The purpose of this part of the meeting is to have an engagement with Ms Emily Logan, who is the chief commissioner-designate of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. On behalf of the joint committee, I thank Ms Logan for her attendance here today. I will invite Ms Logan to make a brief opening statement, which will be followed by a question and answer session with members. Before we begin, I draw Ms Logan's attention to the fact that witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to this committee. However, if they are directed to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity, by name or in such as way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should also be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or persons outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Ms Logan to make her opening statement.
Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission: Commissioner Designate
Ms Emily Logan
I am delighted to have been asked to address the committee regarding my nomination as chief commissioner of an enhanced commission, which brings together the Irish Human Rights Commission and the Equality Authority. I will touch on how my experience and background as Ombudsman for Children, as well as the manner of my nomination for the position of chief commissioner, could provide positive models for public appointments and the independent operation of statutory agencies more generally. I will note some of the upcoming priorities and milestones for the commission in the immediate and medium terms, which will be important to ensure the Commission's ability to operate independently and in full compliance with the UN Paris principles and effectively operationalise its broad range of enhanced legislative functions.
Having in place an effective human rights and equality architecture in Ireland is an important requirement of the Good Friday Agreement. More fundamentally, the human rights and equality infrastructure comprises a crucial institutional element of the commitment by the State to uphold the "dignity and freedom" of every individual under our Constitution and the diverse range of international, European Union and Council of Europe human rights and equality treaties Ireland has agreed to be bound by. In undertaking their separate mandates, the Equality Authority and the Irish Human Rights Commission have played important roles in the protection of the rights of some of the most vulnerable groups in Irish society. In recent years, the human rights and equality infrastructure has undoubtedly faced considerable difficulties. This occurred at a time when the financial crisis and austerity measures created hardship for people in a way that raises pressing questions of human rights, justice and equality. In what I believe is a departure from this challenging period and a fresh start for the new commission, I am extremely pleased and honoured to have been nominated as chief commissioner of a new commission.
I would like to take this opportunity to clarify one aspect of a press release that was sent out yesterday. I would like to respectfully mention that today's meeting is not a confirmation hearing, that the commission is not a State board and that this is not a ministerial appointment. I ask the committee to forgive me for being so explicit but it is important, in the context of the current public debate, for people to understand what is happening here today.
My nomination as chief commissioner follows an open competition. It was a transparent and rigorous process run by the Public Appointments Service and it included a series of two separate interviews by a group of international experts in the area of human rights and equality. This process, coupled with the appointment of the existing members of the commission by an independent selection panel, marks a significant change from previous practice for the appointment of the commission. The final stage of the appointment of the commission will follow a resolution by the Houses of the Oireachtas and President Higgins will formally appoint the 15 member commission. Crucially, not least given the ways in which public appointments have dominated public and political debate in recent weeks, I believe the transparent nature of this process is of critical importance to establishing the credibility of the new body with members of the public and the diverse range of various stakeholders, including statutory agencies and civil society. I am eager that the legislative foundation of an independent appointment process will be mirrored by a constructive and positive relationship and engagement between the commission and the Department of Justice and Equality. I am pleased to report that I have had a very positive meeting with the Minister for Justice and Equality who has assured me of her support for the commission and with whom members of the commission will meet later this month.
As Ombudsman for Children and an independent officer of the State for the past ten years, my relationship with the Department of Health and subsequently the Department of Children and Youth Affairs was very positive and there was no interference whatsoever with the independence of my office. I fully expect a similar relationship with the Department of Justice and Equality in my role as chief commissioner and I am confident, having met with senior officials, that this can be achieved through investment in a respectful working relationship.
I wish to underline the importance of the independent functioning of the commission as the Minister and the Department consider their implementation of the recommendations of the Toland report. While this report contains many important recommendations for the improved functioning and transparency of the Department, I am concerned that the calls for enhanced oversight and governance of external organisations should take account of the enhanced independence provided for in the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act. The new commission will have its own Oireachtas Vote in 2015 and will be accountable through its director, the Accounting Officer, to the Committee of Public Accounts. In addition, it will be accountable for its statutory functions through its annual report to the Oireachtas, thereby making the commission effectively accountable to the Oireachtas. This is a further significant and welcome departure from the previous legislative framework and it is vital that the developments arising from the Toland report should not undermine these positive developments.
This leads me to the upcoming renewal of the accreditation of the commission as Ireland's national human rights institution under the UN Paris Principles by the international co-ordinating committee, which determines access to UN committees. I will work hard as chief commissioner to ensure that the new commission will be accredited as an A-status national human rights institution as a matter of priority under the UN Paris Principles and will remain a strong and active member of the European network of national human rights institutions. In a recent resolution on national human rights institutions in its September session, it is noteworthy that the UN Human Rights Council recalled the "importance of financial and administrative independence and the stability of national human rights institutions". The council noted that national human rights institutions should not face any form of reprisal or intimidation, including political pressure or unjustifiable budgetary limitations, as a result of performing their mandates. I am eager to ensure that the commission is granted A-status accreditation and to demonstrate that with the new legislative framework, including the independent appointment of the commission, the Irish Government is beginning a new chapter in its relationship with its national human rights institution, which could potentially act as a model for what is required by the UN Paris Principles.
As chief commissioner, I am eager to develop the links between the commission and the various Oireachtas committees by ensuring that the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC, regularly meets with parliamentary committees as it undertakes its legislative functions. In particular, the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission has recommended, in the context of its observations on the 2014 Act, that on the parliamentary side a dedicated committee be established to examine equality and human rights matters with structural links to other committees. While this recommendation has not yet been taken up, I believe that such a parliamentary committee is key to further embedding a culture of human rights and equality within the political processes of law-making within the State. The commission would be very eager to collaborate with and inform the work of such a committee. Of particular interest to committee members may be that the relationship between national human rights and equality institutions and parliaments has been elaborated upon in 2012 within the international Belgrade Principles.
I thank the committee for its attention. We very much welcome the opportunity to engage on a regular basis with this committee. I have been in this job for only five days but I can assure the committee members that the feedback I received from individual commissioners has been very positive. They know they are supported by this committee and they are excited that we are operating in a jurisdiction with a cross-parliamentary committee and individuals who are committed to the human rights and equality agenda.
I thank Ms Logan for her interesting contribution. The commissioners engaged with us on their appointments as there was an issue relating to how they were to be appointed. It was very important that the Executive be seen to be at arm's length in the process. This all-party Oireachtas committee undertook to meet the commissioners designate and we were very impressed with them - at the time we said we "gave them fair wind". We have had positive interactions with the commissioners and their predecessors on numerous occasions.
Ms Logan mentioned a parliamentary committee designated for human rights issues and this is something Senator Zappone has raised here. I think I can speak for all committee members when I say we are interested in the proposal and are working to progress it. The idea is that this committee would become a new committee and change its name to the committee on justice, human rights, equality and defence. That is Senator Zappone's proposal and it has been discussed here on numerous occasions. The issue is how committees will interact and this was touched on by Ms Logan in terms of structural links - we have examined this too. It is a work in progress and we may seek advice from the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission.
Ms Emily Logan
I welcome the Chairman's proposal.
I welcome Ms Logan to the committee and I appreciate the fact that, as she points out, her appointment came as the result of an open, transparent and rigorous competition process that was overseen by independent international experts in human rights and equality. This is how all public appointments should be made.
How will Ms Logan make an impact? She spoke of austerity measures and the financial crisis and much hardship was created, raising pressing questions on human rights, justice and equality. Is the current climate making things very difficult in the area of human rights and equality?
Ms Emily Logan
As Ombudsman for Children for the past ten years, my experience, in terms of the public appetite for change, was that the Irish people are very interested in issues of fairness and social justice. Regardless of the political context, the public context is important. I feel the commission must bring human rights to life in a way that connects with communities - my most recent experience as Ombudsman for Children was working with the Roma community on the inquiry into the two children who were taken into care. It is clear to me that some communities have no idea that human rights exist or that there is an equality framework. We have much to do on promoting awareness and an understanding of human rights but there is a greater public appetite for social justice in Ireland since 2008.
The commission has much work to do to connect with the public and let them know the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission exists. People need to know that there are occasions when the commission can assist. There is a strong legislative framework and some new statutory functions. The commission is very interested in the positive duty described in section 42 of the Act as this is a new and welcome provision. The legislation provides a new articulation of statutory powers and it features the word "encouragement". The spirit of the legislation has changed - it wants to be connected. I want the commission to connect with the Irish public to enable people to understand what is a violation of human rights.
We have seen historically that it has taken some victims of abuse or mistreatment years to even fully understand that they have been mistreated. I am very keen that the commission should be active in educating the public about and in promoting human rights.
The second part of the Deputy's question related to human rights. There has been a focus on the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, ICCPR. We are about to enter into a new phase of international monitoring and the UN Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights will be beginning its process in early December. Representatives from the commission will attend a pre-sessional hearing with that committee. I assure the Deputy that the commission will not be shying away from issues relating to economic, cultural and social rights. What I can say is that ours is a 15-member commission and it is still early days. It is difficult, from a thematic point of view, to bring priorities to the table today because we have only entered into a very early stage of developing our first strategy. What I am mainly doing, therefore, is talking about a way of working and an expression of intent by the commission in terms of how it is going carry out its work.
Is Ms Logan of the view that part of the commission's job is to change public attitudes to human rights and equality issues? I would argue that we have a long way to go in this regard, particularly in view of recent events. I refer here to our attitude to members of the Traveller or Roma communities or to how we treat immigrants. We must move forward and change people's attitudes. Will the commission have a role to play in the context of bringing about that change? Many people are hostile to certain minorities in the State.
Ms Emily Logan
In light of my experience during the past ten years, I share that view. We have a long way to go. My experience in the past ten years is that much of what the Deputy describes relates to a lack of information, education and, perhaps, understanding. The commission has a great deal to do and it will be making a significant contribution. I also want to work with civil society. My experience is that one does not sit in one's ivory tower and hope that the position in respect of human rights will change. That will not happen unless we mobilise the support of civil society, the members of which often have very direct relationships, particularly with marginalised communities. The members of such communities may never hear about the commission unless it works through and with civil society.
I thank Ms Logan.
In her former role, Ms Logan reached out to children and communities in an extremely positive and proactive way. It will be important that this continues to be the case in the context of her new role.
Ms Emily Logan
There is absolutely no reason that model cannot be replicated for adults.
It will also be important to disseminate information with regard to the role of the commission, particularly so that citizens will be aware of what it will be doing and discover how they can learn from, achieve and benefit from its valuable work. I call Senator Zappone.
In light of the fact that she needs to leave, does Senator Bacik wish to make a comment now?
I apologise to the Chair and Ms Logan for the fact that I arrived late and that I am obliged to leave again. I wish Ms Logan good luck in her new role and commend her on the great and excellent work she did as Ombudsman for Children. Many Members of the Oireachtas have made use of the reports she produced in her former role and we look forward to working with her in her new capacity.
Ms Emily Logan
I thank the Senator.
It is wonderful to welcome Ms Logan. I thank her for attending. A collective "Yay" was uttered - most appropriately - when we heard about her appointment. She described the process relating to her appointment in her presentation, which was both independent and very different from those which obtained in the past. She also outlined her concern with regard to the Toland report and whether it will have implications for the way in which the commission is viewed in the context of its independence. I agree with her in this regard and I hope what she referred to does not prove to be the case. Having walked very carefully through the legislative process when the Bill was being debated, I am of the view that the commission's independence has been strengthened considerably and that what has been done will provide the basis for an A status.
My first question relates to the challenge of bringing together the two cultures which obtained within the Equality Authority and the Irish Human Rights Commission and among their staff. Does Ms Logan have some thoughts on the challenges which might arise in this regard and how the new commission might rise to them?
Ms Emily Logan
I hope the Senator will forgive me for involving her in some of the quasi-executive issues but, to be frank, while people have been discussing the merger of two institutions, my observation is that the commission is almost like a start-up. There were only 12 staff at the commission when I was nominated in July, whereas we now have 22. Our expectation is that we will have an agreed ceiling of 47. The Senator is correct: there are two different cultures. Having met both sets of staff, I am aware that they are very keen to advance and become the staff of the new Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. I do not want to pretend that the past did not happen. I was surprised when I met some of the staff, particularly those from the Equality Authority, and discovered how demoralised they felt as a result of events in recent years. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the resilience of the staff who stayed with the Equality Authority and who have agreed to transfer to the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. The reality is that I have joined an organisation which needs to be uplifted and given a sense of vision, future, working together and pride. The staff are very proud of the work they did within both institutions. However, it has been a difficult few years and I have no wish to deny that.
In terms of bringing together conceptually the cultures of human rights and equality, the latter has traditionally been articulated as a negative obligation in the sense that it is the State's duty not to discriminate against particular groups. The positive duty allows an interaction between public bodies, in particular, and the commission. In my previous role as Ombudsman for Children, I gained experience in trying to encourage people. The word "encourage" is used on a number of occasions in section 10 of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act 2014. On the basis of the well-established foundations the Irish Human Rights Commission and the Equality Authority have already laid, I would like to develop a really positive relationship with public bodies with regard to trying to bring them with us in the context of the human rights and equality agenda in order to ensure that when citizens interact with them, their experience will be one of being treated with humanity and dignity.
I just want to be frank and inform the committee that we have a great deal of work to do. We do not have as many staff as we need and there is much recruitment to be done. We will be moving to a new premises that will include staff offices and also a participation space. The building will have a street frontage and will be accessible to the public. We will invite groups in and interact directly with rights holders. The commission will be both active and interactive. It is fair to state that Senator Zappone recognises that it has not been an easy time for anybody who has served with either of the bodies prior to the establishment of the new commission. However, the people who are with me now want to stay and are very committed to working for the new Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission.
I thank Ms Logan.
We have received a request from the members of the press to release Ms Logan's opening statement. Would that be in order?
Ms Emily Logan
Of course.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
Ms Emily Logan
I apologise to the Chairman. I was not sure whether I had to agree to its release or whether it was the committee.
That is no problem.
My final question relates to something the Chairman stated earlier in respect of the committee's consideration of the possibility of including human rights within its remit, adding reference to the latter in its name and taking a specific role in this area. The Chairman has been extremely supportive and he and I met a number of commissioners designate during the earliest stages of the current process to explore the possibilities in this regard. In that context, I wish to refer to a couple of the functions the committee would be seeking to have conferred upon it if it were to be given a human rights mandate. We have put forward a proposal on this matter and, as the Chairman indicated, it is currently before the Houses. I would welcome it if Ms Logan were to comment on any of the specific aspects of that proposal in terms of the functions involved, which include to review and scrutinise legislation for any human rights issues; to report back to the Dáil in time for its report in order to influence the process; to, perhaps, advise the Dail and other committees in respect of human rights; to receive petitions from third parties; and to conduct hearings into human rights matters. What we are seeking is to have a human rights mandate added to this committee's remit rather than the establishment of a new human rights committee. Perhaps Ms Logan might comment on this issue.
Ms Logan has indicated her welcome of that. Does she have any more comments to make on it?
Ms Emily Logan
The UN Human Rights Council, in its recent resolution, indicated different methodologies in terms of relationships between national human rights institutions and parliaments. This committee has demonstrated its interest in human rights and equality. I have not discussed this with my commissioners so I am giving the Senator my own answer on this. It would be great to see the Irish Parliament extend the remit of this committee to include human rights and equality. One of the dangers of limiting it to a committee, a point which the Senator has addressed, is the question of interaction with other committees. In defining the role for one committee, we do not want to box it in a sense that other committees do not see human rights and equality as a cross-cutting theme underpinning any of their work. Certainly, the positive duty provided for in the new Act is encouraging all public bodies to consider human rights and equality compliance.
The UN committee mentioned, in its concluding observations, that it would be very useful for the Oireachtas to debate the issue. From the commission's point of view, it would be a welcome opportunity. We want the Irish Parliament to see the commission as a resource. I know that we are in a lucky situation. My two colleagues in Northern Ireland and Scotland only yesterday sent out press releases expressing concern about the repeal of the Human Rights Act in the UK and the possible undermining in Northern Ireland of the Belfast Agreement. We are in a happy position in Ireland that we have an open-minded Parliament whose Members want to engage with this broader human rights and equality agenda. Certainly, there is a greater public appetite for that engagement.
I thank Ms Logan for that response and I have one further comment.
An argument could be made that when legislation comes before all the committees, they are already implicitly reviewing it from a human rights perspective and the question could be asked why we are making a big deal about this. An example would be when Ireland goes before a particular UN committee in terms of a convention, as happened recently in terms of civil and political rights, and there is no formal engagement by the Oireachtas Members in that process. It is usually done by a particular Department bringing together information from other Departments and then the Minister goes in front of the committee. Legislators have not participated in that process, which is the reason we decided in the Seanad Public Consultation Committee to engage as legislators to look specifically at that committee and send a report from the legislators to it. That is an example of where such a review is not happening and law-makers are not engaging in an explicit way in a review of our obligations under UN conventions. Perhaps that is happening a little more in terms of the constitutional obligations but in terms of international treaties there is a big gap. This is why we are pursing it.
Ms Emily Logan
On debates that may happen in other parliamentary committees, it is important we do not define human rights and equality to the extent of the exclusion of, for example, the issue of social housing in debates in other committees. The issue of housing is a fundamental human right. As we develop as a commission, as we educate and hopefully contribute towards building capacity, the terminology of human rights and equality may not be used but the issues are human rights issues. It would be welcome for the committee to consider extending its capacity beyond the reach of this committee.
I congratulate Ms Logan on her appointment. In terms of the presentation by the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission to the UN Human Rights Committee, Ms Logan referenced the views of that committee, and I followed that with a great deal of interest. She suggested that we probably should have a dedicated debate on that in this Parliament because what we are talking about here is our international human rights reputation. Our committee should discuss making the call that we have a parliamentary debate on that.
Traveller ethnicity was one of the issues raised. Our committee has produced a report and recommended that the State recognise the ethnicity of the Traveller community. I would like to get Ms Logan's thoughts on that and what she plans to do in her role in the time ahead.
Ms Emily Logan
The Irish Human Rights Commission has welcomed the work of this committee and is supportive of the position of ethnicity for Travellers. It is in the concluding observations of the ICCPR committee. It is an issue that has been collectively agreed upon. There is consensus in terms of human rights and equality for the recognition of ethnicity of Travellers. That is why these issues need to be brought for debate to the Parliament. It has been a recommendation of the ICCPR and it is worth pursuing.
Deputy Mac Lochlainn was rapporteur in the production that report, which has been laid before both Houses, and we expect there will be a debate on it in both Houses in due course.
My next question relates to the direct provision system. Ms Logan has raised this issue and I am sure she will have noted that there has been a marked increase in focus on it in Parliament. It was the subject of a Private Members' motion last week that extended over two nights. It appears we are nearing the point where, collectively, everybody is agreed that this system needs to change dramatically. I would like to hear Ms Logan's thoughts on that system.
Ms Logan will know that the former Ombudsman, Emily O'Reilly, would have asked that the asylum seeker system and the prison system would be under that office's jurisdiction and the new Ombudsman, Peter Tyndall, has also called for that. This fits into Ms Logan's recommendation that various committees in the Oireachtas work together on human rights and equality. For example, in this case it would involve the committee that I chair, the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions, working with this committee to advance a common objective. I would like to hear Ms Logan's thoughts on that. I presume that part of her engagement with the Minister is to get updates on where these matters are at and how they are progressing.
Ms Emily Logan
Before I have even started, the commission has already undertaken some research in the area of direct provision. These issues are well publicised. As Ombudsman for Children, I, in my first annual report, called for the inclusion of asylum seekers to offer redress as part of the existing mechanism. A good deal of research has been published on direct provision. The commission is concerned about it. We will publicly make a statement on this in November and publish some of the work that has been undertaken. What we are trying to do is to complement or offer something new to the debate. There appears to be growing consensus and political interest in the issue of direct provision.
My concern in regard to any of the comments that have been made in front of international committees that there is no evidence of what is happening in direct provision leads me on to the Deputy's second comment. The reason we do not have what is described as evidence is because there is no redress mechanism. There is no proper independent mechanism of inspection of what is going on. There is no proper mechanism of redress for either the children or the parents in direct provision. The evidential element is difficult. I do not think it is correct to say that there is no evidence. We have not put in place a framework to allow those families and children to tell us exactly what is happening in the way that any other parent or family would be afforded in Ireland. At a fundamental level, a mechanism of redress and at the very least inspection and redress through the Ombudsman is very important.
Before we move on from that issue, if the commission is producing some research in November, it might be an idea to invite Ms Logan back to the committee to debate the research with us and to inform us of what she comes up with.
Ms Emily Logan
I would obviously be very happy to engage with the committee.
Apologies for interrupting the Deputy's questioning.
Not at all. I am pleased that the Chairman intervened.
I have two final questions. Ms Logan will be aware of the equality budgeting campaign which comprises a group of civic society organisations which campaign that we carry out an equality impact assessment of budgets and Government policy in terms of how they would impact particularly on the most disadvantaged in society. I would like to get her thoughts on that.
Ms Logan outlined in her presentation that the human rights and equality framework and infrastructure on the island were premised on the promise of the Good Friday Agreement. One of the missing components is a charter of rights across the island and in particular a commitment to amend the Constitution to reflect and enshrine certain additional rights for citizens. That fits into the campaigns in which others have been involved on issues that have been raised at the Constitutional Convention.
I would welcome hearing Ms Logan’s thoughts on these two matters.
Ms Emily Logan
In relation to budgeting, I am aware of the work done in civil society in this area. Some civil society members have already contacted me to let me know about it. I am a little late for this year’s cycle, but the issue was raised. It was one of the ones discussed at our plenary session last Wednesday and members of the commission are very keen. Much work has been done internationally and it is possible to human rights and equality proof budgets. That is certainly something in which the commission will be interested. The Deputy must forgive me for missing this budget cycle, but he can look to us next year, as the matter has already been raised with me.
On joint working across the island of Ireland, we are hosting the next meeting in November. I have contacted Mr. Les Allamby, the newly appointed Northern Ireland human rights commissioner, and that meeting will take place in November. I am not yet in a position to provide an update on the charter, but I do know joint work has been ongoing on social inclusion and poverty matters. Both committees have met Ms Patricia O’Brien, the UN representative in Geneva, and there has been ongoing work between the joint committees, but I am not yet up to date on how advanced the work is on the charter.
I thank Ms Logan.
I wish to be associated with the words of welcome, congratulations and satisfaction from my colleagues on the appointment of Ms Logan who brings great independence of mind and diligence to her new functions. We have been well served by females in ombudsman roles. Both Ms Logan and the other Emily, Ms O’Reilly, have distinguished themselves in their respective roles as Ombudsman and Ombudsman for Children. In doing their jobs in the way they did they both managed to highlight the importance of their roles. I wish Ms Logan well in her new undertaking and I am pleased to hear and see her. I am sorry that I was not present from the beginning of the meeting, but I have read the presentation.
It is most important that the commission develop links with various Oireachtas committees. We have a weak parliamentary system, about which we must be honest. One of the flaws in our democracy is that what Government wants, it gets. The old line from Gilbert and Sullivan that I always voted at my party’s call and never thought of thinking for myself at all is one of the problems in our democratic system. One of the ways this can be challenged and, I hope, changed over time is by important bodies such as the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission engaging with various committees, including this one. That would help to enhance the commission’s independence, a very important value that must be jealously guarded, but it would also assist committee members, be they in Government parties or not, to ask important questions of those in power.
I very much welcome the question that was asked and the response on the direct provision system. It must be an issue that should be right up the priority list. The idea that we can treat people as second-class citizens, as we are doing, on the basis that they are not yet citizens, is simply incompatible with any sane or sensible concept of human rights. I will ask a question, but I am entitled to make a statement.
Of course.
They are statements of welcome and encouragement. I encourage Ms Logan and wish to ask her a couple of questions, apart from the question on the direct provision system.
There is an ongoing debate about prostitution. I compliment Senator Katherine Zappone on playing a leading role in producing the committee report that is now with the Government. It is an issue I have taken up also in this term and my first term as a Senator. The question is how we should look at prostitution and whether, as part of tackling human trafficking, it is necessary for us as a society to criminalise the users of persons involved in prostitution. That is a human rights issue of first importance. I do not see how we can have a culture that respects human rights and human dignity when the purchase of one person by another in that way can be tolerated as a mere matter of contract.
I accept that Ms Logan cannot take on every issue. These are very early days for her and she has yet to prepare her programme of work. I am also aware that she will return to the committee. Does she see this issue as one that is likely to cross her desk? There is some evidence of progress. Some of us met the EU anti-trafficking co-ordinator yesterday. An input from the commission might very well be of assistance in driving the issue.
Ms Emily Logan
Certainly the commission has expressed its concern in the past about the lack of advancement of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill that dates back to 2008. Specifically, on the thematic issue raised by Senator Rónán Mullen, I ask him to bear with me as I do not have an answer for him today. Obviously, it is an important human rights issue, but I would like to have an opportunity to talk to the commission about the issue before discussing the commission’s position on it. I am happy to respond directly to the Senator on the matter. However, I am not as free as I was as ombudsman to speak in my own right and I have not yet had an opportunity to discuss the matter.
I thank Ms Logan.
I ask Ms Logan to communicate with the committee through the clerk. That would be very useful and everybody would then have her view on the matter.
Ms Emily Logan
Of course.
The work of the commission is of first importance. I think Ms Logan will agree that her job is not just to promote best practice in equality matters or defend the equality of all citizens and, as we have just discussed, people who are perhaps not yet citizens, but, in addition to vindicating human rights and the concept of equality, is there not also a need to create a culture of respect among the public for human rights? I have particular concerns because in some ways in this country we are becoming a more divided society where all people do not have the same values. This creates a difficulty in terms of where we locate our sense of what constitutes authentic human rights. Ms Logan mentioned the Constitution in her presentation as our primary and most authoritative source for what constitutes authentic human rights. I have a concern that is shared by many about the role of international human rights agencies. I was extremely unhappy with the behaviour of the UN Human Rights Committee recently and the comments of Sir Nigel Rodley, in particular, about Ireland’s abortion laws.
I am not sure whether the Senator was present at the start of the meeting, but one is not supposed to criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
Am I allowed to criticise the ideas of another person?
I will read the advice again. Under the salient rulings of the Chair, Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I respect your ruling in the matter.
These are the rulings of the Chair, not mine personally.
We probably have to clarify our thinking around them. I am not making any charge against any person, nor am I criticising any person for his or her personal conduct, but I am entitled to disagree, for example, with a Government decision, with the action of a politician, a person in a leadership role or a public person who makes a public statement and to criticise that statement. Perhaps I might put it this way - I am very critical of the recent statements of Sir Nigel Rodley. He criticised Ireland, for example, for its laws on abortion when these laws proceed from our constitutional understanding of what human rights say about the right to life of every human being from his or her beginnings. It seems UN agencies are radically in danger of overstepping their remit.
I am asking Ms Logan, and hoping for confirmation, that the work of the commission will proceed in respect of what is in the Irish Constitution. We have major discussions and debates between people of goodwill in society but there are now different points of view about the stage at which a human being should be welcomed into the human community, and their rights as such should be respected. It is appropriate that I flag my concern that certain international human rights bodies appear to be off on a frolic of their own in such a way as they do not appear to respect our constitutional understanding of authentic human rights.
In whatever way is possible I ask that Ms Logan's commission would first respect the diversity of different points of view of people of goodwill in our society on various issues and, second, that there would be as a starting premise respect for the full requirements and provisions of our Constitution and that we would not end up stressing some aspects of the Constitution and wishing that other aspects were not there because they may not suit a majority media consensus at a given time. I am certainly not asking Ms Logan for a detailed answer to that, nor do I think it is unfair to raise the issue. It will be bad for the cause of promoting human rights if international agencies are pushing controversial issues in a way that goes far beyond their remit of protecting the accepted, agreed content of human rights. I hope that Ms Logan's commission at its outset would be determined, whatever the views of individual persons on the commission, to push back against that out of a sense of professional integrity but also respect for the diversity of opinions in our society, and the provisions of our Constitution.
Thank you, Senator. As the Senator said, it is----
Ms Emily Logan
Obviously I will not get into commenting on any individual but in terms of my observation of the UN hearing, we have to remember that it is ten years since that UN committee heard progress in regard to human rights in Ireland. I was watching the live feed and I was struck by the litany of abuses and the lack of accountability in the past of the State for societal and institutional practices that led to the widespread abuse, mistreatment and neglect of women and children. I am very familiar with that, as Ombudsman for Children. The session was much more shocking because it was a ten-year appraisal of what had gone on in Ireland. Generally speaking, people were disturbed, concerned and shocked at the violations of human rights and to have heard it expressed in a UN human rights committee was not just embarrassing. It was shocking as an Irish citizen, not just as chief commissioner, to hear about our demonstrable history and the way we have treated women and children.
I will not specifically comment about that individual but I will say that as a commission I assure Senator Mullen that we respect diversity of opinion in Ireland. We have diverse opinions as a commission. We have a healthy level of debate. The purpose of the commission is to respect and respond to the views expressed in Ireland. We will not ignore those views but we will adequately represent where there are differences. My view is that they should be adequately and publicly communicated.
What I am getting at is that there must not be a shared doctrine of human rights among a certain elite that trumps what the Constitution provides for. I fully agree with Ms Logan in the context of the UN gathering. There have been shocking events in every country, not just in Ireland, and this was coming after ten years, but when non-governmental organisations are working hard to present a truthful account of issues and when it is put to the chairperson of a committee, a recognised human rights expert, that embryology textbooks attest to the beginning of human life at conception, and when the response is sneering to the effect that Irish embryology textbooks state that, that is not good enough, and that is what Sir Nigel Rodley said. I am not asking Ms Logan to jump in with me in making an accusation. That would not be fair on her, but I ask her to-----
Senator, I think you have already covered that ground so let us-----
One second now.
Please-----
Can I respond to that?
No. You cannot. I am sorry.
We should not have a culture of censorship. I think my exchange is quite a satisfactory one.
Senator, when the Chair speaks, have a culture of good manners. Stop and listen.
Ms Emily Logan
My understanding-----
Sorry, Ms Logan. I ask the Senator to listen for a moment. The chief commissioner designate does not come before this committee too often. We have an engagement today. The issues the Senator is raising are extremely important and it may be possible to have a specific meeting on those issues at a later stage. It is not fair, and the Senator said this, to have a detailed discussion on those issues now. This was a preliminary engagement with the chief commissioner designate. We might discuss, and I have been open with everybody here, the possibility of the Senator raising those issues at a later stage, formally and with notice, to allow us have a proper debate on those.
I just wanted-----
On procedure, we spoke earlier about this committee recommending that we have a Dáil debate about the UN human rights committee's startling implications for our international reputation, and that stands. I appreciate that is something Senator Mullen feels strongly about, and he has graced us by attending today, but we can have a wider debate on it in the Dáil and in the Seanad at a later time.
In fairness, we could go into detail on any of the issues members have raised today, but that is not the purpose of this meeting. If there are issues members are concerned about pertaining to the new commission, I am anxious that we give notice and have a specific meeting on them.
May I give a brief response?
Very brief, please.
Certain comments have been made. First, it does not lie in your mouth, or indeed Deputy Mac Lochlainn's mouth, to make any references, implied or otherwise, to my attendance at this committee meeting. How dare you do that. I attend these meetings as an Independent politician. I check the agenda and when I have something to say, I come in here and say it. I do not come in to vote at other people's behest. You should withdraw that comment.
Second, there are only three people present now, and I am here.
It is-----
In terms of manners, it falls to you, Chairman, to consider whether you were mannerly in making that assertion.
It is a statement of fact.
I was one of only two people in attendance yesterday. Deputy Mac Lochlainn was not there. I will make no comment about Senator Zappone because her work record is impeccable in the area, but I was one of only two Members who met Ms Myria Vassiliadou, the EU anti-trafficking co-ordinator, so please do not make any such references. I will be here when there is business on which I wish to speak, but I will not be coming in here just to palaver you. Can I just say-----
No Senator.
Sorry, Chairman, I am responding to what you said, which was inappropriate, and you should acknowledge that.
It is a statement of fact, Senator. You are hardly ever here. This is a working committee of the Oireachtas and you rarely show up, except for your own agenda.
Senator, you are here as a "Yes" man. I am here to stand up for the issues-----
You rarely grace us with your presence. This is a working Oireachtas committee.
You are a "Yes" man.
Your attendance rate is very poor.
I will suspend the meeting if this keeps up.
You do not speak for yourself. Somebody else writes your speech.
Gentlemen-----
I write my own.
I apologise if I offended Senator Mullen in any way; that was not the intention. My difficulty as Chairman is that we often have a problem getting a quorum. You are an official member of the committee. We have a problem quite often-----
And when I come in to do the business of the committee, and what I raised was sufficiently general to be acceptable, you try to close down the debate. That is why our parliamentary system is weak.
That is not true.
If you were a stronger Chairman, you-----
You rarely show up for the business of this committee.
-----would not be afraid of my-----
You are being disorderly.
You have used this committee for your own agenda-----
I was being sufficiently respectful.
You are being disorderly, please.
No. I am giving you as good as you gave-----
I have suggested to you-----
-----and you cannot take it, and Deputy Mac Lochlainn, the "Yes" man, cannot take it.
It is great that you could be here today. We are really graced.
-----that if there are substantive issues you want to raise-----
I am talking about a culture of human rights and how we understand it. If we cannot discuss that issue at this committee without getting defensive, we have no future.
In fairness to the commissioner who came here today for an engagement with us, if we want to raise serious issues we should give notice and have a specific meeting on those issues.
I was not being overly specific in what I raised. This is not about fairness to the commissioner. Ms Logan is eminently competent and was comfortable with every aspect of my exchange with her.
Of course.
It is the Chairman's fear and the discomfort of Deputy Mac Lochlainn. I am sure that Senator Zappone would have made a riveting response to some of the issues I raised. While I might not agree with all aspects of it, I would have huge respect for her contribution because it would come from a well reasoned and respectful place.
Very well. I am unsure whether Ms Logan wishes to respond to anything at this point.
I am sorry about that. I apologise for my colleagues and for myself.
Ms Emily Logan
I wish to assure Senator Mullen that the commission itself is made up of a group of people with diverse views. Our job, if we are to respect the fundamental principles of human rights, includes respecting diverse opinions. I should state to the Senator that in my presentation, I included respect for the constitutional framework. That is a conversation we will continue to have at the commission but we also respect the international oversight by the United Nations and in this particular circumstance, I recall the Minister for Justice and Equality herself noting how women's rights and children's rights had advanced because of that international oversight. I think it is possible to achieve a balance.
Yes, I agree.
Ms Emily Logan
I think it also is possible to do that in a way that is respectful to people who share diverse opinions.
Yes. For the avoidance of doubt, I hope Ms Logan did not feel in anyway discomfited or drawn into unnecessary detail by any aspect of my questions.
Ms Emily Logan
No.
I did not think she did.
It was good of Senator Mullen to attend.
I will ask one question at this stage. What does Ms Logan perceive her role to be as chief commissioner? There also are all the other commissioners but I refer to Ms Logan's specific role. Perhaps she could outline it in a few sentences.
Ms Emily Logan
As it is articulated in the legislation, it is about being the voice of the commission. It is about leading the commission and leading on the strategy. We are about to enter into the first phase of the strategy and it is about bringing together the two organisations with a single vision as the new Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. It is about linking internationally, with the Northern Ireland commission and with the four jurisdictions. We also will have a new Accounting Officer and as a lot of new administrative functions will sit with the director, I think the commissioner is very much externally focused. I will be looking strategically at what is happening, as well as trying to connect with civil society, trying to keep my finger on the pulse and to know when and what we should be doing as a commission. As for the way in which I wish to do this, I am reminded of the final meeting I had between the Minister for Justice and Equality and that Roma family. The Minister offered to the mother of the family in question anything for that individual family and the mother, in a highly dignified fashion, replied she would like Ireland to treat Roma people in ways that are more humane. That is what I am interested in doing, namely, bringing dignity to communities through the vehicle of human rights and equality.
I thank Ms Logan for her attendance and for her engagement with the joint committee. On behalf of my colleagues, I wish her and the commission every success for the future. I remind members not to forget the launch of the Garda report tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. The joint committee will now adjourn until Wednesday, 15 October for a private meeting.