we forget that the budget is not enough and that additional resources may be needed. For instance, the OPW then has to divert personnel and everything else to a big project such as this, where the budget may not be the exact amount that is required and may be a great deal more, as we know. I just had an extension put on the mother-in-law’s house and it cost me a third extra and that was just last year, and I am still paying for it.

In such instances such as large projects, and I believe Ms Teehan mentioned the making of places with these projects, because it is not just the restoration and the looking after it but it is also the setting out of it so that the public can enjoy it. That is part of what the role is. It is a big undertaking and most of these sites in the past were not self-sufficient, did not pay for the work that was put into them or, necessarily, their upkeep. How do we ensure in legislation that we give that protection? Can we do so or is it a case of the annual Estimates process, as Ms Collier has just referred to?

Finally a question arose in which the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, was very helpful and it is not even in my constituency but it is on the edge of it, namely, St. Patrick’s Cathedral. Covid-19 hit and all of a sudden nobody was visiting the cathedral and it was very substantially down in its funding. It was also in the middle of a restoration project on its roof which is costing some €9 million. The cathedral could not apply for the normal grants because it is a functioning church or ecclesiastical site, even though we would all regard it as a national monument.

People would have a view on this. Many of our cathedrals are like this. The church on Meath Street was damaged, as well as a church in Kilkenny. We all regard them as national treasures although they may not all necessarily be national monuments. There may be a blockage in their ability to apply for grants to restore them in the event of damage or, as in the case of St. Patrick’s Cathedral, where this was an outcome of the Covid-19 pandemic. Thankfully, the Minister of State stood in and the congregation and others were then in a position to finish their project. This is one of the things we should consider as there should not be a blockage for them in seeking restoration grants due to the fact that they are still in use today. Their functionality should not have to be in the past tense.

Ms Virginia Teehan

I have just clarified with Mr. Doyle. I am not certain but I believe we gave money to St. Patrick’s Cathedral. We had an emergency response fund for Covid-19 for a specific number of sites, particularly for those in the ownership of private trusts or bodies such as churches. I believe it may have received some modest funding from us because our funds are relatively modest, given the scale of this project.

Ms Virginia Teehan

The Deputy, nonetheless, raises a very relevant and important point around religious heritage because for many centuries in Ireland, the only agency for commissioning artwork, in particular, were the churches, which had funding. Many of our finest craft and art workers have their work and legacies represented in churches, church buildings and places of worship across the country. These now, for a variety of reasons, are no longer used as churches. I, certainly, and the Heritage Council are aware of this area and of a need to address the long-term protection of some of these important works.

There is a very good example of practice in Nano Nagle Place in Cork where a religious foundation of the Presentation Sisters - indeed the original site where Nano Nagle set up her first convent in a very poor part in the centre of Cork city at the end of the 18th century - has been brought back into use with both an interpretative centre, a social housing use, and a very popular and attractive shop and café. This was a very imaginative use by this religious order of a site that is important to it and is important in the centre of and a part of the city that may not be wealthy. These are answers which need to be delivered upon and it is something that is important.

More generally then, around Deputy Ó Snodaigh’s other issues on how this Bill can support that, I believe that these are broader heritage issues. Heritage protection in its own right, has been a case of where at times in Ireland, particularly outside big key heritage sites like the ones that perhaps our colleagues in the OPW manage, are seen exclusively for their commercial and tourism potential. We in the Heritage Council have discovered that their value to the communities is in the sites themselves. Their pure heritage value matters a great deal. They are part of the life of a place. Where one sees a scheme such as one to adopt a monument, we have great examples - I believe, Deputy Higgins, was talking about Clondalkin - all across the country of places that are important to people.

Money needs to go to protecting that sense of importance of the place, not for commercial gain but because they are important for citizens. We also need additional support for education on heritage and its value to us as a society.

Ms Rosemary Collier

The Deputy asked about funding. We already discussed the provisions in the Bill that expenditure is to come from a Vote of the Oireachtas. Stakeholders in the sector and we in the OPW will try to use funding to ensure that we address the complexities of the rich tapestry we have across the State. The Heritage Council referred to the attention to tourism and the commercial side. That would never traditionally have been the motivation of the OPW, which would have been about conservation and preservation. We are very conscious that sites like Brú na Bóinne, Newgrange, the Rock of Cashel and Kilkenny Castle play a very important role not only in local place making but also for the local economy and local tourism.

We need to use the available funding through strategic partnerships with partners like Fáilte Ireland on shared objectives where one objective is not taking priority over another. We need to meet the very clear conservation and preservation requirements while also delivering on the tourism and economic agendas. It is really important that stakeholders in the sector find a way to create those partnerships. We feel that we have done that very successfully with the tripartite strategic partnership between us, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, and Fáilte Ireland. There is a multitude of approaches. The rural regeneration schemes are also important.

Many of the sites in the care of the OPW fundamentally define our local towns and local places. They are very important for people's sense of place and sense of well-being. During the pandemic the engagement of local people with their national heritage was extraordinary. We need to marry the objective of supporting the economic agenda in vibrant rural communities with the conservation and preservation agenda. We are seeing some very good work being done at places like Nenagh Castle and Trim Castle. We will use the armoury of different funding opportunities, but it is fundamentally about the quality of the partnership to achieve those kinds of shared objectives. The plan certainly gives the kind of robust legislative framework for what is required throughout the estate. The stakeholders in the sector need to make the right partnerships to get the right outcomes for those shared objectives.

I take this opportunity to ask the witnesses from each of the organisations to outline some of the high-level recommendations the committee should be seeking to implement.

Mr. Brian Keaney

I am speaking on behalf of the Irish Planning Institute which represents planners across the public and private sectors and in the semi-State sector. We welcome the clarity in the heads of the Bill. I wish to reiterate the five key points from my opening statement which the committee should bear in mind as it considers the next stage of the legislation. On the issue of the developer bearing the cost of archaeological investigation, excavation or monitoring as part of the development process, the potential threat to remove archaeological or heritage features on the grounds that keeping them would render a scheme unviable is somewhat addressed as part of the legislation.

I answered questions earlier on designations. If at national level the Minister designates or introduces a feature in the register of monuments, that has the status of a protected structure as it would be in a development plan so that automatically transfers across. There is a clear link between the ministerial designation and the inclusion of that feature or monument as part of the development plan record of protected structures.

Clarity on exemptions from the requirement for archaeological licensing goes to the heart of the development management process. All works under the Planning and Development Acts, either carried out on or under the land, or making a material change trigger the requirement for planning consent. Within that there are exemptions. People will know that a single-storey extension to a domestic dwelling of less than 40 sq. m does not need planning permission in theory subject to conditions. Our concern here is the reference to exempting certain works from planning consent by virtue of the fact that they are licensed under another regime. We need clarity on that; there may not be an issue.

Where works are being done to a national monument, the first port of call is usually to raise the issue with the local authority which is the planning authority. We again need to get clarity on that issue. If exemptions are to be granted under this legislation, how do they interface with the Planning and Development Acts and regulations?

The heads of the Bill refer to the role of the Minister in respect of a dangerous building. If a national monument is classified as a dangerous building, the legislation should be changed to give the Minister greater powers to intervene to prohibit the demolition of or works to a national monument irrespective of whether it is classified as a dangerous structure. We again seek clarity on that.

We also seek clarity on the designation by the Minister of a world heritage property and what that means for the development plans. As with the register of monuments, if the Minister decides to designate a property as a world heritage property, that protection is automatically brought into the development plan process. Those are the five points.

Ms Virginia Teehan

We welcome head 27 which provides a facility whereby the Minister may vest in local authorities burial grounds whose status is currently unclear. This point was raised earlier in the committee. We believe it is good to rationalise that.

We also welcome head 30 containing measures to assist the implementation of the 1972 convention concerning the protection of the world cultural heritage and natural heritage. We welcome the clearer understanding of that world convention and the rationalisation of inserting protective mechanisms in a county development plan. We think that is a very good move.

Under head 39, we note and support the continued restriction on the use of metal detection devices. As we said in our opening statement, in 2018 we commissioned RED-C to carry out a survey of the public attitudes to archaeology in Ireland. When it came to the protection of archaeological remains, only 30% of the population knew that it was illegal to search for archaeological objects with a metal detector without a licence from the Government. This is an issue for the protection of our heritage. A large proportion of the people believe that this should be restricted to ensure that the archaeological objects do not fall into private collections and that monuments are not damaged.

Under head 66 we welcome the statutory footing for the Archaeological Survey of Ireland. That work has proven its importance in recent years. We think that is essential and will support the management of archaeological sites. Earlier we mentioned the context of these sites and the setting of archaeological monuments in the landscape. I reiterate the point made earlier on the importance of the national landscape strategy should that emerge as a result of this Bill when enacted.

We also note the approach taken, specifically in head 86, on the "promotion in knowledge and awareness" of archaeological heritage in keeping with a more progressive practice around individual and community ownership of heritage as well as public engagement. This has not been as evident in previous drafts of the Bill, because it was very much around protection. We welcome this overall tone and approach. Finally, we noted earlier, as we did in our submission, that we are concerned about the absence of any reference to the role of the Heritage Council in the Bill. We are an independent advisory body. Under the previous legislation, we were given the responsibility to assume the powers of the previous National Monuments Advisory Council. We would welcome the clarification of the role of the council this pre-legislative scrutiny process.

That last point is particularly noted. All of us members here value the council and we will do whatever we can to support it in that regard.

Ms Virginia Teehan

Thank you.

The council’s market research that only 30% of people know about the legalities around searching themselves for archaeological artefacts is interesting. There has been a lot of publicity on that in the past week. I commend the council on raising awareness of that. Would Ms Collier or Mr. Moore like to make a comment?

Ms Rosemary Collier

I will make a small summary. We have had a good opportunity to set out for members our thoughts on particular issues. To start, we welcome this Bill and the clarity that it will bring where there are overlapping provisions for the protection of monuments going forward. There will also be clarity about the role of the OPW and the Commissioners of Public Works. It is fully described now whereas there was a lack of clarity in the existing legislative framework. The legislation to enable Ireland to ratify key conventions is important as well.

We have talked through most of them, but just as a summary, under head 15, exemption of certain works to monuments" the proposal to exempt certain works for licensing processes is particularly welcome, as is head 17, exemption from EIA requirements. However, I accept Mr. Keaney's point about the clarity around where that intersects with the Planning and Development Act is critical. Again, we feel that an exemption would be welcome or should apply where there is a real risk to the health and safety of the public or where emergency works are needed to protect the integrity of a national monument. While I accept the point Mr. Keaney made on clarity, there might be valid reasons that provision would be most helpful.

On head 26, functions of the commissioners in respect of national monuments, there is just a small issue. We feel that it does not adequately describe the current role of the commissioners. We suggest a small amendment, which is about having regard to the Minister's policies and priorities, the ongoing, care, management, maintenance conservation and day-to-day operation. The words used in the head at the moment are quite flat regarding the day-to-day operation and, therefore, an amendment there might be useful for clarification.

There is also a little bit of an inconsistency between heads 25 and 26 regarding ministerial functions. Head 25 provides that the Minister is “to maintain the archaeological, architectural, artistic, historic and traditional interest of a registered monument of which he/she/it is owner or guardian" but, of course, the commissioners fulfil the function of maintenance. This is, again, about clarity, rather than us having a particular concern.

On the functions of the commissioners in respect of national monuments and by-laws"under head 26, again, we welcome this provision. We know that it requires further consideration. Again, the judicious implementation of it will be where we will most intersect with it downstream of the Bill. Head 29, enforcement of easements and covenants, is welcome but again will require further consideration as the Bill goes through the Houses. Under head 80, we made an observation to our colleagues on the "cost of prosecutions and civil proceedings and recovery of debts". We assume that this provision relates to all proceedings that might be taken under the legislation and that it is not limited to proceedings that might arise from an enforcement notice. Some clarity on the enforcement notices is needed, because local authorities do not seem to be identified under head 77 as one of the bodies with powers to issue these notices. Some clarity might be required on heads 77 to 80, inclusive. That is the summary of our observations. Again, we welcome the Bill. I will conclude by saying that we have a good working relationship with our colleagues in the Department in caring for our national monuments. We look forward to continuing to work with it in the future.

I thank Ms Collier and the OPW for everything that they do. These are some really interesting comments and observations. We will have to digest them, particularly when it comes to clarifying the role of local authorities, the role of the Minister versus the commission and elaborating on the fantastic work that the OPW does. I will bring in Deputy McAuliffe for seven minutes.

I will not require seven minutes. I apologise that I was delayed at a meeting of the Committee on Public Accounts next door. I have not quite mastered the ability to be omnipresent in both meetings. Zoom gave me the option to do that for a while, but it is not possible physically.

I thank the witnesses for the detail in the submissions that have been made. It really assists the committee when we are scrutinising legislation. Not only do they bring their own particular observations and points of view on the work that they do and the challenges they face, but they also specifically address the legislation. In particular, the head-by-head commentary on the legislation was useful to me, particularly the clarification of the roles of the Minister, the local authority and other bodies. Having served on a local authority for more than ten years, I can see that when one leaves any sort of vague interpretation, things fall between the cracks. It is important that this does not happen on this issue. It is up to us now to go away, to take those observations and to ensure that they are included in our response to the legislation. We will endeavour to do that as best we can. I have not heard any principled arguments against points that the witnesses have made. That makes it all the more likely that we will include them. I thank them very much for their time and I apologise for not being able to engage further with them but it is because of the clash of the two meetings.

We might get responses to that from the witnesses before we wrap up.

Ms Virginia Teehan

I thank the Deputy for his input. It is great to have the opportunity to present at the committee. It is a privilege. We welcome the committee’s interest in heritage. Everyone in the room is very committed to heritage. However, having the validation of the committee’s interest makes our jobs much more rewarding and easier.

Finally, I echo Ms Collier’s comments. We very much welcome this Bill and the input of our colleagues in the Department and in the National Monuments Service. They work hard every day across the country to protect heritage. This legislation is a great enhancement to help them to do their job well. It is good. It has been a long time in the making. Mr. Doyle has been involved in it for a long time. It is great that it is finally getting through the Statute Book. I wish the committee good luck with its work and I thank it again.

The real work often happens in the private sessions of the committee when we are haggling back and forth over the wording of the pre-legislative scrutiny reports. I promise Ms Teehan all of what she has submitted will form part of that process.

Ms Rosemary Collier

The Bill is very complex. It is even for us to convey to the specifics of how it relates to our work. It is an extremely complex Bill. I do not envy the committee the task of scrutinising it at this stage. However, we welcome the interest in heritage. We welcome this process at a legislative level to clarify all of the things that we discussed today, such as registers of monuments, the roles, etc. It is heartening that elected representatives are engaged in that level of detail, because it is complex. Like Ms Teehan, I wish the committee luck in its process over the next few months in finalising this and its report.

I have one further question. There was some concern about combining heritage and planning in one Department and conflicts arising from that. The Minister of State, Deputy Noonan ,has done fantastic work in that area. We are a year and a half into that process. Have the witnesses any observations on combining the planning and the heritage responsibilities in the Department? These responsibilities arise under the legislation, but they also arise in the round in how the Departments operate. Do they have any observations that will not get them in trouble?

Ms Virginia Teehan

I do not know how to answer that.

Open-ended questions are always bad, are they not?

Ms Virginia Teehan

It is good because we work a lot with colleagues in the planning and housing divisions. The last time I was here was to talk about the town centre first policy and the collaborative town centre health check programme, and they also reside in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. We work with the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media as well. That is a big part of what we do and we have good relationships. A lot of our work stems from what happens on the ground and those relationships grow on the ground. We are fortunate in that the heritage division in the Department as it is now situated, fits in with the disciplines around it and our resources have increased considerably in this new situation. All heritage provision is complementary to the wider work of the housing divisions and local authorities, which are a big part of this Bill. The Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, the Minister, Deputy Darragh O’Brien and the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, work directly with the Heritage Council and have direct engagements with us reasonably regularly, which is testament to their commitment to heritage and to their rate of work, which is good.

Does Mr. Keaney want to come in on the first part of Deputy McAuliffe’s contribution?

Mr. Brian Keaney

I am here representing the IPI as vice-president and I thank the committee for inviting us in and allowing us to make our voice heard. It is an important Bill. The focus of planners and the planning system is on the Planning and Development (Amendment) Act 2021 but I go back to the point that there is a critical interface between this Bill and that Act. I am speaking on behalf of the planning profession. Heritage is valuable to the planning system and that should not be understated. One of our contributors also mentioned the value of place-making. Plan-led place-making is at the heart of the IPI’s policy position in how the planning system is evolving and changing. We are moving away from a site-by-site and development-led approach to planning towards a more wholesome and plan-led approach that then gets input from various stakeholders as we discussed today, be they communities, elected members, landowners or developers. It is important to recognise that heritage is one of those key stakeholders and is a key driver in terms of place. How we treat our heritage goes to the heart of what we value as a country and society. That is reflected in our plans and place-making and I want to reiterate that point.

The planning system, like all legislation and processes is a bit like democracy in that it continues to evolve. Speaking from the point of view of planners, we are keen that we embrace and work with our heritage colleagues to deliver better plans and to respond in the context of sustainable development to the future needs of society. Heritage is a key element of that. I echo the comments of the other speakers and I wish the committee well in the next Stage of the legislative process. The Irish Planning Institute is happy to contribute and if the committee wants clarification on any points raised today or on issues that arise through the committee’s deliberations we are more than happy to keep in contact and collaborate on this.

I thank Mr. Keaney and all of our witnesses for sharing their time, expertise and in-depth knowledge of this complex topic with us. They have each made valuable contributions and I have taken a lot from them. The committee appreciates the witnesses engaging with us in this way.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.15 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 22 February 2022.
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