JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION díospóireacht

Job Creation and Business Start-up Schemes: Discussion

Chairman

I welcome Ms Clare Dunne, assistant secretary; Mr. William Parnell, principal officer; Mr. Eamonn McHale, principal officer; and Ms Helen Curley, principal officer, competitiveness and jobs division at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. I also welcome Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin, chief director of innovation, commercialisation and investment at Enterprise Ireland, and Mr. Brendan McDonagh, manager of planning and influencing agenda at IDA Ireland. I thank members and delegates for attending today's briefing on current and future proposals for job creation and business start-up schemes, as well as reform of the county and city enterprise boards. This is an important subject and I am glad we are dealing with it at our first meeting in September. I look forward to working with those in attendance.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I ask Ms Dunne to begin the briefing. Members may ask questions thereafter.

Ms Clare Dunne

I thank the joint committee for the invitation to discuss job creation and business start-up schemes, with a particular focus on the county and city enterprise boards. As it will be aware, the Government has set job creation as one of its key priorities in the programme for Government. The role of the Government is not to create jobs but to create an environment in which companies can grow and jobs can be created by entrepreneurs. It is important, too, in the current difficult environment being experienced by businesses, that a focus is placed on maintaining existing jobs.

The Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation plays a central role in delivering on the Government's objectives with regard to job creation. It is supported in this objective by the enterprise development agencies, Enterprise Ireland, IDA Ireland, the county and city enterprise boards and Shannon Development. Forfás also plays an important role in providing policy analysis, advice and support on enterprise, trade, science, technology and innovation matters. In addition, the work of Science Foundation Ireland underpins the job creation activities of Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland.

The committee has received summary information on the schemes operated by the enterprise development agencies. Links to the supports available to businesses for job creation and productivity can be found on the Department's website. If the committee has specific questions about any of these schemes, my colleagues and I will endeavour to answer them today. The schemes are reviewed and adapted on a regular basis to ensure they are meeting the needs of companies operating in Ireland. The Department and its agencies are carrying out a comprehensive evaluation of all the key enterprise programmes to ensure their continued relevance and effectiveness.

The client groups of the various agencies vary from indigenous microenterprises to foreign multinational companies. Depending on their client group, the agencies' supports focus on supporting entrepreneurship and business start-ups, promoting exports, and enhancing the productivity and competitiveness of both indigenous firms and overseas companies based in Ireland.

Enterprise Ireland provides direct supports for Irish companies at all stages of development to foster job creation and export growth. Its programmes offer a range of assistance in the broad categories of company growth, exploring new opportunities, capability building, high potential start-ups, seed and venture capital programmes, and research collaboration and commercialisation. In 2010 Enterprise Ireland client companies created 8,193 new jobs, bringing the total number employed in Enterprise Ireland companies to 137,241. Enterprise Ireland's global allocation for 2011 is €307 million, which includes capital, administration costs, some funding from the national training fund and some from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for the food sector.

IDA Ireland's objective is to attract high quality foreign direct investment projects to Ireland and to more firmly embed existing FDI companies in the economy, thereby generating as many new jobs as possible each year and maintaining existing jobs. The agency provides grants for client companies to support capital investment, research and development, training and employment. To address the need to maintain jobs in Ireland, IDA Ireland is actively encouraging its clients to engage strongly in transformation initiatives and assisting them in programmes to improve company-wide competitiveness; enhance the use of new technologies; grow the skills of the business; engage in research, development and innovation; develop new business processes; and make company operations more energy efficient. IDA client companies created almost 11,000 new jobs in 2010. In 2011, 50 IDA investments have been announced with the potential to employ at least 4,500 people. IDA Ireland's budget for supports to industry in 2011 is €93 million. That is its capital or grant allocation. Adding in current and administration expenditure, the total allocation for 2011 is €132 million. I can provide complete figures as we have a revised table for committee members.

Shannon Development is responsible for supporting foreign and indigenous companies in the Shannon free zone and provides similar supports to those that IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland offer to their clients. Companies supported by Shannon Development created 362 new jobs in 2010 and support approximately 6,000 jobs in the zone. The agency has been allocated €3.6 million in Exchequer funding to support enterprise in 2011. This is separate from Shannon Development's operation costs which are met from its own resource income.

The county and city enterprise boards deliver supports to facilitate the start-up and development of sustainable microenterprises which can develop over time into strong export entities and provide employment locally. The priorities for the boards in 2011 are to assist existing microenterprises in the survival and growth of their businesses, to assist new start-ups to the greatest possible extent, and to continue to focus on the stimulation of entrepreneurship locally. The boards provide business start-up grants, business expansion grants and feasibility and innovation grants which are designed to assist promoters with researching market demand for a product or service and examining its sustainability. They also provide soft supports, including mentoring programmes, start-your-own business programmes, general business training, management development training and the schools enterprise education programme. The total budget allocation for the boards in 2011 is €27.242 million, of which €15 million is capital expenditure and the balance is administration expenditure, including some soft supports. This represents a strong investment in the microenterprise sector, notwithstanding the additional level of demand on CEB services that has been generated in the current difficult economic climate. Some 4,433 new jobs were created in CEB-supported companies in 2010. At the end of last year, 32,910 people were employed full time in CEB-supported companies, while a further 11,462 were employed in a part-time or seasonal capacity.

Access to finance and credit has been identified as a major issue for small businesses in the past couple of years and continues to be a concern. As the committee knows, the Government has taken measures to restructure and recapitalise the banking system to ensure it provides for substantial new lending in the economy. The Department of Finance, the Central Bank and the Credit Review Office are rigorously monitoring the banks' activities to ensure credit is available to borrowers who meet reasonable credit standard requirements. Separately, the Department is actively working on the introduction of a temporary partial credit guarantee scheme which was announced in the Government's jobs initiative in May. This targeted scheme will be aimed at commercially viable businesses which can demonstrate repayment capacity but cannot secure credit facilities. The scheme is in the design stage and further details will be announced before the end of October.

Another component of addressing industry's finance needs that the Minister is putting in place is the microfinance fund. Getting access to working capital is critical for start-up microbusinesses and early stage micro or sole traders. We are working on arrangements for the establishment and operation of a microfinance fund which is being developed in consultation with the relevant stakeholders. The aim is to formalise proposals for the Government's consideration in the context of budget 2012.

A further measure to improve cash flow for SMEs is the requirement from 1 July for the Health Service Executive, local authorities and all other public sector bodies, apart from the commercial semi-State bodies, to pay their suppliers within 15 days of receipt of a valid invoice. This should improve businesses' cash flow and enhance their operational capability. We will monitor implementation of the measure closely in the coming months. The Department is also examining how SMEs' access to public procurement opportunities can be improved. In this context, the Minister has established a steering group chaired by his Department to examine how barriers to accessing procurement can be overcome. The steering group includes the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform which has overall responsibility for public procurement policy, and also the National Procurement Service and Enterprise Ireland. The steering group will report progress to the Minister regularly. The small business advisory group which was established in June 2011 and is chaired by the Minister of State with responsibility for small business, Deputy John Perry, will also play a key role in identifying the issues that need to be addressed to support small business and realise the job potential of the sector, and ensuring action is pursued in all identified areas.

In addition to the job creation supports I have outlined, the Department is actively examining the potential for job creation in the emerging sectors that have been identified as holding particular potential for Ireland, including health and life sciences, silver technology, cloud computing, digital games and the green economy. Achieving the job creation potential of these sectors will require action and co-ordination across a number of Departments. We are in regular contact with other key Departments in this regard. The Cabinet sub-committee structure provides a useful mechanism to overcome any obstacles that need to be addressed to achieve progress on a cross-departmental basis.

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to make this presentation. My colleagues and I will be happy to answer any questions they may have. If there are any details we cannot provide today, we will supply them in writing within a few days.

Chairman

Thank you, Ms Dunne, for your presentation.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

I have two initial questions. First, Ms Dunne stated Enterprise Ireland client companies had created 8,193 jobs last year, and that the relevant figure for IDA Ireland was almost 11,000. How many jobs supported by Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland were lost during the same period?

Second, has a decision been made yet about the future role of Shannon Development? How does its record of job creation compare with those of the larger agencies relative to the amount of money spent by the State? I realise some of the budget is met from its own resources, but what is the position in relation to what it costs the taxpayer per job?

Ms Clare Dunne

For 2010 IDA Ireland recorded job losses of 9,545; Enterprise Ireland recorded losses of 13,548, while Shannon Development recorded losses of 616. The Deputy did not ask about the county enterprise boards, but to complete the picture I can tell him that they recorded job losses of 4,961.

The future role of Shannon Development is essentially a matter for the Minister who will consider various options in the context of his discussions at Government level, looking across all Departments and State agencies. This is something the Government will be considering in the round. I have received no particular indication on the future role of Shannon Development that I can convey to the Deputy today.

In terms of comparing Shannon Development's record on job creation with that of the other bodies, the Deputy will be more aware than most that the scale of its intervention is limited to the Shannon free zone, where it currently employs some 6,000 people. Its Exchequer drawdown is quite low - €3.6 million last year, with which it created 360 jobs. I will get back to the Deputy with information on the cost per job at Shannon Development; I understand it is just over €7,000 per job.

Deputy John Halligan

In a similar vein to Deputy O'Dea's question, what does Ms Dunne say to the observation that it seems more jobs are being lost than created? I understand we are spending some €307 million, plus €37 million, out of which we have created 8,000 jobs and lost 11,000. That does not seem to represent good value for money. In the case of my own county of Waterford, of the 193 visits by prospective investors in 2007-2010, only six were brought to Waterford by IDA Ireland.

Access to finance is a matter of great difficulty and concern for small businesses. Will Ms Dunne comment on the partial credit guarantee scheme that was announced by the Government recently? I understand it is aimed at commercially viable businesses which can demonstrate a repayment capacity. However, for most people seeking start-up finance to establish a small business, it is difficult to demonstrate a repayment capacity initially. All the available statistics show that the vast majority of people who seek finance to set up a small business do not receive it. How difficult are we making it for people who come to the Department with a viable business plan but who need time to show their capacity to meet repayments? The banks are still not lending money to small businesses, with the result that more than 1,200 went to the wall last year and 60% of business owners say they cannot access finance. Is the credit guarantee scheme merely something written down on paper or will people be assisted in setting up small enterprises?

Ms Clare Dunne

On the question of job creation and job losses, the Deputy is correct that there was an overall net job loss last year - amounting to 4,785, according to the figures in front of me. However, it is important to point out that the agencies are very much focused on job retention. My colleagues from Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland will be able to offer further insights on this. It is a major part of the work they are doing, but they are also creating jobs. The bottom line is that 23,885 jobs were created last year in spite of the challenging economic climate. I accept that we have lost more jobs than we created, but I would suggest that if the agencies were not making the efforts they are, more jobs would have been lost. Job retention is a key part of their remit.

I ask Mr. Ó Móráin of Enterprise Ireland to expand on this, followed by Mr. McDonagh, after which I will deal with the Deputy's questions on access to finance.

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

The Deputy is correct that job numbers in Enterprise Ireland client companies declined by a net 5,300 last year, which is disappointing. The good news - if that is the correct phrase - is that in the previous year the figure was 18,000. Therefore, we are seeing a recovery. The reality is, as everybody knows, that it has been a desperate time for our clients. We were creating net jobs right up until 2007. In 2008, the impact of the recession began to be felt, 2009 was our worst year and 2010 was a year of recovery. We are seeing a continuing recovery this year and I am confident we will at least break even by year end.

The Deputy referred to County Waterford. There was a decline of 314 jobs in the county in the last year, but that followed a period where there was an overall increase in the last five or six years.

As Ms Dunne said, there are 137,000 people employed in the companies to which we provide support. We have focused in recent years on doing everything we can to help those companies to gain new markets in order to compensate for the markets they have lost in Ireland, focusing particularly on exports. However, everything we do is for jobs; the purpose of focusing on exports is to help companies increase sales and subsequently employ more people. Likewise, the objective of focus on research and development is to encourage companies to develop new products. Unless they sell additional products, they will not employ additional people.

We have been working extremely hard with our client companies. They are now through the worst of the recession, although there is no evidence as yet of a significant level of net job creation. However, I am confident we have reached break even.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

In terms of IDA output, we had a net increase of jobs of 1,500 in 2010. We are hopeful we will work towards that level or increase it this year. In regard to the specific point on the transformation of existing clients and working with the existing base, that is a very large part of the work we do today. We work with the existing clients to sustain their existing activities and to grow and develop that activity. A significant aspect of our new strategy involves assisting businesses to up-skill their workers, enhance their technology, invest in research and development and invest in energy efficiency activities. It is a combination or suite of activities and it involves a significant programme of work. It is about retaining what we have and then seeking to grow on that base.

The Deputy referred to site visits in County Waterford. From the numbers I was provided with, we had 19 site visits in the county 2010 and 2011 and we are hoping to have another this week. It is a challenge to put investment into regions and gateways, but it is a strong focus of the organisation and we continue to push it in every possible way.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I commend the delegates on outlining the shape and architecture of the new smart economy. That comes across very strongly in their presentation and is to be welcomed. We cannot stand still while the rest of the world moves on to embrace different categories of job creation.

I am somewhat annoyed that in the meetings we have had thus far - I raised this with the Minister at the meeting he attended - there has been no mention of the very significant numbers of people in the country who have no jobs. According to the Central Statistics Office, 14.4% of those currently out of work are long-term unemployed. We must find ways of focusing on this issue. Some of the initiatives the delegates referred to are exciting and it is critical they are all implemented, but people who are long-term unemployed are very distant from the downstream of what we are looking at today. One of the difficulties is that there are various bits and pieces of activity in several different Departments which seek to address the issue of long-term unemployment. However, it is not focused or strategic in nature. The committee is going to be obliged to devote a great deal of attention to the issue of jobs. I suggest, therefore, that at either our next meeting or the one after we consider particular strategies because the human and social waste to which long-term unemployment gives rise should not be tolerated or ignored, especially by this committee.

Ms Clare Dunne

It is not the policy responsibility of the Department per se, but the Minister, Deputy Bruton, is actively engaged in work which contemplates all aspects of the jobs agenda. He is very aware of the need to tackle the problem of unemployment and, in particular, long-term unemployment. As the Deputy stated, the more distant people become from the labour market, the more difficult it is to reintegrate them within it. In the context of initiatives relating to PRSI, training, activation and internships, a suite of measures - an announcement in this regard was made when the jobs initiative was launched - is in place. Those measures focus on the unemployed. The 29,000 training places were also announced when the jobs initiative was launched. These places include, as already stated, the internships. Approximately 1,000 placements already exist.

The challenge is to ensure that people who are long-term unemployed will not only be offered appropriate training courses but also that these courses will lead to job opportunities. There is a need, therefore, to match labour market needs with the jobs market. This is an issue of which we are very much aware and in respect of which we are in discussions with other Government Departments. In addition, it is dealt with on a regular basis by the Cabinet committee on economic recovery and jobs. The Deputy's point is well made and I agree with it. I am of the view that the matter is being tackled in a joined-up way.

Chairman

We will be meeting representatives from the Department of Social Protection either next week or the week after. How involved is the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation in designing new activation schemes? Who is leading the charge to develop new ideas? If the committee were to suggest four or five initiatives in respect of labour activation schemes, to which Department would it submit its ideas? How involved is the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation in that regard?

Ms Clare Dunne

It has to be dealt with in a joined-up way. We receive advice from the expert group on future skills needs, which meets under the auspices of Forfás. The latter is an agency which comes under the remit of the Department. I do not have personal responsibility in this area but I understand there is a subcommittee of the senior officials group on economic recovery and jobs which is charged, in the context of activation, with ensuring that the training places being developed and put in place actually match the needs of the economy. I can obtain for the committee a note on that matter in order to explain the steps we are taking and how we actually go about ensuring that we proceed in a joined-up fashion. I am not stating that the system in operation is absolutely perfect. Members will be aware that at one point the Department had responsibility for FÁS and the employment agenda. That is no longer the case and that responsibility is now divided between the Departments of Education and Skills and Social Protection. A great deal of work is being done to ensure that there is real joined-up thinking and action between those two Departments, with input from my Department at a policy level.

Deputy John Lyons

I wish to ask a question on county enterprise boards, CEBs. My reason for doing so relates to a particular incident. I am sure similar incidents have occurred in other places. What type of evaluation mechanisms are in place to ensure that the CEBs are doing what they are supposed to be doing? I was recently approached by a gentleman who had started up his own business and who was receiving some supports from a particular CEB. The individual in question was extremely critical of those supports and was able to provide me with a litany of examples of poor communication. In some instances, he did not even receive replies from the CEB in question. His e-mails were not responded to and staff took a very laissez-faire attitude to him when he visited the board’s offices. Despite the lack of support, his business is doing quite well. CEBs created 4,433 jobs this year but I am interested in discovering the number of jobs that were not created as a result of situations such as that to which I refer. How can the Department ensure that opportunities to create jobs are not missed? While the figures with which we have been provided are positive, they do not tell the whole story. I am extremely concerned with regard to situations such as that I have outlined arising in the future. As already stated, despite a lack of effort on the part of a particular CEB, the man I referred to is doing quite well and is exporting goods.

Ms Clare Dunne

As far as the Department is concerned, an experience such as that is both regrettable and inexcusable. When we hear about cases such as that which the Deputy outlined, we take action. If somebody is experiencing difficulty in engaging with a CEB or with another agency, we will take action and talk to the board or agency involved. My experience is that this is the exception rather than the norm. If, however, the Deputy wishes to pass on to us the details of the person to whom he referred, we will, as has been the case in the past, engage directly with the CEB to ensure that he is provided with every possible assistance appropriate to his needs. We need to be made aware of such instances. Perhaps Mr. McHale would like to comment on that matter.

Mr. Eamonn McHale

As Ms Dunne stated, from our experience this type of thing seems to be the exception. We do not receive many complaints in respect of how CEBs interface with clients. Generally, they are very well connected into their localities and try their hardest to assist individual applicants. From time to time, and as is the case with all interfaces with entities, I suppose personality issues arise and this causes difficulties. Within each board, there are formal appeals or complaints procedures whereby a matter can be elevated beyond the executive to the actual board itself. The boards take a very serious line in trying to investigate any complaints received. They will certainly be amenable to investigating complaints and, as Ms Dunne stated, the Department will obtain the facts in respect of such complaints. On occasion, the facts as they are initially received do not reflect those which exist when a matter has been fully investigated. I would not state that this is an issue which impacts broadly across the network. As Ms Dunne stated, it is probably the exception rather than the rule.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I thank our guests for their presentation. It was stated that 23,000 jobs were created last year. What type of jobs were created and what skill sets do those who obtained them possess? How sustainable are these jobs? Will our guests comment on the geographical spread in respect of the jobs in question?

Ms Clare Dunne

I will ask colleagues from Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland to comment on this matter. I have details in respect of some of the jobs relating to the efforts of Enterprise Ireland. These jobs are across all sectors and were created by agency-assisted companies. On IDA Ireland's side, they were created by multinationals which are involved in the production of medical devices and pharmaceuticals and by those which operate in the areas of financial services and ICT. Many of the jobs are in the services sector and some are in the manufacturing area. We maintain a focus on manufacturing. I accept that certain criticisms have been levelled at Government policy to the effect that we have neglected manufacturing and have instead focused on services. That is absolutely not the case. We have a focus on high-end manufacturing and services.

With Enterprise Ireland, the position is the same. Again, jobs were created in the services, ICT, software and digital gaming areas and some were created in financial services. These are the type of jobs that are being created. On the CEB side, the focus is on more micro-type jobs. Mr. McHale might comment on that aspect because he is in possession of details in that regard. Perhaps Mr. Ó Móráin and Mr. McDonagh might like to expand on the experience of their agencies in the area of job creation.

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

In 2010, the job gains were spread over a range of sectors, including the food industry. As members will be aware, this industry is, relative to previous years, doing quite well. There were almost 2,000 job gains in that sector in 2010. Gains were also made in the areas of engineering and ICT. The position in the alcohol and tobacco industries was flat and not much happened. Typically the jobs are being gained in the modern sectors, such as chemicals and pharmaceuticals, with the traditional sectors doing their best to hold their own. In terms of regional spread, the gains were quite evenly spread across the country. The Dublin and mid-east region gained 3,129, the south-west region gained 948, the south-east region gained 1,127 and the mid-west region gained 748. One would expect the Dublin and mid-east region to account for one third of the figure given its population relative to the rest of the country.

They assist with internationally traded services as well as manufacturing.

Deputy Joan Collins

I thank Ms Dunne for her report. Job creation is one of the most important of the debates we will hold over the coming period. I acknowledge the witnesses' claims to have created 23,000 jobs last year but that is a small figure in comparison to the almost 500,000 who are unemployed. We have to challenge the assertion in the document that the role of the Government is not to create jobs, but to foster the environment in which companies can grow and jobs can be created by entrepreneurs. That is not happening on the ground.

We have to open up the debate on the role that the Government can play in job creation. Vast areas of infrastructure in this country require attention, such as the green economy and insulating 1.6 million homes. We will have to be more inventive in creating jobs because we will not go anywhere on these small figures. The unemployment figure of 500,000 does not include those who are self-employed and not on the register. This committee will have to be more inventive in suggesting ways for the Government to create jobs and finding key areas of job creation. Private industry has a role to play but we are all beneficiaries of the creation of jobs by the Government and we are paid by the Government.

Chairman

The officials may not be able to answer that question as it relates to Government policy but it is something we can address as a committee. We are open to all suggestions for job creation and each of them will be investigated and sent on to the relevant Minister.

Ms Clare Dunne

I fully accept what Deputy Joan Collins is saying. The Department realises that the efforts of the enterprise development agencies will in no way solve the unemployment problem. It is not a silver bullet but every job created in the exporting sector creates a spin-off for the local economy in terms of secondary employment. The ratio depends on the sector but it approximates to 1:1. Downstream jobs are created in supplying multinationals and local demand for services.

The Government is aware that investments in critical infrastructure pay a jobs dividend. That was part of the announcement on the jobs initiative last May.

Contributors referred to insulation and retrofitting. That is happening but that alone will not solve the jobs crisis. It is important and it is creating valuable jobs in what we now call the green economy. Currently, the green economy employs just over 18,000 people and there is significant potential to grow that number in the future. The demand globally for green products and services is growing exponentially and we are aware that there are significant opportunities for exporters in other markets.

The point was made that the committee is focused on jobs. It is clear that it is not just the enterprise development agencies to whom it will look but all of the other factors that come together to entice people into the labour market or keep them on the dole.

The other issue we need to tackle is consumer demand because demand is flat. When people start spending money, which they are not doing at present, that will play a big part in creating jobs. The Deputy is correct. It needs to be looked at in an holistic manner.

Deputy Áine Collins

Ms Dunne might be able to give me some information on county and city enterprise boards, CEBs. Could she give a breakdown on where the money is being spent in terms of business expansion, feasibility innovation grants, training programmes and mentoring? Do we know where we are getting value? A total of 4,432 new jobs were created while 4,961 jobs were lost in the area. Clearly from an economic recovery point of view there are not enough entrepreneurs starting up. We are all aware of the number of people that are unemployed but there seems to be a market in certain areas and the agencies could consider supporting such enterprises. Is it evident where we are getting value?

Ms Clare Dunne

The first thing to say is that the demand for CEB supports is higher than in recent years because of the downturn and because people are seeking to set up their own business or expand a microbusiness.

We have undertaken a forensic examination of all of the supports to business. It began earlier this year and is ongoing. It is a big challenge because we are looking at the supports across all of the agencies. We are taking a thematic approach to the evaluation. To begin with, we began to look at the research, development and innovation programmes. That element of it commenced in May. At the moment we are looking at entrepreneurship and start-up supports, which includes Enterprise Ireland and the CEBs. That will give us a very good handle on the value for money we are getting and the effectiveness of the schemes. We expect the work to be completed by mid-November this year. Mr. McHale will provide more details because he is the expert on CEBs.

The Deputy referred to the interaction between Enterprise Ireland and the county enterprise boards, CEBs, on mentoring. We agree with the Deputy that mentoring is an incredibly valuable tool to support companies. It is also cost effective because while we give financial support to mentors it is very small and in many cases mentors are willing to work on a pro bono basis in any event. The CEBs use their own mentors and also draw on the Enterprise Ireland scheme. We support them in finding mentors.

Our view is that we want to expand rapidly the whole mentoring programme for a number of reasons. A key one is that mentoring enables experienced business people to be brought into contact with companies. That is incredibly valuable because it is the experience of other people that is of value to people owning businesses.

The second reason is that as budgets are cut back we have got to be more clever in the way we make use of resources. One of the valuable resources available is the willingness of people to work with companies at very low cost. Overall, mentoring is an area which has expanded in recent years but will be important for the future. The point the Deputy made about the amount of mentoring support available and so on is valid.

Chairman

Has any evidence or research been gathered on that because it is something many of us here have been harping on about for a long time? I welcome what Mr. Ó Móráin is saying but is there any proof that we can present to other people?

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Evidence of-----

Chairman

Of the effectiveness of mentoring.

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

The evidence we have is the feedback from the people in receipt of mentors. We have to work hard to make sure the mentor is relevant to the company and occasionally the question of chemistry arises, particularly with small companies, but the evidence we have is from surveys we have conducted, and we have reviewed the programme also, of the people who were mentored to see if they felt that the input, advice and sharing of experience they were getting from the mentors was positive. The evidence on that basis is strong.

It is difficult to connect job creation with any one input. The best we can do is ask the people who run the businesses whether they felt it was useful and, by and large, the feedback is very positive.

Chairman

There are surveys that show that.

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Yes.

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. McDonagh from IDA Ireland would like to come in on that.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

On retaining existing companies, a practical example to give the committee is a company in Ennis - Microsemi - which announced it was closing some time ago but through work between IDA Ireland and the other Government agencies, and working with the Irish management team to develop a business case, we managed to convince the corporation to reverse that decision and it is now actively recruiting and growing. While that is not always the case, every time there is a significant loss or announcement we try to work with the companies, and that is an example where we had significant success.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

I thank the witnesses for attending. I have a number of questions, the first of which might be difficult to answer. What is the cost per job generated across each sector because in straightened economic times we must get value for money? Second, part of that would be the way the witnesses' organisations support the retention of jobs but why was one of the employment subsidy schemes removed recently? I am aware it was part and parcel of an EU temporary framework but is there any other way we can subsidise that? We talk about job retention but we missed out in recent years because other countries provided subsidies to maintain people in employment, which works out cheaper than having them on dole queues. Do the witnesses have some schemes that would be different from those previously that we can use? If we have to go against the EU on this issue, perhaps we should. Other countries do.

Third, with regard to the CEBs, I was involved in a CEB. Some of them are excellent but some of them are a disaster. What recommendations is Mr. McHale making to the Minister with regard to the future of the CEBs?

On the other side, my county has run out of funding to support start-up schemes and I am aware that other counties have excess funds that are not being drawn down. Is it possible that we could give additional funding to counties actively trying to generate employment? During times of unemployment people begin to think differently. They come up with ideas, go to their CEB and if the idea is worth forwarding they find it difficult to get funding because there is no funding available for them. Is it possible that some of the good CEBs could get increased funding while the funding to those not using all of their funding could be reduced or stopped?

The last point has arisen on a number of occasions, although I do not know if it involves the witnesses' organisations. It concerns the monitoring of the schemes available through the Department of Social Protection such as internship and schemes in which employers get people off social welfare by paying them €50. The problem is that when the job is advertised it does not fit into a category. A peson told me recently that a company that moved furniture was looking for a web designer but he could not fathom why there was an internship for a web designer in a company that had a small web page. My own would be better than it. Is anyone monitoring those type of schemes? I do not know if that comes within the witnesses' remit.

Ms Clare Dunne

I will deal with the questions on the cost per job, the enterprise stabilisation fund and the employment support scheme, ESS. I will then hand over to Mr. McHale. I might ask Mr. Ó Móráin to supplement what I say on that, and Mr. McHale might take the CEB question.

In terms of cost per job, it varies from agency to agency. The calculations are broadly the same. The calculation is based on cost per job sustained over seven years. We do a rolling average calculation. The cost per job sustained for IDA is €14,287. For Enterprise Ireland it is €12,254. I can send the Deputy a page on this. For Enterprise Ireland it is €12,254 and for Shannon Development is €7,552. With regard to CEBs, the figures vary from region to region but the average is €5,760. Those are the average costs per job sustained. We take a seven-year view on that.

With regard to the employment support scheme and the enterprise stabilisation fund, members are aware that these were introduced some years ago when we applied for sanction to run them under the European Commission's temporary framework for state aid. Members will also be aware that the window for running these schemes in terms of state aid approval closed in December 2010. Therefore, the schemes, as they were constructed, are no longer in operation. That is not to say supports similar to these, certainly in terms of the enterprise stabilisation fund, cannot be availed of. Enterprise Ireland can still fund companies through its subhead concerning grants for industry. Similar supports can be given to those that were available under the funds in question. Just because the latter closed under EU state aid rules does not mean similar types of supports appropriate to a company cannot still be made available.

Mr. Ó Móráin will address the question on demand and the changing rule.

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

As Ms Dunne said, the enterprise support scheme could be availed of for a defined period. Members will be aware that a total of 93,000 jobs was supported directly and indirectly through it. The scheme has now expired and it is not possible, within state aid rules or in any way that I can imagine, to run such a scheme.

With regard to the ESF, Enterprise Ireland was allocated additional funding to invest in companies that were under pressure but which had a future. In total, we invested in 227 companies primarily using preference shares as the investment vehicle. Typically, we invest for five-year periods and expect a very high proportion of the money invested to be repaid to the Exchequer.

As Mr. Dunne said, following the expiry of the ESF, we have continued to work with companies under funding pressure but which have potential, particularly export potential. We can still invest in preference shares and continue to do so. The number of companies seeking such support has reduced considerably because companies have got through the worst of the recession. The issue facing all of us now is not so much the disappearance of many companies, although there are some disappearing, but the lack of growth in existing companies, with the consequence that no jobs are being created. We are continuing to make preference share investments and also utilising the full resources of our overseas offices to work with companies. As I stated, the real challenge is to support the companies in gaining additional sales. If they have cash flow problems, we can support them working very closely with the banks and help them identify potential markets and customers. Ultimately, however, if they cannot sell their product, there is not much anybody can do about it.

Ms Clare Dunne

I will ask Mr. William Parnell to speak briefly on internships and back-to-work schemes, and the monitoring thereof. Mr. Eamonn McHale will talk in more detail about the CEBs.

Mr. William Parnell

Deputy Lawlor referred to the internship scheme. The scheme is operated by FÁS and the Department of Social Protection. They have quite strict guidelines as to what types of positions will be accepted. They have refused to put some positions on the site where they felt they were not in accordance with the rules and guidelines under the scheme. They have even taken down positions that were advertised initially. It is important that FÁS receive feedback through the local FÁS office in regard to the case the Deputy described. If there are any abuses of the schemes, it is important that FÁS be made aware of them.

Mr. Eamonn McHale

I was asked a range of questions. If I do not answer them all, the Deputy may revert to me. The first concerns the funding issue. I do not necessarily accept that some of the CEBs are "disastrous", as described. It would be unfortunate if that type of language entered into the discussion. There is certainly a difference in performance from one to another and we are trying to address that. To call something a disaster is to use the wrong language in the current climate.

The central co-ordination unit within Enterprise Ireland monitors all the expenditure of the CEBs. Therefore, there is very tight control over when they draw down their funds, and they must ensure they spend funds on a quarterly basis before receiving the next funds. At the start of the year, each board is given a particular allocation to cover its administrative and grant costs. These have regard to experience of the boards and the particular circumstances of the counties involved.

One issue affecting the boards is the number of commitments they must carry over from one year to the next. Boards are obliged to have balances of zero at the end of the year but they can actually carry over commitments of 50% of their capital allocations into the next year. When grants are approved, there is usually a one-year tail for them to be drawn down. That is why commitments can be carried into the next year.

A certain bloc of allocations at the start of every year is pre-committed. This must be provided for in the allocation. On top of that is the free money people can use for new clients during the year. Given a cap on the amount of money received by any board, there will be circumstances in which boards may not be able to respond fully to the demands confronting them. They would try, however, to offer some advice in so far as they could.

About this time every year, there is a full review of the expenditure of each CEB. Where there is a likelihood of one not spending its entire allocation, what is left over is usually surrendered and redistributed to the network. There is capacity for those with higher demands and fewer resources to draw down the money. With the current allocations, the scope for this is relatively limited. Last year a very limited amount of money was redistributed. Obviously, the Minister would make efforts to try to secure additional funding where it could be obtained through savings in the Department. Last year, some additional funding was secured towards the end of the year. There is capacity to redistribute money from boards that are not spending to boards that have higher demand. This will continue to apply this year and in future years.

The Deputy asked about the restructuring of the CEBs. As this is a policy matter, it is for the Minister to determine. There are many strains in respect of the fact that there are 35 legally separate boards with their own administrative costs. One must also consider the impact of the employment control framework that applies to CEBs as a whole network. This impacts very differently in respect of vacancies in individual boards. Some boards have two members of staff while others have four or five and there is no capacity at present to redistribute them from one board to another. The Minister is considering the restructuring of the CEBs. He will address that in the context of the recommendations in the programme for Government, recommendations in the McCarthy report and the review of the Local Government Efficiency Review Group. The Minister is on record as saying the CEB system has served the country very well to date but that this is an opportune time to contemplate some restructuring of how the State delivers its support to the microenterprise sector at local level. Within that context, he is considering what future structure may be appropriate having due regard to his desire to not inhibit in any way the delivery of that service to the microenterprise clients and is conscious of the local delivery element that has been important to the sector.

Yes, absolutely.

Senator Averil Power

I thank the witnesses for the presentation and for their responses to the questions thus far. I wish to raise a couple of additional issues, the first of which pertains to survival supports for small and medium-size companies. The witnesses have provided a good outline of the supports available for companies that at least meet the criteria for getting off the ground and setting up new businesses, as well as with regard to subsequent expansion. However, there is an urgent need to help existing enterprises that are having difficulty in keeping open the doors. A lady who runs an excellent and highly successful small business spoke at our party function yesterday and she made the point that people with personal money management issues can approach MABS. Such people have somewhere they can visit to go through their income and expenditure and to get advice on managing creditors and keeping their personal finances going during the recession. However, there does not appear to be a similar facility available for small businesses. Are there plans to address this gap and help people to keep open their doors? Hopefully, they then will be able to return to the development agencies for expansion support at a later stage but the priority for many businesses at present is simply to keep open their doors.

With regard to community enterprise centres I have been supporting a local group that is trying to establish a business incubation centre in Dublin North-East and we had been looking at the community enterprise centre model to so do. Many unemployed people in that area have great skills and good business ideas and consequently, it would be worthwhile to have a location at which they could come together in a supportive environment to have access to the kind of support needed to nurture entrepreneurship and to get new viable businesses off the ground. However, I was surprised to learn that no funding is available for new community enterprise centres or at least that is what the aforementioned group has been told. The witnesses should provide more details in this regard because I agree with other members that in the current environment, it is a question in many cases of trying to support people to first get themselves back into a job.

It would be great if we can help individuals with a business idea to create one job each. It will prevent people from becoming unemployed in the long term. However, getting them to employ two or three other people each should be as big a priority at present as the work of IDA Ireland with larger companies. Perhaps MsDunne could confirm if it is the case that there is no money left for community enterprise centres, or if something will be done in that respect.

I support the comments by the Chairman and other members of the committee concerning locally traded services with the potential to create jobs. There is such high potential in the green economy and in exports. In the current environment, if somebody has the potential to create jobs in local services, we should examine that remit to bring in as many potential companies as possible. We should be less restrictive than we have been in previous years about the type of companies that get support.

Ms Clare Dunne

In terms of survival supports, much of the agencies' work involves engaging with companies that are in difficulties to help them to restructure, reorganise and refocus. A big part of what the agencies are doing concerns company survival. I will ask Mr. Ó Móráin to say a few words about what Enterprise Ireland does. That work includes mentoring and financial advice. There has been talk recently about the need for a money advice and budgeting service for small businesses. That idea has been floated and a few people have mentioned it, including Mr. John Trethowan. It is something worth considering. It is one of the ideas that emerged from a recent exercise that was overseen by the Department of Finance. Small businesses were surveyed concerning access to finance and engaging with financial institutions to see what sort of concrete measures would be of benefit to these companies. That matter is being considered, although I do not have an update as to where it is in the system. I think it is probably a good idea and we can track it for the committee to see where it stands.

On locally traded services, the Senator is right to say that, in the first instance, State supports from enterprise development agencies are focused on the exporting sector. There are many pitfalls in giving direct grants to locally traded services, including deadweight. If one grant aids a hairdresser at this end of the street, the one at the other end closes down, so one must be careful when intervening in locally traded services. One thing that will help such services, including people wishing to start new businesses or expand existing small businesses, is the new microfinance fund which is not focused on the international trading sector. It will be open to all sectors across the board. We are talking about small amounts of money but these are individuals without collateral who, generally speaking, will not be able to access bank or credit union funds.

We try to create an environment that will enable locally traded services to set up and grow businesses. A range of supports are available to them, including general training schemes. It is true that we do not directly grant aid locally traded services.

I am aware that no new funding is available for the development of new community enterprise centres, CECs. Mr. Ó Móráin will have more details on that matter. Quite a number of CECs are doing very well. They should be supported and we will continue to do that, but at the moment there is no new money to develop community enterprise centres. We can look at that but it is not in the current budget.

Mr. Ó Móráin will give some practical examples of survival supports, as well as saying a word about community enterprise centres.

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Ms Dunne has outlined the position on the community enterprise centres. We have run a succession of programmes to support the establishment of such centres. I do not have with me the number supported but it is substantial. Approximately 100 centres have been supported, including community centres and incubation centres in institutes of technology. I can get that information for the committee.

As Ms Dunne said, the last funding round was some years ago and there is no current funding round. Whether we do so again is ultimately a matter for the Minister to consider. This committee may also have views on the matter.

As regards survival skills, we work extensively with our clients. We focus on running seminars about cash flow, making mentors available, and a range of practical and non-financial supports. I suspect the issue the Senator is touching on is the outline basis for about 5,000 to 6,000 companies, a significant number of which are small. The total number of small companies in the country comprises hundreds of thousands. Our reach and that of the CEP is relatively small. In some ways, however, it is the most important sub-set because it has the most important impact on the economy. Between our clients and those of IDA Ireland there is an expenditure of something like €40 billion a year within the economy, which obviously has a huge economic impact. The majority of small companies fall outside our joint remits.

As Ms Dunne said, the idea of a MABS structure for small businesses is interesting, although it does not exist at the moment. It is outside the scope of Enterprise Ireland and the county enterprise boards.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin took the Chair.

Senator Averil Power

It would be useful to see figures on the community enterprise centres that Enterprise Ireland supports. I am aware that they are doing well and have been supported in the past. I am concerned there is no funding in the current environment. If it is recognised that they are doing a good job, I find it surprising that in the current economic environment we are not establishing new ones. I know it is a policy issue for the Minister but I find it very strange.

Deputy Tom Fleming

In 2010, IDA Ireland's client companies created 11,000 new jobs. To what extent was IDA Ireland involved in creating and sustaining those jobs? I presume the companies themselves would be the main driving force. In 2011, some 50 IDA Ireland investments have been announced with the potential to employ 4,500 people. What kind of credibility can we attach to that figure of 4,500 jobs? How many years will it take to create those projected jobs and when will they come into existence?

Some €93 million has been allocated for supports but how many jobs will be sustained or created by that expenditure? We should seriously consider our job creation policies, including the role of job agencies. IDA Ireland should be amalgamated with Enterprise Ireland. I cannot see the feasibility of having separate entities. Managerial and accommodation costs, in addition to other overheads, could be reduced dramatically by such a merger. There is a good case to be made for amalgamating both bodies to provide more cohesion, co-ordination and better service delivery. I know that is not a matter to be considered by the officials present but it is something that could be considered in future at political level.

Deputy Damien English resumed the Chair.

Deputy Tom Fleming

Regarding the success of the county enterprise boards, CEBs, I can only speak from my experience in Kerry. It is a role model in job creation at a cost effective price. Deputy Collins and others referred to mentoring. Kerry's CEB promotes mentoring services, providing an invaluable service in that respect. The successful models of county enterprise boards need to be examined so we can build on their proactive job creation success.

How many site visits have been made by IDA Ireland to Kerry in the past two years? Kerry has been turned into an industrial wasteland with a huge loss of jobs across the county in Killarney, Tralee and Cahirsiveen. Recently, the loss of 100 jobs was announced at Aetna, Castleisland, 25 of which are already terminated.

Chairman

Does the Deputy have a question rather than a geography lesson for the delegation?

Deputy Tom Fleming

Up to 80 more jobs there are to go by Christmas. While FEXCO in Killorglin is making a revival, jobs have been affected there. The Pretty Polly plant Killarney has been closed for several years.

Will the delegation give an update on the proposed pharmaceutical firm to be located in Tralee? We also need to redouble efforts in providing finance for small and medium-sized enterprises. Bank lending is limited due to European Central Bank regulations and deposits have fled the country. Some initiatives at Government level need to be taken to provide finance for the small and medium-sized business sector.

Ms Clare Dunne

The cost of a job created by IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland is higher than those created by CEBs. However, as Mr. Brendan McDonagh mentioned, the bigger picture is that the return to the Exchequer from IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland jobs is enormous, the guts of €40 billion, comprising corporation and income tax and spend in the economy. We have to contextualise the budgets and cost per sustained job over seven years.

I know from my experience with IDA Ireland through attending trade missions and meeting with clients, that it is hard work attracting multinationals to Ireland and competing with other attractive overseas locations. I know the efforts and expertise that both IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland bring to bear on securing all investments. It is a challenge and they do it successfully.

Amalgamating IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland and the subsequent reduction in administration costs was raised. It is not the first time it has been mooted. While this is a policy matter for the Government, IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland do two different types of jobs. IDA Ireland is about selling Ireland, bringing companies here or helping them to expand. Enterprise Ireland is about growing indigenous companies to get them to export into new markets. The administration cost reductions may actually be smaller than the Deputy thinks. We are also doing much work with our policy advisory agency, Forfás, in the area of shared services. Both agencies have significantly reduced their administrative costs over the past several years. The point about amalgamating the agencies is not off the table, however. The Government is open to considering all sorts of options with regard to the agencies.

The site of the former Pretty Polly factory in Killarney is being examined. However, I understand it is not an IDA building but owned by Killarney Town Council. IDA Ireland is engaging with the council to examine how the building can be transformed. It was constructed for manufacturing activity so it needs to be made as attractive as possible for a potential future client. Work is ongoing as we are answering a parliamentary question on it.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

IDA Ireland's role is to attract foreign direct investment into Ireland. That environment has become more complex and challenging than it was in the past. We must identify and target every specific client and within that develop a value proposition for them. Unfortunately, it is not the case that we can go to a client and ask them to come to Ireland, as it is a good place. Clients want detailed business cases. We have established a client development programme in which, first, a client is identified, then a particular business opportunity and then a value proposition that Ireland meets that business need is developed. Much preparatory work goes into it on our side. The client also evaluates research available publicly.

More than 200 other development agencies around the world are constantly knocking on the doors of these clients looking for the same business opportunities. The challenge for us is to ensure our value proposition is as attractive on a national and regional level.

The clients create the 11,000 jobs referred to while the role of the Government and State agencies is to support that. The approximately 1,000 overseas companies in Ireland are directly supported through advice, assistance and, in some cases, financial support by IDA Ireland. Not all the clients are financially supported. Financial aid to clients is constrained by European restrictions on grant aid and regional locations.

On the specifics on Kerry, I do not have the number of site visits to hand but I do have a number in terms of the research and development agenda, which is hugely important to try to sustain the existing clients and get them to grow and develop. We have had six companies in the Kerry region approved for research and development support in the recent past.

Ms Clare Dunne

We can get details of site visits and send them to the Deputy.

Deputy Ray Butler

I thank Ms Dunne for her presentation. Many of the issues have been raised and we all are singing off the same hymn sheet. What is Mr. Ó Móráin's view of enterprise boards going back under the remit of the county councils because they are creaking at the seams with work and shortage of staff?

Deputy Lawlor raised the issue of enterprise budgets. It is the same in Meath where I was a director of the enterprise board. We had a budget of €400,000. It was spent and in three or four months, it was gone. Deputy English and I then made a representation on behalf of two companies which, between them, could employ approximately 18 people, to try to get funding. They have been approved. We are waiting to see what funding has not been spent in other enterprise boards that comes back into the system to get them a few euro before the end of the year. That is a tough one, when those concerned are telephoning and one knows there are jobs at the end of the line if one can get funding for them. With enterprise boards, the problem is one cannot merely budget. If somebody comes in with an idea, one must go with the idea. One's budget is spent but one must go with the idea if one thinks it is good enough and it has been approved.

Another issue that Senator Power brought up is access to finance and MABS for small businesses. I have been involved in small businesses for the past 22 years. The problem is that in 2008-09, the crash happened in small businesses and retail Ireland is on its knees. Many businesses are gone. For many that survived, their credit ratings are nil and the banks will not entertain them even though the banks have done deals with these businesses that are still going and whose credit ratings are very poor. There must be some sort of forgiveness with credit ratings if we are to move forward. Deputy Conaghan stated that with access to finance, sometimes in many of these companies there is no growth and there are no jobs. If one cannot get access to finance and one is merely pottering along because of what happened in 2008 and 2009 with one's credit ratings gone down, one is in a no-win situation. We have forgiven the banks to a point with their credit ratings. I firmly believe that we must do something to recognise the problems faced by small and medium-sized businesses and to sort our their credit ratings if we are to move forward.

Ms Clare Dunne

I thank Deputy Butler. I will probably get one or two of my colleagues to supplement what I will say.

On his first point about the CEBs going into the local authorities, this is part of a policy decision. The important point is to ensure that we are as joined up on the ground as we possibly can be and that the microenterprise supports on the ground are working closely with the local authority personnel, particularly those working in local authorities in the business support units. That is the key, it is not a question, as such, of who owns whom, it is how they work together in a coherent way on the ground. That is something at which we are looking in the context of any future restructuring of the county enterprise boards and the microenterprise supports.

We also are mindful of the need to retain a strong coherent national enterprise policy throughout all of the regions. I detect from the meeting that members have had good and less good experiences with some CEBs, which is the nature of any organisation. Even a big organisation is as good as the people with whom one is dealing. Many of the CEBs are already co-located with or in close proximity to a local authority. In some cases, it works well. In others, it works less well. The Department's concern is for the person on the ground who wants to set up or expand a small business and who probably will not mind who is paying the person who is helping him or her, be it Enterprise Ireland, the Department or the local authorities. Our primary objective and what we will be hoping to achieve is maximum co-ordination and coherence on the ground because microenterprises, not structures, are our focus. Our key concern is to ensure that the structures are efficient and effective and are there to deliver to the client on the ground.

Deputy Butler directed a question to Mr. Ó Móráin and he may want to supplement what I am saying. On access to finance and credit ratings, much of this is probably a matter for the Department of Finance and the Central Bank. First, what we do not want is the banks to go back lending to businesses that are not sustainable over the longer term. In that sense, commercial viability and credit ratings are important. What we have discovered is that the banks had continued to lend using traditional lending criteria, which would have been the client putting up something as collateral, be it a building or something concrete. Some clients are now going to the banks with a good business proposition, a good business plan and a route to market worked out, but they might not have the collateral that the banks are looking for to lend against. These are matters we are trying to address with the temporary loan guarantee scheme. Some people would have property as collateral but, because of the property collapse, they no longer have collateral in those businesses. Other businesses such as high-tech software businesses do not have collateral. They may be in new emerging high-tech sectors which the banks might not necessarily understand.

The banks might not understand or have any knowledge of the markets that the company is trying to break in to, and they are reluctant. They would regard those companies as very high risk because there is a knowledge deficit in terms of the banks' understanding of the companies, and that is another area that we would hope to address with the loan guarantee. We have also engaged - Mr. Ó Móráin might also supplement this - in a hands-on way with the banks on the part of the agencies, both in bringing the bank personnel into the enterprise agencies to meet companies and in understanding business models, new companies, new markets and new sectors. Enterprise Ireland has also gone in to the banks. A great deal of hands-on training is going on to re-educate the banks and re-orient them back to solid business lending.

I appreciate the Chairman's comments. That is also our role. One of the Department's functions is to act as an advocate for business across all Departments and we regularly engage with our colleagues in the Department of Finance, with good outcomes.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O’Connor

I want to flag the one man or one woman kitchen industry, that is, the small person who wants to get into business but does not need Enterprise Ireland or the county enterprise board or else is overwhelmed by the information and financial statements on offer. These people need basic help in getting their websites up and running, distributing business cards or developing their marketing campaigns. Southside Partnership is offering courses on these subjects in Dun Laoghaire but sometimes people do not have the confidence to take them. Those who have been unemployed for several years can find it difficult to approach the enterprise boards. Can a simple mechanism be put in place so these people do not have to deal with several different organisations or understand business speak? Two individuals in my estate have established separate businesses. They needed simple help to get their businesses up and running and did not want vast amounts of money or anything else. Can this issue be raised with the Minister?

Ms Clare Dunne

Deputy Mitchell O'Connor appears to be speaking about the step below the county enterprise boards. As I noted earlier, we are developing a microfinance fund. I cannot go into details on it because we are literally writing up a draft proposal for the Minister but it is envisaged as a level below the enterprise boards and it will not be restricted to internationally traded services or manufacturing. Access to microfinance will be accompanied by mentoring and business supports. Sometimes people get more value out of mentoring and help with devising business plans than from monetary assistance.

The county enterprise boards can also be of assistance in this regard but perhaps the person to whom the Deputy referred had a particular experience. The boards should be able to offer guidance in an unthreatening and non-bureaucratic manner.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O’Connor

I am not criticising the enterprise boards but these people just want, perhaps, to produce jams in their kitchens to sell in their local markets. They do not want to go into a big organisation to put forward their business plans. All they need is basic help to get off the ground in order that they can come off the unemployment register rather than operate in the black market.

Ms Clare Dunne

The proposed microfinance facility might be beneficial to them. An organisation called First Step Microfinance is already operating in that area. It is a not-for-profit organisation that provides small loans to companies.

Chairman

We will be holding a meeting to deal with social enterprise and we can discuss the issue in that context.

Deputy Áine Collins

The Leader board in my local area provides mentoring to people with similar operations.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

Leader operates in agricultural counties.

Deputy Áine Collins

The people who are doing the mentoring offer their services for free. Perhaps we should take a more joined up approach, particularly in regard to businesses which fall between the agencies.

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Deputy Butler asked my opinion about the integration of county enterprise boards with local authorities. The current situation is unsustainable due to the impact of the employment control framework. Their small size means they are unable to sustain losses. It is also an inflexible structure and the overheads are high.

I do not have a view on the alternatives. The key factor from the client's point of view is an integrated service. One solution is to integrate the boards with the local authorities but there are other alternatives. It is important, however, that a decision be made. Any structure can be made to work if there is good will and the agencies work together. That is the real challenge, rather than how the structure is changed. The employment control framework has impacted unevenly on the boards and in general the jobs cannot be replaced. I am not wedded to any particular alternative provided there is a high level of integration between my agency, the enterprise boards and microenterprise supports.

Traditionally, the problems arose in terms of those who fell between these supports. A person setting up a business wants a limited amount of advice and a bit of money in order to get up and running rather than be required to prepare complicated business plans.

Mr. Eamonn McHale

We have been consistent in our argument that the focus on restructuring should be on maintaining the services the enterprise boards provide to microenterprises. When we are commenting on rigidities we are referring to the structures rather than the services they provide. They have proven themselves to be the most flexible entities at local level.

I want to respond to the issue of access to finance. We have not discussed a point raised by the Deputy, namely, that of the number of refusals where people are not getting access to credit. The role of the Credit Review Office, CRO, should be highlighted and promoted by the committee's members in their local areas. Mr. John Trethowan has proven himself a good advocate for business. Unfortunately, there has been some negative publicity about his efforts. Anyone who is refused credit has an access point to try to secure that credit for business.

The banks are lending to small businesses. There is no new business, but we must acknowledge that banks met their previous targets for providing access to credit. Difficulties are emerging in certain respects, particularly where people do not have collateral. As Ms Dunne stated, two schemes in the jobs initiative will try to address some of these issues, but members must be clear that these are not meant to replace the traditional banking sector. That sector has been recapitalised by the State and must perform to support the enterprise sector. Our two schemes have a specific focus and will not be the answer to everyone who is refused credit. Rather, they will address particular failings in the market and will be limited in scope. It is important that there should be no expectation that everyone who cannot get credit from the banks will suddenly qualify under a new guarantee scheme.

Senator John Kelly

Senator John Kelly

When will someone decide not to leave something floating for two or three years before grappling and dealing with it? I mentioned a small example in this forum two months ago. A beautiful hotel in my home town employs 40 people. It opened in 2009 and closed in 2010 because it could not sustain itself in the face of a water rates bill of €30,000 per year and a commercial rates bill of €40,000 per year. Forty people going on the dole costs the taxpayer €840,000 per year. If there was a joined-up approach to sustaining jobs, the likes of this would not occur. Regardless of the fact that Departments have different budgets, there is only one pot of money, albeit one with not much in it. Why are we allowing businesses to go through the floor for €70,000 when it will cost the taxpayer an extra €770,000 because we do not have structures to keep such businesses in place?

Ms Clare Dunne

There were quite a few questions. I am not in a position to answer any question on SOLAS, which has been gone from the Department for some time. The Senator will appreciate this.

As to the Department's role and work, it was recently restructured. Our division is responsible for competitiveness and jobs. Three principal officers work with me plus some assistant principals and various other staff. We are stretched. We shoulder many of the Department's responsibilities, for example, Enterprise Ireland, community enterprise boards and the competitiveness agenda across the system, which entails influencing Departments in terms of everything from the price of energy to critical infrastructure, including broadband, to the green economy. I am sure I am forgetting something. We have responsibility for the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, State aids, climate change and so on. Those of us in attendance have a great deal going on and we are all happy to be fully occupied.

In terms of getting out there and fronting for the Department, there is a role for the civil servant and a role for the Minister and Ministers of State. This is not to say that we do not get out or should not get out more. I need to make time to get out to visit more companies so that I might have a real understanding of what is happening on the ground. There is no substitute for getting out from behind the desk.

We have just presented a draft strategy to the Minister. I hope this will get some publicity and explain how the Department is structured and what we do. However, I will take the Senator's comments on board and bring them back to HQ for a discussion.

The Senator mentioned the confusion on the ground. This relates to what we are trying to do in terms of microenterprise, restructuring and so on. I accept that I can get confused. Somebody mentioned Leader, and we have county development boards and county enterprise boards. There are so many acronyms that it is a minefield. We are very mindful of that and as far as we can influence that agenda, we will do so to bring as much coherence as possible and to make it easy for people so that they know what is available and know where to go. That is a point that has been made repeatedly. These issues are difficult to tackle. It is not just a question of writing a very good policy proposal with recommendations. However, I take the point.

I believe Senator Kelly said there were two people in the county enterprise board in Roscommon. This again is part of the inflexibility. If there is a surplus or more people in a less busy CEB three counties away, currently we cannot move them to plug a gap in Roscommon. That is the type of inflexibility we are trying to address in any restructuring.

The issue of commercial rates, water rates and other local authority charges is part of our competitiveness agenda. Mr. Parnell and his colleagues work on this as one of their priority areas. I believe the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government has frozen commercial rates in terms of water in recent years. We are aware it is a cost to business. It is something on which we are engaging with the Department. I know the Minister, Deputy Bruton, is very actively engaged with his Cabinet colleagues on all these issues to ensure we bring down the cost of running businesses in so far as we can and not have situations such as the one the Senator pointed out to us.

Mr. William Parnell

I wish to add to Ms Dunne's remarks about the supports available from the Department, its agencies and other Departments. For example the Department of Social Protection provides various supports or incentives to employers, including the employers PRSI exemption scheme. Revenue has a job assist programme. There has not been a tremendous uptake of the schemes that are available. As a small step in the direction I believe Senator Kelly is talking about us needing to go, we have placed on the homepage of our website details of supports available to companies, either through the agencies represented here today or other Departments. There are supports for taking on new employees or productivity improvements, which can be found on our homepage. Ms Dunne referred to it in her opening address. We now want to work with employer bodies and those representing the unemployed to make them aware that the details are available on our website. That is something we hope to do over the coming weeks. It is a small step, but we recognise the need to make people more aware of what is available and to bring together the supports available across Government. We will continue to work on developing that page and add new schemes to it.

Senator John Kelly

That is exactly what is needed because people have no idea what is available. I could meet 100 people and they would not have a clue and it is all doom and gloom.

Regarding the commercial rates and the possibility of a MABS for businesses, there is total inflexibility with local authorities. All they are interested in is the €40,000 they are owed. They will shut a business down and turn off its taps if they do not get their €40,000, not taking account of what it will cost the taxpayer. It is a problem of not having joined-up thinking and it is vital that we start doing that.

Chairman

The point is well made.

Deputy Seán Kyne

Although I was a local authority member, I did not get an opportunity to serve on a CEB. I am told that where a chief executive officer is enthusiastic and energetic in his or her role, the CEB will perform well. I have heard a number of people mention low budgets that were spent early. However, the witnesses have mentioned underspending in some of the CEBs. Where there is underspending, what are the CEBs doing to promote themselves? Are they going out to the communities and holding roadshows or are they just relying on people to contact them? In my constituency the offices are in Galway city, but places like Clifden and Cleggan are an hour and ten minutes away for people. Are the CEBs getting out to promote themselves? In that part of Connemara, which is a non-Gaeltacht area, Leader companies seem to be running the show in terms of grant assistance. They even have stands at the Clifden pony show and the Oughterard agricultural show, with staff in attendance handing out brochures and giving advice. We need more of that.

I believe there may be a role for entrepreneurs or people who have benefited in the past from grant assistance being on the boards. It would be beneficial if people who have experience in business were willing to give even a year and then let other people get involved. Deputy Collins spoke about mentoring. We need those people who have experience of creating jobs and have gone through the process, perhaps from a small idea, to outline how they progressed towards creating jobs. We need to encourage them to give back as best they can.

What everyone present is saying is that we need to ensure that anybody with a good or even half-decent business idea which can be improved by getting the right advice gets that advice. It is not everybody who has the confidence to appear on "Dragons' Den" and present a business case. Some people want to go in and meet one person, discuss a good idea and get the best advice, and we need to ensure that happens.

Ms Clare Dunne

I will ask Mr. McHale to respond.

Mr. Eamonn McHale

The Deputy began his remarks by mentioning underspend. There is not a significant element of underspend and it is not an issue. Most of the boards spend what they are given so we are not talking about large volumes being returned to the Exchequer. In that regard I do not believe the issue of the enthusiasm of the CEO comes into play as much as he might think. They obviously put themselves out in the local community. Most of them have networks of businesses and are in close contact with local entrepreneurs. They also have very highly developed links with the schools programmes and the student enterprise award scheme promotes entrepreneurship in the area. Most of them run special weeks and competitions for promoting enterprise. They have a reasonable profile and some of them have engaged in media advertising of their services. While more may need to be done with that, they certainly have a profile. They operate within whatever finances are given to them. Obviously with a finite amount of money they cannot assist everybody who comes to them, and especially at a level of increasing demand they do not all have sufficient funds to accommodate those requests immediately with grants.

I refer back to something Senator Kelly mentioned. I appreciate that there are two staff in Roscommon who are working valiantly to try to perform. The employment control framework means they are slightly inhibited in what they can do. I would not agree that it has, as the Senator put it, Mickey Mouse money. I believe it has got a reasonable allocation over the years. When compared with other CEBs, it is doing as well as them.

The rigidity of the system was mentioned. There is no suggestion that the staff are inflexible. They are each employed directly by the relevant board in the county and there is no facility for them to move from board to board. The inflexibility is in the system rather than in the individuals themselves. I am sure others will be reading the transcripts of what is happening here.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

What mechanisms does the Department employ to ensure that job creation by the agencies is geographically balanced? What does the Department do when blackspots emerge in various locations?

Ms Clare Dunne

I will start and then might hand over to colleagues to supplement. Mr. McDonagh mentioned that IDA Ireland has job creation targets. As far as I can recall, IDA Ireland's target is that 50% of new investments will be located outside the main urban areas of Dublin and Cork. By and large, it has pretty much achieved that. It is impossible to guarantee because if we are attracting in a large multinational, we cannot dictate to it where it will locate. What we do to make Ireland as attractive as possible is to offer several locations and put the best foot forward for each one. Ultimately, it is for the individual company to decide where to locate. As I said, IDA Ireland has a target to work to and generally keeps to it.

Feargal Ó Móráin can confirm whether Enterprise Ireland has regional targets.

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

We do not have regional targets as such. Our overall objective is to maximise the number of new jobs and businesses wherever they are. That makes us interested in generating the conditions that lead to new start-ups. In our business, we work with existing companies throughout the country, some of which are in remote locations and others not. In relation to new businesses, the question is what conditions will lead to their creation. It can be support from the State through Enterprise Ireland or the county enterprise boards, but it is also to do with the general environment. That makes us interested in and active with the institutes of technology in the regions. For example, we have supported the development of incubation facilities in every institute of technology in the country and we have supported various other programmes with them, working with local businesses and providing supports. Our regional offices are located in the same spaces and we are considering how we can better connect with smaller companies. It is about trying to create the conditions whereby we will get many start-up companies in Kerry, Sligo, Donegal or wherever, and our job is to support them.

The policy challenge for the country is how we make it attractive for someone to start a business in a region as opposed to in the middle of Galway, Dublin or Cork. We work hard to try to do that. We only control a part of the environment, but that is the challenge. Basically, we want to create businesses wherever we can. We are not as constrained as IDA Ireland in that we do not typically deal with big multinational companies. We deal with some that are already here, but typically we are not in the inward investment business. Also, our clients do not move around. A family business in Kildare will stay there, for example. It will not move somewhere else. The question for us, therefore, is how we get new enterprise going in locations as well as sustaining and supporting the development of existing companies. I am happy to discuss the issue further with the committee should it wish to do so.

Ms Clare Dunne

: The CEBs operate locally, at county and sub-county level, so it is not a particular issue for them. Deputy Griffin asked how we deal with blackspots. Members will know that, unfortunately, there has been some bad news about closures, including the news about TalkTalk in Waterford. The Department and the system are generally pretty quick to respond to asymmetric shocks such as those involving TalkTalk in Waterford, Dell in Limerick, Waterford Crystal some time ago, and SR Technics. Those are the examples that come to mind immediately. The committee will know that the Minister, Deputy Bruton, was in Waterford on Monday and he instructed the agencies to submit an analysis and point to the causes of the high unemployment rate in the region. He also asked them to draw up a specific jobs plan for the south east and bring it to him within 30 days. The whole of Government is involved, as are all the enterprise development agencies and also FÁS. Any Government body that can assist during such a time of crisis is called in.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

What does IDA Ireland do when a particular county is identified as having low visitation levels and low creation figures? Surely there must be a mechanism whereby people ask what is happening and how the situation can be improved, and then liaise with the various Government agencies and local and central government to see what can be done.

I suppose my other question goes off on a tangent, but it is relevant. In the context of the loss of some profitable enterprises such as TalkTalk and Aetna in Castleisland, is there a tipping point in relation to our rate of corporation tax? If we considered a possible increase, would that drive people further away, or is it safe to say that the position held until now - that there is no leeway to increase corporation tax - is a sound one? Arguments are coming from various angles that we can afford to increase corporation tax and not lose jobs. Will the witnesses clarify their view on that? It would be interesting to get their perspective.

Ms Clare Dunne

I will take the corporation tax question first and then hand over to Brendan McDonagh, who will talk specifics.

The maintenance of corporation tax at 12.5% has been stated and restated as Government policy, and it is the position that I hold. The important thing about corporation tax is certainty. Businesses need to be able to plan for many years in advance, particularly multinationals, but also indigenous companies and scaling companies. That is the critical thing. This Government, like the previous Government, has fought quite hard battles with some of our European neighbours to maintain that position and we have been vocal on it. The absolute rate is important. Multinationals frequently cite it as the reason they come and stay here, so certainty about it is important. I would not offer any other opinion. As far as I am concerned, this is Government policy and it provides certainty in the business environment for our multinationals.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I reiterate what Ms. Dunne said. Certainty about the tax is the key element for us in a marketing environment. Companies plan on timeframes of 10 or 20 years, so they are looking for that level of certainty. Ms. Dunne is absolutely right.

On the point about regional development and the balance, as Ms. Dunne said, we have a target for 50% of our investments to go outside the two main population centres of Dublin and Cork. We actively strive to ensure that we meet that target, but it is important to bear in mind that we work against locations in other countries with populations of 1 million to 2 million people. To balance that, we try to present locations as integrated regions where we can show that there are up to 1 million people. That makes them attractive locations for companies to go to. The key thing that has helped us in that regard is the new infrastructure that has been put in place. The motorways have made Ireland much smaller. When we talk about trying to encourage investment in the gateways and hubs, that is the focal point for driving economic development in the regions. The economic development is not just going to happen within the confines of the gateway. Our strategy is to show an integrated regional platform of three or four key regions across the country outside Dublin and Cork. A client can be told that hundreds of thousands of people are within a commutable distance, with the requisite skills and infrastructure. That gives us some leeway to compete with other locations with more than 1 million people. On the specific case of Kerry, we try to push that area to join the gateways of Limerick and Cork. As its own entity it tries to show as the composite, which gives an investor the sense that the region would have a critical mass and scale. It is a challenging environment but that is the position we try to push to clients.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

For the record-----

Chairman

There is a very patient Senator here.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Lest there be any confusion, I fully agree with the position on corporation tax, which is important. There are arguments, especially approaching budget time, from certain sectors that we could afford to increase corporation tax and not lose jobs. It is important that the Government's position is stated and that support is given to it.

Chairman

Senator Mullins has been very patient.

Senator Michael Mullins

Most issues have been covered but I have a question. The county enterprise boards budget for 2011 was €27.42 million so how did that compare with 2010? I would be very concerned about any move to disband the county enterprise boards. I know there is a staffing issue but we should resolve that. I agree with Deputy Kyne's comments that in some counties - I come from County Galway - there have been proactive chief executives well able to cut through bureaucracy. They took a certain amount of risk and chances, and most of the time it worked out. Many successful businesses in County Galway started with a bit of help from the enterprise board.

We have many highly skilled unemployed people and we should look to encourage them to create jobs for themselves and others. The Leader companies and county enterprise boards will be the port of call for many of these people, and we should target finance for this in the short term. There has been much talk about access to finance, which is a major issue to be tackled. I had two people in my office some weeks ago who had a brilliant idea that would be supported by the county enterprise board but they could not get money. If they could get finance, there is potential to create two or three jobs.

With regard to balanced regional development, I come from Ballinasloe, which has been devastated over the past decade. In the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s it was probably the envy of every town in the country with the level of employment. We lost two major multinationals and an indigenous company that ceased manufacturing, with a total of 1,000 to 1,200 manufacturing jobs lost. There is a feeling these companies were let down badly by IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland, although a handful of replacement jobs have come to Ballinasloe. We are almost in the centre of Ireland and the town is just off a motorway. Geographically, we could not be better located. I encourage IDA and Enterprise Ireland to focus on the town, although there is much activity in Galway city. We should also consider regions within counties. Ballinasloe could not be in a better position if we consider availability of staff and a population to draw from. There may not have been recent site visits but perhaps the witnesses could communicate the number of visits to Ballinasloe over the past year or 18 months.

Chairman

It is an hour and a bit from Dublin.

Senator Michael Mullins

It is an hour and 30 minutes from Dublin and 30 minutes from Galway.

Ms Clare Dunne

I will speak before handing over to Mr. McHale to deal with budgets. With regard to the restructuring of county enterprise boards, we are not out to disband the boards. We will ensure that we have a structure in place to maintain a very strong focus on the microenterprise sector across the country. I wish to assure members in that regard.

It is great to hear the Senator's comments about Ballinasloe. It has always been on IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland's map. We will provide further details concerning site visits to the Deputy. Mr. McHale will go into the detail of the budgets in order to provide comparison.

Mr. Eamonn McHale

We can send the members a table of statistics. Going over three years, there is a capital and administration budget. As people have indicated, the administration budget is not just to serve the superstructure of the office but covers salaries of individuals directly interfacing with clients. That is part of the service offered.

From 2009 to 2011, the current budget was €13.5 million, €13.3 million and €12.2 million, so there has been a reduction in cost. A substantial element of the 2011 cost has come from reduced staff numbers. There is a distinction in the capital budget; at the beginning of the year an allocation is made to the county enterprise boards under the Estimates process and from time to time, additional money is made available, depending on what can be sourced. The initial allocations for the boards in 2009 was €14.2 million, with €14.9 million in 2010 and €15 million in 2011. In 2009 there was an extra €6 million given, which brought overall capital to €20.2 million, and in 2010, an extra €3.3 million was secured, which gave an overall capital allocation of €18.2 million. We are still at a level of €15 million for 2011.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

If a major multinational, such as Intel or Hewlett Packard, comes to a region, what is the impact on the local community with regard to planning and housing? Is there a link between local authorities? The last thing we want is people driving 50, 60 or 80 miles to jobs. Is there dialogue between local authorities with regard to future planning in residential and social infrastructure within areas when a multinational comes to a region?

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

I have a few questions before we finish. As regards the review of all the initiatives that is being conducted, when did that start?

Ms Clare Dunne

I think it started in May. A great deal of preparation would have been done beforehand because we are using international best practice. We brought people in to ensure we are conducting the most thorough forensic review of these matters and that it would be comparable with international study. That took a couple of months and it was very detailed. It started once we had agreed that we were on the right track.

Chairman

I am glad we are on the same wavelength in terms of what the committee would like to achieve and what you think needs to be done in terms of structural changes and so forth. From a business point of view it is a one-stop-shop that is required, or at least that the structure facilitates that whereby, for example, if A cannot help, B steps in immediately. That joined-up thinking does not appear to exist at present. It is very frustrating for businesses and for members of the committee - Senator Kelly touched on this - when one sees the lack of availability of help for businesses to maintain jobs. It will cost social welfare or the local government. Somebody will lose along the way. It is just one pot but there does not appear to be joined-up thinking.

In many cases one sees companies going down the tubes because they could not get an employment grant. They cannot get it because the structure does not allow it or the funds are gone. It is then a direct cost to social welfare. The committee needs to know that joined-up thinking will be put in place and that the Departments and their budgets are willing to be flexible with each other. That is the reason this committee exists. It is bringing the Departments together so we can make better use of the resources. It is pointless to let jobs go just because it is somebody else's budget.

There are a number of different schemes such as the PRSI relief and revenue relief if one creates jobs, but they might not be drawn down. Many businesses currently need cash due to the shortage of credit. Although it is not the Government's job to give out cash, we have to face the reality that businesses need it and the best way to get cash to businesses is an employment grant. It is direct, straightforward, clean and simple. Many businesses just need an employment grant to sustain and create jobs. We can keep it simple. They need help from the State in the cash department and that is one way to provide it. In all the structures and gaps you are examining, please bear in mind that many businesses are not able to engage with your services because they do not fit the criteria, but they need your help. With that help they will create and sustain jobs. The help must be simple and straightforward as well.

Mr. McDonagh said IDA Ireland has a good working relationship with councils. An issue we dealt with regularly when we were in the Opposition was the fact that IDA Ireland land banks are not being used in some cases and could be put to better use locally for local enterprises, be it through start-up units or otherwise. Will there be more goodwill and flexibility? I understand that IDA Ireland must protect its parcels of land to ensure it has land available, but in some cases there appears to be a lack of flexibility to engage when there could be other opportunities to use the land. Will Mr. McDonagh outline his thoughts on that? We need to see everybody working together to create jobs.

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

We have taken a strategic look at our land bank and divided it in two. We have classified the core strategic land banks, mainly in the gateways and hubs, which would have the potential to significantly attract large multinationals. On the other side, in the case of all the other land banks in the smaller locations we are looking at opportunities and how we can engage directly with the local authority. We have taken the non-strategic land banks out and are engaging directly with the local authority to see how we can get wider uses for them. Obviously, we must get an economic return for them but promoting wider use would also be a focal point.

Chairman

Do the witnesses wish to add anything further before we conclude?

Ms Clare Dunne

I take the point about the one-stop-shop. It is something we hear again and again, and it does not surprise me. I am sometimes confused myself so I can understand how the average person trying to set up a business would not know where to start. It is something we are conscious of and we are anxious to address it in any future reorganisation of how we do things. That will be to the forefront of our thinking.

Mr. Parnell referred to the page he and his colleagues have constructed for the front of the Department's website, which goes way beyond what we do in the Department. It is about jobs and the type of supports that are available across the system. It is a work in progress.

We also believe there is a need for some type of web based support. There is an existing website called BASIS, but it has not been promoted sufficiently and needs to be revamped. It is something the Minister has mentioned frequently. That would be another start. If one wishes to set up a company or employ people, the website directs one to the relevant agency or Department but it is all within the single website. That is something we are actively pursuing. However, I accept the point, and it is a frustration within the system as much as it is outside the system.

Chairman

Does the Department link with the Department of Social Protection? Let us say a company cannot access funds because the enterprise board's funds are gone and it will probably go to the wall. Is there any mechanism whereby the Department can link to social welfare? Is it considering that? If not, could it be borne in mind? Using some of its budget might save jobs, which in turn will save the Department money. That needs to happen. How do we develop that type of approach?

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

That is no problem.

Chairman

I appreciate that. I thank the witnesses on behalf of the committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.42 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 20 September 2011.

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION díospóireacht - Wednesday, 14 Sep 2011

Job Creation and Business Start-up Schemes: Discussion

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Eamonn McHale

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Mr. Eamonn McHale

Mr. Eamonn McHale

Mr. Eamonn McHale

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Eamonn McHale

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Eamonn McHale

Mr. Eamonn McHale

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Eamonn McHale

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. William Parnell

Mr. Eamonn McHale

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Eamonn McHale

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Mr. Eamonn McHale

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. William Parnell

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Eamonn McHale

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Feargal Ó Móráin

Ms Clare Dunne

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Eamonn McHale

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

Ms Clare Dunne

Mr. Brendan McDonagh

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Sep 2011