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Joint Committee on Justice and Equality díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Mar 2018

Garda Oversight and Accountability: Policing Authority

We will resume in public session. The purpose of the first part of today's session is to meet representatives from the Policing Authority to discuss two main issues. First, we will revisit the committee's report, published in December 2016, in respect of Garda oversight and accountability and consider what progress has been made in this area in the meantime, including implementation of the committee's recommendations and, second, we will discuss issues surrounding the recording and classification of Garda homicide figures, including, in particular, the review being conducted by the force into the classification of homicides and reasons for the delay in publishing the findings of that review and furnishing a report to the Policing Authority.

I welcome from the Policing Authority Ms Josephine Feehily, chairperson, and Ms Helen Hall, chief executive. Before we begin, I have to offer the same caution to members and guests alike. Members should be aware that, under the salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Feehily to make her opening statement.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee. I must apologise at the outset as the version of the statement that we sent initially contained some typographical errors. Another version was supplied to the clerk late last night. We will blame the holiday weekend.

The Chairman has invited us today to discuss four topics. I thank him for the opportunity to make these opening remarks. It may be helpful if I touch on each topic briefly. The first topic is issues surrounding ICT, specifically the Garda internal audit service audit report 2017 in respect of ICT payment processes. The position on this item is that the Policing Authority does not receive the Garda internal audit reports on a routine basis. They are mandated, undertaken and overseen by the Garda Síochána audit committee, the members of which we do appoint. We are aware of media reports about this particular audit but it is appropriate to allow the audit committee to do its job first, before we get involved. We will shortly be receiving the annual report of the Garda audit committee. We will be meeting the chair of that committee and will have an opportunity to raise any matters arising from the annual report.

The second item was the report from the chief administrative officer in the Garda Síochána regarding the history of email usage in the Garda Síochána and the mechanisms for protecting security. I understand that the Garda has supplied the committee with a copy of the relevant report and I believe the committee heard evidence on this point recently from Garda senior management, which broadly corresponds with the information supplied to the authority. The main point I want to make this morning is that the roll-out of a new enterprise content management system is under way. It is an important step as it enables the secure, remote access of files from mobile devices and negates the need to send files via email. The sooner that is completed, the better. We would also like to see the key commitments the Garda has made to us being met, namely, to have in place a policy on Internet and email usage.

The third item is progress since the committee's report in respect of Garda oversight and accountability of December 2016 to which the Chairman referred. By way of the update requested, I thought the most useful thing I could do would be to circulate two important documents the authority has prepared and published recently. One is the authority's statutory report on its effectiveness and the adequacy of its functions at the end of two years. Committee members had several questions on this matter when I last appeared before them. The second document is the authority's submission to the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland. Between them, these two reports address and set out the authority's position on many of the key matters discussed in the committee's report on oversight and accountability. For example, we call for the removal of duplication and ambiguity as to who does what in Garda oversight and accountability. We call for steps to be taken to ensure that there is a single pair of eyes on Garda performance, either by including security in the remit of a future policing authority or by having authority members included on a security oversight body. We call for much greater transparency by the Garda, including the extension of the Freedom of Information Acts to a broader range of Garda functions. We call for a future policing authority to have significant oversight competence in respect of the use of resources, both people and money. We also raise concerns about training and formation, culture and integrity.

The fourth item, which the Chairman has also mentioned, is the review of domestic homicides. As I said at the authority's most recent meeting in public in February, in many ways this has been the most frustrating and most troubling piece of work in which the authority has engaged. We began to examine the matter in March of last year. We are still not finished and we are still not fully satisfied. From the outset, the authority has made it clear that its key concern is the risk that wrong classification could have affected the quality of Garda investigations.

We have emphasised time and again the importance of good data for intelligence, public policy, risk assessment and crime prevention. This is not confined to domestic violence risks.

Related to that, the Policing Authority is concerned not to prematurely or unnecessarily alarm families. For that reason, and for reasons of practicality, much of the authority’s detailed work on this matter has been carried out outside of public fora through our committee structure or between officials. Before the most recent meeting in public about the homicide review, we pressed the Garda for assurances that in the 12 cases where it was reclassifying a death upwards into or within the homicide category, family liaison had been put in place and families had been contacted.

The authority’s approach to assessing any significant aspect of Garda performance is to gather data and information from a broad range of sources. We then compare and critically examine the information, and use it to inform ourselves and develop our oversight approach to a particular matter. With the Garda, we persist in private and public until we are satisfied or report to the Minister for Justice and Equality.

Our approach to the homicide data was no different. For example in addition to the Garda, authority officials engaged with the Central Statistics Office, CSO, and the Road Safety Authority, RSA. We had the benefit of Garda Inspectorate reports and a report from a Department of Justice and Equality working group on the crime counting rules. Since late March 2017, we had intelligence in addition to the official Garda documentation. Since then, there have been at least 20 formal authority meetings on the topic in plenary or committee and as many or more engagements at official level.

Several documents received from the Garda were rejected as inadequate, beginning with the correspondence we received for our meeting in public on 27 April 2017 where those watching would have been left in no doubt that the authority was not best pleased. Certainly, the media reports the following day got the drift. The paperwork which we received did not merit the title of report and I believe I made that very clear publicly.

Professional tensions within the Garda organisation regarding this matter were very clearly visible to us at the April 2017 public meeting, after which we had four key concerns. Despite assurances, was there an article 2 compliant investigation in each case? Were there arrangements in place to speak to families? Had the PULSE records been updated with sufficient information to mitigate risks to potential victims? Had the Garda analysis service been fully involved and signed off on the work?

I wish to address the concerns regarding the role of the Policing Authority and the witnesses, Ms Galligan and Ms West, from the analysis service. I am taking it, based on the committee’s discussion in public session and related comments, that Ms West and Ms Galligan have given their permission for certain matters relating to their contact with the authority to be discussed with the committee. I believe the chief executive raised this matter yesterday with the clerk to the committee.

At the outset, I would like to say that their evidence about how they were treated in their workplace sounded deplorable and is very concerning. It speaks to issues of culture and speaking out, matters which the authority raises continually. Differing perspectives and professional tensions are healthy and are to be expected, and ought to be welcomed. Although it is an employment matter, their experiences seem in this instance to have made the whole review more contentious than it needed to be.

Returning to the homicide review, the position is that the authority has many sources of intelligence and information regarding the review - perhaps more than Ms West and Ms Galligan realised - and has done a huge amount of work. The concerns which they brought to the authority’s attention were already well known to us before their contact. At a point where the analysts seemed to be having difficulty getting access to certain information, authority members and staff were being offered opportunities to review investigation files, which we declined, and be briefed in detail on cases.

In fact, having reviewed their evidence to the committee, I can honestly say that there was very little of substance in it about the review which we did not know or have grounds to believe since late March or early April of last year. Far from being misled, the authority rejected the document submitted by the Garda Síochána to our 27 April 2017 meeting in very strong terms.

In addition to expressing serious disappointment at the late arrival of correspondence at 8.30 p.m. the night before, we wrote to the Commissioner to express significant concerns about its tone, content and accuracy. This was also covered by the media subsequently.

The analysts' professional concerns were widely known, and the fact they were in contact with the authority could not have been considered by the authority to be confidential. For example, the analysts indicated it was a member of senior Garda management who provided the personal contact details of the authority staff member who was first telephoned in April 2017. In the interests of transparency, it was Garda management which gave us a copy of the letter of 11 May, addressed to several people in An Garda Síochána. This letter set out the concerns it had and its disquiet about them. The analysts were advised by authority staff that we had the letter dated 11 May. They were given an assurance that the authority was live to all of their concerns and that those concerns would be followed up. They were followed up. That letter further underlined the professional tensions around this whole matter which were already very visible to the authority.

The names and the facts and details which caused the analysts' disquiet were a matter of record and in no way confidential. However, the context of their direct communication with the authority subsequently was recognised as sometimes sensitive, and it was treated as confidential. The analysts specifically declined to allow later correspondence to be shared with Garda management, and that was fully honoured.

In terms of where are we now, the committee is aware that the Policing Authority received a report dated 21 September. This report differed so much from the April correspondence that initially we did not accept it either. Following robust engagement over the period from October to January, we have very recently reached a position where we accept that a police investigation did take place in each of the 41 cases which are the subject of this review. It is important that I say this for the information of the community. However, we have not yet been reassured about the quality of those investigations. At an authority committee meeting on 3 November 2017, we pressed for and secured agreement from the Garda for a peer review of the investigations in a number of cases. The Garda gave evidence to the committee recently about its approach to this work.

On the question of classification, An Garda Síochána has re-classified 12 of the 41 cases upwards, either into homicide or between classifications within the homicide group. We understand now how those positions were reached. From our work, we would say that some change was made to the classification of a further 16 cases, meaning that only 13 are unchanged. Authority staff have personally confirmed that the PULSE system has been appropriately updated in these cases, which is really important from the point of view of risks to any potential victims. The Garda have given us assurances that in those 12 re-classified cases, the families had been contacted before we discussed the matter in public. That was very important to us.

Another concern related to the role of the analysis service. We have been assured, as has this committee at its recent hearings, that the analysis service signed off on the report given to the authority in September and that it will be fully involved in the next phase. The authority intends to meet the working group charged with the next phase, which I understand includes Ms Galligan and Ms West, to ensure that it fully understands our concerns. It is important to us that this working group is managed in a way which allows all voices to be respectfully heard and considered. It is also important to us that it proceeds with some pace and reaches conclusions which we can interrogate. Furthermore, we will require interim reports. In the meantime, the homicide review remains a standing item on our agenda, and given the timelines outlined for the next phase it will clearly be there for some time to come.

The authority takes its statutory responsibility to oversee Garda performance very seriously. Our work is broad-ranging and complex. I hope I have provided a flavour of the approach we have adopted. It uses external performance indicators where they exist, and intelligence or information from a broad range of other sources in addition to that we receive from the Garda. Crime classification, PULSE, data quality and performance management are by now enduring themes for us and the 2018 policing plan contains some important actions in this regard.

At all times the authority is mindful that it must strike a careful balance between challenging An Garda Síochána and undermining it, and between transparency and concern for victims and families.

I thank Ms Feehily. On members' indications, as some members were earlier than they might ordinarily be, I wish to make clear that I am taking members as they have indicated here since we first convened this morning.

I thank the witnesses for their appearance before the committee. There are many questions and while my colleagues will inquire about other areas, I wish to focus on two areas in regard to Ms Feehily's opening statement.

In her comments on the Garda report that was presented to her in April, her tone and the reportage of that meeting clearly indicated that the Policing Authority was unhappy with the report. Can Ms Feehily enlarge on that and does she think it was sloppy? Does she think there was a deliberate attempt by senior management in An Garda Síochána to present a report to the Policing Authority which would mislead it? Does she believe that items were specifically excluded from that report because Garda management did not want them included, either because they felt they would not reflect well on them or for some other reason of which we are not aware? Did a process take place in the preparation of that report which was not accidental and was not caused by a bad management decision here or there but by a deliberate decision by the management of An Garda Síochána to mislead the Policing Authority?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have asked myself that question on an ongoing basis. I do not think so. At the time, the Policing Authority was 15 months old. The relationship between the authority and the Garda has been a maturing one in the past couple of years. There was a certain lack of understanding that when the authority said it wanted something, it actually meant it. In fact, a senior person recently said to me that they are now realising that when we ask for something, we do not go away. We were asking for material. For perhaps 95 years, members of An Garda Síochána did not have the experience of being obliged to publically explain themselves in regard to minute details of management. I apologise for meandering.

I think that the professional tensions had not been resolved. The professional tensions that we saw were not just those between gardaí and the analyst service. That is an important point to make. We also saw professional tensions within the Garda service itself. As those tensions were not resolved, they gave us a submission that was certainly inadequate. It was about a half a dozen pages long and it came too late, at 8.30 p.m. the night before a public meeting. I cannot put myself in the minds of those concerned and know their intention but I would say that it was more that things were not resolved than it was a deliberate attempt to mislead.

In light of evidence given to us recently and other things that have transpired, does Ms Feehily definitely still hold that view? Does she not think, because of some things that have transpired since that meeting took place and some things of which we are now aware, that it might even be naive to believe that there was not a deliberate attempt to mislead?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I would agree that had we accepted it, we might not have moved on. I think that is fair. However, that would be to underestimate the capacity of the authority and its members to analyse material and to see through the presentation of material. Perhaps if we had accepted it, it would have gone away. I do not know. We did not accept it and at our most recent public meeting, we received an on-the-record acknowledgement from the acting Garda Commissioner that the material was inaccurate. That is helpful.

They had a second stab at producing a report in September but that, too, was completely unsatisfactory and by that stage information was emerging, as Ms Feehily was aware from the meeting in April, that what was going on was completely unsatisfactory. How would Ms Feehily classify the way that report was presented to her? They have had four months to do it. Does she believe it was an honest attempt to produce a report or does she believe there was a residual attempt to keep her in the dark?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We now accept that it was an honest attempt to give us a report. We had asked for a report with a start and an end, with a methodology and an outcome. It had the appearance of a report but when we got it, because of our experiences in April and the work we had been doing between April and September, we did not take it at face value. We did a compare-and-contrast exercise between the two sets of documentation and set it all out on a big spreadsheet, before sending it back to them with a thousand questions. We had many committee meetings and official engagements, on which Ms Hall can elaborate, in which we questioned every line of it before, in February this year, we were prepared to accept that we had got the information we wanted.

It is amazing to members of the public and of this committee that it can take from April to February of the following year for An Garda Síochána to prepare a report which the Policing Authority found acceptable. Although I accept what Ms Feehily says on the subject, to many people it seems - at least initially in the April presentation - some deliberately misleading information was supplied.

I have questions on the manner in which the Policing Authority worked on this report. Does it have a view on how it should engage with people within An Garda Síochána who decide to make contact, be they serving members of the force or civilian staff?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I will turn it the other way around. We have a policy in place on how we engage as an oversight body with the characteristics of a regulator. We have to engage in a structured way, for good order, with the body we are overseeing because we have to be able to hold it to account for the material that comes into us and for the quality of that engagement. Formal liaison structures are in place and we observe the principle of transparency. Visits made by members and meetings at which we ask for documents are all funnelled through a liaison officer so that there is full line of sight on that engagement within the Garda. We learned at an early stage that we cannot hold the Commissioner or the senior team to account for material that does not come formally to us as such material does not have any status. We have made it clear to the Commissioner that people who attend the authority have to have the power to commit the organisation and the people we meet have to speak for An Garda Síochána, rather than themselves. We are an overseer and not a complaints body, and that is a really important distinction. We get a lot of contacts from individual gardaí, serving and retired, and the vast majority of what they want to tell us is appropriate to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC. The statutory plan is to refer them to GSOC and if other people want to talk to us about something that is not a GSOC matter, they have to come as part of a Garda delegation.

That is an incredible statement.

Does Ms Feehily think the way she treated the two witnesses who appeared before this committee was appropriate?

I ask Ms Feehily that specifically allowing for her initial or non-contact with them and the fact that subsequent to that there was contact with them. Even allowing for what Ms Feehily said was a policy, she seems to have adjusted that half way through because she seems to have engaged with them by indicating she accepted their letters and kept them confidential at a later stage, etc. However, from their evidence to us, Ms Feehily ignored their initial contacts. There was no response. Does Ms Feehily consider that was an appropriate way to act as a policing authority, having been contacted by people who were trying to supply very relevant and pertinent information? In her statement, she said she felt she had the knowledge and a range of sources outside them, of which they would be unaware. Does that excuse the way in which she engaged with those two people, or is it that she had a blanket policy that she would not engage with people coming to her?

Ms Josephine Feehily

First, I do not agree with the characterisation that they were ignored. The first contact from Ms West resulted in a telephone call back to her - that was a request to attend a meeting that had been arranged for later that week. The response which was given to her was that it was a matter for the Garda as to who attended the meeting. We had no objection to them attending the meeting, but it was a matter for the Garda as to who would come. It was a meeting that was scheduled with the analysis service. That was the first contact. It was not ignored. They phoned, they asked a question and they got a telephone call back saying that this is the position. It was an entirely unremarkable, uncontentious unengagement. It was simply a courtesy.

The second contact resulted in a call back to them, again as a courtesy, which pointed out to them that we had their letter to the senior Garda team and that all the items on that agenda were on our agenda. We were live to all their concerns and that we would be following up on them. They were not ignored. Each time they contacted us by telephone, they received a telephone call back and they were given assurances that their concerns were on our agenda and we were live to them. In many ways, I would say the most useful service the authority could do for Ms Galligan and Ms West was to listen to their concerns from their official paperwork and use that paperwork to continue to persist and follow through in our questioning with the Garda.

The impression I gained from their evidence to us at our committee meeting was that felt they had pretty much hit a stone wall in trying to communicate with the Policing Authority and have their views heard. Does Ms Feehily believe that is misleading?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not want to say that. I read their evidence carefully over the weekend. I think that at no point did they say that, rather I think what they said was that a meeting simply did not occur. They were careful in how they represented the engagement with us. All I am saying is that from our point of view we believe that in the first two instances in response to their telephone contact they received responses, assurances and thanks. Their subsequent correspondence was of an entirely different nature, entirely confidential, and was treated as such. They were not prepared to allow us to use their subsequent correspondence which left us with a very significant dilemma and so we respected their confidence and thanked them again.

For the purpose of clarity, Ms Feehily is quite happy that the engagement by the Policing Authority with them was at all times professional, that it was reasonable and correct and she could 100% stand over the way the Policing Authority dealt with this as having been the correct way to deal with it.

Ms Josephine Feehily

What I am saying is that at the time each of the incidents was happening, it was certainly professional and appropriate. I certainly did not have any sense until their evidence recently that they had a different perception of those engagements.

It seems quite obvious that they do have a different perception of the engagement.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

I am just trying to figure out what occurred. I am not trying to trip Ms Feehily up.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I know.

She believes the authority's engagement was at all times correct and professional but they obviously have a very different perspective on that. Is there an internal process that the Policing Authority should be examining in regard to how it deals with people who contact it in these kinds of circumstances? Ms Feehily seems to say she did nothing wrong and that the authority does not need to change anything. Does she actually believe that if in the future she receives a communication from either gardaí or civilian members of An Garda Síochána, a more robust effort should be made to determine whether it is a useful communication?

Ms Josephine Feehily

One can always learn. I would never say we would not consider and revise our procedures. I must return, however, to my earlier remark. As an oversight body, we are in daily contact with the Garda at official and authority levels and by telephone, letter, etc. For us, the Garda organisation is the body we oversee. It is not a matter of making a distinction between civilian and uniformed members; we oversee the performance of the organisation. As an oversight body and a regulator, we could be at severe risk of becoming conflicted, and that is why we have these procedures. Within the constraint concerning how we avoid becoming conflicted, becoming involved in an employment matter that is not our business or becoming involved with an issue that has internal dynamics for which we are not responsible or of which we could never be fully aware, we have to be extraordinarily careful not to become conflicted. That is the reason we have procedures in place that mean all our engagements are on the record. They take place through the liaison office and they are transparent. The Commissioner and the Commissioner's senior team have a line of sight on our engagement. Then we can say to the Commissioner this is the information we received.

As a regulator and overseer, one must guard oneself absolutely against becoming involved in factions that might cause one to become conflicted. Within that principle, we will absolutely revisit and review in light of this experience what we might have done differently but we would always have that constraint because we regulate the entire organisation. It could just as easily be that we would have a performance issue with one side this week and another side next week. Therefore, we have to be extraordinarily careful and take the official front door.

In light of that answer, does Ms Feehily believe it was inappropriate for the authority to be contacted?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have no problem with people contacting us, none at all. We advise them where we can. The vast majority of people in the Garda, and sometimes recently retired members, raise issues in the statutory frame that are actually matters for GSOC, particularly in respect of the enlarged GSOC responsibilities. We make sure they know that and we help them. We try to explain to them the limits of our functions. I have no problem with the contact but we have to be careful how we handle the contact and not leave ourselves exposed as a regulator.

Can I move on to one final area, on which I would like to ask Ms Feehily for an overview? I echo Ms Feehily's sentiments on getting this done as quickly as possible and on circulating the information as quickly as possible because there are victims, families and people with genuine concerns. In the section of her opening remarks that dealt with how the investigation is proceeding, she noted that there were a number of reclassifications and a number of instances in the 12 cases. Does she believe overall that there has been some type of enlargement and that the reporting of the distortion in the figures has almost become out of proportion by comparison with the reality? Might this have come about because of the internal arguments within An Garda Síochána that have arisen because of the reports? Would it be accurate to take it from the way Ms Feehily phrased her opening remarks that the argument on classification is very technical in many instances and, importantly, that the authority was happy at all times that an actual investigation took place?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Certainly, the discussion around classification is very technical. It takes place within a set of rules called the crime accounting rules, which are even more technical and in some cases were at the heart of the issues. Professional disagreement about the balance of probability can go on and on. In many cases, the classification debate is technical. It would be unfortunate if that unnecessarily worried people who are unaffected. That is one reason we handle a lot of this in private.

We will be uneasy, however, until we are assured about the quality of the investigation. It took us until February to be prepared to say we are now satisfied that there was an investigation. What worries us is whether, if the classification was flawed at the beginning, the Garda will do the right things to make sure an investigation proceeds in a manner that is compliant with the European Convention on Human Rights in respect of securing crime scenes and following lines of inquiry. That has been our question since last April, and we are not there yet regarding quality. We are at the point, albeit quite a bit later, where we now have evidence of significant investigative activity in all of the cases. That is reassuring.

With a view to having a more generic or complete overview, is there any other area in respect of this type of review or otherwise where the Policing Authority has experienced this type of difficulty?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We get everything very late. At our most recent public meeting, we were visibly annoyed over having received material at 6.30 p.m. the evening before in regard to a review of the policing of the Jobstown protest. Whether those concerned like it or not, it means they will have to ensure a second outing on the matter because we are now going to consider the material in April. We receive significant material very late all the time.

We also have major concerns over data quality. Again, that sounds technical but it is not. Homicide data comprise a really good example. Issues have arisen regarding breath-test and homicide data. There is a casual attitude to data and recording data on PULSE. The committee will probably be discussing with the chief inspector from the Garda Inspectorate his recent report on child sexual abuse. One will find data-quality issues at play in that regard. We have had issues over what was or was not on PULSE in the Jobstown review we got.

We have decided this year that no matter what policing topic we are discussing, we will examine it through the lenses of data quality, governance, supervision and ethics because the issue is just pervasive.

It was really disappointing to hear Ms Feehily having to say that, after the whole process associated with the homicide review, involving the three reports and an 18-month period, the Policing Authority is still receiving the same types of treatment and reporting from what is at this point nearly the third reincarnation of Garda management, that it is still being handed material at 6 p.m. the evening before a public meeting, and that it is still unhappy with the data. It is absolutely disappointing and unacceptable to hear that the attitude still has not changed, if what Ms Feehily is outlining is the process.

Ms Josephine Feehily

We share the Deputy's disappointment over the continuing late receipt of material. This frustration runs right through the authority.

With regard to the broader issue on data quality, there is a large cultural dimension. We spoke about this when I was here before. Trained investigators — police officers — tend to be more focused on investigating crime and perhaps regard the capturing of the detail of information as a secondary piece. I have seen that in other professions; it is not confined to policing. Therefore, it is understandable but not good enough. I am particularly worried that the data produced are subsequently relied on for public policy and crime-prevention purposes.

That one will be cultural and will take time. I do not think that could have changed in the timeframe to which the Deputy referred.

I apologise but I must leave this meeting early. I thank Ms Feehily.

I thank Ms Feehily for coming in. I must also apologise as I must leave to go to the Chamber soon.

I wish first to deal with the Policing Authority's oversight of ICT within An Garda Síochána. In her opening statement, Ms Feehily stated that she does not receive Garda audit service reports on a routine basis but that she is aware of media reports on this particular audit. This audit concerned ICT payments and processes in An Garda Síochána. I raised this during Leaders' Questions in January. I will not go over the whole thing again but to give an idea of the figures involved, ICT costs in An Garda Síochána for 2016 were €49.9 million, of which €26.6 million went to Accenture, based on a contract dated August 2009 which the audit found breached public procurement guidelines.

I have been looking at the Policing Authority's most recent quarterly report to the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, in December 2017 on progress by An Garda Síochána in implementing the recommendations of the Garda Inspectorate report, particularly on ICT which has a full chapter. On external ICT contractors, the Policing Authority's report states that "It is clear that the financial burden of supporting external contractors is high" and that "contractors have a strong financial incentive to remain".

These statements by the authority seem to indicate that it is aware that there is a high price connected with external contractors. Did the authority ask for the details of the expenditure associated with external IT contractors? The phrase "financial burden" in particular seems to indicate that the authority is aware that there is a high spend in the area of external contractors. The authority states that it is aware of media reports about the audit. I am asking if how ICT functions in An Garda Síochána is news to the Policing Authority. The authority seems at least to be aware of a high spend on contractors. Was the Policing Authority aware of any of the public procurement breaches by An Garda Síochána? The 2016 appropriation accounts list 94 breaches totalling €27.8 million and security ICT is listed as one of the main areas. That information is available to everyone online. Will Ms Feehily answer those questions first?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We were aware of the appropriation account information, and, in fact, we followed that discussion closely. Something the Deputy will have seen in our various reports that I mentioned, including the two-year report and the submission to the commission, is that we have asked for the removal of duplication and for the removal of ambiguity. Our role in relation to the resources of An Garda Síochána is very circumscribed and very narrow. From the outset, we have tried to get ourselves more closely involved with the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform so that we become part of that resourcing discussion. When we cannot do it that way, we come at the issue a different way and we do it from a performance perspective. We also come at it from the point of view of our determination to increase the proportion of civilians in the Garda.

Part of our concern about the spend on ICT would have been that we think some of it could have been done by skilled professionals hired directly by the Garda, probably for less money. That partly is what would have been behind the comment in the quarterly report to the Minister. Also, it is the case that for private sector bodies, the bottom line is repeat business. That is what they do. We were extremely concerned. We have not been able to get good benefits realisation statements from the Garda about what it was actually getting for this spend in detailed form. That is what is behind our concerns. We come at it through whatever areas we have power, which is civilianisation and the implementation of the modernisation plan, and ask what it is getting for the money, rather than our oversight of the money.

Turning to the public procurement breaches, we took the view when the Comptroller and Auditor General audited, which is as high as one can get in auditing terms, and of which the Committee of Public Accounts had oversight, that it had its own oversight machine and we had enough to get on with.

When the chair of the audit committee comes before us in a couple of months' time with its annual report, we will ask how the committee assures itself. There is a great deal of statutory machinery in the form of an audit committee, the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts, and we follow their work with interest.

This is a massive area, with huge money involved. Does Ms Feehily think the Policing Authority should be in a stronger position to oversee what is going on?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

Ms Feehily said that the authority has almost too much to do in order to go into finer detail.

Ms Josephine Feehily

No. I am sorry if I gave that impression. Our competence is narrow, however. If we had solid competence, we would go into it in detail. In the next wave of reform, we have called for the authority to have very specific competence. One thing that frustrates one of my authority colleagues, for example, is that if the Garda wants to hire a clerical officer, it has to get approval from the authority but if it wants to spend €10 million on ICT, it does not. We have a very narrow competence in respect of money. We believe it should be broader and at least equal to the competence we have in connection with the appointment of clerical officers.

We would like to get into what the Deputy is talking about but we do not have the powers to do so. We made this clear in our submission to the Minister. As I said here last year, or at a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts, we have always seen this as a gap in our powers.

Sticking with the subject of the most recent quarterly report, the Garda Inspectorate recommended that the Garda Síochána establish an ICT governance board and this was done in 2016. Mr. Joseph Nugent, the chief administrative officer, is the chair and representatives from the Departments of Justice and Equality and Public Expenditure and Reform also sit on the board. The Policing Authority has attended three meetings of the board in an observer capacity. Who attended on behalf of the authority?

One of the roles of the ICT governance board, according to its terms of reference, is to ensure that decisions on the commencement of projects are informed by defined business cases, consistent with the requirements of the public spending code and circulars relating to ICT expenditure and consistent with agreed resource allocations. In the three meetings attended by the authority, were tendering or procurement issues or payments to external contractors discussed? Given that €26 million which was paid to Accenture in 2016 was deemed to be in breach of public procurement guidelines, it would seem the governance board is not really doing its job. What is the authority's opinion on the work of the governance board?

The minutes of the meeting of the Policing Authority with An Garda Síochána on 26 January 2017 state that the authority executive was to explore a link with the ICT governance board and ensure that the authority has access to all relevant information. Did this ever happen? Has the authority ever requested a full-time place on the board? It is strange that the Departments of Justice and Equality and Public Expenditure and Reform can sit on the board but that the authority can only observe.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I will answer and then I will ask the chief executive to give details of what happens at those meetings. We declined a seat on the governance board because we are an oversight body and we would be entirely conflicted if we were part of an internal governance structure. We have taken the same position in respect of many other invitations we have received from the Garda to get involved in internal governance. We cannot stand above it and challenge if we are part of it. We decided to ask one of our senior team to attend in an observer capacity so that we could learn what goes on at the meetings. The chief executive will elaborate on that.

One of our other enduring concerns about governance in the Garda is that there are too many governance boards. Their discrete roles are not entirely clear and there is a lot of internal conflict over who sits on governance boards.

Ms Helen Hall

Our head of policing performance and strategy, Margaret Tumelty, attends as an observer.

We do have concerns, as the chairperson has said, about what happens at that board. In particular, in much of its project reporting, there is not any clear sense, even for the members who attend, of what is the value for money - I refer to some of the questions the Deputy would have asked. We have a lot of concerns around that and there is a lot more to be done.

Ms Josephine Feehily

That analysis supplied to the authority by the executive feeds into the committee that produces those quarterly reports to which the Deputy referred. The line we see for taking that issue forward is to express our concerns to the Minister through those quarterly reports.

Ms Helen Hall

One of the concerns coming out of that is the production of an ICT strategy because one needs to have a clear vision for what one is going to do and that is not apparent. One of the items in the policing plan is that by the end of quarter one, they will produce a strategy so that the committee or the board has something to focus on.

The strategic transformation office, or STO, as it is more commonly referred to, was set up to help implement the famous modernisation and renewal programme of the former Garda Commissioner. The costs associated with the STO are included in the overall ICT budget but I note from the authority's quarterly report that nobody is willing to take responsibility for its budget. The authority's report states ICT "could give no greater clarity since they have no line of sight or responsibility for this budget despite it appearing within their budget lines". The STO states, according to the report, "their understanding was that this was part of the ICT budget and therefore not the responsibility of the STO". Instead, it seems an external contractor is running the office. Accenture was paid €2.8 million in 2015 to set up the STO and the contract has been renewed every year without a tender. The contract states that Accenture is to support the set-up and running of the strategic transformation office. The authority's quarterly report states there will be a 100% overspend of the STO budget for 2017, €4 million instead of €2.1 million. Surprise, surprise, Accenture is the company that will profit from the budget overspend. Did anyone in the Policing Authority investigate this budget overspend of 100% and did any alarm bells start ringing?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I can only go back to my earlier replies. The alarm bells certainly started ringing. We rang them in that report and we gave it to the Minister. We are not auditors. We are not investigators. Our authority in relation to spending by An Garda Síochána is limited. There is a tiny section in the Act which states we must give the Minister a view once a year as to the adequacy of Garda resources. Not being able to deal with them in terms of the financial Vote, we deal with the issue through our oversight of the modernisation plan and through our insistence that they should be engaging more professional civilians to do their work. In fact, in the past year we approved a number of senior positions for permanent civil servants to staff the strategic transformation office. We come at the issues that bother us using the levers we have of the modernisation plan and reports to the Minister but we have no function in investigating or overseeing the day-to-day spending by the Commissioner. That is just the way it is.

I will allow Deputy Wallace to make one more point. We had a lengthy engagement earlier and I am minded of another set of guests coming in afterwards. I would ask members to contract their questioning and keep it as tight as possible.

While I accept 100% that the authority is an oversight body and not an investigative body, can Ms Feehily understand the public frustration that there is no oversight of what the Garda is doing with its money around ICT? Now that the public is becoming aware of it, there is huge disillusionment with the fact that this has not been overseen.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I can completely understand the Deputy's concerns and we share them. We identify them in our submissions in relation to the changes that are needed.

Is the Minister concerned that all is not well in this area?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Perhaps that might be a question for the Minister.

I believe we have performed the oversight function that we have by bringing the matter forward such that, by quoting from our report, the members were able to interrogate and ventilate it. We have put in the public domain our concerns; we have put in the public domain issues in respect of the lack of progress on the modernisation plan and the lack of an IT strategy. Those are the pieces on which we can comment. We have done what we can to expose it to the committee and to the Minister. Perhaps questions on the Minister's reaction might be better posed to the Minister.

Obviously, no-one in An Garda Síochána is prepared to take responsibility and the powers of the Policing Authority to hold it to account are limited. Does Ms Feehily have a concern as to who does make the calls on what is spent?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

Is it the chief administrative officer? In her opening statement, Ms Feehily said that the authority appoints the members of the Garda Síochána audit committee. In September 2017, it appointed Joe Nugent as a member of the committee. As chief administrative officer, he has overall responsibility for finance in An Garda Síochána, which includes ICT. Joe Nugent is also the chairperson of the ICT governance board, which seems not to impose any governance. Now he has been appointed to the auditing committee. Is there not a conflict of interest there?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

Does it not defeat the purpose of an audit committee if the man whose decisions are being audited is on that committee?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes. There is a conflict of interest. I have discussed that conflict both with the chair of the audit committee and with Mr. Nugent. Unfortunately, the legislation allows us to appoint only Mr. Nugent or Deputy Commissioner Twomey. Both, in my view, are equally conflicted. Deputy Commissioner Twomey is responsible, as the deputy commissioner in charge of policing, for spending all the money. The legislation provides that we must appoint one person, either the deputy commissioner or the chief administrative officer, and up to four others. We can appoint as many others as we like. We do not have a choice.

We had a very interesting discussion about this with the acting Garda Commissioner recently and with the chair of the audit committee. The chair of the audit committee is keen to have a uniformed policing presence on the audit committee to help its members understand the policing issues. We were asked if we could appoint an assistant commissioner but I had to say we cannot. The Act allows us to appoint only one person from An Garda Síochána, and that appointment must be at deputy level. I apologise but we have identified the issue and made it transparent to the committee, the acting Garda Commissioner and the person we appointed. We said it was not an ideal outcome and they all accepted it and therefore are all hopefully taking steps to mitigate the risk. The Act does not allow us to do what we would like to do.

It does beggar belief. In the closing paragraphs of the chapter on ICT in the authority's most recent report, it is stated that the forthright way in which Garda ICT has laid out an unvarnished picture of the current situation in its interactions with the authority is to be welcomed. I am wondering if Ms Feehily stands over that statement. If ICT had given the authority an unvarnished picture, would that not have involved it saying it had been giving contracts out to Accenture without tender, that Accenture staff are the only external IT contractors who do not record their attendance and hours on an electronic clocking system, that the Garda had been paying Accenture in advance and that the lack of expenditure controls may not satisfy the European Commission? That would have been unvarnished. Instead, what the authority got was fiction. It gives a glowing appraisal yet it is supposed to have an oversight function. Does Ms Feehily stand over the statement that its presentation was unvarnished and good?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Were I to ask them, I am sure that my colleagues on that particular committee certainly would stand over that statement in the following sense. The quality of the engagement with the people from the ICT side and the modernisation programme has improved dramatically in the last year or so. It was unvarnished in the sense of admitting what they were not doing, admitting the inadequacy of their technology and admitting to us things that were not complete. The Deputy might recall that in an earlier report, we had to identify the fact that we were effectively being sold a pup and had projects marked as complete that were not even begun. It is against that background that we were commenting on a frankness that has emerged in respect of the technology. It was not a discussion about procurement or budgets. As I have said, we are not in that space because other actors in the system are. It was an unvarnished presentation by them.

There was also an acceptance of something. The Deputy mentioned in his remarks the question of who takes decisions about spending. This is also in our report, if not the latest one then the one before it. The authority believes there has not been a dynamic prioritisation of a proper documented process to say why project X was chosen over project Y. We are getting some traction on that now. It is in that context that we talk about an unvarnished acceptance. The Deputy has the advantage over me as he has the report in front of him. It is an honesty and a robustness in the engagement that we found refreshing. That is the context in which that remark was made.

With regard to the report from the chief administrative officer on the history of email usage in An Garda Síochána and the mechanisms for protecting security, Ms Feehily said in her opening statement that she believed the evidence this committee heard recently from Garda senior management corresponds with the information supplied to the authority. I would be worried about that. I will read a brief section of the transcript of my interactions with Mr. Nugent regarding the issue here. I asked Mr. Nugent about the report compiled on use of the Gmail account by the former Garda Commissioner, and whether he had given that report to the Department of Justice and Equality. He actually denied that he had produced the report. To quote him, he said:

I do not know if I did a specific report. I certainly looked at emails about 12 months ago. Can I remember if it was sent to the Department? I do not know. It is more than 12 months ago since the issue occurred, and I do not remember ... I am saying that I do not believe I did a report. I said that I had a look at emails that were there but I do not recall producing a report... I am fairly sure I did not send a report to the Department of Justice and Equality. My point was that I do not believe I produced an actual report. That was my point.

I am not so sure about his memory or how it works. I also asked whether any of the senior management present received emails from the Garda Commissioner's Gmail account in respect of Garda business and they all said "No". Given that the disclosures tribunal has established through the examination of Nóirín O'Sullivan's iPad that the former Commissioner was sending emails from her Gmail to the then Minister for Justice and Equality, which contained draft speeches to be read out in the Dáil and on RTÉ in respect of the O'Higgins commission, I find the response that no senior management member ever received emails regarding Garda business to be a bit of a joke. Does Ms Feehily believe the committee was told the truth when all the senior Garda members present, including Mr. Nugent, denied ever receiving emails from the former Garda Commissioner's Gmail account on Garda-related business?

Ms Josephine Feehily

First, as regards my opening remarks, it was that part of the testimony I was referencing. We asked similar questions about whether the Gmail accounts were used for Garda business, rather than the point about the report. In fact, it was us who reminded him that he had given us a report, after he gave the committee that evidence. It was the other part of it. We have received the same assurances that the committee received. We have received assurances also that Mr. Nugent personally reviewed a lot of Gmail activity to make sure that there was no Garda business. We were focused on Garda business in the sense of sensitive information, security information, investigations, personal information and so on. In that context, we received similar assurances to those which the committee received.

I would certainly decline to comment on anything related to the Charleton tribunal until Mr. Justice Charleton has finished his work.

As Ms Feehily knows, I have learned under a freedom of information request from Ms Hall that he actually did a report which he forgot he had done, not that there is a whole lot in it apart from some redactions. It did not really deal with the matter it was supposed to deal with. I got another email from Ms Hall which was very interesting, from 2016. It was sent to the authority and was a statement from An Garda Síochána.

The opening line of the statement from Mr. Nugent states that due to restrictions with the Garda email system, such as email size and storage, the Commissioner occasionally used a Gmail account to ensure that Garda business was discharged effectively. This completely flies in the face of what Mr. Nugent told the committee when he appeared before it. He told us first that he did not do a report and then, in his statement on 21 November 2016, he told us that the Commissioner was using her Gmail account.

Ms Josephine Feehily

We dealt with that issue in public session at our November meeting, which was later that month. My recollection of it is that there was a fairly robust engagement with one of our members, Maureen Lynott, on that topic and we got further assurances on the record from them. We did not accept that at the time at face value; we followed it up in public. It is important to make the point that there are technical solutions that law enforcement agencies and other agencies charged with matters that are confidential must deal with all of the time. They have a responsibility to ensure they use those technical solutions such that it is not necessary to use commercial providers. It is in this regard I referenced the enterprise content management in my remarks. It is really important that the Garda remove the need for the use of external providers. Often Garda officers on the ground do not have the most sophisticated technology and consequently, in trying to do their jobs, they may inadvertently use a commercial provider, which is not a good idea. We are keen to ensure that the Garda Síochána rolls out the technology that makes it possible for Garda business to be done in a secure way at all times. The focus is on ensuring they do this right going forward.

Ms Feehily will be aware that during the debate on the establishment of the Policing Authority, Deputy Clare Daly and I were adamant that in terms of what was proposed, the authority would not have the requisite power or the independence necessary to enable it to be a real oversight body and to hold the Garda to account. Does Ms Feehily agree that the Government needs to take another look at the powers of the Policing Authority?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I will take the Deputy's question in two parts. I agree that the powers need to be looked at again and we have written to the Minister to that effect. I do not agree that we do not have an appropriate degree of independence. If it was not for our independence, even within the limited powers and functions we have, the committee would not have much of the material it has today. By way of the various reports that we have published, we have put more material in the public domain and we have operated more transparency. I believe we have been a disruptor in terms of Garda oversight for positive and good outcomes.

As outlined by Ms Feehily, the legislation is poor in that the person in charge of the audit is also the person being audited. This must interfere with the authority's independence.

I think that has been acknowledged. The order of speakers is Deputies Clare Daly, O'Callaghan and Ó Laoghaire, followed by Senator Conway and Deputies Jack Chambers and Kelly. I ask members to be mindful that we have another delegation waiting. We have made a mistake in trying to facilitate two bodies this morning. I apologise to the delegation from the Garda Síochána Inspectorate for the delay. Our engagement with the inspectorate will be a very concise one, when we get to it. I ask members to assist the Chair.

I will do my best. I would like to put a few brief questions to the witnesses on the selection process for the new Garda Commissioner. The Policing Authority told the committee in October last that it expected to have detailed engagement regarding composition of the selection board and the processes to be used by the Public Appointments Service and so on. Given that the closing date is upon us, what has been the level of engagement and correspondence in this regard? Has the collaborative approach anticipated come to fruition?

Ms Helen Hall

Yes, it certainly has.

It was not so much in the past week or so. However, there was a period in December, January and February when we were having several meetings a week. These were conference calls with the Public Appointments Service and I believe the collaboration has been very good.

In the context of its input on the board, will the Policing Authority be represented? Is the authority asking for assurances regarding political interference with the board? I do not mean this in a bad way but given that the Public Appointments Service has three senior departmental people on the board, the questions are in the context of the composition of the board.

Ms Helen Hall

The Public Appointments Service is responsible for determining the selection board but, as we indicated in a statement a week or two ago, the Policing Authority has been asked for nominations and has provided nominations.

Will the Policing Authority seek assurances with regard to political influence?

Ms Helen Hall

I do not understand the question.

I know it is responsible for setting up the interview board but given that the current Public Appointments Service board has representatives from three Departments, it would be regrettable if those three people were, for example, on the interview board.

Ms Helen Hall

First, the Public Appointments Service's reputation is controlled. Second, the Policing Authority will also have representation on the board. I have every confidence that it will be-----

Has the number of people who will serve on the board been agreed?

Ms Helen Hall

That is up to the Public Appointments Service.

Has that not been signed off yet?

Ms Helen Hall

I do not think it would be appropriate to comment on the detail of that. The competition is ongoing and it is up to the Public Appointments Service to determine that.

Okay. Is it intended that the Policing Authority will be making one nomination or will there be a short list?

Ms Helen Hall

Is that a short list of nominations?

Ms Josephine Feehily

To be clear, is the Deputy referring to the nominations for the post of Garda Commissioner or for the interview board?

I apologise. I refer to the nomination for Garda Commissioner at the end of the process.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The law is clear on that; there would be one nomination.

Is it clear? It is not that clear to me that it says there must be only one. Is there no provision at all for a short list?

Ms Helen Hall

I do not think so.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It is important to distinguish between the processes that might be used to get us to the nomination. There will be a competition run by the Public Appointments Service which we expect will have several stages to it. The output from that process will be to provide the details to the Policing Authority of one person. If it is satisfied, the authority will nominate that person for approval by the Government. If the Government is satisfied, it will appoint that person.

There does not appear to be anything in the legislation - that I have read - which would preclude the Policing Authority from seeking more details of short-listed applicants and so on.

Ms Helen Hall

It is very specific and says that the authority nominates "a person". If that nomination is not accepted, the authority then nominates another person.

Does the Policing Authority nominate a person for approval by the Government?

Ms Helen Hall

Yes.

The point I am making relates to the list of people the Policing Authority receives from the Public Appointments Service selection group, on which the Policing Authority is represented. Will this be one person or will it be a list of people from which the Policing Authority will then select one?

Ms Helen Hall

It is a person. The Act states, "The Service shall provide the Authority with particulars of the experience, qualifications ... of a person whom it recommends."

So it is one name.

Ms Helen Hall

It is very specific. It is one.

In the recommendations on the section 620 report the Policing Authority gave to the committee, on the selection process for the Garda Commissioner and the deputy Garda commissioner, the Policing Authority says it is looking for the process to be simpler and for there to be greater flexibility in respect of it forward. Will the witnesses enlighten members as to what they perceive to be the current stumbling blocks in this regard? What areas do the witnesses think of when they say that?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We found that the process the Policing Authority has put in place for the appointment of assistant Garda commissioners to be quite agile, flexible and productive. We are not convinced that it needs three layers - the Government, the Policing Authority and the Public Appointments Service - in such a rigid hierarchy, for want of a better word, to give us the best outcome. The Policing Authority would have been quite capable of running a process for the selection of a person to serve as Garda Commissioner. This might have given us the kind of outcome described by the Deputy whereby we might have had a slate of candidates. Who knows? When we use words like "flexible", it is more that the Policing Authority could itself run the process. That would be consistent with other comparable bodies on these islands. This is not in any way to say that the process will not be run properly and in accordance with the law; it is simply to do with the future, being more agile and more like other authorities.

The Policing Authority also recommends that the legislation be amended to place an obligation on the Garda Commissioner to provide it with information in a timely way. This is already provided for in legislation. Is the authority referring to sanctions or what is it saying? Does this reflect the fact that the Policing Authority has had a difficulty obtaining material from a proactive point of view?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes. It is reflective of that. The word "timely" is not quite as strong as we might like in the existing legislation. We get material but we get it late.

Would the Policing Authority envisage a sanctions procedure in that recommendation? Given that there is already a statutory obligation which is largely ignored - or is not sufficiently attended to - how would the Policing Authority see this being enforced in a timely way?

Ms Josephine Feehily

"Sanctions" is probably not the right word but certainly the capacity to issue strictures. A stricture was a precept, or an old notion, that we sometimes used in tax where we would issue a very strong statement, and if certain things do not happen then there are consequences.

In its opening report, the Policing Authority refers to training, culture and integrity. Is the authority aware of the recent problems that occurred with training and formation at the Garda College in Templemore and media reports about the manner in which some of the new recruits were being dealt with there?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am not sure that I am specifically aware of what it is the Deputy is referring to. We certainly have a lot of concerns about the Garda College in Templemore, but I am not sure-----

No. I refer to recent reports that appeared in the media. If the witnesses are not aware of it, then they are not aware of it. I am just asking.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know if I am aware of it. I am aware of so much to do with the college that I am just not sure if I am aware of this.

It is to do with training of new recruits and people being interned there beyond hours as a collective punishment for the misbehaviour of one individual.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The overall view and the position of the Policing Authority - and the reason we made reference to training and formation - is that in a number of ways there needs to be a lot more light and air let in to the formation of gardaí. We consider that quite a lot of the training interventions could be delivered externally and at other third-level education campuses. We are absolutely and seriously worried about and bothered by the fact that recruits come out of the Garda College without being qualified to drive. This could be outsourced. We also believe that another way of letting in light to the process would be to have a better mix between professional educators and police officers. There is a very high-----

In terms of-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

All of those things would speak to the kinds of concerns the Deputy harbours. If more education of Garda trainees was placed on third level campuses then the concerns of the Deputy will not be happening. If there was a different mix of educators delivering training, so it is not just gardaí, then we would get a different culture.

I take it that the Policing Authority would not approve of the type of activity I outlined earlier.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Absolutely not.

Will Ms Feehily comment on the fact that the decision on that was taken by someone promoted into the job by the Policing Authority, even though there were questions previously about his activity in being answerable?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The deployment of Garda officers is a matter for the Commissioner. We do not promote people into the positions; we appoint to a rank.

As a result of that promotion, the person ended up there.

I shall now turn to some of the other matters that were raised earlier and by the two witnesses who were here last week. When Deputy Brophy asked whether it was the Policing Authority's opinion that it had been specifically misled by An Garda Síochána or if it was just an oversight, Ms Feehily said "I do not think so". A report designed specifically for Ms Feehily's eyes and ears and for the Policing Authority was prepared by the two expert data analysts and presented on 11 April. This report was not directed to the Policing Authority as per protocol. The two analysts subsequently went to a public meeting with the Policing Authority and presented a very different view to that contained in their written proposal. What would we call that if it was not misleading?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I apologise if I did not make it clear. Deputy Brophy asked if we felt misled at the time. What I meant to convey to Deputy Brophy was that at the time we did not believe there was a deliberate attempt to mislead. I acknowledged, however, that I could not put myself in the minds of the people who sent the material.

I felt at the time that the strong professional tensions that were clearly visible to us - and remember we had private meetings as well, not just with the analysis service but also on the policing side - were playing out somewhere else and that they simply were not ready. As it happens, we never received that report. The report that was given to us in April - or the document because I will not call it a report - has been accepted by the Garda Commissioner as inaccurate. The line has been drawn under it and we lost six months. Clearly, looking back, we did not get what we should have received. There is no doubt about that.

At the time Ms Feehily did not believe she was being misled. Does she accept now that she was being misled?

Ms Josephine Feehily

It is very hard to know what their motivation was when one was not in the mind of the people who presented this material. I am trying not to jump to conclusions. Certainly, if we had not done our own work that might have been the outcome.

Can Ms Feehily think of any credible explanation - other than for the purposes of deliberately misleading - why a document prepared under protocol by the senior professional analyst in advance of a meeting and which had a heading to the effect that it was for the Policing Authority was not handed over? When did the authority find out about the report's existence, and that a document had been written for the authority's eyes only and had not been passed over by An Garda Síochána?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I guess we knew from our own sources probably early in April that a document was being prepared. We had a commitment that we would receive the document in advance of the April meeting. The piece of paper we received the night before the meeting did not measure up to what we had been led to expect. We knew that what we received on the night beforehand was inadequate, incomplete and, as we said in our letter to the Garda Commissioner, inaccurate. We did not like its tone. We knew straight away that there was stuff we had not received. I am trying to say that at that moment there was strong evidence available to us of unresolved matters within the Garda. I do not wish to assume it was misleading. They might simply have not been ready.

I am not asking about that report. I am asking about the evidence that was heard in public here. The deputy assistant analyst gave evidence to this committee that she had prepared a professional report for the Policing Authority on 11 April and found out on 12 May that it had not been handed over to the authority. When did the authority find out about the existence of that document?

Ms Josephine Feehily

That precise document?

Ms Josephine Feehily

It was probably on the day they gave evidence. We knew from the middle of April that there was a report-----

That is a different report.

Ms Josephine Feehily

No, it is not. We knew there was a report. We knew a report was being prepared by the analysis service and we were promised we would get it. We knew on 27 April that the thing we received was not it.

When the authority did not get it and subsequently got a telephone call from the person who compiled that report, would it not have been the most logical thing to say, "That is great. We must ask for the person's opinion on this."?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We had the benefit of their letter to the Garda Commissioner outlining their opinion at length. That had been shared with us. They were advised that it had been shared with us and that we had all of their concerns. They said they were contented. The person who took that telephone call has assured me that the conversation finished with thanking her for letting them know.

Does Ms Feehily accept that this is clearly not their viewpoint now?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I accept that is not their view now. I can only report what happened in May last year and they did not come back on that.

Ms Feehily has made the point that the evidence they gave here last week was clearly very powerful. She talks about it speaking to issues of culture and speaking out, which it most certainly does. However, she then appears to downplay it a little and says that it is an employment issue. She said the authority would be conflicted if it got involved with factions. To be honest, I found that shocking. I do not know how one would describe professional expertise in terms of data analysis, on the one hand, and rank structure, on the other, as being two factions. They are different skill sets. I am trying to get my head around how the Policing Authority, which had 20 meetings with the rank structure about the homicide review, felt it was not within its remit to meet the professional staff who offered their services to enlighten the authority on that.

Does Ms Feehily still think that this was just an employment issue? She referred to the most useful thing she could do for the two women. Does she not accept that the issues that were being raised were not for the two individuals? They had absolutely nothing to do with something that would end up going to GSOC. They were raising an issue which is a function of the authority, the performance by An Garda Síochána of its functions in terms of the classification of data relating to homicide. How could that not be something the Policing Authority would not investigate or discuss with them?

Ms Josephine Feehily

If the word "faction" jars with the Deputy, I am happy to withdraw it. In the engagement with Deputy Brophy, I was trying to convey that the Garda organisation is full of different perspectives, including the analysis service and the uniformed service. In this instance there were certainly differing views within the uniformed service. I was trying to convey that a body that oversees an organisation must be very careful not to get involved with one side of an argument. That is what that word was intended to convey.

Our 20 meetings and meetings at official level were not with the uniformed service but with the Garda Síochána. The committee's witnesses are members of the Garda Síochána. They are not sworn members but they are members of the Garda Síochána from our point of view and we oversee the organisation. There were non-sworn members at these meetings. Earlier, I was trying to convey that in order for us to do our job properly, in a statutory sense, we must be able to deal openly with those people whom the Garda Commissioner designates as the representative body for that organisation.

The analysis service was fully represented. Who came to our meetings was a matter for the analysis service and the Garda Commissioner. At no point had we any difficulty. If the Garda Commissioner had included Ms West and Ms Galligan at those meetings, that would have been fine. That was conveyed in the first telephone call to Ms West. When she asked to attend a meeting with the analysis service we said it was a matter for the analysis service and the Garda Commissioner who attends the meetings. We are having a meeting but we are not saying who is coming. We are simply inviting people to a meeting. That was conveyed to them. The only way we can do our job properly is to work transparently and insist that we get people at meetings, so we can go back to the Garda Commissioner and say what the representatives said and did or did not provide.

Is it Ms Feehily's evidence that the head of their unit who was present at those meetings did not articulate sufficiently the problems at the professional end of the analysis being undertaken? One of the powerful points made by Ms West last week was her statement that if she was in a position where she was made aware of people who wanted to tell her something - individuals who were uniquely in possession of the facts of this analysis - she would want to talk to those people and find out what they had to say. That struck a chord with me because I would be like that too. Does Ms Feehily not accept that she should have done that and that the six months would not have been lost? The impression has been given that the authority has been doing this work on the report and the background with the Garda, as of course it has, but it is almost presented as if it is in isolation. A huge amount of work has been done by these analysts within the ranks of the Garda. If the authority and they had worked together when the analysts first contacted the authority, it might have saved the six or seven months it has taken to get to this stage.

Ms Josephine Feehily

There is no question, and I thought I was clear about this in my opening remarks and in my replies to questions, that we have known since March 2017 about professional tensions and the work being done. To suggest that those were not ventilated to the authority would be wrong. Looking back, the only possible course of action we might have taken might have been to ask the Garda Commissioner to include Ms West and Ms Galligan in the Garda delegation that came to meet us. That is the only way we could have got their voices formally into the room.

We had two telephone calls and, later, a letter which we cannot discuss because they have said it is confidential. During one of those telephone calls, they were given specific assurances that we were live to all of their issues and that all of their issues had been brought into those meetings. We have pursued all those issues in those meetings. That is what I was trying to convey when I said that was probably the most important service that we could do for them at that point, having been given knowledge by them and putting in writing to the Commissioner all of their concerns. They were all followed through and they were given that assurance. They were given an assurance on the telephone by my colleague that all of those concerns were on our agenda, would continue to be on our agenda and we persisted with them. I personally spoke on a number of occasions to senior people to make it clear that we were aware of the discontent and that we would not let this matter go unless the analysis service was satisfied.

The Deputy remarked that I was downplaying something in my opening remarks. I am in no way downplaying their evidence about how they were treated. What I am saying is that it is primarily an employment matter and, I imagine, it is a matter the Deputy will want to discuss with their employer when the Commissioner comes before the committee. I was simply echoing that my reaction to that testimony was that I found it deplorable. When listening to them, I wondered whether the authority's activity in May 2017 may have caused the pressure they described because we were pressing very hard for the report.

They were not asking for Ms Feehily to sort out a workplace grievance. In her opening statement, Ms Feehily spoke about this being an employment matter and she stated that, therefore, the authority was excluded from involvement. I do not accept that. They did not bring to the attention of the authority for action any allegations about the manner in which they were being treated. They did not ask for that. In their professional capacity, they were drawing the attention of the authority to the fact that An Garda Síochána was not properly carrying out its function in terms of data classification. They flagged that to the authority. Oversight of the performance of An Garda Síochána is a matter for the Policing Authority.

Ms Josephine Feehily

We heard them and we took up all of those issues.

That is interesting. Ms Feehily also said in her opening statement that there was very little of substance that they said that the authority did not already know about. I find that difficult to understand. Very concerning evidence was given about people who remained at risk potentially through 2017, mainly domestic violence victims. In saying that there was nothing of substance that the authority did not know in March of last year, is Ms Feehily saying that she was aware then that there were women in domestic violence situations who were possibly at risk because of misclassification and because risk indicators were not being recorded properly?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Not only were we aware of it, we raised it at a policing committee in mid-April last year, which was attended by both deputy Commissioners. The issue of risk to victims and potential victims does not arise only in relation to domestic violence; it arises everywhere, including in regard to child sex abuse reports. This comes back to the data quality point. It may be boring to be wittering on about data quality but there are people, risks and victims involved. This is pervasive in the Garda culture and in the casual attitude to data, which I discussed with Deputy Brophy. We have been talking about this in public and in private to senior Garda representatives for well over a year.

Why then did it take until February of this year for a working group to be established to deal with this issue?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The Deputy is mixing up apples and oranges. The working group is about completing a review of homicides. The issue around amending the PULSE system, improving data quality, and managing the risks to future victims right across the crime spectrum, is an ongoing issue.

The working group will not fix that issue. It will continue to review files, cases and data. The much more important piece in terms of future potential victims is the improvement by the Garda Síochána of the PULSE system, the supervision of entries on the PULSE system and that it insist on certain parts of drop-down menus being completed. This is day-to-day work that is not the job of the working group.

Much of that was highlighted by the two women who appeared before the committee and flagged in their initial report in November 2016. This is March 2018. If the authority had taken on board their information and brought it to the attention of the Minister in the course of the last year, we could have been where we are now a year ago. That is the point. They raised the issue with their management but they would not deal with it so they took the matter to the authority, but they found the door closed to them. That is a fact.

Ms Josephine Feehily

As I said, I do not agree that they found the door closed to them. Their interventions were by telephone. They were received professionally and courteously and all of their concerns were known to us. We assured them that we had their letters and that we would not let their concerns drop. Specifically on the risk to victims, the authority has been raising this issue since April 2017 at the highest level within the Garda organisation. It runs across our work. It is not confined to this area. This is just one lens through which data quality is being looked at. When the Deputy studies the child sex abuse report, she will find it equally reflected there.

Which member of the Policing Authority telephoned senior management in August 2017 to inform it that these women had made a complaint?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not understand the Deputy's question.

Lois West told us that on 1 August 2017 she was told by a senior member of management at a management meeting that they had been telephoned by a member of the Policing Authority, stating that she had approached the authority. Does Ms Feehily know who made that telephone call to management? She might remember that Ms West said that in the environment they were in, it felt like somebody telling tales.

Ms Josephine Feehily

As I indicated in my opening remarks, the fact that the analysts were in touch with the authority was not a matter that was confidential. It was generally known and so the telephone call could have been made by anyone, including me. It was a matter that was generally known. It was certainly something that I was impressing on a range of people during July and August of last year because I was extremely concerned that no progress was being made to bring us a report. I was impressing upon a range of people, including at Commissioner level, that we were alive to the disquiet within the analysis service and that we would not accept a report unless it could be established to our satisfaction that it had been fully signed off by the analysis service. It may have been anybody. It may have been me.

Was that telephone call specifically to do with the fact that the women had been in touch and flagging that to management or is Ms Feehily saying it would have been part of a broader conversation or that she does not fully know the answer?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am not identifying a particular telephone call because I do not know what the Deputy is speaking about. What I am saying is that during the months of July and August, following our June public meeting, there was a huge degree of concern within the authority on a range of matters. At the time we were in the middle of a piece of work around breath tests and governance issues in that regard. I was actively encouraging that we needed to see real progress by September and that we would not accept a report unless it had been signed off by the analysis service. In regard to the specific telephone call to which the Deputy refers, I do not know.

Ms Feehily said in her opening statement that the analysts were advised by authority staff that it had their letter of 11 May. When, and by whom, were they informed? Was that advice given in writing or via a telephone call?

Ms Josephine Feehily

It was a telephone call.

Who made the telephone call?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The secretary of the Policing Authority made the call.

Who gave the letter to the witness?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The liaison office gave it to us. As I told Deputy Brophy, we have a liaison office and everything comes through it. It was given to us through the Garda liaison office. It is an email link.

Ms Feehily made the point that the document was provided to the Policing Authority in the interests of transparency. How does she know the reason the document was provided?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The deputy commissioner told me that was the reason. We went back to verify that we had it on the record because there is no point in having something if it cannot be used. We sought to verify that it was on the record and the answer we received was, yes, that openness was required on this issue.

I am conscious that one of the key reasons for the establishment of the authority was due to the culture in place in the Garda and the difficulties with regard to speaking out. In that context, and realising that the testimony given by the two analysts here spoke very much to that culture and the difficulty of speaking out in An Garda Síochána, is Ms Feehily sticking to the line that this was a matter in which the authority could not get involved? I apologise if I am asking the same question but I feel it is not being answered. How in God's name can it be said that this is an employment issue when the issues being raised related to the functioning of the systems? Is that not the reason the Policing Authority was set up in the first instance?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The employment issue I was referring to was the manner in which they were being treated in their workplace.

They never asked for that to be considered.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It was simply an observation I made in my opening remarks that I found their evidence to be deplorable. It was an observation. I am entitled to make observations.

Ms Feehily is absolutely entitled to make observations but that was not why the analysts went to the Policing Authority.

Ms Josephine Feehily

That is not what I was referring to; I was referring to my reaction to their evidence. That is all I was doing.

I want to correct that. Ms Feehily said that she could not get involved because she would be conflicted as a result of the fact that it was an employment matter.

Ms Josephine Feehily

That is a separate matter. That is not what I said. If that is the impression I conveyed, I apologise and I will try to be clearer. What I intended to convey in my opening remarks was that I found their testimony in respect of how they were treated in their workplace to be deplorable and that it had echoes for me in other matters with which the Policing Authority was dealing. That is their employment matter. My issue about conflict is entirely different. We have no business being involved in the employment matter. My issue about conflict is that we are a regulator, an overseer. In order to be able to do our jobs properly, we have to have good order about how we engage with the body we oversee. We have established that order through the liaison office. We operate on the basis of transparency in all our engagements with the Garda. From that point of view, when we were asked by a person if they could come to a meeting with the authority, we had no trouble with it. The specific response was that we had no difficulty with their attendance but that it was a matter for the Garda as to who attended. The difficulty for an oversight body in terms of conflicts is that if we become involved in resolving a professional conflict, then we ourselves become conflicted. I am talking about a professional conflict rather than an employment matter. We try to provide structures, we are transparent in our engagement and we invite the Commissioner to meetings. We also insist that people who attend are authorised to commit the organisation. The only way to oversee performance is to deal with people who are authorised to speak.

That is not really the point. The idea being put forward is that Ms West contacted the authority and said "Listen, I'm in awful trouble with the job here. I want to go to a meeting with the authority and the lads won't let me. Any chance you could put in a good word for me to go?" Clearly, nobody rang and asked that she be allowed to go the meeting. I presume she asked to attend the meeting because she had fundamental, diametrically opposed views to other people who were attending it. I come from a catering background. I am not being derogatory when I say that this is not the person who makes the sandwiches; she is the top person and has hands-on access to information in this area. She is of a rank whereby she would not normally be obliged to pick up the phone and ask for the help of the Policing Authority.

Does the witness normally get phone calls from people at that high a level? The analyst told the witness that she should be at the meeting. If that did not set alarm bells ringing then, given all the points the witness has made about her awareness of the culture, the problems and the professional tensions, how can that be a conflict? It is the witness's job to deal with this; she is there to oversee that and to shake it up.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I can only answer that by referring to where we were last April. These actions took place last April, not last week. Last April, we were very alive to all of the issues. We had taken the initiative and had set up a meeting. Our records of the telephone exchange are very simple. The analysts understood that there was a meeting and they asked if they could come. The answer was that the authority had no difficulty with their attendance but that it was a matter for the Garda as to who was to attend. We are examining that engagement now through the lens of something that happened a couple of weeks ago. At the end of the day, the most important thing is that the homicide review proceeds. All of the authority's work has been to insist that the analysis service was fully involved and that it signed off on the material that came to us, and that happened. However, our capacity to engage must be open. We oversee the entire organisation, which includes the analysis service as well as the sworn side, and we have to take a view on its performance also. That is the reason we have to be very careful that we are not in a position of moderating in a situation that is clearly a matter for the Commissioner to resolve.

I do not see this as an employment matter or a professional conflict. I see it as the authority denying itself access to information that would have assisted it in fulfilling its statutory role, which is to oversee the performance of An Garda Síochána in its functions, because that was the nature of the information that was brought to it, and the analysts were the only people who had that information.

Ms Josephine Feehily

We already had all of that information.

I have two points to make. I have had to take the decision to excuse the representatives of the Garda Síochána Inspectorate, Mr. Mark Toland and his colleagues. They understood that we have overextended our engagement here this morning. We will meet them in a stand-alone engagement to discuss the very important matters discussed today. Today's engagement with the representatives of the Policing Authority is clearly of huge importance and interest to members. That said, I do not want people to abuse that fact, because we are going to have a little more time today. I hope that the members of the committee are in agreement with that decision. We will write to Mr. Toland, the chief inspector, to convey our apologies for the inconvenience they were subjected to this morning.

Before inviting Deputy O'Callaghan to speak I wanted to say that while answering Deputy Clare Daly's question Ms Feehily indicated that perhaps the one thing she might have done would have been to indicate that both Ms West and Ms Galligan would be part of the meeting. I want to share with her that this committee said quite specifically in its request to the acting Commissioner that Ms West and Ms Galligan would be part of the delegation that would present, and they were not. This committee, quite rightly in my view, provided an opportunity for the two serving members of the analysis unit to come before us. We would be no better informed than what An Garda Síochána presented here on the day it attended unless we had taken the decision to accommodate both Ms West and Ms Galligan.

There are lessons for everybody in that because the Policing Authority would be no further on either. That simply would not be enough. I call Deputy O'Callaghan.

I thank the witnesses for attending. When did the Policing Authority first become aware that An Garda Síochána was conducting a review of homicides?

Ms Josephine Feehily

In late March 2017.

We are aware that this review commenced within An Garda Síochána in July 2016 and that on 29 November 2016, the Garda executive was informed there were very significant issues concerning data on homicides. Is the fact of a review of homicide data not being brought to her attention for quite some time after it had commenced in An Garda Síochána a matter of concern to Ms Feehily?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes. The broader issue of the spontaneous notification of events and material to the authority is something we have raised in public as long ago as June 2016, if I am not mistaken, when we felt we had not been given a spontaneous disclosure about whatever was the problem at that time; it was the fixed-charge penalty notices in June 2016. We subsequently raised it in the context of our work on breath tests and it is included in one of our submissions to which I referred.

An issue of concern to this committee is that we are aware from evidence that was given to us that the individuals who were conducting the homicide review were excluded from the preparation of the report on the homicide review between 1 December 2016 and the end of September 2017, which was quite a significant period. Was the Policing Authority aware that the individuals who carried out the homicide review had been excluded by Garda senior management?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We were aware in a general way regarding the analysis service, albeit not about the individuals. However, in May it became very clear.

Ms Helen Hall

Yes, very clear.

Ms Josephine Feehily

By 11 May or whenever we received the letter - it was on 12 May - we had the letter to the Commissioner from Ms West and Ms Galligan. Then we became aware of the specific exclusion but certainly we were aware from the beginning of the general exclusion of the analysis service, yes.

Does Ms Feehily regard that as being just an issue of professional tension within the analysis section or between the analysis section and Garda management, or does she see it as being something different from that, in that it concerns the carrying out of the homicide review by the Garda as an institution?

Ms Josephine Feehily

There a couple of different tensions at play. As I referenced earlier, there certainly was a tension between science and investigators. There was also a tension within the Garda side that was very visible to us. There was a range of different points of view and some of that is entirely understandable because the crime counting rules allow for balance of probability. The Deputy would be more familiar than most of us with how complicated that can get.

The authority has also referenced that until such time as there is a much stronger critical mass of senior professional civilians in the Garda Síochána, there will always be a tension between Garda uniformed and civilian personnel. That just is the way it is. That was another tension that we saw playing out.

It is impossible to avoid at least speculating that the findings were likely to be troublesome and whether there was a risk of that. I am speculating.

Okay. When Ms West telephoned the Policing Authority on 3 April 2017, did she apprise it of the fact that she and her colleague who were conducting the homicide review had been excluded by Garda senior management?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No, because our response to her was that they were welcome to attend the meeting from our point of view but the question of who attended was a matter that they needed to clear at their side.

Do I take it from that then, that the only issue raised in that telephone conversation was a request by Ms West to attend a meeting?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes. That is correct, is it not?

Ms Helen Hall

If I may, she also would have said to the secretary that she wanted to make sure that all of the issues would be discussed. She was provided with assurance that the agenda was quite wide for it and that we were looking at it broadly. She seemed quite satisfied with that.

She indicated that she was the deputy head of the analysis service.

Ms Helen Hall

Yes, I think she did.

Did she indicate that the reason she was telephoning was because of a concern on her part that she and her colleague had been excluded from the review?

Ms Helen Hall

No.

Did anyone in the Policing Authority think that while it may not have been appropriate to force them to come along to the meeting on 4 April, the authority should meet them or Ms West separately?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Meeting them separately would not have arisen for the reasons I mentioned to do with conflict. As I said in my remarks earlier, looking back with the benefit of what we now know, the one step we could have taken, as the Chairman has referenced, would have been to ask that they be included and, like yourselves, if they were then excluded, we would then perhaps have been able to draw the same conclusion the Chairman drew in his remarks a moment ago. I will not go back over the conflict risks of meeting one group and then another and finding ourselves in the middle.

Was Ms West asking to attend the meeting of 4 April with the head of the Garda Síochána analysis service, GSAS, or the meeting of 13 April with the policing strategy and performance committee?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The one on 4 April.

With the benefit of hindsight, does Ms Feehily believe now that she probably should have met her or her colleague?

Ms Josephine Feehily

As I said, I think the step we could have taken was to insist on their inclusion. That would have avoided at least a misunderstanding about what they perceived as our reaction and what we thought we were responding to but I guess that would probably have come after the April meeting, not at the 4 April meeting. At that stage, we were in a different stage, but after our meeting in public in April, looking back, it might have been appropriate to say they needed to be part of the delegation.

At the meeting on 4 April with the head of GSAS, did Ms Feehily mention that by the way, the authority got a telephone call on the day before from the deputy head who was conducting the homicide review and who had concerns and whether the head of GSAS could elaborate on those concerns?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I could have done. I may have done. As I said a number of times, it was not regarded as confidential. It was an entirely unremarkable telephone call and the introduction was made with the knowledge of a senior member of the Garda senior management team, so it was not in any way flagged as a secret.

What was of particular concern to Ms West and Ms Galligan is that on 11 April 2017, they had been asked to prepare a report in response to the Policing Authority request 210. They prepared that report but it was not sent to Ms Feehily. Is that correct? We can agree on that.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

In response to Deputy Clare Daly, Ms Feehily said that the first time she became aware of that report was when they gave evidence about that. Is it not correct, however, that they brought to Ms Feehily's attention the fact that they had produced a report and that it had not been sent to her in a letter dated 30 June 2017?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am not in a position to discuss that letter. They have declined to give us permission to discuss that letter.

The answer Ms Feehily gave Deputy Clare Daly was that the first time the Policing Authority heard that they had prepared a report for the Policing Authority it was not sent to the authority. The first time Ms Feehily heard of that was when they gave evidence two weeks ago.

Ms Josephine Feehily

What I intended to indicate - I think I did say this - was that we were aware that there was a report. I was trying to be discreet about something I do not have permission to discuss, referencing the public event.

For her own sake, I believe Ms Feehily is incorrect in stating that the first time she became aware was when she gave evidence. I note the point she is making, which is that if it is contained within the letter of 30 June, Ms Feehily is not permitted to disclose that but I would have thought that fact is not a fact of confidentiality.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I can only say that we asked for permission and it was declined.

I believe Ms Feehily also had a meeting on 13 April with the policing strategy and performance committee.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

At that meeting, did Ms Feehily raise the fact that the deputy head who was carrying out this review had contacted this office and was concerned about the manner in which the review was being conducted?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I doubt it because at that time that concern had not been flagged to us. It was simply a request to attend a meeting. I attended that committee meeting, and the chief executive can elaborate if necessary. Our focus at that time was that we were given a very clear commitment that there was a report, that it would be ready in two weeks. That is what I referenced to Deputy Daly. That is my memory of when I knew there was a report being prepared. It comes from that date, without it necessarily being labelled as a report that we were not given, if the Deputy understands the point I am making.

I would like to move on at this point to the public meeting of 27 April. In her opening statement, Ms Feehily said that by late March or early April there was very little of substance in what was stated by Ms West and Ms Galligan regarding the review of which the Policing Authority was not aware at that stage. Did Ms Feehily not think it appropriate to raise with members of An Garda Síochána's senior management the fact that the persons carrying out the review had concerns about it?

Ms Josephine Feehily

When I said that there was very little that we were not aware of, I was speaking about the substance of the review, the issues it was addressing, the work that had been done and the fact that there were huge concerns about classification and, possibly, investigation issues. At that point, their concerns, which were brought to our attention by letter in May, were about how they were treated as opposed to the issues to do with homicides. We were focused on issues to do with homicide and homicide investigations and on challenging the Commissioner to complete the work and give us assurances for the victims and families. We were not focused at that point on who did what precisely.

I have reviewed the video of the proceedings of the meeting of 27 April and the impression I got was that the Garda was trying to present to the Policing Authority that the report had been completed, that it was sorry the authority had only received it late the night before, that matters had been resolved, that there were a number of recommendations that needed to be implemented and that it was happy with what had happened. Is that a wrong impression on my part?

Ms Josephine Feehily

It is not a wrong impression of what was presented. However, I hope the Deputy did not get the impression that we accepted it.

I did not. Much of the time when Ms Feehily was being asked about whether she was misled, she was concentrating on the motivation of An Garda Síochána. Leaving aside whether the Garda intended to mislead the authority, does Ms Feehily accept as a fact that the authority was misled at that meeting on 27 April?

Ms Josephine Feehily

One cannot be misled if one does not allow it. This is the point I was trying to make. We did not accept it and we told the Garda we did not accept it. We had a robust private meeting before the public session. We wrote to the Garda immediately after the meeting saying, "We take the strongest possible objection to this in terms of its tone, its content and its accuracy." I am not trying to be difficult. If I say we were misled, that sounds like we sat there passively and accepted what was presented. We did not do so and we rejected it in very direct terms.

Had Ms Feehily been naive and accepted what was said, would she have been misled?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

When I asked Dr. Singh whether he had concerns about the accuracy of the information that was given to the authority, his response was that he did have concerns in that regard. We know that Ms West and Ms Galligan also had concerns about it because, as mentioned by Ms Feehily, they wrote the letter of 11 May subsequent to that. Is that correct?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

Am I correct that Ms Feehily had sight of that letter on 12 May?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

What was Ms Feehily's response to it? Did it give rise to further concern on her part?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We had two responses. First, we sought to ensure that we could have it on the record so we could use it, and we clarified that with the Commissioner, and, second, we went through the concerns and, as I said earlier, we were already aware, because we had rejected the material, that it was inaccurate and incomplete. We were aware that it was not a report. It did not have a start and an end, it had no methodology or detail and it did not set out the work the analysis service had done, and we had rejected it. Following on from my point that there was nothing of substance that was new, we knew that the material we received was inadequate, incomplete and inaccurate.

Can I take it from Ms Feehily's response that, on reading the letter of 11 May on 12 May, there was nothing new in it for her?

Ms Josephine Feehily

There was nothing new in substance.

Ms Feehily is a person for whom I have a lot of admiration. She is not a person who holds back if she feels she is being misled. If she knew all of this at the meeting of 27 April, why did she allow the Garda to attempt to mislead the Policing Authority?

Ms Josephine Feehily

First, I do not think I did. I remember feeling at the time that I had been robust in my response.

I am very conscious of fair procedure and we received the material at 8.30 p.m. the night before. We had read it quickly. That particular meeting in public was at 11 a.m., which is unusual, because the Commissioner had a security engagement. We said we would consider it in detail in the afternoon and then we wrote the letter. To that extent, I was trying to make sure that we had not jumped to conclusions. We wanted to study these eight pages and to see if there was something. We also asked a number of questions in public session that might have helped us understand. Before coming to a conclusion, which we did that evening, we felt it was reasonable to give the Commissioner an opportunity to answer some questions and then for us to go back and consider carefully what we had received. We formed a view and we conveyed that view to the Commissioner a couple of days later about the non-acceptance of the material.

The authority received the letter from Ms West on 12 May and on 16 May, she again phoned the Policing Authority. Is that correct?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

What note does the witness have of what Ms West said to the Policing Authority on that occasion?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Give me one moment and I will locate it. She expressed concerns about the homicide review and the classification of data. The person she telephoned was not dealing with the matter and had to consult colleagues. She called her back; the conversation was short. She was not in a position to speak. She then called my colleague back and she was assured that, as she would have seen from the authority's meeting with the Commissioner in public, the matter was being taken very seriously by the authority. She was also advised, and that seemed to be news to her, that we had their letter of 11 May. She was advised that we were demanding additional material, that we were also broadening our inquiry to include the CSO to get their perspectives, and that we absolutely had all of the matters on her letter of 11 May on our agenda. The note I have states that she appeared to be satisfied with the assurances and she thanked my colleague for calling her and giving her that information.

At this stage the authority had received two phone calls from her and had a copy of a five-page letter, dated 11 May. Did no one in the Policing Authority think maybe they should meet this person?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I can only say, with the benefit of hindsight, that we could have asked for them to be included. We would never easily meet an individual without having the context of a representative group because otherwise we cannot do our jobs and we are getting pulled in. We are not arbitrators. We are regulators.

The Policing Authority then sent a letter on 24 May to the Garda Commissioner. This is in the helpful timeline that Ms Feehily provided to the committee yesterday. The Policing Authority stated that it wanted a response and four bullet points were set out. One of them was an article in The Sunday Times with a headline, "Garda analyst washes hands of figures fiasco". Why did the authority not put in as a bullet point there that it wanted a response to the letter of 11 May from the deputy head who was conducting the homicide analysis? They seem to have been airbrushed out of the communication with Garda senior management.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It certainly was not. These are key oversight events. The substance of that letter was at all times part of the engagement at committee. It was not named. We were not saying we are now dealing with page six of a letter. It was the issues and the issues in that letter were at all times part of our thinking.

We move on then and the next public meeting the authority had with the Garda Síochána was on 29 June 2017. At that stage, the authority knew an awful lot, in terms of the information it got from a variety of sources, including the five-page letter of 11 May and the concerns expressed in the phone calls. At that meeting, it was presented to the witness, again by the representatives of An Garda Síochána, that the issues in respect of the database had been rectified. Looking back on what she was told at the meeting of 29 June 2017, does Ms Feehily think she was given an accurate account of the status of the homicide review at that stage?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No. That one is a more significant time point for us. After that I was very concerned, but not just about this issue - to remind ourselves, we were in the middle of work in relation to breath tests. I was very concerned.

Everyone has their own different way of dealing with an issue but, looking back on it, does Ms Feehily think that the Garda publicly got off quite lightly at that hearing?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The thing that I remember most from that event was the introduction of a whole new topic to do with deaths in relation to road collisions not being properly classified. That was news. That took us off on a whole other direction which we then had to follow up with the Road Safety Authority because we have reached a point where we try to find external sources, wherever we can, to confirm Garda data.

After the meeting on 29 June 2017, a letter was sent the next day by Ms West on 30 June 2017 to the Policing Authority, in which she expressed concerns. I know the witness does not want to go into the detail of that on the grounds of confidentiality, but at that stage the authority must have been saying that it had now had two lengthy communications from the person carrying out the review and two phone calls from her. Why did it not meet her and talk to her?

Ms Josephine Feehily

At that stage, I was extremely concerned that there had been no progress that I could see that was any way substantive in relation to advancing this matter between the April and June meetings. My focus was on making sure that the work was being done. I spoke to a number of people, including at Commissioner level. I also indicated to them that the authority would not be accepting any material on this unless we were satisfied the analysis service had signed off. As I said earlier, I thought that was the most useful thing I could do with material that I could not use otherwise because it was confidential.

Looking back on all of that interaction, does Ms Feehily regret the fact that the Policing Authority did not decide to meet these two women to see what their concerns were and if they were legitimate?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I regret two things. I have been struck, listening to their evidence, about some of the date symmetry. It is possible that the pressure we were exerting may have led in turn to some of the mistreatment that they recounted because there are dates where we intervened and certain things seemed to happen. If we added to that distress by pressing the Commissioner for responses, that is certainly regrettable. I do believe, had we known, that we could have insisted earlier on the inclusion of Ms Galligan and Ms West in some of the meetings that we had.

This committee's concern is that Ms Galligan and Ms West believed that they had accurate information to give to the Policing Authority. They believed the authority was not being given accurate information by Garda senior management. It concerned an important issue. They believed that there were attempts by Garda senior management to pull the wool over the authority's eyes to cover up the nature of the homicide review that was being conducted. There probably would have been a benefit from meeting them.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I accept that is their belief, but from where we are sitting, we were embedded in great detail in this work right through last year. We were challenging everything. We accepted nothing. In fact, one of the things that struck me about their evidence to the committee was that they were more reassured in September than we were. We were not reassured in September. Ms West said she was reassured in September. They also indicated that they had no reason to lack confidence in the new group. We are not at that stage yet, until we meet it and see its product. In some ways, we have been less reassured than some of the evidence that they gave the committee. While I accept that it is their belief that they had information we did not have, I can only assure this committee and Deputy O'Callaghan that we did have it.

From the point of view of everyone here, and Ms Feehily's concern as well, when does she think we will have a completed homicide review and report?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I noticed that both Chief Superintendent Sutton, when he appeared before the committee, and the witnesses from the analysis service were not able to answer that.

We will be getting an interim report in April because I will want to see how they are working. We want to see them putting milestones in, but they are certainly talking about September before we get anything and I would not necessarily hold my breath on that one.

I thank Ms Feehily and Ms Hall.

I thank Deputy O'Callaghan. Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire is next. For the information of the committee he will be followed by Senator Martin Conway, Deputy Jack Chambers and Deputy Alan Kelly. Anyone else who wishes to speak may indicate.

I thank Ms Feehily and Ms Hall for attending this afternoon. I must apologise because I will have to depart for another engagement as soon as I finish my questions. First, I wish to deal with the initial public presentation of the homicide report, or document, as Ms Feehily has referred to it, in April. It is fair to say that it was an extraordinary episode when taken in the context of everything we have learnt since. This document was heavily criticised by Ms Feehily and the Policing Authority. It was stated by Dr. Gurchand Singh that although he did not raise it at that meeting, he had serious concerns and was not satisfied with it, and clearly Ms West and Ms Galligan were not at all happy with it. It appears that only the senior gardaí who presented the document at the meeting were satisfied with it.

One of the key issues with the document was not only its content but the process that took place before it was presented to the Policing Authority and the fact that Ms Galligan, Ms West and the Garda analysis service were not consulted, despite being significantly involved in the audit and Ms Galligan and Ms West being the primary analysts. The analysts were not involved in the report that was presented. Does Ms Feehily agree that it was unusual and remarkable and that if a comparable report were to have been prepared by the drugs section and presented to the Policing Authority, those involved would have been consulted?

Ms Josephine Feehily

It was very clear to us that the entire analysis service had not been consulted and we dealt with it at that level. When a range of units in any large organisation is involved in a piece of work, the authority is entitled to expect that the product that emerges from the work will have involved the voices and expertise of all of the functions. The answer is "Yes" but I also have to say that I would have expected that it was the Commissioner's responsibility to resolve matters and present us with a unified document, and we got neither.

I do not disagree with that, but I take it that Ms Feehily is saying it was quite extraordinary that the Garda analysis service was not consulted.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

I thank Ms Feehily. During the course of the testimony I put it to Ms West whether the fact that they were not consulted could be an oversight and she responded that she was not sure she could conclude it was an oversight. I must say I am inclined to agree. Does Ms Feehily believe that it was an oversight or that it was something else?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I believe, as I said earlier, and this is a personal assessment of what was going on, because the matter of the professional tensions had not been resolved, it was in that context that they were not involved in the preparation of that document we received for April, because if they had been consulted, obviously they would have objected.

Does Ms Feehily agree, given the testimony received here two weeks ago, that it is very clear that the senior gardaí who were present at the Policing Authority meeting were perfectly aware of the disquiet of the analysis service but presented the document in any event? The complaints and concerns had already been presented to them. Does Ms Feehily agree that they would have been aware of that, and in that context, is it credible that it would simply have been an oversight? Is it the case that the members of the senior Garda management who were present at the meeting were perfectly aware of the concerns that existed and proceeded to present the document anyway?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know if it was an oversight, but it certainly was an inadequate document from our point of view because they, as well as the detail and methodology, had been excluded. It was an inadequate document and inaccurate in several respects. I can see where the Deputy is going with it, but I am trying to be fair and think what was in somebody's mind in sending us a piece of paper at 8.30 p.m. I do not believe, however, that it was an oversight.

It is quite extraordinary. I appreciate that Ms Feehily has to be even-minded. However, she has said that, had the Policing Authority accepted the testimony given to it, it would have been misled and that she believes it was not an oversight. For any of us listening to her and the testimony we received two weeks ago, it is hard not to conclude that there was not an attempt to railroad the report through the Policing Authority, as well as an attempt not to draw too much attention to it and allow the process to be completed without the serious concerns of Ms Galligan and Ms West being taken on board. When one combines this with the fact that it may not have been an oversight and that the authority could have been misled, it is quite an extraordinary set of circumstances. At what stage did Ms Feehily become aware of the particular pressure put on Ms Galligan and Ms West on 8 and 10 May?

Ms Josephine Feehily

When they gave evidence here. I became aware of the pressure they had been put under and the description of how they felt when I reviewed the transcript of their evidence to the committee.

In her opening statement Ms Feehily made reference to her own knowledge-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am sorry, but in case I mislead the Deputy again, there is a letter which I cannot discuss. I am answering the Deputy in the context of what is on the public record.

In her opening statement Ms Feehily stated:

Returning to the homicide review, the position is that the authority has many sources of intelligence and information regarding this homicide review - perhaps more than Ms West and Ms Gavigan [it should be Galligan] realise - and has done a huge amount of work.

That is quite a cryptic statement. Will Ms Feehily elaborate on it?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I can elaborate on it to some extent. We had intelligence which had been given to us in March from several sources. In the first instance, it caused us to invite the analysis service to a meeting. I am not in a position to elaborate further, but we had a significant amount of information in late March at the level of the authority.

I obviously appreciate that Ms Feehily cannot go into the full details. However, is it fair to say it was not a communication made directly or officially by An Garda Síochána with the Policing Authority?

Ms Josephine Feehily

It was intelligence. That is the best way I can describe it. I am minded by the strictures of the Chairman not to talk about people outside the committee. I really cannot go much further into it. It certainly did not come on headed paper, if that is what the Deputy is asking.

Ms Feehily can answer as she sees fit. The context of this disclosure or intelligence was clearly the basis of disquiet and concern at what was happening.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The first part was intelligence. There was a piece of work about which we did not know and about which Deputy Jim O'Callaghan asked me. It was intelligence about a piece of work about which we did not know and some of the context.

In her opening statement, Ms Feehily placed considerable reliance on a distinction between what she has described as the fact and detail of the disquiet of Ms West and Ms Galligan and the content of their direct communication. That is a fine distinction to try and draw.

I want to put several quotes from the committee meeting on 7 March with Ms West and Ms Galligan.

Deputy Jack Chambers asked Ms West, "Was she concerned that the Policing Authority had made no contact with her or Ms Galligan?" She responded, "I have to be honest and say yes, I was very concerned."

She was further asked, "Ms West was concerned that the Policing Authority had made no attempt to engage with her on the issues she had brought to bear." She responded:

Yes; I am sure it must have had a rationale. I know that there are governance structures in place and chains of command, but I felt that if I was in that position and had people who clearly wanted to tell me something or be sure I was in possession of all the facts, I would have wanted to sit down and listen to what they had to say.

Deputy Kelly asked, "If people from the Policing Authority were watching Ms West and me talking now and they asked to meet her, would Ms West accept that request and welcome it?" Ms West responded, "Absolutely, yes."

Further on, Deputy Brophy observed, "It is not just that the Policing Authority ignored it, then; it formally declined." He later asked, "Do the witnesses believe the Policing Authority let them down in how it dealt with them?" Ms West answered, "Yes."

I know Ms Feehily has offered a defence of the Policing Authority's response to this. However, it is clear Ms Galligan and Ms West felt that they were let down and their concerns were not dealt with promptly or adequately.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I appreciate that is how they perceived it and how they felt. I can only tell the Deputy, based on facts, what we did and the work that we did. At no point did we decline. That is not something I recall or can agree with in terms of their testimony. I cannot accept either that they were not contacted. Each time they made contact, they got a response - twice on the telephone and once in writing. Each time they were thanked. Each time they were assured we were not letting this issue drop and we were live to all of their concerns.

I accept this is perception. They perceive things in a certain way. Our belief is that we responded each time and that we persisted with all of the issues. I suppose we felt that the most important thing we could do was persist in not letting this matter go away. We persisted in ensuring that anything that came to the authority had to have complete sign-off by the analysis service. Our perception and our belief is that we did not ignore their concerns. We treated them as part of that intelligence that we had. We persisted and continue to persist. As I indicated earlier, we are not quite as reassured about the current state of play as they represented to the committee, based on our broader work.

I want to put one more quote from that meeting. Deputy Clare Daly asked:

Ms West was told on 1 August by a member of Garda management that the Policing Authority was aware of her approaches and so on. Did Ms West find this strange?

Ms West responded:

That was in the context of a management meeting I was part of. It was raised with me as part of a wider management meeting. Obviously, there were not many people present but I was immediately concerned. To be honest I felt quite compromised. I absolutely understand that there are governance structures and that people are very wary of sharing data, as are we. We have been the souls of discretion in protecting data and case-specific information. I felt it was a breach of trust and a compromise. Where we had been trying to raise the issues and do what we felt was right to try to get the truthful message to enable the authority to be able to craft and ask pertinent questions at meetings, not only was our voice not being heard, they kind of told tales on us.

It is hard to reconcile Ms Feehily's statements that it was common knowledge or whatever that they had elevated this issue to the Policing Authority with the comments made. Perhaps I am not characterising that correctly. Is it fair to say from Ms Feehily's previous answers to questions and from her opening statement that it was essentially common knowledge that these issues had been elevated by Ms West and Ms Galligan to the Policing Authority, such was their concern?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I would not maybe go as far as "common knowledge", but certainly not confidential. It was known and it was entirely unremarkable. I stated earlier the fact that the Garda authorities gave us a copy of their letter and it was communicated back to Ms West that we had it. The Deputy has to understand that the Policing Authority is engaging every day with people who work in the Garda Síochána. Telephone calls are made. Matters received on headed paper, we are entitled to assume, are official, etc. The fact that there was contact from the analysis service with the authority was certainly well known. The first introduction from Ms West was that she had been given the name and personal number of the authority's secretary by a member of Garda senior management. In that case, we were entitled to assume that it was knowledge.

Surely there is a distinction between correspondence from the Garda analysis service directly to the Garda Commissioner being referred to the Policing Authority and direct contact between Ms West and Ms Galligan and the Policing Authority. Surely those are distinct.

Ms Josephine Feehily

There is a distinction that we make - we make it definitely in the statement and I make it again - between routine engagement and a letter which we received which had a whole different character and was clearly sensitive. The fact we said straight away that this was different indicates how unremarkable the previous contact had been. The authority's chief executive contacted, wrote back and asked if we could use this information, and at that point, they indicated that we were not free to use that information which is why I am not in a position to discuss the content of that letter. However, routine engagement, such as a telephone call asking if we can come to a meeting or asking about concerns, which was responded to was not regarded as confidential.

It seems there is something missing here or something, perhaps, I am not understanding. In the phone calls which Ms Feehily has described and has detailed to us, it sounds as though the sensitive details of this were not necessarily discussed. As I say, there is clearly a distinction between official correspondence to the Garda commission and then across to the Policing Authority and the letter that was sent to the Policing Authority but the point at which Ms West was told that the Policing Authority - this is how it was put - "was aware of her approaches" was on 1 August, which is a considerable period after 11 May. Is there any possibility that there was any indication from the Policing Authority to An Garda Síochána that there was direct contact between Ms Galligan and Ms West and the Policing Authority? Was that ever conveyed to An Garda Síochána?

Ms Josephine Feehily

As I state, the fact that there was direct contact on more than one occasion - there was direct contact in April and in the second half of May - was not regarded as confidential and it could most certainly have been discussed, but the content of their direct communication, which they flagged as confidential, was not discussed.

Was it treated as fully confidential?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Fully honoured.

Was there no indication conveyed to the Garda of the fact that such correspondence had been received by the Policing Authority, whatever about the content of it and the correspondence being treated as fully confidential?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I cannot say precisely what everybody may have said on any given day. I can assure the Deputy that the letter and the subsequent correspondence was treated with the utmost confidentiality within the authority. That is the only assurance I can give the Deputy.

I must underline that the fact that there was contact was not, in itself, confidential. Something changed when we received a letter which had a different tone. It was sensitive. We asked for permission, and that correspondence was treated with the utmost confidentiality.

May I step in?

I will finish on this.

No, I merely want to make a brief point for everybody. I would indicate that Deputy Ó Laoghaire has taken the shortest time so far. I am only reflecting to members that I had overlooked, and was reminded only a short time ago, that we are likely to have a vote in the Dáil Chamber some time after 1 p.m. I have sent a text to check.

I do not want to curtail anybody. I want all members to have the full opportunity but I ask that each member be more precise and bring it to the earliest possible close. I ask Deputy Ó Laoghaire to continue.

I am finishing on this. It seems Ms Galligan and Ms West felt let down. We can have differences of opinion on all of this. There is a clear distinction between those initial phone calls, which are information inquiries, etc., and the later correspondence. The later correspondence, which Ms Feehily stated is confidential, clearly was an escalation of a complaint and the detail of the concern to the Policing Authority. It appears from their testimony that something of that nature, not necessarily the detail of it, was communicated back to them. They appeared to be of the understanding that the Garda Síochána had become aware, not that inquiries had been made about the progress of matters or where things were but that this had been escalated to the Policing Authority, and it was clearly their sense that this was not information that would be shared or that they could be confident that knowledge would not come back to them through An Garda Síochána.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I can only repeat that we honoured the confidentiality of that correspondence. I must also underline that people perceive things differently. For example, I noted in their evidence to the committee that they were surprised that we had received their letter to the Commissioner which they gave the Commissioner in May. They had a particular perception about that also, whereas that was shared with us officially on the record and we confirmed that. Their perceptions and our perceptions are perhaps different, in terms of the knowledge in the system about their concerns and about their disquiet, but their direct communication was handled confidentially.

I welcome the ladies. I have stated publicly that I have a high regard for Ms Feehily and I repeat that.

I have listened intently to the evidence presented here today, both in opening statements and in the engagement with members. Ms Feehily said to Deputy Ó Laoghaire that the Policing Authority had already gathered quite an amount of intelligence which concurred with Ms West and Ms Galligan's stated position.

Ms Feehily has said on a number of occasions that the Policing Authority had significant intelligence. How did the authority collect it? How was it gathered and who gave it to the authority?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am certainly not in a position to identify who gave it to us.

Perhaps Ms Feehily might indicate the type of people who gave it to her agency.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Perhaps if I might speak in general terms-----

No, I have been listening for three hours.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have also been sitting here for three hours.

Ms Josephine Feehily

If the Chairman does not mind, I will need a break in a few minutes.

We are contacted all the time by lots of people. We hear what they have to say and treat it as intelligence. They include people within the Garda, people who used to be in it and people in the community. This goes on all the time. We had intelligence of that nature.

I was not asking Ms Feehily to name anybody.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I understand that.

I was asking her to give me the categories of people who contacted the Policing Authority, how they made contact and, most importantly, how Ms Feehily's agency engaged with them.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I will tell the Senator.

Does the Policing Authority meet them?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No, we do not. That is the point I am making. We receive intelligence and assess it. We seek to get material through an official route by asking for reports. We then interrogate the reports and hold the Commissioner to account. That is the way we work.

No matter how explosive the information the Policing Authority receives on the telephone or in writing, Ms Feehily does not deem it to be necessary to meet any of the people involved to have further interaction and perhaps elicit further information. Is that correct?

Ms Josephine Feehily

What we do is assess the quality of the intelligence received which almost all of the time relates to a matter appropriate to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. We have no function and nowhere to go with it and refer it on. If it does not relate to a matter appropriate to GSOC, we seek to get it on the record in order that we can interrogate it openly, publicly and officially. That is the way we handle it.

Let us suppose there is a whistleblower. Let us call them whistleblowers. Ms Feehily says the vast majority of issues are connected to work done by GSOC. If an issue does affect the Policing Authority directly, the stated policy of the authority is that it does not meet whistleblowers or those who provide information for it, rather it deals with them by telephone or in writing.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Generally, that is the way people engage with us and that is the way they prefer to engage with us. A significant amount of our intelligence is provided anonymously; in fact, there are no names or contact details to enable us to engage with them.

I can appreciate that.

Ms Josephine Feehily

We act on intelligence received by going directly to the Garda to say we have received information on X and require it to give information to us. We ask if there is a report or work ongoing on the issue.

I presume Ms Feehily contends that the two ladies have been vindicated in raising their particular concerns?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Insofar as they have indicated to the committee that they were happy to sign off on the report given to the Policing Authority in September, that is one way of representing it. The reason we received a better quality report in September was we had rejected the piece of paper we had been given in April.

Does Ms Feehily also agree that they had nothing to gain by coming before the committee to give evidence? As a matter of fact, they probably had more to lose than gain.

Ms Josephine Feehily

That is a matter for the committee to judge, not me.

I am asking Ms Feehily for her opinion.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know. I am really not in a position to give an opinion.

Ms Feehily also said the Policing Authority would not get involved in what was essentially a human resources issue where there were tensions and so forth. I listened to the evidence of the ladies in great detail. They were very clear that while there were issues, that was not the reason they had contacted the Policing Authority. It is quite clear that they are very disillusioned and disheartened by the manner in which the authority has engaged with them. Ms Feehily has offered a significant defence of the authority and its engagement. I suggest she needs to look at her agency's protocols for dealing with this type of situation.

The other problem the Policing Authority has is one of gaining public confidence. It is the most serious problem. It is possible that public confidence in the authority has been eroded somewhat as a result of this issue. If that is the case, the challenge for Ms Feehily is to regain public confidence.

I would like her opinion on the matter of public confidence. She has already spoken about perception. Public perception is most important in the work the Policing Authority does.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I completely accept that point. I think public confidence in policing and in policing accountability is enormously important, and I have spoken lots of times about it. If public confidence in the authority has been dented by this, then we will have to work harder at it. I would say, as I am biased and I have a lot of professional pride in the work the authority has done, that I believe that the authority has gained a lot of public confidence by the persistent way in which it has pursued a range of matters. This is only one. As I said in my earlier engagement, were it not for the authority, limited as it is, light would not be shone on a lot of Garda performance issues.

Ms Josephine Feehily

We just have to keep elevating that light.

The authority would have started with significant goodwill, both politically and among the public. It is not that it had to build public confidence. It had significant public confidence.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am not sure I could agree with that from where I was sitting.

The two ladies came before the committee and gave an incredibly powerful account of themselves. Their confidence in the Policing Authority was not what it should have been. The public listening to their testimony here were beginning to wonder if there was an issue here and to ask what was going on. The Policing Authority's representatives have given a fairly robust account of themselves, but they need to revisit their protocols and look at how they deal with people. Those two ladies had a lot to offer, and the authority should have been engaging with them in a one-to-one meeting. Ms Feehily talks about structures and that the authority wants things done officially through An Garda Síochána. Sometimes that does not work. Sometimes when the Policing Authority gets information, it should be possible to pick up the phone and ask someone to come in for a chat. Ms Feehily said that the authority gathers intelligence regularly from different sources. Maybe it is now time to look at the authority's protocols again and meet some of these people.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have no difficulty in committing to look at our protocols. I would still retain a very strong caveat. We meet representative bodies, for example. We meet victims' representative groups. We have to be in a position to meet people in an official context. Otherwise we are stuck with what we can do with the material. This is one of the points the authority made in its review of its own effectiveness. We are a particular type of creature of statute. People assess the authority's performance by reference to what they think we ought to be able to do. An oversight body has to stand above the body it is overseeing. We have to be extremely careful about conflicts. Otherwise we are reducing and damaging our capacity to do our job.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I absolutely agree that we need to review, but it will be in that context.

I am conscious that Deputy Kelly wants to make a contribution before the vote, so I will not detain the committee. On a technical question, there has been a lot of talk about phone calls. I presume that phone calls are recorded for training and quality proposes at the Policing Authority, as in most professional offices?

Ms Josephine Feehily

No.

They should be. If all parties are happy to hand over transcripts for full accountability, I think it is quite extraordinary that the authority does not have that facility whereby most professional outlets have a system for recording calls for training and quality purposes, especially now that Ms Feehily has told the committee that the authority gathers intelligence over the phone and in writing from a host of people. I am quite shocked that this type of record does not exist for the sake of accuracy.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I think that would raise some data protection issues that I would be very nervous about with the EU general data protection regulation, GDPR, coming into force. However, I will consider it.

Many other companies should be nervous as well in that case.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The stuff we are receiving is-----

Senator Conway's contribution has been noted. I think that would be fair to say. Ms Feehily has noted the Senator's remarks. I do not want Deputy Chambers and Deputy Kelly to fall out with me. I have a great respect for them both. I have listened very carefully to Ms Feehily throughout. She indicated that she needs a short break.

Is that still the case?

Ms Josephine Feehily

If possible, yes.

Absolutely. We will take the briefest of breaks. I know that Ms Feehily and Ms Hall will be as quick as possible.

Sitting suspended at 12.35 p.m. and resumed at 12.38 p.m.

We will now hear from the two remaining questioners.

I thank Ms Feehily and Ms Hall for whom it has been a long morning.

I will go through the submission and refer to a couple of things mentioned in it. It states, "Since late March 2017, we had intelligence" and also that the concerns of the two Garda analysts "were already well known to us before their contact". Ms Feehily also stated: "I can honestly say that there was very little of substance in it about the review which we did not know or have grounds to believe since late March or early April of last year." In her statement she referred three or four times to evidence and intelligence she already had. She also mentioned that intelligence had been disclosed to her on the record for her to probe it. If the intelligence is on the record, surely she can enlighten us on what it is and from whom it came because it seems to contradict some of the evidence given by the two analysts? There is a contradiction and Ms Feehily must clarify the matter.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I understand. Obviously, I did not make myself clear.

When we receive intelligence, we seek to get it on the record. The intelligence we had was not on the record. The first step we took was to invite the analysis service to a meeting. That happened. The invitation was issued on or around 29 or 30 March. We receive intelligence from a lot of sources and try to get material on the record which we can then interrogate. The intelligence we had was not on the record.

It is still not on the record.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It is still not on the record.

Ms Feehily has said the Policing Authority invited-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am sorry to interrupt, but the reason I included it was to show the committee why we had not found the information from Ms West and Ms Galligan remarkable. We already had a lot of it from other sources.

Ms Feehily has said the Policing Authority had a meeting about the intelligence received. Is that the meeting at which they were on the public record or are they separate meetings?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We invited the analysis service to a meeting. When we receive intelligence about something which causes concern, we set about trying to verify it. Somebody else went to try to talk to the CSO and we put the matter on the agenda for a committee meeting we had with the Garda. We went at it in a number of ways.

We are taking a step back. The people who were uncovering the evidence and actually investigating the whole process were the two people who contacted the Policing Authority. I am not aware of anyone else who was actively pursuing PULSE system files at the time, apart from the two people who were actively involved and came before the committee. On a weekly basis they were uncovering new evidence which they were willing to present to the authority. However, Ms Feehily has said the authority already had it. That is contradictory.

Ms Josephine Feehily

What I said was we were already aware of the issues they were raising with us. The detail of their issues and disquiet was contained in the letter of 11 May they had sent to the Commissioner. From our records, the contact before that was simply a request to attend a meeting. The response they received was that, from the Policing Authority's point of view, there was no difficulty with them attending. It was a matter for the Garda.

They had intelligence which the Policing Authority did not probe in a greater way. Does Ms Feehily accept that?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Their intelligence came to us in a letter they had given the Commissioner on 11 May. By then we had been through our own work and the public meeting in April. We had been through a range of committee meetings and official engagements and already rejected the work about which they were expressing concern.

As such, the Policing Authority felt there was no need to probe it further.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It is not that there was no need; we had been probing it since last March and are still not finished. All my colleague was trying to convey to them at the time was that we were alive to all of their concerns. They were given that assurance over the telephone that all of their concerns were being pursued.

Ms Feehily mentioned that the Policing Authority was trying to shine a light on issues. From my perspective and that of others on the committee, the people concerned had a torch of intelligence that they wanted to provide for the authority on which to engage. Their perception of the response of the authority is that they hit a brick wall. Despite the assurances given, there is a difference between Ms Feehily's assurance and what they believe they received. What is the reason their perception is one of stone-walling? Why does Ms Feehily think that is what they believe?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I could not possibly answer that question. I have no idea. I can only tell the Deputy what our understanding is and what is our perception of our actions. I cannot explain their perceptions.

They have said they felt the Policing Authority let them down.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I understand that is what they said; I am just saying I cannot account for why they feel like that. I can only explain to the Deputy how we believe we handled their engagement professionally. They were thanked and reassured that they were free to come as part of a Garda delegation to meet the Policing Authority. That message was conveyed to them early in April 2017. That is our perception and it is the only one for which I can account.

That is the same Garda delegation which, as Ms Feehily is aware, tried to get them to sign off on something retrospectively.

Ms Josephine Feehily

The meeting they wished to attend was the meeting with the analysis service.

When did the authority become aware that pressure had been put on the analysts to sign off retrospectively on the report it had rejected?

Ms Josephine Feehily

When they gave evidence here, unless it was in the confidential letter

The authority was aware.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have to be careful because there is material I have in confidence. I am speaking about what I knew on the public record.

That means the authority was aware of the pressure that was imposed on them.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Deputy Jack Chambers may say that. I am not saying it.

I know, but that is the conclusion from what Ms Feehily has said. It is a big concern if the authority was aware of pressure that was imposed on the analysts to change, retrospectively, something the authority had rejected. Did the authority attempt to get clarification from them so that it could pursue the matter of the pressure that was brought to bear on them?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We treated the material we received from the analysts in confidence as part of the intelligence which I described earlier and which we also treat in confidence. We pursued all of the concerns by insisting right up to Garda Commissioner level during July and August that we would accept nothing on this topic unless it was fully signed off by the analysts, which is why I reflected earlier that perhaps our pressure may have added to the pressure on them inadvertently. That is how we dealt with their concerns. When we could not deal with them directly, we dealt with them by treating it as intelligence and it informed our work.

I want to ask Ms Feehily about what happened on 1 August 2017. The analysts were informed by a member of management that a member of the Policing Authority had made approaches to them. Who in the Policing Authority contacted and phoned Garda management about the approaches they made?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have no idea. As I said in my earlier response-----

Is there a record of that?

Ms Josephine Feehily

----- the fact that there was contact between Ms West in particular and the authority was not confidential.

I am just asking, for the purposes of transparency, who contacted whom. Can we just have the names of the people involved?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know.

Is there no record of that?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not quite know what contact is being referenced. It has been referenced a number of times. Their evidence was that somebody said something to them at a management meeting. I have studied that evidence.

It was referencing a contact over the phone from a member of the Policing Authority.

Ms Josephine Feehily

But not referencing when or by whom. As such, I do not know what is being suggested. I have described how and indicated earlier that it may have been anybody. It may have been me. During July in particular and into August, I was extremely concerned and was contacting several people in Garda management, including up to Commissioner level, to press upon them that this matter needed to be resolved and that we would accept nothing without the analyst service. We were aware of their disquiet and of their concerns. I can go no further than to describe what was going on in July in general terms because I cannot talk about something I do not know.

Let us take a step back to the time before the establishment of the Policing Authority and imagine this was a layer in the Department of Justice and Equality. If people approached the Department of Justice and Equality about a file that was submitted to it and about which they had concerns and someone from the Department contacted the Garda about the contact that had been made, there would be a level of concern about telephone contact on a disclosure someone had made regarding an issue it was pursuing. The Policing Authority, as a regulator, has to be careful in the interests of transparency about the level of telephone contact. I raised the issue about a year ago. There is regulation and there is oversight and then there is this collaboration and active input. The authority has to be very clear about separating the two, otherwise this will arise again. I brought it up over a year and a half ago. If there is collaboration and active input and involvement where the authority becomes the central point of policy input, how does it provide oversight for that?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I agree.

We have a circular issue here whereby the authority was involved with informal contact. How then, in the interests of the two people who appeared before us, can it provide the level of transparency for them when they feel they were rejected?

Procedures within the Policing Authority need to be reformed to ensure anyone who gives intelligence will believe it will be dealt with in such a way that they will be able to feel confident in bringing it to its attention. There is the issue of perception and confidence. Whether Ms Feehily agrees or disagrees, that is the reality and perception. I brought up this issue a year and half ago when I said I had concerns about the level of collaboration. It is equivalent to the Central Bank making decisions on the policy of a particular bank and the way in which it runs its show and then trying to provide for its oversight. In governance terms, it is important that we have that degree of separation, which regular telephone contact does not achieve. That is why there should be a separation that probably was not visible in this instance. I do not know whether Ms Feehily wishes to respond on the issues I have raised or how she proposes to address them in order that if this were to happen again, persons bringing evidence to the committee would not have such a perception.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I certainly would like to respond. The Deputy has described very well, better than I did, the point of conflict and risk regarding how we could get involved or not, as the case may be. I recall very clearly the Deputy raising this issue with me over a year and a half ago and I heard him then. I hope the robust nature of some of the reports we have written on Garda performance gives him some comfort that we have not been captured. It is the circular dilemma to which he referred. If people are to come to us in confidence, will we be conflicted if we hear them? Will we be conflicted if we meet them, as is being suggested, or would we better off in saying we will not even hear them? The approach we have taken is that we should hear people and treat what they disclose as intelligence, in other words, it is not named, and that we should then seek, through the official channels, something we could oversee by calling for a meeting or the production of a report. The Deputy has described very well how difficult it is to achieve this balance.

I am just saying a telephone call should not be seen as an official channel. The process should be more formal than that, particularly for an authority, and removed in terms of the need for regulatory oversight. I know that this is a procedural aspect, but when the authority will not meet people who wish to present matters to it, it should provide for the same distance and level of governance for those whom it regulates. That is why there should be analysis and rigour in the formal public session or it should be done by way of correspondence. There is a need to step back from telephone contact. When those who were making the disclosures received the information from whoever it was in management, they felt a discussion was ongoing informally about what they were presenting to the Policing Authority. They felt undermined and that their evidence was not being valued to the degree it should have been. That is the issue of perception and we need to ensure it will not recur.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I accept that that was their perception.

I do not think it requires a further response. The point has been made by Deputy Jack Chambers and previous speakers.

I will not get through one tenth of my questions and do not want them to overlap with those of other members. There has been much forensic analysis. Does Ms Feehily see some patterns in how senior management in An Garda Síochána provide information for the Policing Authority?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

I refer to the quality of information provided on fixed charges, breath tests, the Garda College and homicides. The next issue is the juvenile liaison programme.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes.

The quality of information provided is not up to standard.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes. I am trying to brief the Deputy. We also identified this issue in the submissions we made.

I put up my hands. The legislation from which the authority works is not fit for purpose. The powers of the authority need to be extended. I had sympathy for Ms Feehily when she talked about how she had tried to influence the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to get around certain issues.

On the issue of ICT, which Deputy Wallace raised and which I have raised on numerous occasions, I, as a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, have greater capacity to deal with it than Ms Feehily. That is insane.

Ms Feehily is chairperson of the Policing Authority. We will deal with this soon, but I wish to run through a number of other issues first.

I am still not in any way clear about the use of Gmail. Deputy Wallace and others raised this. I raised it too and I specifically asked questions of all the senior managers, who all said they did not use it. Obviously, Ms Feehily cannot talk about what is going on in the Charleton tribunal, but it is obvious that information has been given out in the tribunal which shows that Gmail is being used. If the CAO said one thing in a committee, as seems to be the case, and said the complete opposite about providing a report to the authority, does that not raise huge concerns? I am still not clear what has happened here. I am still not clear whether a full report was done. I know about the report. Was it comprehensive? Has it dealt with all the issues? All the senior assistant commissioners and deputy commissioners, who answered the question one by one in another committee room, said they never used it for any official policing purposes, but I do not know what to believe any more.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I have not reviewed our November 2016 meeting for today so I am working from memory and, therefore, subject to correction.

I ask Ms Feehily to give it her best shot.

Ms Josephine Feehily

My recollection is that the assurance we received was that the chief administrative officer had reviewed Gmail traffic at Commissioner level and found there was nothing inappropriate. There was an acknowledgement to us and to this committee some time ago that there was Gmail traffic. Magazine articles were referred to, but the material did not in any way raise a concern. My recollection is that we got that assurance on the record at the November 2016 authority meeting. We called for the report; the report has been shared. Deputy Wallace obviously has it. I am inclined to the view that the CAO just forgot he had supplied us with a report. We reminded him of this about two days later, or perhaps the day we realised he had indicated to the committee that there was no report. Our focus has been on ensuring they get the technical fix in to ensure that it cannot be done, and that is progressing. The thing we are disappointed with is that they have not yet signed off on a policy.

May I make some suggestions? We are caught for time, and I am not trying to be rude. I have great personal admiration for the work Ms Feehily has done previously, but I am not satisfied that the evidence that has been given is consistent on this issue. I am not satisfied that the Garda Commissioner's Gmail account was not being used. I am not satisfied that assistant commissioners and deputy commissioners have not been using Gmail for official Garda business either, and I ask Ms Feehily to look at that. I understand the point about the policy going forward. However, I want to know definitively and once and for all whether previous Commissioners, deputy commissioners or assistant commissioners have used Gmail for official Garda purposes in recent years, since Ms Feehily's inauguration. I am not happy with how this is being dealt with or the evidence that has been given. I know Ms Feehily pointed out what she said.

I referred before to a similarity regarding how evidence is being given to the Policing Authority regarding fixed notices, homicides and breath tests, juvenile liaison being next. I refer to the Crowe Horwarth, CH, report on breath tests and the fact that there was an admonishment of chief superintendents regarding the fact that they had not done anything. Then we were made aware that Assistant Commissioner Twomey had sent out a circular stating they were not to reply to Garda Commissioner O'Sullivan's request for information on this. When was the authority made aware of the circular's existence? Does-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

I am sorry, Deputy. I would have to check-----

I appreciate that.

Ms Josephine Feehily

-----the precise date, but it was very late.

My point here is that the authority was going through a process, and here was a report that admonished chief superintendents who subsequently had to meet the authority to point out that a circular from an assistant commissioner existed telling them they did not have to reply.

With regard to giving evidence to the authority itself, does that not make a mockery of the evidence being given to the authority?

Ms Josephine Feehily

My recollection, and I have not reviewed this for today, is that I am not sure that we have sight of that directive.

But it does exist?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know.

Even at this juncture-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

We were told it existed.

For the purposes of clarity, has the witness not asked whether it exists?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The Chief Superintendents' Association were unhappy with the tone of the Policing Authority meeting, where we felt that the strong responsibilities rested at their level for the governance and supervision issues around all of this. They suggested to us that there were reasons. We met them and we heard them. They showed us a copy but they did not give it to us. It did not change our mind that they were responsible as chief superintendents. At the heart of this breath test issue was a supervision issue and a performance accountability issue for them.

I understand that.

Ms Josephine Feehily

If they felt that they had been given a pass by the deputy Commissioner or assistant Commissioner as he was at the time, we regarded that as a matter for them to take up with their management. We did not shift on our view. The chief superintendent needed to. That is where we left it.

Do the witnesses not think, for the sake of public confidence, that they should find out whether this actually happened? I understand what Ms Feehily is saying, but if chief superintendents are coming to her and saying that a pass, for the want of a better phrase, or a letter has been sent out to say not to respond to a previous communication from the Commissioner and the report comes out and criticises them for not doing it, should questions not then be asked as to why this circular, or pass, was issued in the first place?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We did raise those matters in private in committee.

Did the witnesses get responses?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The responses we got were that the matter was a moveable feast. They had appointed assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan - they have given that testimony to the committee - to do the bigger review. They saw that as where the solution and the work should be done.

Did the witnesses meet with a group of chief superintendents with regard to this issue?

Ms Josephine Feehily

We met all of the associations together and on the periphery of that, one of them raised this matter with us, subsequent to it. I should also point out, and Ms Hall may have something to add, but I understand that Crowe Horwath invited all of the associations to make submissions to them. They were not excluded from the process.

I want to get to the bottom of why that information was not provided to the witnesses.

Ms Helen Hall

It is also quite clear in the Crowe Horwath report that there were mixed messages potentially but that did not take away from their final conclusions. The responsibility, as the Chair has said, was firmly with the chief superintendents. It is their responsibility to deal with matters going on in their area of responsibility. We felt that as long as the message was being sent clearly from the Policing Authority, that this was their responsibility, and the Commissioner had to push that, there was not much more that we needed.

I understand. That is not my issue. My issue is that I want clarity on this pass or circular being sent out and I would expect that the Policing Authority would want to question why an assistant Commissioner would send out a circular like that at that time.

Ms Helen Hall

What we would have seen, and it was not a circular, rather it was an email, first of all saying that this is what needs to be done and then what we were shown - we were not given a copy of it - was to say do not do it. As we said afterwards, it was not clear that there was not further communication. It was not conclusive. It was not a formal directive.

With regard to the 27 April meeting, effectively, the witnesses were not misled because they did not allow themselves to be misled with regard to the issues relating to homicides. I am summing up the evidence the witnesses gave earlier on. I apologise for rushing - it is the benefit of being last.

The Deputy is not last. I have not asked my questions.

I apologise, Chairman.

In that scenario, if the witnesses were not misled, and many people have gone through this, there was obviously an attempt to provide information which was not complete. The witnesses said already that they had other information that was coming through to them. That was an attempt, therefore, to mislead.

Ms Josephine Feehily

There is no secret in that. I have said it. We wrote to the Commissioner within days and said that we were unhappy with the tone, the content and the accuracy. We said that at the time.

This is on the public record, and one can look back on the video. Who were the individuals from An Garda Síochána actually presenting on that report that day?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Clearly the Commissioner was there, one or more of the deputies, Assistant Commissioner Corcoran-----

Who is now retired.

Ms Josephine Feehily

-----and the head of the analysis service.

My issue here is that there is an equation here-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

There are usually about ten of them. I am sorry if I am leaving someone out. There was 17 on one occasion.

I know that. I have watched some of it. The issue here is that on one side there is an attempt to mislead the Policing Authority and on the other side there is the question of the capacity of those presenting to the authority in the first place. That raises even more alarming issues, that is, why those who are presenting such rubbish, a lack of information or lack of detail to the authority in the first place are in such significant roles. It is deeply worrying that there is an attempt to mislead the authority, and the members of the committee have all more or less come to that conclusion, or not provide sufficient information at the very least. However, it is another thing to say that the capacity of those who were presenting and what they felt they could provide to the authority at that meeting on 27 April was of such a standard.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Does the Deputy mean capacity in the sense that they did not have the professional capacity?

Ms Josephine Feehily

That never occurred to me.

I think it should have occurred to Ms Feehily.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Is it that they were not able to do a better job? Is that what the Deputy means?

Obviously, they were not when they did not-----

Ms Josephine Feehily

They did by September.

They should have done it by April.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not think there is a lack of capacity to do this kind of work.

Is it a lack of will?

Ms Josephine Feehily

There may be a lack of application of that capacity, of persistence and of bringing things to conclusions. Application of capacity is the best way I could describe it.

I have two very quick points to make. Ms Feehily spoke earlier on about when a clerk had to be appointed. I refer to the €26 million and ICT. As I said earlier, the Committee of Public Accounts would probably have more capacity to look at that than the Policing Authority. Obviously, the appointment of a clerk through the Policing Authority would have to go through a process. This is nothing to do with the Charleton tribunal but it is to do with the Charleton liaison committee. Was the Policing Authority consulted in any way about the hiring of any individuals in relation to that and should it have been?

Ms Josephine Feehily

I do not know, but by the time we became aware that it might have been the case, my understanding was that approval had been given. Bear in mind that our approval is us, followed by the Department of Justice and Equality followed by Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It is not us on our own. The first step had been missed and by the time I became aware of it, step two and three had happened.

I said the last day at the committee that I believe the protocols by which the Policing Authority meets with people, etc., and many in the committee have said the same, needs to be looked at. That is an honest comment to the witnesses. I am a supporter of the Policing Authority. My political party created it. We got some things right and some things wrong, which I will admit. Would the witnesses now consider meeting those two ladies, prior to the committee commencing its work, given what we all know in relation to their work?

Ms Josephine Feehily

The chief executive has written to the Commissioner and has pointed out to him that reviewing the evidence of the last two meetings here, it seems to us that the analysis service is not fully au fait with all the work we have done.

It seems to us that the analysis service is not fully au fait with all the work we have done and, if they wish, we would be happy to meet them, both Deputies and those involved in the homicide review.

Before we conclude, I will not go over all the issues we have addressed this morning, but I take the opportunity to refer to the committee report we published in December 2016. It noted that the Garda Síochána (Policing Authority Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2015 makes provision for the Policing Authority to appoint persons to the senior ranks of An Garda Síochána and that the regulations commencement order should be completed without further delay. Has all of that happened in respect of Garda appointments to all positions of senior rank?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes, to the levels that are provided in the Act, including superintendent, chief superintendent and assistant Commissioner ranks.

Has that been done?

Ms Josephine Feehily

Yes. We have appointed them.

Almost all. There is still a job of work.

Ms Josephine Feehily

What I mean is that not only have the regulations, to which the Chairman referred, been done, but we have run three competitions.

The statutory remit of the Policing Authority must be expanded to include the following function responsibility and I ask Ms Feehily to give me a "Yes" or "No" response to the following questions.

Ms Josephine Feehily

It is statutory.

It includes to supervise the functioning of the Garda Commissioner's office and supervise the discharge of functions by the Commissioner.

Ms Josephine Feehily

I understand there is a Bill before the Oireachtas but it has not been enacted.

It has not happened yet.

Ms Josephine Feehily

No.

It also includes to appoint, supervise and, where appropriate, discipline senior management within An Garda Síochána.

Ms Josephine Feehily

That needs a statutory change, so "No".

It further includes to establish policies or procedures for An Garda Síochána, including the issuing of policy directives.

Ms Josephine Feehily

That needs a statutory change.

It also includes to cause to be published and made accessible to the public all sections of the Garda code and Garda operational policies and procedures with certain exceptions.

Ms Josephine Feehily

Some progress has been made in this area, particularly in the context of the new website and a public-facing version of a policy they have produced arising from the homicide review.

It also includes to review the adequacy and appropriateness of the policies and procedures which underpin the operation of an effective policing service.

Ms Josephine Feehily

That is what we do all the time. We are doing that constantly and will continue to do so.

I know that was very rushed, for which I apologise, but I must run. I thank Ms Feehily and Ms Hall for coming before the committee and for addressing these important matters.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.15 p.m. until 9 a.m. on Wednesday, 18 April 2018.
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