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Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Dec 2015

Changing Policing in Ireland Report: Garda Inspectorate

We are meeting to discuss with the Garda Inspectorate its recently published report entitled, Changing Policing in Ireland - Delivering a Visible, Accessible and Responsive Service. On behalf of the joint committee, I warmly welcome Mr. Olson, chief Inspector; Mr. Mark Toland, deputy chief inspector; and Ms Eimear Fisher, senior inspector. Is this Ms Fisher's first visit to the committee?

Ms Eimear Fisher

Yes.

The delegates will be invited to make a brief opening statement, which will be followed by a question and answer session. Colleagues and delegates should ensure their mobile phones are switched off left in silent or, even better, flight mode, as otherwise they will interfere with the sound system.

Witnesses should note that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should also be aware that, under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I believe Mr. Olson has an opening statement.

Mr. Robert K. Olson

Yes. I say, "Good afternoon," to the Chairman and Deputies. We do not have any Senator present.

Not yet.

Mr. Robert K. Olson

I will welcome them, if they arrive.

We take the opportunity to thank the committee for inviting us to present to it. Everyone knows who we are following the Chairman's introduction. Ms Debra Kirby used to be with us, but her contract ended in September and she opted not to stay after being offered a vice president's job or something in Chicago, where she is doing well. She played a large part in producing the report. Practically one third of it is hers.

We wish her well.

Mr. Robert K. Olson

I thank the Chairman.

This organisational review of An Garda Síochána covers its structure, staffing and deployment of resources. The report is primarily about putting gardaí on the front line and providing sufficient numbers of people, strong leadership, supervision, appropriate equipment, good training and the modern technology needed to deliver a better service to all communities in Ireland. During the review the inspectorate met more than 2,500 employees of An Garda Síochána and other stakeholders.

I will turn to the report's key findings. We found an ineffective structure that was struggling to cope with the modern demands on Garda services. Many headquarters units have duplicate functions in matters such as change management, policy development and oversight. To protect front-line services, all other police services from around the globe with which we engaged in the review have restructured, reduced the number of administrative areas and now operate from far leaner structures, with fewer senior managers. We found that national and specialist Garda units were very much Dublin based and Dublin focused. The current structure which encompasses six regions, 28 divisions and 96 districts is highly inefficient and impacts negatively on the deployment of resources. Centralised decision-making takes place even on lower level issues that could be handled at sergeant or inspector level.

On the deployment of resources, people are not always on duty at the right times, in the right places and doing the right things. The Garda roster introduced in 2012 has reduced the number of working days per member each year, the number of working hours per member each year and the number of members available for duty on any given day. In total, approximately 83% of Garda resources are deployed to front-line services compared with approximately 93% in the other services we examined. As far as we could see, gardaí were not allocated according to policing needs. An analysis of deployment data on a Tuesday morning and a Saturday night identified that there were 48 fewer people on duty on the Saturday night than on the Tuesday morning. With an additional shift on the Saturday night to overlap, the inspectorate expected to see far more gardaí on duty on the streets.

There is a two-tier community policing system within the organisation, with high numbers of gardaí in the Dublin area but significantly fewer in other areas, particularly in rural Ireland. At public meetings attended by the inspectorate and at which we conducted surveys of those present, community members reported noticing a reduction in Garda visibility in their communities.

The report touches on workforce modernisation and human resources. An Garda Síochána performs some functions that may be more appropriate to other agencies such as prosecuting District Court cases and the transportation of prisoners on remand. In our estimate, at least 1,500 gardaí are in non-operational roles that could be released for patrol, investigation and community policing duties. At 14% of the total workforce, there is a low level of civilian staff in An Garda Síochána compared to other police services.

Most important, there is no individual performance management system for members.

As for governance and culture, we found deficiencies in governance, accountability, leadership and what we call "intrusive" supervision. The current Garda culture is inhibiting change. While staff identified positives such as a "can do" culture and a sense of duty, many described the organisation as insular, defensive, with a blame culture where many leaders were reluctant to make decisions. We identified some high-risk policing areas such as untrained garda drivers that needed to be addressed. Many previous recommendations made in inspectorate reports and other Government-sponsored inquiries have not been fully implemented and their benefits have not been realised. These findings are inhibiting the Garda from performing to its full potential.

There are 81 recommendations made in this report. of which 75% can be achieved, the inspectorate believes, at low or at cost. Some of the key recommendations are a new leaner structure with fewer senior managers and more gardaí on patrol, investigation and community policing duties; a reduction in the number of Garda regions from six to three, eliminating huge swathes of administration; development of multiple rosters tailored for specific Garda units to match the deployment of these resources to the days and times when they are most needed; the release of over 1,500 fully trained and experienced gardaí from non-operational roles; the use of gardaí to perform Garda roles and civilian staff to perform office and support roles; some national unit resources such as major investigation teams should be assigned to regions to provide a full national service as opposed to the Dublin-based service; the introduction of a new divisional policing model that breaks down non-physical barriers to efficient deployment; a reduction in the number of divisions to release even more gardaí for patrol duties; the divestiture or outsourcing of functions that could be performed by other agencies; development of clear governance structures to ensure accountability and drive performance; creation of an environment where senior managers and other staff are encouraged to speak up and make suggestions to improve performance; the development of a strategy to improve the decision-making skills of leaders and supervisors and to ensure that they are well-trained and have the confidence to inspire staff, tackle underperformance and reward good work; and the introduction of a performance management system to encourage good performance and for continued underperformance to provide an ultimate sanction of dismissal.

The key outcomes from these recommendations will be an increased physical Garda presence to prevent crime and reassure and protect communities in rural areas, towns and cities; the creation of a new organisational structure that supports local policing; the development of a modern workforce with the right balance of members and support staff; and an improved Garda Síochána, better for the public, victims of crime and members of the force themselves. The Commissioner now has her top team in place; new gardaí have joined and the Government has provided significant funding for crucial technology, new vehicles, new stations and refurbishments. We see this as an opportunity for An Garda Síochána to restructure and modernise. The report has also been sent to the policing authority, the functions of which include the monitoring of implementation of reports of the inspectorate.

The inspectorate believes that if all of the recommendations made in the report are accepted, implemented and properly sequenced, this pathway for change will lead to a visible, accessible and responsive police service for all the people of Ireland. We will gladly answer questions the committee may have.

I thank Mr. Olson for his comprehensive presentation. Has the inspectorate indicated a timescale by which it would like the changes to be implemented?

Mr. Robert K. Olson

We listed recommendations in the short, medium and long term. In the short term are measures that we feel could be done within a year or so; the medium term, perhaps, within two years ago. For example, the tendering process for technology would take two years to complete. The long term would be in excess of two years. One cannot set a timescale until one starts doing it.

Mr. Mark Toland

A feature of the report is that we think many of the recommendations should have been implemented previously and that it could be done quickly. We give examples of gardaí in administration in divisions and districts. A total of 259 gardaí are sitting in divisional or district administration units. We recommended 12 months ago that a divisional administration unit should be created. As Mr. Olson said, 75% of the recommendations could be implemented without cost. Some of them are policies that are drafted but have not been published. Many recommendations could be implemented quickly and having attended public meetings, the public wants more gardaí on the street today rather than in a year's time or in the long term. We have focused on more gardaí on patrol and the aim of the report is to get them out of non-operational roles. Sometimes they will have to be replaced but not always and there are opportunities to free up personnel quickly.

How many recommendations, even in percentage terms, from previous reports have yet to be implemented since Mr. Olson took up office?

Mr. Robert K. Olson

I do not have the number but it is not large. This is something we could get back to the committee about.

Ms Eimear Fisher

Of the 700 recommendations made across various reports, only five have been rejected. The rest, therefore, have been accepted but not fully implemented. I acknowledge that does not answer the question directly, but from the point of view of whether they cannot be implemented, they have been accepted. They have to go through a process of being implemented. It is indicative that only five have been rejected for various reasons. There is a strategic transformation office within the Garda which has brought together all the recommendations made by previous inspectorates and other inquiries. They are thematically gathering the recommendations together in an effort to implement them. There is some traction in respect of implementation but, obviously, the inspectorate would like more.

Where is this falling down? Is Garda management capable of implementing the recommendations? There obviously is a chronic problem in this regard.

Mr. Robert K. Olson

We believe they can. There are many recommendations, especially on technology, that they did not have the money for and they said they could not implement them until they had. Clearly, they are capable of implementing these recommendations. It is just a matter of good governance and good administration and getting in there and doing it. There is an opportunity for that to happen and we are hopeful that they will. They got halfway with many of them, but then, for whatever reason, they were unable to keep them going.

In his presentation Mr. Olson mentioned the culture of the organisation in his presentation. Is that culture averse to implementing change and being accepting of it? Am I correct in forming the impression that the vast majority of members do not want to change from top to bottom? Where is the problem within the organisation?

Mr. Robert K. Olson

Cultures are initiated with the structure. The force has had its structure since the foundation of the State with some adjustments; therefore, the culture of the organisation has formed around this.

In that regard, the culture is designed to sustain the structure and resist change. Our point is that one has to change the structure. If one does so, a new culture will form around it. As of now, however, the two have been in the same place for so long. There is resistance to change, but there are ways to overcome it. We mention several ways in the report and they include internal and external communications and marketing. It is not just a question of internal action because many citizens are also resistant to change. They need to be involved in the process as change is made.

Mr. Mark Toland

We did something different as part of the review. We conducted workshops rather than focus groups with individuals because we wanted to encourage people to make recommendations and changes. What is really refreshing is that a significant number of the recommendations have come from within the service, or from people who want to see change.

Every other police service with which we engaged and visited had faced similar challenges related to reduced numbers and austerity and had completely restructured its organisation. They were far leaner at the top and had stripped away levels of bureaucracy to try to protect front-line services. We do not believe the front line here has been protected against some of the changes made. However, there is a desire within the organisation to see change. There are many working groups doing very good work, but they run for extended periods, sometimes years. These groups become frustrated. Therefore, the delivery and implementation of change in the organisation must be borne in mind. We have been told measures have been implemented only to find on checking that the benefits have not been realised. That is an efficiency waste. There is a desire to change, but people want to see it happen far more quickly than has traditionally been the case.

Does the inspectorate believe the management of An Garda Síochána paid it lip service in terms of its commitment to implementing and intent to implement-----

I am required to remind the Deputy about what I read at the start of the meeting. Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask the Deputy to reframe his question such that he will not be focusing on any individual or individuals.

I did not name any individual.

May I read it again, just to be sure? We have to be careful. Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. The Deputy just has to be very careful.

Do the delegates believe the management of the organisation is paying them lip service? Their report speaks for itself. Some of what they have to say is shocking. So few of the recommendations made in the previous reports have been implemented. Is management stating one thing and doing another, in other words, doing nothing? What is the view of the delegation?

Mr. Mark Toland

I found that when we introduced a new concept or something that worked in another police service, the level of knowledge among management was particularly low. At the start, people were quite defensive about some of our recommendations, but when we explained how they could work and how circumstances might be different, there was far more acceptance. We have tried to engage management at all levels to persuade it and show that there are different ways of working. Some reluctance was related to a fear of the unknown and different working practices. We are recommending a change to the district structure which has been in place since the force was established. It is a major change, but I have actually lived through it as a police officer. Once we changed, none of my senior management team would have gone back to the old structure to work under it. There is a fear of the unknown. We know we need to explain the recommendations. We are very keen to meet those concerned and talk through them. We have done so in regard to crime, in the case of which things were starting to change following our report last year. The more engagement we have, the more we can explain what we mean by a recommendation. We should not just hand a report over; we need to work with management to help it to introduce something. Some of this involves significant change, or a complete change in the way the force operates. However, the structure is creaking and if management continues to try to operate under it, services, including 999 call services, will suffer, thereby affecting the public. We are saying the time is right now. The staff are in place and there is a senior management team. The funding is in place for technology, which can be a major inhibitor.

It is very difficult to allocate staff unless one knows how busy one is and what one's demands are. The force is still operating in some locations using paper-based systems. Once the force has the technology in place and starts to allocate resources according to need and demand, a much better service will be delivered. That is what we are trying to do. We are trying to provide a structure. We have actually brought together what we believe to be a simple structure for a very complex organisation. Clarity of role is important. In respect of the structure, we found that units that started off with a particular function now carry out three or four others in addition. Thus, they have lost the focus on their primary role. The proposed structure is about putting them back into their primary role and getting them to focus on a distinct area of policing. It is a question of getting other units to carry out the other functions that have been given to some of the national units, in particular. It is a question of having clarity of role and functions. When this is achieved, one can allocate resources appropriately. However, I do not believe management in a position to do so.

Mr. Robert K. Olson

Owing to the change to the 2005 Act, the inspectorate now has the ability to determine, of its own volition, whether "lip service" is being paid. We have the right to do so. With the approval given by the Oireachtas, the policing authority will, from January, have a very clear monitoring function in respect of inspectorate recommendations. With that in place, it will be very clear whether lip service is being paid or whether something is really happening.

The policing authority legislation passed through the Seanad today, I believe.

Reference was made to 1,500 non-operational roles. Are the men and women in question largely based in the Phoenix Park? May I have a breakdown of the figure?

Mr. Robert K. Olson

We can give some numbers. I believe here is a disproportionate number in the Phoenix Park.

Mr. Mark Toland

There are about 1,200 personnel in Garda headquarters. There are 500 roles, in particular, in Garda headquarters that we want to be considered. There are 1,211 if one includes Garda headquarters, national units and specialist units. There are at least 259 in divisions, regions and districts, but this does not include personnel we considered as part of the crime investigation report. We considered front-counter services and call takers, in addition to staff who look after people who are detained in Garda stations. These personnel were not included as part of the review because we had already covered them in respect of crime. The numbers are significant. For every one person deployed at a front counter, six staff are required to run the service 24/7 for 365 days of the year. There are significant numbers of gardaí in roles in divisions and districts that we believe could be performed by trained member of support staff.

The total of 1,500 is a conservative estimate. Some of these personnel could be released pretty quickly. Some would need to be replaced and some have technical skills. Gardaí are being trained. This is quite a long process and expensive. Five years after recruitment, a garda might be trained to be a fingerprint expert, which means that, in effect, one is training someone twice. In other jurisdictions staff are brought in from universities or the business world and trained to be a fingerprint expert. They are not trained to be a police officer first. There are many gardaí doing very good jobs and who have a high level of expertise, but they are carrying out functions of a kind that are not performed by police officers in other jurisdictions; rather, they are performed by support staff.

Ms Eimear Fisher

Another aspect that needs to be considered is the mindset associated with the assignment of staff. With the SMI in early 2000, it was said it should only be by exception that a member should be assigned to an administrative position. That there is still a significant number of personnel being assigned to administrative positions must be addressed. The 1,211 positions identified are positions we identified ourselves. In addition, a large number of positions were identified by members and civilian staff within the organisation. The 259 are in addition to the 1,211. There are yet more. Even the victim offices that were set up recently have gardaí assigned to them. Therefore, there continues to be a mindset issue in the assignment of members to non-operational roles. This was identified as a critical issue in 2001. While there may be a process to be gone through regarding the reassignment of members to purely operational posts, the cultural mindset of always considering the assignment of a member to a post has to change.

The delegates mentioned the roster. If I understand it correctly, there is a five-cycle roster. Is the recommendation to reinstate a four-cycle roster such that, if there are 100 gardaí available, 25 will be on duty rather than 20?

Mr. Robert K. Olson

The roster, when it went into play from a four-unit to a five-unit roster, basically gave everybody who was on it 42 more days off. They are still working close to the same hours, but a little less. There was no place to go for many of those bodies and they were taken from other places. The bottom line was that 18% of the gardaí who normally would have shown up for work some mornings on the old roster did not show up because they had to be put into the fifth unit. Gardaí, as we found in our review, who should not even have been on it were on it. For example, why does a detective have to be on at 3 a.m. on Sunday? I do not know who he or she will interview - probably no one. Detectives need to be around close to the courts. When the courts are open, when businesses are open and when victims are available, that is when one needs detectives. We recommended that there now need to be many rosters that fit the functions of those gardaí. If one looks at the addendum to Chapter 2, there is a full section with examples of rosters from other police organisations. We are not saying that they should have a particular roster but that we should look at what certain other police organisations are doing with their personnel. There are some pretty good rosters in there and it just might help them develop good ones.

Mr. Mark Toland

The question of rosters is really interesting. The roster in use is one that is primarily used by units that deal with 999 calls in many other jurisdictions - those that need to turn up quickly to a call or deal with a non-emergency call from the public. Such a roster is used by most police services we have examined. Most of them operate a five-unit model but they do not put other units onto that same system. It is designed for use 24-7, 365 days a year, not for units that contain investigation sections or people in office roles. The Garda Síochána has far too many gardaí put onto this roster who should not be on the roster in the first place, and there are gardaí now working until 3 a.m. and 4 a.m. who are in office-based roles, which is not a good use of resources. We are recommending a roster for those who deal with 999 calls, but it does not allow them to investigate crimes and carry out other functions because the roster has no time built in to allow those on that roster to go and investigate crimes and deal with victims.

The report made for alarming and depressing reading. I accept that that was not their intention - certainly not the depressing part of it - because the report is solution-oriented. I merely refer to the failure to implement previous recommendations. I refer to the fixed-charge notice or penalty points report and the crime investigation report in which the Garda Inspectorate outlined a structure of a working group that would oversee the implementation of recommendations. For me, it is not an issue of Garda management; it is an issue for the Department of Justice and Equality. I note that in this most recent report the inspectorate recommends the Department should establish formal structured processes that co-ordinate all justice sector governance of the Garda Síochána and related activities, and obviously the new policing authority will have a role in that. The most important outcome for the committee on an all-party basis is to ensure that this is the last time the inspectorate publishes a report in which the recommendations are not implemented and that there is accountability. I would like them to define clearly, as they have done before in previous reports, their vision for a cast-iron oversight structure that ensures that the superb recommendations of the inspectorate are implemented. I am equally depressed and excited because I can see the potential for change here. One would have to be stupid not to see the potential for change in what the inspectorate has outlined. What would be an ideal cast-iron oversight structure based on international best practice - one that we could bring in to ensure we will not be back again in a few years' time having the same discussion?

Mr. Robert K. Olson

Frankly, there is no such thing as a cast-iron anything. We always look for what in my parlance would be a silver bullet that would solve everything. It is much more complex than that. Everyone who is involved in that process has some role to play and now, finally, in the proposed legislation, we are putting an awful lot of that right into this policing authority. That will be something to watch, and we will see how it materialises. There is the potential, I believe, for that authority to do some good things and make some things happen. We will have to see. However, I could not sit here and say that this thing we do in Boston is great or this thing we found over in the United Kingdom is perfect. There is no such thing. It is about the Government and everyone else who is involved in that wanting to make something happen. If we have that, it will happen.

Ms Eimear Fisher

What we were concerned about was the multitude of different oversight activity. The rationale behind that particular recommendation was that the Department take a particular central role and that there would be some co-ordination, not to tie the hand of any particular body but something that would involve us, for example, working with GSOC, the policing authority and the Comptroller and Auditor General, and perhaps coming in to talk to the Committee of Public Accounts at some stage. If there were issues that ran across the priority of those groups they would influence our work plans but not necessarily influence our independence in how we work, and rather than having a plethora of different recommendations or a scattergun approach, there would be some sort of centrality. We recognised that the Department has a role, and while these new structures are being put in place, we wanted to ensure that the Department's position was recognised. That was the rationale behind that. Hopefully, and not only for the new bodies that are in place, this recommendation would have an important role.

To summarise, essentially, Ms Fisher is saying the Department of Justice and Equality is to oversee the various bodies - the Garda Inspectorate, the Garda professional standards unit, GPSU, the Garda Ombudsman and the new policing authority - to ensure that they are complementing and, collectively, overseeing the process of change as best they can.

Ms Eimear Fisher

I suppose what we were saying was not necessarily that the Department oversees in a traditional oversight role, but that it should at least facilitate. We saw that the Department has a role in facilitating and co-ordinating matters. It obviously does not have a statutory role in deciding such matters as work plans, but it has a central role, and that is something we wanted to recognise.

I thank Ms Fisher for that.

My second question relates to the worrying fact that the Garda bureau of fraud investigation has no cyber-crime unit, and the Garda Inspectorate, in a previous report, recommended a new system replacing the PULSE system. The inspectorate acknowledges that such a new system is subject to available resources, but we understand that hundreds of millions of euro are being invested in a welcome IT upgrade across An Garda Síochána.

The inspectorate has proposed a serious and organised crime unit. It is alarming to contemplate the present situation in 2015, when one thinks about white-collar crime and the use of the Internet for viewing images of child abuse or other criminal purposes. We need to give An Garda Síochána the most up-to-date technology and the personnel needed to combat these things. One of the issues I was worried about was the backlog. At one stage in 2014 there was a backlog of 1,000 cases, some of which involved very serious offenders, and there was a possibility that some of them would get off. Maybe the witnesses would detail their vision in the report for change and so on.

Mr. Mark Toland

Cybercrime is an emerging threat. Cybersecurity is an issue, certainly, across the United Kingdom, Europe and the United States. There is no cybercrime unit but that does not mean the Garda does not have skilled investigators. There are some staff who are very skilled in forensic analysis of computers, laptops and technology, but what we recommend is that a specific unit be created and that these skills be developed so that they are ready for a growing number of cases. Some of the cases are complex because part of the issue is in trying to work out the jurisdiction where the crime took place. The computer crime investigation unit represents the Garda's forensic capacity in terms of cybercrime at present, but just putting more people into that unit has not helped to deal with the backlog. We have recommended - there is an acknowledgement that the Garda will probably accept this - that some of these resources be taken out of Dublin and put into a new Garda regional structure. If an investigator in Kerry seizes some IT equipment and needs to have it examined forensically, it has to be driven all the way to Dublin to be examined, and that is a waste of everybody's time. We suggest putting those resources much closer to the investigators, taking them out to operations and not bringing in as much technological equipment as they are seizing at present.

Currently investigators have a dilemma when they go to an address. They think it better to seize equipment just in case it contains evidence. If we took some of the specialist units out on those sorts of operations, they would not be seizing the level of equipment seized at the moment. When we examined it, there was a four year backlog and some of the cases were dismissed in court for abuse of process because of the time taken, which is unsatisfactory for everyone concerned.

Other jurisdictions are putting their cybercrime capacity into their serious and organised crime units. We are trying to create multi-disciplined teams so that a team is not just dealing with cybercrime but also human trafficking, prostitution, organised crime and drugs because the people involved operate across three or four crime profiles.

To reassure the committee, I have found very talented investigators, in particular in the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation, but they are in the wrong place. We are recommending the creation of a new unit that has the necessary modern technology, which is certainly needed. The unit also needs to be structured so that it can deal with the volume of suspicious transactions and reports of cyber-crime it is getting.

The failure to implement previous recommendations has been mentioned. One of the chapters in the report on the fixed charge processing system dealt with cancellation of fixed charge notices and a number of recommendations were made. I am interested in the area of statutory exemption for emergency vehicles. My understanding is that it applies to members of the fire service, ambulance service or An Garda Síochána who receive a fixed charge notice while in an emergency situation, that is, they are in the process of saving someone's life or preventing a criminal action taking place. I think everyone can accept that if they were driving without endangering the public, the points should be cancelled. However, I have a concern. Would the exemption be applied to a garda who is late attending a meeting? How far is the statutory exemption stretched? It cannot be turned into a farce. The public will buy into a member of our emergency services who is carrying out his or her duties not having to face a penalty so long as he or she did not endanger the public when driving.

The inspectorate oversaw this issue. I raised the issue in the Dáil last night and am very concerned about information brought to my attention in recent days. What is the inspectorate's clear interpretation of the circumstances in which a statutory exemption should be granted? I am referring to members of An Garda Síochána driving their own vehicles. When would the exemption be granted?

Mr. Robert K. Olson

As we pointed out in the report, the statute is a little vague and a lot can be read into it. At the time, more than 96 superintendents were supposed to implement the policy but it was a very vague policy and there were no guidelines. All this information is contained in the report. We said it would have to be centralised so that someone who is trained and knows the law and so forth would make the decision. This should have taken care of the matter but the Minister went forward and appointed Mr. Justice Deery to audit and oversee the system. I am looking forward to that process. I would like to meet the judge and we will help him any way we can. In the report, we said we would come back and see how it is working out and that will be in our work plan for next year. We will just have to see. I agree the statute provides it must be an emergency but we will have to see what that means in practice.

Mr. Mark Toland

"On duty" is much easier to determine. If a garda is on duty and driving a Garda car, I would expect the garda to notify any control room if he or she is driving at an excessive speed or trying to catch up with a vehicle. That should all be recorded by the control room and a supervisor should take care of it in that regard. There is tracking technology in Garda cars but it is not switched on in all of them. The tracking system will tell us how the car is being driven, the speed at which it is being driven and where it was at a particular time. We are saying that technology should be switched on immediately. It is much better for vehicle deployments but South Wales have also found it reduced collisions involving police officers by 50%. Another police service referred to in the report found that its level of vehicle repairs reduced by 20%. I was a police driver myself. When we know we are being monitored, we will drive at a higher standard. The technology is fantastic and available and should be switched on.

The concept of "off duty", where police officers decide they will place themselves on duty because they have seen something, is far more difficult a concept but it is still possible to check CCTV and a senior officer should investigate the circumstances. I would expect an off-duty member to inform a control room and a supervisor immediately on doing something. Ideally the member would have the registration number of the car or details relating to what they have done but this has to be examined to ensure a garda is treated the same way another member of the public would be treated. Was it justified in the circumstances for the officer to drive at excessive speed or go through a red light? Some times it does occur when the garda is off duty. This has to be examined to ensure it was legitimate and the correct action taken.

In January of this year, the Garda professional standards unit, GPSU, finalised a report on penalty points, which had been analysed, and statistical breakdowns were provided. There were hundreds of cancellations over the course of a year in respect of statutory exemptions and emergency vehicles. Would it not be prudent to audit these statutory exemptions? It would not be a huge amount of work for the GPSU or the Garda Inspectorate and it would reassure the public the exemption is being deployed in the way outlined. I do not think anyone can argue with what has been said. We do not want to punish members of the emergency services, no matter who they are, for doing their jobs on our behalf. However, we also want to ensure that nobody thinks he or she is above the law. Is there a role for the inspectorate or the GPSU to play in going back and doing an audit to ensure it is being honoured as would have been expected? The audit would be carried out in partnership with the justice, of course.

Mr. Robert K. Olson

I mentioned earlier that this will be the topic of conversation and I hope to meet the judge next month. The judge has an audit function. If I am also coming back to examine it, I will need to ask him what he is doing and what he wants to do but I am sure the point raised by Deputy Mac Lochlainn will be part of the discussion.

I welcome the Garda inspectorate and commend it on its work and some of its excellent and sensible solutions. I feel strongly and passionately that the implementation of its report will result in two key things. First, it will save lives and, second, it will save a lot of money. In the report, the inspectorate says that 75% of its work is low cost or cost neutral work. I wanted to note that much and say that I genuinely feel passionately about the issues raised.

My first question relates to the deployment of resources. This made my blood boil because I have been speaking about this issue for the past ten years in the Oireachtas justice committee. People are not always on duty at the right time or in the right places nor are they doing the right things. We need to deal with the Saturday night-Tuesday morning syndrome. It was said that 48 fewer people were on duty on a Saturday night. Most people know that most anti-social behaviour takes place outside pubs, chip shops and social clubs between midnight and 3 o'clock on a Saturday night, Sunday morning. I am fuming that when the report was carried out, 48 fewer people were on duty on the Saturday night. A higher number of people were on duty on a Tuesday morning, when practically nothing happens. Why is this happening? Does it have to take a Garda Inspectorate to see it? Young gardaí in my constituency have been saying this to me for the past ten years. They tell me that if a garda or two were sent up to stand at the local chippers between 12 midnight and 2 o'clock on a Saturday night, anti-social behaviour would be reduced by 60% or 70%. Why is this still happening? I call it the Saturday night-Tuesday morning syndrome.

Mr. Robert K. Olson

I will turn this over to Mr. Toland but what we did was carry out a snapshot in time. As it was never done before, it was not done quickly. As we have always said, there is not a lot of technology and a lot of it is paper-based but we pieced it together and much of what we said was confirmed. I will turn it over to Mr. Toland now to go through it in detail.

Mr. Mark Toland

The first thing one needs to do is to make sure one's people are in the right place. We are recommending that they take a critical look at where every Garda member is positioned at the moment if they are not in an operational role. Do they need to be in that role? We found roles that should be performed by Garda support staff. We found sergeants in roles a garda could do, so there is an issue regarding whether it needs police sworn powers and whether it needs to be done by a sergeant or inspector or whether it could be done by a garda. That is the first thing.

Second, if one is going to allocate resources across the country, one needs to have a scientific method of allocating those resources. At the moment, we are not convinced people are allocated according to policing needs. If we went to Tipperary, as part of this exercise, and looked in detail at the way it deals with calls from the public, we would find they are recording these on paper systems. Asking Tipperary for this data around deployment took so much longer than the other divisions we looked at, such as Cork city and a division in Dublin. They were able to press a button and give us the details of all the calls they dealt with. If people are not allocated according to need, it means places that have an older workforce where people are retiring and where numbers are lost are disproportionately losing people because they are being promoted or are going to other places. We are not convinced that people are assigned and allocated according to the needs of those policing areas. It is a major issue. There will be people who will gain from this process and those who could lose from it because one runs a process about allocation, some people will have too many and some will not have enough. We are suggesting that they introduce a system of determining demand and then allocating resources. We think we need to build the organisation from a division upwards. It involves looking at what the demands around 999 calls are, how many people are being arrested and what the local demands are and building resources around that demand, building up to the regions and then building up to headquarters because they are in place to support the delivery of local policing services.

We were quite shocked by some of the results, particularly around the number of full-time community gardaí allocated across Ireland. The numbers were very low while the numbers in Dublin were huge. There are 540 full-time community gardaí across Ireland, 328 of which are in the six Dublin divisions. A total of 117 of those are in one division in Dublin, so one Dublin city centre division has 117 community officers. Limerick has 50, Cork city has 27 and Waterford has 20. When one starts to add those up, one can see that most of the resources are in the cities. When one looks at the rural communities, one will find that there are 14 divisions with ten or fewer community gardaí covering 365 days a year, 24/7. Two divisions - Kildare and Mayo - do not have full-time community gardaí. This is what the public is noticing because they are the people known to the community, the people the public contact and the people who go to community meetings. We ran this process. It had not been done before. This is something that should be run on a quarterly basis because as an organisation, one needs to know at 11 a.m. that if a major incident happens, one has the right number of people on duty with the right skills. It is not about numbers. One needs to have a certain number of detectives or traffic officers on duty at certain times, so it is good practice to do this. It is a snapshot in time. We can only say this is what we found when we ran these.

Another worrying thing was the number of Garda reserves. There are 1,124 Garda reserves but on that Saturday night across Ireland, only 34 were on duty at 11. p.m. That is a time when one would expect to see to them. We have met the Garda reserves. They are good people but again, they are not being used to the best of their ability. They provide a physical presence. We want An Garda Síochána to become an organisation that prevents crime. It involves getting out there and having a uniformed presence to try to stop the crime from happening because that will reduce demand.

Mr. Toland talked about 83% of Garda resources being deployed to front-line services compared to 93% in other jurisdictions. I was a bit taken aback by the figure of 83%. I was pleasantly surprised because I thought it was going to be lower than that. I welcome the fact 83% of Garda resources are deployed to front-line services but Mr. Toland cited the figure of 93%. What ideas does he have to bridge the gap between 83% and 93%? Where is the figure of 93% coming from?

Mr. Mark Toland

"Front-line" is quite a wide definition, so it is good news. However, front-line refers to any unit, Garda member or civilian support staff who is deployed in a role that has daily contact with the public. It would be things like gardaí on patrol, detectives dealing with victims of crime, those at front counters, call takers who are speaking to the public and the victims' officers because policing is not just about people on patrol. It is about those front-line services. Most of the police services we visited have really looked at stripping back the back office support and the number of senior managers and trying to get more people into those front-line services. We are saying they should be Garda members and support staff. Some 10% is a significant percentage when one looks at the workforce. The number was 12,804 which is a significant number of members who we think should go back on to the front line. We compared a previous inspectorate report to see if there had been any difference. There has very little difference in protecting the front line when we looked at these numbers in 2010. We expected it to be higher than 83%.

Much can be done and the report has a number of recommendations, primarily about putting people into front-line services, amalgamating Garda divisions, reducing the number of regions and taking out all those layers of bureaucracy. We looked at the two Dublin city centre divisions. They are both busy and are separated by the River Liffey. Within those two divisions, there are eight administration units. The headquarters are 600 m apart, so they are very close but there are eight administration units. There are five sergeants and 23 gardaí sitting in those administration units. We think there should be one central administration unit composed predominantly of civilian support staff and not gardaí. We found a similar structure throughout the 28 divisions and 96 districts. They are keeping a traditional system and we are saying that this is waste. They should get the administrative layers into one place and get those people back out on to the front line.

In the section dealing with governance and culture, one sees terms like "insular", "defensive" and "a blame culture". When the inspectorate interviewed the 2,500 members of An Garda Síochána, did they understand that the public needs to have confidence and trust in the police force? Do they get it when the inspectorate is coming up with terms like "insular", "defensive" and "a blame culture"? I am referring in particular to senior management within An Garda Síochána. Do they understand that in order to have a successful force which, as the report puts it, is responsive to the public, the public needs to have confidence and trust in them? If they carry on like this, they are going nowhere.

Mr. Robert K. Olson

They want that trust but they are more concerned about keeping it in the sense of what they do. This is why a lot of the things that have cropped up here over the past few years are incidents where it was not public. It was not that they did not want to deal with it and, believe me, they worry about trust. For the first time in a long time, people are starting to question some things so they are very worried about it. They want to have a good police force. We talked to these folks. They are looking for it. The gardaí on the street are doing the best they can with what they have and how they are being governed and administered. They know the waste that is there. There is a fear of exposure and headlines, so there is a tendency to get it fixed but not to have it raised to the surface. I do not know if I am making sense here but that is in the culture. They fix it and worry about it but they do not want to see it pop up in front.

Ms Eimear Fisher

When we were talking to the different people across the board, there was an overwhelming sense of responsibility to the public. There was a consistency in focus groups and a palpable feeling of frustration in respect of what they wanted to deliver. They felt a sense of duty to the public. In respect of some of the positives which came out of the question on what they considered the culture of the organisation to be, I do not think there had been an understanding of the word "culture" because Garda culture always has a negative connotation but there are many positives in Garda culture.

It came out in the focus groups, consistently across the country, that there was a sense of duty and can-do. There was a sense of frustration, in that we can do as much as we can, but never say "No." When more responsibilities are put upon us, we do not question whether or not we can do them as an organisation. We simply take them, rather than saying, "Where's the priority here? If we take on a new function, what's going to fall from this?"

There was, therefore, a sense of frustration in that but there was also a sense of frustration about insularity and defensiveness. A persistent point across the country concerns a lack of opportunity to be listened to and to be able to say: "I don't think we can do this. I don't think we're doing this in the correct way." People wanted a process to be able to say that respectfully. They do not want to be in any way disloyal to the organisation, but positively and constructively say: "I think we could do this differently" and "Can I have an opportunity to say this?"

While those issues of insularity and defensiveness are there, we should not lose sight of the fact that there are strengths there as well. Having asked these questions of various people involved in the focus groups, I feel there was that sense of responsibility to the public. That should not be lost in this report either.

I thank the witnesses for attending the committee. I join with others in commending them on a comprehensive, solution-focused and practical report. It is good to hear the positives, which are emphasised in the report, about the can-do culture. That is a positive aspect of the culture that was mentioned.

Looking at the implementation issue, earlier this afternoon, the Seanad passed the Policing Authority Bill, which is now all set to come in. Mr. Olson said the report had been sent to the policing authority and, of course, the authority's functions include monitoring the implementation of the inspectorate's reports. One of the reasons we have brought in that policing authority is because of that missing link, where there has not been monitoring of recommendations. Is Mr. Olson hopeful, or does he anticipate, that the policing authority will make a difference in terms of monitoring implementation and following up on recommendations?

I have a question that is joined to that one. Mr. Toland said that things are starting to change already on foot of the 2014 report on crime investigation, on which this committee had a session. When we were debating the policing authority Bill earlier with the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, she pointed out that a tender is already out for the investment in technology necessary, for example, to move away from the dreadful, dated practice of paper-based rostering. So changes are clearly in train. We have heard a lot of negatives about the lack of implementation of the 700 recommendations, but clearly some of them are in the process of being implemented. With the policing authority that process will, presumably, be monitored to a greater extent. It is really about implementation and how that will work.

Who wants to come back on that? Mr. Olson?

Mr. Robert K. Olson

We have certainly been in contact with Ms Josephine Feehily, the designated chair of the authority. I do not know when the appointment date is but she is certainly official. She still has to get her team together, but I feel frankly very good about it. They have the capacity to do just what Senator Bacik said - to really watch things, monitor them, keep it up on the radar and see things through. The real proof, however, will be once it gets in place. It is nice to set up a new thing, but what will be the outcome? It is really all about measurement.

My second question is picking up on that recommendation about the culture. Gardaí need to see the creation of an environment where senior managers and other staff are encouraged to speak up and make suggestions to improve performance. It strikes me that this was something that came up in a number of other reports - not just the Garda Inspectorate's one but also the Guerin report - that, first of all, there was a difficulty with junior gardaí on probation being assigned overly burdensome responsibilities. There was clearly a culture where they did not feel they could say that to senior staff. How is that best approached? What is the key thing that will work to change that culture? Is it about having more diversity in the force? Is that one aspect?

Mr. Robert K. Olson

The Senator has hit it. Any additional influence on things is good. Diversity of staff and the people who are there will make a difference in that culture. It is something that has been there. I do not know if the Senator was here earlier when I was explaining how the current culture gets stuck on the same structure. With a new structure, new governance and all of those things in place, I think clearly-----

Mr. Mark Toland

Decision-making is something that we have found in crime. We have found a lot of sergeants and inspectors who are not making decisions that we think are appropriate to their rank. There is a lot of referring upwards and some of those end up in Garda headquarters for things that I think are fairly low-level. There is a perception that there is a blame culture within the organisation and that if a senior manager makes a mistake it could be career-threatening. Sometimes that can be an excuse. That may not be the reality but some supervisors might use that as an excuse for not tackling poor performance or making a decision. That certainly exists. We had a lot of people in workshops, at all ranks, who said they were afraid to put their head above the parapet and say: "That won't work," or "We need to go in that direction." That is something about which we have made a recommendation. There are ways to do that anonymously, there are staff surveys, and there are ways to encourage people to speak up, help with improvement, and to become a learning organisation. Sometimes discipline is used by police services as the first point in dealing with something, when they should say: "We need to learn from this and become an organisation that learns from mistakes and trains staff really well."

We have lots of recommendations in the report about decision-making and creating leaders who have the courage to step up and make those sometimes difficult decisions. These are not always operational decisions; they are often administrative. We found a Garda unit that has 600 files where people have referred things to them. They are things that are in garda policies, and I think those decisions should be made at a more local level and not put up to Garda headquarters because of a fear of making mistakes.

My final question is about something others have touched on. Is this beyond the Garda Síochána itself? Is there a problem of culture within the Department of Justice and Equality? This committee has previously recommended the creation of a criminal justice inspectorate at that level. I attended a round-table meeting that the Minister hosted on 23 November to explore this possibility. Does Mr. Olson have a view on that? Is that a mechanism that could improve oversight, particularly of the implementation of recommendations and good governance structures in the Garda Síochána?

Mr. Robert K. Olson

Absolutely. In fact, I concur with that and have thought about it for a long time. When one looks back at the most recent reports, including the fixed-charge penalty issue, crime inspection, and some of the pieces of this one - I go back to the start of the inspectorate, with all of the other reports that we did, including on resource allocation - the one theme that was always there was that this is not just about the gardaí. They were the only people we could really look at, however, and they have to get us what we want and we have to have access. As regards fixed-charge penalties, if it had not been for the inspectorate, the Courts Service could have said it did not want to talk to us. They were great - do not get me wrong. We worked with them and they came up with some really great ideas that are working.

As regards the Courts Service, there is an issue that we mention again in the report and have recommended before to the effect that gardaí should not be transporting remand prisoners. It ought to be the Prison Service. They do it all over the country and are professionals at it. Those are the kinds of thing that an overall inspectorate could deal with. We could examine prisons to see how many jobs are being done on remand. We could come up with a recommendation and say that this is what ought to happen. We could do the same thing with the Courts Service and the Probation Service.

At that round-table meeting, the Garda Inspectorate was mentioned as a really good model for development and expansion.

Can we have three brief questions from Deputy Farrell, please?

I thank our guests for coming before the committee this afternoon. The three main issues are extracts from the inspectorate's report. An analysis has already been raised by Deputy Finian McGrath, but my question is somewhat different. The analysis of employment data on a Tuesday morning and Saturday night concerned 48 gardaí. The inspectorate expected to see far more members on duty. This has been mentioned to me privately by members of An Garda Síochána. Is some of that to do with more junior ranks being rostered for late-night or more anti-social hours, for example, in one division, where more junior members of the force were being allocated the red-eye shift at 2 or 3 a.m.?

We will get an answer to that.

Bear with me, Chairman. I have an associated question.

I will not.

I will come back to Deputy Farrell. That is a very specific question which is very interesting, so we will get an answer to it.

Mr. Mark Toland

We did not find that as part of the survey because we did not look into that detail. We certainly did not get that impression when we went out and did focus groups. Most of the young people in the organisation will be on the units that go out at the weekend, because that is where they start their policing career. We certainly believe the district structure means that districts in the same division - sometimes there can be four, five or six districts in a division - make decisions on whether people have the night off and what duties they do without someone taking a divisional look to ensure there are sufficient people on duty across the division instead of in 96 districts. What we found on the Saturday night was that a greater proportion of people were due to come on duty but were not at work. This was a significant number of people with authorised absence. We recommend examining why 1,300 people did not come on duty across Ireland that night. There is a legitimate reason, which is that someone gave them the time off, but that is when people are needed and the roster was brought in to put more people on the streets on Friday and Saturday nights.

My associated question has to do with the new roster. It is far superior to the previous arrangement, but it certainly is not without its flaws. There is a lack of centralised control for rostering nationally, never mind on a district level. It is not even done on computer in a centralised way in some districts. I understand, if I am not mistaken, this was previously recommended by the inspectorate but it has not been implemented for a variety of reasons. Surely this is something that should be prioritised by the inspectorate as a priority for Garda management.

We covered it earlier in the meeting.

Mr. Mark Toland

We identified six systems in the report, and resource management is one of them. This can be done while waiting for a fancy new piece of technology. When I joined the police it was done on paper. It is more time-consuming but it can still be managed in a different way in the interim. What we are saying is that we should not wait for the technology but should do something now about allocating resources. We should not wait for two or three years to get a wonderful piece of technology. It should be done now as good practice.

The technological expertise is present; it is just that the systems are not in place.

Mr. Mark Toland

The Garda will introduce new systems, and resource management is one of the first systems it wants to introduce. It is a good way to go forward.

On her last appearance but one before the committee, the then Commissioner designate corrected me when I referred to the civilianisation of duties. She referred to it as professionalisation, and I see her point and agree with it. The professionalisation of certain aspects - the inspectorate has readily identified it in several points in its latest report - would free up the 1,500 members mentioned. It is clear that some of this would be at no cost, or a relatively low cost, and there is a desire for it. As far as I recall, that meeting with the Commissioner took place approximately 12 months ago. Has there been, in the inspectorate's view, and based on this report, a significant change in An Garda Síochána in the past 12 months in terms of implementing this new approach to the professionalisation of certain roles in An Garda Síochána? It was mentioned that the report is a snapshot in time, but 12 months ago, when the Commissioner was before the committee, issues were identified with regard to bringing in individuals with specific expertise who do not need to be sworn members. This was mentioned earlier. Has the inspectorate identified whether there would be evidentiary issues with regard to some of the duties they perform in back-room office environments? Would it be necessary for these duties to be carried out by a sworn member? Is this something that was analysed?

Ms Eimear Fisher

We examined whether it was a black-and-white situation. We looked at a situation where we want police officers to do police work and civilians to civilian work, in whatever way once this word is used. It is not black and white, and we recognise there are situations where a police head is needed to look at certain issues, which may not be operational. We are not black and white about it and there are some shades of grey. There are certain nuances about functions where we may need some police involvement. There are legacy issues with regard to moving from a police environment and member assignment to particular situations to purely civilian situations. We recognise this also.

According to our evidence, there has not been significant change in the movement towards civilianisation or professionalisation. Something which supports this assertion is that the crime investigation report contained a recommendation on divisional administration and the amalgamation of districts and divisional administration units, but we have no evidence this has happened to date, and that was a year ago. This is the answer to the question.

Mr. Mark Toland

We have identified some pieces of legislation which specify a chief superintendent, and we state that all of these instances should be examined. There is no need for some of these things to be done by a police officer. There is a strategic transformation unit and we see professional change management skills. We have identified legislation which is unnecessary because what it deals with is not evidentiary. There are some roles, particularly technical bureau forensic experts, involved in the chain of evidence, but in most other police services they are performed by professionally trained support staff and not by police officers.

Does Mr. Olson wish to speak?

Mr. Robert K. Olson

No. Mr. Toland and Ms Fisher have covered it pretty well.

I have an observation on one of the points in the report, which mentions that at public meetings community leaders reported a noticeable reduction in Garda visibility. Was the measurement of this defined? Last Friday, the Dáil debated a Private Members' Bill on the ramming of Garda vehicles. During the course of the discussion it was stated that approximately 53% of Garda vehicles are unmarked. Apparently, a larger percentage of the new vehicles deployed this year are unmarked. Therefore, it stands to reason that the figure of 53% is increasing. My question on the observation from the public meeting is how is it determined whether there is or is not a reduction in the Garda presence. Is it simply a matter of visibility and that the public is not necessarily seeing the gardaí?

Mr. Mark Toland

I went to most of those meetings. The public was very supportive, and feedback on community policing gardaí was absolutely fantastic, but people have noticed that the number of community gardaí has decreased. Most of the people at the meetings represent areas, organisations and neighbourhood watch groups. These are people in regular contact with the Garda Síochána in a formal environment. They get text alerts and information. They have noticed a reduction in the number of community policing gardaí and this is how they gauged it. This was the case in every meeting we attended. People love their community policing gardaí, but they have noticed that they do not see them. Many people on the outskirts of a district or division said they felt there was not as much visibility of gardaí, which is what the Deputy is speaking about.

We included recommendations in the report, some of which are quite simple. Sometimes police officers walk up and down a street, but unless they knock on a few doors and engage people they are not seen. It could well be that gardaí are out on patrol, but they need to get out of their cars and engage people and let them know they are there. Otherwise, people do not always see them. Sometimes this is unfair because they are out there patrolling. If they are in the police cars driving up and down roads, quite often those in the community do not see them, but if they knock on two or three doors and let people know they are there, and pop into a business and let the business know they are about, it resonates with people. My police officers in London in my last command were quite shy, with their heads down. Part of what we did was to tell them to have their heads up and talk to people. People will remember that engagement, whereas if the police officers walk past them they will not remember it as an engagement. There is something about communication skills and basic people skills, and letting people know they are there.

Ms Eimear Fisher

It is important to recognise there has been an increase in the number of marked cars, and we noted this in the report. As Mr. Toland stated about the public presence and visibility, the public can only recognise a presence when it is visible to them. At the same time, there must be reassurance, because there are valid reasons for having unmarked cars. That said, we stated in the report that the inspectorate does not believe there is a need for certain cars which are unmarked at present to be unmarked. Detective cars may not always need to be unmarked, and this is a specific observation made in the report. The Deputy is correct that there is a difference between presence and visibility, which is noted in the report and is observed.

I welcome the members of the Garda Inspectorate to the committee and I apologise for not being here earlier to hear their presentation.

I have a general question regarding whether the report has considered the role and deployment of the Garda traffic corps. I get quite a lot of complaints from constituents on this issue. Gridlock is back in Dublin city and it is sometimes quite severe. A couple of weeks ago, a traffic accident occurred on the M50 and the entire M50 and the north side of the city were in gridlock for a couple of hours. I was coming into the city that morning and at Fairview, where there is a junction of three roads, the traffic was stopped and motorists were trying to drive through red lights and yellow boxes. There was mayhem but there was not a garda to be seen anywhere. In situations like that, somebody is needed on the ground to stop people from behaving in this manner. It would be expected in such situations that one or two gardaí would be at that junction.

This is not the only sort of complaint I have heard. I have heard complaints about traffic congestion and parking and so on. We have others, not just the Garda traffic corps, to deal with these issues. Dublin City Council has a traffic management policy and Dublin Bus has its own cameras, but these are mainly interested in bus movement. Has the Garda Inspectorate considered the issue of general traffic management and its regulation? What is the Garda's role in that?

Mr. Mark Toland

We looked first at the structure and found there is a Garda national traffic bureau and a Dublin metropolitan region traffic unit, each division in Dublin has a traffic unit and there are traffic units throughout the country. We make recommendations about how these should be deployed in the future and welcome the fact they are to be renamed as roads policing, so they focus on criminals using the road networks. The traffic corps has seen a significant reduction in the number of gardaí assigned to traffic duties, as have community policing units seen such a reduction. Many people have been lost through promotion and have not been replaced. We recommend that the divisional model considers how these people are deployed.

Currently, people from other units deal with serious car accidents where people are injured. I believe traffic officers should deal with the most serious accidents. Motorways are probably the most dangerous places for police officers to operate on. Those police officers should be properly trained traffic officers. The report considers this issue. We recognise the need for the Garda to clarify the role of traffic officers and to ensure they are deployed to the sort of incidents identified, because these are serious issues. Officers need skills to cure traffic problems and to deal with serious accidents and collisions.

I call Deputy Collins and ask him to be brief because we have another session.

I have a few questions, but I will begin with an observation. The witnesses said they had held a number of public meetings and forums throughout the country. This is good. In my role as spokesperson on justice for my party, I have attended approximately 40 public meetings throughout the country, some of which were called by my party and others which we were invited to attend. I have observed from these meetings that in some urban areas there is a big disconnect between the public and An Garda Síochána. There is a lack of confidence in or respect for the Garda. Did the witnesses pick up on that in their engagement in different parts of the country? Outside of urban settings, communities are a lot more open, although they may have questions or have criticisms to make. Is there something the Garda Inspectorate can do to advise An Garda Síochána how to address this?

Mr. Mark Toland

In my experience, and I think the situation is the same in Ireland, it is much harder to get people in cities to engage in neighbourhood watch and community alert schemes. I live in rural Ireland and local people are much better known to each other and there is more of a community spirit. The Garda Síochána has struggled to introduce neighbourhood watch schemes in high crime areas and to get local people involved in these schemes.

We did not find a disconnect between community gardaí in Dublin and Cork city in comparison with gardaí in rural Ireland. We found it very interesting that the community gardaí were valued in both areas. What we found was that when people were told to ring their local garda station by community gardaí, they did not always get the most appropriate response and sometimes they felt their call was not welcomed when they rang up to support something. That is a problem when people contact or ring a Garda station to report something such as anti-social behaviour or a quality of life issue. We found that gardaí in the cities are much busier and they struggle, because of the volume of calls, to deal with quality of life issues whereas gardaí in more rural areas have more time to deal with those issues.

Ms Eimear Fisher

It is important to add that the issues the inspectorate raised through all the different reports are not only issues that arise in Ireland. Most of these issues are ones that have been faced by other police forces. Therefore, to answer the question regarding what the inspectorate can do, it is here to point out areas for improvement. These issues have been faced by many similar organisations and it is not as if the Garda Síochána has a monopoly in regard to difficulties and deficiencies that arise. We look at the solutions that have been applied in other jurisdictions, successfully or not, to see whether they might apply here. On the issue of confidence, there is no reason the public should not feel confident in and trust the Garda. There are some areas that can be improved, but many other forces face similar issues.

People often say they rang the Garda station but nobody got back to them or that they made a complaint and nobody got back to them. This is a common complaint I hear, but all I can advise them is to put everything in writing in an e-mail or letter. What is the protocol in regard to such calls or complaints? Is it at the discretion of the garda at the other end of the phone?

Mr. Mark Toland

Most police jurisdictions have moved to a small number of control rooms for emergency calls and non-emergency calls. Most jurisdictions, including Scotland and the PSNI, have a 101 system the public can use to call a designated, dedicated control room. Currently, people here ring their local district station. Sometimes there is one person there dealing with the counter and answering the phone. This is not an ideal system as these people have ten or 12 other things to deal with. My experience is that public complaints reduce considerably when police services move towards a control centre which answers calls quickly. Most members of the public do not expect a police officer to arrive immediately for something non-serious, and providing people's phone calls are answered and they are told their complaint has been noted, most people are happy. However, currently phones ring out and the telephony system is not great. Also, the gardaí people are ringing are doing two or three other jobs. Not to criticise them, they do not have the time to speak to the public to get to the bottom of the problem and to deal properly with the inquiry.

On the issue of Garda stations, I understood Garda management was to conduct an impact analysis in the areas where they close Garda stations. Some 139 Garda stations were closed throughout the country. However, that impact analysis was not carried out. Has the Garda Inspectorate examined the impact of the closure of Garda stations in these communities or at how the policing service has been affected as a result or at the impact on crime levels? Has it done any analysis of that or does it propose to do so?

Mr. Robert K. Olson

No, we did not. That was beyond our remit and we would not have been able to do it. However, the question gives me an opportunity to comment on Garda stations. Nowhere in our report do we recommend the elimination of any stations. What we recommend in regard to the new functional model is the need to use and operate differently the stations in place. We want more officers out of the stations than sitting in them.

I have a brief question. Mention was made earlier of the issue of lean management. I understand this is a science or approach for management, that it is not just a vague term and that it refers to a specific, focused approach. Has the inspectorate recommended a particular form of lean management or technology for the Garda Síochána?

Mr. Robert K. Olson

I do not know if we grabbed a textbook title for this. However, when we looked at how the organisation was managed, we found too many decisions are made at the top. There is a lack of clear policies with guidelines. Many decisions, for example, are made by a chief superintendent when they ought to be made by a sergeant or an inspector. It goes back to these other cultural issues where people do not want to make decisions. We believe authority needs to be pushed down. Management needs to count on those people below to make those kinds of decisions, with governance at the top of it. In doing so, one does not need all of those folks. We received a submission from the Garda Representative Association, GRA, which recommended the whole rank of assistant commissioner be gotten rid of. We felt that was going a little too far. We did think it was an inefficient system with six assistant commissioners and that it would be much more efficient and effective with three.

Many companies and organisations have taken on lean technology with a specific, focused approach. I was just wondering if that is what Mr. Olson meant.

I thank the representatives from the inspectorate for attending. I wish the inspectorate well in its future work and in its engagement with the new policing authority. I thank the delegation for its interesting engagement with the committee. This committee might not be in existence for much longer as we are facing into an election. The inspectorate has been helpful to the committee over the years. I thank it for that engagement and wish everyone and their families a happy Christmas.

Sitting suspended at 4.01 p.m. and resumed at 4.03 p.m.
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