JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 20 Sep 2011

Future Development of the Further Education Sector: Discussion

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Dermot Mulligan, assistant secretary general, Mr. Brian Duggan, principal officer, Ms Marian Carr, assistant principal officer, and Mr. Niall Monks, assistant principal officer, all of the skills division of the Department of Education and Skills.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Mr. Mulligan to begin the briefing on proposals for the future development of the further education sector.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

Thank you, Chairman. I am happy to be here today to say a few words about the changes that have been recently announced regarding the future development of the further education and training sector. Members will recall that the employment services and employment programmes functions of FÁS are currently being transferred to the Department of Social Protection, which is establishing the new national employment and entitlements service. The changes I will describe today involve the remaining training and corporate functions of FÁS and the further education programmes provided by vocational educational committees. I will first of all briefly describe the changes in the FET sector, which the Government approved in July. They include two key organisational changes, the first being the creation of a new authority called SOLAS to be responsible for the co-ordination and funding of further education and training. The role of SOLAS for the FET sector will be akin to the role of the HEA for the higher education sector and it will be staffed mostly by former FÁS head office staff. The second key change is that VECs will ultimately deliver all publicly funded further education and training programmes, and FÁS will be disbanded.

In recognition of their skills and expertise, and the need for an orderly transition in the establishment of SOLAS, the existing members of the FÁS board have been invited to continue to serve out their current terms as members of the SOLAS board, once the relevant legislation has been passed. Mr. Michael Moriarty of the IVEA has been recently appointed to the FÁS board. The establishment of SOLAS will give the FET sector a single, coherent national management structure to drive the implementation of the changes necessary to ensure the delivery of a quality, modern, relevant FET service to learners and jobseekers.

These changes represent the most significant change in the further education sector in over 70 years and the most significant change in the training sector since the establishment of FÁS itself over 20 years ago. In the new arrangements, the Department of Education and Skills and the Government will define the broad strategy and national priorities, decide on the funding level, develop the legislative framework and oversee implementation. SOLAS will, in turn, enter into annual service level agreements with VECs, Skillsnet and other bodies for the delivery of specific FET programme outputs for specified financial allocations.

Regarding why SOLAS is being established, I will now say a few words about why the Government decided on these changes for the FET sector. It was decided that in order to meet, first, the objectives of national skills strategy and, second, the needs of learners, we needed to do two key things. First, we needed to fully integrate the separate further education and training sectors into one sector which would be a key pillar of our system of education and skills. Second, we needed a clearer focus on the needs of learners, including jobseekers particularly, and on the needs of business and the labour market.

These significant changes to the FET sector will have three key impacts. First, there will be a clearer, learner-centred focus on the needs of jobseekers and other learners. For the first time, jobseekers will be systematically referred by the Department of Social Protection, under the national employment action plan, to further education programmes, in addition to the existing referrals to FÁS training courses. This will require specific protocols and operational mechanisms between the Department of Education and Skills, SOLAS and VECs on one side, and the Department of Social Protection and the new national employment and entitlements service on the other.

Second, there will be a greater focus on providing the new skills required by the new jobs in today's economy. SOLAS will ensure that there is a greater focus on skills provision for occupations in growth areas like the services, ICT, medical devices, food and bio-pharma sectors. This will, in turn, mean less skills provision for jobs in the traditional construction and manufacturing sectors, which have been on the wane. With the assistance of the expert group for future skills needs, SOLAS will also analyse demand for future FET provision and respond quickly to emerging skills needs.

Third, there will be significant modernisation of course provision, particularly in terms of delivery. This means SOLAS will ensure that FET courses are provided in new ways that are more appropriate to the current digital age and more efficient in terms of the use of resources. In particular, it will significantly expand the online, blended and evening provision of FET courses.

These new programmes under SOLAS will be integrated, flexible and responsive to the needs of learners and the requirements of a changed and changing economy. SOLAS will also be underpinned by strong quality assurance standards and will be subject to international benchmarking and course content reviews. There will also be an increased focus on outputs and outcomes, especially in the further education sector. This will lead to greater value for money at a time of significantly increased demand for FET supports due to the rise in unemployment.

I will now say a few words about the implementation steps for the transition to these new arrangements. A SOLAS implementation group has been established to implement these changes in the FET sector. The implementation group is chaired by the Minister for State with responsibility for training and skills, Deputy Ciarán Cannon, and its membership includes the Department of Education and Skills, FÁS and the Irish Vocational Education Association.

The group had its first meeting on 31 August and it will have its second meeting this week. The immediate task for the group is the development of a draft action plan to implement the necessary changes to put these new arrangements in place. This draft action plan will then be the subject of consultation with interested stakeholders before being finalised and published.

The intention is that over a period beginning with 2012, SOLAS will manage an increasing proportion of the financial allocation for further education and training services from the Department of Education and Skills. These new arrangements will require the Labour Services Acts to be amended and, to ensure legal certainty, will involve amendment of the Vocational Education Act and the Education Acts. This will facilitate the VECs taking over responsibility for the provision of training services, in addition to their existing further education responsibilities. The proposed legislation will be published early in the new year.

The Government has indicated that it wants the implementation of this significant change process to be largely complete by the end of 2012. These changes will be implemented carefully to dovetail with the reduction in the number of VECs, which has been announced. The heads of the relevant legislation will be published in the next few weeks and the Bill itself will be published, hopefully, early in 2012.

In conclusion then, I would say that the clear objective of this major change management process is to give increased focus to the needs of learners, especially jobseekers, and in meeting those needs to ensure that further education and training programmes are modern, flexible and relevant to the labour market and its skills needs.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I join with the Chairman in welcoming Mr. Mulligan and his colleagues from the Department. Earlier this year, we had an opportunity to discuss with the Minister, Deputy Quinn, and the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon, the broad outline and the need for changes in the area of further education and training. I welcome Mr. Mulligan's statement and the Government's decision in July to establish SOLAS. This followed the reconfiguration of Departments that took place during 2010 when Skills went from the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation to the Department of Education and Skills. That was a welcome development. I welcome Mr. Mulligan's emphasis on the emerging skills needs of learners. The further education colleges were clearly developed and expanded to cater for the emerging needs of the economy, including skills. I welcome the fact that this sector is now being put together.

I notice, however, that there is no mention of adult education, which is an important area. By its nature it gets no particular commendation or commentary, even though adult education is provided throughout the country. Each county VEC has adult education officers. It is an area that has delivered cost-effective outcomes and has responded greatly to the needs of various local communities. In any of the documentation I have seen, however, there is no mention of adult education, although I welcome the reconfiguration of further education and training. I would like to see some confirmation on where adult education will fit in to this new architecture.

I wish to criticise one area on which I hope progress can be made. In the second last paragraph of his speech, Mr. Mulligan stated: "The Government has indicated that it wants the implementation of this significant change process to be largely complete by the end of 2012". The Government decided in July this year to establish SOLAS and legislative provision must obviously be made for that. Given that this is an issue of major importance to our people, that is a long time to complete the process. Unfortunately, so many people are currently unemployed and consequently they want the very best training through the necessary improvement in the provision of what FÁS has been doing in past years. If Mr. Mulligan is stating that the process will be "largely complete by the end of 2012", we can be certain that it will not be complete by then. That is the only area of disappointment in his statement.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

I will comment on the timescale first. The focus is on the word "complete" rather than on the word, "largely". There may be a small number, a very small area which might not have been fully changed by then but the intention is that during 2012 these changes will have taken place. We have to wait first, for the legislation to be published and for it to proceed through the Houses of the Oireachtas, which will be during 2012. The intention is not to wait for the legislation to pass before we make the preparations for these changes. On the contrary, the SOLAS implementation group has already met once and it is meeting again tomorrow. We have already completed a lot of work regarding the mandate and structure of the new organisation and an initial engagement on how the funding will operate and the staffing requirements. Those discussions are already well advanced. We are reasonably confident that by the time the legislation passes we will be in a position to take action on the change quickly. This will be sometime during 2012; we will not wait until the end of 2012.

However, a small number of programmes and courses have grown up organically as part of the further education system and it is difficult to identify the funding stream separately from the rest of the provision. There will, therefore, be a small amount of work to be done in this regard. When we use the term, "largely complete", the focus is on the word, "complete" rather than on "largely". My hope would be that the change will have taken place before next summer and subject to the legislation having passed. There is an associated sense of urgency. We have hit the ground running. The decision was made in July and the first meeting of the implementation group was held on 31 August and the second meeting this week. There will be an intense period of preparation between now and the end of this year to try to ensure we have everything ready to put the changes into action when the legislation is passed.

With regard to adult education, there was no intention to leave it out but rather adult education and literacy programmes are part of the broad church of further education so it is included under the piece on further education. It is not possible in the time of a short presentation to name-check each individual programme but there are a number of programmes within the further education area. I stress the Department regards the adult education programmes in particular as having an important role to play for those who have yet to be part of the national framework of qualifications. Adult education gives them that start on the ladder. This is particularly important.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I welcome the announcement about SOLAS. The only problem is that the announcement was made but the transfer of powers and duties is to happen in time. I hope the sooner the better. The announcement should have been followed up immediately by the transfer rather than raising people's hopes. I hope SOLAS will be able to address some of the chaotic courses that have been run in some of the training centres and by FÁS in general. I know of one case in my area where a person attended a course on warehousing. He qualified at the end of the course but he was unable to take up any employment in a warehouse because the course did not provide a Safe Pass qualification. He had to wait six months to do a Safe Pass course. I hope this type of illogical situation will not arise in the future.

I have a few specific questions. Will the Youthreach centres and training courses come under the remit of SOLAS or under the national employment and entitlements service? I presume the community employment schemes will be under the national employment and entitlements service. Community employment courses also have a training budget. Will they be funded by the SOLAS budget, considering that SOLAS deals with training? Many senior colleges and VEC colleges deliver post-leaving certificate courses. Are these regarded as further education and if so, will the shortfall in places on post-leaving certificate courses be filled? There is a great need and desire for more places so that people can obtain the qualifications they need and the limitation on places is an impediment. In some colleges there is neither the space nor funds to provide these courses.

Will SOLAS become the organisation dealing with grants for back to education or will this responsibility remain in the Department of Social Protection? I hope that if this grant stays within the Department of Social Protection there will be greater flexibility for those who fall on the wrong side of the cut-off period for qualification for this back to education grant. If a person fails to qualify for this grant, he or she is prevented from pursuing the career or training course for at least a year. It seems illogical if a person has been on the job-seeker's allowance for five months and is then prevented from doing a course for another 12 months. This person could then be on a job seeker's allowance for a year, at a cost to the State, when this cost could be used to fund further education.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

On the question as to which courses will be within the remit of SOLAS and which will be under the Department of Social Protection, Youthreach is currently in the further education area provided by the VECs and this will be part of the remit of SOLAS, as will PLC course provision. The provision of community employment schemes has come under the umbrella of the Department of Social Protection so it will stay there in the context of the development and establishment of the national employment and entitlements service. The details on the training element of community employment have yet to be finalised. The Department will be looking at each of the programmes and to see whether there could be co-operation regarding some of the elements. In that vein, the back-to-education grants which are currently the responsibility of the Department of Social Protection will remain with that Department.

Regarding the announcement of the process, given that this involves legislative change and that it is a very significant change management process, this will take some time. As I indicated earlier, the intention is to try to keep the timescale as short as possible but we have to make this very significant change at a time of very significant need for further education and training services due to the increase in unemployment. We have to ensure that the show stays on the road as we make these important changes. This means it must be done carefully in a structured way so that the services to the public are not disrupted while making the changes as quickly as possible. These are the factors we are taking into consideration when setting out the terms of the action plan.

Chairman

A question was asked about the back-to-education grants.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

These will stay within the Department of Social Protection.

Deputy Joan Collins

Deputy Ó Snodaigh asked the questions I had in mind and these have been clarified. I want to try and get a handle on the transition from FÁS to SOLAS and on the training courses previously carried out by FÁS which are now defunct because they are not seen to provide the skills needed for the new economy. There is not much clarity on this. I am aware of a person who wanted to apply for a grant to do a PSV, public service vehicle, course but when he got the application form for the course from Mount Street recently he was told the grant is no longer available. We need clarity on what jobs are being cut and on what training is being dropped as well as information on the new skills.

I am particularly concerned about the community sector and those working on FÁS and CE schemes. How will this impact on them or how will that area of the community be protected? In my area a call-in centre which deals with the elderly has 23 CE and FÁS workers attached to it. How will the cuts in the HSE impact on that or on SOLAS in trying to maintain those jobs? Does SOLAS have a remit to maintain jobs in those areas?

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

I mentioned in my introduction that part of the mandate of SOLAS will be to focus on new skills for the economy. This means it will be concerned more with services, ICT and the bio-pharma area, etc. This does not mean that we will totally neglect the requirement for some training on the more traditional construction and manufacturing areas or in the driving area, referred to by the Deputy. It is a question of emphasis and there will be a shift of emphasis. I am unsure about the grant referred to by the Deputy and the circumstances with regard to that individual.

However, we will examine how we can ensure that whenever we provide training to people, it will be in an area that will help them get work. Therefore, we will look at changing the courses that are available so as to ensure, particularly for job seekers, that we are training them in skills that will make it easier for them to get work. This applies not just to training but also to further education because it is all the one sector. The VECs will be responsible for the delivery of all further education and training on the ground. They will provide that in a way that has specific reference to the labour market vacancies, locally and nationwide.

The Deputy mentioned community employment. I mentioned in my introduction that community employment is one of the employment programme functions of FÁS which has transferred to the Department of Social Protection. Therefore, it will not be part of SOLAS or the further education and training sector. A number of changes are ongoing in that regard around the establishment of the national employment and entitlements service and any developments will take place in that space.

Senator Averil Power

I thank Mr. Mulligan for his presentation and join with our spokesperson, Deputy Brendan Smith, in welcoming the establishment of SOLAS. It is a good step to have just one body looking after the further education and training sector. There is much excellent work going on in the sector, but sufficient credit is not given for that. Perhaps we have tended not to hold further education courses in high esteem, particularly practical courses which are far better suited to the skills and talents of many people than higher level education in universities. Hopefully, this initiative will contribute to building a better identity and public esteem for the sector.

While there is much good work going on, there is no doubt that there is considerable room for improvement. Mr. Mulligan touched on this in his presentation in terms of the modernisation of the courses and their delivery. The tendency has been for the sector to be supplier driven, which has meant trying to fit people to the courses available rather than considering the needs. The slowness to change has become particularly acute in recent times with so many unemployed people, many of whom have good skills, being offered courses irrelevant to their qualifications or to the jobs that will be available.

I would like the Department to take a particular look at the lone parent sector as there has been a problem with regard to the hours when courses are delivered. Mr. Mulligan mentioned evening courses and online delivery. This has been an ongoing issue for lone parents which has been highlighted by groups representing them. For example, people are told they must be at a course by 9 a.m. when they have a young child to be dropped off at a school that is perhaps half an hour away at 9.30 a.m. This is a particular issue for a group that needs extra support to ensure they can avail of the opportunities in education.

Mr. Mulligan mentioned an action plan, which is crucial. His presentation touched on the right priorities and nobody would disagree with the general points. However, the real meat will be the implementation. Will he confirm if the plan will be published? It is important also that the responses made to the plan are published on the Department's website so as to encourage and inform public debate. We need an interactive debate where we can see what the different groups are saying. I ask that when this is complete, Mr. Mulligan will return to this committee. While it is all very well and positive to discuss the general terms, implementation is crucial. We want to see a clear action plan set out to move from where we are now to a different suite of courses and a way of delivering them. I hope the committee will be involved in that and that after the draft action is published and we have had a chance to read the responses, we will have an opportunity to feed into the plan before it is finalised.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

I agree with the point made about the importance of the further education and training sector. The idea is that we will put further education and training together and make it a key pillar of our education and skills sector because of the important role it has to play. It is particularly important with regard to our objectives under the national skills strategy, which concern the need to upskill people in the workforce in the period to 2020. The projections show we need to upskill approximately 500,000 people by one level on the national framework of qualifications. Approximately 330,000 of those 500,000 people are not yet up to leaving certificate level. In other words, they do not have a leaving certificate or equivalent qualification yet.

A large part of the challenge of meeting our objectives under the national skills strategy is at the lower levels, lower than the higher education level. Therefore, it is particularly important that SOLAS drives the programme to meet those objectives. It must do that in an integrated, clear and targeted way around performance management and objectives. I agree fully with the Senator on the importance of that pillar of our system.

I would also like to re-emphasise the importance of the learner. We are trying to make the learner the centre of this change process so that the focus will be on what the learners need to engage with the labour market or to upskill them in education or training that will help them develop and advance. We will focus more on the learner than the supplier. This is a significant challenge, particularly at a time when there is so much need and such high unemployment. We are trying to ensure the system responds to the needs of learners rather than supply what it has done in the past.

The needs of business must also be considered because it is these enterprises that create vacancies. They need specific skills to be able to fill jobs. We therefore need to join up the link between the needs of the learner and where that person is at in terms of his or her skills and qualifications, and the needs of business and how the Government facilitates a good outcome for both of them.

With regard to provision of delivery for lone parents, one of the key aspects we will look at is how we modernise the way that further education and training is delivered. It will not necessarily be in a classroom from 9 a.m. to 3.30 p.m. or 5 p.m. There are many effective ways to deliver online or blended courses and FÁS has been particularly strong on this over the past 18 months. It has significantly increased online and blended provision and we will look at how we can build on that experience and roll it out across not just the training sector but the further education and training sector. That will, hopefully, meet the needs of some of those who cannot make it at particular times of the day. That will not only meet the needs of the individual; it will also make the system more efficient in terms of the number of people it can engage with and upskill with the money and constrained resources we have. There is a great deal of potential, given the technology and the arrangements and models in place, which have been shown to work in practice.

The intention is that we will, hopefully, publish a draft action plan perhaps in November and we will seek submissions and consult people on it. The implementation group will meet tomorrow will have a discussion on what the consultation process should be with all stakeholders and we would be happy to have a discussion with the committee on the plan when it is ready. It will be open to everyone to make a submission to the Department on it. We see it as an important part of the process that we consult stakeholders on what we have drafted in order that we can make sure when it is finished, it is a plan that will work quickly and will make a difference on the ground. It is correct to state that it is all right to have a strategy but it needs to work in practice to make a difference. That will be the focus of the work.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

We have reached a significant turning point in Irish education. It is a moment of transformation and change and I would like to commend the Minister and the Department for taking up this challenge. While we are only witnessing the broad strokes on the canvas at this point, anything that brings education, training and employment closer together is good. It enriches the participant and that is the dynamic at work. Harnessing that dynamic has been fractured with aspects of training being delivered under different headings. The participant will realise the benefits of it, particularly since the VEC sector will be at the leading edge in delivering this transformation given that it has successfully championed this approach for a long time throughout the country but, particularly, in Dublin city. It is an interesting moment in education.

Senator Deirdre Clune

I thank Mr. Mulligan for his presentation. Like most members, I welcome the establishment of SOLAS. I was listing to a radio report yesterday about the former Dell workers. It was reported that the courses they had been offered by FÁS were not relevant and they were not up to speed with the demands of industry today. Mr. Mulligan stated that the needs of employers and learners must be recognised. How does he envisage change in the context of the type of courses offered? What process will be undertaken? Will it involve training instructors or those teaching the courses transferring information? I am sure a great deal of detail needs to be worked out. Mr. Mulligan said the courses need to be reactive, fast and flexible and to engage with the emerging sectors such as the biopharmaceutical and medical devices sectors and the food industry. I acknowledge the group is only at the implementation phase but how does he envisage things will be different?

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

It is easy to talk about how one would like it to be different and what one wants it to be at the end but the hard bit is to design that into the process. Ultimately, we want it to be in a position where the further education and training sector responds to the need that is there either of a learner or a group of learners on the ground and give them further education and training that will either help them progress to the next level of education, which would be higher education, for example, or help them to get a job. In other words, the training or education should be relevant to the vacancies in the market.

How to design that in is the difficult bit. There are two key elements to how we might do it. One is that at a macro level, we have clear analysis of where our labour market is going in terms of types of occupation. We have significant information on that from the expert group on future skills needs, which will also play a role going forward. Other analyses show us what the occupations of the future will be and what they will not be. I referenced some of them such as biopharmaceutical, ICT and services generally. We are looking at a smaller number working in the construction sector and traditional manufacturing than a few years ago. It is a matter of making sure that analysis at a macro level feeds through from SOLAS to the VECs in terms of the service level agreements it makes. There will be concrete discussion about the content of the courses. We will give them money as part of our service level agreement to provide further education and training but it has to cover certain areas and they will have to get out of some areas they are in and move into others. That will be the analytical and research element having an influence on what happens. That is one way to do that.

The other important way, which we need to develop, is to make sure that, systematically, we have designed in a responsiveness by the VECs to the needs of local employers and local job vacancies. We will have to think about what light but effective structures we have to create in order that there will be a relationship between education and employment and business and we need to make sure there is a feedback loop to the education system from those running businesses who need particular skills. We ideally will arrive at a virtuous cycle where we educate or train people in areas that will make it easy for them to get a job in the labour market and, therefore, help firms to become more productive and to win business in the global marketplace.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Up to now the delivery of training has been disparate. In other words, a provincial town might have FÁS, vocational education committees, county enterprise boards delivering training and perhaps Enterprise Ireland delivering training in particular areas, PLCs, community employment, CE, courses, etc. For the benefit of the user would it not be better if there was a level of integration along the lines of a one-stop-shop for further education and training in local areas? Also, it is costly to the State to provide the infrastructure for each of these separate organisations and if there was a level of integration of these further education training facilities I imagine it would reduce the cost over time. That is my first question.

Second, I have seen some of the FETAC courses and there is a level 5 e-business course the module descriptor in e-business for which was developed ten years ago, and it not changed. If we are using module descriptors in e-business that are ten years old we are training people for jobs that were available ten years ago and are no longer in existence. Also, in the previous system we had training providers looking to get on to the provider's register and it was taking two years before they were even analysed for that to happen. That strikes me again as a way of blocking new talent coming into a training system.

I would be concerned about the timescale of the development of this process in that at least 40,000 people will have emigrated before it is complete. Is there anything that can be done to resolve what is an emergency situation?

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

On the question of the integration of the various players, that is exactly what we are trying to do. We are integrating and merging the two biggest pillars in the space of further education and training. In other words, the further education part provided by the vocational education committees and the training part provided by FÁS. The Deputy is correct. There are other small pockets of training whether it is CEBs, EI or whatever. The core of that involvement is not so much around training but more supporting the business investment. There has to be a demarcation point. There might be potential in having SOLAS examine whether it would be better to support those other enterprise agencies and organisations in some central way and have the VECs do it. That could work. I would not be closed to that idea but it is a question of what is best in terms of the size and the efficiency. From the point of view of integration, we are integrating the two biggest parts of that landscape and hopefully we will then be able to provide a one-stop-shop, as mentioned earlier, for further education and training.

The Deputy mentioned e-business. If we are to make sure that our programme provision is modern, up to date and flexible we must have a system that ensures that the curricula for our courses is up to date. I take the point the Deputy made. We need to design in a continual modernisation of curricula of courses and SOLAS will be looking at how to do that in a systematic way because there is a tendency to introduce a course like the one the Deputy mentioned which is provided until somebody realises there is a big problem with it. We need to design in curriculum modernisation, especially at a time where change happens so fast in the business world that the occupations that existed ten years ago no longer exist, and therefore the training for those occupations must be change at as fast a pace.

The Deputy mentioned the waiting list for the training providers register. Already, work is under way to examine how to change that process to take the bureaucracy out of it while at the same time, and this is an important proviso, ensuring that learners are provided with fully quality assured programmes. There is no point in us rushing to provide courses that do not meet the quality standards or the standards of the regulatory body. There is an important balance to be struck in that regard.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

The waiting list arose before the quality of the courses were even analysed.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

Regarding the timescale, we are in the hands of the Oireachtas to some extent in that there must be legislative change but as I indicated earlier we are doing everything we can to make sure that whenever the key legislative changes happen we are ready to make changes on the ground as quickly as we can after that. It is important not to be in any doubt that this is a significant change management process that cannot be done quickly. The year 2012 is fast approaching in terms of the number of staff and the amount of money involved while at the same time keeping the show on the road, as I put it earlier, to ensure services are not disrupted. Would we like to do it faster? Yes we would but we must make sure that we do not disrupt the service at the same time.

Chairman

On a point of clarity before we move on, regarding the example Deputy Tóibín gave about the e-business course, is there no system in place to pick up on the fact that such a course has not been changed or modernised in ten years?

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

I do not know the specifics of that particular course but-----

Chairman

I am sure there are other courses but that is the example given.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

-----there is an ongoing programme of curriculum development in the training sector and there is an ongoing programme of examining courses to see how many can be discontinued if they are no longer relevant. The answer to the question is "Yes" but I do not know the specifics of that individual course. I am sure we could look at making that system more effective, and that is one of the tasks we will be examining.

Deputy Seán Crowe

On the same matter, Mr. Mulligan spoke earlier about flexibility of the training market and so on and there are probably elements of that e-programme in regard to it but I suppose people want to see that flexibility. As elected representatives people might contact us regarding the fact that they are a week or two weeks away from qualifying to go on a course but flexibility is not shown in regard to that.

An area where many of us as elected representatives would have difficulty concerns this new structure being introduced. It would be helpful for us as a committee and as elected representatives if we could have some sort of structural map to allow us know who is who in regard to it. The Health Service Executive has done similar maps in that regard. The difficulty with the HSE is that it changes it too often but in terms of the witnesses, if we had that map we would at least know who to go to in regard to that. Mr. Mulligan might examine that in the future.

We all welcome the changes such as the establishment of SOLAS and so on but a huge area is the collapse of the construction industry and apprentices within that structure on the apprenticeship completion programme. Again, it is about flexibility, the quality of the course and so on but the difficulty for many of the young people on those programmes is how to move forward following the collapse of the industry. Some of the local authorities have taken up programmes in regard to that. Can Mr. Mulligan give us an indication of the success of those programmes? I am aware that two local authorities, Dublin City Council and South Dublin County Council, are doing that. I do not know if the others are doing it and if they are not, why are they not? Is the Office of Public Works or other Government bodies doing it?

Part of the difficulty seems to arise when someone comes to the last module of the apprenticeship programme. An example given to me in south Dublin is that as part of the directive on completion the apprentice must be paid for the 12 weeks or whatever. The local authority did not have the required funding. The individual in question was in receipt of benefit and went to the social welfare office as that person was not available for work. There must be flexibility in that regard. I suggested that rather than waiting to introduce new legislation we could consider the role of the community welfare officer, who may be able to sign the cheque for the 12-week course. This would eliminate the bureaucratic nightmare in this regard.

Is there any link with schemes in the North with regard to the apprenticeship scheme? In the North that process is linked to State contracts but we have never done this. Maybe we can learn from this and SOLAS can bring about flexibility. In the past flexibility was not shown.

If somebody looks to partake in a course, customer care personnel may indicate that the course is unavailable. Nine times out of ten the person in question will walk away in such circumstances, even if they have been told before that the course is available. One of the Senators spoke about a certain programme the other day. There was funding available from Europe but the funding was not drawn down. Part of the difficulty is that many of the staff working in FÁS were not aware of the availability of programmes or funding. We must bring about flexibility in people responding to existing changes and requirements.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

The Deputy spoke about flexibility and the need for it in staff responses, and I agree with his sentiments. He also spoke about a structural map so that people would know who to call whenever personnel are faced with an issue. It will be particularly important for the public to know where to go whenever it has a need with regard to the further education and training area. We will consider that as part of the action plan so that we can have a clear picture of what the organisation looks like, where that leaves vocational educational committees and how this fits into the overall picture, which includes the Department of Social Protection and the national employment and entitlements service. I hope there will be a bit more clarity in this regard in the action plan to be published and which we will outline.

The Deputy also spoke about redundant apprentices in the construction sector and issues in that regard. We are conscious of those issues and have been for some time. A number of initiatives exist with regard to progressing apprentices who have lost work; they cannot do an on-the-job element because they do not have a job. There have been a number of changes so that such people can progress to off-the-job elements without having to do the previous element. That works for some - although not all - and especially those close to the end of the training.

We had a redundant apprentices scheme until last year, which encouraged employers to take on redundant apprentices and give them training. The apprentices could keep their social welfare entitlements but still have an impact on the employer. Given the problems in the construction sector, that was a difficult ask. In the last budget the Department facilitated FÁS in paying for employers to take on redundant apprentices. We are effectively subsidising their employment, which has worked very well. The scheme has already outrun its targets this year and we will try to ensure we can help as many redundant apprentices finish their training as is possible. They can then look for work, although the domestic construction sector faces many challenges.

We are aware that some local authorities have taken on personnel in this regard but there are financial constraints there as well. We have considered the position in Northern Ireland and have had discussions with other countries aside from Northern Ireland with regard to what is possible. I am very aware that the construction sector in the North is also under quite a bit of pressure. We are considering what is possible not only with Northern Ireland and the UK but also with Australia and Canada, particularly with regard to options for redundant apprentices in finishing training in order to gain qualifications.

The Deputy's last point dealt with staff training. It is important to indicate that our proposed changes - which the Government has decided upon - should not take away from the very significant contribution of staff in the further education and training sectors recently. They have been put under very significant pressure by the economic and labour market circumstances and they have made a very significant contribution already. In a sense, one way to read this is that we are making structural changes that will facilitate an even bigger contribution from staff. I hope that at the end of the process their jobs will be made easier.

Will training be required to ensure staff provide a good service to the public so it can adapt to new circumstances? This will be both required and provided. It was mentioned earlier that we are speaking about a transformation and significant change programme, although it is not always comfortable for people to change. We must support staff as they take that journey with us, as it is an important part of the implementation of the programme. The implementation group is taking this seriously and this will be considered in terms of the action plan. It will be designed within the organisational change for the sector.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I thank the witnesses for the presentation, which I read earlier. I apologise for being late. I have a simple question regarding policies and procedures. The witnesses touched on some of the issues regarding skill sets, and it has been mentioned that it is a great new opportunity with the new agency being set up to replace FÁS. My understanding is that FÁS as it is currently does not have an adult literacy policy, for example. When almost 23% of the adult population are functionally illiterate, with a high level of those early school leavers or people involved in the construction industry trying to upskill, not having an adult literacy strategy within FÁS seems to be strange, at best, or completely irresponsible at worst.

Can we be absolutely sure that the new agency and agencies dealing with adult education or further retraining will have a component to ensure literacy standards of those who are coming under the new agency's umbrella will be addressed? Will there be knowledge as to where such people stand in the world? If a person does not have the fundamental ability to read, the chances of maximising employment potential is fairly low.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

We spoke earlier about the adult education service and literacy is a key part of further education and training. It comes specifically within the further education umbrella. I mentioned earlier that we see it as a key element of helping people at the lowest level of qualifications; we are looking to get them on the ladder in order to allow them to be upskilled and gain employment. We are clear that this is a very important part of the overall strategy and the supports for people in that position.

The Deputy mentioned FÁS and its literacy strategy. In a practical sense, if people working for FÁS come across people with literacy difficulties - it is a challenge in engaging with the programme - they would design the course with that in mind. Quite often a VEC provides the adult literacy support.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

My point is whether it is a matter of policy or is it just an action the FÁS personnel would carry out? I would rather have it as a matter of policy than depend on the goodwill of those working in FÁS.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

I would not say it depends on the goodwill of those working in FÁS. I am not aware of whether there is a specific adult literacy policy. If people running courses come across a person with literacy or numeracy difficulties, they will create course hours for that person to receive adult literacy help. As we merge the further education sector and the training sector, each will bring its strengths to the new integrated sector. The VECs probably have greater strength than the training sector in the area we are discussing and they will bring their experience and expertise in supporting those people to the new integrated sector. The fact that they provide support for FÁS trainees in a number of locations shows their expertise in the area.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Does Mr. Mulligan agree that it should be done as a matter of policy?

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

I agree that adult education including adult literacy is a significant element of further education and training and we should design it into further education and training development in the future.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

Mr. Mulligan rightly pointed out the need for a clearer focus on the needs of learners and the need for flexibility within that. In his paper, he goes on to discuss skills provision and FET provision, but the approach involves identifying skills needs and taking a top-down approach to meeting them, pushing provision down and making it widely available. Does he agree there is a clear need for more flexibility and a bottom-up approach when an unemployed person has identified an opportunity but has a skills gap that is preventing them from availing of it? Such people have nowhere to go. In the past, FÁS has been inflexible in that regard. Will SOLAS do it better? Will the individual flexibility be built in to meet the needs of the person who says: "Look, I know what I want, I know where to get it, and it's just for me"? That is important.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

I spoke earlier about how we can ensure that further education and training programmes are relevant to the needs of the labour market, business and the learner. There is a piece of research about where the jobs are and where they are going to be, and we need to use it to help us to drive the provision. As I said, provision needs to be responsive from the bottom up, responding to the enterprise and skills needs that exist and the vacancies in the job market. That subsequently needs to be matched to the position of the individual learner when he or she walks through the door of the VEC, which will provide both further education and training. The significant elements of the overall picture are the people's educational attainment to date, their capacity to go on a further education or training course, what will be suitable for them, and whether it will help them to get a job in the employment market.

A significant programme that is already in the FÁS training space is the technical employment support grant, which resources individuals to do particular things to meet learning needs they have identified. However, I caution that in a situation where such a significant number of people need upskilling through further education and training, it will be a significant challenge to do something specific for every one of those people. We need to group them in terms of their needs so that we can provide an efficient set of programmes to them in the further education and training space. In that way, while the individual's needs will be met, we will also get efficiencies in the provision. The approach also makes sense in terms of potential progression to higher education or progression to employment. There are a number of pieces of the puzzle and we need to ensure that we put them together. Given the significant financial constraints we are under, there is an imperative to be as efficient as possible in the supports that we give learners and jobseekers in the further education and training space.

Chairman

On that note, will there be a greater emphasis on proper, clear guidance to ensure people are on the right path? Mr. Mulligan said there will be a focus on learning, but will career guidance be a focus as well?

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

We need to design in clear guidance pathways for both jobseekers and other learners. As part of that, the national employment and entitlements service will engage with jobseekers and refer them to further education and training. That is a channel or pathway that some people will follow. Others who want further education and training are not jobseekers and are not on the live register, and they will have other needs. We need to design in a path for them as well. The action plan will clarify the guidance arrangements for different groups. That is particularly important because, otherwise, we might find that people are on the wrong courses for them or even that we have the wrong courses on offer. Given the financial constraints, it is important that we use the money in the best way we can, and the approach I have mentioned is part of that.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O’Connor

I thank Mr. Mulligan for his presentation. Many members touched on this topic, but I will put the question more baldly. Mr. Mulligan talked about the training of employees, whether they come through FÁS or the vocational sector, and said that people will have to go on a journey. Is he confident that training providers will be able to deliver relevant courses? If not, what is he going to do about it? Will they be made redundant or are we going to keep them on and try to train them up in some way? He said that the learners are important and we must focus on them. I ask him to ensure that happens and that the focus is not on the providers, teachers and tutors. I ask him to firm that up for me. He talked about a journey, but I am not quite sure what he means by it.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

I suppose what I mean is the journey the further education and training sector has to take between now and the end of 2012. It will include the people who work in the sector. I mentioned the important contribution that staff have already made in meeting the challenge of the significant increase in need given the numbers of unemployed people who are turning up looking for further education and training support. I suppose they have already been on the journey and we are considering how to help them more effectively. In some cases that will mean reskilling and training the staff - I mentioned that earlier - and in others it will mean redeployment and changing how we do things. Am I confident that can be done? Yes, because there is a significant increase in the number of jobseekers who have been provided with training compared to, say, three years ago and a significant increase in the number of learners being supported through the further education sector. We are already on that journey and it is matter of continuing. It will mean that things will be done differently, there will be change and that will have to be worked through effectively so that at the end of the process we support learners in a more effective way, giving them further education and training they think is relevant and that those who are offering them jobs see as relevant also.

Chairman

I shall take questions from Deputy Fleming and Deputy Lyons.

Deputy Sean Fleming

With the collapse of the construction industry there are wholesale redundancies and thousands of people - plumbers, electricians, blocklayers and so on - who need guidance and support. Is there a clear pathway for these people to progress to a degree - for example, for an electrician to progress to electrical engineering, a plumber to progress to mechanical engineering? What is the format for a pathway for these people? What State supports are available to ensure it is feasible and possible for these people to pursue such courses?

With regard to further education and training in SOLAS, what level of degree courses is available? I understand craftspeople go up to level 6. What can people achieve from these training courses?

Deputy John Lyons

A few people have mentioned the client-centred approach and career guidance. We cannot underestimate the importance of good quality career guidance to increase the employability of a person who enters the doors of further education or the Department of Social Protection when it is assessing the needs of jobseekers. With no disrespect to anybody present, I am fearful this will not be done properly. Sometimes when we try to produce something at national level it does not work as well as it might with a local agency which is in touch with the needs of a particular group. When a person in a low paid job realises that he or she has potential they approach the VEC. What happens is that the career guidance may be haphazard in a particular case. How does one address that issue to ensure that person has access to aptitude tests? Will his or her good points be pointed out, regardless of his or her educational experience? For example, a person who is in that low paid job may come along, having left school at 16 years of age but has huge potential. Will that person have access to the same facilities, had he or she gone for private career guidance and paid a couple of hundred euro, where the career guidance staff or officer would identify their strengths, pointing out that they lie in X, Y and Z, and suggest he or she would be suited to a particular area? I am leaving it quite open. A person's employability would be increased enormously if we hit the nail on the head. I am not seeking a comment on it. I merely want to re-emphasise the importance of good quality career guidance. In order to do that, some of the aptitude tests some career guidance facilities are using do not meet the needs of some of the people. Deputy Ó Ríordáin mentioned already that almost one in four adults of working age is functionally illiterate. Some of the aptitude tests will not identify their strengths.

I was at the Ballymun jobs centre on Friday last for a couple of hours and came back mesmerised. It was one of the lucky local employment schemes that were able to obtain funding from the EU to develop a particular system that mixed a couple of versions of assessing aptitudes and is able to meet the needs of the people where they are at. As well as that, the career guidance person needs to have a sense of empathy for the person who approaches the centre. In other words, he or she must like their job, otherwise they will not hit the nail on the head. They are the real issues that make the difference between the employability of a person and meeting them where they are at and being truly client centred.

Chairman

Mr. Mulligan will be glad to hear that is the last set of questions.

Deputy John Lyons

I wanted to reiterate what people are saying.

Chairman

I am sure the Deputy was given career guidance advice.

Mr. Dermot Mulligan

Deputy Fleming mentioned the significant number of people from the construction sector who are unemployed and asked what pathways are available to them. There are pathways from the craft level into the higher education space and the examples the Deputy gave exist. The real challenge is there is a very significant number of people, formerly employed in the construction sector, who are unemployed now and do not see themselves as going into the higher education space. How do we reskill them in occupations that are not exactly what they were doing but have enough in terms of the content of the occupation or their experience or knowledge that they can be reskilled into a similar job? That is one of the challenges we face. Some people, particularly younger people, could be supported into the higher education space, into the qualifications mentioned. Perhaps that is an area we need to design in as part of the further education and training sectors' role which is one of making sure there is a clear progression from further education into higher education. That is probably not as easy as it could be and we need to think about how to facilitate that. An important issue for those engaging in what we now currently call further education is that their progression into higher education is as easy as we can make it.

Deputy Fleming asked what supports are available to people engaging in further education and training. A range of supports exists. There has been an attempt to try to facilitate, to the greatest extent possible with our colleagues in the Department of Social Protection, engagement in various programmes while at the same time continuing to draw down jobseeker's allowance or whatever. There has been an attempt to make that more flexible. The Deputy asked what level of degree courses is available. As he rightly pointed out they range up to level 6 in the further education and training space.

In terms of the client-centred approach, guidance and challenges and if it will work, I mentioned earlier that I think we are in agreement on the importance of guidance for this process for individuals. The challenge is how to do that effectively for such a significant number of people at a time when resources are scarce - resources in terms of people given that public service numbers are under downward pressure and in terms of funding to support services and programmes. We want an excellent service yet that is a significant challenge given the numbers in need of support. The system has done quite an amount in responding to the significant increase in unemployment and in the numbers it is engaging with. There is a piece of work to be done around clarifying the channels to which I referred earlier, the pathways that people should progress through and, perhaps, some standardisation along the lines mentioned in terms of what people expect. That probably also involves an amount of tailoring the type of service, including the guidance service, that different jobseekers need. There is a piece there around designing elements of the service differently for different groups because their needs are different. Perhaps we can support those groups in different ways and therefore support them more effectively overall.

Chairman

The point was well made by a few Deputies that all the division's hard work will be in vain if there is no proper career guidance service incorporating all the modern tools and not only the old system. That is an element on which we will be concentrating. We can obtain feedback on the progress of the division's action plan at a later stage, support for which I believe is shared by all the members.

On behalf of the committee, I thank Secretary General and all his officials. Some of them got an easier ride today than normal, but we will have plenty of meetings in the months ahead. I thank them for attending. It was good to have them all here just in case some issue arose.

We will have the second presentation in a few moments and the witnesses are welcome to stay for the second half of the meeting if they have the time to do so.

Sitting suspended at 3.31 p.m. and resumed at 3.34 p.m.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Michael Moriarty, general secretary of the Irish Vocational Education Association, IVEA, Councillor Noel O'Connor, president of the IVEA, and Ms Jacinta Stewart, chief executive officer of the City of Dublin VEC. I thank Michael Moriarty for re-arranging some of his other meetings in order to be here today. I appreciate that on behalf of the committee.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I invite Mr. Moriarty to make his presentation on proposals to rationalise the VECs and on the future development of the further education sector.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

I will ask our president, in the first instance, to address the first item, the aggregation of VECs.

Councillor Noel O’Connor

Since the publication of the report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes, an bord snip nua, which proposed that the number of vocational education committees be reduced from 33 to 22, the IVEA has campaigned against the regionalisation of VEC structures and for the retention of local education authorities, closely aligned with their local communities.

In October 2010, the previous Government announced that the current 33 VECs would be aggregated into 16 new entities. The IVEA campaigned to alter that decision up to and beyond the 2011 general election in the belief that the new Government would review upwards the outgoing Government's proposals, but on 29 June the current Government announced that the VECs would still be aggregated into 16 new entities but with different configurations. At this point in time, two Governments, comprising five political parties, have declared for 16 reconstituted VEC entities, probably to be known as education and training boards or local education and training boards.

Arising from the IVEA congress in 2010, the IVEA had moved to a position of arguing for a revised configuration of VECs on an administrative county basis. Subsequently, in April this year, the IVEA standing council agreed and submitted proposals that would have resulted in 20 new VEC entities. Notwithstanding this unprecedented decision by our standing council, which was a big move for us, the Government confirmed the same number of new VEC entities as proposed by the previous Government. The proposed reconfiguration of the current 33 VECs is to result in 16 new entities.

The IVEA is gravely disappointed with this outcome but reluctantly accepts the decision of Government. Many of our VECs are disappointed by the abolition of the local VECs which have served the needs of the local communities for more than eight decades since 1930. It is significant to note that VECs were created in an era of world recession during the Great Depression, and the demise of many VECs is to happen during another era of deep world recession.

The Minister has indicated, however, that the proposed reconfigured VECs will become local education and training boards which can have additional functions as middle-tier education structures. In this context, the IVEA welcomes the expanded role for the new entities in the proposal to establish a further education and training sector under the stewardship of SOLAS, with VECs delivering education and training programmes locally.

The news about the effective abolition of more than half the current VECs needs to be tempered with a vision for the proposed local education and training boards in terms of purpose and functionality. Our VECs need to see some road plan for the future development of the sector in the years ahead.

VECs were established in 1930 and their roles and functions were clearly set out in the 1930 Act. The consolidation of the present nine VEC Acts currently under way will be an opportunity to set out an expanded role for the 16 new entities, and we sincerely hope that this opportunity will be grasped in order that the reconfigured entities will have reformed and expanded roles and functions in keeping with their local education authority status.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

Ms Jacinta Stewart will introduce the first part of the next section of our presentation.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

In terms of the future development of the further education sector, the ground-breaking announcement in July 2011 by the Minister, Deputy Quinn, of the establishment of the new further education and training authority, SOLAS, heralds one of the most significant reforms in the Irish education system for decades. The proposal to integrate the further education and training sectors into one integrated FET sector under the stewardship of SOLAS effectively establishes further education and training as another important pillar of the Irish education system.

For decades, further education has been the Cinderella of the Irish education system, existing on the margins as an extension of the second level sector. Now to be twinned with the training sector in FÁS, the proposed further education and training model more closely reflects the vision of the founders of the vocational education system. The IVEA has long sought the establishment of a further education and training sector and this deep rooted realignment of a distinct further education and training sector is the most significant educational infrastructural reform in decades. That is not fully appreciated by those unfamiliar with the further education and training sector who believe SOLAS is simply FÁS by another name, but nothing could be further from the truth. The long overdue establishment of a further education and training sector recognises the broad educational remit of VECs whose responsibility for cross-community education provision extends from first to second level to a range of community and further education programmes.

In 2009 a co-operation agreement was concluded with FÁS that built upon the growing level of co-operation between VECs and FÁS in recent years. That was probably caused by the separate statutory environments for both sectors. The new legislation will establish SOLAS as the authority overseeing the integration of further education and training, which will include the co-ordination and funding of the extensive range of further education and training programmes on offer around the country. The bulk of the programmes will be delivered locally by the proposed 16 local education and training boards, LETBs, to be formed from the reconstituted VECs. The programmes will focus on future skill needs, with particular emphasis on generic transferable skills so necessary for those in full-time and part-time education, jobseekers or those who are unemployed. The proposed local education and training boards will have a transparent and defined relationship with SOLAS, in the form of service level agreements which will underpin a more strategic and focused approach to skills enhancement. Climbing the skills ladder is the overall objective in order that jobseekers and other learners gain the right sets of skills to support their re-entry into the workforce.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

Reform of this magnitude will challenge us all, especially our member VECs which will simultaneously be engaged in a very difficult aggregation process resulting from the Government decision. In effect, such significant upheaval will require old ways to be set aside and the adoption of a more flexible and adaptive approach to the delivery of education and training programmes. Restructuring the current 33 VECs into 16 proposed local education and training boards, while at the same time establishing an integrated further education and training sector, presents significant challenges for our member VECs and the difficulties of these twin challenges must not be underestimated.

The new and welcome further education and training sector under SOLAS must demonstrate the necessary flexibility by prioritising early identification of changing work patterns, matching skill sets to labour market needs and meeting the changing needs of clients by responding with both flexible and customised education and training programmes. The enhancement of ongoing research capacity and career guidance supports are, therefore, a prerequisite for the further education and training sector if it is to be fit for purpose.

We should not underestimate the challenge to be addressed with the integration of staff from both VECs and FÁS - 800 staff are transferring from FÁS - into a coherent, motivated, training workforce to be employed by the proposed training boards. Time is of the essence and the reform programme must be agreed and implemented as soon as possible. The first meeting of the SOLAS implementation group took place on 31 August to begin the preparation of an action plan, to which reference was made previously.

Broad accountability structures have been identified, with the local education and training boards accountable to SOLAS for the local delivery of further education and training programmes, and SOLAS, in turn, accountable to the Department of Education and Skills. The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, has set out an ambitious agenda for change. SOLAS is charged with ensuring jobseekers and other learners have the necessary skills for the new types of jobs that can be created in growth industries such as pharmaceuticals, information technology, services and green industry. However, meeting the ongoing need for literacy, numeracy and basic education skills must remain a key objective of any education and training strategy in order that all skill levels are addressed. VECs will continue to integrate literacy programmes across all education programmes and their first and second level schools and centres of education.

The IVEA acknowledges the dedication and professionalism of VEC and FÁS staff who have long demonstrated their quality education and training skills to produce graduates and apprentices of the highest international calibre, as witnessed by the numerous awards won at the WorldSkills competitions. The co-operation of teachers, tutors and trainers will be key to the success of the transformation programme to be undertaken and the leadership of senior VEC and FÁS personnel will be necessary to ensure a successful outcome to this long overdue realignment in the education system.

The IVEA welcomes the mainstreaming of further education and training as a distinct sector, side by side with other education sectors. Clearly, an effective transformation needs high level vision and a firm sense of purpose if SOLAS is to implement the necessary transformation programme. The IVEA will work with all the relevant agencies and organisations to bring this project to a successful conclusion.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I, too, welcome the representatives of the IVEA, the president and his colleagues. I thank them for their submissions.

I support the Government's rationalisation programme for the VECs, as I did the plan of the previous Government. The Minister for Education and Skills has decided on 16 entities, in line with the decision made by the previous Government. All of us could come up with different configurations that would also make sense. However, the amalgamation of the City of Cork and County Cork VECs is a cause of concern which has been highlighted for me. A year ago it was proposed that there would be two separate VEC bodies for the city and county of Cork. The amalgamation of the VECS for counties Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim has also given rise to concern. At a previous committee meeting with the Minister I mentioned to him that it was a long journey to travel from Belmullet in west Mayo to Carrigallen, County Leitrim, on the border with counties Cavan and Longford. These areas do not have much in common with one another. If the Government were to give consideration to some reconfiguration, these are the two entities that seem to be causing most concern for people involved in the sector. Overall, there must be rationalisation. It is as simple as that. I accept there have been some changes in terms of abolition or amalgamation since the VECs were established in 1930 such as that relating to the VEC for the town of Tralee, but a complete restructuring is required.

We received an executive summary of the IVEA's submission which was forwarded to the Department on 4 March in response to a request by it in December 2010 for its views on the future of the further education sector. The summary outlined:

The transfer of responsibilities from FÁS to the Department of Education and Skills in the proposed rationalisation of VECs presents policymakers with a real chance to reform the system to the benefit of learners especially those with relatively low qualifications many of whom have been educationally disadvantaged through no fault of their own. This is an opportunity that must not be missed.

I agree entirely with the IVEA's statement. Some of the comments made today run slightly contrary to it. I accept, however, that there are various constituent parts within the IVEA and people from every county are making their own case for a different configuration or why they should be left on their own. The country has changed from when the original structure was put in place. We have had significant investment in technology in the public sector which must be put to good use.

I am a great admirer of VECs. We are all influenced by where we come from and where we represent. I represent the counties of Cavan and Monaghan where we have two top class VECs which do not just provide traditional educational services but also IT services for second level voluntary schools and primary schools. To their eternal credit, during the years VECs have dealt with the emerging needs of learners, local communities and the economy when these needs were not being addressed centrally.

That brings me to the further education sector which has grown considerably. It has and continues to provide a great service for learners and local communities. It also meets the needs of local business. Previously, I stated the further education sector was appended to the second level sector. That was wrong. Its establishment as an entity in its own right within the overall education sector is a welcome development. The establishment of VEC entities and local education and training boards offers more opportunities to VECs which I would like to see get more involved in primary education. There has been a development in west Dublin and perhaps north Kildare of community primary schools. The VECs have been integral in delivering these schools and have done so exceptionally well. I hope to see greater participation by the VECs in the primary education sector in the future. It was not only in my area of Cavan-Monaghan but also in Dublin and elsewhere that VECs had been involved in providing IT services on a more widespread basis than was covered by their vocational education remit.

Mr. Moriarty referred to the WorldSkills competition and the great success of so many young Irish people. That is an important statement to make. We know there have been deficiencies in training and FÁS, but there have been great success stories also. It is important that we highlight what has been achieved and refer to the high standard of education and training provided. This does not in any way excuse deficiencies, be they at the most senior level in FÁS or in local offices.

I welcome the presentation and have no doubt Mr. Moriarty and the vocational education sector will play a very important role in delivering a modern training and skills programme for people of all ages. I hope the sector can develop again by providing IT services and getting involved in primary education.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

I will address some of the issues raised. For three years we have been arguing that the strength of the VEC lies in its deep-rooted identity among local communities. However, I will not rehearse this argument too much. Our fear always was that this identity would be lost through regionalisation. The VEC sector is not an administrative structure; it is much more than that. It involves an education and training authority. The regionalisation of VECs was always of concern to us. However, the battle is over in that regard and, as the document states, two Governments have referred to a figure of 16. We can bang our heads against the wall until the blood runs into our eyes - I am afraid we are doing that now - or we can move on. The specific concerns raised about Cork city and county and counties Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim are ones we raised with the Department and the Minister prior to the decision earlier this year.

My own standing council changed its position from not offering an inch with regard to having one VEC per county to a very brave and significant decision, acknowledged by the Minister, involving a proposal that there be of 20 VECs. Some VECs did not want to be associated with this, but, notwithstanding this, it was an historic decision by us, in recognition of the current state of the economy, to submit a figure of 20. We did so in the hope it would be taken on board by the Government. We were very disappointed that did not happen.

Within the proposals, Cork city and county were separated. Counties Sligo and Leitrim were placed together and, if I recall correctly, County Mayo was placed with County Roscommon. There were not three counties placed together in Connacht, as subsequently published.

We are very keen to have local training and education boards. There are suspicions about VECs. These concern takeovers, for instance, but nothing could be further from the truth. I have been general secretary for 15 years and my vision for the boards is that they will become a middle tier educational support for us and everybody else, including the Department of Education and Skills. We are moving towards this. I am confident that the local education and training boards will provide a middle tier system, so prevalent in every other country. Everything should not be centralised in the Department.

Let me outline two examples, one of which members may be familiar with. The VEC is involved in the transformation of the military barracks in Monaghan into a €35 million educational campus. Local people, with local knowledge, are obtaining the best value for money and liaising with local authorities and others to deliver on the campus. There is another campus in Piper's Hill in Naas, County Kildare. We have moved our headquarters to that campus, on which there is a second level school, a gaelscoil and a community national school. There is also to be a Church of Ireland school. These are examples of what the VECs are doing. Deputy Smith mentioned others, including IT supports and national schools.

The first 16 years of my career were spent as a teacher in the primary sector and as a primary principal. Principals want to get on with education and providing leadership. The building of schools and extensions and buying sites, etc., are not on the curriculum in training colleges. Depending on one's aptitude, one can deliver in this regard, but if the local VEC has a buildings officer and a buildings section which can deliver support to the local community and local schools, that is where we should be heading.

I am banking on the stated public commitments of the Minister and other officials that additional functions will be part of the local education and training boards. Key to this is the establishment of another pillar - further education - within the education sector to join primary, secondary and third levels. For four years we have been seeking this model. When we travel to continental Europe, we see our European colleagues have an integrated sector of further education and training. The slightly dysfunctional twin-track approach we had adopted in Ireland, involving further education within the VECs and apprenticeship training within FÁS, was such that the rail tracks went in the same direction but never met. We now anticipate integration. As we state in our written submission, this will be very difficult to undertake at the same time as a very difficult integration of VECs. However, the result, if successful, will be the most profound reformation of the education and training sector in Ireland. A most significant education and training reformation programme will take place. The VECs, as the deliverers, will face major challenges. The further education authority which will govern the sector is most welcome among the VECs because it will bring credibility and authority to the sector. It will also recognise the further education sector as distinct.

Deputy Seán Crowe

With regard to reconfiguration, many of the relevant points were put to the Minister when he was present and I do not believe he was for changing. He actually referred to the fact that the IVEA had suggested a reduction to 20 VECs as part of his argument for the change. It is highly unlikely he will change his position at this stage.

Mr. Moriarty's submission states the effective abolition of more than half of the current VECs needs to be tempered by a clear vision for the local training and education boards. VECs need to have some plan for the future development of the sector in the years ahead. Has Mr. Moriarty had discussions with the Minister on this matter? Is there a timescale for implementation of the plan? I imagine that, because of the changes facing the whole sector, time is of the essence. We spoke about the new structures, including FÁS. A restructuring plan is required. This must be a priority.

Mr. Moriarty's document refers to the flexibility needed. If any bodies have shown flexibility during the years, it is the VECs. They have responded to the economic difficulties and the needs of learners within the structure. Will Mr. Moriarty expand on the flexibility required in this area?

How does Mr. Moriarty envisage meeting the changing needs of clients and addressing changing work patterns under the new structure? With the coming together of the training organisations under the auspices of the Minister, one would like to think circumstances will be better rather than worse.

However, it all will be down to how that action plan will develop and how the structures themselves will be rolled out. Mr. Moriarty has welcomed the mainstreaming of further training and education, as do all members, but huge challenges lie ahead. I believe it will take a year or two before one gets a sense of how things will roll out.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

I will make some general observations. Representatives of the Irish Vocational Education Association, IVEA, including our president and myself, have called many times in press releases for a road plan or a vision of where we are going. We are clear there will be structural change within the vocational sector and rationalisation to effect savings but we are not so clear about what is around the corner. There has been some reluctance to clarify this because I do not think people know. To be fair to the current Minister, he has made clear, even at the announcement of the establishment of SOLAS, that VECs would have future functions in supporting other schools and providing a broad range of supports to local communities. However, these are generalities and there is much hurt within our sector. The current VECs have been in existence for 81 years. They have evolved over that time and if like me, one comes from a small county such as Carlow, one will recognise the impact of a VEC on its local community. Even City of Dublin VEC, about which Ms Stewart will speak in a moment, has highly integrated local service delivery. VECs actually mean something in people's lives and members of those VECs, be they from the staff side or the parent side or be they public representatives, work together with the executive side. This is highly unusual in a local authority context and happens nowhere else. My organisation, the IVEA, is an integration of both the reserved and executive sides working together as one integral association.

A series of profound change faces the VEC sector. Even more profound will be the challenge to the comfort zones of staff, who have been doing things in certain ways for so long. New challenges will arise for tutors, trainers and teachers in our schools and colleges. Both Deputies have noted that one must put the learner at the centre and I agree. All of us, regardless of whether we are in a trade union or are teachers or are in management or representative bodies such as the IVEA, are here because of the people we serve. We serve students and the end-user of the service. There will be considerable need for flexibility in how programmes are provided. We must provide programmes that suit the needs of the learner and the jobseeker, which might entail weekend programmes, flexible or modular training or whatever it may be. This will be key.

Back in the 1930s and 1940s when the vocational schools were set up, they were the only schools in which the lights were on at night-time. Such schools were community assets and were used by the community both during the day and in the evening and at weekends. We must go back to a position in which all of us must consider the provision of a flexible education and training service to the clients we serve. This is what I mean when I refer to the need for staff flexibility. However, we have a road to climb in this regard.

A final point about which I often wonder concerns future skills needs. We are identifying skills and European publications suggest that 40% of the types of jobs that will exist in 2020 have not yet surfaced and we do not know what they are. A key challenge for the authority itself, supported by the expert group on future skills needs, Forfás and others will be to identify what kind of jobs will be needed by 2015 or 2020. Moreover, the second challenge for us all, public representatives and those in the educational service sector, concerns whether those jobs can be provided in an Irish context. We can train all we like but the jobs must be there and given the current unemployment figure of 450,000, this will be a serious challenge facing us.

I will ask Ms Jacinta Stewart, chief executive officer of City of Dublin VEC, the largest VEC in the country, to take up some other examples of practical matters.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

I will revert to Deputy Ó Ríordáin in respect of literacy but first I will make a point to Deputy Crowe that VECs are about the local. We belong to Crumlin, Ballyfermot, Inchicore and the north inner city and we know our areas. The huge advantage we have to begin with is we know where we are. As any VEC chief executive officer will confirm, the focus is local rather than national. We are conscious of and have huge concerns regarding what is happening in those areas and are aware of the numbers of unemployed. This time of year is our busy period. City of Dublin VEC has a freefone number, 1800 20 40 80, for the month of September. People may call and ask for advice if they are interested in any course. We have guidance counsellors on standby to talk to people individually and this year, to use it as a practical example, we found we were having long sessions with individuals who had never experienced unemployment before.

On a visit to Crumlin College of Further Education, I learned of a meeting between its guidance counsellor and a man who was in his mid-40s. He had worked for more than 20 years, his mortgage was paid off but he did not know what to do with the rest of his life. He had left the construction sector, in which he had been a manager who was highly skilled at what he did, but now did not fit in anywhere. Such a person requires a lot of individual support and help. If this initiative works, and we really want it to, it is our job, particularly regarding the local plans, to ensure we are in contact with people and that they can get proper access. While I do not think we always will do everything right, it will not be because we do not wish to try and this must be what it is about.

As for literacy, Mr. Dermot Mulligan noted earlier that we must up-skill half a million people by one level. The future skills plan of 2007 noted the requirement to up-skill 38,000 people by a minimum of two levels because their starting level was not as high as it should be. I will use Deputy Conaghan's college as an example to illustrate a point regarding literacy that worries me somewhat. A number of years ago, Inchicore College of Further Education developed level 5 and level 6 child care programmes particularly for people who already were working in the community. The adults who returned to pursue the courses did not have the old idea of a literacy problem. However, they lacked experience of skills such as report writing or synopsising documents. Consequently, we built in a component which we call learning resource time, rather than literacy.

When someone needs additional help, we can provide it on the programme and it is targeted at the needs they have. This was very much a local response to a local problem and my point is that in the national development, one must be extremely careful not to lose the local element. At one stage of my life I worked in Monaghan VEC and one night was sent out to Aghabog, if that is the correct pronunciation. I got lost going there and had to be pulled out of the ditch. While I probably will be lynched for saying it is in the middle of nowhere, even though it is only four miles from Monaghan, the point is that courses were operating in Aghabog. Night courses and blended courses are not new for us.

An interesting point in respect of night school across Dublin city at present is that people are struggling hard to pay fees because night courses must be self-financing. Consequently, were some structural changes to take place, they would make a big difference to people for access. The huge advantage VECs have is that we have a local presence everywhere. There is no part of Dublin city, for example, in which the VEC does not have a presence. Deputy Lyons mentioned the local employment service in Ballymun earlier. It is linked directly to Whitehall College of Further Education and the courses we provide there on PC maintenance link directly back to the Ballymun local employment service. When developing plans, one must be sure to retain this local aspect. While I have hogged attention a bit, this issue is of huge importance.

Senator Michael Mullins

I welcome the delegation and congratulate Mr. Moriarty on his recent appointment by the Minister to the board of FÁS. The debate about reconfiguration is over and it is positive that the IVEA has decided to accept the Government's decision. In my own area, Galway city and county VECs have been amalgamated with County Roscommon VEC. There was some concern about losing the county's identity but we have probably moved on from that now. We must welcome this development by the Minister and the Government, which is inspired and shows a lot of joined-up thinking. I also welcome the fact that the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon, from my own constituency, is the chairperson of the implementation body.

Like other speakers, I wish to place on record how pleased I am that VECs will be at the centre of delivering and developing the further education sector. The VECs have had a strong presence in all communities in every county and, in recent years especially, they have done amazing work. The leadership in every VEC has developed the sector into a really strong one. At this time of great challenge for our country it is important that VECs would deliver all publicly funded courses. There is great confidence that the job will be well done by the VECs, although I know there will be difficulties, problems and major challenges ahead.

What major obstacles does Mr. Moriarty foresee in the immediate future? What has been the initial reaction within the VEC sector to the Minister's announcement? The implications for staff obviously will be quite significant. Has Mr. Moriarty received any indication from the Minister as to where the VECs' headquarters will be located? That is the next major concern.

We have unprecedented levels of unemployment so the challenge for this new body is to provide relevant training and development. There must be a major emphasis on innovation and getting back to trades, which was not the case during the Celtic tiger years. We must get young people interested in creating jobs for themselves and others.

It is an exciting time and I agree that we can build on success stories of the past, including our performance in various international competitions. At a time of profound change, I wish the VECs well in their exciting role in the coming years. I pay tribute to them and compliment them on the amazing job they have done. I would like to see the VECs branching out and getting involved in primary education as well. They have a major challenge now, but the new plan is a major development for the VECs. I hope the Minister's plan will be embraced by everyone involved in both organisations. It will probably take time for things to gel, but perhaps Mr. Moriarty can indicate how things are going so far with this process.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

The best judge of that is our recent conference which was held last week. Resignation is the overriding feeling at this stage, in addition to exhaustion. There is also a degree of latent anger in some quarters, especially in the Cork VECs. Under the previous plan they were not amalgamated, while under this one they will be. There is anger and upset in certain quarters, but overall we want to move on. The Government's decision has been taken twice and it is final.

It is important to say, however, that we do not want the local education and training boards to be just bigger VECs. We want them to be training boards and education authorities that have real feet and will add significantly to the delivery of Government objectives. We want those boards to work in a strategic fashion with SOLAS. We want SOLAS to be the authority, while the education and training boards will be separate in terms of being statutory bodies charged with the entirety of delivery at local level. We accept that those boards should be performance managed and based on outcomes. Their plans should be strategic and in line with the objectives set by SOLAS. We want SOLAS to work together, coherently and in harmony with the national employment and entitlements service and the education and training boards. It is a huge reformation for us in the VEC sector, including the education and training boards, which is a working title that will be reflected in the final name. We want that to be an authority with substance and teeth that can deliver for the Government. If we come back here in three or four years time with different titles under our names, representing training boards, we want the committee to be broadly happy with what has happened.

When the departmental officials were before the committee earlier, someone asked about timelines, which are critical. We have a huge job to do, but unemployed jobseekers and those who need reskilling and retraining cannot wait. We must address this matter in a coherent fashion and avoid duplication. If the boards are to function as education and training bodies, they should be charged with delivering such services in local areas and held accountable for the delivery of education and training services. If they cannot do it themselves, they should be charged with contracting others to do so. As a statutory authority accountable to the Government, the board will be accountable to SOLAS and, in turn, to the Department for the delivery of quality education and training services within the relevant areas.

The Senator asked about the location of a headquarters and the Minister has said that will be a ministerial decision. He has received many varied submissions. When the Department surveyed the VECs on this matter originally, there were no surprises where each VEC wanted the headquarters to be. We are in the dark as much as everyone else as to where the headquarters will be.

There will be staffing issues as well. Under the Croke Park agreement there is a maximum distance of 45 km beyond which staff are not required to travel. There will also be issues of leases and ownership of buildings. The original an bord snip nua McCarthy report envisaged savings of €3 million, which were to be realised through staff salary savings. Under the Croke Park agreement, of course, there can be no forced redundancies, although staff may be redeployed somewhere within the public sector. If there are to be savings, they will be in the medium term. Completing the process by 2012 will be rather ambitious because there are many parties, including trades unions and others, to be engaged. The quicker that happens, the better because any process of change is complex and we have to bring all the partners along a difficult road with a twin track approach to amalgamate the VECs and to establish SOLAS.

Councillor Noel O’Connor

Our committees will continue to exist until the next local elections, which means some meetings will be large. For example, the Deputy mentioned the merger of the three VECs in counties Galway and Roscommon. All three will meet in one room the next few times. That will be a logistical problem but from the point of view of the members of the VEC who are selected by the political process, it is probably best because they were selected for the job and they will do it.

It is important from our point of view to acknowledge the work of the staffs of the VECs and the chief executive officers down through the decades. They served their local communities often beyond the call of duty and it is fitting that we have an opportunity to acknowledge their work through the years. We will ask the Minister to ensure the committees representing the new local education and training boards are large enough to give adequate representation to public representatives, parents, staff and community interests in forming the new entity. The IVA, as Mr. Moriarty said, has long argued that VECs derive their connectedness from local communities and that committee representation is the voice of the local community and we want to maintain that connectedness to the local community.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

We are at a moment of transition, change and challenge. The VECs have a great deal to draw on to meet those challenges. I refer to two examples in Dublin where they straddle the continuum of education, training and employment. Ballyfermot College has rewritten the film animation industry over the past 25 years to a point where its graduates garner prestigious prizes and marks of recognition such as Oscars. That is a great strength and that can be multiplied across the spectrum in the new economy. Every further education college in Dublin has been to the forefront.

The VEC sector has great resources and inspiration to draw on from the past and the present day. For example, the committee examined the new Grangegorman campus. All the individual colleges such as the catering college, the colleges of music and art and design, Kevin Street and Bolton Street that make up the Dublin Institute of Technology were nurtured and cultivated by the Dublin VEC from the 19th century long before the 1930 Act. Some people think the history of the VECs began in 1930s but there was a broad European wide pioneering educational movement from the end of the 18th century onwards which provided the origins of the impulses we are talking about in terms of the colleges in Dublin. A deep well and great corporate memory is available in the context of taking action and facing up to challenges and VECs have had a transformative effect not only in every community, but also in the prisons of Dublin.

The VECs have developed credibility over time. Since the demise of the church as a key player in the education sphere, no other public body has the experience of managing huge educational resources in a competent and credible way. No one has ever been turned away from the gate of a VEC school or college and that is a measure of the depth of the credibility that is instinctively recognised throughout the country. Deputy Smith mentioned other attributes of the VEC sector with great passion and knowledge and I am delighted these challenges are being handed to the committees because no other bodies are as well equipped to take them up and to succeed.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

The Deputy mentioned credibility and previous speakers mentioned community national schools, for example. VECs as local education authorities are in the State sector. The media ignore the community national school model. There are five community national schools - three in County Dublin, one in County Kildare and one in County Meath. I have raised the issue with producers and so on during debates on radio and television because there is a lack of understanding, awareness or appreciation of the role the State can play in national schools. Community national schools are a great answer to the needs of communities. They provide both non-denominational and denominational education under one roof. It is what it says on the pack. It is a community school and irrespective of one's religious persuasion, those needs will be addressed within this model.

A patronage forum has been set up, which we have addressed, and we are anxious that the State takes up its role in primary education. It does not do so. It has a role through the VECs and community schools in second level education but it has never taken up a role in primary education. The entirety of primary education is provided by the private sector. National schools are supported and I am anxious that this be continued and that it is not spiked or reversed. Perhaps we have focused a great deal on the training board part of our role but if a VEC's education board is to be meaningful to the entirety of the community, it should on behalf of the State be able to deliver direct educational services and provide primary education through the community national school model.

I want to be relevant to all sectors. We often refer to VECs providing courses from the cradle to the grave and the campus model is based on that idea. It starts with the crèche and one can still be on the same campus at the age of 90 availing of adult education services. We need to look at VECs and that is why I was delighted the committee took the amalgamation agenda with Forfás because one is contracting while the other is a blossoming flower. However, we could end up with a better, stronger and more vibrant vocational educational sector going forward.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin took the Chair.

Deputy Seán Kyne

The current and previous Governments had a mandate for cost reduction and streamlining not only of VECs but of a range of different bodies within the public sector, including local authorities. For example, local authorities in Tipperary and Limerick have been streamlined. The most important aspect from the public's point of view is that the service provided by the VECs down through the years be maintained. That is the IVA's worry rather than the administration within each county. We all acknowledge the great role played by the VECs in providing education. In west Galway, the new school in Claregalway was seeking patrons and the VEC was the only patron identified. The church is moving out of the education sector and Educate Together was not interested. The VEC has a great role in patronage.

Like Senator Mullins, I am concerned about the amalgamation of the three committees in counties Galway and Roscommon. County Roscommon VEC might be worried it will be lost in a merger with the Galway VECs. County VECs have always been regarded as subservient to city VECs. However, with good representation on the boards, that need not be a problem.

Mr. Moriarty spoke about his areas of County Carlow. If the name over the door changes from County Carlow VEC to County Carlow and County Kilkenny VEC, what is his concern about the impact of this? Surely, elected representatives for each area will bring their own county interests to the board to ensure parity between the different counties.

From next year, City of Dublin VEC will have a role in higher education grants. I know from my role on the county council that it was a nightmare when each council was administering grants. Does the IVEA have any information on how it is going to manage the administration of grants for the whole country in terms of staffing, training and the contact that takes place when someone goes to a local representative to find out what stage their grant application has reached? What problems will there be in getting that information? A local councillor can go in and talk to staff, but it is not practical for someone in Galway to go and talk to staff in City of Dublin VEC and getting information over the telephone is sometimes not as easy as it should be.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

I will take the first question. The size matters. The Deputy mentioned Galway and also counties Carlow and Kilkenny. I probably have a cultural difficulty in that I have always been attracted to the idea of having local bodies employing local people to deliver local services. That approach is not bad and can be efficient. Deputies and Senators are well aware that in many places the local national school is under threat, the creamery and the post office have gone. Rural Ireland is becoming a desert. We used to say urban areas were impersonal places, but rural Ireland is becoming like this. People are isolated because there is nowhere for them to meet. Local services are important for supporting communities and those who are isolated. The VECs have a huge social role in providing community employment and in the community hall teaching people various skills and providing training. That is their core business; going right back to the 1930s, that is what they have been good at. My only fear is whether that will change when it becomes very big. Our history of regionalisation has not shown it to be a marvellous solution to any problem. That is my only fear, but it is probably a cultural thing for me as I think the VEC is the last bastion of society. I remember agricultural committees, although only barely, and there were all sorts of other committees on a county basis. However, times are changing and we have to move on. We live in different times.

I ask Ms Stewart to comment on the point about student grants.

Deputy Damien English took the Chair.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

Like every other VEC in the country, we have provided a grant service during the years. As members know, the service is provided between the county councils and the VECs. There has been a belief it should be provided by one national body, as this would lead to a more efficient and comprehensive service. The downside will be the loss of contact with local representatives. In the past three years we have developed an on-line system for grants. We also have our own internal software system to operate them. Approximately 32,000 people went on-line in the first year. That approach should mean grants are provided more quickly than previously. When the Department of Education and Skills called for expressions of interest, a number came from VECs and county councils and I think there was one from a national body. We made a presentation to the Department and were selected on the basis of our experience. We are engaged in negotiations with the Department of Finance, which is an interesting experience. We want to provide a single national service. The services in VECs and councils will not vanish for the next two or three years, as they will continue to serve people who have taken up courses this year.

We are going to have to be clever in how we get the information out. There are frequently asked questions on the studentfinance.ie website which is provided through the HEA, but we need to do more of this. We are examining the communication aspect. There is a huge amount of knowledge available and it is important we do not lose it. We hope that in the end there will be greater efficiency and people will be paid more quickly. It looks as if we have a 30% increase in the number applying for grants this year, and we also had increases last year and the previous year. However, there are huge challenges in the giving of grants.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I thank the delegates for their presentation. I will make three quick comments, one on the community primary school, one on the literacy strategy and one on the overall structure.

When I listened to Deputy Conaghan talking about the waning influence of the Catholic Church on education, I was reminded of a phrase uttered by someone else in a different context: "They haven't gone away, you know." I was going to ask the delegates for their views on the VECs' involvement at community national school level, but as they have already answered the question, I will not pursue it.

I appreciate the comments the delegates made on the literacy strategy. They pre-empted some of what I was going to say. They had obviously listened to my comments and questions to the previous panel. I understand absolutely what the VECs are doing on literacy. Many VECs, including the one in Dublin, which I represent, are located in areas of social disadvantage with high levels of adult illiteracy. My point is that we need a policy framework to be embedded in every education institution in order that when we deal with adults, parents and the community at large, there is an understanding of the levels of illiteracy. We need to work beyond the current frameworks. At primary level, there are five policies that every primary school has to have, but a literacy policy is not one of them. I am not talking about a subject on the curriculum but about the way in which a school engages with the wider community. There should be a policy framework in place for this.

The third item I want to mention is the overall structure of the VECs and political involvement. I make this point with the greatest respect to the president. I am on the board of management of a VEC, not as a councillor, which I was in my previous political existence, but as the principal of a primary school, and the structure strikes me as a little odd. Will the delegates comment on the level of political involvement by councillors and the fact that they are, in effect, the chairpersons of the boards of management? Does this structure offer the best way forward and is this the way it should be from now on? Does it need examination? Is there a danger of conflicts of interest all over the place? Various health boards were dismantled or changed as a result of accusations of local political interference. I am not suggesting anyone on a board anywhere in the country is doing this, but I have questions on the issue. If a chairperson is trying to drive a board of management and maximise the education potential of the student body, should they be unconcerned with matters political?

Mr. Michael Moriarty

As I am not a councillor, my answer will be based on my experiences. The executive side of the VEC values the input of the committee because the committee is the baseline for reality. It is in touch all the time with the voice of the community. A considerable number of the 300 delegates who attended our annual congress last week were public representatives, and others were teachers, parents and staff. That reflects the composition of the VECs. While I have not been involved in the political system, I do not doubt the honesty and integrity of people within it, including all of the members present, who make great personal sacrifices in serving the community. Within the education sector it is a matter for the VEC to decide who will be its chairperson. In my 15 years and among our 250 schools, in private and public, I have never received a complaint about a fear of political interference. For two and a half days at conference public representatives, our chief executive officers, principals and others debated the bigger education and training issues of society of concern to their communities and there has been no evidence of politicisation. Even within the composition of my officer board, more than one party is represented. If it had been political, only one party would have been represented. Within the VECs we are very conscious of a commitment to educational ideals. In my travels to VECs for many years I find that the public representatives on the boards are people who are genuinely interested in education and training, as they have demonstrated. This does not mean, however, there might not be some who are politically motivated, but I do not think that is the case. The conference debates have been excellent. People come with prepared scripts and present excellent ideas. Members have given examples in the past two hours of incidents in their local community. They also bring a great wealth of experience to the sector. I have never received any complaint or otherwise about political interference.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

Local political representatives have great knowledge of their community. In our case they would be heavily involved in sub-committees discussing developments in the city. They are also involved, for example, with Dublin City Council, which means, for example, that Larkin College has a sports facility with an Astroturf pitch for matches. Therefore, there are places where there is co-operation. My experience is a very good one and like Mr. Moriarty, I am obviously talking from experience. I do not know if the Deputy is asking if there is a party political slant or something like it, but that is not how I have seen it.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Not at all. I did not mean any disrespect to anyone. I asked the question to see what the reaction would be.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

They have given great service which is highly valued.

The Deputy is correct on the issue of literacy. At the same time there is both knowledge and no knowledge. Therefore, we need to be more active in raising awareness of literacy programmes. This varies somewhat and I am not sure why that is the case, but it is something we need to consider.

Councillor Noel O’Connor

Obviously, this topic is close to my heart. While I cannot comment on the Deputy's personal experience, I can comment on the fact that I have been a member of a VEC for 15 years. Some local authority members are doctors, while others are farmers and teachers. I was a teacher for many years. Therefore, they come from backgrounds other than political.

One of the big contributions a local authority member can make on a board of management is understanding the governance structures of a public body. In other words, a local authority member who is appointed to a body, say, an agricultural or other sub-committee, knows the rules. When first elected, he or she learns them from his or her colleagues. A local authority member on a board of management knows what he or she can and cannot ask about, and knows the procedures involved. Members of boards of management who have not been involved in politics lack much of this. On the few boards of which I am a member, the principals involved have asked me to become chairman. It does not happen by virtue of the fact that I walk into the boardroom and say I want to be chairman. They want to avail of experience which counts for a considerable amount. Local authority members are doctors or farmers and most have some career before becoming a local authority member. I know boards of management where the politician is not chairman.

In the new structure of VECs we want representation. It is the policy of the IVEA that the LETBs be big enough to involve parents, teachers and public representatives.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

And communities.

Councillor Noel O’Connor

Yes. We have had community representatives for a while and it seems to work very well, with political representation. We would include elected representatives among the list of individuals we want to see represented on the new boards.

Deputy Nicky McFadden

I thank the delegation for a wonderful presentation and appreciate their coming here. I agree with Ms Stewart that local knowledge is so important and that VECs are deeply connected with the community. I join Councillor O'Connor in wishing the staff well in the transition, as I really appreciate the work they have done.

I congratulate Mr. Moriarty on his appointment to the board, which met on 31 August to put in place an action plan for SOLAS. When will it meet again? How will the implementation plan incorporate the 800 staff from FÁS and the very valuable VEC staff, administrators, teachers and tutors? It is a major task, in which I wish the board well. I again compliment Mr. Moriarty on his appointment.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

Thank you, Deputy. The implementation group is chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon. That the Government would appoint a Minister of State to chair the body indicates how seriously it is taking the issue. The first meeting was held on 31 August and the next will take place tomorrow. Those involved were the CEO of the IVEA and me, two people from FÁS, as well as officials from the Departments of Social Protection and Education and Skills. At the first meeting we scoped the issues involved. The documents highlighting them were well prepared. When I get home tonight, I will read the file before the second meeting takes place tomorrow. We are at the very start of a process to ascertain how matters should be integrated. The Minister's press release stated there would be a transfer to the VECs "in time". Integrating staff from different cultures will present the single biggest challenge. FÁS staff spread throughout the country have had an association with VECs. There has been a co-operation agreement with the vocational sector for some time and City of Dublin VEC and other VECs have had good relationships with FÁS locally. Therefore, the integration of the 800 staff might be somewhat easier than anticipated. Changes in work practices and how we meet learner needs present a challenge that we all need to address because we will have to work outside our comfort zone. There is an ambitious target to have a draft plan in place by the end of November and to then consult the various interested bodies and partners. I imagine the idea is to get buy-in from the relevant partners for the integration and training programme.

Deputy Nicky McFadden

Will the draft plan be brought before the committee?

Mr. Michael Moriarty

I am sure it will. There will be no secrets in the plan. It will be brought to all the relevant partners, including the committee.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

I am conscious we have not touched on the matter of progression and I want to mention it. Someone spoke about us going from level 1 to level 6 and a number of the colleges have gone beyond this. I wish to tell one personal story to provide an idea of what can happen. A student attended Pearse College of Further Education and completed the old NCEA level 2 certification in applied science and horticulture. She got a job as a rural field officer for Conservation Volunteers Ireland. She completed a certificate in conservation studies at Griffith College Dublin, completed a three year diploma in amenity horticulture at the National Botanic Gardens in Dublin and then worked with Diarmuid Gavin. This shows progression routes for students exist and we need to emphasise this in the plan.

Chairman

This leads to a question I want to ask, which is who watches where the students end up. The witnesses who attended the committee prior to the delegation present stated they will monitor outputs and outcomes.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

Yes.

Chairman

To me, these are progression and jobs.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

Yes.

Chairman

After restructuring, whose job will it be to monitor where people end up and see whether they fall out of the system again? Will someone mind them and bring them through to the next stage or onto a job? Who will look after this?

Mr. Michael Moriarty

I will answer. In broad terms, the supervision of the scheme will be a matter for the authority in co-operation with local service deliverers. Previously, I mentioned there is a commitment to have a greater hands-on approach between the national employment entitlements service, SOLAS and the deliverers to see that people do not fall through the net and that the real needs of people are met. This is why this is so important.

The guidance service is crucial to this, and the Department answered questions on this earlier in the meeting. At present, the adult guidance service is under severe pressure, not because of a huge increase in demand but because staff are not being replaced. It is correct that the first point of contact for anyone in education or training should be in guidance. People should not be merely directed towards education, training or skills but should be managed and minded. Everything should be turned around in order that there is not a multiplicity of bodies or Departments providing education and training and that it is streamlined, brought together and made coherent in order that the service user understands it. We are wasting our time, however, unless we have a well-staffed guidance service supporting the process.

Ms Jacinta Stewart

At local level, institutions such as Ballsbridge College of Further Education and Ballyfermot College of Further Education have guidance councillors who are excellent on progression because they have practical experience. We need to marry this to the new national set-up.

Chairman

There is a need to ensure this happens.

Deputy Áine Collins

One of my questions has been answered. I wish the witnesses well with the changes that are ahead. It is a very exciting time and it will be very good for Ireland as it is what we need to do.

I have another question but I am not sure whether it is outside the scope of the meeting. Recently, I was involved in a matter with regard to dyslexia, which I know is an issue in primary schools. Some evidence exists to suggest that dyslexia is quite a problem in Ireland and that it can be inherited. However, it is not being addressed. Do the witnesses have any comments on this?

Ms Jacinta Stewart

The Department ran a pilot programme whereby further education providers ran a disability support service. We brought in the expertise of the National Learning Network to do this. At the time, we had identified five students as having a disability. At present, the number is approximately 160 such students. We are learning all the time and we are amazed that people have come through the entire system but are struggling when they reach further education. Some of it is dealt with through learning resources but a person with mild dyslexia may not be identified and can go through various parts of the system before they encounter a problem. Some people may also suffer from dyspraxia. We provide a service in a number of colleges and I would like this to be extended to every college. I ask the committee to examine ways of improving and developing this. We have a psychological service in Dublin city and we identify people who slip through the system. People do not always tell us they have a problem and a further education level teacher can suddenly realise in class that a student has a problem. We ask students to identify whether they need support but many of them are reluctant to do so. Guidance councillors have a role to play in how colleges deal with this.

Chairman

On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for engaging with us in a worthwhile way. I also acknowledge that the witnesses embrace the change that is occurring. They might not like it or agree with it but it is very obvious that they will do what is right, and rather than delay it, they will implement it as best they can. The Irish Vocational Education Association has a significant part to play in the implementation of change and it is vital it has a strong voice. It is very obvious from today's meeting that it has the service users at heart, which is essential. I hope the witnesses are correct that they will attend the committee again after several years with new positions and titles and that the change will have been successful.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.57 p.m. and adjourned at 5 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 21 September 2011.