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Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 11 Mar 2014

Repatriation of Irish Prisoners in the United Kingdom: Irish Council for Prisoners Overseas

On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome Ms Joanna Joyce and Fr. Gerry McFlynn to this meeting. I thank them for their attendance and for giving of their time. I ask everybody to turn off their mobile phones, completely, totally and utterly because they interfere with the sound system. I have received complaints from broadcasters who wished to hear what a member had sought to say but found the member's phone was interfering with the sound system and as a result, were unable to broadcast the member's comments on the day, which was terrible for the member.

Before we begin, I wish to draw the attention of all witnesses to the situation regarding privilege. I ask them to note they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Joyce to make an opening statement.

Ms Joanna Joyce

I thank the joint committee for the opportunity to make a presentation today on the issue of repatriation of prisoners in receipt of indeterminate sentences for public protection, IPP, in the United Kingdom. I represent the Maynooth office of the Irish Council for Prisoners Overseas, ICPO, and am accompanied by my colleague, Fr. Gerry McFlynn, from the ICPO's London office. The Irish Council for Prisoners Overseas is a charitable organisation that provides information and support to Irish prisoners overseas and their families. It was established in 1985 by the Irish Catholic Bishops Conference and at present, we work with more than 1,000 Irish prisoners worldwide. The majority of our clients are in the United Kingdom but we also have a significant number of clients throughout Europe and the United States. We also work with Irish prisoners in South and Central America, Africa, Asia and Australia. In the time allotted to us today, I will discuss briefly the issues surrounding the repatriation of IPP prisoners, while Fr. McFlynn will highlight the impact this is having on Irish prisoners in the United Kingdom.

The IPP sentence or indeterminate sentence for public protection was abolished by the United Kingdom's Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012. However, there will be no sentence conversion for those prisoners already serving an IPP sentence. We have been informed by the United Kingdom's National Offender Management Service that there currently are 55 Irish nationals serving IPP sentences in the United Kingdom. A number of these prisoners wish to apply for repatriation to Ireland but the Department of Justice and Equality does not at present accept repatriation applications from IPP-sentenced prisoners on the basis that there is no equivalent sentence under Irish law. This is something about which the ICPO is extremely concerned and we submitted a formal letter of concern to the Department of Justice and Equality in June 2013. The Transfer of Sentenced Persons Act makes reference to adapting a sentence where, by its legal nature or duration, it is not compatible with Irish law. The transfer legislation does not make any reference to converting a sentence but this is provided for by the Council of Europe Convention on the Transfer of Sentenced Persons. The ICPO is aware there may be some legal difficulty in respect of adapting an IPP sentence and asks that this be addressed as a matter of urgency in order that IPP-sentenced prisoners are eligible to apply for repatriation. Repatriation allows a prisoner to maintain close links with his or her family, which is extremely important to ensure effective resettlement and rehabilitation. Repatriation benefits the prisoner, his or her family, his or her community as a whole and Irish society in general. I thank members for their time and will now hand over to my colleague, Fr. McFlynn.

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

In common with Ms Joyce, I am thankful to the joint committee for the opportunity to address it today. As Ms Joyce already has pointed out, repatriation is extremely important for Irish prisoners who wish to serve their sentence closer to their families. It is universally accepted that maintaining family relationships during a period of imprisonment is vital for the well-being of offenders and their families. The ICPO is aware of approximately 15 Irish prisoners who are serving IPP sentences at present and who are interested in applying for repatriation. A number of these prisoners have close family ties in Ireland and in some cases, the only family ties they have are in Ireland. In the knowledge that they cannot apply for repatriation and may be obliged to remain in the United Kingdom on licence after their release, some prisoners are finding this to be a situation with which it is extremely difficult to cope.

A large part of my work in the London office entails visiting Irish prisoners throughout England and Wales. In this context, I can think of three people in particular that I have met recently, including one only last month. One prisoner, who has elderly parents back in County Mayo, is on a 17-year tariff, of which he has served three years and he has little or no chance of seeing his parents alive again. Another prisoner has all his family contacts back in Ireland, including a partner and children. A third has approximately five or six years of a sentence yet to serve but he already has lost his mother while in prison and his elderly father is seriously ill. The person I met last month in a prison in the south of England told me he now is entertaining suicidal ideas, largely because he believes he is facing a long sentence, will never see his family members back in Ireland again and that there is not much point in going around from prison to prison, as he basically is going nowhere. I was so concerned about the state in which I found him that I asked the chaplain afterwards to make sure that someone kept an eye on him.

I am really worried that some day, I will receive a telephone call from a prison informing me that one of these prisoners on an IPP has taken his own life. Then we all will be in trouble, having been made aware of the situation but having done nothing much to change it. I also am aware of anecdotal evidence to the effect that prisoners from other European countries have been repatriated to countries that also do not have IPP sentences. I have anecdotal evidence for this and it has been confirmed by people in the United Kingdom as well. I thank the joint committee for providing me with this opportunity to make a few introductory remarks on this issue. I hope this issue will be taken seriously and will be dealt with as urgently as possible.

I thank Fr. McFlynn and call on Deputy Corcoran Kennedy.

I thank both witnesses for their attendance. Ms Joyce mentioned that 55 prisoners were serving IPP sentences in the United Kingdom. What is the breakdown in respect of gender, ages and the type of crimes for which they are in prison?

Ms Joanna Joyce

We do not have that information to hand but certainly can seek to find it out and provide it to the joint committee at a later date. Although I must check, I assume the majority are male as nearly all of our clients are male prisoners. Other than that, I am afraid I cannot provide any specific information at this time.

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

The vast majority are male. There are very few female prisoners in the prison estate, even though the female prison population in England and Wales is on the increase. Most of the men are over 25 and are in prison for a variety of offences.

Do the witnesses want us to propose a change in legislation? Is it to set up a system whereby we can have people back? The Department of Justice and Equality says we cannot deal with it because of a deficiency.

Ms Joanna Joyce

Yes, but first we hope to find out about the legal issue. We have received no formal notification of what it is. We hope for the committee's assistance on this point. We would like to be part of the conversation on how to resolve the issue. We hope legislative change is not necessary and perhaps there is a practical solution to the problem. Until we know exactly what the issue is, we cannot address that. We hope for the committee's assistance in finding a workable solution.

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

We are not talking about a large number of people. Initially, people were under the impression that the Irish prison system would be swamped by scores of people but it amounts to a handful of people to whom it would make a massive difference. I cannot stress strongly enough that while we are punishing prisoners by keeping them in this position we are also punishing family members.

Did Fr. McFlynn mention that 15 people are interested at the moment?

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

Yes, about 15.

I welcome the Irish Council for Prisoners Overseas to the committee. I commend the organisation for its valuable work. In a previous life, I worked closely with it. I do not know if Nuala Kelly is still around. At the beginning, I worked on cases concerning miscarriages of justice, including the Guildford Four and the Birmingham Six in the 1980s. I know the valuable work of the organisation.

The witnesses referred to the immediate need for 15 Irish prisoners to be repatriated.

Ms Joanna Joyce

We are aware of 12 to 15 prisoners who have expressed to us their interest in applying for repatriation. Of that number, a handful may meet the criteria and be eligible. Very few people are repatriated to Ireland each year so it is unlikely that all 15 are eligible.

It could be as small as six or seven prisoners.

Ms Joanna Joyce

Absolutely.

That is not a huge issue. I was very surprised to hear about the number of prisoners, some 1,054, in prisons abroad. It is a very high figure for a small country. Why did the witnesses say this figure could be even higher?

Ms Joanna Joyce

We can only go by the number of prisoners we are in contact with. We assume there are other Irish prisoners out there who, for whatever reason, are not in contact with our service. Perhaps they are not aware of our service or they choose not to contact us. The figure is quite high but we also work with second-generation Irish so anyone entitled to Irish citizenship receives our support. That explains why it is such a high number.

There were seven prisoners in Central America and South America in 2013. Is the Irish Council for Prisoners Overseas in direct contact with those prisoners and their families in Ireland?

Ms Joanna Joyce

The figure has gone down to four. Our figures change on a frequent basis because people come in and out of prison. At the moment we are working with four Irish prisoners in South America and Central America. We are not in contact with all of their families as some families do not wish to have our support. We are in direct contact with those clients.

As soon as someone is locked up abroad, do the prison services inform the Irish Council for Prisoners Overseas or does the organisation go looking for people?

Ms Joanna Joyce

It comes about in a variety of ways. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the embassies and consulates are good at informing people of our service. We work closely with them on a daily basis with many of these cases. In the UK, many prisoners become aware of us from other Irish prisoners and sometimes families will find information about our organisation on the Internet and may get in contact with us. Through a wide variety of ways, we become involved in people's cases.

The Irish Council for Prisoners Overseas was involved in the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four cases many years ago. Of the 1,054 prisoners, does the council have concerns or suspicions about blatant miscarriage of justice in England, Scotland or South America?

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

It is a difficult question. We always have our suspicions but that will be a bigger problem in the future for prisoners. From 1 April, legal aid will be withdrawn in the UK so prisoners will find it difficult to get legal aid to take cases. There are no outstanding cases such as the Birmingham Six or Guildford Four cases that we know about at the present time. Having said that, there are cases we have suspicions about from time to time.

With regard to the size of the population, Irish prisoners now constitute the second largest ethnic group in the prison system in England and Wales, marginally behind Polish prisoners. The figure is higher than what Joanna made it out to be. I visited a Birmingham prison two weeks ago and I found six prisoners who were not known to us. They were not on our database and that is just from one prison. The figure is probably a lot higher than we are saying.

With regard to administration and funding of the Irish Council for Prisoners Overseas, is it totally funded by the Catholic Church or does it receive some funding from the Department of Justice and Equality?

Ms Joanna Joyce

We receive State funding from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade through the emigrant support programme.

Is the organisation okay within its existing resources?

Ms Joanna Joyce

We are. Our caseload is always a challenge and there is a high workload for the number of staff but we receive good support from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

Does the organisation have a good working relationship with the Department to Foreign Affairs and Trade?

Ms Joanna Joyce

Yes, absolutely, we have a very good working relationship.

It has a very good track record and I commend it for that. I have experience of that from dealing with prisoners.

I thank Ms Joyce and Fr. McFlynn for coming in. I met them last year on this issue. I am delighted they could make the presentation today. The imprisonment for public protection sentence was abolished by the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 for future offences but it does not apply to people already serving sentences. What is the crime they have been convicted of? How serious is the crime?

I presume the Irish Council for Prisoners Overseas has tried to put pressure on the UK Government to change the law and include people currently serving imprisonment for public protection sentences before it was abolished. I heard first-hand about the individual cases and it is heartbreaking for people so far away from home. Fr. McFlynn referred to someone in Mayo, which is not the same as being in Dublin and flying over or getting the boat over. It is a long distance and it is worrying that people are suffering from depression. Things could be much better if they were allowed to transfer home. There is no comparable legislation here, which is the point made by the Department of Justice and Equality. Perhaps the committee can examine this matter.

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

They can be imprisoned for a variety of offences, some of which are more serious than others. I have met many prisoners who are on imprisonment for public protection sentences with a two-year tariff. One wonders about the severity of that.

To be clear, the tariff is the minimum amount to be served.

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

The tariff is the minimum amount a prisoner must serve before he or she meets the parole board, which makes the ultimate decision about release.

If the term is "indeterminate", does that mean there is no limit?

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

Yes. I have met people who were given a two-year tariff and ten years later they were still in prison. To take that example, after two years the parole board would meet and decide on the single criterion of risk, or whether the prisoner poses a risk to him- or herself or the public. Beyond that there is no interest, and the board would not even be interested in what else the prisoner has done for a number of years, except if he or she has been doing courses. Many of the prisoners are in prisons where the courses required by the parole board are unavailable. They must move around prisons, which lengthens the process.

I was asked whether we put any pressure on the British authorities, but there is no point in doing so because they have made it very clear to me, and the first secretary at the Irish Embassy in London, that when the imprisonment for public protection sentence was abolished in December 2012, the process would not be retrospective. When I asked the obvious question about what would happen to people serving a sentence, I was told very clearly by the senior official in the British Home Office that they would be the responsibility of the parole board, which is what I feared would happen. These prisoners will have to satisfy the parole board with a view to getting released, which can take a very long time.

Ms Joanna Joyce

With regard to repatriation, the UK authorities have informed us they have no difficulty repatriating IPP prisoners, and the difficulty lies entirely on the Irish side.

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

That was made very clear to me. It was said that the problem was in Dublin, not London.

I wonder how many UK prisoners are in Ireland. Could there be some kind of transfer programme? I am a very strong believer in sentencing, and a life sentence should mean life rather than just 12 or 15 years. In Ireland the minimum sentence for certain crimes should be increased, but that is a different day's work. It has been mentioned that there are 12 or 15 IPP prisoners stuck over there. We should do much more work on this.

Does IPP mean "imprisonment for public protection"?

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

It is indeterminate sentencing for public protection.

The idea is that these prisoners are still deemed a risk to society so they cannot be let out. Has the process been changed?

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

No more IPP sentences are given. The process was challenged by three British prisoners who challenged the legality of it in Europe. It was not found to be illegal but it was found to be unfair. The prisoners argued that they were being asked to do courses to satisfy the parole board but the courses were unavailable in the prisons they were being moved to.

When the prisoners are released, does it happen under licence?

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

They are released on licence. The fact that they are life sentence prisoners means they cannot be moved back here.

That is the reason.

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

They cannot win either way. Even if prisoners satisfied the parole board after two, four or six years, they would be on licence in the UK and Irish authorities would not take them back.

I thank Ms Joyce and Fr. McFlynn for coming before us. This is not really an area in which I had a great deal of knowledge so I thank them for the correspondence, which I read with interest. I did some research this morning on IPP, as it is the main stumbling block for the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Department of Justice and Equality. If individuals are determined to be too dangerous to be released following sentences in the UK, what kinds of crime are involved? The witnesses mentioned a dozen or so individuals eligible for repatriation in what I presume is another arrangement with the UK or other countries. We must be specific as we are talking about a tiny minority who in this instance are imprisoned in Britain.

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

These are people serving sentences for serious offences; nobody is imprisoned in the UK or elsewhere for good behaviour. The offences range from murder to manslaughter to armed robbery and rape. There are also minor offences involved, as there is a sliding scale regarding the nature of offences. Having said that, if somebody is given a two-year tariff for an IPP, one would wonder how serious is the offence.

What is a minor offence when we are talking about imprisonment for public protection?

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

There is not a minor offence in that instance. People are given an IPP sentence for something deemed by the courts to be serious. That being the case, the people in question are given a programme of courses to do in order to rehabilitate them and help them pass through the prison system in such a way that they can change their lifestyle when they emerge. We have mentioned a couple of times that many prisons do not provide these courses. With the cutbacks happening now, there will be fewer of these courses available.

What has the British Government stated about the level of services available to these prisoners being moved around? Why are they being moved around and why are they being given courses to complete when they clearly cannot fulfil the process? Why is that being brought up in Dáil Éireann?

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

It is a British problem related to the prison service. The system in England and Wales is undergoing enormous change, and there are more changes to take place in the next 12 months in the prison system in England and Wales than have taken place in the past 15 years. The first part relates to the configuration of prisons, as many smaller prisons are being closed, larger prisons are being built and there is also the business of privatising the prison sector. That means there will be the equivalent to American "Titan" prisons, which are large enough to accommodate 1,500 or 2,000 prisoners. The prisoners are being moved further from home and kept in prisons where they will be just a number rather than a person. Many of the prisons will be run by the private sector. It is no accident that the three largest prisons currently in England and Wales are in the private sector. That is the way the sector is going.

This is a British problem so perhaps we should not be discussing it here. It is nonetheless having a serious impact on Irish prisoners, the same as everybody else. With regard to the seriousness of the offences, there are 5,800 prisoners currently on IPP sentences in England and Wales. It is a British problem and they are having to deal with it as best they can, although it seems they are not able to deal with it very well. This is not helped by the fact that the privatisation of prisons is continuing apace and their configuration is changing as well. The cutbacks in legal aid will also affect people, as will the outsourcing of the probation service to the private sector. The prison system in England and Wales is now a business, with the emphasis on making money.

Ms Joanna Joyce

The question regarding crimes is very fair and the committee needs to consider it. It is always preferable for an offender to serve a sentence in an area where they have family ties. If people return to Ireland after being released from prison, it would be much better for them to serve a sentence here and be released into a community where they have social supports. As the Deputy is aware, it is Government policy that a prisoner should always be able to serve a sentence close to family where it is possible. The crime issue, while important, does not affect a right to apply for repatriation or the need for same.

I have a further question.

I would have very firm views on the privatisation of the Prison Service but that is not going to happen here any time soon. In terms of the human rights element of the incarceration, in order for somebody to face a parole board they are not able to meet the criteria set out because of the nature of the facilities in which they are being housed. Is there a human rights infringement there, aside from a British or an Irish one, and is there an international human rights element that the council might be considering? My next question is not necessarily in regard to IPP but about some of the more exotic locations where Irish citizens are currently imprisoned. Are there any questions in regard to their human rights, specifically on the quality of the prisons and-or the living environment in which they are housed? I would imagine that a Catholic organisation would be extremely interested and involved in that process in other countries. Perhaps the delegates would like to respond.

Ms Joanna Joyce

Absolutely, there is arguably a human rights issue for those prisoners who are being detained and asked to fulfil criteria that they cannot possibly fulfil. I think it is that reverse burden that actually led to the IPP sentence being abolished, that prisoners had taken that case themselves, as Fr. McFlynn said, to the European Court which said that was not legitimate. Obviously that is an issue about which we would be concerned. As Fr. McFlynn said that legal aid is now being abolished. Many of the prisoners who would have taken cases on the basis of these issues may not now be in a position to take cases. That is something else we are working on and are concerned about. I agree there is a human rights issue there, a much broader issue that we need to look at in more detail.

In regard to the human rights of Irish prisoners in areas such as South and Central America and in Asia, specifically, we would be very concerned for prisoners in those locations. Prison conditions can be extremely poor. Many of our clients there might have limited access to food and water, basic necessities, medical and dental treatment. We have clients who suffer serious health problems as a result of the prison conditions. Safety is obviously a major cause of concern. We have some clients in prisons where there are no guards within the prison; they are guarded from the outside. I think everyone is familiar with those type of prisons in South and Central America. We are very concerned about that and it is an issue we are always working on for those clients. As Deputy McGrath said earlier, the Department of Foreign Affairs is absolutely fantastic and does a wonderful job, in particular the embassies and consulars responsible for people in those locations, but it is always a struggle. One of the things we do is provide financial support for prisoners in these locations. They need that financial support to buy food and water. In some prisons they might have to rent their cell or rent a mattress - all of those extreme things. We are extremely involved in those cases in South and Central America and Asia.

That is an eye-watering description of prisons. We have seen scenes like that in the movies but I do not necessarily think the general public is aware how bad it is in certain places. My last question which is on costs is possibly the reason a decision has not been made by the Irish Government to repatriate certain prisoners. If there are certain individuals in the UK, in particular, for whom it has been determined unsafe for them to be released and we are potentially talking about repatriating them to a country that does not have similar laws - admittedly it has been rescinded in the UK, but as Fr. McFlynn said there are 5,500 still imprisoned for public protection tariffs - what is the position? If, for argument sake, an individual who is currently serving an IPP sentence is repatriated to Ireland, how long would that person serve, or who decides; would it be the parole board? What I am trying to ascertain is how the British authorities would determine how long to recommend to the Irish Prison Service or the Irish courts system if the individual is being repatriated and, dare I say it, who would bear the cost? If a person commits a crime in a foreign jurisdiction obviously that jurisdiction would bear the cost of the imprisonment. I have an anecdotal figure which I will not mention, as I am not sure if it is correct, but the cost of detaining a person in prison on an annual basis is not a small amount. I understand we are talking about a small number of people and their human rights. I fully understand and recognise the importance of repatriating a person to bring him or her closer to his or her family for the purposes of rehabilitation. However, I would have a concern that we might be opening a door. I accept fully what Fr. McFlynn said about the number being very small but I would still have a concern.

Does Fr. McFlynn wish to respond?

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

The majority of the prisoners have partners and families in the UK so many of them would not be interested in being repatriated. As to what would happen with prisoners coming back to Ireland, that would be a matter for the Irish Prison Service. The British authorities would not be in a position, given that it no longer issues IPP sentences, to dictate to anybody here how long a person would have to serve. It would really be a matter for the Irish Prison Service to decide whether to keep them for a limited period or to release them.

Just to follow on from Deputy Alan Farrell, I understand that in the normal course of events if a prisoner is sent from one jurisdiction to another, and it works both ways, that he or she finishes out the sentence in the jurisdiction where he or she ends up. If it was a five year sentence here and the person was sent over after two years the person would serve the following three years in prison in their own country. That is the international agreement that I understand exists. The difference here is that when the tariff time is completed and the person is still in prison in Britain because it has been deemed unsafe to release them and they are sent to Ireland, we cannot lock them up because the tariff is completed. If a person is sent here after the tariff time is completed they are virtually being freed, while at the same the British authorities would have deemed it unsafe to release them because of the public protection approach. Is that where we are at?

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

I think that is the crux of the problem. The problem with that from the prisoner's point of view is that he or she has to satisfy the parole board and that is what keeps the situation going on indefinitely.

If, for instance, a prisoner is taken from the UK to Ireland, and is released on to the streets of Ireland, and we find that person is not safe and commits a crime or kills somebody, where does that leave us? How can we ensure that will not happen? If the British authorities say a person is not safe and yet we cannot lock him or her up because their tariff is completed, how can we handle that issue?

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

Exactly, there is a problem there. One way around it might be to decide that the person serve their licence here, that the person would be under licence in the same way as they normally would be if the parole board were to release them in Britain.

Would that mean that they would have to spend a certain amount of time in prison here first in order that it could be determined whether they could be safely released?

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

It may well be but it would be up to the Irish authorities to decide that.

That may mean a change of legislation here.

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

It may well come to that.

Ms Joanna Joyce

Can I just say that the legislation provides that a sentence can be adapted? As I mentioned, the Council of Europe convention provides for the conversion of a sentence. As I do not know the particular legal issue I am not sure if that is something that could be amended to specifically allow for this situation but we would hope the sentence could be adapted to a sentence for an equivalent offence under Irish law. Obviously we will have equivalent offences and, therefore, there should be some facility to adapt the sentence. Perhaps I can get back to the question on costs. Costs is an issue that needs to be taken into account. Under the transfer legislation, cost is not an issue that is mentioned and I do not think that should be a bar to people having the right to apply for repatriation. Irish citizens should be entitled to apply for transfer to an Irish prison if they meet the criteria. I would not like costs to be a bar to that.

How many British prisoners would be repatriated to Britain every year from Ireland? Is there an equivalence back to here?

Fr. Gerry McFlynn

I do not know.

We can check that out.

Ms Joanna Joyce

A recent article refers to 80 British prisoners in Ireland. I could be wrong about it but I imagine the number is much lower. Given the different prison populations, I am not sure how it tallies.

I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee and engaging with it on this topic. We will reflect on what the witnesses said and what we will do about it.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.30 p.m sine die.
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