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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Mar 2012

Education Issues: Discussion with Ombudsman for Children

I welcome Ms Emily Logan, the Ombudsman for Children, Mr. Páraic Walsh, investigator, and Ms Deirdre O'Shea, investigator.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in regard to a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should neither criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Before I ask Ms Logan to begin, I remind members that the Office of the Ombudsman is independent. The delegates cannot and will not discuss any individual case. The Office of the Ombudsman for Children published a report this morning. Since it is in the public domain, it is up to Ms Logan to decide whether she wants to discuss it, bearing in mind that doing so is probably different from discussing most individual cases. I remind members to ask questions on policy matter only. Should Ms Logan want to deal with the report, she can do so during her presentation. I assume that individual cases are not part of today's discussion.

Ms Emily Logan

Good afternoon Chairman and committee members. I thank you for the opportunity to meet the committee. The Chairman referred to my role as independent Ombudsman for Children. I will not assume that everybody is familiar with the office, so I will give a brief outline of the statutory function of the office.

The Office of the Ombudsman for Children was established under primary legislation, the Ombudsman for Children Act 2002. Following an open competition, I was appointed by President Mary McAleese as Ireland's first Ombudsman for Children in December 2003 for a period of six years and was reappointed for a second term in December 2009. In carrying out my statutory functions I operate independently of Government, as the Chairman said, and account directly to the Oireachtas. The independence of my office has been a critical feature in the development of a credible and independent institution for children.

My principal responsibility is to promote and monitor the rights and welfare of children and young people up to the age of 18 years, including the rights set out in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. The Ombudsman for Children Act 2002 confers powers on the Ombudsman for Children that go beyond the functions of the traditional Ombudsman. In addition to providing for a complaints-handling and investigative function, the Act mandates the Ombudsman for Children to advise Ministers on law and policy relating to the rights and welfare of children. It is of note in the context of today's discussion that no legislation has emerged from the Department of Education and Skills relating to children since the office was established in 2004.

The Act also provides that the Ombudsman for Children shall consult children and young people directly and highlight issues that are of concern to them. Direct engagement with children and young people is a core element of the work. I was interviewed for the post by 15 young people, the youngest of whom was 11 years and the eldest was 17 years. The nature of the engagement with children takes place in the context of visits by schools to the Office of the Ombudsman for Children, which is located in Dublin 1. It is a relaxed and friendly environment and if constituents would like to visit, they are welcome. In terms of school visits, two teachers and their pupils come twice weekly from all over the country to hear about our work. Other examples of direct contact with children include our recent project with 35 children under the age of 18 years detained in St. Patrick's Institution and with separated children, living in Ireland without a legal guardian or parent.

In the context of education, I met Professor John Coolahan in 2011, who is chairing the group on pluralism and patronage. We made a submission to the Department of Education and Skills on the regulatory framework for school enrolment. We commissioned research late last year on the education of children who are in care of the State. Education provides an anchoring opportunity for those children. This exploratory research project aims to identify concrete, practicable measures for implementation by relevant services within the education and social care systems that can support attendance and participation by children living in the care of the State.

My office can investigate complaints made directly by children or by adults or by a third party on their behalf. We investigate public bodies, which include schools, public hospitals and the HSE. The key criteria for my intervention is that a child has or may have been affected by the action or inaction of a public body and that there was or may have been maladministration, as described in the Act. I can also initiate investigations, of my own volition, so I do not necessarily need a member of the public to make a complaint to me. We are currently undertaking a number of what we describe as "own volition" investigations.

The Ombudsman for Children Act 2002 provides that in the performance of my complaints and investigations functions, I shall have regard to the best interests of the child and that in so far as is practicable, I must give due consideration, having regard to the age and understanding of the child, as to his or her wishes. These are two key principles that I ask the committee to bear in mind in their work - the application of the best interest principle, when considering a decision about children and also the possibility of engaging directly with a child or family. In carrying out our complaints function people often assume that we advocate for the child. In the context of an investigation, I am bound by the principles, as is any other ombudsman, of impartiality and independence. In that context we are not allowed to assume the role of an advocate.

To date my office has received more than 6,000 complaints. In 2011 the office dealt with 1,491 cases. This represents a 22% increase in the number of complaints received in 2010. The majority of complaints received, and this has been consistent over the seven years, are made by parents. Last year this represented 75% of all cases that came to our office. It is our experience that parents are the principal advocates for children's rights and welfare. This points to the question about children who do not have parents, who are able to advocate on their behalf.

The committee will be interested to know that the proportion of complaints relating to education increased last year from 37% to 47%. In 2012 education complaints related to both schools and the Department of Education and Skills, with the vast majority relating to primary schools.

Like other ombudsmen offices, the Ombudsman for Children provides a free, impartial and independent complaints handling service. It is designed to be an alternative to the courts and is more expeditious than the courts. It is worth noting that in these difficult fiscal times, ombudsmen make significant savings to the State by providing this alternative redress mechanism to the public. In a review of pivotal cases by my office, Professor Ursula Kilkelly, a professor of child law in UCC stated that in her opinion many of the cases in question would have certainly been brought before the courts had they not been investigated by my office.

I would like to acknowledge that in the entire duration of my tenure, a parent has never contacted the office seeking compensation. They generally want the difficulties facing their child alleviated, and in very many cases they repeat a wish to ensure that other children do not have to endure their own experience. The information obtained through the receipt, examination, and investigation of complaints by the office continues to provide valuable insight into the experiences of children and families in dealing with public services. As such it allows my office the opportunity to not only improve the situation for individual children but to also bring about systemic change. While the individual case is important to the child and family, we select cases at our discretion which we think will deliver a greater result for many children. I believe that in addition to securing children's rights, my office plays a critical role is contributing to public sector reform, and on the commentary of public sector reform affecting children and families. Parents often tell us of the difficulties they face when engaging with multiple agencies. We had a mother last year who was engaging with 21 individual people across multiple agencies. This places a major burden not only on the child but on the family. I would like to see better integration across agencies to alleviate this burden for families, in particular the families of children with special needs or chronic illness. It is a dominant feature of investigations, that with few exceptions they highlight a lack of awareness about the impact of public administrative decision-making on the lives and rights of children and their families. Today I published a case on our website to illustrate some of those difficulties that families face.

Decision-making that affects children directly and sometimes indirectly is often not informed by its impact on the child and the family concerned; nor is it informed by children's rights principles. The procedures, and in some cases those applying them, are not aware of or sensitive to the needs or rights of children or their families or the relationship between timely decision-making and good administration. Other considerations appear to dominate over ensuring that the rights and interests of individual children are met. In this respect, the individual children can be largely invisible in the decision-making process. There are examples of an excessively bureaucratic approach to public decision-making, and often a significant distance between the administrative decision-makers and those affected by their decisions. In regard to education, most of the people who come to us have never met the person who makes the decision in their case. I think it is important to draw a distinction between those providing front line services and those making administrative decisions far removed from the reality of children's and families' lives.

There appear to be few checks and balances in administrative decision-making processes, and few mechanisms for challenging that decision. If a parent has a concern, the opportunities and mechanisms for redress are not as consistent as they should be. Repeated requests for information, flexibility or review appeared to fall on deaf ears. This is indicative of excessive bureaucratisation of public and civil administration, particularly the latter.

I specifically wish to raise with the committee, given its members' role as legislators, my concerns about the Education Act and the Teaching Council. As I outlined, education accounted for the highest proportion of complaints received by my office in 2011. It may, to some extent, reflect the fact that statutory arrangements, set down for parents to raise their concerns about the actions of schools, under section 28 of the Education Act 1998, have not yet been commenced. It means that many parents seek help from my office for matters that they should be able to resolve locally. They do not require the intervention of the Ombudsman's office and should be dealt with locally.

The second legislative issue that is of import for the group is the lack of implementation of Part V of the Teaching Council Act 2001 which regulates the conduct of teachers. My office regularly received complaints from parents on the professional conduct but it is not our role to investigate an individual or comment on the professional conduct or misconduct or child protection issues. I ask the committee to legislate for these deficits.

Many of the parents who come to my office with complaints do so because they have nowhere else to go. In 2008 and 2010 I raised the issue, and I continue to do so, with the Secretary General at the Department of Education and Skills. I want to emphasise to the committee the importance of these issues. My office is not a local redress mechanism but a last resort and its resources should be used appropriately.

I thank the committee for its time and I hope this brief outline of our work will prove useful. My colleagues and I will be delighted to answer questions. If members do not have time today to pose questions they are welcome to contact any member of my office and have a further discussion with them. I now hand over to the Chairman to open the discussion.

I thank Ms Logan for her presentation and it will prove useful. I will call two members at a time to ask questions. I now call Deputies Smith and Crowe.

Like the Chairman I welcome the ombudsman to the committee and compliment the office on the important work it has carried out since 2003.

The ombudsman referred to consultations with children. Do schools welcome visits and what other fora are used for such consultation? What is the breakdown of her office's work between investigations initiated by it and investigations that follow receipt of a complaint? She mentioned that 35% of complaints on education relate to special needs. What is the rough breakdown of the other complaints that related to education?

The ombudsman stated: "Repeated requests for information, flexibility or review appeared to fall on deaf ears. This is indicative of excessive bureaucratisation....". We come across that in our constituency work and it clearly demonstrates the huge frustration felt by members of the public who ring our public offices and the inadequacy of the response. Who are the main offenders or the least responsive? Is it Departments or statutory agencies?

Go raibh maith agat, maidin mhaith agus fáilte. I have a couple of questions on the submission. The ombudsman said that she cannot deal with individual cases but referred to bullying in schools. The Department says that school authorities are not required to report instances or allegations of bullying to it and the Minister said that he has no plans to introduce additional legislation. Increasingly, many parents have come forward about the difficulties they have had with a school principal or teacher dealing with bullying and that school principals are also on the school board. There does not seem to be any consistency in the way schools approach bullying. Recently I met the National Anti-Bullying Coalition and it said that a safe school programme to deal with bullying has operated in other countries. Clearly, it is an area that needs legislative change. Does the ombudsman share my view? Is it one of the issues that families increasingly come forward about and are frustrated by? The parents say that, short of legal action, it is difficult to resolve bullying issues.

The ombudsman said that the Department of Justice and Equality seems to respond differently from the Department of Education and Skills because the latter does not refer legislation to her. Does that cause difficulties for her office? What is the problem? There seems to be a similar problem with the new guidelines for the social personal and health education programme, SPHE, and many of the drugs task forces have said that the Department has not contacted them on it. Is the Department bad at consulting other organisations? Is it arrogant? Does it think it knows better? Do departmental structures need to be changed to allow it to deal with organisations in a better manner?

The ombudsman said there was a 10% increase in complaints on education, some of which relate to the Department, last year. Do the complaints relate to changes that have taken place? Who is complaining? A number of changes have taken place. Traveller education and supports and the SNA scheme have been changed. The Ombudsman mentioned that a person had to interact with 21 individuals across multiple agencies. Are most of the complaints about special needs? Parents of special needs children have to go through a lot to get the assistance they need. What can this committee do? We do not have powers but we can make recommendations to the Minister. This is why I am trying to tease out more information on the areas mentioned in her report.

Ms Emily Logan

Deputy Smith asked about consultations and whether schools welcome the work of my office. We have a positive relationship with schools based mostly on human rights education. Twice per week schools from all over country visit my office. In 2007 we did a piece of work that was a simple exercise in democratisation and educating children about the value of their opinion. It also prepared them for leaving school and how to understand democracy and voting. As many as 550 schools took part in the project and 75,000 children voted on what they wanted my office to work on. It is not surprising that the most important issues to them were family, children in care, play, education and health. We have a positive engagement with schools and teachers overseeing transition year projects, SPHE, civil, social and political education, CSPE, and new projects with children at school.

I will ask my colleague, Mr. Walsh, to deal with the Deputy's question on investigations and to list our top three or five issues on education.

Mr. Páraic Walsh

Regarding the types of complaints that we receive and the broad sphere that is education, bullying to which Deputy Crowe referred, is in the top three. I am sure that the ombudsman will have said this already but the actions of teachers or principals in a school and the issue of school transport make up the majority of the complaints made to us.

I will give a rough breakdown between complaints received on the action of a school or the Department of Education and Skills. For every two complaints on a school, we might get one on the Department. That is too simplistic a way to look at the complaints. Often, people who complain about the action of a school or something that has happened, such as how it handled a bullying complaint, would have also gone to the Department. That is when they meet the issues the Ombudsman for Children has highlighted concerning the lack of a redress mechanism.

Ms Emily Logan

I was asked which body is the main offender with regard to responses and whether it is a Department or a statutory agency. When we were first established, the media give quite a lot of space to the HSE. Our experience, however, is that the HSE is the body most open to hearing our views and engaging with our office. That is largely because it is working with people directly. It meets children and families directly. If I were asked where we are encountering most difficulty, I would say it was with the Department of Education and Skills. This is the case on two fronts. One concerns our insisting that it consider the interests of children when it makes a decision and the second concerns circumstances when I, as ombudsman for children, suggest it meet a child or family. I acknowledge the Department makes decisions affecting thousands of children and I am not suggesting it meet every single child. In respect of the case we published today, however, I believe the Department would have made a much better and more informed decision had it met the child in question and its mother. Perhaps in regard to cases that are contested or cases where it is not clear what is happening, people who are at a significant distance from the child and family are those who are least informed about the decisions they make. In answer to the question, I highlight the Department of Education and Skills.

Deputy Kehoe asked about individual cases. With regard to bullying, when a parent makes a complaint to us that his or her child has been bullied at school, our job is not to investigate the activity of the alleged bully, the teacher, principal or whoever is named. I want to make it clear to members that our role is not to undermine any individual. Our job in bullying cases is to consider the board of management, which is accountable for how the case is dealt with. An investigation would determine how the board of management responded to a parent who expressed concern about a child who has been bullied.

Mr. Walsh stated bullying is one of the top three complaints. It is a very difficult and tough phenomenon to deal with. I believe we do not pay enough attention to it because of the kinds of sensitivities involved. I am sure it is very difficult for a teacher or principal to deal with an allegation of bullying involving children where two separate families are involved.

Bullying is much more difficult to deal with in a small school in a rural community. Sometimes a conflict starts in the school but sometimes it starts in the community and enters the school. I would not underestimate how difficult it is for teachers, principals and boards of management to deal with that.

What the members say confirms our experience that the approach is inconsistent. It very much depends on the willingness and ability of the lead authority in the school, be it the principal or chairman of the board of management. I refer to the capacity of boards of management. The IPPN in its submissions to the Oireachtas has referred to boards of management and their capacity. This is not the first time the members will have heard about this. It is a question of the lack of capacity of boards of management to deal with issues of conflict. Sometimes dealing with a matter might involve simple informal engagement, talking to both parents or getting people together in a room. The natural and human response is to ignore the matter and hope it will go away. It may be hoped that if the child is in fifth year, he or she will go somewhere else in sixth year, such that the problem will go away. This further contributes to the problem, resulting in spiralling conflict that becomes very personal between the parent and individual concerned. It makes the matter much harder to deal with.

We should be building the capacity of boards of management to deal with issues of conflict so they can be dealt with locally, rather than allowing them to escalate. When there are very serious issues, it is, of course, appropriate for any parent to come to us. We always engage in a preliminary examination to determine whether it is appropriate for us to step in. Most complaints we receive are received too early. They come because schools and boards of management feel out of their depth in dealing with the problem. It is not their fault in that there has not been investment in their training and support. It is a question of determining whether there is someone to ring to ask whether he or she has dealt with the matter. I empathise with schools in dealing with matters as sensitive as bullying. As ombudsman, I believe we should be doing more about this. Whether it requires legislation, I am not sure. It would certainly be useful to provide guidance or a standard so schools will deal with the matter consistently.

While I assume schools monitor complaints, the Department does not seem to have a clue about the amount of bullying; yet bullying is a growing phenomenon. The lead Department, which is supposed to be in charge, has no data on the subject. There is a gap in this regard. Based on the recommendation of the ombudsman and perhaps ourselves, this area needs to be addressed.

Ms Emily Logan

I repeat my appeal to the members to consider section 28 and local procedures. In the absence of a local procedure, where is the parent supposed to go? The result is inaction and a disproportionate response because people do not know how to deal with the matter locally. The Deputy is correct that it is a problem.

With regard to the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Education and Skills, the case we published today, which I encourage members to read if they have time, focuses on an 11 year old boy with a medical condition who did not have a diagnosis of a disability. The policy issue was guided by four circulars from the Department of Education and Skills. The response to my office was another circular. The habitual use of circulars is of concern to me. Why do we keep producing them? This is a question legislators should ask the Department. I have not experienced this with any other public body. The Department of Justice and Equality, since it legislates in criminal law, is a regular customer of ours. It regularly refers draft legislation to us but this is not the case with the Department of Education and Skills. Why is this? Why is the Department of Education and Skills not producing legislation instead of many circulars?

I was asked about children with special needs. Members have raised our investigatory remit in regard to the National Council for Special Education. I spoke to the Minister for Children, Deputy Fitzgerald, on this and gather she is open to the idea of extending our investigatory remit to include the National Council for Special Education, a body that implements policy on special needs. This is a real issue. It permeates many of the complaints we consider. Some 35% of all our complaints relate to families with children with special needs because they need help and support from the State. This is quite natural.

I welcome Ms Logan and her staff. Has the ombudsman experience of schools closing ranks behind a principal or teachers where issues of concern arise? If so, does it happen often? Ms Logan mentioned there is a good relationship between the office of the ombudsman and schools. Where issues arise, what powers does the ombudsman have where there is no co-operation?

Deputy Crowe referred to bullying. Where there is verbal bullying by teachers - I have come across an instance - and by students, I presume the Ombudsman for Children has the power to investigate. Ms Logan referred to the difficulties that arise where there is a student bullying another student. In this case, I presume the ombudsman has the power to examine how a school addresses this. I would imagine the first port of call is the board of management and that the ombudsman determines its reaction to individual cases, after which an investigation might take place. I have come across a case in this regard.

Have teachers been reprimanded or dismissed in particular cases? Are there figures on that? Has Ms Logan had cases where, for example, she has had to advise a parent on behalf of a child to go to the Garda Síochána concerning an incident, rather than to continue with the Office of the Ombudsman for Children?

The most high profile bullying case that garnered much media attention is that of the Irish girl, Phoebe Prince, who went to Boston. She ended up committing suicide as a result of bullying and that ended up in court. Such an issue could be replicated here, so it is a matter of major concern. Does Ms Logan have any comments on the level of seriousness of cases coming before her? Is there anything of that nature that concerns her?

I thank Ms Logan for her contribution which has given us an insight into the difficulties her office has in dealing with officialdom. I particularly welcome the fact that she highlighted Article 28 of the Education Act and Part 5 of the Teaching Council Act. I know exactly what she is talking about because I have had a similar experience with a school. When there is a problem there is nowhere to go and things just shut down. The school body, including the board of management, principal, student, parents and teachers, are isolated and it is very hard because there is no help in some situations. The points Ms Logan made about those two Acts are important. We should raise them with the Minister directly to ensure that they are activated.

We hope to have a referendum on children's rights in the autumn. I am sure Ms Logan would welcome that. We do not have the wording yet but there was much consultation in the last Dáil on the matter, including public hearings, and a report was prepared. Can Ms Logan give us an insight into how this could or should help her current work?

Ms Emily Logan

Deputy Kyne's first question was about schools closing ranks and whether that had been our experience. It has not been our experience that schools close ranks around teachers. We found schools willing to engage with our office. For some of them it might be the first interaction they have had with our office, so they are quite open to talking to us and understanding our role.

As regards powers, both myself and the Ombudsman, Ms Emily O'Reilly, are the only two ombudsman officers who have direct parliamentary accountability, which I think is important. I also have powers in the context of a lack of co-operation of the powers of "compellability of document, witness and things", which is how it is described in the legislation. Any witness who comes before me has immunity as one would have in the High Court. There are, therefore, very significant powers if people are not co-operating.

It is unusual for people not to co-operate but we have a section 14 whereby we can give formal notice to compel any public body to co-operate with us.

Deputy Kyne referred to the sad case of Phoebe Prince. For me, in the first place, it is about the culture of a school, as well as the behaviour of children, teachers and other staff in a school. Many principals have written to me with what is described as their code of conduct or code of behaviour. In many schools, particularly secondary ones, one finds that principals engage or consult directly with the students themselves. They bring them in and share that responsibility about determining the culture of the school. It may sound simple but it is important. If a school has an open culture, both with staff and students, it is a healthier culture where parents feel comfortable to say "I'm not happy with the way my child is being treated" or "I'm not happy with the behaviour of another child". That culture is really critical.

As regards whether a teacher has been dismissed through any work we have done, I must reiterate that we do not investigate any individuals. Ms O'Shea's expertise concerns child protection and social work. She deals with all the child protection cases, so she may like to comment on that.

Ms Deirdre O’Shea

Yes, we have our own child protection policy so if we have referrals that relate to matters of child protection concerning schools, and the actions of teachers or principals, we have referred cases to the HSE. In other situations we have also consulted with the HSE to ascertain whether we need to refer any cases to the executive. Sometimes we have directed families to go to the HSE for support for the child or young person because of the experiences they are having, and whether they need psychological support or therapeutic intervention if there is a serious, adverse effect on the child.

One of the difficulties the Ombudsman for Children raised in her speech was the lack of implementation of Part 5 of the Teaching Council Act. When there are concerns about the professional conduct of teachers there is no avenue of redress for that to be raised because that legislation has not yet commenced.

Ms Emily Logan

Senator Clune asked about the constitutional referendum, stating she was sure I would welcome it. I would certainly welcome it in my tenure as Ombudsman for Children. In fact, I have seen four Ministers with responsibility for children, one of whom is present here today, Deputy Brendan Smith. In my first year in office, one of the first press conferences I held was to call for constitutional change. Now, seven years later, I am even more convinced about the principles of having to oblige public bodies statutorily. Much of the debate on the Constitution has centred around the court, but in this situation those who are making decisions that affect thousands of children are Civil Service Departments such as the Departments of Education and Skills, Justice and Equality, and Health. It is my firm belief that if we are going to change the culture concerning decision making for children and families, those people should be obliged by statute to consider the interests of children in the decisions they make. They should also have to consider meeting children and families as appropriate.

Ms Logan is very welcome. I have a number of questions and observations that she might like to comment upon. I absolutely agree with Ms Logan about the amount of circulars sent out by the Department of Education and Skills, which is a lazy option compared to legislation that would have some long-term effects.

I wish to ask about the role of a principal and the number of agencies a principal must deal with when trying to intervene on behalf of a child. From my own experience they include a social worker, education welfare officer, a psychologist if one can be obtained, the CAMH service, a crafts teacher, possibly the juvenile liaison officer, and the home-school liaison teacher. One is talking about eight or nine different agencies to make a simple intervention on behalf of a child. Does Ms Logan think that is overly cumbersome? If there is a crisis in a child's life, it seems to me that the system does not lend itself to taking immediate action on behalf of that child, even if the parent is willing, able and happy for an intervention to take place.

I also wish to ask Ms Logan about the National Education Welfare Board and the Educational Welfare Act. There is a legal requirement to send children to school between the ages of six and 16. However, if a child is enrolled in school aged four or five and misses 100 days, there is nothing the education welfare officer can do about that because the Act does not deal with children of four or five. If one finds oneself in a situation where a child has been neglected, a six year old who misses 20 days will come within the remit of the Act, but a four year old who misses 120 days does not. Does Ms Logan think legislative changes are needed in that regard? I believe they are but I understand that it might lead to opening up a Pandora's box concerning the necessity of sending a child to school before the age of six. It would also raise the issue of how one deals with a situation where a child is not at school at all, versus a child who is not enrolled in school. My belief is that if a child is enrolled in school, he or she should come under the Act.

The Children's Rights Alliance recently issued a report card on the Government's performance and gave the Government a C minus, which is better than previous governments. It means, however, that there is still a lot to work on. I also wish to ask Ms Logan about child poverty and how consistently over the years we do not seem to have had any major improvements in that respect. Thinking about our child poverty statistics is something that would keep most people awake at night.

Amnesty International ran a recent campaign on mental health in education and how we should prioritise that. Does Ms Logan's office have a comment to make on that issue?

The question of special needs assistants arises a lot in Ms Logan's work. I recently spoke at a conference of special needs assistants. They said they were being frozen out of the system in their own schools, even though they are the people who are most intimately engaged with students with special educational needs. When it comes to any sort of engagement with principals, boards of management or class teachers, the SNAs find it increasingly difficult to have any kind of input regarding how best to address the needs of the child. Does Ms Logan have any comment on how their role can be more rooted and fortified in the school structure? I thank the ombudsman for her presentation. I am a great admirer of her work.

The ombudsman's report is very measured and highlights the areas in which her office has come across difficulties.

The ombudsman claims she is under parliamentary accountability. When decisions are made by the Department of Education and Skills or the Department of Social Protection, do they check with her office to see how they impact on children? While 75% of complaints to the ombudsman came from parents, do many teachers and principals complain about, say, the impacts of cuts in education? Principals in disadvantaged areas have come under pressure to divide the resources they have. In one school I visited recently, the principal asked the special educational needs organisers which children did not need lunch every day. Does the ombudsman have any role in addressing the impact of such cuts?

Do Ministers take cognisance of what is said by the ombudsman? Does she see the referendum on children's rights playing a key role in her administration and holding Ministers and the Government to account on children's rights and needs? Is her office being linked to the whole referendum process?

Ms Emily Logan

I agree with Deputy Ó Ríordáin on the point of it being cumbersome for principals to deal with nine agencies in the same way we expect parents to do so. I do not understand why matters have to be as complicated as they are. My experience of principals and teachers is that they are very pragmatic and will want to advance a result quickly for a child or family.

There is a legal lacuna with children attending school under the age of six, the National Education Welfare Board and the Educational Welfare Act. It must be remembered with children who are at risk in families which are marginalised, matters will usually have come to a head a long time before they are six. Should we be looking out for them at the age of four? Yes, there would be some value in that. It will open a Pandora's box. However, from the point of view of the education and health systems which need to work together for families on the margins, six is an age when it can be too late to pick up difficulties.

Child poverty cuts across everything we see in particular in education and health. Ireland has a high rate not just of relative but consistent poverty. If one is going to make any difference to children's and families' lives, this must be tackled.

Most of our work in mental health has been on the side of investigations of children caught between 16 and 18 years who are put in adult psychiatric institutions. We have also had to deal with homophobic and other forms of bullying. Our engagement with children and young people tells us that they are not as focused on the therapeutic point of intervention as they are on community programmes. They want places where they can walk in and talk to people about their problems rather than any therapeutic intervention.

On the question of involving professionals and special needs assistants, it is very difficult for the people working in the system to get edicts from on high about the changes going on. As a nurse for 23 years, I spent ten of them under Margaret Thatcher's regime in the UK when there was significant change to the health system. As a ward sister, I was involved in that change and my opinion was sought. If we are asking public servants to be part of this public sector reform, we need to engage them more seriously as they know what is going on.

Ms Deirdre O’Shea

On the question of whether the Department of Education and Skills consults our office on policy development, we are enabled under our legislation to provide advice to the Government on policy development. It is not a provision, specifically that of referring new policies to our office, that the Department has used. In general, those issues tend to be raised through investigations when the families have raised a concern about the application of or eligibility under a policy. New changes will be introduced to the school transport scheme. A substantial number of parents contacted us raising concerns about that. We engaged with the Department on a broader level to examine that and to raise the issue of child impact assessment when policies are amended.

Mr. Páraic Walsh

When change is announced quickly, which is not often, everyone involved has to react to see what happens then. A good example of a well-flagged change relates to the school transport scheme. There was a long consultative process regarding obtaining value for money from the scheme. All members will be aware any changes to it could also affect thousands of children. It was also discovered that the maps being used in the south east were totally unsuited. From that it was recommended all maps needed to be examined.

Accordingly, there will be fundamental changes to the school transport scheme. Rather than sit back and wait for this to occur with the inevitable complaints to arrive, we asked how any impact of a policy change would be measured. This is an ongoing process which we use for measuring the impacts of policy changes on children.

Ms Emily Logan

Deputy Joan Collins inquired of teachers and principals approaching our office. After parents, comprising 75% of complaints, the next largest group is teachers and social workers. They tend to come for families who may not have the capacity or confidence to come to our office. We are reliant on the role teachers play in their communities. We have seen in the past how teachers have picked up on cases of children who have been neglected, social care and education. They are a key group which advocate for and understand children's lives.

As to how the referendum on children's rights would change our office, it is our job to have ongoing reviews of legislation affecting children's rights. Every time we test a case, we test it against the statutory obligations of the public body to the standard that is legislated for. When the constitutional amendment is introduced to ensure public bodies are obliged to consider the interests of children when making a decision, it will form a more extensive part of our investigative role.

I thank Ms Logan for her presentation. She referred to ongoing research on the subject of children in care. I ask her to elaborate on the timescale for this research. Does it include children up to the age of 18 and is it focusing exclusively on social services or does it also include young people in detention? The children who are detained in facilities like St. Patrick's Institution for young offenders are similarly vulnerable to those in the care of residential social services. I ask whether we could be doing more to help them and if the education they are being given is up to scratch.

Ms Logan expressed concern that the Department of Education and Skills issues instructions by way of circular rather than legislation. Is she worried about the Department's use of its delegated legislative function or do issues arise in respect of the content of circulars or lack of follow up? Is it the case that when a problem arises, the Department simply sends out a letter on the assumption that the problem will be fixed rather than putting in place procedures to monitor issues like bullying and to ensure that its guidelines are implemented on the ground?

Ms Logan noted that she has an ongoing remit to review legislation that is already in place. Does she have a function in terms of making observations on new legislation coming through the Oireachtas? The Education (Amendment) Bill 2012, which deals with issues such as special educational needs and teacher training, is being debated by the Dáil. Perhaps we should be proposing amendments that would address the problems she has identified. This morning's discussion made me think about what we could have done in the Seanad to amend that Bill. It would be useful to get the benefit of her observations on legislation as it is going through the Oireachtas so that we do not miss the opportunity of addressing the problems that may arise.

I am greatly concerned about minority groups, especially Travellers, who are turned away from secondary schools. League tables are being emphasised over approaches that provide a holistic education. Every child has a right to an education.

Ms Logan's presentation was very educational. It opened my eyes to the range of work that she does. I welcome the clarification to the effect that she approaches school boards to find out if they dealt with individual cases appropriately rather than addressing them herself.

I was struck by the following comment:

There appear to be few checks and balances in administrative decision-making processes, and few mechanisms for challenging that decision.[.] Repeated requests for information, flexibility or review appeared to fall on deaf ears.

I ask Ms Logan to provide an example. Is it an issue that arises in education in particular? What is the size of her team and does she have sufficient support to perform the range of tasks requested of her?

Did Ms Logan say the National Council for Special Education is not in her remit?

Ms Emily Logan

It is not in our remit at present.

Is it prevented or simply not listed?

Ms Emily Logan

It is not listed because it was established subsequent to the Ombudsman for Children Act 2002.

We will have to correct that.

Ms Emily Logan

The need for the work we are currently doing in respect of children in care emerged from our investigation of a number of children who died in care. We discovered that the mobility among these children was such that they lacked stability in their lives. Education was an anchor for them, with teachers and principals providing significant support. The work involves children up to the age of 18 and is limited at present to children in residential care. We have not extended our study to children in St. Patrick's but I share Senator Power's concerns about educational aspirations for children in prison. We have done a considerable amount of work with St. Patrick's and I will have my third meeting with the new director general of the Irish Prison Service, Michael Donnellan, this Friday. I feel very positive about his appointment because he has a strong history in working with children and he appreciates the issues arising. I hope to pursue the issue at a local level with Mr. Donnellan and St. Patrick's. Our aspirations for these children and young people are often very low but I would like us to have higher expectations for them given that they will ultimately be returning to our communities.

I do not fully understand the motivation behind the habitual use of circulars by the Department of Education and Skills but our experience across other public bodies indicates that it is quite unique to that Department. We have carried out investigations in cases where people used generic letters. These have not always involved the Department of Education and Skills, however, and some of them have involved local authorities. One case involved a file that had been inactive for four years and a mother being sent generic letters on 11 occasions over that period. Human beings - the child and his or her family - are at the end of that decision-making process and we are trying to make the connection between the person who sits at the desk to make the administrative or financial decision and the child and family on whom it can have a profound impact.

The boy involved in the case we published today has a medical condition which causes his hands to be so weak that he is unable to hold a pen but because he is not labelled with a disability the Department of Education and Skills will not provide him with a laptop. His medical condition impedes his ability to do his homework. It affects his entire family as well as his educational life because his mother needs to spend three hours every evening helping him do homework that should take 30 minutes. I do not fully understand why the Department relies on such a proliferation of circulars and I think we should question the practice.

In regard to legislation, section 7 of the Ombudsman for Children Act provides that I can of my own volition advise any Minister on any matter relating to the rights and welfare of children. This includes drafted legislation. We use that statutory power regularly and the Department of Justice and Equality is our most regular customer. The Department tends to send us the heads of Bills for our observations. Our job is to child proof the legislation by examining it in the context of international human rights standards to determine whether it is as robust as it should be.

Clearly Departments have the option of consulting the Ombudsman on legislation before it comes before the Oireachtas but can we seek her observations as a committee prior to considering legislation?

Ms Emily Logan

Yes and we have been invited by committees to provide observations. We made six submissions on the subject of the Constitution to Oireachtas committees. It is perfectly legitimate for us to comment when we are invited to do so. Members are also welcome to engage in informal discussions with my staff if they so wish. Our job is to ensure draft legislation considers the interests of children.

I share Deputy McFadden's concerns about minority groups. Children from the Traveller community in particular are excluded. My concern about the Department of Education and Skills arises from its use as a gatekeeper to exclude rather than subscribing to the spirit of inclusiveness that informs our legislation in order to enhance access to education.

Senator Quinn asked about inflexibility and cases falling on deaf ears. To give a tangible example, we published a case today of an 11 year old boy with a medical condition whose has physical symptoms but does not have a diagnosis of a disability. His symptoms impact on his ability to do his school work. He cannot hold a pen but according to the assistive technology scheme the Department of Education and Skills uses as a guide to making decisions about such children, he does not fit neatly into its list of people who are eligible for such support. The cost of the support is less than €1,000 and departmental officials have fought quite a battle with us. I am sure we have all spent more than €1,000 in public money arguing about this. At the end of the day, the child is getting progressively worse and this excludes his opportunity for education.

It is perfectly legitimate for the Department to set up schemes and to determine how it uses its resources. There is no question about the legitimacy of that but I question the flexibility involved. There will be always be exceptions. Young children do not come packaged nicely and they do not fit neatly into the Department's categories for eligibility. This child does not fit their eligibility criteria and I am asking for flexibility. The child's mother tried to have the case reviewed and she tried to appeal. When I say it fell on deaf ears, she went to both the National Council for Special Education and the Department, both of which said did they did not hold responsibility for the case at one point. She is going from Billy to Jack and she is the parent of a child whose condition is deteriorating. This boy is now in a wheelchair and is losing power in his arms to the extent that he now needs voice recognition software. My job as ombudsman is not about securing the child a laptop but about trying to get the civil servants who make that decision to think differently about how they make such decisions not just for this child but for other children.

What will happen in this case?

Ms Emily Logan

I have sent the report to the Department, which is contesting it. The officials do not agree with me. They think I want to give laptops to all children with medical conditions. I am clear that is not what I am asking. This is a serious case of a boy whose ability to engage in education is clearly impeded. I have referred the matter to the Minister for Education and Skills for review. I do not, I hope, need the committee's help on this. I should, with the power of my office, be able to resolve it with the Minister but, as a legislator, the crux of the issue is how people who have such extraordinary power over the lives of children and families are determining decisions on their behalf.

I asked whether the Ombudsman has enough support.

Ms Emily Logan

The answer is never but I appreciate that, like in every other public body, everybody has his or her head down and is working hard. We have the same number of staff we had when we started. I have 15 staff. I fought tooth and nail to openly compete for these jobs when I set up the office. Mr. Walsh's background is teaching and, latterly, law while Ms O'Shea was a social worker and she worked as a director in the national child abuse centres in Ireland and in the UK. I have staff with great experience. While we have a small team, it functions well. The office, unfortunately, is at a stage where it needs to grow and, therefore, we have been caught at a bad time but we can make a big contribution even as a small office.

How successful is the office in the cases it takes on? Ms Logan outlined the number of cases and queries her office takes on. However, with regard to the case she highlighted, a report has been forwarded to the Department of Education and Skills and we will find out at a later date if it budges or not. When the office takes on the fight on behalf of somebody, how successful is it?

Ms Emily Logan

It is very successful. In the main, when we write to public bodies to say we are carrying out an investigation, they are always given an opportunity and space to mitigate the action and sometimes the fact that the Ombudsman for Children is bringing the case means they will write back and say they will resolve the issue. Ultimately, we are trying to build the capacity locally in order that parents do not have to pursue long, tortuous paths. It is unusual to have a situation where we are at loggerheads with the Department of Education and Skills but when we are, I will make it public and make sure I do my best to make that known.

Is it fair to say that something positive will result in the majority of cases?

Ms Emily Logan

Yes.

It is clear the committee needs to have a follow up meeting with officials of the Department, as our brief covers them. I suggest inviting them to appear on 2 May. Ms Logan is welcome to attend and view proceedings from the Visitors Gallery, although she cannot participate in the meeting. We have a duty to take this forward, as we need to examine many issues. We will do that on foot of Ms Logan's presentation and, hopefully, we will engage with her more frequently on legislation and so on. We will follow up on this, as there is significant interest among members.

Ms Emily Logan

I thank the Chairman. I am encouraged by the interest. I appreciate members giving us so much time and I thank them for their interest. If anybody wants to approach me separately, he or she is welcome to do that.

To clarify, we will invite the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills to appear on 2 May to discuss the issues raised by the Ombudsman for Children.

Can we also follow up on Senator's Power suggestion to formally engage with the Ombudsman's office regarding legislation that is coming through?

That is agreed. I thank Ms Logan and her officials.

Committee Stage of the Education (Amendment) Bill 2011 is due on 29 March. I have been contacted by a number of groups that would like to make submissions on it. I suggest that we hold a select sub-committee hearing on Tuesday, 20 March 2012 lasting approximately two hours with four or five groups appearing. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The Bill contains a section dealing with complaints about teaching standards.

The Bill will also be forwarded to the Ombudsman for Children.

I was unable to contribute to the debate on the Bill but the Minister said he would prepare guidelines, which is not the ideal way to go. I have nothing against the Minister but the Ombudsman for Children should prepare the guidelines. The section might feed into what the Ombudsman was saying.

The issue is coming up. I have been contacted by three different groups and if the Senator is aware of other groups, we will facilitate them.

I might look it up and e-mail the Chairman because I am not on the select sub-committee.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.10 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 14 March 2012.
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