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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS (Sub-Committee on the Barron Report) díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Nov 2006

Public Hearings on the Barron Report.

We resume our hearings on the Barron report on the bombing of Kay's Tavern, Dundalk, and other atrocities on both sides of the Border between 1974 and 1976. Today we will hear a presentation by the Chief Constable of the PSNI and members of the Historical Enquiries Team which will be followed by a question and answer session.

In our earlier hearings we heard from the families of victims in many of the incidents referred to in the report, as well as other groups and witnesses, some of whom are in attendance in the Visitors' Gallery. I welcome them to the proceedings. We are joined by Sir Hugh Orde, Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland; Mr. David Cox, director of the Historical Enquiries Team, and other officials, all of whom are welcome.

The sub-committee invited the Historical Enquiries Team to attend to assist in our deliberations on Mr. Justice Barron's report. This is the fourth set of hearings and inquiries made by Mr. Justice Barron, the first three of which have proved the form of parliamentary activity in which we are engaged to be vital to looking into events which have cast a very long shadow over the island for more than three decades.

In his report, which the sub-committee has considered carefully, Mr. Justice Barron concluded that the bombing of Kay's Tavern was carried out by loyalist extremists most probably associated with the mid-Ulster UVF. He concluded further that it was likely the attack was carried out on the initiative of a group which consisted largely of UVF members. He determined that the security forces in Northern Ireland may or should have known who was responsible for the Dundalk bombing. Mr. Justice Barron also concluded that actions by the RUC were designed to limit information relating to security forces' collusion in terrorist activity from reaching the public domain, which did nothing to counteract such activity. Without proof as to who was involved in the bombing, he said that allegations of collusion were impossible to prove or disprove.

According to Mr. Justice Barron's report, while the forensic evidence was inconclusive, the nature of the explosives used suggested a possible link between the perpetrators of the Dublin, Monaghan, Dundalk and Castleblaney bombings. He held that the security forces in Northern Ireland received advance warning of an impending attack on Dundalk which was conveyed to the Garda. He said he was unable to establish whether the apparent sighting of the bomb convoy leaving Portadown on the day of the bombing was known to the authorities in Northern Ireland before the attack itself took place. In those circumstances, it was impossible for Mr. Justice Barron to say whether those authorities knew enough to have prevented the attack taking place.

The terms of reference of the sub-committee are to investigate Mr. Justice Barron's report into the bombing of Kay's Tavern in Dundalk for the purpose of making such recommendations in relation to legislative or administrative positions as we consider appropriate. On foot of the Supreme Court decision in the Abbeylara case, we are prevented from making any findings or expressions of culpability against individuals who are not Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that while members of the sub-committee enjoy absolute privilege, such privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. While it is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege, the sub-committee is not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.

I invite Sir Hugh Orde to make his opening remarks, which will be followed by the presentation.

Sir Hugh Orde

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to make a presentation to the sub-committee. The Historical Enquiries Team takes this issue very seriously. I am very proud of our practical contribution to taking responsibility for what happened to police investigations during the Troubles by establishing the HET. Perhaps it is what we do best, involving a task-orientated approach and adopting acknowledged best practice to re-examine unsolved crimes from the past and look at them periodically to determine whether scientific advances or certain aspects of such cases provide opportunities to investigators now which were denied to investigators at the time the offence was carried out.

There are substantial differences between our inquiries team and other police forces. No other police service faces the volume and complexity of unsolved crimes which my organisation does. For the record, 3,268 deaths occurred as a result of the security situation to which everyone refers as "the Troubles". In almost every case, families have questions to which they would like answers. In addition, tens of thousands of people were injured or traumatised who continue to face significant challenges on a daily basis. To be frank, the capacity does not exist to deal with every case in the manner of a traditional police investigation. Many very serious crimes would never have been looked at again, as resources have been unavailable to examine each and every one individually. This is in stark contrast to the time and resources currently being allocated to the full public inquiries in the North.

The Historical Enquiries Team is different for many other reasons. It recognises the likelihood of solving cases in a judicial sense is slight but possible. While the reasons for this are many, they include the obvious ones of witnesses' memory fading over time and, sadly, many witnesses have since passed away or are too infirm to give evidence. There is a clear suggestion that there could be contamination of witness evidence by acquisition post the event, during the following 20 to 30 years depending on when the initial crime took place. Much forensic evidence is missing, while some is clearly contaminated. The forensic science laboratory in the North was blown to pieces during the Troubles. There is still, sadly, a fear that people will feel intimidated if giving evidence in Northern Ireland in these cases. The role of agents is also a matter which is a cause of considerable concern in the North. Even if we were to overcome all these challenges, the abuse of process, no doubt, would be high on the defence lawyers' agenda. The list goes on.

It is hard to imagine the intolerable pressures placed on investigators at the height of the Troubles. The worst year saw 497 people murdered. Even with the resources available to the police at the time, which were substantially more than I currently have, it would have been simply impossible to carry out thorough investigations against that number. Senator Maurice Hayes stated in a newspaper article in the North last year: "It is one thing to sit in a study 30 years later and to apply the cool eye of reason to a chaotic and rapidly changing sequence of events and draw a conclusion that a particular actor should have done A rather than have done B". Thus I am clear that many evidential opportunities lost at the time, sadly, will be irrecoverable today, but that does not render this initiative worthless.

We have consciously shifted the focus to ensure the driving force behind the team's efforts will be to deliver the outcome the families seek rather than the more formal one-dimensional police approach. It is right to say this approach is unique in the United Kingdom policing world. It is equally right to say it will not work for all families, which we recognise and respect. This is another compelling reason for other approaches to be adopted to run parallel to this initiative.

The other fundamental difference is the principle that we refer to as "maximum disclosure". Translated, it means simply that I or David Cox and his team intend to tell the families everything we possibly can about the investigation, its quality, the lines of its inquiry, the number of officers deployed etc., set against a context in which the investigation was carried out. We also intend to seek answers to specific questions put to us by the families before the reinvestigation takes place. While this may seem a simple notion, like everything else in Northern Ireland, it is simply not that straightforward. First, there are some parameters we recognise cannot be broken. Article 2 of the Human Rights Act, for example, will prevent some information being passed to victims' families. Some highly emotive issues are subject to substantial case law that, again, tends to deny families information.

The real bone of contention, certainly in the North, concerns who was and was not an informant. As members of the committee will know better than I, many murders were justified by alleging that the victim was an informant. While this is a very complex area, the law tends towards a clear principle that we do not confirm or deny who is or is not an informant. There are sound reasons for this principle. In legal terms, the obligation to protect other sources is critical to the debate, but wider issues of strategic importance to national and international policing also merit consideration. There is also statute law that seriously restricts access to this sort of information. However, we are also clear that none of those reasons will cut any ice with the families for obvious reasons. In a recent case about which members of the committee may have read, that of Jean McConville, the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland felt it was right to declare that her investigation had uncovered no evidence to suggest she had been an informant and that in her — that is, the police ombudsman's — judgment she had not. It is without doubt the most critical point in her report in allowing the family the new freedom from such an odious allegation that had haunted them for many decades. It also clearly put her murderers in a different place and the Provisional IRA's sick justification for this killing had been somewhat neutralised. This lie having been exposed will cause that organisation substantial difficulty. It needs to face up to its role in history.

Issues concerning informants may merit a review to determine whether there are circumstances in which such information can be disclosed, possibly in a confidential way without offending the wider legal principles or creating difficulties for modern policing methodology. While my mind is not closed to this, it is a finely balanced legal judgment and a matter for the Judiciary rather than for me. The genie is now out of the bottle and the debate will undoubtedly continue.

Difficulties aside, I argue the Historical Enquiries Team is a force for good and tangible evidence that at least we are trying to do our bit in dealing with history. As a result, I sincerely hope we can bring resolution to some more people. I get a bit fed up with the sterile criticisms of this initiative which ebb and flow but I am convinced a majority will recognise it as a genuine and sincere attempt to help. We are very proud of what we are trying to do.

I am equally convinced that the Historical Enquiries Team is only a small part of the overall picture. It is still more a legal justice solution with an incremental shift towards truth recovery than a holistic attempt to draw the line under the past. When I approached government for funding to take this task on — which it supplied — my vision was that we would drive a wider agenda so a range of opportunities within a framework would come on line in a short period. Sadly, that has not happened. That is all I wish to say in my opening remarks. I will hand over to Mr. Cox to make his presentation.

I will talk through the presentation which is about the structure and objectives of the Historical Enquiries Team. This team is a bespoke unit that purely concentrates on examining cases from the period of the Troubles. It is ring-fenced funding from the Northern Ireland Office. It is not abstracted in any way by other investigations. We purely look at the cases from that time.

When we set the team up we set three objectives for ourselves. We very deliberately set at the top, and as our over-arching objective, that we wanted to assist in bringing a measure of resolution to families of victims affected by deaths attributable to the Troubles. The period on which we concentrate is from 1968 to 1998. Those questions can be on any subject. We do not limit those questions to traditional police investigations.

As an example of that I would cite one particular family we met in regard to a death that occurred quite early in the Troubles in the early 1970s. The son who came to see us had never understood why his father's body had been left lying where it was for so long before being recovered by the police. We were able to find quite quickly through contact with the original officer at the time that there had been a suspicion that the body had been booby-trapped and many security measures had to be in place before the body could be recovered. That is an example of answering a family's question. It does not relate to the investigation but it was something that had really worried the family for all that time. We set a wide parameter and we say to families when we meet them that they can ask us any questions about any facet of the death of their loved one and we will try to find answers.

The second objective is that we will do our work to modern, current, professional police standards, as would be expected. We will be thorough, fair and objective in our work. Third, we will try to do this in a way that entertains the confidence of all sections of the community. The Chief Constable has touched briefly on the background reasoning. It was always envisaged as part of a wider process. To be fair, we work quite closely with groups such as the WAVE foundation which is a cross-community charity that supports victims. We also work closely with trauma advisory panels and other bodies that look after the interests of victims, in addition to the interim victims commissioner in the North.

In terms of doing work, somebody had to take the lead and, as far as we know, our work remains the only concrete work being undertaken anywhere for victims. As the Chief Constable said, we have potential to answer questions for some families but we may not be able to help everybody. The extent of the task relates to the 3,268 deaths that were related to the security situation. A total of 505 other murders took place during that period in Northern Ireland but they were attributable to crimes like bank robberies, domestic disputes etc. They will be reviewed if they remain unsolved but the serious crime review team would undertake that work. Our work is limited to the 3,268 victims to which I referred. Those deaths occurred in 2,516 incidents. The original funding for the project was aimed at the Historical Enquiries Team and the Forensic Science Service of Northern Ireland. The promise was made that this ring-fenced funding would be invested in us alone. However, times have changed slightly and it has become a slightly wider project as other interests have emerged, such as a role for the police ombudsman. The timescale over which this money will be released is six years.

With regard to the structure of the Historical Enquiries Team, the slide before the committee shows there is a purple team and a red team. The other boxes on the slide relate to support units for the teams. Of the investigative and review teams — the purple and red teams — the purple team is composed of serving and retired officers, some of whom were members of the RUC and PSNI and some of whom were members of other police forces. The red team is composed entirely of serving and retired police officers who have never worked in Northern Ireland and have had no connection with the RUC or PSNI.

The rationale for this structure is to try to meet the criteria of independence, if a family requests it. For example, if a family states it has no confidence in a case being examined by a person with any connection with the RUC, we can offer a service by using the red team.

The other boxes on the slide refer to civilian staff as well as serving and retired officers. There is a mixture of external and internal staff. If, as in one of the high profile cases we are examining, the family states it has no objection to former RUC officers being involved in the investigation but that it wants external, independent eyes to look at the role of special branch, we can deliver this because we have officers within our intelligence structure with sufficient vetting qualifications to consider all the intelligence but who have never been members of the RUC or PSNI.

The issue of independence is one on which we are often challenged. It concerns Article 2 which deals with compliance as set out by the European Court, whereby an investigation would have to be independent, effective, transparent and prompt. With regard to independence, as far as we can be, we are independent. No staff who were involved in the incidents under investigation are in any way involved in a review. Even those officers on the purple team must sign a declaration that they have had no previous dealings with a case that comes up for review. The members of the red team would never have had contact with such cases in any event.

With regard to the requirement to be effective, the staff of the team are mainly retired police officers, most of whom have over 30 years experience in police investigations, particularly homicide investigations. Using those staff, we have built up a good matrix of experience with which to consider cases. We would be as effective in terms of experience as any other unit I have ever dealt with.

With regard to the requirement to be transparent, we work directly with families and we are committed and determined that families will be the prime movers in this process, which centres on trying to answer their questions. We work closely with them and, if they have representatives — many families come to us accompanied by members of local authorities, Members of Parliament or members of non-governmental organisations — we also work closely with those representatives as well. Our intention is that at the conclusion of this process we will provide the family with a copy of what we call our review summary report, which will detail the work we have undertaken on the family's behalf, what we have found and the answers to the particular questions the family has raised. This accords with the principle of maximum disclosure to which the Chief Constable referred and to which I will return. An independent monitor, who has observed our processes, has been involved throughout the project.

It is with regard to the issue of promptness that we struggle, given that we are the Historical Enquiries Team and, therefore, cannot be very prompt. The European Court recognised in the context of the Finucane case that it is very difficult to carry out historical investigations that would meet this standard. However, our commitment is that we will deliver an objective, fair and thorough review. Our protocols set demands that we do this in a timely fashion and that we keep the families involved promptly informed of everything we are doing throughout the process.

Are we accountable? We hold ourselves primarily accountable to the families. We are operating on their behalf and we seek feedback from them to see how we are getting on.

Operationally, we are an independent unit. I report directly to the Chief Constable and not to any other line of command in the PSNI. That is exactly the same process when I was working on an external inquiry, the Stevens inquiry, before I came to the Historical Enquiries Team. As the Chief Constable is the statutory authority for the investigation of crime in Northern Ireland, all external investigations must report to him in any event. We are no different in that way. That does not mean the Chief Constable has time on his hands to make operational decisions. It means I report to him in terms of accountability.

Through the Chief Constable I report to the Northern Ireland Policing Board. It has been very supportive and interested in our role. It has visited our offices on three occasions and we have given two presentations to its meetings. I am also accountable to the Northern Ireland Office. It wants to know what I am doing with its money. On a two-monthly basis I attend a meeting of the financial monitoring group. There is the inspectorate function of Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary which can inspect any area of policing and publish reports.

A task of this size must be approached in a structured fashion. We thought long and hard about how we would deal with these cases and in what order. Should we start with the most recent, where cases are still fresh, where perhaps there is access to information on computers, and work back, or should we start at the beginning? We decided we would start at the beginning because it is fairest to those people who have waited longest. It allows us to see the developing tragedy in Northern Ireland and understand the nuances of what happened, including tit-for-tat murders, the development of very professional paramilitaries and murder machines. We also pick up the linked series of crimes that follow from those developments.

It seems to be a rule that there have to be exceptions to the rule and we have four. We are as strict as we can be in keeping a chronological list but we do allow exceptions. If the PSNI was already looking at a case, it would be unfair to say to the family that the HET will shut it down until it comes up in the chronological list. The PSNI is continuing with some of its investigations but gradually handing them over to us. In some sad cases, surviving relatives are ill or frail and possibly cannot wait for us to get to them as part of a chronological process. We take a generous view on those applications and will always expedite such cases.

In issues involving serious public interest, only the Chief Constable will direct us to take those cases. To date we have limited those to cases where the European Court has sent them back to the PSNI with instructions that work on them is to take place. With linked series of murders, it makes sense to examine them contemporaneously so that any crossovers, such as a ballistic links, are taken up.

We must have a process to move the cases through in the time we have been given. It is an ambitious process. We try and complete a review in 16 weeks. That allows four weeks for the four phases of inquiry. On top of that there is a collection process which I will speak about in a moment.

We accept some cases will not fit the process. The sheer complexity of some cases will take longer to investigate. We will at least start them and keep families up to date as to why they cannot be completed and where the review stands.

An antecedent to the process is the collection phase. When we began this work, there was no central store in the PSNI. That is no different to anywhere else in policing. In the 1970s and 1980s, very few police forces had any central stores or registries. Most material was stored at local police stations. We had to gather together all the material we could find. We established a team of 33 staff who are still working on this 18 months later. We have physically checked every room in every building within the PSNI for materials relating to cases from this time. This underpins the process in which we are engaged. We have to tell families that we have looked everywhere. It would be a disaster for us if we told a family that we had reviewed everything possible, then gave a professional opinion on what we could or could not do and later said we had found another file. We need to have everything to hand before we start the process.

This also supports other public inquiries for which we have found much material. It is not a cheap option; it costs the best part of £500,000 in time and staff costs. There are some missing files and papers and this has been publicised in the North. Several police stations were blown up several times and the forensic science laboratory was attacked and completely blown up twice, so exhibits and files were lost.

We do not give up when this arises; we go to other sources, and that is our open source requirement, which has become a major part of our business. We seek information from other agencies such as the Court Services, the Public Records Office, inquest files, the BBC and UTV libraries and the Linenhall Library where all the newspapers from the era are stored. We also approach families some of whom have kept material. Their legal representatives often have submissions from families and have made these available to us. Our latest finding is that in 90% of cases we have police material and in virtually every case we have something with which we can work.

The type of material we want to find includes case papers, witness statements, officers' messages and all the material one would expect to be connected to a police investigation such as exhibits. The forensic science services have worked with us on this and we have recovered some 7,000 exhibits from that era which we will be able to examine. The forensic laboratory and the fingerprint bureau also work with us. The Ministry of Defence keeps very good records, as one would expect from the army. Everything is filed in triplicate and it is a good source of information if army personnel were involved in the incident. The security service has been supportive. We have a memorandum of understanding with it to the effect that it will make material available if it is relevant and assists in the investigation of a serious crime. That is within its charter. It is not a major issue for us because the security service is concerned more with issues of state-level intelligence than with individual incidents but it has undertaken to support us if required to do so.

This material has been collected and used with another PSNI objective, setting up a central store. The store is unparalleled; it is huge, secure, and climate and computer controlled. It is hermetically sealed and it is almost impossible to get in to examine material, let alone remove anything.

To underpin the integrity of our process we reviewed the PSNI fingerprint database. There is a computer examination device for automatic fingerprint recognition which checks marks that have been recovered. As that did not exist in the early days we wanted 100,000 marks re-entered on to the new system to be searched using modern technology. This is not cheap because an American company had to come to increase the memory capacity of the machine. There are potential identifications.

I will briefly explain our historical analytical database, the head analysis. It is vitally important in terms of public perception and the confidence of the families concerned that we go back and ensure all these actions are taken.

The computer database I mentioned is where all our material is entered, and it underpins all our work. It struck us that as well as entering the data, we could use this database to undertake analytical work. By utilising the expertise of our staff, most of whom have 13 years' or more experience of detective work, we devised a form to be completed in every case we examine. This form has developed into a 60-page booklet and is used to record all the details we believe may be of use to an investigator in a particular review, such as ballistic linking, descriptions, vehicles used and so on.

We envisage that this database will ultimately have the capability, for example, to list all incidents where a 9 mm pistol was used or where the gunman was described as having red hair. This will be an important development with the capacity to provide a massive amount of information about the Troubles. All the open source material from the time of a particular incident will be appended to its database entry so that a user who opens that case for review will have access to the relevant newspaper coverage and television footage as well as all the analytical offshoots.

Members will see on the screen how information is gleaned from the database in regard to a particular incident. The incident is represented in the centre of the screen, the ballistic links show the other incidents in which the weapons were used and there is further linking, based on intelligence and other sources, in respect of the persons involved. The user can continue to follow the links until, in this example, the last screen allows one to check fingerprints against the crime scene. This process can be followed for any incident. It is a visualisation process that enables reviewers to ascertain what links they should follow and where those links may take them.

The next phases in every review are key and we adhere to what we call minimum standards in this regard. Our assessment of every case we examine begins with the removal of the exhibits and case papers to a site in Sprucefield where they are catalogued and indexed. Initial inquiries are made to our partner agencies such as the Ministry of Defence, special branch or the intelligence service, to discover whether they have any relevant information about the particular case. The open source desk, meanwhile, examines television and newspaper coverage of the time for any information we may further explore. In addition, some 3,000 books have been written about the North, many of which are detailed, and we must go through them and extract any relevant information before approaching the families of the victims.

After the file desk has put together a file on the case, the next steps in the process are particularly important. When we began this work we did not anticipate the need for a team of staff to track the families victims. Some 30 years on, however, some of the people concerned have moved to various parts of the world. Our tracing and first contact desk has become sophisticated in its work and we have a 90% success rate in tracing families. We have built up a memorandum of understanding with other agencies such as social services and Inland Revenue in our efforts to contact people.

When we discover the location of family members, the first contact is difficult but very important. It is undertaken in consultation with our partners in those agencies which look after the interests of victims. It is a case of gently initiating contact with people who may have moved on and put the incident in question behind them. It is also, however, about asking them what questions they have about the case at this stage. It is an important element of our work. The analytical aspect at this stage relates to the establishment of links between this case and others and a decision as to whether it should be assigned to the red team or the purple team.

We allow four weeks for the completion of this phase after which we move to the review phase. Again, we work to minimum standards. There must be a common denominator so that families can be confident we are doing everything we can in every case. We try to find the original case officers if they are still alive and ask if they will talk through their memories of the investigation and, in some cases, the reason for some decisions they made. We have had a pretty good uptake on that from retired officers. In some cases they will not engage because it is too traumatic for them or for other reasons, but in most cases we get at least a letter and in many cases we get a personal contact. They are keen to assist the families. In some cases we have had offers from them to meet families. It is around setting the context of the day. I gave the example earlier about the gentleman whose father's body was left lying there. We can answer questions for families quite early in the process.

The family concerns review — have we answered the questions that the family gave us? This is key work; it is a key principle. The intelligence review boils down to three questions that we ask of our other agencies or our own C3 special branch. Was there intelligence at the time that could have prevented what happened? Was there intelligence at the time that meant it should have been detected, and has any intelligence come in since that now enables us to move on? Those are the three key questions to which we try to get answers.

On the fingerprint and forensic review, everybody is familiar with advances in DNA and laser technology in the area of fingerprinting. This is fine and it is great but we have to be honest with families and we are honest with them. It underpins our approach. We sit down with families at the beginning and say this will work if we have the exhibit and it has been stored properly and we can prove it to a court's standards. There is no point in raising a family's expectation by saying, "do not worry, we will get DNA". If we cannot prove the exhibit, where it has been stored and that it has been properly maintained then any forensic examination of it would be of minimal value. The analytical review is about the use of our database, putting all the material on it and checking if there are links that point us towards examining several cases at once.

The open source review is what have we found in the library. Quite often families in the terrible trauma of the day did not see much of the coverage. Many families have asked if we can find for them copies of press material from the time and we are happy to oblige. The original case papers is a thorough read-through of the investigation papers and statements to see if any opportunities jump out that were missed at the time or could not have been taken at the time. Linking that with a talk to the original case officers one may say there are not many statements on a particular file, and ask if there have been any inquiries in the area. They will say "No, because it took 200 soldiers to get us into the area and they gave us 15 minutes at the scene and then we had to get out, so nobody went to see any of these witnesses". Even after this time, mostly through the help of families, we can identify witnesses and go and see them.

At the end of this we do a review report and that takes us into our next stage, where we find things we can do, a focused reinvestigation stage. We are not resourced and capable of doing full investigations. I cannot start a whole inquiry again, as the Stevens team did on the Finucane investigation. That one case took some six years and several million pounds and a team of 30. It is not practical to do that in every case. We follow the focused lines of investigation that the review has thrown up. We put our money on our best horse, so to speak. We look at what the review has thrown up that we feel may take this investigation forward. There may be many lines and we carry out risk assessments and quality checks. Perhaps five lines of investigation have been thrown up, the first being forensic. If we do the first and it comes back negative it may make the other four of very little value. We constantly try to quality assure the process so that we get the best value out of the money available to us. We keep families updated on what we are doing. We will pursue as many of those lines of inquiry as are viable. That is the reason the arrows point both ways in that book. We can go back to our review panel as many times as necessary when we are sent out to do further investigations.

If investigations bring sufficient evidence we will submit cases to the Public Prosecution Service. We are a police operation and we will put cases for examination by the Director of Public Prosecutions. If there are no evidential opportunities at all or our focused inquiries come to nothing, we move to the resolution process, which we feel is our key business. It is about working with families. We may get some cases to court, although I doubt if the number will be very large. However, in every case we will be able to sit down with families and tell them what we have done. This is a great deal of work for us, and very traumatic. These cases are as real today for the families as they were at the time, and it is very much a challenge. We will presently show a short film culled from recent documentaries and television programmes; members may recognise some of the families involved. They are very moving and extremely touching, demonstrating how things are for our family liaison staff and how we must work through very difficult issues with the families.

If I followed standard policing guidelines, I would have to have 3,268 family liaison officers, but I cannot do that. I have therefore had to develop an alternative structure. We have a small unit of 12 officers who meet the families. We have a pamphlet, some copies of which I believe I have distributed. It is available to families who desire information about us. The individual case officers come from our teams, and we try to build up a rapport with the families. As I said, at the end of the process, we will give the families a copy of our investigation report.

The film does not seem to be working, so I will talk members through the resolution process. We may be able to return to the film shortly. Meetings with families and their representatives are a key area for us. Over four weeks, we work through what we have found with the families. In many cases representative groups accompany them. They have strongly supported the families and have been very fair with us. They have not always accepted that we were the ideal solution, but they have taken the view that the families whom they represent will at least get some service from us, and have steered them our way. It revolves around whether we have answered the families' questions and whether there are any others. We evolved the resolution strategy with partners such as the trauma advisory panel. If there are further issues that require to be addressed in a more professional manner than the support that we can offer a family, we can pass them on to such groups.

The principle of the maximum disclosure of information is key, and we can answer most questions in most cases. It is a matter of being honest with families and, where there are constraints, making the common-law presumption of innocence. We cannot ethically name those who we feel might have been involved; we must have evidence. Concerns for agents' identities, the right to life, and the Security Service Act 1989, which limits the use of material for the investigation of crime, are some of the constraints. However, they will be an issue only if we are worried that we might have uncovered the role of an agent. In most cases, that will not arise. If we find one, that does not stop us looking. We still look, and if we find criminal behaviour by an agent, none of the Acts offers any protection to him or her. The person would be investigated like any other, and if convicted, names and details would be a matter of public record in any event.

In terms of the headlines, we have managed to set this team up and have it operational within 12 months. We are working on 320 cases out of which we have managed to find 284 families. The families' interests are of great political interest in terms of the peace process as it is seen at the moment. However, we have also catalogued the types of questions. We have received some 750 types of question. I believe the Chairman touched on the matter in his opening remarks. There are many more queries than just who is the person responsible. That is now always the question we get. It is not often the question asked. The questions revolve around the minutiae and whether it was a good investigation and worries that the families have. That is what we try to address.

As regards other issues, we have moved on the fingerprints in the search. The funding issue is a major matter for us. I am sure it is known that, in terms of a project of this scale, there is not a vast sum of money available. However, I have enough money at present and we are not constrained from starting our work. We are pressing on and we keep the issue at the forefront of what we are doing.

I apologise for the fact that we did not manage to see the video. However, the conclusion I would offer is that this is a unique enterprise in world policing. We have not found anything similar anywhere else from which we can either take ideas or learn. It is an imaginative attempt to try to do something in the context of achieving resolution for some families. It demonstrates the commitment of the Government and the PSNI to move on in this area. It has been a catalyst for engagement with some groups and it may perhaps be expanded to form part of the wider process. Our motto is to be different and to make a difference for all the worthy families that waited for so long for somebody to try to help them.

I thank Mr. Cox. I apologise with regard to the video. I do not know where the glitch occurred. However, the information provided in the presentation more than makes up for any minor matter with which we have not dealt.

I commend the British Government and the PSNI for putting the Historical Enquiries Team, HET, in place. It is a great initiative and will be very helpful to the families regarding the trauma and pain they have suffered during the past 30 years. I hope that, in some way, its work will help to minimise that pain.

The sub-committee has dealt with four different Barron reports. The main issue with which we are occupied at present — it came even more to the fore in the most recent report — is that of collusion. We are also occupied with matters relating to the intelligence services. Questions arise as regards the independence of the HET in the context of members who formerly served in the RUC.

What level of access does the HET have to intelligence files? Does it ask the intelligence services for information or can it access the archives and search for information? As regards the knowledge and information held by the intelligence services, has the HET asked them, on a general basis, to provide full information on any intelligence matter that might relate to any of the 2,516 different episodes and atrocities that occurred?

I will return to the matter of independence later. Perhaps Sir Hugh Orde might respond on the question of intelligence, which, as far as we are concerned, is extremely important in the context of collusion.

Sir Hugh Orde

The first point to remember is that the vast majority of material in respect of the HET is held under my control. We were the lead for national security. All the material that was shared is still stored within my systems and the Historical Enquiries Team has total and unfettered access to those systems. A great deal of material belonging to other agencies is under our control in the first instance. Mr. Cox might like to comment on the relationships we have with other agencies.

In that regard, the Notre Dame report's authors stated that they had a meeting with Sir Hugh Orde and they were given to expect substantial co-operation on documentation, but they stated that none of the documents subsequently requested by the panel was made available.

Sir Hugh Orde

There are a number of points on that, one of which is that the Historical Enquiries Team is something we set up to deal with our responsibility as we saw it. There are a number of self-appointed groups who are pursuing specific issues — single issue cases, perhaps, or some that are slightly more complicated. I do my very best to meet every one of them, be they self-appointed from the United States, self-appointed in Europe or set up by some non-governmental structure to look at a specific case. I meet as many as I can and I share as much as I can.

I was slightly surprised by the final report. I did not have an opportunity to comment on its contents before it was published so what was and was not agreed is still a matter for debate between me and that organisation.

The points around limitations are clearly made. There are some things we simply cannot share because our legal obligations and stated cases, case law and European law say we cannot. There I find myself fettered. That is our only limitation. If we can share it, certainly with the Historical Enquiries Team, I will.

The Historical Enquiries Team has to have primacy. It is our, not other people's, responsibility to investigate these crimes and I am not going to second-guess my cases by handing some material willy-nilly to organisations, some of which have a very independent view and some of which are trying to prove a hypothesis rather than look at it from an independent stance.

Sticking to the intelligence issue, the whole question of a linked series of murders, referred to by Mr. Cox, the patterns of violence and the possible connections between those individual cases, seems to us important from the point of view of the possibility, or probability at this point, of collusion in the early 1970s in particular. What is being done in that regard by the HET?

Sir Hugh Orde

I will ask Mr. Cox to deal with the detail of it. In terms of linked gangs, I spoke at Queen's last night on the wider issues around how we bring the past to some form of closure, and the point that taking up one piece of the past and playing it off against other pieces of the past actually further complicates the process.

In terms of linked series, first we need to remember the very important point that the vast majority of people murdered during the Troubles were murdered not by the state but by loyalist paramilitaries and republican paramilitaries. If one is looking at linked series of crimes, what one will find very much is that organisations from both sides became very good and sophisticated at what they did. They were very good killing machines. Many loyalists I have spoken to will say clearly they did not need the Government to commit murder. They were as good as PIRA killing machines. That is what they got organised in.

The value of this inquiry team is that it has access to the whole picture because it has obviously moved on. It also has analytical tools and capability that senior investigating officers in the 1970s and 1980s had no chance of using because they were not invented yet and also because they were so busy — a point I made is that there were some 490 murders in one year — and were dealing with issues piecemeal. One of our big strengths is that we can now link these series of crimes and then work on them in a linked series. That applies across the piece, be it a paramilitary organisation or a state organisation. That is the opportunity we have got. Mr. Cox may want to touch on a bit more detail.

Just to deal with the mechanics of the Chairman's question, the vast majority of the material that we want to examine is held by our own organisation and we, the HET staff, carry out that examination. In terms of other agencies, the Ministry of Defence has a tribunals and inquiries unit which works quite closely with us and the British army has set up its own historical team simply to work and provide us with the information that we ask for. It is not just around intelligence. It helps us very much in tracing relatives of victims who were soldiers. In terms of intelligence, it makes its material available to us in the same way for examination.

The security service has its own role and its own structures and requisites to examine their material, but we have arranged with it a memorandum of understanding. If the security service holds material on a case on which we are working, it notifies us that it is a case on which it has information. Our appointed and nominated staff who hold the required developed vetting category — they must be cleared to a security level — go to the security service and are allowed to examine the material in situ. We look at it.

As the Chief Constable said, collusion is one part of the linked series but we accept it is an important part. We have experience of dealing with such cases in the Stevens inquiry. The HET is an evolutionary concept and we are looking at how we can take these cases forward. They do not fit the structure I outlined very well because its assessment and review phases are pitched at looking at whether there are individual evidential opportunities rather than whether this is a case of state involvement and, if so, at what level. A different type of investigation is, therefore, needed.

We are working on establishing a third team which would probably be based in London. It would be largely analytically driven and examine the collusion issues. The reason it would be based in London is it would have external staff and additional independence. We would take the material to London to be examined because of the cost of bringing staff over. Flights, houses, food, drink, power, etc., must be paid for; for example, the red team costs almost half my budget per year. I could not set up another independent team in Ireland. We are looking at taking the work to where we can get quality staff. Their work would be based on an analytical process using our database and taking advantage of whatever we could, with access to intelligence to try to find the answers in those collusion cases.

I thank Mr. Cox. Members will be called in the following order: Senator Cummins, Deputy Howlin, Deputy Hoctor, Senator Walsh, Deputy Finian McGrath, Deputy Ó'Snodaigh and Deputy Ó Fearghaíl. I would like to finish within an hour. It would probably be best if each member asked a number of questions during his or her contribution.

I welcome the Chief Constable and Mr. Cox and his team. Many of the families are placing a great deal of faith in the HET's work. As Mr. Cox stated, the team was the first contact point with somebody connected to the police force since many of the crimes were committed. It is a source of satisfaction that, at last, somebody is attempting to sit down and listen to what families have to say and, one hopes, offer them closure.

We are dealing with the Barron report which dealt with collusion. Mr. Cox has mentioned that various crimes will be linked in the HET's investigations. We have discussed the Glennane incident during which there was obvious collusion between the RUC, the UDR and the British army and the murder gang in the area. When the HET makes its report, will it link the activities of this gang and others where similar crimes are involved? How does Mr. Cox intend to address in his report the links between various crimes? The Chief Constable has mentioned there are possible opportunities for prosecution. How far will the PSNI press these cases with the Director of Public Prosecutions if there is an opportunity to do so?

Sir Hugh Orde

I will deal with the prosecution question and ask Mr. Cox to touch on how we will report. That is what police forces do. The principle behind setting up the team in the first instance was that we would do what the police force was expected to do, that is, prosecute people for committing criminal offences. We are not starting with the view that it cannot be solved. Rather, we are starting with the question of what we can get with what we have. Recognising the reality and being up front about it, it is my assessment that we will not be fortunate enough to involve many people in the process. If we did, that they would serve minimal sentences is neither here nor there. If we can do it, we will.

Forensic evidence has potential and we recognise the issues. Technology has moved on significantly. If there are cases where we get new evidence through forensics, it will give us a considerable chance. Mr. Cox touched on how some people who were not interviewed for all sorts of reasons that we may not be able to explain and understand may be prepared to speak to us more than previously. Frankly, we are not seeing a large amount of this, which does not surprise me, but we will take what we get to the Director of Public Prosecutions. Regularly, I meet the director to discuss cases. We are keen to pursue cases in this way. Our starting point was the quick realisation that we need to be more inventive.

I will not comment on specific investigations, but the investigative process is different in cases of collusion. This is the reason we are determining whether to set up another team. Our initial contract is with families and revolves around reporting back to them on what we have found and the answers to their questions. It has been our commitment to them not to go to the press or the public with what we find unless they want us to do so. If they wanted to take the report to the press and make an issue of its contents, it would be a matter for them. We would either support them or, if they were wrong in their statements, correct them.

This does not mean that if we are examining an issue such as collusion, we will not make a public report. I would report my findings on such a matter to the Chief Constable, who would be obliged to report to the Secretary of State. It is as simple as that. There are different types of investigations. The majority of cases involve the team working for families on a private, almost contractual basis, but where we examine wider issues that touch on the involvement of other agencies of the state, I would report to the Chief Constable. There would be a report as opposed to an individual case finding.

I join in the words of welcome for Sir Hugh Orde, his team, Mr. Cox and others because their attendance has historic resonance of its own. There was a time when it was difficult to get the Garda Commissioner to appear before committees.

The Commissioner always appears when requested.

I said "there was a time".

Recently, but not at present.

In the context of historical inquiries, it might be an appropriate comment. There is a sea change in accountability, availability and openness, which is helpful in a broader context.

I join the Chairman in saying that the work of the Historical Enquiries Team comprises an important body to which everyone on the island pays a great deal of attention. I will focus on the work assigned to this sub-committee. I am an interloper; I am not a member of the committee. The issue in question was pointed to by the Chairman in his reading of the Barron report's conclusions in respect of the Kay's Tavern bombing on 19 December 1975. Mr. Justice Barron determined that the security forces in Northern Ireland may or should have known who was responsible for the bombing. Further, he concluded that the actions of the RUC were designed to limit the information relating to the security forces' collusion in terrorist activities that reached the public domain.

The Chief Constable could be of assistance to the committee in terms of this nub issue. From documentation given to the committee, we know that in August 1997, the Department of Foreign Affairs was given information by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to the effect that four members of the UVF in the Portadown area were members of the RUC. It was Mr. Justice Barron's conclusion that members of the UVF from the Portadown area had been involved in the bombing. In August 1975 that information was passed to the Northern Ireland Office. We do not know specifically what evolved; we only have what is on the public record.

Is the work of the Historical Enquiries Team entirely focused on crimes committed within the territory of Northern Ireland or will there be a role for the new team to examine the broader issue of collusion, involving members of the former RUC in particular, in criminal activities, either within Northern Ireland or this jurisdiction? How will this issue be addressed?

Sir Hugh Orde

I have no jurisdiction in this State and if I were to suggest I had, I suspect the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Noel Conroy, would be in the door very quickly. The principle on which the Historical Enquiries Team was established was to deal with every single crime committed within Northern Ireland. We recognised early on that there would be substantial links because, sadly, people did not kill just one person during the Troubles. That applies across the board. When I agreed to attend this meeting, I made it clear that the purpose would be to inform the joint committee about our processes, rather than comment on individual cases, on which I am slightly limited in what I can say in answer to the more detailed questions members have asked.

That is accepted and understood.

Sir Hugh Orde

Let me reassure the committee. We had no intention of sidelining one particular type of crime or another. Mr. Cox has explained the system. We are starting at the beginning and will go through all cases. If in a particular one we uncover something which can be loosely described as collusion, to use Judge Cory's definition which was very widely drawn and included commission by omission and malpractice such as the feeding of information, we will pursue it.

A reality check is necessary. The inquiry team is determined to bring closure — perhaps "resolution' is a better term — to as many people as possible, recognising that it will not be perfect. We have said very clearly that this will not provide an overall solution and will not deal with every event that took place. It will be an incomplete attempt to deal with the past but is a genuine and sincere attempt to bring as much as we can to as many as we can. Mr. Cox will provide more information on the specifics.

Sir Hugh Orde has actually covered most of the matter. The concept behind the new third team, known as the white team, was to address issues that did not fit into the process as I set it out. We were not set up to examine the issue of collusion but to try to help families. The collusion cases are very worrying and involve a number of the deaths under investigation but there was no collusion in the case of the vast majority of victims. There are thousands of unrepresented families who have suffered from a lack of information and the team was set up to put this right. However, we have come across such cases, as we expected we would and perhaps sooner than we expected, and tried to evolve a structure that will enable us to carry out investigations into that aspect of a case, as well as help the families for whom we are trying to work.

I welcome Sir Hugh Orde and Mr. Cox and his team. I have questions relating to the farm at Glennane. Is information available to Sir Hugh Orde which he can share with us on the number of acts of terrorism perpetrated using that farm between 1976, when the activities engaged in there became known to the RUC, and 1978, when the RUC actually acted on the information and made arrests?

Again, without going into specifics in particular cases, we work with many interested parties in this field, including families' representative groups which have undertaken some very detailed investigations of their own and made information available to us which has been of great assistance to us as we set up our team. However, as we have not concluded any of our investigations, I do not wish to comment on specifics in the case to which the Deputy refers.

Our questions are quite specific because we have worked on this in detail. With regard to the alert about the bomb that exploded at Kay's Tavern, the warning issued by the RUC to the Garda Síochána and the letter that followed, are such documents and details available yet to be examined? Is Mr. Cox aware if such documents are available, including information about the checkpoints and the number of people who manned the Border with that information to hand?

Before Mr. Cox answers, the witnesses have come here to discuss the Historical Enquiries Team and they might not be up to speed on every case, particularly the Kay's Tavern case. If they can reply with those limitations, that is fine.

That type of material is exactly what the team would focus on. We would be looking for that and trying to get the details. It would form the core of our work and underpin the process of establishing collusion. Those are the types of things we would be looking for. Whether all that is available to us I am not in a position to say at present.

Is it that you have not arrived at that position or that you will never be in a position to say it?

I should be in a position to say whether it is there but we are not at that stage yet. That case is part of a wider series that we will undertake with the white team but that white team is not yet in being.

The white team is dealing with collusion?

It is the third collusion team we are setting up in London.

I have a list of 11 or 12 questions, so I will ask them together. I am surprised at the last answer because the Glennane gang was involved in an enormous number of atrocities. There is a list of them in the report on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. It totals 15 murders and they involved RUC reserves, RUC full-time personnel and the UDR. It would be astonishing if Mr. Cox had not yet looked at that. Would it be the case that Mr. Phil James has, in fact, examined the activities of that gang? His absence from this meeting deprives us of the opportunity to get relevant information about that.

The Chief Constable mentioned that the team has access to the intelligence within the RUC. MI6 was under the control of the Foreign Secretary and MI5 was under the control of the Secretary of State at the Northern Ireland Office. Has the HET unfettered access to their files? If so, can the Chief Constable outline what level of co-operation the team is getting and if anything has emerged with regard to some of the activities we are examining?

I appreciate that the witnesses might not be in a position to answer on specific details but could the Chief Constable do the committee the favour of responding to our questions in writing or perhaps making somebody available to the committee who would be able to give us the information on the questions the witnesses cannot answer today?

Were there informants within the Glennane group? If so, how many? By whom were they controlled, the British army or people within the RUC? To whom did they report? Mr. Colin Wallace had a list of people whom he was excluded from investigating, presumably because they were informers and were controlled by other agencies or, as happened in the case of the owner of the Glennane farm, were RUC personnel. Are there any such inhibitions on the HET with regard to the investigations it is undertaking at present?

With regard to the Rock Bar case——

Do you wish to reply, or do you wish to hear all the questions together?

Sir Hugh Orde

If it goes on much longer, I will forget the first one.

I am anxious to include my question about the Rock Bar case. Perhaps the Chairman will return to me.

Sir Hugh Orde

We did not set this up as an attempt to cover up or to show some activity that meant nothing. We set it up in a sincere attempt to make a difference where no one was making a difference. As a consequence, many people have chosen to criticise it because it is not perfect. I sense the frustration of those who expect it to be a perfect process, but it is not and we must be clear about that. It will deal with some of the issues, but not all and will not satisfy some of the families. I met a lady last night who suffered a loss 34 years ago and she told me unequivocally that whatever we do, we will not solve her issue. However, that does not mean we will not try.

In terms of whether I can give the committee specific answers to specific questions, the answer is clearly "No". I cannot, not today. I will look at what we can provide in written form, subject to the constraints I summarised in my opening remarks. As far as information and intelligence is concerned, the majority of it is under my control. Even material that belongs to other agencies is under my control. It always was. It all went into a number of legacy systems that we own. We can search all of that.

In terms of the specifics on MI5 and MI6, I will ask Mr. Cox to explain the memorandum of understanding we have.

On whether I can give the committee an absolute assurance I am getting everything, I cannot. No chief constable would be that foolish because someone may have taken something away. We have already made the point that in terms of the information we have available to us, some stuff is missing. Some people will say that is mischievous; others will say it is accidental. If I were to look for a 30 year old file in the metropolitan police, where I worked for 25 years, I could not say, hand on heart, I would find more than 10% of it. The honest answer is I do not know, but I can say that not everything is sinister.

I will ask Mr. Cox to deal with the specific issues around MI5 and MI6. I find it difficult to answer questions about cases we have yet to research.

There is no reason to be concerned about the absence of Mr. Chambers; he has other commitments today and could not make it. He is my deputy and reports to me and I am as focused on the issues as he is, on the work of establishing this third team. We were not set up to deal with Glenanne but to meet the families. Glennane has come into the process and we are devising a structure by which we hope to be able to deal with it.

In terms of the memorandum of understanding, we have been to the security services and have an agreement. I provided the detail of how we go about looking at the material they have. They are constrained, by their charter and the Act of Parliament that set them up, to limit the supply of their material. As far as they can, they assist us. The material can be used to assist in the investigation of serious crime if it is relevant and that is the only reason it can be used. The provision is not designed to make material available to answer families' questions, so that is an issue for us. However, if the matter concerns taking a serious crime investigation forward, we get the utmost support and have written agreements with them and a process by which we look at their material.

The Rock Bar case is mentioned on page 259 of the Dublin-Monaghan bombing report and the evidence showed that those who arrived in a car were on a common enterprise. Four were prosecuted, two got suspended sentences and one got a custodial sentence. The person who received the custodial sentence was already serving a life sentence. Mr. Justice Barron's report raises serious questions about collusion not just within the security forces, but within the judiciary. Does the PSNI remit extend to investigating members of the judiciary who may have been involved in collusion?

I refer to the lack of co-operation from the Police Service of Northern Ireland. When did Sir Hugh Orde take up the position of Chief Constable?

Sir Hugh Orde

On 1 September 2002, but it seems much longer.

In November 2002, the PSNI furnished Mr. Justice Barron with answers to questions he had raised. In that regard, he said that follow-up inquiries on the 1978 arrests had yielded very little and, in particular, allegations of collusion had not been answered properly. Ballistic information which he sought was denied and despite repeated requests there was no co-operation on that score from the RUC, or PSNI as it was then. With regard to the bombing of Kay's Tavern, efforts were made to establish where the car used had been stolen. It was reported as stolen from a street in the Shankill Road area. We would like to know the name of that street.

Follow-up inquiries were made by Detective Inspector John Courtney and Detective Sergeant Eoin Corrigan who were told in Belfast by the RUC that they would not be allowed to interview a detective constable who might have been of assistance to them.

Page 142 of the report on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings refers to RUC Sergeant William McCaughey who was prosecuted in connection with an offence.

I have asked the Senator to refrain from naming people in public before the sub-committee.

He named three colleagues who had been involved with him in committing a crime. Of the four, two were prosecuted and two were not. One of those who was not prosecuted was a man whose name has featured in all the reports we have received from Mr. Justice Barron and who was a serial murderer associated with the Glennane gang. What investigations, if any, are being conducted by the Historical Enquiries Team in that regard?

We have information that in 1977 the RUC was in possession of the names of the people who had murdered Seamus Ludlow. However, the names were only relayed to the Garda in 1979. What caused the delay?

The Chief Constable declined a number of prior invitations to appear before the sub-committee. His refusals may have been made at the direction of the Northern Ireland Office. On this occasion I think he sought permission to meet the sub-committee and the NIO agreed. Why did he not appear before the sub-committee when we were making our more substantive inquiries, given that he could have assisted us in our work?

Sir Hugh Orde

I find it somewhat difficult to deal with individual cases because that is not the reason we are appearing before the sub-committee. We have come to describe a process and the genuine reasons we implemented it.

Sentencing is a matter for judges, not, sometimes to my regret, for the Chief Constable. I cannot comment on the length of sentences handed down because it would be entirely inappropriate for the Chief Constable to do so. As in this jurisdiction, our judiciary is independent.

Anybody who has committed a criminal offence, regardless of whether he or she is a chief constable or in some other profession, is amenable to prosecution should our inquiry team find evidence. The nature of a person's profession does not detract from our ability to pursue cases. The Senator should rest assured that if we find evidence against anybody, we will pursue it.

I was asked a number of questions on individual cases which, as I said, I cannot answer. For example, I only joined the Metropolitan Police service in 1977. Therefore, I cannot explain why information may not have been passed on until 1979. This is one of the big problems in dealing with history; we are never going to reach a universal and clear understanding of everything that occurred during what has been described as an extremely dirty war lasting 34 or 35 years. We are trying to go as far as we can for as many people as possible. I accept that in respect of some of the more difficult cases it is reasonable to predict that we will not reach the point where the HET will be best fitted to deal with them. Likewise, having spent many years with Mr. Cox on the Stevens 3 team, I am aware that major investigations into events in Northern Ireland which cross the divide rather than deal with particular facets of the Troubles will not happen. That is a reality check. As I pointed out yesterday, we need to look at other ways of bringing closure because I do not think this process will find a solution for everybody. If there are specific questions members believe my organisation has failed to answer to their satisfaction and they are forwarded to me, I will do my level best to deal with them. I can be no more forthright than that. I have always spoken to anyone who is interested in policing in Northern Ireland. I have no intention of changing that. That is why I am happy to come before the sub-committee this afternoon.

We very much appreciate your attendance.

Sir Hugh Orde

I am beginning to regret it slightly.

I do not think so. Does Mr. Cox wish to add to that?

The only comment I would add to what the Chief Constable has outlined concerns the particular case of Ludlow that was mentioned. The Historical Enquiries Team is the mechanism by which the PSNI now supports current Garda Síochána investigations into historical inquiries. We have established very good links with the Garda. I meet senior officers from the Garda on a regular basis and the Chief Constable is in frequent contact with the Commissioner. Those issues, therefore, are addressed bilaterally between the HET and the Garda Síochána.

I welcome the representatives to the committee and thank them for attending. First, on the collusion issue, having listened to the tone and the reaction of some members, do the representatives understand the feelings of citizens, victims and taxpayers when they hear the word "collusion"? They are talking about police officers and soldiers involved in acts of violence and terrorism. Do the representatives understand the hurt and anger, particularly on the part of the families, in respect of this issue? Mr. Cox said that the vast majority of the cases do not involve collusion. However, is the collusion issue being taken seriously? Many people take it seriously?

Second, the representatives talked about the constraints on the agents. Some of those agents were involved in violence. How can they convince the victims of these atrocities that they will handle their cases, both as a Chief Constable and a police officer and from the HET point of view, fairly and objectively?

My third question is for Sir Hugh. In today's PSNI, how would he deal with officers involved in any types of acts of violence? Fourth, how would he convince me, as a taxpayer and an Irish citizen, or a person from the Falls Road or Crossmaglen, that his police force is fair, objective and impartial? Are there any circumstances or situations in the past or the present where senior police officers can turn a blind eye to acts of violence from members within their force? What level of confidence does the Chief Constable have, particularly from the Northern minority, in regard to policing the new PSNI?

On the funding for the HET, Mr. Cox mentioned a figure of £24.3 million. What is the primary source of funding for the HET? The international panel of independent human rights experts, which dealt with cases on issues of collusion, stated that in 24 of the 25 cases, it found significant and credible evidence of involvement of police and military agents of the United Kingdom, both directly and in collusion with loyalist extremists. How does Sir Hugh respond to that both from a HET point of view and as Chief Constable?

If we do not face up to the reality of dealing with the issue of collusion, and if we do not address the issue of truth and justice for the victims, the peace process will be unable to develop. I welcome the appearance of the Chief Constable and Mr. Cox and the fact that they are prepared to get involved in the debate but we need truth and justice for all the families. Only then can we move on as part of the peace process.

Sir Hugh Orde

I was asked if I understand collusion. Yes, I do. I spent three years or so on the Stevens team examining cases where collusion was the main allegation. I was with Lord Stevens when he said there was collusion. I understand collusion. Let us be clear about what I mean by "collusion". I will quote from the Cory report, which states: "There cannot be public confidence in Government agencies that are guilty of collusion or connivance in serious crimes". It also states:

[T]he definition of collusion must be reasonably broad when it is applied to actions of these agencies. This is to say that [the army and] police forces must not act collusively by ignoring or turning a blind eye to the wrongful acts of their servants or agents or by supplying information to assist others in committing their wrongful acts or by encouraging them to commit wrongful acts.

This is Lord Stevens's understanding of collusion.

The Deputy is correct that the vast majority of cases probably did not involve collusion. However, that means nothing to the families concerned with cases in which it was an issue. We understand this and that is why we are taking the families seriously.

The issue of agents was raised. There are no constraints in this regard. If anyone steps outside the law, he or she will be dealt with. One of the first steps I took when I took over as Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland was to review every single agent. Let us be clear that every police service has agents. The Garda Síochána will have agents and informants and I would be amazed if it did not.

One cannot protect communities if one does not have agents and informants. If the Garda Commissioner and I jointly offered to protect the island of Ireland from international terrorism, we would need informants and agents. This is a brutal reality of policing, although it may not be nice. It is a question of how one controls and supervises the agents and ensures the process operates within the law.

The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, of which members may well be aware, is a significant Act that legislates for how informants are to be handled. It is very clear in stipulating that if an informant steps outside his or her authorised brief or acts in a criminal way, all bets are off. It is as simple as that. He or she will be prosecuted. There is no immunity for agents. In law, no one can offer immunity to any member of the public, regardless of whether he or she provides information to the police. It may not be in the public interest to prosecute someone who plays a minor role in an attempt to frustrate a serious crime. That is different and is done under control.

The levels of authority are high and extend to Assistant Chief Constable level and my level. If people seriously believe I will not deal with agents in my organisation operating outside their authority, they are clearly mistaken. Let me be unequivocal in saying so.

As a result of the informant review we undertook very shortly after I took over and a recommendation from the Stevens 3 inquiry, in keeping with the complete reorganisation of how we manage serious and organised crime in the North, a number of agents were "decommissioned", for want of a better description. They were of no value to me. A police force cannot have people who are suspected of the most serious crimes providing information, regardless of the value of such people. It is a very difficult balance to strike when one considers some of the great evils they have the capacity to prevent.

A decision on an informant requires a judgment call at the most senior levels of my organisation. Decisions on supervision are also made at this level. An informant providing information on local burglars, for example, would be handled at a lower level. If an informant is providing information at the most dangerous end of our businesses, he is supervised at the most senior end of my business. This is non-negotiable. I assure the committee that if any agent steps outside the rule of law, he or she will be dealt with.

Was that the position 30 years ago?

Sir Hugh Orde

The Deputy asked about now.

Was it the same then?

Sir Hugh Orde

No, it was not; nor was it the same in the Metropolitan Police Service. There are many reports and stories in this regard which suggest circumstances were absolutely different. I will not bore the Deputy with the details. The Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, Nuala O'Loan, is producing a report that will explain in more detail the unsatisfactory nature of some of the activities of the past. Let us wait and hear what she has to say. The report is to be published soon.

Any police officer who steps outside the law to enforce the law is taking the first step on the road to anarchy and we do not tolerate this. We have the most independent and effective police complaints system in Europe, if not in the world. It is certainly better than any I have seen in America. It is truly independent and the Office of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland is a truly independent organisation. The ombudsman investigates, as of right, any police shooting or deployment of the AEPs. She deals with every complaint independently and has not referred a single complaint back to us for investigation, as the legislation allows. She undertakes every investigation herself. The reports her office publishes demonstrate the independence of her inquiries.

There was a reference to taxpayers' confidence. Every community, be it in Crossmaglen, Shankill or the Falls Road, must have confidence in policing. Many disadvantaged and disenfranchised communities have less confidence in policing, regardless of which part of the divide they come from. We have to be judged on what we do and how we behave and how my officers behave when they deal with people on a daily basis. That is how one builds confidence in policing. We are experiencing increased access to communities which historically may not have had the confidence to call us. Deputy McGrath mentioned Crossmaglen, for example. Calls to the police in Crossmaglen have increased by 100%. Crime in Crossmaglen has not increased by 100% — reported crime there has increased by 100%. People are telling us about it. We are now dealing with the sorts of issues in some communities which historically we would not have been allowed to deal with. I believe in the value of stories and anecdotes and we get many of them from people in republican communities where officers have made a difference. Such people are judging us on what we do now. I think more and more people are judging us on what we do now, rather than on what went on before. That is important if we are to move policing on. That is crucial.

One of the big issues we currently have — linking the past to the present — is no different to the issues I faced when I was in the metropolitan police and Lord MacPherson's report on the murder of Stephen Lawrence was published. The first thing officers told me was that they were not even in the police organisation when Stephen was murdered, because the report was five or six years behind the crime. The world had moved on. The way murder was investigated was different. The officers felt they had been damned by something that had gone on in the past. That is not to say we should not understand what went on in the past. All I am asking is that my current officers be given an opportunity to prove how good they are. Communities can decide how good we are by assessing the interaction they have with our people now, rather than the history, which obviously needs to be dealt with in different ways.

I reassure the sub-committee that we do not turn a blind eye to violence under any circumstances. The sub-committee might want my assessment of confidence, but it should not ask me — it should ask the policing board, the district policing partnerships and the structures which are in place to hold me to account. I do not think any police organisation has as much oversight as I do. I would rather if the sub-committee asked them than asked me. If one looks at a recent survey conducted not by me but by my policing board, one sees that confidence in policing is increasing. More importantly and vitally for me, if one looks at the victims we deal with — people who have had contact with my organisation — one sees that satisfaction rates are more than 70%, which is one of the highest in the United Kingdom. That is not to be complacent, but we are keeping in contact with our victims. What is interesting is that confidence in policing in Northern Ireland increases among victims after contact with a police officer, which is actually against the trend in the rest of the United Kingdom, where confidence can drop after interaction with policing. These are people who have benefitted from our service or experienced our service. That having been said, I am not complacent. That is not to say that it is universal or that we do not face very real threats as we try to deliver policing from dissident republicans. It is not to say that everyone has confidence in what we do.

The funding is ring-fenced. We went to the Government with this funding. This was a police initiative and the Government gave us this funding — as articulated there, approximately £32 million. There is a slight complexity now because Nuala O'Loan has an absolute right to investigate any killing where police are involved or suspected of being involved. She is under equally difficult funding pressures. There is a debate around how much of that money should go to Nuala's people to look at those cases, when she has the capacity to deal with them. I will ask Mr. David Cox to deal with the last point, on the grounds that I have forgotten it and I think he has remembered it.

I would not put too much faith in that proposal, chief constable. I think it related to the international panel — I have made a note here. I saw the report. The group did not meet the Historical Enquiries Team. I think the HET was established after that report was in its preparation stages. Those cases, as I have mentioned before, will be the subject of investigation and review by the HET. They are cases which we will look at with our new structure. They do not fit particularly well within the structure that we set up — therefore, we have had to evolve. We are ultimately a victim-centred operation — we work closely with the families. It is about trying to answer their questions. Obviously, if collusion is the big question, then we will focus on it and try to find the answers for them. There is no doubt about that. We understand the hurt and grievance that were mentioned. It will be a big factor in our investigation and in answering the questions in those relevant cases.

Sir Hugh Orde

A final question was asked about facing up to it. We are trying to face up to part of it. We will face up to whatever we can within the constraints in which we find ourselves. In the real world we have a large level of demand and limited funding, but enough to make a real difference. However, not everyone is facing up to the past. If we are to give communities the confidence to feel that they have all had the right to say something about their history, we will only be part of that solution. We are not seeing other ways being brought forward to deal with history and being formalised and rationalised into some kind of framework. Looking at other ways to understand the past is simply not happening. It is naive to believe——

To what is the Chief Constable referring? Is he referring to a truth commission?

Sir Hugh Orde

That is not for me to say, but I will refer members to an interesting report that was published last week by Healing Through Remembering, which summarises a number of opportunities. In the product to deliver the HET which we submitted to the Government, and which was unpublished, I wrote that there are other issues and that whatever we do must be underpinned legally, owing to issues about conciliation. There are many ideas in the Healing Through Remembering project about other ways of doing that, but that is not for me to say. There is no off-the-shelf solution to this and it must be tailored to the particular challenges of Northern Ireland. There may be an issue with compensation and we may have to recognise the situation in some tangible way or contribute to a peace fund that tries to make sure this never happens again. Other things need to happen outside my responsibility. Our vision was that this would happen as part of that framework. We know and we are clear that we will not satisfy the needs of every family and victim. We understand that, but it does not mean it is a reason not to do this.

In Northern Ireland we seem to start from a point that it will not work and it is the wrong thing to do, but nobody has provided us with the right thing to do. We are standing up for our part of the past. It may have been helpful if the St. Andrews Agreement contained another annex in which every party signed up to dealing with the past and encouraged all those other groups outside the legitimate governments to do the same. It is no good dealing with just one bit.

Are atrocities committed in the Republic by people from Northern Ireland specifically excluded from the remit of the HET?

Sir Hugh Orde

If a crime was committed down here the investigation would be the responsibility of the Garda Commissioner. We would provide whatever information we could to him.

I am talking about a situation in which the perpetrators were in the North.

Sir Hugh Orde

If a crime was committed down here, the investigation would be led by the Garda Síochána. We are looking at cases involving disappeared persons in which the primary investigation would be led in the South because the bodies were discovered here, but Mr. Cox's people work very closely in those relationships.

I join with colleagues in welcoming Sir Hugh Orde, Mr. Cox and his team. Notwithstanding the fact that he has been unable to deal with the specific questions of some members, it is important that we recognise the significance of Sir Hugh's presence today. In fact, it is somewhat historic. In previous hearings, families who appeared before this committee specifically praised the HET and the work that is being done.

One could not but be impressed by the focus being put on families by the HET. We have listened to some very harrowing tales from families, many of whom are with us here this afternoon. What sort of strategies are in place to assess the success of the HET's engagement with the families and its work on their behalf? What has been the nature and extent of the HET's contact with the Garda Síochána in respect of the many cases that have a cross-Border dimension? We asked the Garda Commissioner whether or not he felt it would be useful to establish a mirror-image HET on this side of the Border. Does Sir Hugh have any advice for him or us on that matter?

Much of the work will inevitably involve engagement with former members of the RUC. Would Sir Hugh care to comment on, quantify or categorise the nature of the co-operation that he has enjoyed from such former members, not least those who were active during the especially contentious periods discussed in these reports?

Sir Hugh Orde

I will ask Mr. Cox to deal with strategies for families, since he leads on that, and perhaps also with former members of the RUC, although it would be fair to say that, when I was on the Stevens investigation, we met many former detectives who felt extremely frustrated because they had not enjoyed access to the whole intelligence picture at the time. They felt that, had they done so, they might have been able to do a better job on behalf of families. That is why we are seeing a willingness to co-operate on the part of senior investigating officers; they were frustrated at the time and felt that they could have done more, despite the very difficult circumstances in which they were operating.

Regarding would-be HET work in this jurisdiction, I would hate to give Commissioner Conroy advice, although I speak to him on the issue. He is very supportive of what we do, and I had a conversation with him only last week regarding one case in particular to ensure that the relationship was working at all levels. He reassured me that it was, and he is very much a man of his word.

Conditions in the Irish Republic were fundamentally different. One would have to examine the matter and form an assessment of what value might be added. We have tried to highlight that, recognising that in many cases we will never reach a judicial outcome and that many families to whom I have spoken do not seek one, although we should be clear that some do.

If the issue is state inactivity or inability to solve a crime, some want it to accept responsibility for its failings, but that is a different issue. Others wish only to know what went on, since they were fairly satisfied but were not kept up to date. There is a broad spectrum, and conditions were fundamentally different. I am not sure that the model that we have devised is instantly transferable, just as a resolution process from elsewhere in the world might not be transferable to us. It must be bespoke to the challenges that one faces.

Thank you very much for the kind remarks. I have read transcripts and seen the comments to which members refer. It is humbling to receive praise from such dignified people. The families whom we met exhibited immense dignity and tremendous sadness. It is a great challenge for us to set a strategy to help such people. It is far more complex than the traditional family liaison work that one would carry out in a current murder investigation, since there are other issues in play. There are the loss and grief, but in many cases they are overlaid with bitterness and suspicion because of families' lack of information from the police over many years.

We acknowledge that failing. However, we try to put it in the context that there were reasons for information not to be passed on in some cases. Sometimes retired officers to whom we have spoken have said that they were unable to get back to families because of the security situation and the number of cases with which they were dealing, and also because it would have been too dangerous for them and the families to return to the areas where they lived to keep them informed.

Families will make their own judgment on that, and by and large it should have been a great deal better. In many cases, owing to the deeply held views of the time, no contact was made, and we are the first officers to whom the families have been able to talk. I hope that we have been able to bring them a partial resolution by doing so. We are willing to listen, and it is noticeable that families can unburden themselves to a degree by talking to us in that first instance. I am grateful for the praise, but I stress that the role of my team is to continue to earn it by answering families' questions. That is why we are established this way. Being family-centred and working to answer those questions are our priority objectives.

Regarding former officers working with us, there have been some issues, for two reasons. Sometimes officers feel that they are being unfairly criticised and that undue attention has been paid to failings, with insufficient focus on the circumstances in which they were operating at the time. I recently met representatives of the Retired Police Officers' Association. The major issue for them was whether we would be able to include some sort of context statement in our review summary report so that we could explain to families what it was like to be policing in the RUC at the time their loved ones died and, hopefully, to get across the officers' perspectives. I agreed to undertake some work in that regard to see if we can do so. It is not about excusing things that happened; it is about explaining the circumstances involved.

On that basis, the Retired Police Officers' Association is very supportive of the HET. However, the issues brought to it by its members, which it passes on to us, relate to concerns around the role of the ombudsman and whether they would be liable, by providing us with assistance, to examination by the ombudsman. These people sometimes feel that they would be unfairly castigated because they would be judged on current standards in respect of what they did many years ago.

In many cases, the individuals to whom I refer were traumatised by the experiences they underwent. Having reached a stage where they view these matters as being in the past and are enjoying living in Northern Ireland in much better circumstances, it is difficult for them to engage with the HET, and we must accept that. In a large and increasing percentage of cases, as we explain our role and people come to understand that we are family-centred in what we do, there is a great willingness for them to engage and assist. There is also a desire on the part of the association to help the families.

I thank our guests for attending. I am delighted with their full and wholehearted engagement in this process. This is the first engagement the sub-committee has had with members of the establishment in Northern Ireland. It has been particularly helpful to us and we are grateful to our guests for coming before us. I look forward to seeing them again when the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights, possibly with the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Noel Conroy, present, engages in discussions on how policing is developing on the island as a whole.

Sir Hugh Orde stated recently that he would be delighted to address a Sinn Féin ard-fheis in order to explain matters. How valuable and important would it be for Sinn Féin to come on board in respect of the Northern Ireland Policing Board? What would that mean in the context of policing and in respect of the future of Northern Ireland?

Sir Hugh Orde

This is where I get into trouble. I have continually stated that I will speak to anyone who is interested and who wants to make a difference to policing. It seemed to me that if there is a debate going on within a group that historically has had no confidence in policing and has been extremely critical in that regard, it would be useful for me to explain both my vision for policing and the direction in which we are heading. I have yet to receive my invitation but I understand that a date has not been set. Perhaps they are waiting for that to happen.

It is critical that Sinn Féin join the Northern Ireland Policing Board. At present, I am a very accountable chief constable but I am only accountable, through that process, to the communities that are represented on the policing board. Sinn Féin would have two seats but it has chosen not to take them. Sinn Féin's presence would be important because it would give the party access to the democratic accountability process put in place by Patten, which is very good, and allow it to challenge me and make my life as difficult as it wishes on behalf of the community it represents.

There are a number of other issues that arise. When Sinn Féin joins — in my view it is a question of when rather than if — it will open the floodgates in respect of recruiting. Tragically, however, I will not be able to cater for this development. We currently recruit 440 officers each year. I have just closed a competition for 220. We recruit on two occasions each year. Our recruiting process, which we have consistently defended, operates on a 50-50 basis and is enshrined in primary legislation. A total of 7,500 people have applied to join the service. Of these 38% were Catholic and, interestingly, 37% were women. My force is currently over 20% Catholic and approximately 21% female — up from 8% and 11%, respectively. It is a quickly changing police service.

In 2010-11, the Patten recommendations will finish. At that point, the number recruited each year will decrease to approximately 100. For me, the big tragedy is that the people Sinn Féin would like to be engaged and working in policing will be excluded because I will not have positions for them. That is a real shame.

In my opinion, a number of other things will change. The way people feel able to communicate and interact with us will change. All we are seeking is an opportunity to make a difference in people's lives when, for whatever reason, they call for help. If we get that opportunity, it is the responsibility of my organisation to prove that it is up for it and is fit for purpose.

By way of reassurance in terms of our new officers, the case is similar to that experienced by Garda Commissioner Conroy in the South, in that there is significant interest in joining policing. The average age of a new officer in Northern Ireland is 30. Over a third have at least one degree. They come from a wide range of professions — teachers, nurses, milkmen. There are, sadly in a way, more from west of the Bann than from the Shankill Road. There are other issues emerging in terms of our representation which we had not even thought about in the past. One aspect is consistent. They are absolutely determined to go out there and protect the communities they are asked to serve, and I am very proud of all of them.

I thank Sir Hugh Orde, Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and Mr. David Cox, director of the Historical Enquiries Team.

That concludes the fourth day of our hearings. The sub-committee will continue now with its detailed consideration of the report and will finish its final report by 1 December as requested by the Dáil and Seanad.

On behalf of the sub-committee, I thank everyone who has made written submissions and appeared before the sub-committee. We will be in contact with the witnesses and the groups to let them know when the final report is being released and to invite them to the launch.

The sub-committee adjourned at 4 p.m. sine die.
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