JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 11 Nov 2003

Vol. 1 No. 38

CEDAW Convention: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome members to the meeting. We will be discussing with representatives of the Women's Human Rights Project the report of the Irish Government to the United Nations on the CEDAW convention.

I welcome Ms Noirín Clancy, the project co-ordinator of the Women's Human Rights Project, Dr. Joanna McMinn and Ms Maeve Taylor of the Women's Human Rights Project. The purpose of this meeting is to discuss the concerns of the Women's Human Rights Project about the official Government report to the CEDAW committee on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women. Members have been circulated with background material and the presentation document. I invite Dr. McMinn to make the presentation.

Dr. Joanna McMinn

Good afternoon. My name is Joanna McMinn. I am the director of the National Women's Council which is one of the members of the Women's Human Rights Project. The Women's Human Rights Project is made up of 13 organisations which have come together on a common platform to promote and fulfil women's human rights.

We have distributed background information and our presentation will highlight the main points in that information. On my left is Maeve Taylor, who is a training and development officer in Banulacht. She will give a brief background on women's human rights and an overview of the convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women, CEDAW. Noirín Clancy, on my right, who is co-ordinator of the Women's Human Rights Project, will outline the shadow report and highlight our concerns about the Government's fourth and fifth report to the CEDAW committee.

Ms Maeve Taylor

Good afternoon. I thank the members for the opportunity to address the committee. I will begin by reading a quote from the Vienna declaration on human rights.

Chairman

Can we release the submission to the committee to the press?

Ms Taylor

Yes. I will begin by quoting from the Vienna declaration on human rights which was signed by the international community in 1993. It states:

The human rights of women and the girl child are an alienable, integral and indivisible part of universal human rights. The full and equal participation of women in political, civil, economic, social and cultural life at the national, regional and international level, and the eradication of all forms of discrimination on grounds of sex, are priority objectives of the international community.

Women's human rights are of paramount importance since there is no country where women enjoy human rights equally with men.

The Women's Human Rights Project has come together out of a recognition of the systemic and systematic discrimination against women which has resulted in deep patterns of inequality and disadvantage for women, with women disproportionately affected by poverty and social marginalisation. Women also face a range of additional barriers, such as the disproportionate burden of reproductive and care-giving work; segregated employment practices; discriminatory, traditional and cultural laws and practices; lack of information and services in the areas of family planning and reproductive health, the unequal representation of women in political and other decision making structures at all levels and widespread violence against women in all societies.

In addition, many women experience multiple barriers in gaining access to rights to employment, housing, land, food and social security. The Women's Human Rights Project, as Dr. Joanna McMinn said, is a platform of 13 organisations which have recognised the need to form an independent organisation in Ireland, an independent voice for women's human rights to promote recognition of women's rights as human rights and to lobby for the implementation and fulfilment of women's human rights in Ireland.

The Women's Human Rights Project which is funded under the equality for women measure through the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform focuses on the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. This convention, known as CEDAW, was ratified by Ireland in 1985. Since then Ireland has had an obligation to report to the UN Committee on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women and to report on Ireland's progress in the implementation of women's human rights. To avoid confusion the acronym CEDAW refers to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, which is the international treaty drafted in 1979 and ratified by Ireland in 1985, and to the Committee on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women, which is a United Nations committee of 23 experts elected by the United Nations at a special sitting of the General Assembly. The role of this committee is to oversee and monitor implementation worldwide of the CEDAW convention, to receive reports from countries, which are signatories to the convention, and to comment on them and make their own progress reports. The CEDAW committee makes general recommendations, which elaborate and elucidate on the principles in the CEDAW convention.

The CEDAW convention is unique in international human rights law. It is the central and most comprehensive international law document on women's rights. It does not add to the list of rights in other treaties but it aims to change and challenge the system within which women's rights are violated. It is intended to be transformative. It contains a wide ranging definition of discrimination and forbids intentional and unintentional discrimination based on sex and recognises the role of structural discrimination, in other words, the kinds of discrimination which are embedded in the systems and structures and cultures of states. It recognises the role of structural discrimination in preventing women from fully enjoying their human rights.

The convention obliges states to pro-actively adopt policies and measures to remove obstacles to women's enjoyment of their human rights. There is a strong recognition in the CEDAW convention that removal of legal barriers is not enough to bring about equality for women. While an equal opportunities approach is necessary to begin to create the conditions for equality, specific measures are required to remove the barriers and obstacles to women's full enjoyment of their human rights. For example, article 3 of the convention places a duty on states in all fields to take all appropriate measures to ensure the full development and advancement of women for the purpose of guaranteeing them human rights on a basis of equality with men.

CEDAW recognises the importance of culture and tradition in shaping the thinking and behaviour of men and women and the significant part they play in restricting the exercise of basic rights by women. Article 5 of the convention addresses the way in which sex role stereotypes and traditional customs and practices can contribute to discriminate against women and prevent them from achieving equality.

Under article 1 of the convention, the United Nations CEDAW committee has the power to make general recommendations. Since 1990 it has issued four recommendations on violence against women, equality in marriage and family life, political and public life and health. The recommendations strongly suggest the need for special measures to be taken by states governments to advance equality and that in reporting to the committee it is necessary for states to include the targets they are trying to achieve in their national policies, the resources directed to bring about equality for women and the indicators used to measure the impact of those policies.

The Government will present its report at the next meeting of the CEDAW committee at the United Nations. The Women's Human Rights Project has been co-ordinating the production of a shadow report which challenges the Government's official report. My colleague, Ms Clancy, will give an outline of the shadow report.

Ms Noirín Clancy

I shall outline the process involved in drawing up the alternative or shadow report to the CEDAW committee and highlight some of our concerns on the content of the Government's report to the CEDAW committee. We carried out a survey among women's groups throughout the country to ascertain what they saw as the priority issues that should be included in the shadow report. Four key areas emerged - political representation, violence against women, health and the barriers to education and employment. When the Government's report was published we organised regional workshops around the country in Limerick, Athlone, Sligo, Galway and Dublin, at which women were given an opportunity to comment on what the report was saying on the above four key areas. These workshops gave women's groups an opportunity to feed into the shadow report, ensuring their voices would be heard at UN level. We have also conducted consultations with key organisations. The process is ongoing. By the end of December we hope to complete the shadow report and in the new year to submit it to the UN CEDAW committee in New York.

We welcome the report and the positive measures which have been undertaken by the Government in regard to combating discrimination against women, one of which is the equality for women programme administered by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and which funds our own project as well as over 70 projects throughout the country.

For the purposes of this meeting I shall highlight some of the key issues in regard to the four areas mentioned. In regard to political representation, I am disappointed that in the Government's report there is no examination of the barriers prohibiting women from entering politics, whether at local or national levels, such as the inhibitive male culture, the extremely family unfriendly working practices, lack of supports, such as training and child care, and no cre×che in the Dáil. Women's groups ask where is the political will or leadership to address these obstacles given that they do not merit any discussion in the report.

In the Government's report the issue of violence against women is entitled "Domestic Violence". The Government needs to get the definition right. Violence against women is not just about domestic violence; it is about rape, sexual assault in the workplace and trafficking in prostitution. Apart from the need for more public awareness of the problem and increased resources, a key problem highlighted over and over again at our workshops throughout the country is that of the Judiciary and the complete lack of consistency in how judges approach violence against women. Less than 6% of domestic violence perpetrators receive a prison sentence. When the Government was last interviewed by the CEDAW committee it emphasised the need for gender sensitive training for the Judiciary. Women ask why such training is not a condition of employment for judges and legal professionals at all levels.

On the issue of health, a huge concern among women throughout the country is the lack of progress in cancer screening programmes. The rolling out of these programmes has been very slow and women's groups want to see them nationwide. Women ask when there will be an expansion of these essential screening programmes. Reproductive rights are also highlighted as major concerns. The fact that the abortion issue has not yet been resolved continues to have significant consequences for women's health. The Irish Family Planning Association estimates that over 6,000 women travel to the United Kingdom each year to seek abortions. The rate of late abortions is higher among Irish women. There is unequal access to abortion, depending on women's socio-economic circumstances.

The CEDAW committee urged the Government to facilitate a national dialogue on reproductive rights, including this country's restrictive abortion laws. The Government has never put a proposal to the people to vote for a liberalisation of the abortion laws. This issue cannot be separated from the need for increased resources for information and education about family planning services, particularly for young women and people in rural areas.

The lack of affordable and sufficient child care places remains one of the principal barriers to education and employment. Recent cuts in FÁS training courses affect the most marginalised women who do not know whether they will be able to complete such courses. Given that almost 30 years have passed since the introduction of the Anti-Discrimination (Pay) Act 1974, it is hard to believe that women's earnings in industry remain almost 30% less than those of men and the gap is widening. When women discuss this matter at the workshops they realise that it has become the norm. It is no longer debated but accepted as the status quo in the same manner as political under-representation. Many people have highlighted the need for legislation to enable women to challenge unequal pay structures.

Women are asking when the national women's strategy will be produced. It is over eight years since the Government committed to publishing a national action plan for women, but the plan has not yet materialised. The Government report states that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has decided to consider the development of a national women's strategy in consultation with other Departments. Women's groups are keen to know where the strategy is.

I would like to conclude by quoting from the general recommendations of the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women. The committee has highlighted the fact that Ireland is not a democratic society because "societies in which women are excluded from public life and decision making cannot be described as democratic".

Chairman

I thank Ms Clancy who has mentioned a number of issues which will be discussed by members of the committee. Members are also free to ask questions.

Deputy Harkin

I welcome the ladies from the Women's Human Rights Project. We have been given an outline of the work of the delegation in respect of the recognition of women's rights as human rights. I would like to make some observations and to ask some questions.

What are the barriers, according to the delegation, to the increased representation of women in politics? There seems to be a belief that women should get on with it by joining political parties or doing what they have to do, but it is not happening. It is not the case that women are not interested in this area. The project's survey indicated that political representation is one of the four key issues. Over 3,000 women in the north-west participated in a recent major survey of women's health issues. The need for women to be involved at the decision making level was found to be the top priority, ranking higher than child care, rural transport and access. Women are aware of the need for increased political representation. What does the project consider to be the barriers to such an increase?

What are the specific measures that could be taken by political parties to address this problem? I believe some funding is available to political parties, but I am not quite sure what they do with it. It is worth noting that a number of female Deputies, Senators and other political representatives are Independent. It is probable that the percentage of Independent Deputies who are female, which I accept is small, is higher than the equivalent percentage for any of the political parties. I would like to hear the delegation's thoughts on this issue.

I was shocked to read in the delegation's report that although 300,000 was made available to the Minister for gender training for the Judiciary, no information is available on the nature or extent of the training that has been accessed. I was shocked when I read that neither the Minister nor the Department is in a position to encourage participation by judges on such courses. As far as I am concerned, the Judiciary should lead the way in this regard. The Minister should ensure, as the project has stated, that gender training should be a condition of office of all judges and legal professionals.

I would like to conclude by commenting on an issue that is very important to many women in County Leitrim. I remember reading a submission made by Leitrim Women's Network some time ago. One of the major arguments made in the submission was that the social welfare system discriminates against farm wives. Such people have no entitlement to PRSI, for example. Although over 40% of farm wives work on the farm, only 3% of them have access to their entitlements in their own right. I would like to hear the Women's Human Rights Project's ideas about what could be done in respect of this issue.

Deputy B. Moynihan-Cronin

I also welcome the representatives of the Women's Human Rights Project. I am delighted we are debating these issues which have been under discussion for many years.

We seem to be making slow progress, but proof of the fact that progress is being made is the number of women who are here today. One-third of my party's Deputies and 40% of my party's Senators are women. As the political parties prepare for the local elections, the difficulties faced by young women who are interested in putting their names forward are evident. I left home to drive to Dublin at 6.45 a.m. today. That is the reality if one does not live in Dublin. It may be different if one lives within driving distance of the Dáil. The provision of child care facilities is a huge issue. Female Deputies of all parties who live far from Dublin deserve great credit. They could not do what they do without the support of their families. If we are serious about attracting women into the political arena, we have to provide the resources. I know we will all be criticised if money is spent on certain things, but I think we have to put our money where our mouth is in respect of child care, for example. The necessary services should be provided.

Being a member of a local authority is almost a full-time job. Perhaps it would be easier for local authorities to arrange their meetings at more humane times than is the case at present. I made such a proposal when I was a member of Kerry County Council, which had just two female members, both of whom represented the Labour Party. What I am saying applies to all political parties. Women parliamentarians on all sides of the political divide agree that they have a very difficult task because of the lack of child care facilities and the lack of support at home.

I would like to discuss the barriers to access to further education. Women who are returning to education do not receive child care funding in respect of their children over five years of age as a result of the cuts in the VTOS programmes this year. Some of the women to whom I refer were preparing to sit the leaving certificate examination. The State entered into a contract with these women when they started a two-year programme of education, but they are unable to complete the courses because the State cut the funding in respect of their children this year. It is unreal that there should be such a lack of planning.

It seems that the Government is deciding to impose certain arbitrary cuts. If we are to be serious about encouraging women to return to education, we have to have a plan that we can fund at all stages. There is no point in funding a plan in the first year, before deciding that it will be funded in part only in the second year. Such practical issues have to be nailed down. I hope they will be dealt with in the budget so that women who are prepared to return to education, many of whom find it very difficult because they have children, do not suffer in this manner again. The decision to which I referred was a serious blow to women trying to return to education.

The issue of female carers is a huge one. We all know that such people are not recognised by society. If they apply for the carer's allowance they are means tested against their spouse's income. They have no independence even though they do all the work. They often have to look after two or three people.

Our hospitals are in a chronic state. It was stated in reports last night that many elderly people in hospital should be cared for in the community. It is women who do all that work but they are no longer prepared to do it unless they are recognised, and I do not blame them. That is another issue; we must be prepared to give recognition to those women who look after the elderly and those in need in our society. That would be one way of relieving the difficulties being experienced in our hospitals. I could talk for another hour on this issue but I will conclude on that point.

Deputy F. McGrath

I welcome the representatives from the Women's Human Rights Project and commend their work which is an essential part of the education agenda for men and women. I particularly welcome the major role they play in terms of educating the broader public because many people believe the equality agenda debate is over. In middle income areas in particular the view is that the battle has been won and the war is over whereas the reality for many poor families, particularly poor women, is that there is a long way to go in terms of equality. Education is the key to equality and liberation.

There is a perception among the broader public, and particularly in political areas, that there is not a sufficient number of women from disadvantaged areas involved in groups like the National Women's Council, the Women's Human Rights Project or other groups. Is that perception correct?

Some 70,000 children in Ireland are living in poverty and many of the women involved in those situations are living in violent, dysfunctional families. For them there is no real hope of equality unless groups like the group here push legislators to do something about it. We have a major crisis in terms of that question. Do the representatives have concerns about those women and their right to safety before we even begin to talk about health care or other such issues? I am talking about the right to safety. That should be the first item on the agenda.

I strongly agree with the comments that we are not a democratic society unless everybody is treated equally, particularly women. I have outlined the reasons we are not a democratic society, given the exclusion of the 70,000 women connected with families living in poverty in this State. Do the representatives have any strategies to assist us as legislators to deal with these issues?

I commend the work of the representatives. They make a massive contribution. The reality is that many people are not aware of the position. For example, 97% of city managers in local authorities are men, 91% of TDs are men and women earn 73% of the average male industrial wage. Many people might not necessarily be aware of these figures, but the figure I would zoom in on is that 42% of women have experienced some form of sexual abuse during their lifetime. This is not acceptable and the public must be made aware that is not acceptable and that it is going on. The genuine feeling among the public on this equality issue is that the war is over.

Chairman

With regard to political representation, the representatives suggested that there is an inhibited male culture. Many of the members have been members of local authorities and they are now Members of the Oireachtas. I note from the report that the success rate of women candidates in the European elections was far greater than their participation rate. Some 33% of successful candidates were women whereas only 19% of candidates were women. That shows that the people who go forward have a good deal of grit and determination. There may be an inhibited male culture in the local organisations but those local organisations in every party are diminishing and they are very small. The numbers involved in Labour, Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil in the 1950s and the 1960s were far greater than the numbers involved in those parties today. There should be an opportunity for women who would organise themselves to become involved in political parties because they are not that many people involved.

It is necessary to address the question of family friendly policies. We are talking about it a good deal but we must do something about it. There is something wrong when fewer than 6% of domestic violence offenders receive a prison sentence. Do the representatives believe that changes are necessary in the criminal justice system to address this problem, aside from the training of judges on gender issues?

The representatives mention that there has not been a referendum on abortion. This has been an emotive issue. We had a number of referendums and they split society to a great extent. By stating this issue is a very important one of the four issues put forward, I wonder whether the representatives are weakening the other three issues in terms of the amount of gunpower they would have to use to do something about those three issues which are vital. I also wonder whether they would alienate a large section of society, women and men, by the attitude that has been expressed towards abortion.

Women's wages are, on average, 30% less than those of men and the gap is widening. Is the gap widening in term of the percentage figure increasing to 31%, 32% or 33% or does that figure represent the absolute amount because increases in pay generally are widening?

Dr. McMinn

I will start by answering the political representation questions. In terms of the barriers to women's representation there are structural and cultural barriers. Specific measures are necessary to redress those within parties such as some mechanisms which would achieve greater equality in both women standing for election and being placed in seats where they are not necessarily bound to fail, and there should be support for women within parties. There are structural and support measures that could be taken.

There has been a voluntary recommendation in Government programmes for a 40:60 gender balance on State bodies that has not been met. It has been a voluntary recommendation and the argument put forward has been that there have not been women to put forward. It has been clearly shown that where there is a political will to do that it can be achieved. We recommend that such gender balance representation be made mandatory. We would also be considering legislation to introduce parity democracy which exists in other countries, particularly in France, to achieve an equal representation of men and women in political parties.

In terms of other issues concerning political representation, young women have difficulties participating in the local elections. We agree with what the Chairman said about unfriendly family practices and that resources are needed for child care. This is something for which we will be lobbying and which we will be highlighting, although there are none so deaf as those who do not want to hear.

Ms Clancy

On the caring issue, one of the disappointments we have with the report is that it makes no reference to the contribution or value of the unpaid work women do in the economy and in the community. In some of the workshops many of the farm women were very angry that they are not recognised and called for reforms in this particular area. They said that they should be entitled to pensions in their own right and that is certainly one of the recommendations we would be calling for in our own shadow report.

When we did our survey, poverty was one of the key issues which came up but we see it as a cross-cutting issue because it affects health and it affects violence against women.

Deputy Finian McGrath raised the issue of connecting with disadvantaged groups. We would see that as crucial. When we were doing our regional workshops around the country there were very few Traveller women and asylum seeker and refuge women represented, and we organised two specific workshops for minority ethnic groups, which are increasingly not only asylum seekers or refugees but also migrant women, who are becoming increasingly marginalised. We would work closely with organisations like Pavee Point, the National Traveller Women's Forum, the Irish Refugee Council and local community development projects on the ground, and feed into the issues emerging at local level.

We need to look at other countries on the issue of gender training. In other countries judges are obliged to undergo different levels of training before they take office and there is nothing to prevent a similar requirement being introduced here. I refer here not only to training around gender sensitivity but also to training on all forms of violence against women and also on anti-racism. That is another recommendation which we will be making to the UN CEDAW committee.

The whole civil and criminal justice system needs to be reformed and the organisations, Women's Aid and the Rape Crisis Centre, have conducted several excellent studies and recommendations have been made on this particular area.

Dr. McMinn

I want to say more about violence against women and the point Deputy McGrath made about the perception that women from disadvantaged backgrounds find things even more difficult. Certainly research shows that 88% of women who do not leave, do so because they have nowhere to go as they are economically dependent. We are keen to promote the indivisibility of human rights in terms of women's economy and social rights as well, obviously, as political and civil rights. Both the Women's Human Rights Project and the National Women's Council of Ireland have prioritised women who are at the margins, and we also have another equality for women measure called In From the Margins which addresses poverty, health and anti-racism for women in very disadvantaged communities, and asylum seekers, refugees and migrant workers are the priority groups with whom we would work.

On right to safety, clearly there is a need for more refuges, but part of a problem is that where there is a lack of housing, women are reluctant to go into refuges if they have nowhere to which they may move on to - if there is no social housing - and that is one of the problems. Not investing in social housing has the knock-on effect of impacting on the lives of women who would be the ones who could not afford to do otherwise than go to a refuge.

Ms. Taylor

To pick up on the question on abortion and reproductive choice, a decision the Women's Human Rights Project has made is that an organisation focusing on women's human rights cannot shy away from the area of reproductive health/reproductive choice and specifically abortion.

In Ireland, an estimated 6,000 to 7,000 women travel to Britain annually for abortion. The only thing stopping this country from having a huge problem of maternal mortality through clandestine abortion is the proximity of abortion available in Britain. That is the position. The cliché has been repeated over and over again, the Irish solution to an Irish problem, but it is certainly not something on which one can say it is a difficult topic and therefore we cannot look at it. It is something very real in the lives of Irish women. The fact that access to abortion in Britain requires the economic resources to travel, puts additional burdens and additional discriminations on economically disadvantaged women.

In terms of debate and discussion around abortion, what we have seen is that since 1983, when Article 40.3.3° was inserted in the Constitution, there have been a number of situations which have arisen which have reintroduced the debate on abortion into Irish politics and discussions in Irish society - the X case, the various referenda on information and travel, the C case and last year's referendum. What is notable is that every time a referendum has put a proposal which seeks to restrict abortion further, in other words, to remove probability of suicide from the category of life threatening situations for which abortion is permitted, the Irish people voted against those further restrictions. In the 2002 referendum the Irish people voted against a series of measures which would have been inserted into the Constitution, the kinds of restrictions on women's reproductive choices and reproductive health which the CEDAW committee has repeatedly said are part of the overall structural discriminations against women.

The CEDAW committee has repeatedly called on countries to remove the criminalisation of abortion for women. It has repeated called on countries, at a minimum, to recognise that threat to the life of a woman is a ground for legal abortion. The referendum last year attempted to restrict those grounds by removing suicide. It is interesting to note that in the report to CEDAW, in the section on article 12 on health, this referendum was described in the following way - it would have introduced legislation intended to ensure that a pregnant woman who was suffering from a life threatening medical condition, could receive whatever treatment she might need. That shows - given the numerous negative impacts that the Human Life and Pregnancy Act would have had on women in crisis pregnancy, and the fact that there is no sign that crisis pregnancies are reducing in number, quite the opposite - there is a need for continuing debate and dialogue in a real and meaningful way. That involves looking at the issue of crisis pregnancy, what is required in terms of education programmes and supports for family planning and supports around crisis pregnancies and what legal measures are needed to ensure 6,000-7,000 Irish women do not travel to Britain for abortion.

Chairman

Some of the members will ask questions.

Deputy Enright

I will expand on some of the questions asked already. My first question is on the lack of consistency among judges in approach and treatment. Can the delegates elaborate a little on what they mean by "approach and treatment"? Is it inconsistency in terms of sentences being handed down or is that included in the term? Does the proportion of between one and six of domestic violence perpetrators, to which they referred, relate to those convicted or to complaints made, or do they know the proportion going to court and the proportion convicted?

Many people mention the issue of child care. A few months ago we were discussing the cost of the cre×che being provided in Leinster House and one Minister of State commented that if one wanted women in politics, one must have a cre×che - which can be a token response. There were six people under 30 elected to the 28th Dáil and I was the only female among them. To the best of my knowledge, none of them has any children or such commitments. The question "why are there not more people of that generation who are not affected by issues of child care?" is one which we need answered because it is easy to state in response that it is a child care issue. Obviously it is far broader than that.

Deputy Moynihan-Cronin mentioned the VTOS programme. I agree that the impact of that programme is already evident. It is hitting home everywhere but from a rural perspective there are obviously additional issues such as transport. The type of isolation being experience in rural areas is probably far different to that being experienced in cities, but obviously there is isolation in urban areas too. Have they studied that area - the participation of women in the context of the urban-rural divide? I think we would find there is quite a difference. On Dáil reform, I wish to discuss the issue of child care. There has been a great deal of discussion about the advent of a five day working week in the Houses. I would like to hear our guests' comments and observations on that because if there is already a barrier for women, aspects of which would include distance, child care, etc., the advent of a five day week may have more negative consequences.

Does the pay gap apply at all levels or is it more apparent at the levels at which people are paid much higher salaries? Certain jobs have definite pay scales and I presume difficulties do not exist in such circumstances. Does the gap apply more at the higher level or is it across the board?

Senator Terry

I welcome our guests to this important debate. I will not repeat much of what has already been said. Poverty is the greatest threat to women's participation in political life or life outside the home. I have stated previously that as soon as a child is born, one can almost determine whether he or she is going to be able to progress through life and be given the various advantages on offer. One of the major issues we need to tackle is that of young single mothers who, in most cases, are struggling to survive and to give their children the best that is available. Unless we tackle the poverty in which single mothers are living, their children, male and female, will also be impoverished and will not be able to participate fully in life in the way we would want. The provision of child care for single mothers, whether they be in full-time education or full-time employment, is a must, but it is not available at present. Child care facilities must be made available to every mother who needs them. The cost of child care is prohibiting many women from going out to work.

We must also consider the issue of part-time work and the institutions that provide it. This type of work is generally taken up by women who are providing cheap labour. The major banks are availing of the use of such labour and that is a matter at which we must look.

I am particularly interested in parental leave. Comparisons between Ireland and other EU countries show that the amount of such leave of which women here can avail is much smaller than elsewhere. While the period of parental leave that may be taken was extended recently, it remains short.

What are our guests' views on mothers in the home, namely, those women who decide to give up their jobs and income in order to remain at home and rear their children for how ever long is necessary? How are such women treated by society? I am aware of the obstacles such women face in terms of trying to return to the workforce. In my opinion, the work done by such women in the home is not recognised. Women are encouraged, perhaps too strongly in some cases, to go out to work at a time when many of them would like to remain at home for a few years to rear their children. How supportive would our guests be of those women?

Deputy Ó Snodaigh

Others have mentioned child care. Many of the child care projects were dependent, perhaps wrongly, on CE schemes. Government policy and the way FÁS has interpreted it has decimated child care and caused a crisis in that area. The fact that an organisation or part of a service is in crisis means that it is not going to attract women. In my area it is difficult to find available spaces in any of the services offered by child care providers. There are a number of new crèches, etc., planned, but difficulties have been caused for mothers, particularly those who are trying to get into the workplace or those who want to return to education. Do our guests believe that the Government is committed to its child care programme?

Reference was made to the Dáil cre×che, which will not even be operational within a year. It might be open for a week next June before being closed again. The cre×che is not aimed at Deputies in general; it is aimed at the huge number of staff who will be working here when the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission takes over the running of the Houses. It is a very small cre×che, involving small numbers. If the Government cannot get it right in its own backyard, how can we expect it to get it right elsewhere?

I wish to provide an example of CE cuts. There was a women's programme in my area for Traveller women who are returning to education. Each of these women has gained some type of certificate in the past year. To give an indication of how marginalised these women are, last year one of them was the first ever from Labre Park to obtain a junior certificate. Each year, those who run the programme have to seek funding or the decision is held over for the entire summer so they do not know whether the programme will proceed. It is difficult for women to have any confidence if every good project that is going well is put on hold for months on end or has no guaranteed future.

Our guests mentioned the 60:40 split on State boards. In my view, this should be reflective of society and should be at least 50-50 in order to make up for many years of under-representation.

I have not had an opportunity to consider the issue of health in detail. I am aware, however, that smear testing is mentioned. I am also aware that when people manage to get smear tests, there are inordinate delays in the results being returned to them. Funding is not being put in place to alleviate the difficulties these people are experiencing. Anyone who has such a test carried out will be worried until the results, positive or otherwise, are returned. It is not acceptable that people are obliged to wait a month for results which should be returned within a day or two.

One of the points made in the document relates to the national women's strategy. Will our guests indicate what is the current position regarding the strategy because we are eight years down the road and there is no plan in place? Who should be involved in developing this strategy and how should it be rolled out to outside interests rather than just being concentrated around the Department? I accept that the answer to my final question is probably how long is a piece of string, nevertheless I will ask it. With regard to our guests' budget, what additional supports do they need? Every group who appears before the committee is seeking such supports but the work this group has carried out to date and the material presented to us is to be commended. I see, however, that there is only one project co-ordinator. Are there any more working for the organisation or how many more are needed?

Deputy Costello

I welcome the Women's Human Rights Project. Many important issues have already been dealt with. However, there are a number of matters to which I wish to refer.

To what extent have the reservations that have been expressed by the Government in a number of areas been dealt with over the years? There were five reservations in 1999 regarding our ability to fulfil the terms of the convention and these were to be kept under review. A specific commitment was made at that time to having a minimum of 40% female representation on each State board. What is the current position in that regard? Is there any forum in which pressure can be put on the Government to adhere to that commitment, which obviously is only honoured in the breach? Not so long ago we were debating the Private Security Services Bill and we tried to get the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to accept an amendment committing to 40% representation of both genders on the board. The Minister would not consider or tolerate it at all and it was ruled out. The old argument came up again, that it would be difficult to get enough women in the security business. To what extent has this commitment been honoured as it is not operating across the board?

The two areas of greatest discrimination against women are in caring for the young and caring for the old. Has the delegation considered a radical approach in those areas? People have indicated the problems that arise. For example, CE schemes were wonderful as stepping stones for lone parents getting into the workforce and many child care services are operated through CE schemes and funded by FÁS but there is an absence of paid parental leave in Ireland, despite European directives to that effect. We have a rather artificial level of primary education, which is funded by the State, for children of four years, but the service for children between two and four is completely inadequate. It is a hand to mouth education service. There are some private Montessori schools but other services exist on the basis of funding becoming available from time to time. Many of the problems associated with child care would be dealt with in one fell swoop if this were addressed.

Tens of thousands of carers, and women in particular, look after the elderly and disabled and often they get very little for that work, apart from the stunting of their own lives and careers. Has abolition of the means test for the carer's allowance been considered? If that were done anyone presenting as available and willing to become a carer, irrespective of whether they are paupers or millionaires, would be welcomed and paid by the State. The current payment is minimal. There is substantial discrimination against women in these two areas.

The delegation's view on the lack of consistency in the Judiciary is correct. Our judicial system is very adversarial in terms of those who are appointed as judges. Barristers and solicitors are suddenly supposed to work in a judicial capacity with no training or induction course, let alone any understanding of the complexity of the issues they will face on the bench. We need a substantial induction procedure for all judges when they are appointed and there should be a monitoring procedure to deal with the lack of consistency and sensitivity. This applies to interaction with women, ethnic groups and so on.

I direct the delegation's attention to legislation mentioned earlier, the Criminal Justice Act 1993, which provided a model in giving statutory rights to the homosexual community. However, at the same time it set women back when it came to soliciting and prostitution. It strengthened the law against women but not against men involved in the same activity; the legislation is good on one side and retrograde on the other, so it could do with examination. Social housing and poverty have also been addressed.

Is the delegation satisfied that the Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination has been covered adequately in the terms of reference of the Human Rights Commission?

Chairman

Some of the Deputy's comments were self-explanatory, so the delegation should just address the questions.

Ms Clancy

The statistic of 6% mentioned earlier relates to those who are convicted, according to my research. As Deputy Costello said about treatment, this goes back to training and the need for understanding the issues. It is also linked to the insufficient resources for programmes to deal with sexual offenders. There are some very good programmes but there are not enough of them.

Deputy Enright

Are treatment of the victims and the fact that these people are not trained influencing the sentences being handed down?

Ms Clancy

Yes.

Dr. McMinn

Poverty and child poverty are issues linked to women's access to education and employment and obviously child care plays a huge part here. We were asked if the gender pay gap exists at all levels. That is quite complex; there have been some studies done of graduates and so on but we also need to look at part-time workers and the fact that women make up the majority of part-time workers, which means lower paid work and different conditions. Also, the majority of those receiving the minimum wage are women, so there are many factors related to the gender pay gap.

We were asked about mothers in the home and those women who choose to stay at home to rear their children. It is important to point out that there is a great diversity of women who choose to stay at home. We are looking at supports for women who do unpaid work in the home, such as caring for children and the elderly. That would require reform of the social welfare system and we are concerned that women do not have economic independence. They are defined within the social welfare system as dependants, based on the model of a male breadwinner, which is unequal. We are looking for a whole range of payments based around social insurance credits and pensions as there are women who had to give up their jobs on marriage years ago who are now suffering poverty as older women. There is a raft of supports there but women who are doing unpaid caring work in the home should be recognised and paid.

Ms Taylor

The National Women's Strategy is an obligation that came out of the Beijing Platform for Action, which was signed in 1995. The Beijing Platform for Action is an international document which takes forward the principles laid out in the Convention of the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women and recognises and identifies the strategies and objectives that are necessary in order to bring forward women's rights and equality in 12 areas. Those areas are linked and they include all the issues we have discussed - women in poverty, female representation, women in health, women in education, violence against women and so on. The Government undertook in 1995 in Beijing to produce a national plan for women but there was no consultation nationally to develop a national plan for women until last year. What was produced was a gathering of ideas towards a national plan for women but there was no strategy that took the actions identified in the Beijing Platform for Action. The platform for action requires resources, recommendations and timeframes on all those actions.

Rather than a piecemeal approach to various programmes and policies that address different aspects of the kind of discrimination barriers that we have looked at, there is a need for a national strategy that pulls all the issues that women face together and looks at concrete measures that will bring forward equality for women. CEDAW, the Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination Against Women, acknowledges that there is a need for special temporary measures, on occasion, to accelerate the equality of women in certain areas. There is a need for Government to take actions that will boost the capacity of women to move into certain areas such as political representation. The CEDAW committee recognises that there is a necessity for 30% representation for women, at a minimum, to have some kind of critical mass. This would give women a large enough presence in politics and representation and challenge the idea, perception, image and stereotype of politics as a male sphere. Political parties must take action and identify, train and support women candidates. There is a need for Government to implement specific measures, such as quotas and targets, to enhance and bring forward women's representation.

We were asked if we were satisfied that CEDAW had been adequately reflected in the Human Rights Commission's terms of reference. As far as we are aware, the commission will make a report to CEDAW and will report on the UN convention. While this is a very positive move we would like the commission to do more. It has the power to make recommendations to Government, to change laws and to introduce legislation that will implement the various human rights agreements and treaties that Ireland has signed up to. While we, as a women's human rights project, can lobby, attend meetings like this and make recommendations, the commission, as an independent body established by statute, can bring greater weight to those recommendations. We would like the commission to take on this task in terms of women's rights.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh asked about the Women's Human Rights Project and its resources. At present we have a co-ordinator and funding is provided under the equality measure for women. We also have the resources of the 13 organisations who were involved. For the project to continue its work we need additional resources. We are currently looking at a range of different funding opportunities. We would be very happy to have this committee's support and representations during this process and in the future.

Chairman

That is a good note to finish on. I thank Ms Noirín Clancy, Dr. Joanna McMinn and Ms Maeve Taylor for coming here today to represent the Women's Human Rights Project and for giving their response to the Government's report on the CEDAW convention. This committee will raise the points outlined by the organisation and our own views with the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform at a meeting that will be arranged very shortly. Representatives from the Women's Human Rights Project are more than welcome to attend the meeting.

We shall now suspend the meeting until after the Order of Business. When we resume we shall consider two motions on Council decisions and an EU scrutiny matter.

Sitting suspended at 4.15 p.m. and resumed at 5.55 p.m.