Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Sep 2022

General Scheme of the Local Government (Maternity Protection and Other Measures for Local Authority Elected Members) Bill 2022: Discussion

Chairman

Good morning everybody and welcome to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Today we begin our pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the local government (maternity protection and other measures for local authority elected members) Bill 2022. I welcome Deputy Denise Mitchell, who is substituting for Deputy O'Broin, and Senator Maria Byrne, who is substituting for Senator Cummins. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, and his officials to the committee. An opening statement, a briefing and the general scheme of the Bill have been circulated to members.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. For those attending remotely within the confines of Leinster House complex they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meetings. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I will now invite the Minister of State, Deputy Burke, to make his opening statement and I thank him for being here this morning.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Peter Burke)

I thank the members for affording us the time to come to the committee in relation to this pre-legislative scrutiny. I also thank the committee for the expeditious way it has dealt with this issue, notwithstanding how busy it is.

My opening statement has circulated and I will outline a few points contained therein. A key priority of mine when I was appointed as Minister of State was to get the Moorhead report enacted, and second one of the key issues that had significant urgency attached to it was maternity leave for our elected representatives. We have seen in public discourse how frustrated women have been in terms of not having that right enshrined in legislation as they go about discharging their functions as elected representatives. At that juncture, I took action in April 2021, when we established a sub-group comprising women from all political parties and none, who essentially adjudicated on what the framework or proposal should be for maternity leave and what would suit their needs, because obviously everyone has very different and varying needs. We gave women the option to frame the proposal that they would like, and this is the genesis of what they asked for.

We also consulted with the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, the Local Authority Members Association, LAMA, Women for Election, the National Women's Council of Ireland, and See Her Elected to ensure that we were covering every area in relation to this support. What really jarred with me was that women had to get a resolution from the local authority under section 18 for absences of more than six months. Essentially that meant women facing into maternity leave caring for a young infant would have to go into the council chamber seeking a resolution from a potentially male-dominated local authority to gain permission to take maternity leave. In a modern democracy that is totally unacceptable. That is why this piece of reform took priority at that juncture.

We will also be putting forward a policy framework around paternity leave and adoptive leave. However, I would point out to members that in relation to each of those areas for parental leave of 26 weeks and adoptive leave of 24 weeks, councillors can take those under the current rules and do not require an extension under section 18. We will hopefully put a policy framework forward around that in the coming months, but as I said the urgency was to ensure that the lacuna in the law for maternity leave was rectified urgently.

I also want to point out the work we are doing through our women's caucus network which we have established right around the country, which is a huge support for women in an apolitical way. Furthermore, through working with See Her Elected, we took first in Europe in the European innovation in politics awards with an incredible initiative it has supporting women, which was a very proud day for that organisation. I am privileged to work with it.

In other reforms, we have remote working now for our local authorities which gives them additional flexibility, so we have done our best to hive out all of those opportunities the global pandemic presented, and to keep the best of those opportunities to ensure local authority members are supported into the future. Obviously, we really appreciate the work the committee is doing and we will continue apace, hopefully, to have our legislation finalised on foot of the committee's report, which we eagerly await. As it is a small piece of legislation, it is doing exactly what it says on the tin and we would appreciate if the committee continued in the fashion that it has done in expeditiously bringing forward its report.

Chairman

I take the opportunity to compliment the Minister of State and his team on the widespread consultation that was involved in bringing this general scheme to us, and the participation of those groups he mentioned.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank the Minister of State and all of his team for bringing forward this legislation. It is very important. I speak as a former local authority member who, when pregnant, was in the chamber, and when I was in the labour ward over in the Rotunda Hospital, my absence was noted and reported. It is an unfair pressure that is put on local authority members. They feel torn between the duties and the responsibilities they have fought for and value and other calls on them such as what we are discussing. It is very important. Local authority members are the backbone of our democracy in their local communities. They are people who come forward and stand up for others. They speak for their immediate local community but also for their wider local authority area and they contribute to national and international developments and debates. They provide an incredibly important role and they are ordinary people, men and women, from whatever their background, be it professional, a teacher, a nurse or carer, who come forward and contribute. The contribution they make to our democracy and to the delivery of government at a local level is invaluable. It is only right they would enjoy the basic rights of other workers, in this instance specifically, maternity leave.

It is also very important this legislation accommodates the need that can arise in exceptional circumstances for a temporary substitution. It has not been in place before and it is not fair either on the individual to feel compromised and torn between their different demands and responsibilities. It is also not fair on the local area they represent if their place goes unfilled or if their local representative is, for whatever extraneous reasons, unable to attend.

I commend the Minister of State and support this legislation. Will the final draft be so specific as to identify what those exceptional qualifying circumstances will be or will it be left as a broader statement and a matter for each local authority to determine whether the request is justified? Well done to the Minister of State.

Deputy Peter Burke

The Senator's points are very valid and well made. We are hoping to bring in legislation in relation to sick leave as well, with the explicit wording "will be absent due to illness or in good faith" to cover other areas the Senator referred to. This is important because if someone is undergoing chemotherapy or is very ill and has a protracted absence, it is very unfair that the council would have to give resolution to accommodate them.

The point made about the substitute is very important. Prior to us engaging in drafting a general scheme, there was discourse around changing to a six-month period as then maternity leave would be there for women. However, as the Senator rightly points out, if for argument's sake, a council is going through a material contravention, needs a two thirds majority and the vote is very tight in their respective communities, a woman on maternity leave without that legislative framework underpinning that absence or without the option of a substitute could feel under pressure to attend the chamber. What we have done here is provided choice for women so that they can chose what suits them best as they go about caring for their new infant.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

I start by welcoming this Bill. I thank the Minister of State and his team for the commitment they have given to it, and now we finally have it up and running. This is a very important Bill and it removes a significant block that prevents women standing for election. I know it is welcomed across all our female councillors. I am looking for clarification on a number of questions. The first question relates to heads 3 and 4. Will the Minister of State clarify if the scheme will be operational from the enactment of the legislation or will he be signing regulations?

Deputy Peter Burke

I expect it will be operational from the enactment. We have regulations currently, which were advanced on in relation to that administrative support aspect. If a councillor chooses to remain in office but wants administrative support to carry out their functions over their maternity leave period, we will be bringing in regulations in tandem with the Bill for doing that.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

Has the Minister of State an approximate timeframe around when he thinks these regulations will be ready?

Deputy Peter Burke

As soon as the Bill is ready, we will publish both together. There will be a suite of measures to support it.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

On the regulations, does the Minister of State have any detail about what he is looking at putting forward?

Deputy Peter Burke

I have indeed. We are looking at approximately €230 per week of administrative support for local authority members on maternity leave that would help them with secretarial work if they so chose. There is a genuine fear held by some women that they do not want to step away from their role fully but need support like that. This support mirrors what Oireachtas Members get currently under their allowance, and that is what we have framed it on, at the request of local authority members.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

Regarding the temporary substitution in head 8, 19A(1)(c), which the Minister of State briefly touched on with Senator Fitzpatrick, what type of circumstances would be covered? I know he mentions absences due to illness or in good faith or another reason.

Deputy Peter Burke

That is the language we have inserted. I see that as coming into force if someone has a very significant reason that incapacitates them or if they are very ill. Going around the country, I have met people and seen a number of circumstances where the family of a very sick individual have had to request the local authority to extend their period of absence. Again, requesting a resolution of local authority members is borne out in the public eye. This provision means that if someone was very sick or on chemotherapy, he or she would be allowed remain absent without having to do that resolution and would have a substitute in their place. The community would get its voice as well then.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

On administrative supports, just so I can get this straight in my head, there are two choices been given here. The councillor can have a clean break, take the 26 weeks, and a substitute nominated by the council team will take their place. With regard to the administrative staff, is that staff member employed by the councillor? Is there going to be a procedure for appointing these staff?

Deputy Peter Burke

We will do it through the current vouch scheme we have for local authority members. What we did this year on foot of the reforms requested through the Moorhead report is we have brought about a fully transparent vouch system for all local authority members where they have to furnish invoices in respect of payments they give. It is through mirroring that system that we will be giving the extra allowance to the local authority member in question.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

If I were a councillor on maternity leave, would the person who would take my place be on the same committee? I am wondering this and want to find this out. When we get into the nitty-gritty, what happens with committee positions or if I am a member of a strategic policy committee, SPC?

Deputy Peter Burke

My view is that they should be but that would obviously be at the request of the council. The local authority is the key decision-maker on what positions any elected member holds at any time, by resolution of the council. In terms of good faith, it would be hoped the positions of a councillor who is on maternity leave would fall into the place of an individual who is providing a role as a substitute and giving voice to that councillor's community.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

On the provisions, when councillors return to work, will any provisions be made in the regulations regarding breast-feeding?

Deputy Peter Burke

It is something we can look at. I have heard some very significant stories, particularly in our own party in Dún Laoghaire, about women bringing their infants into the chamber for breast-feeding. It was very interesting last night in the Dáil Chamber to see a new baby brought in. Councils can put a framework around that themselves. I do not think we need legislation. A lot of this should be common sense. It is about a culture change in society to bring that about. Maternity leave was a basic right that was not provided for in primary legislation for officeholders in local authorities, and that is the piece I want to unlock and change now.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

I know the Minister of State established up the subgroup. I thank all those who participated on it, from all parties. In fairness, they raised many other issues as well. Will we be progressing to dealing with the other issues they raised, such as paternity leave, parental leave and miscarriage leave?

Deputy Peter Burke

Absolutely. Councillor Joanna Byrne of the Deputy's party was on the subgroup. We have established a committee to consider the non-pay aspects of the Moorhead report. In terms of paternity leave, section 18 is not invoked where one would have to take the extra six months or go past the six-month period. We want to put a policy framework around that. As I stated, the most urgent issue was that of maternity leave. My fear was that if I did not progress it, I could get delayed doing other items that we are trying to bring in. It is incremental change but in the course of the year I heard so many concerns from women in respect of this issue and it potentially being a barrier for women. It is a chief concern. It is about equality of treatment in politics. I believed it was a significant barrier to women going into politics. If a modern democracy is not facilitating women in the way that it ought to be, that makes a statement. That is why I wanted to change that framework first. We are, however, working apace on the other issues.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

The work is continuing.

Deputy Peter Burke

Absolutely.

Deputy Denise Mitchell

I thank the Minister of State.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the Minister of his State and all his team who have worked on this. I particularly thank the subgroup, on which Councillor Lorraine Hall was the Fine Gael representative. I know she put an awful lot of work into it. It is to be hoped that it will have results from which she and many other women will benefit.

It is an important step forward. The Minister of State described it as a cultural change and that is what we absolutely need when it comes to politics. We know that women are underrepresented in politics across the board. Three out of four councillors are men. I was at the ploughing championships yesterday, where I chatted with members of See Her Elected. It is doing incredible work in supporting women who are interested in standing in local elections. The statistics, experiences and stories it has and shares are utterly depressing, however. There is a local authority with only one female councillor. We have to focus on changing that. One of the most important things we can do is to make sure that council chambers are welcoming spaces for women. Right now, young women thinking about starting a family do not fit in there because they would not have access to maternity leave which, as the Minister described, is a basic human right. This legislation is critical because it rectifies that. It is progressive and positive. In today's world, it should not be progressive, but it is. I say "Well done" to the Minister of State on taking that progressive step.

I am very glad to hear about the €230 a week that will go towards administrative support for women on maternity leave. Is the same allowance also extended to those on illness leave? It is really positive that illness leave is included in the Bill. Unfortunately, illness leave is something that many of us will require from time to time. At the moment, different local authorities treat councillors who need to take time off due to illness differently. That is not fair and there is no equity in it. This Bill will change that. It will deliver equity and fairness and standardise that situation.

I have a couple of questions on the logistics of the substitute. Head 8 states that the substitution comes to an end when the maternity leave ends. I welcome that because there is no ambiguity and there will be no disagreement in respect of people staying on in the role. Is it the same situation when it comes to illness benefit? How will that work?

Will the co-option process be the same as the current situation, which is that in the case of a councillor standing down for whatever reason, the name of the person the councillor or his or her party is nominating as a replacement goes to the full local authority for ratification? Ultimately, there is a vote. Local authority chambers operate in the same way as the Dáil Chamber. It is local democracy. There are ruling groups there as well. How will that work? Is that addressed in the legislation to ensure that no issues arise and to prevent councillors deciding not to allow the substitute in? When the substitution ends, is the original elected member automatically returned to the chamber? Does the person have to be co-opted onto the seat he or she won? I hope that is not the case. It does not seem that it will be the case, judging by the legislation, but it would be great to get clarity on it. I would not be comfortable with the idea that a person would effectively be removed from a role to which he or she was democratically elected. The legislation is written in such way that the nomination is made by the political party, and I plead with all political parties to respect the wishes of the woman taking maternity leave. If she is being replaced by a direct competitor, that will not make her maternity leave a less stressful time. I ask political parties across the board to consider the wishes of the woman going on maternity leave in that regard.

Those are my questions on illness leave in particular, and how the substitution process formally works.

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank the Deputy. I wish to acknowledge Ms Laura Mannion, who has done a significant amount of work on this in my area, as have Mr. O'Leary and Mr. Buggy, in terms of feeding through the subgroups and reflecting the wishes of women.

On illness benefit, my intention through the regulation is to have that administrative support. As I stated, I have encountered a few of the very difficult cases where that does, unfortunately, happen to local authority members.

As regards the duration for a person who is ill, it is 18 months. Essentially, the seat or vacancy would then terminate and the person would be deemed to have resigned after the 18 months.

As regards maternity leave, as the Deputy rightly pointed out, it is 26 weeks plus 16 additional weeks. The casual vacancy ends at that juncture and the councillor is automatically reappointed to the local authority. As the Deputy stated, that is important because these are democratically elected individuals. We are providing certainty for them in terms of carrying on their life by having a temporary substitute in place and their community represented for the period in question. The €230 per week is framed on 19 hours, approximately.

We are bringing in a significant number of additional supports. That is how we expanded the vouched scheme of expenditure for local authority members to bring in a number of areas that were not previously included. That is important because there were 114 local authority areas but that number dropped to 31, with a reduction to 949 councillors countrywide. The geographical areas councillors represent got far bigger and there are many statutory bodies they have to nominate onto, as well as non-statutory bodies and the public participation network, PPN. The role of a councillor now places significant demands on their daily lives, especially when going through the county development plan process, which is a minefield for councillors. They have to grapple with various issues and regulations when adjudicating on what is best for their area and providing that cornerstone document. We want to provide them with all the support we possibly can.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Super. I again thank the Minister of State, his team and the subgroup. This is such a positive step forward. It will make council chambers across the country more welcoming spaces for women. We all need to make sure that politics is more welcoming for them.

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Before I welcome the Bill, I want to correct something the Minister of State said in his opening remarks. He stated that the working group had representation from all political parties and none. To be clear, it did not have representation from all political parties. It did have representation from a good number of political parties but my party, for example, was not represented on it.

Deputy Peter Burke

It was represented. Councillor Clare Claffey was a representative on it.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Okay. I thank the Minister of State. It was not represented initially. Other smaller parties, however, were not represented on it.

Deputy Peter Burke

They were.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Okay.

Deputy Peter Burke

All parties were requested to submit a nominee, and they did, as far as I can see from the list in front of me.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Okay. I accept the Minister of State's correction; apologies for that.

I welcome the legislation and, in particular, the fact that it recognises that public representatives are human, just like everyone else. There is a problem in politics and political discourse whereby public representatives are often dehumanised. The expectations of them are very high, and do not recognise their humanity and that they have the same needs as other people. It is very important that their humanity and needs are recognised to encourage and facilitate more women, and indeed, more parents with young children, into politics. It is important that practice in public life reflects good practice elsewhere. I welcome that the heads of Bill do that. The issue does not affect all local authorities, but I have heard some real horror stories from some local authorities, particularly where women have been very underrepresented, where there has been what can only be described as outright sexism and the bullying of some female councillors when they have first been elected. The legislation will send a signal in that direction and will break that culture. That is most welcome.

I want to ask the Minister of State a few questions. He touched on the issue of temporary substitutes earlier. If a councillor does not opt for a temporary substitute, she will still be counted for quorum purposes. Can a councillor choose not to have a temporary substitute but take a leave of absence for a number of months and opt not to be counted for quorum purposes?

Deputy Peter Burke

It would be up to the local authority in question to decide that. Essentially, if a representative wants to take maternity leave and step away from her role, we will provide her with the support to do that, and with a temporary substitute. However, the representative may wish to remain in her role. Indeed, some women have expressed such a preference, but have stated that administrative support would make their role a little easier at that juncture. That is why we have provided, through regulation, that they will have that administrative support to help them carry out their role. They will not be fully on maternity leave if they choose not to leave their position.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

However, the council or local authority, through it standing orders, would be able to do that, and that would be an option.

Deputy Peter Burke

It could. It would be up to the local authority in question. Other Deputies raised the issue of breastfeeding. That is a culture change that needs to take place at local authority level and at the coal face.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Just to be clear, the provision of administrative support is just for councillors who do not choose to have a temporary substitute. Is that correct?

Deputy Peter Burke

Yes.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Did the Minister of State consider having that option available for councillors who do opt to have a temporary substitute? They are still going to have a lot of emails coming into their accounts. An arrangement could be made for the substitute to deal with that, but it is not ideal in the sense that the substitute is obviously going to be new in the role. If a person is filling the substitute role for a short period like that, even just to attend meetings and functions, etc., he or she may not be best set up to deal with the full burden of the representational stuff that comes in.

Deputy Peter Burke

I did consider that option. When framing this legislation, there were three Acts that we had to go through to amend, the Local Government Act 2001, the Maternity Protection Act 1994 and the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005. As we were working through the current legislation in place, we found that section 50 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act is clear on the requirements of maternity leave, that women cannot engage in work. That is why, when we were trying to put officeholders into the shoes of employees for the purposes of maternity leave only, without having to make any constitutional change, and to do it quickly, we felt that the best mechanism to take the stress and pressure off women on maternity leave would be to give them an option of having a substitute if they wanted to take that clean break, and to navigate though section 50. It is very hard to draw the line if we say that women can do some work but claim maternity benefit, when the law explicitly states that they cannot. That is why the substitute has to take up the role fully. We do not want the mother of a newborn infant to be worrying about what emails are coming in and what work pressures are happening in her constituency or electoral area. Hopefully, this payment-----

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Is it only the substitute who can do the representation?

Deputy Peter Burke

That is correct. Hopefully, the payment will allow women to have security and a clean break.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Does that mean that councillors on maternity leave will receive maternity leave benefit?

Deputy Peter Burke

Yes. In 2017, a change was made from class K to class S, which qualifies them for maternity benefit.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I have a final question on the point that Deputy Mitchell raised about positions on SPCs not being automatically transferable, and that being up to local authorities. Is it not possible to do that in the legislation? I ask the Minister of State to explain more about that. It would certainly be desirable, because where there is not a huge support, we can see people, in a competitive sense, trying to get positions on committees. That is something that would discourage people from opting for a substitute when they should if they want to.

Deputy Peter Burke

I understand the Deputy's genuinely-held views on the issue. Currently, the council decides, by resolution, what nominees go on the various statutory and non-statutory bodies. If is difficult to prescribe, in primary legislation, for a local authority to act in particular circumstances. I am not sure if we could do that. I did look at it. However, from talking to local authority members around the country, I am confident that 99% of councillors are very good and genuine people. I do not foresee a situation whereby they would obstruct a woman, or her wishes to have a substitute when on maternity leave, by stopping her from joining various committees. I genuinely feel that way, from the engagement I have had with local authority members. Our hope and aspirations for local authorities and, indeed, the culture change that we are discussing, wold be severely damaged if that were to happen. We will do our best to act if it does happen, but I do not see it happening. I have good faith in our local authority members. I genuinely do think that they will embrace this change. I attended the AILG conference last week and I have engaged widely across levels. Many councillors ring me from week to week. I am confident that they will embrace the change.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

They will embrace the spirit of it.

Deputy Peter Burke

Absolutely.

Chairman

I call Senator Moynihan.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

I am not on the grounds of Leinster House so I cannot contribute. I am just tuning into the meeting.

Chairman

I thank the Senator. I call on Senator Seery Kearney, followed by Deputy Gould and Senator Byrne.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I thank the Minister of State for attending, for all of the work that has been done in the past few years, and especially for his role in this area. I reiterate the praise that he gave to Ms Mannion, in particular, and thank her for her constant work across many areas in the Minister of State's Department. I thank her, in particular, for her dedication to this work, as I thank the other officials who are also attending today. I am not denigrating them in any way.

I welcome this progressive legislation. The employment lawyer in me makes me look at it through that lens. To go for real cultural change, there has to be the deterrent of redress. I see what is there. In the event that the culture change is not as well exhibited as we would have the optimism to expect, what redress is built into this new situation to ensure the hammering home of that cultural change? Who would be the party that may be brought into a redress process for correction if the supports are not exhibited?

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank the Senator for her contribution and for her positive comments on my team. In the first instance, this is a right that will be set down in primary legislation. It is not the case that there will be any adjudication of a woman's right to go on maternity leave. That is very clear under the law. It will be specifically prescribed, under the legislation, that an officeholder will step into the shoes of an employee and will have the same rights as an employee in the specific area of maternity leave. I hope that is a fairly black-and-white issue.

Second, we want to widen the scope significantly under the regulations. Indeed, we have done do over the past number of months in terms of supporting councillors in what they can claim through their vouched scheme, like our colleagues in the Seanad and the Dáil, which is 100% transparent and out in the open and of which a certain percentage is audited every year.

That scheme will cover, with 100% accuracy and clarity, the invoices of a woman who is employing someone or working with someone as a temporary measure. I do not see any concerns in that regard. Culture is a bigger challenge, as the Senator has alluded to. That is probably the biggest challenge when women make up 24% of councillors. This is especially stark in rural areas. I was down at the ploughing match yesterday and I had a look at See Her Elected's map of the country. Outside of the cities, the lack of female representation is very acute. That is where we have a lot of work to do. In some local authorities around the county, there are only one or two female councillors. Cultural change is the bigger thing. It is hard to institute a redress mechanism for that. We are going to be very clear that this will be a primary legislative right for women. It will be triggered upon a woman going on maternity leave. She will have the 26 weeks and the option of an additional 16.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I take the Minister of State's point that it is a very different type of relationship. It is not a straightforward employer-employee relationship and does not enjoy all of the attendant rights of that relationship. It needs careful monitoring and I know that See Her Elected will do that and I have no doubt that the Minister of State will as well. It must be ensured. It is about the subtle loss of opportunity, the subtleties in how this performed and that cultural piece. If we were to see a lack of any cultural move on the part of a local authority at some time further down the road, there would need to be some sort of penalty built in because the relationship between members of a local authority and that authority and its employees can be almost adversarial. There are subtleties to that which are evident in some of the stories I have heard around the country. I would like us to be sure to have a review mechanism as to how this is operating built in because there is no automatic recourse to employment equality legislation. In straightforward employer-employee situations, the area of maternity is where most litigation related to discrimination arises. Without that straightforwardness, a review of the cultural change will be needed.

Deputy Peter Burke

I am happy to take those comments on board. As the committee prepares its pre-legislative scrutiny report, I will remain absolutely open to ideas and suggestions regarding this Bill including any additions or safeguards the members want included. I have done this in a very open manner because this is for us all. This legislation is an attempt to rectify a human rights issue and to ensure that women have that support. I hope it will stand for those in future generations who enter politics. That is my key message. I acknowledge the spirit in which it has been taken. It has been totally non-partisan and apolitical. I genuinely appreciate that.

Chairman

Deputy Gould has stepped out for a moment. I will go to Deputy McAuliffe and then return to Deputy Gould.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

We are being collegiate this morning. We can swap around. I welcome the legislation. It is interesting that, in the room next door, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Gender Equality is meeting to discuss the implementation of the recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly. In the context of those efforts to improve the rights of women through that process, it is remarkable that there was still a category of women who were not eligible for maternity leave. Putting that to rights is a really important step.

The role of the local authorities is very interesting. We have changed it, including in the last 12 months, but for many of us in this room it was effectively a job with a salary of €16,000 a year. When the financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, cuts were implemented, I remember asking the chief executive's office what the equivalent cut was for other staff members in the local authority who were on the same rate. At the time, councillors were paid at a quarter of the rate for Senators. The chief executive's office told me that the authority had no employees who were paid as little as councillors. The porters in the office who greeted us at the front door were paid more and had a better pension scheme than many of the councillors who were coming in and out of City Hall. That is not meant to in any way denigrate the rights of the porters but it demonstrates where the councillor was in the scheme of things. We have made great strides in improving the salaries of local authority members. If the media covers that, it is always about politicians getting more pay but, of course, we all know that is not the case. When you give people more pay, it means they can provide more of their time. It is not that people are part-time. I have never agreed with councillors being referred to as part-time because they always end up juggling something else. Improvements to pay and conditions for councillors are really important for our local democracy because, in their absence, unelected officials would be left making decisions. If councillors are not sufficiently resourced to have the time and space to hold those officials to account, you will not get the democracy that is needed. There are a number of unusual provisions in this Bill, including the idea of being able to substitute another into your place. People might think that is a bit undemocratic but it gives the maximum flexibility to the member who is taking the leave.

Are there any restrictions regarding the party issuing a certificate for a replacement such as there are in the case of co-option? In the case of a co-option, a party must issue a certificate to say that a given person is the party candidate. The council no longer votes on this although there was a time when it had to. In the case of Independent members passing away, in some local authorities it is possible to name a nominator. How would it differ for an Independent member? Is it entirely within the control of the councillor in question? While I agree with a party mandate for co-option, in this case the individual councillor must be given the exclusive ability to nominate a successor because that replacement is for such a short period of time and because such strong working relationships will be required. That might be worth clarifying.

I am always happy to speak on behalf of councillors so I will use this opportunity to encourage the Minister of State to go further. Local authority members have a local authority members gratuity scheme. Many members find themselves listed in the newspaper as having received a lump sum of a certain amount when they turn a certain age but if you go to the market with €30,000 or €40,000 and try to get a pension scheme, you will probably get a pension of approximately €8 or €9 a month. We could go further. We could make local authority members eligible for the occupational pension schemes of their authorities. They may also be members of occupational pension schemes through other employment. That is something each member can decide on. I can think of plenty of councillors including Councillor Christy Burke, an independent member on Dublin City Council, who have given decades of service. It seems wrong that Councillor Burke is not able to join the occupational pension scheme of an organisation he has dedicated so much of his working life to. I apologise for naming Councillor Burke as an individual but he commands a lot of respect across the spectrum. There are many councillors in that position and who could easily join the occupational pension scheme if some changes were made. There is an argument to be made in this regard. The local authority deducts USC from councillor's payments. The Pensions Authority states that, where a body deducts USC and other taxes from a salary, that body is deemed to be an employer and therefore has pension responsibilities. It is one further step the Minister of State could take. I only mention it given that he has been so progressive in extending other rights to councillors. It would be one further step. I apologise for leaving the Minister of State so little time.

Chairman

We are going to stick to the legislation before us but the Minister of State may want to comment on Deputy McAuliffe's contribution.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

It is always worth encouraging the Minister of State.

Deputy Peter Burke

I hear what the Deputy is saying. In the first instance, we have engaged with all of the political parties on this Bill.

I feel they are going to work with women. Women are first here with regard to who they want to take up the position as temporary substitute. I do not see political parties standing in the way of who they would nominate. I hope I am not being naive in that but I genuinely do not think so, having engaged with them. I have huge confidence in and am very proud of all the 949 councillors in this country. They are very genuine people and they will facilitate the spirit of this legislation. If we have to get more prescriptive in future, we will do so but it will be a very bad day for this country if we have to.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

A party could, for example, have a convention for a temporary substitute. That would be a very retrograde step. It would look like democracy but-----

Deputy Peter Burke

Absolutely.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

We should be clear that a party certificate is not required.

Deputy Peter Burke

That is what I am getting from the engagement I have had with the national parties. The Deputy mentioned the gratuity. It has been a very talked about issue among councillors. I always want to be very straight and clear with local authority members about what I can and cannot do. I was very honest with them because the Moorhead report recommended setting up a committee to look at pension rights and entitlements of councillors into the future. That is what we have done. The Moorhead report also noted that a benefit of gratuity can be triggered from the age of 50 in terms of not paying into a pension scheme. There are very significant challenges in that path to go through with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We have committed to establishing a committee. We are going to work through it with the AILG and the councillor bodies and we will see what we can come up with at the end of that process. I wanted to be very honest with people that I do not see that happening in the immediate term. I wanted to be very clear on that. I do not want to build up expectations that something is going to happen when it is not.

Deputy Paul McAuliffe

Today, ICTU told the Joint Committee on Gender Equality that women will become more involved in sectors where they are underrepresented if there is better pay and conditions. That adds to it.

Deputy Peter Burke

That is why we have increased the pay to ensure we get that better participation and the flexibility. I was at the AGM for Westmeath County Council. One lady had logged on remotely and another gentleman was recuperating in hospital. There can be pros and cons when meetings are so accessible but there is that flexibility built into the system.

Deputy Thomas Gould

It is very rare that we sit in this committee room and all agree on something. It is a first for me since becoming a Deputy. On a serious note, I hear what the Minister of State is saying about all political parties and none coming together. This has been a huge gap and women have been discriminated against for so long. I welcome this Bill. It is a big step forward and I know the Minister of State plans on going further again. We will engage with him and the Department to bring in the best legislation and the best regulations we can.

One of our councillors on Cork City Council, Fiona Kerins, recently went on maternity leave and had to return early. She felt she had no other choice because of the position she was in. We do not want that. I listened to the Minister of State outline the position. He has taken that on board and I welcome that. He also spoke about sick leave. A very good friend of mine, the late Dave McCarthy, was an Independent councillor. He was sick with cancer. To be fair, every councillor and the officials in the council did everything they could but because of the regulations, they were limited in what they could do. That is another part of this that I welcome. We have the maternity part of it but we also have the sick leave part. It just shows how far behind we were. We will look forward now and we will try to be constructive.

In 2014 I was looking for a running mate in the local elections. I spent a year looking and I could not get someone. I spoke to women within the party and women outside it who were involved in community groups or sporting organisations. These were women who were well able to speak and attend meetings as they had done it in their own different groups but when they looked at politics they made a point about the amount it was going to take for them to get involved. A lot of them were not willing to give that commitment, especially if they had young families or were planning on having a family. This is an opportunity to get more women involved. My political party is looking to the next local and European elections. At the moment we are trying to encourage more and more females to get involved in the party and to consider putting their names forward. Even though we have very strong female representation as a political party, we still have more work to do. We recognise that. That is why this Bill is another step forward in trying to encourage more women to get involved in politics.

One of the concerns I have about this legislation is that it will allow each local authority to have its own skew on it. Deputy McAuliffe referred to people passing away or stepping down from the council. Different councils have different regulations for that. I was recently dealing with a homeless family. I had to bring the case to the Minister's attention. The big local authorities, the more urban ones, tend to have one set of regulations for homeless people while the rural ones have different regulations. Cork City Council had one set of regulations to deal with people in homelessness but Cork County Council had adopted a different type. Cork County Council was not the only council that adopted the alternative approach. Different councils had different approaches, which I do not think is right. If we are bringing in rules and regulations around maternity leave and sick leave and the procedures we need to put in place, they should be set across all 31 local authorities. It is not a criticism but maybe it is something the Minister of State and the Department will look at. I am not saying the councillors will do it for the wrong reasons but the Minister of State made a point there about trying to change the culture of an organisation. Different local authorities will be in different positions. That is something I would like to see more certainty on.

Looking forward, the Minister of State will be bringing forward more regulations. Is it fair to assume that when he has these new regulations he will come in here and present them to the members so we can go through them with him, discuss and scrutinise them?

Deputy Peter Burke

We are happy to attend any time to seek the committee's advice on the changes we are bringing through. We look forward to the report on pre-legislative scrutiny of this current Bill but as we go through other significant changes for reforming the way local authority members go about their business, we will be happy to keep the committee informed and seek its views at every juncture along the way. It is amazing. The Moorhead report is one of those reports that has been hanging around so long. One thing that shocked me was that this is so universally accepted among our citizens. A lot of people were worried that a slant would be put on it that this is a pay rise for politicians. People were shocked when they saw how lowly paid councillors were in society versus the amount of work they do and the number of committees they are on. They are the closest arm of local government to communities.

Schedule 10 of the Local Government Act 2001 sets the casual vacancy process. The Deputy may have a point on this matter. I will have to have a look at it. As I said at the outset, from engaging with political parties and our 949 local authority members, I do not see an issue whereby councillors will conspire against or try to stand in the way of a woman being nominated. However, I have seen different standing orders in other local authority areas around Independent candidates putting forward a replacement if they resign. That is something we are having a look at as part of a wider piece of work in the Department because it was brought to our attention in a case during the summer. I would be happy to look at the example of the homeless family the Deputy raised to see how we can better frame or advise local authorities on their standing orders.

Senator Maria Byrne

I thank the Minister of State for coming before the committee to discuss this all-important issue this morning. I compliment him and his team, especially Laura Mannion, on their level of engagement with councillors, and I have been hearing about this from councillors throughout the country. I served for 17 years on a local authority, and when I first started off there, were three females out of 21. Currently, in our local authority, there are six females out of 40. In that respect, there are four of them from the city and two from the rural areas. That certainly is in line with the Minister of State's statement.

On the issue of maternity leave, using our local authority in Limerick as example, we have four young females and the two other females have been there for a considerable length of time and their families are grown up. This is a template to encourage more participation by females in terms of local authorities. I have seen that even at training courses we have run ourselves and through our engagement with young potential candidates. It was a stumbling block. In terms of the temporary replacement, I know it will be up to the person who is taking the maternity leave, their party or whatever, to appoint the temporary person, but would it be preferred that it would be another female? Can that be suggested?

Second, that councillors will qualify for and get a payment is very important, because for so long they did not qualify for anything. I thank the Minister of State for all he did to bring councillors into the scheme and that their PRSI now means something for them, because for a long time people were not aware there was no benefit from the class K.

On the temporary substitute, is there any limit on the length of time for which the person can take the leave of absence or is it open-ended? I am afraid that I have to go to another committee for a quorum so I will have to listen back to the answers.

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank Senator Maria Byrne. It is 26 and 16 weeks for maternity leave and it is 18 months for illness if somebody is very sick and needs that support. We are happy to work with the Senator on any suggestions she has. For the individual who is going on maternity leave, it should be their choice. That is how we are framing this policy piece around this legislative change. It would be their choice as to who would represent them on the local authority, because it is a very personal thing to go on maternity leave. Someone needs to trust the person they will seek to discharge their duties for their community. If that trust were to be taken away from women, that would be a regressive step. Women tell me that when they are making this choice, they may decide to carry on, and many are pushing for the administrative supports, which are given. They may decide to carry on doing their functions but with a slightly lighter workload by having that support. That is why that piece is so important.

As I said, if we see any stress points or this mechanism being in any way thwarted at a local authority level, we will stand ready to take action. We will rely on all our Deputies, councillors and Senators to keep us informed on that, because it is apolitical. I want to stress that, right across the political divide, everyone has been helpful with suggestions in framing this legislation

Senator Victor Boyhan

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials from the Department and to thank them. I will not say too much about this circular and statement, other than that I very much welcome it. I acknowledge the Minister of State's enormous and progressive work to support councils across the board. I like that emphasis he has put on collaboration across those in parties and those who are not, which is where local government is at its best. There is great collaboration across local government in Ireland by groups which may have more geographical connection than political connection, which is important. Anything that supports councillors in their work in local government is important. This is only one aspect of the jigsaw in terms of supporting councillors. The Minister of State has dealt with pay and conditions and there are ongoing issues there.

There is also the issue of mental health. There are there are many reasons people have to step down. Yesterday, I looked at the number of councillors who have stood down. There is a much higher proportion of women than men, which is another interesting indicator, who have left since the elections in 2000. I take a personal interest in ringing them up, particularly if I know them, and asking them why. I spoke to a woman the other day who said it was because of the physical stress of it. There is the issue of social media and there were many challenges around local government. They thought, “Do I really need this?", given they might have a family and other things to be doing and that they could be doing a part-time job and getting twice the amount of money. There are many reasons people have to take a break from a job. It occurs in teaching and in all professions, and this is no different. We need always to bear that in mind. However, I genuinely thank the Minister of State, who was a councillor for many years and became embedded and steeped in local government in that time. He can see the issues and brings that to this Bill. The Association of Irish Local Government, AILG speaks well and strongly of the Minister of State and his proactive engagement with it, and I acknowledge that.

My parting words are to say this is great, but sometime in the near future, it is to be hoped, this committee, the Minister of State, his Department and his officials will start to focus on how we can devolve more powers, not fewer, to local authorities, our city and county councils. We are taking powers away from them regularly. For example, yesterday in the Oireachtas through the Higher Education Authority Bill, we took sitting city and county councillors off the education authorities. Their veto was blocked in terms of disposing their properties to the Land Development Agency. There may be good reasons for that, some of which are logistical or long term, but if we are talking about supporting local government and local councils, we need to start talking now about devolving more powers from central government to local authorities. Commensurate with those additional powers come responsibilities, and I acknowledge that, too. I know the Minister of State is keen, and he has constantly emphasised, that if we are going to give more powers to local councillors, responsibilities will come with those, as will supports and further training so that they can become better councillors and better practitioners in advocating real democracy and real engagement on the ground within local communities.

I will finish on that. I thank the Chair for his indulgence as I went off on a strand. Ministers come and go but we are indebted to a committed, professional core personnel within the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. There have been big changes there in recent years. I acknowledge those who have moved on and those who are moving up because this committee has a good, strong relationship with the Custom House. I have been a member of this committee for a good number of years and I think it is a good relationship and one we need to continue. Well done to all involved.

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank Senator Boyhan for his kind words. He is dead right that there is a huge issue with retention throughout the country. I have seen some very good local authority members who, unfortunately, have left the field. We are at a loss without their service, which was very important, and I saw that my own local authority area. In terms of mental health, the Local Authority Members Association,LAMA, is doing significant work in providing counselling. I was amazed and delighted to see the AILG partnering up with UCC for degree programmes to upskill councillors. They are at the cutting edge, arming them with what they need to discharge their duties as local authority representatives.

We have got into a much better space in local government, but we all can do better, including me, in terms of how we talk to one another in public discourse. We see, especially for women councillors, that some of the stuff that is put up on social media is horrific. When we talk to one another in committees, the Chamber or wherever, we have to be mindful of that. Again, 99.9% of those who are in politics, whether they are in national or local politics, are in it to do their very best for their community. We all may have different views, but how we articulate those views is important in a modern democracy, in discourse and in how that is reflected on social media. I know the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill is weaving its way through the Oireachtas, but there is so much more we can do in that space. It will be a significant challenge. From having spoken to women going for seats in election and from many engagements over recent months, sometimes they do not have that extra confidence to go forward and put a name on the ballot paper because they are afraid of that extra scrutiny or that they will not know everything from A to Z.

One lady, quoting another individual who recently spoke, said that many mediocre men have been involved in politics through the years and to please give her the chance to vote for mediocre women. I thought that was a good line. We need to give women confidence. It is hard to be in politics but supports exist and are getting better. We need to encourage more women to get involved in politics. I will do anything I can to continue on that path.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I missed one point, which the Minister of State prompted me to think about again. Ageism is alive and well in politics. I spoke to a woman before the summer who is a teacher and just retired as the principal of a primary school. She is steeped in her own community and as a former principal of a national school for 30 years. She is involved in the GAA. She did major fundraising for the hospice. She ticks all the boxes. Ask a busy person to do something and that person will do it. She told me that she could not run and asked who would want her. With all the skills, knowledge, networking and contacts that she had, she did not feel there was a place for her to run for local government. She said she was 65 or 66. I said there was no age bar on it. We often hear about bringing new people and new women into politics. I am all for bringing new men, women and diverse people and cultures into politics. Let us not forget that there are older people who rightly, understandably feel they have a lot to offer. We need to support them. I do not want to hear that language used. I do not see the pictures. One has to see it to believe it. I do not see the marketing. Having been a councillor for 30 years does not mean one has to give up at the next local elections.

There is much emphasis on the newness, but let us also remember and value experienced people. Let us remember that people who have had a full life in the community have much to offer to local councils. We sometimes lose that in our discussions when we talk about the new local elections, the new way and the new people. We always want new people, but we want experienced people too. We want loads of new people to come into politics at 65 or 70. Why not? It is to be representative of our communities and the diversity within them. That would really strengthen local government. I ask the Minister of State to bear that in mind and the promotion of how we can engage as widely as possible with new and experienced people coming in, staying, and continuing to serve if they are able and want to.

Deputy Peter Burke

I am happy to take that on board. I have often spoken about retention during my tenure at the Custom House. The council chamber needs to reflect the society that it serves in gender, diversity, age and all other strands. It needs to reflect all sectors of society, whether business owners, teachers or community workers and all other avenues of life that make up society. Our aim in life as the Dáil or Seanad is to have the Chambers reflect the societies and communities that they serve. We are all working together to try to achieve that. It is a challenge, but we have to keep trying.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I listened to what Senator Boyhan said. The Minister of State has introduced a progressive Bill. I ask him to consider what Senator Boyhan said. I worked full time for 12 years when I was a councillor. I know other councillors who are full-time councillors. I was lucky to have the support I had from my wife, family, circle of friends and party to be able to do what I did. I am not sure if other people would be able to do that. I remember my wife writing speeches or press releases for me when sitting in the kitchen with a cup of tea after the kids went to bad. There are probably many councillors who have good relationships and support from family and friends, as well as their parties. I could pick up the phone to Mick Nugent and others, tell them I was thinking of doing something, and ask what they thought of it. Many people do not have that support. The Minister of State talked about bringing forward administration support. Should the Minister of State look at that? Trying to encourage more people to get involved in local politics is a challenge. The local elections are coming up fast. Some people will go forward, but are they the right people? Are they the diverse people who are needed? A social media Bill is progressing through the Dáil. Horrific comments and threats were made, especially to women.

We need to make politics as accessible as possible and to encourage more people to get involved. I encourage the Minister of State to do that. I imagine he will have support to push through new regulations. We have a challenge ahead. Politics is getting harder. Sometimes that is our own fault and we can be very adversarial. There are lessons for us too. To get more people involved, we have to make it easier and to encourage people.

Deputy Peter Burke

Absolutely. We are trying to go down that avenue with the reforms in local authorities. I remember when we had our first baby. I was in a local authority. Working full time and trying to hold down council duties too was very challenging. The office that I worked for was close to the council chamber. I had an employer who was willing to give me a little slack to go to the council chamber, but, being honest, not every employer is willing to do so. Deputy Gould is right that social media has added a new dimension. I remember when social media was starting to come to prominence at the current scale in 2009. I remember that Twitter was used a fair bit. We have seen a significant change and penetration into communities. It is a useful tool to spread information, but regulating negativity is a significant challenge for society. How we talk to one another on social media is another issue. We need to have respect for everyone, no matter what walk of life they are from. I do not have all the answers. I was probably only leaving Bebo at the time Facebook was coming out and deciding what to do politically. Those were interesting times.

Chairman

I conclude by thanking the Minister of State for introducing this legislation. He can see the general consensus that this is good. The wide stakeholder engagement has helped in getting that consensus. This is good for local democracy because it supports members of local democracies to do their jobs and to enjoy maternity leave at an important time. I echo the words of Senator Boyhan about giving more responsibility, autonomy and accountability in decision-making to local authorities. Senator Boyhan is always a fierce defender of local democracy. I agree with much of what he has said. We will produce our pre-legislative scrutiny report now. We will not take too long about that.

Deputy Peter Burke

I appreciate that.

Chairman

We will get it back to the Minister of State so he can proceed with bringing the Bill through the Oireachtas. While we have legislation and regulations, it might be beneficial to think about guidelines or advice for local authorities on councillors returning from maternity leave and what facilities or other measures a council could put in place.

Deputy Peter Burke

That is a fair point.

Chairman

Somebody mentioned that councils are historically male-dominated. The Minister of State mentioned the lack of female representation around the country. Guidelines on that would be useful. The last thing people want is to come back after six months of maternity leave and to go straight back into a difficult job. Guidelines could advise people to talk to their chief executives about the provision of facilities, attending hybrid meetings and so on. If the Minister of State could take that on board, that would be helpful. I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending.

Deputy Peter Burke

I thank the Chairman.

Chairman

I thank members for their contributions.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.49 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 29 September 2022.